Turkey defies US as Russian S-400 missile defence arrives

[giri26]

Turkey has received the first parts of a Russian S-400 missile defence system despite opposition from the US.

The shipment arrived in an airbase in the capital Ankara on Friday, the Turkish defence ministry says.

The move will anger the US, which has warned that Turkey cannot have both the S-400 anti-aircraft defence system and US F-35 fighter jets.

Turkey and the US are Nato allies - but Turkey has also been establishing closer links with Russia.

Turkey has signed up to buying 100 US F-35s, and has invested heavily in the F-35 programme.

However, US defence officials have said they do not want the F-35 jets to be near S-400 systems - because they fear Russian technicians will be able to access the F-35's vulnerabilities.

This looks set to prompt a major rift between Washington and one of its key Nato allies. For an alliance member to buy this kind of equipment from Russia is almost unprecedented.

The US has already halted deliveries of the aircraft to Turkey and suspended the training of Turkish pilots.

Plans are also under way to remove Turkey from the programme altogether. It manufactures part of the F-35 and is due to be a regional hub for maintenance of the aircraft.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan seems to believe that, whatever the Pentagon may say, Donald Trump himself is less hostile to the purchase of the Russian missiles.

A major test of ties between Ankara and Washington beckons.

Long-range surveillance radar tracks objects and relays information to command vehicle, which assesses potential targets

Target is identified and command vehicle orders missile launch

Launch data are sent to the best placed launch vehicle and it releases surface-to-air missiles

Engagement radar helps guide missiles towards target

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48962885

 

[sweep_shot]

Turkey is a sovereign nation. It can do what it pleases. It doesn't have to answer to USA.

 

[msaaim89]

Embarrassing for the might US.

Well done Turkey.

Believe India is next in line but they may back down as they did with Iran oil.

 

[Robert]

Embarrassing for the might US.

Well done Turkey.

For betraying all her NATO allies?

If Turkey wishes to behave this way, it should quit the Alliance.

 

[Saeed]

Embarrassing for the might US.

Well done Turkey.

Believe India is next in line but they may back down as they did with Iran oil.

Don’t think so, in comparison Turkey lost on its economy and modern fighter jets. Both US and Russia are better off after this deal.

 

[msaaim89]

Don’t think so, in comparison Turkey lost on its economy and modern fighter jets. Both US and Russia are better off after this deal.

Didn't you predict Turkey would back down?

Modern fighter jets which come with peculiar T&C's?

The US is just hurt since they couldn't sell their patriots. Well Turkey has now got a better product for a better price, that's a win.

Unlike US, I bet the Russians have not set a precondition of requiring all future purchases to be Russian hardware.

 

[msaaim89]

[MENTION=52376]Saeed[/MENTION]

What are your thoughts on India purchasing S400 which the US doesn't like either?

 

[msaaim89]

For betraying all her NATO allies?

If Turkey wishes to behave this way, it should quit the Alliance.

Don't forget who was behind the attempted coup.

 

[KingKhanWC]

For betraying all her NATO allies?

If Turkey wishes to behave this way, it should quit the Alliance.

USA showed its alliance when it backed Israel over Turkey after Israeli soldiers illegally entered a Turkish boat and murdered numerous people. Turkey has to look after it's own security and it will because it's not Americas lapdog like the UK and others.

Good on Turkey and yes perhaps it would be better to leave the North Atlantic Terrorist Organisation. T

 

[msaaim89]

Slightly off topic, but what is the purpose of NATO other than for everyone to spend a part of their budget on US equipment.

Better of disbanding NATO and having a European army instead.

Soviet Union isn't around any longer!
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]

 

[cricketjoshila]

Embarrassing for the might US.

Well done Turkey.

Believe India is next in line but they may back down as they did with Iran oil.

Iran oil had options.

Russia is non negotiable. The Indian Air Chief is in Russia to see the progress of the weapons.

 

[PakLFC]

American power is gradually diminishing. Other countries like Pak, Turkey, North Korea and Iran are telling them where to go. IK will soon be telling Trump that continue dying in Afghanistan or get out. We have stopped fighting your war some time back.

