Ab Fan
Senior Test Player
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2015
- Runs
- 28,177
And he has smashed 200 now.
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This is what I am worried about. I’m tired of being let down by Shaheen, Abbas and Naseem not because I think they are rubbish, but I just dont think they have the game plan to work against world class batsmen. Same goes for our ODI bowling attack.
I would dearly like Waqar Younis to one day publish some of his coaching plans, the data that he uses when he is working on bowlers so that we can see what and how he does in order to prepare our bowlers. I have a feeling that he just makes things up according to his own experience as a fast bowler in the 90s. I really am not sure that his strategies are having the desired affect on the current set of players, or he does not know how to get the best out of their strengths.
Either they are hoping to bowl some kind of magic balls to a player like Kane and see him back in the hut, or they do some sincere homework and look to create field settings that have troubled him in the past. What kind of bowlers have done well against him and where have they looked to bowl at him etc. I am not very hopeful with our current management
Watching Kane Williamson bat is one of life's great pleasures.
Root only scores harmless 50s. He has stats but absolutely no impact. His 50s in Aus and Eng were harmless. Kane got a couple of big tons in AusOnly when he is batting at home or in UAE.
Let’s see how does in Australia, India, England, South Africa and Sri Lanka in the future. So far he has been completely ordinary in those places.
He gets way too much leniency from the fans on this forum compared to other batsmen of his generation who are never allowed to fail.
Only when he is batting at home or in UAE.
Let’s see how does in Australia, India, England, South Africa and Sri Lanka in the future. So far he has been completely ordinary in those places.
He gets way too much leniency from the fans on this forum compared to other batsmen of his generation who are never allowed to fail.
Root only scores harmless 50s. He has stats but absolutely no impact. His 50s in Aus and Eng were harmless. Kane got a couple of big tons in Aus
what's wrong with his average in Australia? Think its perfectly fine, 2 centuries in 7 matches, average of 43. In Lanka, he has played 4 matches, won 2 of those and scored a big century in one of the won matches.
He is very inconsistent in those countries and has failed apart from the innings where he has scored in three figures.
Averages of 43 in Australia, 35 in India, 30 in England, 21 in South Africa and 26 in Sri Lanka are not remotely good enough for a batsman of his talent, technique and status.
When he fails in these countries he barely scores, and those failures heavily contribute to New Zealand losing in these countries.
In spite of being in a slump for 2-3 years, Root’s away average is still better and he averages more than him in all these countries. That clearly illustrates how much better Root was compared to Williamson during Root’s best years.
If an Indian, Australian or English batsmen would produce the numbers that Williamson has in 4-5 major countries, he will get blasted like no tomorrow.
I guess it is part and parcel of playing for New Zealand. You will not get praised as much as players from India, Australia, England or Pakistan, but you will also not get criticized as much.
In Test cricket, if we talk about the big 4, Smith is clearly number 1 and Kohli is clearly number 2. When it comes to Root and Williamson, if we talk purely current form than Williamson is better than Root at the moment for sure.
However, if we take their entire careers to date into consideration, then Root is significantly better than Williamson.
From 2014 to 2017, Root was extremely consistent (almost averaged 57 at one point) and was running Smith and Kohli close.
On the other hand, Williamson has never scaled those heights and has never got close to Smith and Kohli.
Williamson is a great player, one of the best around. He is also a brilliant ambassador for the game and a good captain, but people have the tendency to overrate his batting a bit and mask and ignore his failures because of the soft spot that they have for him and his team.
Kane is a brilliant player under pressure and better than Root. His hundred Vs Pakistan in UAE or his hundred against SA four years ago at home when SA were a strong team are absolutely masterclass performances helping his team win games which in past they would lose from there.
His batting and captaincy both were the reasons why he was given the man of the series award, for being able to push the team beyond their potential and lose the game only by some absurd boundary rule playing against England in England in the finals.
As for Root, he simply don't have the ruthlessness to win the games the way Smith and Kohli and to an extent Kane does. That 200 he scored on a flat deck could have been in winning cause but he batted slowly and conservatively and that costed his team a win. Often when the game is on line, it is Ben Stokes who overshadowed him with the bat and is seen as bigger wicket for the opposition.
