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The Kumar Sangakkara Mega thread

A lot of non sense being spewed in this thread.

Here is the list for Asian Batsmen with most centuries outside SC.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=batting

Dravid has 14 tons in 126 innings.

Sanga has 6 tons in 60 innings.

Not much of a difference really if we consider the difference in number of innings played. Its not Sanga's fault that his team doesnt get to play more often with the Big Boys outside SC.

Sanga is an ATG alone for the way he has handled Ajmal throughout his career.
 
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eradicator said:
A lot of non sense being spewed in this thread.

Here is the list for Asian Batsmen with most centuries outside SC.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=batting

Dravid has 14 tons in 126 innings.

Sanga has 6 tons in 60 innings.

Not much of a difference really if we consider the difference in number of innings played. Its not Sanga's fault that his team doesnt get to play more often with the Big Boys outside SC.

Sanga is an ATG alone for the way he has handled Ajmal throughout his career.
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Yes Ajmal and there were a few lesser bowlers in Murali/Warne/Saqi also who were handled by the likes of Dravid/SRT/Laxman and co.

The few centuries and the avg.Both matter.

Take out Zimbabwe and Sanga's avg falls to 40 outside SC.

I wonder if someone can tell me the stat for how many tests SL played outside the SC and how many Sanga missed.
 
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IcedEarth said:
Love to see whingy Indians after a Sanga knock.
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Indians have had batsman who are far ahead of FTB/HTB Sanga so why will Indians whine?

And that Sanga is no ATG is a fact that many fans cutting across nations here on PP have said.
 
Indians had better batsman of course. But currently they don't have some one like Sanga. He will walk in to Indian test side over any player.
 
cricketjoshila said:
I wonder if someone can tell me the stat for how many tests SL played outside the SC and how many Sanga missed.
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Must have missed less than 10% of away tests. Missed two in Australia in two tours due to injury. Apart from that cannot recall any.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Indians have had batsman who are far ahead of FTB/HTB Sanga so why will Indians whine?

And that Sanga is no ATG is a fact that many fans cutting across nations here on PP have said.
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What will Sanga have to do to be included in the ATG List ? I think none of the players/batsmen against whom he has played average more than him, he is the joint 4th Highest Tons scorer ever and averages above 60 in both Aus/NZ.

Also has a Triple Ton, has 9 Double tons ...... 2nd only to Great Don in the history of Test Cricket.

What more do you want ?
 
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IcedEarth said:
Indians had better batsman of course. But currently they don't have some one like Sanga. He will walk in to Indian test side over any player.
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Pakistan batting talent is so mediocre, that you guys find sangakkara so special. :afridi:malik
 
eradicator said:
What will Sanga have to do to be included in the ATG List ? I think none of the players/batsmen against whom he has played average more than him, he is the joint 4th Highest Tons scorer ever and averages above 60 in both Aus/NZ.

Also has a Triple Ton, has 9 Double tons ...... 2nd only to Great Don in the history of Test Cricket.

What more do you want ?
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Again

He avgs 40 outside the SC.Thats average performace esp from someone in 2000s.

He avgs less than 40 againist 4 of the top 7 test nations,again shows his avg performance away from home.

So scoring runs at home and againist mostly minnows is a sign of his FTB and HTB ness nothing else.
 
IcedEarth said:
Indians had better batsman of course. But currently they don't have some one like Sanga. He will walk in to Indian test side over any player.
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Because the likes of Dravid/SRT/Laxman have retired in last 1 year.So nothing special if he walks in to Indian team in place of Rohit sharma right now.
 
4 of his 9 double hundreds (And his triple) are against BD/ Zimbabwe.. still a great batsman, but nowhere near being the best left hander. If averages were everything then Samaraweera would be a better batsman than Laxman
 
OP is very easy answer and answer is 'NO'. Lara , from the same era, was better and we don't need to look for any other names to answer the OP.

Indiana Jones said:
6 centuries outside Asia and still you call him the best? One of it came against Zimbabwe.
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Well, this has to be seen in context(how much he has played and how he compares) . Let's take some other great batsmen from Asia and see how well they have done when you normalize. Against Eng, Aus, WI, NZ & SA. in their backyard. [ Rounded to the nearest full number]

  • Gavaskar: 50+ avg, 15 centuries in 81 innings - A century every 5 innings
  • Tendulkar: 50+ avg, 18 centuries in 128 innings - A century every 7 innings
  • R Dravid : 50+ avg, 13 centuries in 119 innings - A century every 9 innings
  • Miandad : 45+ avg, 9 centuries in 78 innings - A century every 9 innings
  • KC Sanga: 40+ avg, 5 centuries in 58 innings - A century every 12 innings.

Clearly, Sanga has some work to do here if he wants to catch up. If he gets his average 45+ and improves centuries per innings then he will be close to Miandad in that regard.

