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[VIDEOS] Religion or Atheism?

hadi123

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As a teenage boy living in Western Culture it's inevitable that I am starting to doubt the existence of Allah/God?

Obviously, if Allah was as all-loving as he was made out to be, the situation in the likes of Syria, Yemen, Iraq, which are Muslim countries would not be the way it was ie children being murdered brutally everyday at the hands of the cowardly terrorists. But Allah is obviously not all loving, or all good which is a good point against the existence of God

Allah obviously isn't all powerful either because when he would have designed the world and man kind, not everything was perfect. The Earth was not designed perfectly, for instance, we all know that Earthquakes are caused by tectonic plates when subduction occurs and so there are obviously some flaws. Also, in Humans, there are many people with defects from birth such as haemophillia, progeria, blindness, deafness etc so he would not be perfect either. Let's not forget tragedies such as cancer and heart attacks that he can not stop. This is another good point against his existence.

Furthermore, there is so much proof for alternatives of how the World began etc. We have micro cosmic background radiation which is evidence for Big Bang whereas there is no evidence for God. We also have evolution proof so how can there really be a God?

Discuss, be respectful at all times because I respect that everyone can have their own views


Discuss
 
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As a teenage boy living in Western Culture it's inevitable that I am starting to doubt the existence of Allah/God?

Obviously, if Allah was as all-loving as he was made out to be, the situation in the likes of Syria, Yemen, Iraq, which are Muslim countries would not be the way it was ie children being murdered brutally everyday at the hands of the cowardly terrorists. But Allah is obviously not all loving, or all good which is a good point against the existence of God

Allah obviously isn't all powerful either because when he would have designed the world and man kind, not everything was perfect. The Earth was not designed perfectly, for instance, we all know that Earthquakes are caused by tectonic plates when subduction occurs and so there are obviously some flaws. Also, in Humans, there are many people with defects from birth such as haemophillia, progeria, blindness, deafness etc so he would not be perfect either. Let's not forget tragedies such as cancer and heart attacks that he can not stop. This is another good point against his existence.

Furthermore, there is so much proof for alternatives of how the World began etc. We have micro cosmic background radiation which is evidence for Big Bang whereas there is no evidence for God. We also have evolution proof so how can there really be a God?

Discuss, be respectful at all times because I respect that everyone can have their own views


Discuss


Generally there are differing explanations for why God allows suffering...

1 - Free Will

If God is all powerful (omnipotent), all knowing (omniscient), and all-good, (omnibenevolent) then how can all of lifes terrible things happen to people...

And this is where the link to free will comes in...and that God doesn't interfere with peoples choices...so even when humans commit atrocities God sits back and allows human beings to exert their free will...

Allowing evil to happen doesn't make one evil is the argument...but to be frank this argument doesn't work because we know from the texts that God generally loves interfering in the lives of man...think Noah and the Flood and Lot for instance...

2 - Punishment

Some argue that suffering is God's wrath and is a message to people to improve...so when natural disasters happen or Muslims suffer you will get some who say we have moved away from God...some strands of Jews say the Holocaust was a collective punishment from God etc...
 
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You are not told to argue by Allah swt , you duty is to convey the message , that is all.



Life is not that long , they will soon see the truth , but it will be too late by then.

You are one of few posters here who has always maintained politeness ,I can never really tell what ticks you off but I'm assuming its religion.

Probably being on other side of the scale, Yours and [MENTION=129767]speed[/MENTION] posters' faith in religion is respectable.
 
Religious Texts can never beat Science.

Religion is faith. Some believe Allah exists, some believe in Jesus or Krishna. Its all in their head. Not an ounce of evidence to any of it.

Its funny how all religious people who criticize Science all day, but run to a doctor who uses Science to get healthy.
 
Religious Texts can never beat Science.

Religion is faith. Some believe Allah exists, some believe in Jesus or Krishna. Its all in their head. Not an ounce of evidence to any of it.

Its funny how all religious people who criticize Science all day, but run to a doctor who uses Science to get healthy.

Yes many of the most famous scientists eg Hawkin, Dawkins, Einstein all have proof there is no God. Science will always win but I still respect religious people as long as they aren't too extreme
 
Yes many of the most famous scientists eg Hawkin, Dawkins, Einstein all have proof there is no God. Science will always win but I still respect religious people as long as they aren't too extreme


How would you define too extreme religious people ?
 
Yes many of the most famous scientists eg Hawkin, Dawkins, Einstein all have proof there is no God. Science will always win but I still respect religious people as long as they aren't too extreme

Really, care to share this? Remember you used the word proof.
 
Religious Texts can never beat Science.

Religion is faith. Some believe Allah exists, some believe in Jesus or Krishna. Its all in their head. Not an ounce of evidence to any of it.

Its funny how all religious people who criticize Science all day, but run to a doctor who uses Science to get healthy.


Do you think religion is at war with science or science is at war with religion ?

Please give examples from Hinduism.


How and why you think that religion is there to beat Science ?
 
Yes many of the most famous scientists eg Hawkin, Dawkins, Einstein all have proof there is no God. Science will always win but I still respect religious people as long as they aren't too extreme

Yes, please substantiate this claim. My reading of the issue tells me that science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God.
 
Yes many of the most famous scientists eg Hawkin, Dawkins, Einstein all have proof there is no God. Science will always win but I still respect religious people as long as they aren't too extreme


There is no scientific evidence of existence or absence of God and there will never ever be such evidence.


Quran says in its start :



" UNSEEN "



Dr Abdus Salam said that it is not mandatory that for one to have Faith in Allah he has to be a Physicist.



