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[VIDEOS] Imran Khan is the greatest cricketer ever

Haroon786 said:
How is Murali being a chucker an unproven allegation ? Was he not called for chucking several times and found to be chucking by the contemporaneous rules ?

I don't have time either for posters of your caliber.

If that can be used as evidence for 'cheating' then the likes of Warne, Tendulkar and Dravid are also cheaters.
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Murali being chucker or not is a subjective matter. Has ICC banned him like it did with Ajmal ? Please talk about facts.
 
TheNightWatchman said:
No answer thus stating "irrelevant argument". Makes sense
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No.. irrelevant in the context of comparison of players who have both played ODIs and Tests. To bring players who have not played one of the formats in this discussion is irrelevant.

Plus I hate posters (myself included) who jump to a discussion and take a post without context and just reply to that.
 
IndianWillow said:
People give too much importance to unquantifiable metrics like talent etc.
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Right.. but I am not talking about masses, but a few well known experts who are regarded for their keen knowledge of the game and unbiased views.

They can still be wrong but we need strong evidence to prove them wrong.
 
Haroon786 said:
All of them since you're dodging them pretty much.
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Sorry, I may have lost track of them since I am replying to many posters simultaneously. Can you repeat questions ? I will not dodge for sure, I may give wrong answer though.
 
tempus123 said:
Sorry, I may have lost track of them since I am replying to many posters simultaneously. Can you repeat questions ? I will not dodge for sure, I may give wrong answer though.
Click to expand...

Previous page, don't know the post number.
 
tempus123 said:
Right.. but I am not talking about masses, but a few well known experts who are regarded for their keen knowledge of the game and unbiased views.

They can still be wrong but we need strong evidence to prove them wrong.
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For Imran's evaluation we can checkout the Wisden players of the century listing.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/153387.html

Imran got 13 votes and stood 10th. But this was in a setting where 48 out of the 100 experts were from England and Australia. You can expect some bias towards English and Australian players and if you take these out Imran stood second - only behind Sobers.

Asian countries used to be generally sidelined in these listings in the previous century. BCCI's rise has ensured that some modern Indian players may get biased ratings, but nobody gains a penny by biased voting for players from Pakistan and Srilanka. Imran's ranking at #2 among the neutrals strongly suggest how much he was rated.
 
IndianWillow said:
For Imran's evaluation we can checkout the Wisden players of the century listing.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/153387.html

Imran got 13 votes and stood 10th. But this was in a setting where 48 out of the 100 experts were from England and Australia. You can expect some bias towards English and Australian players and if you take these out Imran stood second - only behind Sobers.

Asian countries used to be generally sidelined in these listings in the previous century. BCCI's rise has ensured that some modern Indian players may get biased ratings, but nobody gains a penny by biased voting for players from Pakistan and Srilanka. Imran's ranking at #2 among the neutrals strongly suggest how much he was rated.
Click to expand...

It actually no. 4

Frank Worrell and Viv Richards are also ahead of him in those rankings.

A couple of points - Since you mentioned that there is nothing gained from voting for a Pakistani - what is gained from voting for a WI player? There are 3 of those in the top 10. Also, this was done in 2000. Murali, SRT and Warney only had half of their career
 
IndianWillow said:
For Imran's evaluation we can checkout the Wisden players of the century listing.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/153387.html

Imran got 13 votes and stood 10th. But this was in a setting where 48 out of the 100 experts were from England and Australia. You can expect some bias towards English and Australian players and if you take these out Imran stood second - only behind Sobers.

Asian countries used to be generally sidelined in these listings in the previous century. BCCI's rise has ensured that some modern Indian players may get biased ratings, but nobody gains a penny by biased voting for players from Pakistan and Srilanka. Imran's ranking at #2 among the neutrals strongly suggest how much he was rated.
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Your argument of taking out 48 out of 100 experts because they "could" be and not "were" biased can neither be refuted nor accepted.
 
Haroon786 said:
I take care of calling a troll a troll particular when he has been one for so long.
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Yes, but it can be always used an excuse for rejecting differing views. At best you can report him, and if he is flying well below the ban radar, so it boils down to difference of opinion at best.
 