It's pure stats which ignores any context. Some posters have pointed out that he doesn't get to play longer test series and that's a factor for sure, specially in current era when you don't get to play 4-5 practice games. Also, SA is a very strong team here which Gavaskar and Miandad didn't play but then current WI team is not the same as the old WI team. I don't know how difficult old WI in WI was when compare to SA in SA when it comes to Asian batsmen scoring runs but let's call it even.
 
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Buffet said:
I don't think Sanga is the best left had batsman in history. Sobers and Lara were better without any argument.



Well, this has to be seen in how much he has played. Let's take some other great batsmen from Asia and see how well they have done when you normalize. Against Eng, Aus, WI, NZ & SA. in their backyard. [ Rounded to the nearest full number]

  • Gavaskar: 50+ avg, 15 centuries in 81 innings - A century every 5 innings
  • Tendulkar: 50+ avg, 18 centuries in 128 innings - A century every 7 innings
  • R Dravid : 50+ avg, 13 centuries in 119 innings - A century every 9 innings
  • Miandad : 45+ avg, 9 centuries in 78 innings - A century every 9 innings
  • KC Sanga: 40+ avg, 5 centuries in 58 innings - A century every 12 innings.

Clearly, Sanga has some work to do here if he wants to catch up. If he gets his average 45+ and improves centuries per innings then he will be close to Miandad in that regard.

It's pure stats which ignore any context. Some posters have pointed out that he doesn't get to play longer test series and that's a factor for sure, specially in current era when you don't get to play 4-5 practice games. Also, SA is a very strong team here which Gavaskar and Miandad didn't play but then current WI team is not the same as the old WI team. I don't know how difficult old WI in WI was when compare to SA in SA when it comes to Asian batsmen scoring runs but let's call it even.
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Sunny Gavaskar,what a batsman.

Buffet do you think Sunny Gavaskar is the greatest opening batsman.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Sunny Gavaskar,what a batsman.

Buffet do you think Sunny Gavaskar is the greatest opening batsman.
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I don't have strong opinion on 'the greatest opener' but I rate Gavaskar among the top 2-3 openers in entire history for sure.
 
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Buffet said:
I don't have strong opinion on 'the greatest opener' but I rate Gavaskar among the top 2-3 openers in entire history for sure.
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If you have to choose 2 openers for you all time 11 who will you select?







'
 
Hitman said:
Dravid = Boring-est batman ever. A strike rate of 42.51 that too in the modern era, says it all. Even that snail Shivnarine Chanderpaul has a better SR. Dravid is an Indian 'great', but far from being an ATG, not even close to it.
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Dravid was a match winner - as simple as that. When Dravid plays a long boring innings he nearly ensures a draw for the team, and when he plays his best innings, India snatch unusual victories in unusual lands. If you don't like accumulation any time, you are not cut out for test cricket, go watch some ODIs. Again, keep in mind Dravid's batting position, number three, a very hard position to bat.
 
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For me the greatest left handed batsman to ever grace the game would be Sobers. Graeme Pollock and Lara come next and then for the 4th spot, Gilly and Sanga can fight it out. I don't know about ATG but Sanga definitely is the greatest SL batsman ever.
 
IcedEarth said:
Who is Shewag?
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this guy

1901801_1402820696639729_1954293704_n.jpg
 
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Is Kumar Sangakkara the greatest left handed batsman in Test Cricket ever?

cricketjoshila said:
Interesting choice indeed.I though all Saffers rated Barry Richards as the best opener from SA.
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Some do, but I prefer to go with actual performances. And that is SA have never lost a match where Smith scored a hundred.
 
Jo_Don said:
Some do, but I prefer to go with actual performances. And that is SA have never lost a match where Smith scored a hundred.
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Its a travesty that cricket never saw the full potential of Graeme Pollock,Barry Richards,Peter Pollock and Mike Proctor.
 
sanga is clever. He deliberately lost his wicket so his high average score can be accepted with that massive knock. I say that because I heard scores of 300+ and still remaining not out are not accepted as part of your overall average for some strange reason.
 
Is Kumar Sangakkara the greatest left handed batsman in Test Cricket ever?

cricketjoshila said:
For someone who played in 2000s 37 is a poor return.

.If you will look he has played only 28 tests outside home as a specialist batsman and thats only 1/4th of his total tests and half of his over seas record to call him an ATG based on that is wrong.
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Lankans don't play as many overseas tests as India or even Pak before 2009 that's hardly Sangas fault Lankans aren't a team that AUS ENG SA NZ fans really want to see so they get shorter tours
 
Is Kumar Sangakkara the greatest left handed batsman in Test Cricket ever?

Btw Sanga himself said after being interviewed after his innings today that he doesn't class himself in Lara's league when asked if he's the best Left hander of all time he said Lara was on another level to him
 
Buffet said:
OP is very easy answer and answer is 'NO'. Lara , from the same era, was better and we don't need to look for any other names to answer the OP.