 

[cricketjoshila]

American power is gradually diminishing. Other countries like Pak, Turkey, North Korea and Iran are telling them where to go. IK will soon be telling Trump that continue dying in Afghanistan or get out. We have stopped fighting your war some time back.

Pak Iran NoKo are all economically struggling. Iran despite being a oil producer is in dire economic condition.

IK will be asking Trump to give him some money and get him out of FATF.

 

[PakLFC]

Pak Iran NoKo are all economically struggling. Iran despite being a oil producer is in dire economic condition.

IK will be asking Trump to give him some money and get him out of FATF.

No he won't. IK will be telling Trumpy to keep his money like he did before. Struggling economically does not mean obeying American demands. Pak can no longer afford to fight American WoT. America will never attack Iran coz of the oil route or NK, no chance.

 

[sweep_shot]

I salute and admire Erodgan. Only Muslim leader with guts along with Imran Khan.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Pak Iran NoKo are all economically struggling. Iran despite being a oil producer is in dire economic condition.

IK will be asking Trump to give him some money and get him out of FATF.

If you spent your money on feeding your hundreds of millions of poor, you wouldnt afford any weapons. India has the largest number of poor people on the planet, so a bit stupid to feel you Switzerland.

You say India will continue to buy and so it should but we will have to see. You were saying India will continue to buy Iranian oil but this did not materialise.

 

[cricketjoshila]

If you spent your money on feeding your hundreds of millions of poor, you wouldnt afford any weapons. India has the largest number of poor people on the planet, so a bit stupid to feel you Switzerland.

You say India will continue to buy and so it should but we will have to see. You were saying India will continue to buy Iranian oil but this did not materialise.

India has a higher per capita income than Pakistan. Falling PKR and stalling growth is dragging more pakistanis into poverty.

India continued to buy for 7 years. At a time when others stopped buying.

And Iran is not Russia. Iran supported Pakistan during wars and supplied material.

 

[KingKhanWC]

India has a higher per capita income than Pakistan. Falling PKR and stalling growth is dragging more pakistanis into poverty.

India continued to buy for 7 years. At a time when others stopped buying.

And Iran is not Russia. Iran supported Pakistan during wars and supplied material.

India has around 3x more people than the population of Pakistan. Pakistan will never have so many poor people. Numbers matters.

India still stopped after you were acting mighty suggesting they wont.

 

[PakLFC]

Indians do not understand that they also have far more people to feed, clothe and lookafter then Pak. To bad despite their great economy hundreds of millions still live on the streets. As I often say a teaspoon of sugar can be tasted in a small cup much better then in a mug.

 

[Robert]

Slightly off topic, but what is the purpose of NATO other than for everyone to spend a part of their budget on US equipment.

Better of disbanding NATO and having a European army instead.

Soviet Union isn't around any longer!

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]

I would be fine with a Euro Army. The US has become an unreliable ally under Trump.

Doesn’t change my point that Turkey has to figure out which was its bread is buttered, and either lean towards Western liberal democracy or neofascist authoritarianism.

 

[Robert]

USA showed its alliance when it backed Israel over Turkey after Israeli soldiers illegally entered a Turkish boat and murdered numerous people. Turkey has to look after it's own security and it will because it's not Americas lapdog like the UK and others.

Good on Turkey and yes perhaps it would be better to leave the North Atlantic Terrorist Organisation. T

You bring Israel into everything..... Do you refer to the flotilla raid? Israel apologised to Turkey for the illegal actions and paid compensation.

As part of NATO Turkey does not have to look after her own security alone as an attack on her is an attack on every NATO state. I mean an attack of sufficient magnitude to trigger Article Five, rather than boats being seized.

They can leave NATO if they like - it would be a loss because they have the biggest army after the USA - but should not play Russia off against NATO. One or the other.

 

[msaaim89]

I would be fine with a Euro Army. The US has become an unreliable ally under Trump.

Doesn’t change my point that Turkey has to figure out which was its bread is buttered, and either lean towards Western liberal democracy or neofascist authoritarianism.