Now in religious systems (any) you can only feel the unseen if :


1. Your prayers are accepted.

2. You become a Saint & God communicates with you in form of True dreams, Kashaf or Roya.


That's it. Even than you cannot present any evidence that God communicates with you during Sleep or while you are awake with your Soul and he told you this.



You cannot prove to any Scientist even than.



But if God tells you something about future and that thing happens in future than you, your brain and heart will be certain that Yes God exists.



Look at the Prophecies of Prophets. Why the geberations after thousands of years accepted the next Prophet in chain ? Because they felt that those prophecies were fulfilled.


Pehlay Ali RA bano (one example) than Khuda ka jalwa bhee aapko naseeb hojaey ga. As they say Peer banno Peer-parast na bano. Once you achieve that level than you won't like to get certificates from others.



Now you may ask bhaee kya aap se Khuda humkalaam hogaya hai ? Aap ne dekh liya ? I ll be True. No. Not Yet. I am trying. But some of my prayers have been answered unbelievably so It re-instated what I was told and what I read.


To be very honest and blunt, as an adult, student of science, living in 2017 if none of my prayers would have been answered than I wouldn't have cared what my parents and religious scholars said and what the books and holy books said. I wouldn't have believed in any God, wouldn't be fulfilling any religious obligation prayers, fast, sacrificing money in way of God, abstaining from major sins. Nothing. Nothing at all. And I would have been an Aethiest surely.


As a child growing up from the age of 2-3 to the age of say 16 you are told do this do this (religious duties) by your parents, religious teachers etc to develop a connection with GOD. Still they keep a check on you, monitor you, make sure you are following that path until say 18 or 25. Than sooner or later you've got to have any experience after putting in those hard yards of years. If you have an experience you strive for more if not than atleast mein tou kbi sunni sunaee baat (here say) pe marr k bhee believe na kerun na kerta.


My effort, my investment might not have been 100 %. Might not be even 80 % but it did pay off. For that I am thankful to Allah, than my parents and than those other hands who played their part.



Forget it that in 2017 any Scientist, Pper, friend, relative or paremts siblings or religious texts will prove you GOD's existence. If you have strived, have been adequately trained and monitored than sooner or later you will experience God's existence. If not than I am afraid you will join Aethiest community. So I would suggest you to strive and pray. I pray that you strive hard enough and experience it.
 

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Yes many of the most famous scientists eg Hawkin, Dawkins, Einstein all have proof there is no God. Science will always win but I still respect religious people as long as they aren't too extreme

Weak argument dude...they haven't provided proof that there is no God...they have said there is no proof there is one...
 
Mistakes, blunders and misinformation in sacred books of all organized religions are direct evidences that these religion are fake.
That should be good enough for any reasonable person to make an objective decision.

99.999% of people who are currently religious are born in to that specific religion or sect. And religion become part of your identity. And it's close to impossible to reject one's own.

Apart from western europe, most athiest actually did a conscious effort and left religion.
 
You can't argue with either.

An Atheist will wonder how to argue against a religious person and vice-versa
 
I'm not sure what OP is looking for.

In science also, we look at the falling apples and deduce the presence of the unseen and invisible force of gravity. Similarly, science contains lots of unobservables like atoms, electrostatic charges, and many others.

In religion, we look at the organization and coherence of the world, the in-built moral sense of man, and many other signs, and from these we deduce the existence of God.

Bertrand Russel's Theory of Descriptions tried to fix this fallacy by introducing logical positivism. The main idea was that every scientific concept that refers to unobservables can be reduced to its observable implications. So when we talk about (unobservable) gravity, what we really mean is the (observable) implication that the Earth moves around the sun in an elliptical orbit. In contrast, statements about God, angels, the hereafter, etc. had no observable implications and hence were meaningless.

Note the contrast between the positivist denial of the unseen and the Quranic assertion that it contains guidance for those who believe in the unseen.

In any case, logical positivism had a spectacular crash. Many of the central ideas of positivism proved to be indefensible on closer examination. For example, my feeling of happiness is observable to me, and as factual as the sun shining in the sky, but it is not observable and hence subjective to others.
 
Its hard to prove non-existence of GOD but its easy to refute religious versions and their texts of GOD,be smart to choose your debate,you would find it harder to debate with an agnostic(incase they even debate) than an atheist.
 
People use their hands to type what ever they want to type, they also use their brains/minds while typing. They feel so powerful. Just imagine how powerful is He who has given you all these means to use?
 
As a teenage boy living in Western Culture it's inevitable that I am starting to doubt the existence of Allah/God?

Obviously, if Allah was as all-loving as he was made out to be, the situation in the likes of Syria, Yemen, Iraq, which are Muslim countries would not be the way it was ie children being murdered brutally everyday at the hands of the cowardly terrorists. But Allah is obviously not all loving, or all good which is a good point against the existence of God

Allah obviously isn't all powerful either because when he would have designed the world and man kind, not everything was perfect. The Earth was not designed perfectly, for instance, we all know that Earthquakes are caused by tectonic plates when subduction occurs and so there are obviously some flaws. Also, in Humans, there are many people with defects from birth such as haemophillia, progeria, blindness, deafness etc so he would not be perfect either. Let's not forget tragedies such as cancer and heart attacks that he can not stop. This is another good point against his existence.

Furthermore, there is so much proof for alternatives of how the World began etc. We have micro cosmic background radiation which is evidence for Big Bang whereas there is no evidence for God. We also have evolution proof so how can there really be a God?