Well, this has to be seen in context(how much he has played and how he compares) . Let's take some other great batsmen from Asia and see how well they have done when you normalize. Against Eng, Aus, WI, NZ & SA. in their backyard. [ Rounded to the nearest full number]

  • Gavaskar: 50+ avg, 15 centuries in 81 innings - A century every 5 innings
  • Tendulkar: 50+ avg, 18 centuries in 128 innings - A century every 7 innings
  • R Dravid : 50+ avg, 13 centuries in 119 innings - A century every 9 innings
  • Miandad : 45+ avg, 9 centuries in 78 innings - A century every 9 innings
  • KC Sanga: 40+ avg, 5 centuries in 58 innings - A century every 12 innings.

Clearly, Sanga has some work to do here if he wants to catch up. If he gets his average 45+ and improves centuries per innings then he will be close to Miandad in that regard.

It's pure stats which ignores any context. Some posters have pointed out that he doesn't get to play longer test series and that's a factor for sure, specially in current era when you don't get to play 4-5 practice games. Also, SA is a very strong team here which Gavaskar and Miandad didn't play but then current WI team is not the same as the old WI team. I don't know how difficult old WI in WI was when compare to SA in SA when it comes to Asian batsmen scoring runs but let's call it even.
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I don't think it would be fair to compare Sanga's overall numbers against that of specialist bats. As I have posted earlier on here his numbers as a specialist bat are right up there with the best of them.

Sanga outside SC - Away in SA, Eng, Aus, NZ and WI

is designated keeper
2001-2008
13 Tests/ 25 Innings
Ave 26
0 100s and 3 50s

is not keeper
2000-2012
17 Tests/ 33 Innings
Ave 53
5 100s (98 and a 192 to go with it) and 10 50s


As a specialist bat he has scored a century every 6.6 innings in those places.
 
SL_Fan said:
I don't think it would be fair to compare Sanga's overall numbers against that of specialist bats. As I have posted earlier on here his numbers as a specialist bat are right up there with the best of them.
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A good point but he has a much smaller sample size as of now if you want to take only that part. He needs to play around 30-35 tests and then sample size as a pure batsman will be a decent one. Problem is SL gets very few tests in each series. I think the next Eng series has only 2 tests as well.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Its not about who I would rather watch.

Wasn't Gavaskar an ATG batsman?

Can anyone in the world deny that?

Similarly, Dravid and Kallis will be regarded as ATG batsman.

By the way, Dravid (for all his weakness in Aus) won us 2 matches in Aus.

How many did Sachin (for all his greatness) win us in Aus?
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You mean to say Dravid took 20 wickets in both those matches apart from scoring those runs? The 1999 Tour to Australia, Sachin played the lone warrior and won the MOS, Dravid flopped miserably against that deadly attack. Who is to be blamed for the series loss?

And regarding those 2 wins, the second one was a laughable innings, one of his worst ever (Isuppose he scored 91). Dropped at slips at 10, struggled like anything during the complete innings, took hell lot of time just to score his runs with no intention of raising the tempo. Sachin's 71 in that innings was 10 times better, played his strokes, dominated the attack, and raised the much needed tempo.
 
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I think Saeed Anwar is better than Sanga as a lefty from Subco and ofcourse Lara is far better than both.
 
Indians disrespecting Dravid is always a depressing sight.

Groan.
 
James said:
Indians disrespecting Dravid is always a depressing sight.

Groan.
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eden, headingley, adelaide , sabina park and numerous others.... the man behind India's biggest away victories.. but then again :sachin
 
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The case for Sangakkara's greatness - Andrew Fidel Fernando.

Kumar Sangakkara approached his maiden triple-hundred at a sprint. When the eighth wicket fell, he had been on 253 - in danger of being stranded short of a milestone he later admitted he desired, if only to "be part of the club". The team's goals happily aligned with his own in the late afternoon, lighting a fire underneath his feet. He sped forward from the crease often, with brutal intent.

His final 52-runs as a non-member of the 300-club were walloped in 30 balls, but although Sangakkara was still mid-frenzy when he passed the milestone, his celebrations were remarkably collected. A hand-grasp with his partner followed the raising of both arms, before the helmet came off, briefly. Within 90 seconds, he was taking guard again.

Perhaps he knew that he had not unlocked anything new in himself in the course of his epic. There were few thorny periods to overcome, and an already-battered opposition had been further hamstrung by an injury to a frontline bowler, as well as their captain and wicketkeeper. His team could not have claimed their commanding position without him, but at a personal level, perhaps his greatest achievements on Wednesday were his statistical harvests.

Sangakkara became the quickest man to 11,000 runs on Wednesday. Though outside Sri Lanka he is rarely spoken of in the same breath as the modern batting greats, that discussion is now long overdue.

The first port of call for any such exercise is his average. At a career-high 57.83, he comfortably outstrips Sachin Tendulkar, Brian Lara and Ricky Ponting, and is better than Jacques Kallis by more than two runs. Of the seven batsmen that boast better averages (qualification: 2000 career runs), Ken Barrington had the most recent career, from 1955 to 1968. None of the men above him have scored 8000 runs, nor played more than 90 Tests. The debate then moves to how many of Sangakkara's runs mean little? He is by far Bangladesh's lead tormentor with the bat, having struck 1711 runs against them - over 15% of his career total. He has not gone easy on Zimbabwe in six innings either, averaging 89.88.