Kane is a brilliant player under pressure and better than Root. His hundred Vs Pakistan in UAE or his hundred against SA four years ago at home when SA were a strong team are absolutely masterclass performances helping his team win games which in past they would lose from there.
His batting and captaincy both were the reasons why he was given the man of the series award, for being able to push the team beyond their potential and lose the game only by some absurd boundary rule playing against England in England in the finals.
As for Root, he simply don't have the ruthlessness to win the games the way Smith and Kohli and to an extent Kane does. That 200 he scored on a flat deck could have been in winning cause but he batted slowly and conservatively and that costed his team a win. Often when the game is on line, it is Ben Stokes who overshadowed him with the bat and is seen as bigger wicket for the opposition.
Neither did Smith/Kohli/Root
so they must not be better too
The problem with using the “performs under pressure” argument is that people apply it selectively and conveniently.
Williamson’s average record in several countries proves that he doesn’t always perform under pressure because New Zealand are regularly under the pump in countries like Australia, India, England, South Africa and even Sri Lanka and he has largely failed to perform in these countries.
On the other contrary, one can argue that Root’s 254 against Pakistan at Old Trafford was a pressure innings because England were 1-0 down.
One can argue that a Man of the Series performance in the 2015 Ashes was an exhibition of performing under pressure.
In the first Test, England were 40/3 before Root scored 134 at a SR of 80+ against Starc, Johnson and Hazlewood.
He pretty much single-handedly won the third Test in South Africa in 2016 with a century against a rampant Rabada and Morkel.
On his debut as Test captain in 2017, he scored 190 at a SR of 80+ when England were 70/4 against a rampant Rabada, Philander and Morkel to set up a win for England.
In 2018, his counter-attacking 124 in the second innings in Sri Lanka was also a pressure innings because Sri Lanka had a sizable first innings lead and England were 100/4 in the second innings. His hundred won the game for England as they won by 50 odd runs.
The 226 in New Zealand last December was also a pressure innings as it saved England from a whitewash and they were 20/2 when he arrived to the crease.
It is a myth that Root has only scored soft runs and hasn’t performed under pressure. It is also a myth that Williamson is a better pressure.
As I said, people use different standards to judge Williamson than they do to judge Root and Kohli, and that is why they give Williamson far more leniency.
As far as the 2019 World Cup is concerned, there is absolutely no way he deserved the player of the tournament ahead of Stokes.
Stokes was robbed and it was a farce. He produced one of the most influential performances ever by an individual in a World Cup.
Also, what captaincy? New Zealand qualified for the semifinals due to NRR and finished level on points with Sarfraz’s mediocre Pakistan to whom he lost.
His team also got thrashed by Australia and England in the group stage and barely scraped over the finish line against West Indies.
Williamson was neither the best player or the best captain during the World Cup. As I said, he was given the player of the tournament award out of sympathy because of the circumstances in which New Zealand lost the final.
If England would have won the super over by runs, or if they would have chased the total in the last over of their innings or if New Zealand would have defended the total in the last over, there is no doubt that Stokes would have been declared the player of the tournament.
Williamson was one of the best players of the World Cup but he was not the best by any means. Stokes was.
As far as captaincy is concerned, the best captain of the tournament was Morgan not just because England won the World Cup but also because of the way he kept everything together when England looked like they were falling apart.
When England stuttered in the group stage and were on the brink of elimination, they faced intense criticism not only from outside but also from within the England press as their aggressive playing style was questioned.
At that point, Morgan didn’t listen to the detractors and proved them wrong by keeping faith in his system and beat India, New Zealand and Australia en route to the final while playing on his terms. It was a display of proper leadership.
Even in the final, England’s positive approach paid dividends in the end because they kept trying to attack New Zealand and didn’t go in their shells in spite of losing wickets, which is exactly the opposite of what New Zealand did and England eventually won by boundary count.
Only when he is batting at home or in UAE.
Let’s see how does in Australia, India, England, South Africa and Sri Lanka in the future. So far he has been completely ordinary in those places.
He gets way too much leniency from the fans on this forum compared to other batsmen of his generation who are never allowed to fail.
Typing "Kane" over "Williamson" will save me more time. I guess that's why.
Root has been washed for 2-3 years.. Is his career average in the 30s yet or has he continued to score useless 50s to keep his average respectable?