Lol at putting Imran and Muralitharan at the same level in ODIs, ridiculous to say the least.
 
tempus123 said:
Yes, but it can be always used an excuse for rejecting differing views. At best you can report him, and if he is flying well below the ban radar, so it boils down to difference of opinion at best.
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I'm quite objective and know what a troll us, so thank you for the lesson.
 
Mamoon said:
Lol at putting Imran and Muralitharan at the same level in ODIs, ridiculous to say the least.
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That may be ridiculous, but what is even more radical is the discussion of ODIs when measuring greatness.
 
Haroon786 said:
That may be ridiculous, but what is even more radical is the discussion of ODIs when measuring greatness.
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Wasn't being the WC captain brought in as a point, oh.. was that Test match world cup ?

PS: You never know, he might be considering Imran much better than Murali in ODIs.
 
Enforcer said:
But same can't be said about pattinson , cummins etc.
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Obviously not every bowler is going to be influenced by one player. But the statement that McGrath has not influenced the next generation is blatantly false.
 
Haroon786 said:
One is the post that you quoted in #160 and the rest are on the previous page.
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How is Murali being a chucker an unproven allegation ? Was he not called for chucking several times and found to be chucking by the contemporaneous rules ?

I don't have time either for posters of your caliber.

If that can be used as evidence for 'cheating' then the likes of Warne, Tendulkar and Dravid are also cheaters.

This one ?
 
tempus123 said:
How is Murali being a chucker an unproven allegation ? Was he not called for chucking several times and found to be chucking by the contemporaneous rules ?

I don't have time either for posters of your caliber.

If that can be used as evidence for 'cheating' then the likes of Warne, Tendulkar and Dravid are also cheaters.

This one ?
Click to expand...

Yes.
 
tempus123 said:
How is Murali being a chucker an unproven allegation ? Was he not called for chucking several times and found to be chucking by the contemporaneous rules ?

I don't have time either for posters of your caliber.

If that can be used as evidence for 'cheating' then the likes of Warne, Tendulkar and Dravid are also cheaters.

This one ?
Click to expand...

1. Murali being chucker or not, people have divided views on it. The umpire called no-balls for him, and then later he was tested through an independent procedure. ICC considers him eligible to play. It proves ICC doesn't consider him a chucker. These are facts. Now the intention of ICC to change the rules etc. is a long discussion which I don't want to get involved in, because it's a big thread in itself. At best, it's an assumption that ICC was afraid of banning Murali due to racist allegations. Such assumptions can neither be refuted fully, nor proven. They are not facts.

2. I think if you don't have time for posters of my calibre, it is perfectly fine. I guess I can't answer this question, as it's a personal decision of yours.

3. I am not sure about Warne, but the two Indians you mentioned, the case is entirely different. True both were punished for changing the state of the ball, but can't be called "cheaters" as the intention matters here.
Tendulkar was rightfully punished for not informing the umpire and picking the grass out of the ball. It's much different from changing the shape of the ball knowing it would help it seam/swing. Breaking a law is different from breaking the law knowingly and cheating.
 
Sidilicious said:
It actually no. 4

Frank Worrell and Viv Richards are also ahead of him in those rankings.

A couple of points - Since you mentioned that there is nothing gained from voting for a Pakistani - what is gained from voting for a WI player? There are 3 of those in the top 10. Also, this was done in 2000. Murali, SRT and Warney only had half of their career
Click to expand...

WI was an influential team back then. India and Pakistan were mostly minnows until the 70s, which is why almost all the old players in that list are either from WI, England or Australia. WI were no longer influential after early 90s so you don't see a single person voting for Lara.
 
tempus123 said:
Your argument of taking out 48 out of 100 experts because they "could" be and not "were" biased can neither be refuted nor accepted.
Click to expand...

Jack Hobbs with 30 votes and Marshall with 3 votes should tell you the effect of 48 experts in the list.
 