To dismiss all those runs is unwise, particularly in light of this Chittagong innings, where only one other Sri Lanka batsman passed 50 and no one else reached triple figures. But for the sake of argument, Sangakkara has impressive numbers even if those teams are omitted. Of batsmen who have played in the last 15 years (qualification: 2000 runs), only Kallis has a better average than Sangakkara's 52.68, and that only 0.30 higher. If the last 30 years are considered, Javed Miandad is the only other cricketer to join Kallis above Sangakkara on that list.

A charge often leveled at Sri Lanka batsmen is that they make their runs on flat home pitches. Galle's dry surface, however, is often as stiff a test of batting technique as any track in the world, and the P Sara Oval is regularly a result-venue. Still, omitting draws, and only counting matches among the top eight nations, Sangakkara's figures hold up. Of the seven modern batsmen who have better averages in wins or losses, four - Ponting, Steve Waugh, Adam Gilchrist and Damien Martyn - are from the legendary Australia team. The remaining three are AB de Villiers and Pakistan's Inzamam-ul-Haq and Saeed Anwar. Tendulkar and Lara both rank well below Sangakkara.

His away record against the top-eight teams does not place him as highly in the pantheon, but at 45.37, he is hardly liability outside Sri Lanka. Tendulkar, Rahul Dravid, Lara and Kallis have better away averages, alongside a host of other modern players, but Sangakkara's returns are marginally better than Ponting's.

Where Sangakkara sets himself apart from Lara, Ponting and Tendulkar in particular, and veers towards all-time greatness, is when his records as a specialist batsman are separated from his career as a wicketkeeper-batsman. Sangakkara has not been the designated keeper for 61% of his 122-Test career, and in those matches, he has averaged 69.55. Only Don Bradman sits above him, and he is almost five clear of the next man. Clyde Walcott surpasses Sangakkara if Bangladesh and Zimbabwe are again stricken from his record, but he drops only that one place, retaining an average of 61.41. The next remotely modern batsman is Miandad, who scored his runs at 53.30.

Sangakkara has hundreds against and in every Test nation, but perhaps there are more gaps in his record than the other modern greats. He averages 30.58 in England - a statistic he will hope to partially rectify in two Tests there in June. His average of 36.50 in India will likely remain at retirement, as will his 35.75 in South Africa. Unlike Ponting, Tendulkar and Lara, he was also incapable of demoralising attacks for much of his career - though recently that has begun to change. It is perhaps for this reason he does not place himself in the same realm as batting hero Brian Lara, whose double-century count he matched.

"I grew up watching and idolising sir Vivian Richards," Sangakkara said. "Then Brian Lara came along and he was magical to watch so I am pretty happy to have equalled him in some kind of way. But I don't think I will equal him as a batsman, because I think he is on a completely different level to most of the batsmen I have seen.

"I think I have surpassed him in very little. I may be fastest to 11,000 or whatever, but I don't think I compare myself to him at all. There is no use of comparing myself to him. To me he is beyond reach."


Whatever Sangakkara's own view, consistency is its own form of dominance. As he reaps the numerical rewards of his 14-year toil, it is time the wider cricket world appreciated his stature.



http://www.espncricinfo.com/bangladesh-v-sri-lanka-2013-14/content/story/716635.html
 
vandokkum said:
eden - Good knock against a great attack. But Laxman and Harbhajan played an equally important part. (Got full support of the bowlers).

headingley - Dravid scored 140+, Sachin scored 193, Ganguly scored some 120+ (Got full support of the whole team)

adelaide - No McGrath and Warne, Andy Bichel headed the attack. Agarkar took 6 wickets out of nowhere (Got full support of the bowlers).

sabina park - Good innings (Got full support of the bowlers)

and numerous others (please mention).... the man behind India's biggest away victories.. but then again :sachin
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Agreed India won those matches, but what would have been the results if the bowlers didn't perform? Was he the sole reason for those wins? What's the difference between those innings and some played by other Indian batsmen overseas except that in Dravid's case he was lucky to get the support of the bowlers who are usually worthless most of the time.

All a batsman can do is score runs, how can he ensure the win of his team without the support of his bowlers? And when a batsman scores a century his job is done, he played his role perfectly. Winning the match depends on multiple other facts beyond the control of that batsman.
 
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Hitman said:
Agreed India won those matches, but what would have been the results if the bowlers didn't perform? Was he the sole reason for those wins? What's the difference between those innings and some played by other Indian batsmen overseas except that in Dravid's case he was lucky to get the support of the bowlers who are usually worthless most of the time.

