This result is an outcome of not using domestic performance as a criteria for selection...

[asifp]

Plain and simple. All our great players were great players at the domestic levels as well.

We are ignoring
Abid Ali, Saud Shakeel, Saad Ali, Fawad Alam, Usman S, M Asghar, Zafar Gohar

instead we have people in the team because they look good to Inzi
Imam, Hafeez, Shafiq, Bilal Asif, Babar Azam

Yes, lets not use merit to choose your teams.

Garbage in, garbage out. A merit based lineup would look like this:

Fakhr
Abid Ali
Harris Sohail
Fawad Alam
Saud Shakeel
Usman S / Saad Ali
Sarfraz / M Rizwan
Yasir Shah
Z Gohar / M Asghar
Shaheen / Hasan Ali
M Abbass


Half your team is based on nepotism, so results are like these. Humiliation at home.

 

[MenInG]

Plain and simple. All our great players were great players at the domestic levels as well.

We are ignoring
Abid Ali, Saud Shakeel, Saad Ali, Fawad Alam, Usman S, M Asghar, Zafar Gohar

instead we have people in the team because they look good to Inzi
Imam, Hafeez, Shafiq, Bilal Asif, Babar Azam

Yes, lets not use merit to choose your teams.

Garbage in, garbage out. A merit based lineup would look like this:

Fakhr
Abid Ali
Harris Sohail
Fawad Alam
Saud Shakeel
Usman S / Saad Ali
Sarfraz / M Rizwan
Yasir Shah
Z Gohar / M Asghar
Shaheen / Hasan Ali
M Abbass


Half your team is based on nepotism, so results are like these. Humiliation at home.

So your plan is what? What should we base selection on? Fan power?

 

[BreadPakoda]

Shafiq made a 100 in this very match

Bilal Asif took a 5-for in this very match

Babar is supposed to be your next superstar.

Yet you want them to be dropped?

 

[shah_1]

The openers have been really poor and Sarfraz can't be dropped.


Otherwise no complain

 

[emranabbas]

We have tried this before it didn't work

Ahmed shezad was a best in domestic but couldn't buy a run at an international level.

Kamran akmal was also a beat at domestic level

Umar akmal was another one

Khurram manzoor, Shoaib maqsood, Shan Masood, etc etc etc

 

[Barragan]

You pay the price of not selecting your best FC players, then this was bound to happen and justice for those that have toiled away.

 

[Savak]

The players played horribly and collapsed under pressure which cost us the first test match and third test match

 

[ARK Rafay]

We have tried this before it didn't work

Ahmed shezad was a best in domestic but couldn't buy a run at an international level.

Kamran akmal was also a beat at domestic level

Umar akmal was another one

Khurram manzoor, Shoaib maqsood, Shan Masood, etc etc etc

Yea we tried same guys. Ahmed Shehzad wasn't leading run scorer in domestic first class. Only Kamran was and that too in PSL.

 

[the Great Khan]

None of the changes mentioned above would make a difference. In the past Misbah would protect us from collapses. The biggest mistake we made was not bringing in fawad when we had the chance. You cant buy mental strength. Unfortunatley our players dont have it..

Now one of the reasons could be the nature of the game today. We are not playing at home, we are playing under immense pressure living from hotel rooms all the time. There is no respite. It does effect you mentally..However this maybe the case for those who play all formats like sarfraz but what exuse does shafiq have? and azhar? and Im a big supporter of both..

we cant succeed in test cricket if asad and azhar keep getting out for cheap scores in the fourth innings..

as for the openers well what can we say? we have tried sami, imam, hafeez even azhar up top..who is thee out there?

our batting cupboard is dry..end of..this is what we have got and have to work with it..

so my advice, get your heads down, and start to get used to some rubbish results..There will be good ones too but we have to support the team and be patient..it wont be easy but we have no other choice..

anyway the test championship is coming so we have to build for that now..

Our domestic structure is decimated, the country is mired in economic problems, the school sports system is finished..there is an international boycott against our cricket..we have to rebuild from scratch..

and please dont mention Umar akmal as a test player..he is one of the worst players to put on the green shirt..

 

[emranabbas]

Yea we tried same guys. Ahmed Shehzad wasn't leading run scorer in domestic first class. Only Kamran was and that too in PSL.