Discuss, be respectful at all times because I respect that everyone can have their own views


Discuss

Brother, you need to consult a reliable scholar, what you have typed here is typical stuff from atheists you often read. All you need is a good Islamic scholar and he can easily give you the answers you are looking for. This is a so serious matter that you should not take it lightly at all. This is my advice to you, rest is up to you.
 
"Is there a God?" - I think there is no fool proof answer to this.

May be ... God is just a concept that man created to reinforce the ideas of good and bad conduct and to maintain order in the society. Unfortunately we don't do good acts just because they are good. But more people would do such acts if they are told that the Supreme being is watching and judging them by their actions. And that's how, I assume, multiple faiths and religions came into existence. It also does a good job of keeping people together by giving them a sense of belonging. etc. I am no expert, but these are some thoughts.

As far as I am concerned, I don't consider myself an atheist. Yes, I am saying that despite the above text. Because I take comfort in belief that God does exist. It gives me confidence when I am down that dear God is just checking my faith in him and eventually He will help me overcome challenges. My religion helps me stay optimistic, positive and compassionate. My religion keeps me away from vices. And that's the reason, I still believe in religion.

When some people argue that theirs is "one true" religion, or may be "superior" religion; it strongly conflicts with my belief and I have no respect for any such ideology - even if such people belong to my own religion.
 
Religion can never be proven logically and will always fail if you compare it to science, and that is why it is about faith.

There is a reason why the vast majority of top scientists in today's world are atheists. My advice to you is to not mingle science and religion if you want your faith in the latter to remain strong.

If you have faith in God you find out after death that there is nothing, you will not lose anything. You will just be dead.

However, if you do not have faith in God and you find out after death that everything that Islam told you about was true, what will you do?

The bottom line is that it is better (and safer) to be a believer than to be a non-believer.
 
Religion can never be proven logically and will always fail if you compare it to science, and that is why it is about faith.

There is a reason why the vast majority of top scientists in today's world are atheists. My advice to you is to not mingle science and religion if you want your faith in the latter to remain strong.

If you have faith in God you find out after death that there is nothing, you will not lose anything. You will just be dead.

However, if you do not have faith in God and you find out after death that everything that Islam told you about was true, what will you do?

The bottom line is that it is better (and safer) to be a believer than to be a non-believer.

Could not have put it better.

Even as a Muslim, i question everything i have been taught and have looked into why i have been brought up to do things in a certain way. My findings always came to this conclusion....everything i do does not harm me and doing the opposite would.

Very simple example "dont drink"- No down side to not drinking.
 
Religion can never be proven logically and will always fail if you compare it to science, and that is why it is about faith.

There is a reason why the vast majority of top scientists in today's world are atheists. My advice to you is to not mingle science and religion if you want your faith in the latter to remain strong.

If you have faith in God you find out after death that there is nothing, you will not lose anything. You will just be dead.

However, if you do not have faith in God and you find out after death that everything that Islam told you about was true, what will you do?

The bottom line is that it is better (and safer) to be a believer than to be a non-believer.

Agreed.

But what if we find out after death that some other religion is true? We are still screwed.

So by being religious we are only improving our odds by a LITTLE. :P
 
Religion can never be proven logically and will always fail if you compare it to science, and that is why it is about faith.

There is a reason why the vast majority of top scientists in today's world are atheists. My advice to you is to not mingle science and religion if you want your faith in the latter to remain strong.

If you have faith in God you find out after death that there is nothing, you will not lose anything. You will just be dead.

However, if you do not have faith in God and you find out after death that everything that Islam told you about was true, what will you do?

The bottom line is that it is better (and safer) to be a believer than to be a non-believer.

How do you define what is logical and what isn't. Our intelligence is limited, even the smartest person in World only has the intelligence which is given to him, no more than that.

There are scientic factors mentioned in Quran which people didn't understand at that time or even later, but with better technology scientists have understood now, for instance how a child is formed in the womb.

So if the scientist are atheists doesn't mean they have the correct answers. The correct answers are found in Quran. With time more and more people would find out that.
 
Do you think religion is at war with science or science is at war with religion ?

Please give examples from Hinduism.


How and why you think that religion is there to beat Science ?

The more science discovers, the more it will be disproving what what religious texts have been telling us for thousands of years. They will have an uneasy co-existence.

Science will always be a pest for strong believers.
 
The more science discovers, the more it will be disproving what what religious texts have been telling us for thousands of years. They will have an uneasy co-existence.

Science will always be a pest for strong believers.

So true. Reminds me of that quote from Neil Tyson, "God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance".

However, having said that, religion is a belief and it doesn't have to be true. As long as people are happy following it with no adverse effects on society, so be it.
 
How do you define what is logical and what isn't. Our intelligence is limited, even the smartest person in World only has the intelligence which is given to him, no more than that.

There are scientic factors mentioned in Quran which people didn't understand at that time or even later, but with better technology scientists have understood now, for instance how a child is formed in the womb.

So if the scientist are atheists doesn't mean they have the correct answers. The correct answers are found in Quran. With time more and more people would find out that.

The title is religion and atheist. Not Islam and atheist.

Religious people fight among themselves over who is true God. You mentioned Quran, some other will mention bible.... Or Geeta....

We atheist have at least one aspect common.

We don't believe unless it is proven.

If one wants to have a debate, at least religious people should come to a common ground so there is some basis to argue.
 
Religion can never be proven logically and will always fail if you compare it to science, and that is why it is about faith.

There is a reason why the vast majority of top scientists in today's world are atheists. My advice to you is to not mingle science and religion if you want your faith in the latter to remain strong.

If you have faith in God you find out after death that there is nothing, you will not lose anything. You will just be dead.

However, if you do not have faith in God and you find out after death that everything that Islam told you about was true, what will you do?