IndianWillow said:
WI was an influential team back then. India and Pakistan were mostly minnows until the 70s, which is why almost all the old players in that list are either from WI, England or Australia. WI were no longer influential after early 90s so you don't see a single person voting for Lara.
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Not sure where are you going with these logics. All of these are assumptions of bias at best. From a poster of your quality, expected better.
 
tempus123 said:
A lone spinner place and a lone all rounder place is usually there in the ODI sides. If Imran makes it to all time ODI sides ahead of Botham and Kapil, I agree. Murali will most likely make it to spinner's place.
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Murli's place isn't guranteed, just like Imran's isn't either. Saqlain Mushtaq was a mighty fine spinner and some might prefer Warne over Murli in this format too.

Funny how you agree with this but some other people are the ones that have blown up.

Mobashir said:
Wow, what's happening this morning here?
Are you ok?
Imran was never as good as Murali in ODI cricket. Murli is a champion ODI cricketer. Imran is just a very good ODI cricketer.

You don't have to make things up to proove Imran is the best asian cricketer ever, that's a no contest.
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You are the same guy that places Pietersen and Sachin at the same level, right? :))

Imran as a complete package is as big an ODI player as Murali is.

freelance_cricketer said:
All round stats are overrated. Eventually people judge you by your skill at one competency, either batting or bowling. Fact is Imran is one of the best bowlers of all time in a bowling friendly era and a great captain. He was inferior to bowlers in terms of pure ability in his own era and hence he wont ever be considered as greatest. Greatness cannot be accumulated but has to be substantial. Its not a 2+ 2 better than 3 thing. 3 is still a greater number and a greater cricketer even if 2 beats him on aggregate. Jack of all trades is never greater than master of one.

Bradman, Warne, Tendulkar,Viv, Marshal etc could all claim to be greatest in one skill and hence rated above Imran usually
Click to expand...

This is coming from the guy who rates Sachin as the best batsman of all time because he was a better ODI batsman than Bradman and Sobers.

The double standards are high in this thread.
 
Imran is quite underrated in ODIs. He averaged 22-23 for most of his career, only towards the end did his average climb to 26 because he was way past it.

A clean striker of the ball who could provide impetus later in the innings or come in early to rebuild.
 
ChachaCricket said:
Imran is quite underrated in ODIs. He averaged 22-23 for most of his career, only towards the end did his average climb to 26 because he was way past it.

A clean striker of the ball who could provide impetus later in the innings or come in early to rebuild.
Click to expand...

Very underrated if people who consider him better than Bradman in tests are not even willing to put him at Murali's level in ODIs.

Also a World Cup winning captain and like I said, played a match-winning innings in the final.
 
ChachaCricket said:
Name 5 better.
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I would say the top three are Bradman, Sobers and Richards.

I personally would put Imran at 4, but you would have to factor in my bias. Obviously, me being a Pakistani and Imran being my cricketing idol growing up, undoubtedly affects my judgement, as his performances had greater significance for me than say a neutral.
 
ChachaCricket said:
Imran is quite underrated in ODIs. He averaged 22-23 for most of his career, only towards the end did his average climb to 26 because he was way past it.

A clean striker of the ball who could provide impetus later in the innings or come in early to rebuild.
Click to expand...

No he is not, he was not a great ODI player.. He still bowled very well but his batting really never worried anyone... Kapil's batting was far more dangerous ( 175 ag Zim )

He was still very good in 87 world cup but was way past his prime in 92, and yeah that SF knock was not great either but i think God's had chosen him to win the 92 cup, gave him a rain break against England and then that farcical South African exit and then Akram's two beauties....

The way Pak posters hate slow batting these days and throw hate at misbah, i don't know whether they would have liked seeing Imran bat in limited overs...
 
leg-side-flick said:
No he is not, he was not a great ODI player.. He still bowled very well but his batting really never worried anyone... Kapil's batting was far more dangerous ( 175 ag Zim )

He was still very good in 87 world cup but was way past his prime in 92, and yeah that SF knock was not great either but i think God's had chosen him to win the 92 cup, gave him a rain break against England and then that farcical South African exit and then Akram's two beauties....