All a batsman can do is score runs, how can he ensure the win of his team without the support of his bowlers? And when a batsman scores a century his job is done, he played his role perfectly. Winning the match depends on multiple other facts beyond the control of that batsman.
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I am sure you would have been of a different opinion if those knocks were played by a certain player
 
vandokkum said:
I am sure you would have been of a different opinion if those knocks were played by a certain player
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Not really. I rate an innings according to it's merits, what type of attack it was played against, where it was played .... not whether it came in a win or not. Brian Lara holds the world record of scoring maximum number of Test hundreds in loses, that doesn't diminish his greatness.
 
The greatest left hand batsmen of all time is Imran Farhat. Close thread! Lol! Lara pings it for me
 
cricketjoshila said:
Its a travesty that cricket never saw the full potential of Graeme Pollock,Barry Richards,Peter Pollock and Mike Proctor.
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If I am not mistaken, the WI 2nd team, or the rebel team gave run for their money at home. If Wi 2nd XI can draw "Test" series and win LO series against the above lot, then it says it's own story how mighty had been WI in that era.
 
NO

Sobers and Lara were better batsmen than him
 
Is Kumar Sangakkara an ATG?

He averages 58 from 122 test matches...I can't recall a player in the last 30 years with an average as high. Against all teams, he averages over 48, except against Australia against whom he averages 42 and England against whom he averages 38. He averages 62 at home and 52 away. No one can doubt his ability to dominate bowlers, and no one can dispute that he is one of the most pleasing strokemakers to watch. Yet I have never heard of Sangakkara mentioned as an ATG. I think he is, and with the retirements of Tendulkar and Kallis, perhaps the last ATG batsman left in the game.
 
I think Sanga is a fantastic test bat but i seen a lot of Brian Lara and ill tell you he was better in my eyes.

Lara was just a freak.
 
He's probably up there at the moment but the greatest left hander of all time has yet to be exposed to this world ... will keep you fellas posted :afridi
 
He is definitely among the best. But I think, there are at least 5 lefties better than him. In my order

Lara, Sobers, G Pollock, A Border & Neil Hervey. I think, he is in the same level of Gower, Lawry, Lyod, Saeed, Hayden, Gilly & Chanderpaul. Played in an era with much favorable batting conditions & with lot of matches against ZIM & BD. I am not sure if he averages over 50, if we take out scores against ZIM & BD from his stats. But he is definitely among the the top 2/3 eye catching lefties.
 
Justcrazy said:
^^^

Border is under rated here a lot. He was very good Test Player.
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Because most here don't know the history of AUS cricket in between the great era of 70s (Chappels, DK, Marsh, Thommo, Pascoe, Aldermann, Lawson, Huges, Walters) & the great team of 90s on wards. Between the period of 1983-84 to '89 AB almost single hanedly carried the young Aussie batting. Some of his innings in 83-84 WI tour or '85 Ashes were outstanding rearguard action. He was easily a better crisis man than most batsmen (Both hand) ever.
 
Away from the subcontinent the records of Tamim Iqbal and Kumar Sangakkara are as follows:

1)2207 runs@40.8, 5 centuries in 58 innings
2)793 runs@46.65, 3 centuries in 17 innings

I'll let you decide which stats belong to Tamim and which stats are the left handed Bradman's.
 
Unlike, Sachin, Ponting and Lara who were already expected to become a star while playing school cricekt, Sangakkara's story was a bit different.

Sangakkara worked hard to be where he is now. He wasn't even a good cricket street cricketer, then he picked up hardball cricket at 16. In Sri Lanka, many cricketers are discovered at very young age, financial issues do not really affect you from becoming a cricketer since many schools gets government funding, cricket is accessible to anyone. Mahela, Dilshan, Samaraweera, Chandimal, Maharoof were considered to become a national regular while playing school cricket. Sangakkara was no where near the eyes of news papers. Sangakkara was still changing his grip, stance at beginning of his intl. career. Its an achievement to be here where his now. Its different when you are famous, well known from very young age, but to to come out of nowhere, break the barriers its different. Imagine your self in his position.

Look at the way how he bats in his debut series
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppCVV2FfHu8
 
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I would have thought, that PakPassion being a forum mostly comprised of fans of the Pakistani cricket team, would be a place where Sangakkara would be a legendary figure, since he has piled on the runs against Pakistan on so many occasions.

Anyway, there is far too much underrating of subcontinental performances. I don't deny that for an Asian cricketer, the gold standard is how well they do outside Asia; but that is no reason to shame guys like Sangakkara, Sehwag, Jayawardene and others who do especially well at home. If batting within the subcontinent is so easy then why doesn't Ricky Ponting average 500 in India? A test match run is a test match run, I don't care if it's scored on a Delhi dustbowl or a Headingley greentop.

soso_killer said:
Cook, Smith and Chanderpaul are better than him.
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Cook? No chance. Cook has dabbed and chased after wide filth his entire career, except for a two year purple patch. He is extremely overrated, and I doubt he'll finish his career with an average above 45. Take those two years out and I expect his average would be mid-30s. He's basically :hafeez, except he played well for a short period of time.

I would say Sangakkara is around the same level as Smith and a little below Chanderpaul, who I consider to be better than both as he is still producing crazy numbers despite being almost 40.
 