Turkey can carry on as is, purchasing whatever hardware it feels necessary.

If others feel it's taking Turkey away from them, so be it.

 

[msaaim89]

They can leave NATO if they like - it would be a loss because they have the biggest army after the USA - but should not play Russia off against NATO. One or the other.

Doesn’t everyone play each other off to get betyer deals?

In this case however, the US is making unjust demands and Turkey has not bowed.

 

[Robert]

Turkey can carry on as is, purchasing whatever hardware it feels necessary.

If others feel it's taking Turkey away from them, so be it.

So the NATO nations are all out of step with Turkey.

So if someone’s wife has an affair with another man, that’s ok because she can sleep with whoever she feels necessary.

 

[Robert]

Doesn’t everyone play each other off to get betyer deals?

In this case however, the US is making unjust demands and Turkey has not bowed.

No. Britain doesn’t buy kit from authoritarian states such as Russia or China. It buys kit from friendly liberal democracies in order to support the spread of liberal democracy.

The US stance is reasonable.

 

[msaaim89]

So the NATO nations are all out of step with Turkey.

So if someone’s wife has an affair with another man, that’s ok because she can sleep with whoever she feels necessary.

Apples and oranges Robert.

If someone else makes a product that suits your needs, you will buy it rather than something that doesn't fit just because they are friends/allies.

Think British Airways using Boeing Aircraft over Airbus. Or Delta using Airbus aircraft over Boeing. It what suits your own business needs.

 

[msaaim89]

No. Britain doesn’t buy kit from authoritarian states such as Russia or China. It buys kit from friendly liberal democracies in order to support the spread of liberal democracy.

The US stance is reasonable.

Yet it's more than happy to sell kit to authoritarian states?

Don't think your theory works.

 

[JaDed]

Apples and oranges Robert.

If someone else makes a product that suits your needs, you will buy it rather than something that doesn't fit just because they are friends/allies.

Think British Airways using Boeing Aircraft over Airbus. Or Delta using Airbus aircraft over Boeing. It what suits your own business needs.

Business is not same as defense, those decisions are taken by govn

 

[JaDed]

So the NATO nations are all out of step with Turkey.

So if someone’s wife has an affair with another man, that’s ok because she can sleep with whoever she feels necessary.

NATO has to evolve, plus US is unreliable , consider Turkey reacting to US stupidities.

 

[BlackThunder]

Trump has a very understanding view of it.

https://youtu.be/s06VI7uPHtQ

 

[BlackThunder]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/s06VI7uPHtQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Robert]

Yet it's more than happy to sell kit to authoritarian states?

Don't think your theory works.

It’s a great shame that UK sells planes and tanks to Saudi Arabia. On the other hand, they are not training nukes on us.

 

[Robert]

Trump has a very understanding view of it.

Trump knows who his boss is.

 

[Robert]

Apples and oranges Robert.

If someone else makes a product that suits your needs, you will buy it rather than something that doesn't fit just because they are friends/allies.

Think British Airways using Boeing Aircraft over Airbus. Or Delta using Airbus aircraft over Boeing. It what suits your own business needs.

Apples and apples. If you are in a military alliance you do not buy kit from powers hostile to that alliance. Turkey can leave NATO and buy Sukhois instead of Lockheeds if it wants.

 

[BlackThunder]

Trump knows who his boss is.

Lol typical response.

 

[srh]

Cannot fault Turkey here. Turkey was forced to go to Russia to buy this system when US rejected them.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You bring Israel into everything..... Do you refer to the flotilla raid? Israel apologised to Turkey for the illegal actions and paid compensation.

As part of NATO Turkey does not have to look after her own security alone as an attack on her is an attack on every NATO state. I mean an attack of sufficient magnitude to trigger Article Five, rather than boats being seized.

They can leave NATO if they like - it would be a loss because they have the biggest army after the USA - but should not play Russia off against NATO. One or the other.

Israel is the biggest threat to world peace and relevant in this discussion. Yes the murders on the aid ship. Israel apologised after many many months but you miss the point. Israel is a thread to Turkey, if it attacks Turkey will NATO defend Turkey? Of course not. Leaving Nato will be no loss for Turkey for this reason alone.