The bottom line is that it is better (and safer) to be a believer than to be a non-believer.

I think the same logic is applied in Pascal's Wager.

One of my favourite quotes on the topic of God, is the below quote which is usually attributed to the great Greek Philosopher King Marcus Aurelius. To me it is the most profound one and it shows such a great depth of the man and his thoughts.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
 
Religion can never be proven logically and will always fail if you compare it to science, and that is why it is about faith.

There is a reason why the vast majority of top scientists in today's world are atheists. My advice to you is to not mingle science and religion if you want your faith in the latter to remain strong.

If you have faith in God you find out after death that there is nothing, you will not lose anything. You will just be dead.

However, if you do not have faith in God and you find out after death that everything that Islam told you about was true, what will you do?

The bottom line is that it is better (and safer) to be a believer than to be a non-believer.

This line of thinking is very untypical of you.

Not that it's wrong in any way, but I find it very uncharacteristic of you in general.
 

Hello [MENTION=57506]hadi123[/MENTION]. I have pondered on this for thirty years. The conclusion I came to is that you can have the scienctific method and God too - just don't conflate them. Separate them in your mind, for they are different tools for different jobs.

Use science to explain the physical world. Use God to explain how to behave decently to others. Or use a humanist approach for the latter. It is up to you. I don't care what people believe as long as that belief system motivates them to be kind and loving to others.

Me - I don't believe in any creation myth. I believe that the world can be described as a quantum energy system as well as a physical object. So I am both physical object and quantum energy system too. When I die I don't think I will go to Heaven in any form, as I don't think such a thing exists. I think my energy will be reabsorbed into the systems surrounding me - my family and friends. So in a sense, I will still be here.
 
As a teenage boy living in Western Culture it's inevitable that I am starting to doubt the existence of Allah/God?

Obviously, if Allah was as all-loving as he was made out to be, the situation in the likes of Syria, Yemen, Iraq, which are Muslim countries would not be the way it was ie children being murdered brutally everyday at the hands of the cowardly terrorists. But Allah is obviously not all loving, or all good which is a good point against the existence of God

Allah obviously isn't all powerful either because when he would have designed the world and man kind, not everything was perfect. The Earth was not designed perfectly, for instance, we all know that Earthquakes are caused by tectonic plates when subduction occurs and so there are obviously some flaws. Also, in Humans, there are many people with defects from birth such as haemophillia, progeria, blindness, deafness etc so he would not be perfect either. Let's not forget tragedies such as cancer and heart attacks that he can not stop. This is another good point against his existence.

Furthermore, there is so much proof for alternatives of how the World began etc. We have micro cosmic background radiation which is evidence for Big Bang whereas there is no evidence for God. We also have evolution proof so how can there really be a God?

Discuss, be respectful at all times because I respect that everyone can have their own views


Discuss

No need to discuss, sounds like you have it all figured out. Good luck to you on your journey and remember, life is for living, not getting vexed over unprovable theories. Unless you enjoy it, which it seems quite a few do, in which case knock yourself out.
 
I apologize for saying that the scientists have "proof" but I was in a rush. What I meant to say is that they don't believe in God and their theories as to why God is improbable are a lot more scientific than some of the alternative arguments for why there could be a God eg in the Quran etc.

One thing that really grinds my gears is when people refuse to accept evolution because evolution is more or less a fact as opposed to a belief. It's like refusing to believe 1+1 is 2
 
My only suggestion to OP is to deeply analyze the issue of philosophy of science and religion. Read Bertrand Russell, A.J. Ayer, Thomas Aquinas, and Imam Ghazali. This requires a lot of introspection and personal study. Do not listen to your peers who have no logical ground to deny religion. By their logic, they would deny natural science too (which is based on many unobservables).
 
I apologize for saying that the scientists have "proof" but I was in a rush. What I meant to say is that they don't believe in God and their theories as to why God is improbable are a lot more scientific than some of the alternative arguments for why there could be a God eg in the Quran etc.

One thing that really grinds my gears is when people refuse to accept evolution because evolution is more or less a fact as opposed to a belief. It's like refusing to believe 1+1 is 2

If you are a fan of science like me, then you would know that there is no such thing as 'more or less a fact'. There is a either a fact or a theory.

In any case, if you want to believe in the theory of evolution then you should quite happily do so. Why grind your gears over what other people think? This is why evolution has given us all individual brains so we can think for ourselves.
 
I apologize for saying that the scientists have "proof" but I was in a rush. What I meant to say is that they don't believe in God and their theories as to why God is improbable are a lot more scientific than some of the alternative arguments for why there could be a God eg in the Quran etc.

One thing that really grinds my gears is when people refuse to accept evolution because evolution is more or less a fact as opposed to a belief. It's like refusing to believe 1+1 is 2

Muslim scholars such as Hussein al-Jisr and Ahmad Medhat in the 1880s supported evolution. Before Darwin, al-Jahiz and others proposed rudimentary evolutionary theories in the ninth century.

Evolution does not discuss the origins of the Universe. No one yet understands this beginning. For most Muslims, the beginning was God. After the beginning, the rules of logic and science led to the development of the Universe and beyond.

The Quraan asks humans to observe and contemplate the world while celebrating the pursuit of knowledge. It does not invalidate scientific findings. Science allows us to question and discover how the world works and the Koran provides the moral guidelines for doing so.

Muslims don't subscribe to the Christian creationist arguments. Islam is extremely tolerant of science.
 
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I apologize for saying that the scientists have "proof" but I was in a rush. What I meant to say is that they don't believe in God and their theories as to why God is improbable are a lot more scientific than some of the alternative arguments for why there could be a God eg in the Quran etc.