The way Pak posters hate slow batting these days and throw hate at misbah, i don't know whether they would have liked seeing Imran bat in limited overs...
Click to expand...

Right.. in fact that SF innings was so slow it almost put Pakistan out of the game. Knowledgeable posters on this forum claim it was the foundation for Inzy to launch his attack on.. lol.
 
leg-side-flick said:
No he is not, he was not a great ODI player.. He still bowled very well but his batting really never worried anyone... Kapil's batting was far more dangerous ( 175 ag Zim )

He was still very good in 87 world cup but was way past his prime in 92, and yeah that SF knock was not great either but i think God's had chosen him to win the 92 cup, gave him a rain break against England and then that farcical South African exit and then Akram's two beauties....

The way Pak posters hate slow batting these days and throw hate at misbah, i don't know whether they would have liked seeing Imran bat in limited overs...
Click to expand...

You do know Imran and Misbah were in completely different generations. Misbah played in the generation in which people started hitting 200s.

Also, Just because Kapil had a more aggressive approach does not necessarily mean Imran was NOT A GOOD ODI PLAYER or a batsman. To even suggest such a thing is preposterous. He's still statistically better than most allrounders in ODIs, Kapil included.
 
tempus123 said:
Right.. in fact that SF innings was so slow it almost put Pakistan out of the game. Knowledgeable posters on this forum claim it was the foundation for Inzy to launch his attack on.. lol.
Click to expand...

That was an atrocious innings.

We were pretty much out of the game when Imran got out. But because we won no one remembers it.

Probably one of the worst innings by a Pakistani in a big game.
 
TheNightWatchman said:
You do know Imran and Misbah were in completely different generations. Misbah played in the generation in which people started hitting 200s.

Also, Just because Kapil had a more aggressive approach does not necessarily mean Imran was NOT A GOOD ODI PLAYER or a batsman. To even suggest such a thing is preposterous. He's still statistically better than most allrounders in ODIs, Kapil included.
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Lol at statistically better part.. seriously if anyone takes Imran ahead of Kapil in an ODI side as an allrounder, I would be surprised.. as much as if someone had done the reverse in a Test side.
 
tempus123 said:
Lol at statistically better part.. seriously if anyone takes Imran ahead of Kapil in an ODI side as an allrounder, I would be surprised.. as much as if someone had done the reverse in a Test side.
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Kapil was agressive, but he had an Afridi-like tendency to get out and thus an Afridi-like average. Imran had a more subtle approach. Yes, he was atrociously slow at times. But he also proved he could play the steady hand after an early wicket. They were very similar with the bowl however.
Arguably not much to seperate the 2 in ODIs. Even though Imran averaged 10 runs more.

But he was head and shoulders above Kapil in tests.
So allround Imran is still better than Kapil.

Note: The post is "greatest cricketer of all time". Not "greatest ODI player of all time."
 
TheNightWatchman said:
Kapil was agressive, but he had an Afridi-like tendency to get out and thus an Afridi-like average. Imran had a more subtle approach. Yes, he was atrociously slow at times. But he also proved he could play the steady hand after an early wicket. They were very similar with the bowl however.
Arguably not much to seperate the 2 in ODIs. Even though Imran averaged 10 runs more.

But he was head and shoulders above Kapil in tests.
So allround Imran is still better than Kapil.

Note: The post is "greatest cricketer of all time". Not "greatest ODI player of all time."
Click to expand...

and greatest cricketer criterion includes ODIs too.. if you consider that it's not "greatest Test player" thread, and lol again at comparing Kapil with Afridi.
 
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tempus123 said:
and greatest cricketer criterion includes ODIs too.. if you consider that it's not "greatest Test player" thread, and lol again at comparing Kapil with Afridi.
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The thread is not about greatest ODI cricketer and test cricketer seperately. It's greatest cricketer. So far Imran has a pretty healthy claim. Sobers and Bradman haven't played ODIs.
So tell me one cricketer who has played better than Imran with BAT AND BALL in TESTS AND ODIS (since you so desperately want to include ODIs we will disclude Sobers).
 