I'm not talking 1 or 2 years ago..

 

[aukhan]

None of the changes mentioned above would make a difference. In the past Misbah would protect us from collapses. The biggest mistake we made was not bringing in fawad when we had the chance. You cant buy mental strength. Unfortunatley our players dont have it..

Now one of the reasons could be the nature of the game today. We are not playing at home, we are playing under immense pressure living from hotel rooms all the time. There is no respite. It does effect you mentally..However this maybe the case for those who play all formats like sarfraz but what exuse does shafiq have? and azhar? and Im a big supporter of both..

Our domestic structure is decimated, the country is mired in economic problems, the school sports system is finished..there is an international boycott against our cricket..we have to rebuild from scratch..

and please dont mention Umar akmal as a test player..he is one of the worst players to put on the green shirt..

We have been playing Tests in UAE since 2010. If living in 5 star hotel rooms is so uncomfortable then please ask him to retire and play domestic where they will provide 1 star accommodation but he will be close to home and family.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Babar is playing a match saving knock and you want him to get dropped?
he also averages 60 something this year in test cricket

 

[the Great Khan]

We have been playing Tests in UAE since 2010. If living in 5 star hotel rooms is so uncomfortable then please ask him to retire and play domestic where they will provide 1 star accommodation but he will be close to home and family.

Then you understand little about being away from home for months on end..do you have children or a wife and family? try staying away from them for a few days..maza aa jay gaa..

Look at people like marcus trescothick and jonathan trott.. top class players who fell apart mentally..they didnt even realise they were suffering until it got really bad..how many of our players are mentally suffering but put a brave face on it. lest some smart mouth makes a comment like yours?

Ask any sportsman about it, especially cricketers who are touring all the time..ask Virat Kohli..ask smith..theyll tell you the benefits of playing at home and getting a respite..

 

[the Great Khan]

Babar is playing a match saving knock and you want him to get dropped?
he also averages 60 something this year in test cricket

fluke player..doesnt colour his hair and has a small belly.. must be dropped for raja shahid pind wala who hit a 50 in 5 balls against the taez gaam cricket club in sarghoda somewhere..

 

[Indiafan]

Then you understand little about being away from home for months on end..do you have children or a wife and family? try staying away from them for a few days..maza aa jay gaa..

Look at people like marcus trescothick and jonathan trott.. top class players who fell apart mentally..they didnt even realise they were suffering until it got really bad..how many of our players are mentally suffering but put a brave face on it. lest some smart mouth makes a comment like yours?

Ask any sportsman about it, especially cricketers who are touring all the time..ask Virat Kohli..ask smith..theyll tell you the benefits of playing at home and getting a respite..

But even when you are playing at home, arent you playing in different cities and staying in hotels anyways? I can understand the support of home crowd is something completely different, but someone like Kohli too lives at hotels even during home matches and IPL

 

[Savak]

But even when you are playing at home, arent you playing in different cities and staying in hotels anyways? I can understand the support of home crowd is something completely different, but someone like Kohli too lives at hotels even during home matches and IPL

You are comparing apples and oranges. Pakistan has been doing this partly from 2001 to 2009 and full time from 2009 onwards, these things will take a toll eventually. Kohli does not live 80% of his time away from home. Even if he is travelling and staying in hotels while playing in India, he is atleast in his home country and playing in front of his people and is in familiar conditions.

 

[Savak]

Selecting the best domestic players alone will not help if they collapse under pressure habitually.

 

[aukhan]

Then you understand little about being away from home for months on end..do you have children or a wife and family? try staying away from them for a few days..maza aa jay gaa..

Look at people like marcus trescothick and jonathan trott.. top class players who fell apart mentally..they didnt even realise they were suffering until it got really bad..how many of our players are mentally suffering but put a brave face on it. lest some smart mouth makes a comment like yours?

Ask any sportsman about it, especially cricketers who are touring all the time..ask Virat Kohli..ask smith..theyll tell you the benefits of playing at home and getting a respite..

All are lame excuses. Im not a sportsman, If i was i wouldn't be complaining about living away from home. You can see players wife and kids with them on tours so i don't really see what is stopping them from performing. Is he the first Pakistani player and captain in over a decade who is playing away from home? The length some people go to to defend their favorites is astonishing. Will the same excuses be given for Hafeez, Imam, Kamran, Malik or Tanvir?