Came across this one the other day. Pretty decent analysis of things.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/content/story/718821.html

Which batsmen thrive against the best bowlers?

Kartikeya Date |

Kumar Sangakkara made a triple-hundred and a hundred in the same Test in Chittagong recently. In the last 12 months, Sri Lanka have played four Tests against Bangladesh. In these, Sangakkara has scored 142, 105, 139, 55, 75, 319 and 105. In his last 12 Tests against one of the other seven top Test-playing teams, Sangakkara averages 48. This is a broader phenomenon in Test cricket. Bangladesh and Zimbabwe have conceded runs at an impressive rate to the world's top batsmen. Players from the subcontinent play these two teams more often than players from Australia or England.

A few weeks ago I described a method to determine the bowling and batting strength of a Test team. I have since found that a simpler method of measuring bowling strength is similarly correlated with Test results. I describe it briefly below using the example of India's first innings in the Cape Town Test of 2011. This method could be improved substantially with detailed ball-by-ball data, but since this data is not available for all Tests, I use innings-level data. RELATED LINKSBlogs: A measure for the strength of a Test team Players/Officials: Kumar Sangakkara | Sachin Tendulkar | Dale Steyn | Ricky Ponting | Jacques Kallis | Brian Lara | Mahela Jayawardene

Sachin Tendulkar made 146 in this Test in Cape Town and had a memorable battle with Dale Steyn. But South Africa's bowling attack as a whole was not particularly strong. The table below shows the calculation of bowling strength for the South African attack. The individual averages are the bowler's averages at the start of the Test innings. Tendulkar made 123 in 231 balls against Morkel, Tsotsobe and Harris, and 23 in 83 against Steyn. Steyn bowled 120 balls while Tendulkar was at the wicket. Tendulkar faced 83 of those. In the other 37, Steyn took three wickets.

178703.jpg


Tendulkar made 169 at the same ground in 1997 against a much stronger all-round attack (Donald, Pollock, McMillan, Cronje, Klusener and Adams) that had a bowling strength of 26.1.

The bowling strength for a particular team innings is simply the weighted average of each bowler in a bowling line-up at the start of the said innings. Weights are assigned according to the share of the bowling for each bowler in this innings. For example, Steyn bowled about 26% of overs in that Indian first innings in Cape Town, Tsotsobe bowled 22% while Morkel and Harris bowled 22% each. Kallis, who was part of the South African XI for that Test, did not bowl at all in this innings.

I've used this method to calculate the bowling strength for all team Test innings. The median bowling strength for a Test innings from 1877 to 2014 (including the Sydney Test of the 2013-14 Ashes) is 31.54. Bowlers on Test debut are assigned the median figure.

In this, the first of a series of posts, I look at all batsmen who have made at least 10,000 Test runs and divide their careers into innings where the opposition bowling was better than the median, and innings where the opposition bowling was worse than the median. I also do the same for these players' home and away Test records.

For the purpose of this post, I will designate attacks with bowling strength better than the median as strong attacks and the rest as weak attacks. One final point to be noted about this method of determining the strength of a bowling attack: an attack including the exact same bowlers can have two different strength measures in different Tests. For example, a South African attack playing in Sri Lanka, where Nicky Boje would bowl a lot of overs, would have a weaker strength measure than the same attack bowling in South Africa, where Boje's share of the bowling would be much smaller.

Eleven batsmen have scored at least 10,000 Test runs as of January 2014. Sunil Gavaskar and Allan Border, the first two players to reach this milestone, played 49% and 45% of their innings against strong attacks. In contrast, Ricky Ponting and Jacques Kallis played 32% and 33% of their innings against strong attacks.

It is no surprise that top batsmen perform strongly against weaker attacks. Some more so than others, though. For Brian Lara and Tendulkar the difference in their performance against stronger attacks and weaker attacks is about 7 runs per innings. For Mahela Jayawardene, it is about 22 runs. For Jacques Kallis, it is 20 runs. For Ponting, Border and Rahul Dravid, it is about 13 runs.

178705.jpg


Only Tendulkar, Border, Sangakkara and Steve Waugh average over 50 against strong attacks away from home. Jayawardene has struggled against such bowling, averaging only 27 over 49 innings, scoring one century. Ponting made eight centuries in 42 innings against strong attacks away from home, but averaged only 44. These innings constituted 14% of Ponting's innings in Tests. By contrast, Lara played 30% of his Test innings against strong attacks away from home. Sangakkara has built an imposing record against such attacks. Border averaged higher than 50 despite making only five centuries in 52 innings against such attacks.

178707.jpg


In home Tests, only Lara and Sangakkara average more than 50 against strong attacks, while Kallis, Border and Waugh average less than 40. Lara has done equally well against strong and weak attacks in Tests at home. Tendulkar's record against strong attacks in India is his worst performance of the six categories shown in this post. He averages a mere 46.