One thing that really grinds my gears is when people refuse to accept evolution because evolution is more or less a fact as opposed to a belief. It's like refusing to believe 1+1 is 2

What's the theory that tells us that God is improbable? There's a difference between not knowing vs <50% probability.
 
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You are one of few posters here who has always maintained politeness ,I can never really tell what ticks you off but I'm assuming its religion.

Probably being on other side of the scale, Yours and [MENTION=129767]speed[/MENTION] posters' faith in religion is respectable.

Thanks .

I am part of other forums as well , there also there are some shia - sunni issues. I never had problems with them. There sunnis call me names because they feel I am shia :))

I maintain politeness because that is how we should conduct ourselves . I am not a prophet that whatever I say every one will have to accept me. There will always be difference of opinion.

If Allah swt wanted he could have made every one submit , if that was not what His plan was , why should it be mine? We can just give our side to others , if they are convinced using there own research and intellect , then it is fine , if they do not , it should not bother me. People have own free will after all.
 
Religion can never be proven logically and will always fail if you compare it to science, and that is why it is about faith.

There is a reason why the vast majority of top scientists in today's world are atheists. My advice to you is to not mingle science and religion if you want your faith in the latter to remain strong.

If you have faith in God you find out after death that there is nothing, you will not lose anything. You will just be dead.

However, if you do not have faith in God and you find out after death that everything that Islam told you about was true, what will you do?

The bottom line is that it is better (and safer) to be a believer than to be a non-believer.

But if a person has doubt in His heart , and pretends to be Muslim just to be on safe side , its a big mistake , because God knows what is in his heart.
 
I think the same logic is applied in Pascal's Wager.

One of my favourite quotes on the topic of God, is the below quote which is usually attributed to the great Greek Philosopher King Marcus Aurelius. To me it is the most profound one and it shows such a great depth of the man and his thoughts.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

Who will define what noble life is ? I mean from where one gets guidelines ?
 
Its hard to prove non-existence of GOD but its easy to refute religious versions and their texts of GOD,be smart to choose your debate,you would find it harder to debate with an agnostic(incase they even debate) than an atheist.

Can you refute the Quran? As you claim it's EASY don't use arguments you find on the internet but by your own logic and reasoning. Let's see how easy it is for you :)
 
I apologize for saying that the scientists have "proof" but I was in a rush. What I meant to say is that they don't believe in God and their theories as to why God is improbable are a lot more scientific than some of the alternative arguments for why there could be a God eg in the Quran etc.

One thing that really grinds my gears is when people refuse to accept evolution because evolution is more or less a fact as opposed to a belief. It's like refusing to believe 1+1 is 2

Evolution is a scientific theory but since Darwin it has been amended. Social Darwinism has been fully rejected now. Even if you accept Evolution this doesn't rule out a Creator.

It's simple really, do you believe the universe came about due to mere chance or do you believe an all powerful Creator created it? The latter makes more sense.

Following on if there is a Creator what was his purpose for Creation? Then we search the planet for this answer and come up the Quran, a living miracle. This explains all, there is nothing more to ponder unless you go back to believing everything is a product of chance, the laws of the universe and every complex thing inside it.
 
Religion can never be proven logically and will always fail if you compare it to science, and that is why it is about faith.

There is a reason why the vast majority of top scientists in today's world are atheists. My advice to you is to not mingle science and religion if you want your faith in the latter to remain strong.

If you have faith in God you find out after death that there is nothing, you will not lose anything. You will just be dead.

However, if you do not have faith in God and you find out after death that everything that Islam told you about was true, what will you do?

The bottom line is that it is better (and safer) to be a believer than to be a non-believer
.

Allah has not Promised Mercy for all his slaves, The turner of hearts is not aware of our hearts?, since when was Salvation based on mere odds.

It is funny when Allah has promised sustenance for his slaves yet they still ran after it, but What Allah has not promised for his salves I.e. mercy we have no desire to strive for it.

And when it is said to them, "Spend from that which Allah has provided for you," those who disbelieve say to those who believe, "Should we feed one whom, if Allah had willed, He would have fed? You are not but in clear error." (36:47)
 
Those trying to mix religion with science are actually doing a disservice to those genuinely seeking an answer the question of religion or not. In today's world, there is plenty of information widely accessible that debunks the notion that religion is in sync with science. It simply is not.

Instead, it's more productive to show that both religion and science have different roles to play in life. Science to show how the world works, religion to serve as a way of life to those that need doctrinal guidance. Having said that, I realize that it's not easy to keep the two clean.

Atheist, btw is nothing more than lack of belief in a God/religion. This is the default setting of all humans, until we are conditioned to believe in a religion. Choosing to be an atheist for most people just means questioning everything they have been taught by other humans, and deciding it no longer makes sense to them.
 
If you have faith in God you find out after death that there is nothing, you will not lose anything. You will just be dead.

However, if you do not have faith in God and you find out after death that everything that Islam told you about was true, what will you do?

The bottom line is that it is better (and safer) to be a believer than to be a non-believer.


RIP common sense.

1- What about time wasted in saying prayers (5 times a day, Friday prayer, Taraveeh), wasted money on Hajj, and wasted time, energy and Money on fasting!! (list is long)

2- Worse, if you wasted all (some of all mentioned above) and die just to come to realization that Hinduism was the right religion. and now stay in Narkh/Jahanum/Doozakh

Logical actions that I'd suggest, that:
- Do not give cancer medication to a healthy person. (Until tested and re-tested and diagnosed with cancer, sure go ahead with medication in this case.)
- Do not get excited before actually winning the lottery.

for smaller things, one can be casual,
but for important matters, be extra cautious.
 