It seems like Sarfraz and co. are doing ehsaan on everyone for playing international cricket. Im sure countless players in domestic cricket will jump on the opportunity of representing Pakistan at international level Please come up with better excuses to hide non performances.

 

[Markhor]

Where other countries increasingly use data and analytics, Pakistan has had an ad hoc selection process over the years based on favouritism or "hunches" with occasionally some merit based selections when a player's record becomes too good to ignore. There's no internal consistency, long-term vision or logic other than to get through the next series. In Inzamam's case, it's more rigid thinking - refusing to change a core group of 15-16 REGARDLESS of results because you've invested so much in them or because of personal likes/dislikes.

Asad Shafiq looks pleasing on the eye and has been the golden boy of team management for 8 years. He's been appointed VC so such a "senior" cannot be dropped, despite possessing a Test average lower than 40. Fawad Alam has a FC average of 55 and an outstanding record of 30 hundreds, but has an "ugly" technique so cannot be selected.

Shan Masood has failed repeatedly at Test level and has a FC average of 33 yet continues to get recalled when he has a much stronger LA record. Imam-ul-Haq has just four FC hundreds to his name after 40+ FC matches and cannot buy a run in UAE but continues to be selected. Meanwhile Abid Ali who has plenty of FC experience is only behind Fakhar Zaman as the best performing opener in the last two seasons of the QEA Trophy is ignored. Where's the logic to this ? Where's the logic to selecting Shadab Khan, having played little FC cricket, to a tour of South Africa as a second spinner when seam friendly conditions are expected ? The only explanation is again, he is a favourite of team management.

Look everyone knows FC cricket in Pakistan is deeply flawed but it's only way we can assess a player's suitability for Test cricket. Ignoring it's top performers means you're relying on average FC performers to significantly overperform in the Test arena which is a rare occurrence, especially as many top FC performers struggle to make the step up to Test level even in countries with better domestic setups like England and Australia. Yet we continue to delude ourselves 30s averaging FC batsmen will average 40+ in Tests. Not logical !

 

[asifp]

Selecting the best domestic players alone will not help if they collapse under pressure habitually.

How do you know that? You wont find out till you don't give them a chance.

What we have in our team are average players in domestic cricket. Choose better players, results will be better.

Fawad > Babar
Fakhr > Hafeez
Abid Ali > Imam
Saud Shakeel > Asad Shafiq

i mean come on, all the best guys are on the bench.

 

[Savak]

How do you know that? You wont find out till you don't give them a chance.

What we have in our team are average players in domestic cricket. Choose better players, results will be better.

Fawad > Babar
Fakhr > Hafeez
Abid Ali > Imam
Saud Shakeel > Asad Shafiq

i mean come on, all the best guys are on the bench.

I would argue that a quality team also needs versatility as well, our present team has far too many slow accumulators, we need atleast 2-3 batsmen who can play aggressively at a SR of 60-70 in test matches. Fakhar Zaman was a welcome inclusion, Sarfaraz is a busy player but too inconsistent but the rest of the squad are all 30-40 SR players which is not good enough and doesn't put the opposition under any kind of pressure at all.

 

[Mamoon]

All of this is well and good and perhaps we should only invest in batsmen with 50+ F/C averages, but do we really think that they have what it takes to win Pakistan games against the top opposition?

Let's take a look at Haris. He averages 50 in domestic cricket, has a lot of experience and is at an age where he should be at his peak. However, in spite of scoring a reasonable amount of runs and averaging around 40, he does not look like someone who will win Pakistan a lot of games against the top flight teams.

Perhaps before picking the best domestic performers, we should look to raise the standards of our domestic cricket. Does a 50 average in Pakistan domestic cricket put you in the same bracket as a 50 averaging batsman in Indian, English, Australian and South African domestic cricket? Are our 50 averaging QeA Trophy batsmen in the same class as the ones in the said countries?

Maybe in the past, but it does not appear to be the case today.

 

[amvbfm]

How do you know that? You wont find out till you don't give them a chance.

What we have in our team are average players in domestic cricket. Choose better players, results will be better.

Fawad > Babar
Fakhr > Hafeez
Abid Ali > Imam
Saud Shakeel > Asad Shafiq

i mean come on, all the best guys are on the bench.