178709.jpg


Over the past 15 years or so, we often heard how Dravid was a more dependable player than Tendulkar. A similar observation was often made about Gundappa Viswanath. Observations have also been made about Ponting and Kallis being better players than Tendulkar or Lara.

These figures suggest, fairly clearly in my view, that Tendulkar and Lara were superior all-round Test players compared to all the others mentioned in this list. They also suggest that Sangakkara is a freak of nature whose bullying of the minnows only turns a great Test record into a freakishly brilliant one. The same cannot be said of his great friend Jayawardene, whose bullying of the minnows turns a very good record into a great one. Dravid, Ponting and Kallis were contemporaries. Each played about 250 Test innings. Yet Dravid played about 15 more innings against strong attacks compared to Kallis and Ponting.

These are some of the things that can be studied in these charts. If you would like to see comparisons of specific batsmen, please propose groups of such batsmen in the comments below. I will present analyses in my next post.
 
Ponting was unfortunate in that there wasn't really any other strong attack going round when he was at his peak, so he never had a chance to prove himself against the best, when he was at his best.

Who were the best non-Australian bowlers around the mid-2000s? Pollock, Ntini, Kumble, Murali, Akthar... that's all I can think of. Guys that blew hot and cold like Harmison and Flintoff don't really count.
 
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Those claiming Sangakkara to be better than Lara are likely to be too young to have watched Lara in his prime.
In football as well, you get younger people thinking Messi/Ronaldo are "far better" than Zidane/Old Ronaldo
 
There's no chance Sangakkara, or any left hander, is better than Lara.
 
SL_Fan said:
Came across this one the other day. Pretty decent analysis of things.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/content/story/718821.html

Which batsmen thrive against the best bowlers?

Kartikeya Date |

Kumar Sangakkara made a triple-hundred and a hundred in the same Test in Chittagong recently. In the last 12 months, Sri Lanka have played four Tests against Bangladesh. In these, Sangakkara has scored 142, 105, 139, 55, 75, 319 and 105. In his last 12 Tests against one of the other seven top Test-playing teams, Sangakkara averages 48. This is a broader phenomenon in Test cricket. Bangladesh and Zimbabwe have conceded runs at an impressive rate to the world's top batsmen. Players from the subcontinent play these two teams more often than players from Australia or England.

A few weeks ago I described a method to determine the bowling and batting strength of a Test team. I have since found that a simpler method of measuring bowling strength is similarly correlated with Test results. I describe it briefly below using the example of India's first innings in the Cape Town Test of 2011. This method could be improved substantially with detailed ball-by-ball data, but since this data is not available for all Tests, I use innings-level data. RELATED LINKSBlogs: A measure for the strength of a Test team Players/Officials: Kumar Sangakkara | Sachin Tendulkar | Dale Steyn | Ricky Ponting | Jacques Kallis | Brian Lara | Mahela Jayawardene

Sachin Tendulkar made 146 in this Test in Cape Town and had a memorable battle with Dale Steyn. But South Africa's bowling attack as a whole was not particularly strong. The table below shows the calculation of bowling strength for the South African attack. The individual averages are the bowler's averages at the start of the Test innings. Tendulkar made 123 in 231 balls against Morkel, Tsotsobe and Harris, and 23 in 83 against Steyn. Steyn bowled 120 balls while Tendulkar was at the wicket. Tendulkar faced 83 of those. In the other 37, Steyn took three wickets.

178703.jpg


Tendulkar made 169 at the same ground in 1997 against a much stronger all-round attack (Donald, Pollock, McMillan, Cronje, Klusener and Adams) that had a bowling strength of 26.1.

The bowling strength for a particular team innings is simply the weighted average of each bowler in a bowling line-up at the start of the said innings. Weights are assigned according to the share of the bowling for each bowler in this innings. For example, Steyn bowled about 26% of overs in that Indian first innings in Cape Town, Tsotsobe bowled 22% while Morkel and Harris bowled 22% each. Kallis, who was part of the South African XI for that Test, did not bowl at all in this innings.

I've used this method to calculate the bowling strength for all team Test innings. The median bowling strength for a Test innings from 1877 to 2014 (including the Sydney Test of the 2013-14 Ashes) is 31.54. Bowlers on Test debut are assigned the median figure.

In this, the first of a series of posts, I look at all batsmen who have made at least 10,000 Test runs and divide their careers into innings where the opposition bowling was better than the median, and innings where the opposition bowling was worse than the median. I also do the same for these players' home and away Test records.

For the purpose of this post, I will designate attacks with bowling strength better than the median as strong attacks and the rest as weak attacks. One final point to be noted about this method of determining the strength of a bowling attack: an attack including the exact same bowlers can have two different strength measures in different Tests. For example, a South African attack playing in Sri Lanka, where Nicky Boje would bowl a lot of overs, would have a weaker strength measure than the same attack bowling in South Africa, where Boje's share of the bowling would be much smaller.