Nato has killed millions in the last couple of decades alone, it is now used as a state terrorist machine rather than a defence against the Soviets(who no longer exist). Robert, you need to wake up and move away from defending the UK and it;s western allies who are now criminals of the highest order in International affairs, stop defending murderers!

 

[Robert]

Israel is the biggest threat to world peace and relevant in this discussion. Yes the murders on the aid ship. Israel apologised after many many months but you miss the point. Israel is a thread to Turkey, if it attacks Turkey will NATO defend Turkey? Of course not. Leaving Nato will be no loss for Turkey for this reason alone.

Nato has killed millions in the last couple of decades alone, it is now used as a state terrorist machine rather than a defence against the Soviets(who no longer exist). Robert, you need to wake up and move away from defending the UK and it;s western allies who are now criminals of the highest order in International affairs, stop defending murderers!

Israel will not attack Turkey, because Turkey is a member of NATO. An attack on one is an attack on all.

NATO has not killed “millions”.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Israel will not attack Turkey, because Turkey is a member of NATO. An attack on one is an attack on all.

NATO has not killed “millions”.

Israel attacked Turkish boat in international waters murdering 10 people. This was an attack on Turkey and Nato did nothing in support of Turkey.

4 million have been killed in the last few decades alone by Nato/US.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opini...rn-wars-have-killed-four-million-muslims-1990

Nato is responsible for the mess Libya is in now amongst other nations.

 

[BlackThunder]

Robert is a prime example of why politicians such as Trump or Farage become so popular. Despite a clear mistreatment of Turkey by Obama who basically left Turkey with no choice but to turn towards Russia he is still so caught up in his misplaced believe in NATO or Euro Army that he cannot see how they mistreated one of their allies.

 

[Robert]

Israel attacked Turkish boat in international waters murdering 10 people. This was an attack on Turkey and Nato did nothing in support of Turkey.

4 million have been killed in the last few decades alone by Nato/US.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opini...rn-wars-have-killed-four-million-muslims-1990

Nato is responsible for the mess Libya is in now amongst other nations.

I mean that Israel will not bomb or invade a NATO member in the way it did Lebanon or Iraq because that would be of a sufficient level to trigger Article Five. Plus it would make no sense geopolitically. Lower level incidents are dealt with by diplomatic links.

The Libya no-fly zone enforced by NATO was mandated by the UNSC at the request of the Arab League, so you must blame the Arab League and UN.

 

[Robert]

Robert is a prime example of why politicians such as Trump or Farage become so popular. Despite a clear mistreatment of Turkey by Obama who basically left Turkey with no choice but to turn towards Russia he is still so caught up in his misplaced believe in NATO or Euro Army that he cannot see how they mistreated one of their allies.

Nothing to do with the 2008 crash, a decade of austerity, Rust Belt jobs outsourced and a rise in English nationalism?

Oh that’s right, it was me.

I had no idea I was that influential!

 

[msaaim89]

It’s a great shame that UK sells planes and tanks to Saudi Arabia. On the other hand, they are not training nukes on us.

Neither is Turkey or Iran?

 

[KingKhanWC]

I mean that Israel will not bomb or invade a NATO member in the way it did Lebanon or Iraq because that would be of a sufficient level to trigger Article Five. Plus it would make no sense geopolitically. Lower level incidents are dealt with by diplomatic links.

The Libya no-fly zone enforced by NATO was mandated by the UNSC at the request of the Arab League, so you must blame the Arab League and UN.

Israel is cowardly it wont bomb anyone who might fight back. It will think twice of bombing Lebanon now after Hezbollah killed 100 of it's soldiers and returned the dead the body of the 3 in return for live prisoners. The point was Nato did not even issue a warning or officially never condememed the attack on the Turkish ship. Nato supports Irsael over Turkey and Turkey know this which is why they are looking afterthemselves. The US who is supposed to be an ally is harbouring a terrorist who is wanted in Turkey and will not extradite him, what kind of alliance is this? Remeber the Yanks and it's lapdogs inc the UK destroyed a poor nation in pursuit of a terrorist.