You say you cant be sure about their abilities until you give them a chance and then go on to say that X>Y when two of them haven't even debuted yet. How can you be sure that Saud and Abid are better than Imam and Asad? I agree with you that domestic performances should be rewarded but that does not imply that you change your entire team after every loss. The trigger happy approach that you and a lot of people here advocate sounds good but is rather impractical. Even a team like Australia, which has a far superior domestic structure and better player pool than us has been struggling in the absence of its key players. I am certainly not saying that Azhar or Shafiq are as important to our team as Smith and Warner are to Australia but you cant deny the experience that they bring to the team. Building teams is a gradual process and young players and domestic performers should certainly be given a chance but in a way that ensures continuity. Having said that I agree with you that the present management has done little to dispel the notion that it takes into account domestic performances or that all decisions are made on merit alone.

 

[Savak]

You say you cant be sure about their abilities until you give them a chance and then go on to say that X>Y when two of them haven't even debuted yet. How can you be sure that Saud and Abid are better than Imam and Asad? I agree with you that domestic performances should be rewarded but that does not imply that you change your entire team after every loss. The trigger happy approach that you and a lot of people here advocate sounds good but is rather impractical. Even a team like Australia, which has a far superior domestic structure and better player pool than us has been struggling in the absence of its key players. I am certainly not saying that Azhar or Shafiq are as important to our team as Smith and Warner are to Australia but you cant deny the experience that they bring to the team. Building teams is a gradual process and young players and domestic performers should certainly be given a chance but in a way that ensures continuity. Having said that I agree with you that the present management has done little to dispel the notion that it takes into account domestic performances or that all decisions are made on merit alone.

I am all for consistency and not making wholesale changes out of panic but the balance and structure and concept of the squad also needs to be assessed. Our test batting line up is too one dimensional with too many 20-30 S/R players in the middle order. Fakhar's inclusion was a big welcome but other than that Sarfaraz is the only other busy player in the team but he is far too inconsistent and unreliable. We need 1-2 batsmen who can bat at a S/R of 60-70 in test matches to give a better balance to the team and for the team not to be one dimensional and actually having a Plan B as well

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

All of this is well and good and perhaps we should only invest in batsmen with 50+ F/C averages, but do we really think that they have what it takes to win Pakistan games against the top opposition?

Let's take a look at Haris. He averages 50 in domestic cricket, has a lot of experience and is at an age where he should be at his peak. However, in spite of scoring a reasonable amount of runs and averaging around 40, he does not look like someone who will win Pakistan a lot of games against the top flight teams.

Perhaps before picking the best domestic performers, we should look to raise the standards of our domestic cricket. Does a 50 average in Pakistan domestic cricket put you in the same bracket as a 50 averaging batsman in Indian, English, Australian and South African domestic cricket? Are our 50 averaging QeA Trophy batsmen in the same class as the ones in the said countries?

Maybe in the past, but it does not appear to be the case today.

Pak domestic wickets in the last few years have been tougher to bat on the result being that it has reduced stroke play in batsmen.

Everyone thought that making the wickets tougher would help them to develop against bounce/swing, but instead it had the opposite effect and batsmen forgot to play their shots.

 

[Mamoon]

Pak domestic wickets in the last few years have been tougher to bat on the result being that it has reduced stroke play in batsmen.

Everyone thought that making the wickets tougher would help them to develop against bounce/swing, but instead it had the opposite effect and batsmen forgot to play their shots.

Yes. All of them are grinders who can maintain high averages only by striking at 30-40. Haris Sohail has a strike rate of 43 now, and I think he will never get it back to 50.

 

[Chokli]

Once upon a time this was the batting order fans wanted and they got it.


Chopping and changing isn't going to do much.

4th innings chases in the UAE are always tricky.

 

[JaanZeb]

[MENTION=1404]asifp[/MENTION]

Agree with you. Pakistan A side made up of domestic performers also had lot of favoured selections like Mohammed Saad still Abid Ali,Rizwan and Saud played much better cricket than the Pakistan national side and drew the series. Same players like Wagner and Southee were there playing also. Pakistan A team was making 300-400 scores against the same NZ team where Pak XI can't make 200 with terrible collapses

There is corruption going on by Inzamam.