Eleven batsmen have scored at least 10,000 Test runs as of January 2014. Sunil Gavaskar and Allan Border, the first two players to reach this milestone, played 49% and 45% of their innings against strong attacks. In contrast, Ricky Ponting and Jacques Kallis played 32% and 33% of their innings against strong attacks.

It is no surprise that top batsmen perform strongly against weaker attacks. Some more so than others, though. For Brian Lara and Tendulkar the difference in their performance against stronger attacks and weaker attacks is about 7 runs per innings. For Mahela Jayawardene, it is about 22 runs. For Jacques Kallis, it is 20 runs. For Ponting, Border and Rahul Dravid, it is about 13 runs.

178705.jpg


Only Tendulkar, Border, Sangakkara and Steve Waugh average over 50 against strong attacks away from home. Jayawardene has struggled against such bowling, averaging only 27 over 49 innings, scoring one century. Ponting made eight centuries in 42 innings against strong attacks away from home, but averaged only 44. These innings constituted 14% of Ponting's innings in Tests. By contrast, Lara played 30% of his Test innings against strong attacks away from home. Sangakkara has built an imposing record against such attacks. Border averaged higher than 50 despite making only five centuries in 52 innings against such attacks.

178707.jpg


In home Tests, only Lara and Sangakkara average more than 50 against strong attacks, while Kallis, Border and Waugh average less than 40. Lara has done equally well against strong and weak attacks in Tests at home. Tendulkar's record against strong attacks in India is his worst performance of the six categories shown in this post. He averages a mere 46.

178709.jpg


Over the past 15 years or so, we often heard how Dravid was a more dependable player than Tendulkar. A similar observation was often made about Gundappa Viswanath. Observations have also been made about Ponting and Kallis being better players than Tendulkar or Lara.

These figures suggest, fairly clearly in my view, that Tendulkar and Lara were superior all-round Test players compared to all the others mentioned in this list. They also suggest that Sangakkara is a freak of nature whose bullying of the minnows only turns a great Test record into a freakishly brilliant one. The same cannot be said of his great friend Jayawardene, whose bullying of the minnows turns a very good record into a great one. Dravid, Ponting and Kallis were contemporaries. Each played about 250 Test innings. Yet Dravid played about 15 more innings against strong attacks compared to Kallis and Ponting.

These are some of the things that can be studied in these charts. If you would like to see comparisons of specific batsmen, please propose groups of such batsmen in the comments below. I will present analyses in my next post.
Click to expand...

This article definitely has a point though. Not just a minnow will have a poor bowling unit but the best teams can sometimes play or rest average bowlers, which we don't even debate about.

This article shows that Sangakkara is the only batsman who averages 50+(56) against better bowling unit, in someway. I cant believe there's no one above 50 overall against a reasonable bowling unit. Does that mean everyone is a bully of weak bowling?
 
Indians are insecure because they know Sangakkara is better their overrated batsmen

All these Indians who rates VVS , Smith , Cook , Gambir etc over Sanga are just jealous of the fact that Sanga has a superior Test record than Sachin and Dravid
 
114 , 147 , 68 and 78 so far and Indian fans are like still can`t score in England !

All these are in Early Summer..Unlike Indian batsmen , Sanga doesn`t get to play 4,5 tests in proper English summer

Now that Sanga scored runs in England all that these Sanga haters can say is that he has`nt scored loads in West Indies and SA..If he scored runs in West Indies obviously these fans will say WI is a minnow and Sanga is a minnw basher for scoring runs vs them...Against SA we all know that the only reason that Sanga averages 38 (which still isn`t bad) because he played a series there as wk batsmen when he was really young and had a tough time ! When he toured their in his prime he scored a 100 and won the match for SL
 
The greatest left-handed minnow basher for sure. :sanga

Maybe some day.. when he plays some magical knocks.. he may be counted among the ATGs. But to call him best leftie ever is an insult to Lara and old timers.
 
shean1990 said:
Indians are insecure because they know Sangakkara is better their overrated batsmen

All these Indians who rates VVS , Smith , Cook , Gambir etc over Sanga are just jealous of the fact that Sanga has a superior Test record than Sachin and Dravid
Click to expand...



shean1990 said:
114 , 147 , 68 and 78 so far and Indian fans are like still can`t score in England !

All these are in Early Summer..Unlike Indian batsmen , Sanga doesn`t get to play 4,5 tests in proper English summer
Click to expand...


Yeah ofcoz.. Bashing Indians on Pakpassion gets you bonus credibility points, doesn't it. :sanga

But hey.. atleast you Lankans are consistant in picking soft targets. :shakib
 
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He is not even the greatest left handed wicketkeeper/batsman the world has ever seen.
 
Overall Sachin is better than Sangakkara. However Sangakkara in the last 5 years has been better than sachin have ever been.
 
There's a reason Viv richard ranks higher than Kallis as a batsman (rightly so) regardless of Kallis having significantly better stats, cricket is not played on a calculator. Gilchrist while averaging under 50 has played many more great innings than players averaging over 50, same with Lara. No disrespect to Sangakkara who will obviously go down as ATG.
 
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