The Arabs came in much later(weeks), the initial 'request' to allow NAto to bomb Libya came from the Yanks and French. Just because the UN approves something doesnt make it right . Libya was the most developed African nation and now it's in ruins because of state terrorism.

You need to stop defending murderers and get with the times, the west are not the good guys.

 

[msaaim89]

Apples and apples. If you are in a military alliance you do not buy kit from powers hostile to that alliance. Turkey can leave NATO and buy Sukhois instead of Lockheeds if it wants.

No.

They can buy from whomever they like ifnot better suits their requirements.

The US should not have marked up on their Patriots.

Tough luck, the horse has already bolted.

 

[sweep_shot]

Israel will not attack Turkey, because Turkey is a member of NATO. An attack on one is an attack on all.

NATO has not killed “millions”.

With all due respect, I don't think NATO will go against Israel. Israel pretty much controls USA and NATO. Israel should take off the mask and just call itself United States of Israel.

 

[WebGuru]

Turkey is officially kicked out of the F35 program - White House Press Release

Unfortunately, Turkey’s decision to purchase Russian S-400 air defense systems renders its continued involvement with the F-35 impossible. The F-35 cannot coexist with a Russian intelligence collection platform that will be used to learn about its advanced capabilities. The United States has been actively working with Turkey to provide air defense solutions to meet its legitimate air defense needs, and this Administration has made multiple offers to move Turkey to the front of the line to receive the U.S. PATRIOT air defense system. Turkey has been a longstanding and trusted partner and NATO Ally for over 65 years, but accepting the S-400 undermines the commitments all NATO Allies made to each other to move away from Russian systems. This will have detrimental impacts on Turkish interoperability with the Alliance. The United States still greatly values our strategic relationship with Turkey. As NATO Allies, our relationship is multi-layered, and not solely focused on the F-35. Our military-to-military relationship is strong, and we will continue to cooperate with Turkey extensively, mindful of constraints due to the presence of the S-400 system in Turkey.


Source: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-press-secretary-64/

 

[msaaim89]

Turkey is officially kicked out of the F35 program - White House Press Release

Unfortunately, Turkey’s decision to purchase Russian S-400 air defense systems renders its continued involvement with the F-35 impossible. The F-35 cannot coexist with a Russian intelligence collection platform that will be used to learn about its advanced capabilities. The United States has been actively working with Turkey to provide air defense solutions to meet its legitimate air defense needs, and this Administration has made multiple offers to move Turkey to the front of the line to receive the U.S. PATRIOT air defense system. Turkey has been a longstanding and trusted partner and NATO Ally for over 65 years, but accepting the S-400 undermines the commitments all NATO Allies made to each other to move away from Russian systems. This will have detrimental impacts on Turkish interoperability with the Alliance. The United States still greatly values our strategic relationship with Turkey. As NATO Allies, our relationship is multi-layered, and not solely focused on the F-35. Our military-to-military relationship is strong, and we will continue to cooperate with Turkey extensively, mindful of constraints due to the presence of the S-400 system in Turkey.


Source: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-press-secretary-64/

It was bound to happen as threatened previously by the US.

However it's much better for Turkey. US absolutely cannot be trusted.

What will be interesting is costs regarding training of Turkish pilots and also what will happen regarding the specific partd that are manufactured in Turkey. It's not an overnight job to begin manufacturing fresh parts.

 

[sweep_shot]

Communist Russia reckoned that in five years, you could transform an economy.

Vladimir Putin's Russia has updated the idea. Over the last five years it's not the economy the Kremlin has been expanding: it's Moscow's geo-political clout.

Think back to 2014.

Following Russia's annexation of Crimea and its military intervention in eastern Ukraine, Moscow - slapped with Western sanctions - looked isolated, a pariah state.

Western leaders queued up to criticise President Putin, confident that pressure on the Kremlin would change its behaviour. President Barack Obama dismissed Russia as a "regional power". For a former superpower, that hurt.