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TheNightWatchman said:
The thread is not about greatest ODI cricketer and test cricketer seperately. It's greatest cricketer. So far Imran has a pretty healthy claim. Sobers and Bradman haven't played ODIs.
So tell me one cricketer who has played as good with BAT AND BALL in TESTS AND ODIS (since you so desperately want to include ODIs we will disclude Sobers).
Click to expand...

If you include ODIs and Tests both, I think Viv Richards, Sachin Tendulkar and Muralitharan will claim to be the greatest cricketers of all time. Will be hard to look past these three players. I wouldn't rule out Wasim and Imran too.
 
Stallion__ said:
For a 12 year period

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround



Difference of batting and bowling averages in Sobers' case = 31.66

Difference of batting and bowling averages in Imran's case = 30.32
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You dint get my point , i wasnt talking about difference rather being exceptional in both batting and bowling . I would any day take a player who avg 52 as a batsman and 19 as a bowler then 65 as a batsman and 35 as a bowler.Yes as captain imran avg 52 as a batsman and 19 as a bowler . The difference is 33 with 11 MOM and 8 MOS Awards.
 
tempus123 said:
If you include ODIs and Tests both, I think Viv Richards, Sachin Tendulkar and Muralitharan will claim to be the greatest cricketers of all time. Will be hard to look past these three players. I wouldn't rule out Wasim and Imran too.
Click to expand...

You still didn't answer my question. Tell me one cricketer who has played better than Imran with BAT AND BALL in TESTS AND ODIS.

Individually as batsmen and bowlers SRT, Viv, Murali, McGrath, Wasim were respectively the best at their craft. But Imran was good at both.
 
Imran was a good ODI batsman for his time. Do people know what strike-rates were in those days? Doesn't seem like it.

As a bowler, he was better than Kapil and Botham. His career average doesn't do him justice in this regard, since he turned in to a batsman who bowls a bit towads the end.

And of course, that 70 odd in the World Cup final, winning it for Pakistan, is a more significant innings than most of the guys being compared with him, ever played.
 
leg-side-flick said:
No he is not, he was not a great ODI player.. He still bowled very well but his batting really never worried anyone... Kapil's batting was far more dangerous ( 175 ag Zim )

He was still very good in 87 world cup but was way past his prime in 92, and yeah that SF knock was not great either but i think God's had chosen him to win the 92 cup, gave him a rain break against England and then that farcical South African exit and then Akram's two beauties....

The way Pak posters hate slow batting these days and throw hate at misbah, i don't know whether they would have liked seeing Imran bat in limited overs...
Click to expand...

Average of 22-23 for majority of your career is not great? Kapil was the better ODI batsman and I've never said otherwise.

Exactly my point. He was past it in the 92 WC. His captaincy was more valuable than his batting or bowling which is what he's lauded for.

Surprisingly they both ended with the same SR. Imran's approach could've been justified in his era but Misbah was doing the same thing in 2015, lol.
 
TheNightWatchman said:
You still didn't answer my question. Tell me one cricketer who has played better than Imran with BAT AND BALL in TESTS AND ODIS.
Click to expand...

IIRC Mudasser was a better ODI all-rounder than Imran :-; and certainly the better test batter.
 
TheNightWatchman said:
The thread is not about greatest ODI cricketer and test cricketer seperately. It's greatest cricketer. So far Imran has a pretty healthy claim. Sobers and Bradman haven't played ODIs.
So tell me one cricketer who has played better than Imran with BAT AND BALL in TESTS AND ODIS (since you so desperately want to include ODIs we will disclude Sobers).
Click to expand...

What a nonsensical question. Can you tell me who has played better than Kohli with the bat in TESTS, ODIS and T20s? Does that make him the greatest batsman ever? If some player is better than Imran with the bat or the ball by a significant margin (to overshadow Imran’s bowling/batting), than it doesn’t matter if Imran is better than him in the other discipline.
 
Robert said:
IIRC Mudasser was a better ODI all-rounder than Imran :-; and certainly the better test batter.
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The fact that Mudassar had lesser SR than Gavasker and similar to that of Tavare with bowling ability not much greater than Stuart Binny don't make it a subtle enough attempt for me to appreciate.
 