Kane has his obvious flaws, but to say Root is better than him is insulting. 99% of his knocks have no influence on the result and he isn't even the second most important batsmen in his team.
I can see mountain of runs coming against Pakistan. Both Latham and Williamson will make merry against us unless they get out to soft deliveries.
Performs under pressure" is a criteria applied selectively only for South Africans not for the rest. You are England cricket fan, so obviously you will have your share of bias.
I have nothing for or against Kane or Root but you can see why most posters over here are rating Kane higher than Root. Kane is NZ's most important player of this generation while for England, a case can be made for numerous guys.
I think Shaheen will trouble Latham a lot.
Williamson is a brilliant batter but he does need to improve his away record. And he should be criticized more for it. It isn't good enough for a player of his ability. But he is still 1 of the top batters of this generation.
His away games are on much tougher surfaces than other batsmen.
In the recent past, NZ have played on green mambas in ENG/SA and minefields in India.
For example, last time NZ went to India, they had to play on dustbowls where Ashwin took 27 wickets. NZ don’t have good spinners so teams give them really hard turning pitches.
On the other hand when England last went to India, Moeen Ali, Keaton Jennings and Haseeb Hameed all got hundreds while Karun Nair got 300. That should tell you about the pitches.
NZ get similar treatment in SA where Steyn got 7 wickets in one match against them.
I like statistics, but they do not tell you the whole picture. You have to look at context and if you watched those series, then you know what I am talking about.
I can see mountain of runs coming against Pakistan. Both Latham and Williamson will make merry against us unless they get out to soft deliveries.
WrongIMO
Smith > Williamson > Kohli in Tests
He is very inconsistent in those countries and has failed apart from the innings where he has scored in three figures.
Averages of 43 in Australia, 35 in India, 30 in England, 21 in South Africa and 26 in Sri Lanka are not remotely good enough for a batsman of his talent, technique and status.
When he fails in these countries he barely scores, and those failures heavily contribute to New Zealand losing in these countries.
In spite of being in a slump for 2-3 years, Root’s away average is still better and he averages more than him in all these countries. That clearly illustrates how much better Root was compared to Williamson during Root’s best years.
If an Indian, Australian or English batsmen would produce the numbers that Williamson has in 4-5 major countries, he will get blasted like no tomorrow.
I guess it is part and parcel of playing for New Zealand. You will not get praised as much as players from India, Australia, England or Pakistan, but you will also not get criticized as much.
In Test cricket, if we talk about the big 4, Smith is clearly number 1 and Kohli is clearly number 2. When it comes to Root and Williamson, if we talk purely current form than Williamson is better than Root at the moment for sure.
However, if we take their entire careers to date into consideration, then Root is significantly better than Williamson.
From 2014 to 2017, Root was extremely consistent (almost averaged 57 at one point) and was running Smith and Kohli close.
On the other hand, Williamson has never scaled those heights and has never got close to Smith and Kohli.
Williamson is a great player, one of the best around. He is also a brilliant ambassador for the game and a good captain, but people have the tendency to overrate his batting a bit and mask and ignore his failures because of the soft spot that they have for him and his team.
So I did a quick compilation of stats for the Fab 4 in what I would call the Fab Four Era. The date I picked to start from was the 14th of March 2013 which represents Smith's recall to the Australian test team and the point in time where all of the fab 4 became test regulars.
Steven Smith
Matches - 70
Runs - 6970
Average - 64.53
Home Average - 72.43
Away+Neutral Average - 59.10
Asia Average - 48.00
Peak year (min. 500 runs) - 2014 with 1146 runs at 81.85
Kane Williamson
Matches - 61
Runs - 5707
Average - 62.71
Home Average - 70.00
Away+Neutral Average - 55.58
Asia Average - 52.80
Peak year (min. 500 runs) - 2015 with 1172 runs at 90.15
Virat Kohli
Matches - 71
Runs - 6286
Average - 56.12
Home Average - 72.55
Away+Neutral Average - 47.00
SENA Average - 47.94
Peak year (min. 500 runs) - 2016 with 1215 runs at 75.93
Joe Root
Matches - 95
Runs - 7726
Average - 48.28
Home Average - 50.55
Away+Neutral Average - 45.64
Asia Average - 44.20
Peak year (min. 500 runs) - 2014 with 777 runs at 97.12
Some notable things from this:
Smith, Kohli and Williamson are all absolute kings at home, averaging 70+ while Root is well behind at only 50 average.