Fast forward to 2019.

Will a deal with Russia bring peace to Ukraine?
Is Putin's popularity in decline?
Today, Russia is pushing for global influence. It interfered in America's presidential election on the side of Donald Trump, according to US intelligence; it's seeking to boost its role in Africa and Latin America; and it's also exploiting divisions within Europe.

Mediator in the Middle East
In the Middle East, the transformation is stark. Four years after Moscow launched its military operation in Syria, Russia is replacing America as the key player and power broker in the region.

In the space of just a few days, Vladimir Putin has spoken by phone to the Turkish president and invited him to Moscow; he had a phone call with the Israeli prime minister where they discussed "security issues"; he visited Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

It is a sign of Russia's increasing active role in the Middle East.

This is how popular Russian tabloid Moskovsky Komsomolets views the change:

"The current situation in the Middle East would have been unthinkable in the days of Henry Kissinger and his idea of 'global geopolitical chess'. The oversized giant by the name of America lost its way in broad daylight… while Russian diplomacy is ahead of the game.

"Russia plays the role of the universal mediator and political broker, and none of the regional powers can ignore it."

Skip Twitter post by @BBCSteveREnd of Twitter post by @BBCSteveR
In Moscow, Donald Trump's decision to pull US troops away from the Syrian-Turkish border took foreign policy experts by surprise.

"There is a deep belief here that Americans are smart," says Fyodor Lukyanov, a Russian foreign policy analyst close to the Kremlin. "And that if Americans do something stupid, it's not because it's stupid, but because we don't completely understand their grand design.

"For many Russians it's difficult to believe Americans might do completely crazy things. But it turns out that they can."

Syria: Why Russia wins
There are several ways in which Moscow benefits from the current situation in north-eastern Syria:

Russia is President Assad's chief backer, politically and militarily. The more territory Damascus reclaims, the better for Moscow
In abandoning the Kurds, America's reputation in the region as a reliable partner has been shattered. This allows Russia to portray itself - to all sides in the Middle East - as the only power broker and peacemaker in town. Russian military police are already patrolling a contact line between Syrian and Turkish forces. The implicit message: if you want peace in the Middle East, turn to Russia
In recent years, Moscow has been trying to weaken Western alliances, primarily the EU and Nato, by exploiting disagreements between member states. Friction between Turkey and other Nato members over Syria plays into Russia's hands, as Moscow seeks to drive a wedge within Nato. The US was already unhappy at Turkey buying Russian S-400 air defence systems.

When Moscow launched its military operation in Syria in 2015, the Kremlin claimed its priority was defeating international terrorism. But rebuilding Russia's influence in the Middle East was a major consideration.

From its naval base in Tartus, Russia can project military power across the Mediterranean. Recent reports suggest Moscow is expanding its air base near Latakia.

Balance of power changing?
Russia's increasing assertiveness on the world stage has coincided with a period of political introspection in the West.

"The US and European powers are much more inward-looking than a couple of years ago," Fyodor Lukyanov believes. "What we see are Russian opponents, who tried to isolate Russia, in a state of considerable flux. In contrast, Russia demonstrated a high degree of resilience to outside pressure and skilful behaviour in the Middle East."

Resilience and skill - certainly. Enhanced influence - for sure. But for a resurgent Russia, there are potential pitfalls.

This country is no economic superpower. Russia's economy is fragile and further stagnation may limit Moscow's global ambitions.

As for the Middle East, the region is complex, torn by division, mistrust and hatred. Russia may have emerged as the power broker. But it faces a daunting diplomatic balancing act if it to use its influence to restore peace.

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50068498.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING: US Sanctions <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Turkey?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Turkey</a> for Buying Russian S400 System<br><br>• Sanctions Presidency of defense industries <br>• Ban on all export licenses <br>• Sanctions Ismail Demir<br>• Sanctions SSB officers<br>• Visa restrictions <a href="https://t.co/VVS6MMZb0l">https://t.co/VVS6MMZb0l</a></p>— Joyce Karam (@Joyce_Karam) <a href="https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1338547574660325385?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 14, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>