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How to make a blockbuster thread on PP: Insert any one of the following names in thread title: Imran Khan, SRT, Don Bradman
 
Sachin136 said:
What a nonsensical question. Can you tell me who has played better than Kohli with the bat in TESTS, ODIS and T20s? Does that make him the greatest batsman ever? If some player is better than Imran with the bat or the ball by a significant margin (to overshadow Imran’s bowling/batting), than it doesn’t matter if Imran is better than him in the other discipline.
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Calm down. I was answering the guy who was saying ODIs and Tests BOTH should be the criteria. I don't agree with that myself. I don't think Imran is the greatest.
Nobody has completely overshadowed Imran's batting or bowling in tests btw. He could make it into any team as a specialist bowler or batsman.
 
Not even the greatest from Asia bcoz that tag goes to Sachin. Not even the greatest captain from Asia as he was superceeded by a long margin by MSD. So the answer to the question posed by OP is No. But I do not want to debate this topic further as I think there has been many debates about this in PP. Imran was a great great cricketer and a legend. Lets leave it like that.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
 
Indian_Supporter said:
Not even the greatest from Asia bcoz that tag goes to Sachin. Not even the greatest captain from Asia as he was superceeded by a long margin by MSD. So the answer to the question posed by OP is No. But I do not want to debate this topic further as I think there has been many debates about this in PP. Imran was a great great cricketer and a legend. Lets leave it like that.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Better than Sachin as a cricketer, better than Dhoni as a captain and better than Wasim as a bowler.

Lets leave it at that.
 
TheNightWatchman said:
You still didn't answer my question. Tell me one cricketer who has played better than Imran with BAT AND BALL in TESTS AND ODIS.

Individually as batsmen and bowlers SRT, Viv, Murali, McGrath, Wasim were respectively the best at their craft. But Imran was good at both.
Click to expand...

Earning 50 marks in both disciplines is not necessarily better than earning 70 marks in one and 10 in the other.
 
Bilal7 said:
Imran was a good ODI batsman for his time. Do people know what strike-rates were in those days? Doesn't seem like it.

As a bowler, he was better than Kapil and Botham. His career average doesn't do him justice in this regard, since he turned in to a batsman who bowls a bit towads the end.

And of course, that 70 odd in the World Cup final, winning it for Pakistan, is a more significant innings than most of the guys being compared with him, ever played.
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LOL.. 70 odd in final was good but it was not legendary match winning innings like the ones played in other finals.. also Kapil's 175 was way better..
 
Bilal7 said:
Better than Sachin as a cricketer, better than Dhoni as a captain and better than Wasim as a bowler.

Lets leave it at that.
Click to expand...

Better than Sachin as a cricketer if you leave captaincy out ? It's debatable.. but what [MENTION=139315]Indian_Supporter[/MENTION] said was not debatable (second part of leaving at that)
 
TheNightWatchman said:
Calm down. I was answering the guy who was saying ODIs and Tests BOTH should be the criteria. I don't agree with that myself. I don't think Imran is the greatest.
Nobody has completely overshadowed Imran's batting or bowling in tests btw. He could make it into any team as a specialist bowler or batsman.
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will make it into any team as a specialist batsman ? Arre bhai kya fanboy goli kha kar aaye ho ?
 
Bilal7 said:
Better than Sachin as a cricketer, better than Dhoni as a captain and better than Wasim as a bowler.

Lets leave it at that.
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You’re saying this as if it is 100% true. It may be true but there are many experts who rate Sachin as a better cricketer, Dhoni as a better captain and Wasim as a better bowler.
 
Sachin136 said:
You’re saying this as if it is 100% true. It may be true but there are many experts who rate Sachin as a better cricketer, Dhoni as a better captain and Wasim as a better bowler.
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Yes, he is making it look like word of God.. when it's a subjective opinion. Many don't even include Imran in their world XI (though understandable due to Sobers, and it doesn't prove he was not better than others included) but it proves that he could not have got into any world XI purely on his bowling while Wasim usually got in.
 
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