Root has the lowest Average, Away average and foreign conditions average of all four batsmen.
Root's away average suffers the most of the four with the amount of touring Aus and India he has to do.
Kohli was the last of the group to become a great batsman. Smith, Root and Williamson all ascended to a level of greatness in 2014 while for Kohli it did not happen until 2016.
Kohli has been a world class batsman for the longest time, first getting to that level in 2012.
Williamson's stats before this time were 21 matches with a 30 average. Being picked much younger than the others and in to a much worse team dynamic has probably hurt his overall career stats more than we realize.
Root is the only one of the fab four to not maintain a level of greatness once reaching it and has dipped down to merely world class since 2016. In fact he only has 2 great years of batting, 2014 and 2015 and some would say that the last couple of years he has not even been world class.
Williamson's stats are almost as good as Smith's and clearly better than Kohli's during this time which surprised me.
Root plays a ton of test cricket. I wish we got to see the other fab four players that much.
No neutral tests for Kohli makes me a sad boy. I'd love to see him face Pakistan.
If Root does not regain his best form his legacy is going to need some very heavy lifting from being associated to the Fab Four group and being from the Big 3.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Kane Williamson - great cricketer, brilliant sportsman. Here he is pictured congratulating Faheem Ashraf on his excellent innings of 91 <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NZvPAK?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#NZvPAK</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a> <a href="https://t.co/ebcU53khxM">pic.twitter.com/ebcU53khxM</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1343581261630210048?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 28, 2020</a></blockquote>
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Minnow bowling basher
He flopped against Australia in 2019/2020
He is literally unstoppable at home against these weak attacks. Need to see him perform against the top teams away from home.
Minnow bowling basher
He flopped against Australia in 2019/2020
He is a HTB.
Look up his record in India SA ENG SL.
Grade A home bully, should not be compared to Root who has scored evenly all around the world.
Root's average away
Australia - 38.oo
India - 53.09
New Zealand - 39.08
South Africa - 50.21
Sri Lanka - 38.16
UAE - 57.40
West Indies - 53.50
Root has incomparably better away average everywhere. NZ is also MUCH, MUCH flatter than England, England is much more bowling friendly.
Grade A home bully, should not be compared to Root who has scored evenly all around the world.
Root's average away
Australia - 38.oo
India - 53.09
New Zealand - 39.08
South Africa - 50.21
Sri Lanka - 38.16
UAE - 57.40
West Indies - 53.50
Root has incomparably better away average everywhere. NZ is also MUCH, MUCH flatter than England, England is much more bowling friendly.
Surely Root should average more than 39 in NZ then by that logic?
Kane has done better than Root in Australia, New Zealand and UAE. Useless fifties don't count much.
Lol coping hard here I see. 30 avg in England, 21 avg in South Africa and 26 average is Sri Lanka is hard to accept I know
That's 3-3 and Kane is miles better than Root at home. So, Kane wins.
39 is very good away average, it's almost 40. The only country Root has failed in is Bangladesh. Williamson has flopped in half the countries he played in.
Williamson's away average
Australia - 42.84
England - 30.87
India - 35.46
South Africa - 21.16
Sri Lanka - 26.71
UAE - 64.70
West Indies - 51.33
Williamson has 36+ average in just 3 away countries. Root's lowest away average is 38.00 in Australia, has 50+ average in 4 countries (including South Africa and India). They are not even on the same level.
This. Thank you for saying it out loud. Very good batsman but questionable stats outside of NZ.
I have been saying this for a while. But I’m sure the next tours outside of NZ he will improve.
No doubt that he is one of the finest bats of our time but for some reason fans in general do not scrutinize or micro analyze his performances as much as they do for Kohli, Smith or even Root. Imagine if Kohli averaged 40 in Aus, 30 in Eng and a marvelous 21 in SA!!
No doubt that he is one of the finest bats of our time but for some reason fans in general do not scrutinize or micro analyze his performances as much as they do for Kohli, Smith or even Root. Imagine if Kohli averaged 40 in Aus, 30 in Eng and a marvelous 21 in SA!!