As a teenage boy living in Western Culture it's inevitable that I am starting to doubt the existence of Allah/God?

Obviously, if Allah was as all-loving as he was made out to be, the situation in the likes of Syria, Yemen, Iraq, which are Muslim countries would not be the way it was ie children being murdered brutally everyday at the hands of the cowardly terrorists. But Allah is obviously not all loving, or all good which is a good point against the existence of God

Allah obviously isn't all powerful either because when he would have designed the world and man kind, not everything was perfect. The Earth was not designed perfectly, for instance, we all know that Earthquakes are caused by tectonic plates when subduction occurs and so there are obviously some flaws. Also, in Humans, there are many people with defects from birth such as haemophillia, progeria, blindness, deafness etc so he would not be perfect either. Let's not forget tragedies such as cancer and heart attacks that he can not stop. This is another good point against his existence.

Furthermore, there is so much proof for alternatives of how the World began etc. We have micro cosmic background radiation which is evidence for Big Bang whereas there is no evidence for God. We also have evolution proof so how can there really be a God?

Discuss, be respectful at all times because I respect that everyone can have their own views


Discuss

A very good talk from Dr. Shabir Ally on a very similar subject "Living in an Atheistic Society", watch from 10:45 mark onwards, he answers a few questions from Aitheistic point of view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK9XW35omBM&feature=youtu.be
 
As a teenage boy living in Western Culture it's inevitable that I am starting to doubt the existence of Allah/God?

Obviously, if Allah was as all-loving as he was made out to be, the situation in the likes of Syria, Yemen, Iraq, which are Muslim countries would not be the way it was ie children being murdered brutally everyday at the hands of the cowardly terrorists. But Allah is obviously not all loving, or all good which is a good point against the existence of God

Allah obviously isn't all powerful either because when he would have designed the world and man kind, not everything was perfect. The Earth was not designed perfectly, for instance, we all know that Earthquakes are caused by tectonic plates when subduction occurs and so there are obviously some flaws. Also, in Humans, there are many people with defects from birth such as haemophillia, progeria, blindness, deafness etc so he would not be perfect either. Let's not forget tragedies such as cancer and heart attacks that he can not stop. This is another good point against his existence.

Furthermore, there is so much proof for alternatives of how the World began etc. We have micro cosmic background radiation which is evidence for Big Bang whereas there is no evidence for God. We also have evolution proof so how can there really be a God?

Discuss, be respectful at all times because I respect that everyone can have their own views


Discuss

I'd say these are major misconceptions. How is the Earth not perfect? Forget about natural disasters because often they are either punishment from Allah or caused by our own actions such as global warming, climate change, deforestation etc etc.

Did you know that the Earth is found in that perfect orbit at which life can exist. Any closer to the sun and Earth would be too hot for life and any further and Earth would be too cold for life. The Earth takes almost exactly 365 days to orbit the sun and 24 hours to complete its rotation on its own axis. The Sun always rises from the East and sets in the West and the Earth always revolves anticlockwise. Are there ever any changes in these cycles? Which imperfections are you talking about?

Coming to humans, I was really surprised that you mentioned human beings as being imperfect. I'll discuss birth defects later because they are not manufacturing faults i.e they are not found in normal human beings. First of all, our brain is a miracle!!! Ever wondered how an infant learns a language and then goes on to speak it fluently? Ever wondered how we are able to learn to control our limbs? Ever wondered how the sweating mechanism helps us cool down and how shivering helps us increase our temperature? All these are related to the miracle that is the brain and it is this brain which has allowed us to learn and invent "Science" itself. How can you doubt a God-made creation while fully believing in "Science" which has been invented by human themselves?

Coming to birth defects, my belief is that these are either a test from God or something that is just written in your destiny. In fact, our brain (again a creation/miracle of Allah) has allowed us to venture into genetic engineering that promises to alter "harmful/wrong/bad" genes and replace them with "normal/useful/good" genes. Although genetic engineering is still in trial stages for humans but it promises to eliminate birth defects completely.

Most cases of heart attacks and cancer are self-inflicted through diet, lifestyle, habit, addiction etc etc, while only a few are passed on from parents. Again genes sometimes play a role in this but I've already explained that argument above.

I think most posters here have the wrong approach. They are seeking to "prove" religion and God through their imperfect practical methods. Nothing that we create or do is perfect so I don't think we can ever "prove" religion/God. The one thing that we can do is look at the signs provided by Allah. Zamzam (water) is one of them and it is an ongoing example of water that is eternal and is a bit different (more beneficial) than normal water. There many videos of thunderstorms, sandstorms etc etc stopping/slowing down near shrines and mosques.

In fact, I myself have witnessed the miracle of Noor (Divine Light). I saw just at the roof of the Kaaba and not me but many people around me saw it. I have its video with me (I'm not able to upload it on PP, any help will be appreciated). It was quite different to normal white light. It had tiny white granules emerging from it. That day, I knew that Allah has blessed me with evidence to strengthen my faith so I have never doubted my faith ever since. There are like a thousand videos where people have found the grave of a martyr and found his body in perfect condition. The best example I can give is of the Pharaoh who opposed Moses. His body was found to be really well preserved and his fingernails were found to be growing everyday. Allah has mentioned in the Quran that he will preserve the body of the Firaun (Pharaoh) as an example for all oppressive rulers.

I hope that my points are clear to understand. I have not given direct evidence from Quran or any website but you can find those on the internet. Feel free to ask any questions related to this.
 