SR is going down as Pakistan team openers are a walking wicket. Unless Imam is removed Pak middle order likely to dig themselves in and bat out the day with 2.5 to 2.8 RR.

 

[shaz72]

Score line for Babar in SA Test series. 12-21,30-3, 10-0.
Imam 0-10, 23-10, 12-20.
Fakhar if he plays 40-20, 35-10,15-20.

This is what they worth.

 

[asifp]

[MENTION=1404]asifp[/MENTION]

Agree with you. Pakistan A side made up of domestic performers also had lot of favoured selections like Mohammed Saad still Abid Ali,Rizwan and Saud played much better cricket than the Pakistan national side and drew the series. Same players like Wagner and Southee were there playing also. Pakistan A team was making 300-400 scores against the same NZ team where Pak XI can't make 200 with terrible collapses

There is corruption going on by Inzamam.

SR is going down as Pakistan team openers are a walking wicket. Unless Imam is removed Pak middle order likely to dig themselves in and bat out the day with 2.5 to 2.8 RR.

Exactly my point.

Our domestic champions just chased 300 in Dubai against England A and our guys cant even get 150!

I mean is Inzi blind. I bet the Pakistan A team would smash Pakistan team right now.

 

[asifp]

Yes. All of them are grinders who can maintain high averages only by striking at 30-40. Haris Sohail has a strike rate of 43 now, and I think he will never get it back to 50.

hmmmm.... Harris Sohail a domestic champion helped you win a game!

Give them a chance!

 

[Zaz]

Surely youd think after such a poor performance by the batsmen over 2 home series a couple of them would be dropped and replaced with those tjay have done well in fc and A playerzs

I just dont understand why the thick tank have so much repetitive faith over the likes of hafeez shafiq etc after theyve been failing for years on end

Why wouldnt you induct a couple of new playerz for the upcoming tour??

 

[badsha001]

Exactly my point.

Our domestic champions just chased 300 in Dubai against England A and our guys cant even get 150!

I mean is Inzi blind. I bet the Pakistan A team would smash Pakistan team right now.

I don't understand why national team doesn't play against our A team...? I am 99% confident that A team will smash these midgets

 

[shortbread]

Surely youd think after such a poor performance by the batsmen over 2 home series a couple of them would be dropped and replaced with those tjay have done well in fc and A playerzs

I just dont understand why the thick tank have so much repetitive faith over the likes of hafeez shafiq etc after theyve been failing for years on end

Why wouldnt you induct a couple of new playerz for the upcoming tour??

Imam, Azhar, Haris, Shafiq and Babar must be continued with for longer. The stability will help the team and improve their performances.

Chopping and changing every few series isn't going to help anyone.

 

[Zaz]

Imam, Azhar, Haris, Shafiq and Babar must be continued with for longer. The stability will help the team and improve their performances.

Chopping and changing every few series isn't going to help anyone.

Shafiq has been playing for 8 years on a trot not a few series You can make a case on the others continuing inclusion but not shafiqs He’s been playing poorly for the last 2-3 years now bar an odd innings here and there

It’s frankly unacceptable now

 

[Barragan]

We have tried this before it didn't work

Ahmed shezad was a best in domestic but couldn't buy a run at an international level.

Kamran akmal was also a beat at domestic level

Umar akmal was another one

Khurram manzoor, Shoaib maqsood, Shan Masood, etc etc etc

That is absolute nonsense.

Shehzad was very good amongst the openers and still has the 2nd best record as opener (after Azhar) with an average of 41, so he hardly failed.

As for Akmal, he still has the 4th best average outside Asia since his debut, so he was hardly a failure either.

Only Manzoor failed and Kamran was picked because he was the best amongst the wicket-keepers in batting and that is why he was selected, whilst Maqsood has never played a Test match and he never even was the best.

Lastly, you mention shan and you think he was picked on performance? LOL

 

[MMHS]

May be.....

From the FC season, top 6 names in run chart are -

Khurram Manzoor, Umar Amin, Imran Farhat, Fawad Alam, Umar Akmal & Iftekhar Ahmed.

Top 4 bowlers in bowling list are -

Aizaz Cheema, Kashif Bhatti, Abdur Rehman & Nauman Ali. However, A Rehman is retired, therefore we can look into No. 5 - Taj Wali.

Bring it on, why not.