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Can you refute the Quran? As you claim it's EASY don't use arguments you find on the internet but by your own logic and reasoning. Let's see how easy it is for you :)

Its easy to refute religious texts mate logically google is not even needed this is the reason for doubt creeping in so many believers off late from any religion because they are not able to understand logic of things they are performing in the name of religion ,but the forum policy doesn't allow us to discuss the same so lets leave it at that.Its your faith don't put it on pedestal of rationalism,it will not pass,rather keep it separate and it will serve the purpose that its supposed to.
 
Thanks .

I am part of other forums as well , there also there are some shia - sunni issues. I never had problems with them. There sunnis call me names because they feel I am shia :))

I maintain politeness because that is how we should conduct ourselves . I am not a prophet that whatever I say every one will have to accept me. There will always be difference of opinion.

If Allah swt wanted he could have made every one submit , if that was not what His plan was , why should it be mine? We can just give our side to others , if they are convinced using there own research and intellect , then it is fine , if they do not , it should not bother me. People have own free will after all.

Gem of words mate.
 
Agreed.

But what if we find out after death that some other religion is true? We are still screwed.

So by being religious we are only improving our odds by a LITTLE. :P

Islam is the only true absolutist religion in the world, i.e. if you are a non-Muslim, you are bound to go to Hell even if you have lived a very righteous life. Christianity on the other hand can also be considered absolutist to a certain degree, but there are grey areas, and recently the Pope claimed that atheists can go to Heaven as well. You will never see a Muslim cleric claim something like that, because it goes against the Islamic belief that Islam is the absolute truth and everyone else is misguided.

Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, Baha'ism etc. are philosophical religions where all paths lead to God, so it doesn't matter if you don't follow these religions as long as you lead a good life. Similarly, If after death, you find out that Yahweh (Jewish God) is the true God, then you are still not screwed because Judaism does not focus on afterlife and claim that you will be rewarded for your good deeds and punished for bad deeds irrespective of your religion. However, there is no official dogma on their afterlife beliefs.
 
But if a person has doubt in His heart , and pretends to be Muslim just to be on safe side , its a big mistake , because God knows what is in his heart.

The foundation of the faith of any person is based on fear, the fear of getting punished if he is not a believer. Unless you are a prophet, doubts will be there, but the challenge is to have your faith overpower your doubts. Easier said than done, of course.
 
Allah has not Promised Mercy for all his slaves, The turner of hearts is not aware of our hearts?, since when was Salvation based on mere odds.

It is funny when Allah has promised sustenance for his slaves yet they still ran after it, but What Allah has not promised for his salves I.e. mercy we have no desire to strive for it.

And when it is said to them, "Spend from that which Allah has provided for you," those who disbelieve say to those who believe, "Should we feed one whom, if Allah had willed, He would have fed? You are not but in clear error." (36:47)

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Please explain.
 
Islam is the only true absolutist religion in the world, i.e. if you are a non-Muslim, you are bound to go to Hell even if you have lived a very righteous life. Christianity on the other hand can also be considered absolutist to a certain degree, but there are grey areas, and recently the Pope claimed that atheists can go to Heaven as well. You will never see a Muslim cleric claim something like that, because it goes against the Islamic belief that Islam is the absolute truth and everyone else is misguided.

Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, Baha'ism etc. are philosophical religions where all paths lead to God, so it doesn't matter if you don't follow these religions as long as you lead a good life. Similarly, If after death, you find out that Yahweh (Jewish God) is the true God, then you are still not screwed because Judaism does not focus on afterlife and claim that you will be rewarded for your good deeds and punished for bad deeds irrespective of your religion. However, there is no official dogma on their afterlife beliefs.

You are a smart boy. Haha.

Yeah, to cover the bases the BEST way out of all the options, you go with Islam.

Christianity mainstream is also absolutist. The grey areas as you say may be there but its all fringe. But then Islam also has grey areas (at a much much smaller level if I am not wrong) where the views of pure Quranists (no disrespect meant) is different from mainstream views.

Other religions eventually lead to God but there could be a lot of sufferings (worldly problems, temporary hell) in between. I mean does it really matter that you or I would eventually reach God when we may face cycles of birth and death for God knows how long (maybe 100 years or 1000 years or 10,000 years or 100,000 years or 1,000,000 years or even more).

But taking all things into account, yeah going with Islam is relatively more safer than all options (though Christianity is almost up there) cos atleast you are spared from eternal hell.
 
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But if a person has doubt in His heart , and pretends to be Muslim just to be on safe side , its a big mistake , because God knows what is in his heart.

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] - Looks like God has sealed that loophole bro.

So humanity has no option but to take a risk either way. :))
 
How do you define what is logical and what isn't. Our intelligence is limited, even the smartest person in World only has the intelligence which is given to him, no more than that.

That is what we say when we do not have answers to certain questions. Our knowledge and intelligence is limite, Allah knows best etc. etc.

By logic, I am referring to scientific logic. If try to validate religion through the lens of scientific logic/knowledge, our faith will be weakened. That is why it is about your faith. When you have faith, you accept without challenging its logic.

There is no logic on where God came from, why did he create the world, why are human beings on trial today because Adam made a mistake and got banished from the Heavens, why some people are born poor and some are born rich etc. etc. These things are purely based on faith.
There are scientic factors mentioned in Quran which people didn't understand at that time or even later, but with better technology scientists have understood now, for instance how a child is formed in the womb.

That again, is not true. The so-called science in religious texts is so vague that they can be interpreted in a number of ways, including the formation of a fetus in the womb. The problem is that we use contemporary science to validate the science in Quran.

Today, we say that embryology is described in the Quran, but if after a 1,000 years, medical science says that they were wrong about how babies are produced in the fetus and they are produced like XYZ, then we will go back to the Quran and try to validate the 1,000 years later science.

Based on the science in Quran, one can prove that the Earth is flat or it is not flat. Science is not derived from the Quran, but we try to validate what we know about science through the vague science of Quran which is very easy to interpret in a number of ways. As a result, the science in Quran can be interpreted conveniently to suit the modern day science. If science changes, so do the interpretations.

The claims that science has proved this and that in the Quran are all baseless claims with no factual evidence. There is no scholarly work or any research papers that have been published to verify the science in the Quran, and neither have they been accredited by leading scientists and researchers.

That day, I saw a video on Facebook which claimed that modern science has proved that drinking water while standing is bad for your knees. That is total nonsense and there is no medical evidence or research that validates this conclusion.

Ask any leading orthopedic in the world and he will tell you that there is no evidence of this claim. Same goes for the taboo subject of self-pleasure. According to Islamic medical science, it is supposed to cause hair loss, weakness and even blindness, but that is simply not true according to medical science.

Now you can say that medical science is wrong, but if you are taking the word of a religious scholars who have no knowledge of science and cannot differentiate between a plant cell and an animal cell over the research of leading researchers and scientists in the world with years and years of study, then that is your faith. Irrational it may be, but you cannot argue with faith.

So if the scientist are atheists doesn't mean they have the correct answers. The correct answers are found in Quran. With time more and more people would find out that.

That again, is your faith. The word of these scientists are infinitely more credible than the word of Tariq Jameel, Zakir Naik or Mufti Menk, because their work is based on years of research and that research is then verified and scrutinized by hundreds and thousands of other researchers and only then their work is allowed to be published.

The problem is that when the religious scholars comment on science, the audience is generally not knowledgeable enough to substantiate their claims. When a Maulvi claims that drinking water while standing is bad for health, or fasting is beneficial for health, or honey is a cure to all illness etc., their claims are not substantiated. No one asks them to prove these so-called facts, and these lies propagate and eventually get passed as 'scientific facts' in the Quran.

In the academic world, you cannot state so-called facts without having your 'fact' verified by other researchers who have spent years studying and researching the field. If you drag science into religion, your religion will be logically tested, and a person cannot simply refute the work of leading scientists and researchers even though their knowledge on that subject is not even 0.1% of theirs.

If you are refuting their work, then you must present your work and explain why they are wrong. Your work will then be tested and reviewed by other scientists and if you proven to be correct, you will get a Nobel Prize for it -this is how the academic world works.

As far as the statement that 'with time more and more people would find out that', again, that is contrary to how the modern day science is operating and the speed at which it is developing.

When we say that our knowledge is limited, we fail to take into account that the limitation of our knowledge is relative. 500 years ago, if you would have told someone that you will be sitting in China and be able to watch someone sitting in Europe, you would have been labeled as crazy.

If you would have told someone that one day, man will walk on the moon, he would have been left reeling in a mental asylum. Modern day science has allowed people to interfere with God's work, and this why people are moving away from religion.

We are told that God created this Earth for us humans and other organisms, but after 5,000 years when we colonize Mars, what then? Did we just create our own Earth?

All of these scientific questions drive a person away from religion. That is why if you bring in logic and science to validate your religion, your faith will weaken. Faith at the end of the day is just faith, and this faith has allowed you to believe that the work of all these scientists is wrong even though you don't have (I'm assuming) knowledge of these sciences and cannot say how and why they are wrong, but you have faith that they are wrong because you only believe in what the Quran says. Now that is certainly not wrong, in fact it is beautiful, but we must learn to keep science and religion aside.
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] - Looks like God has sealed that loophole bro.

So humanity has no option but to take a risk either way. :))

I don't agree. Whether we admit it or not, from an Islamic perspective, the fear of punishment is the major driving force behind our religious inclination. Faith is obviously blind because we haven't seen any of the things that we believe in.
 
I don't agree. Whether we admit it or not, from an Islamic perspective, the fear of punishment is the major driving force behind our religious inclination. Faith is obviously blind because we haven't seen any of the things that we believe in.

True but then in a direct or indirect way, fear is a driving factor for EVERY religion.

If there is no fear, people would pray to God but not take the pains in following any specific customs or rituals.

Say your mom scolds you as a kid whenever you say you won't be an engineer. Over time, after listening to her, you decide you will become an engineer and you mean it. Is that the same wanting to be an engineer just cos you want to be safe and not upset your mother?

Your views either ways are driven due to fear. But there is a difference imho.
 
RIP common sense.

1- What about time wasted in saying prayers (5 times a day, Friday prayer, Taraveeh), wasted money on Hajj, and wasted time, energy and Money on fasting!! (list is long)

Wasting an hour a day on praying, money and energy on Hajj and other rituals etc. are insignificant compared to an eternal life in Hell.

A) You are a believer and you die and there is no Judgment Day, no Heaven or Hell.

B) You are a non-believer and you die and Allah swt is standing in front of you, and because you are a non-believer, you are thrown into Hell.

Which situation is worse? Which situation has a higher opportunity cost?

For A), the worst that you lose out is time and money.

For B), the worse is getting banished to Hell for the rest of your life, which will be so deep that if you fall, you won't reach the bottom for 70 years. Atheists will go into the third worst level of Hell, called the Saqar, where there will be camel sized snakes and donkey sized scorpions whose bites will hurt for 40 years, and your tongue will be pulled out 3 miles and people will walk on it, and boiled water will be over your head, so hot that if it is poured on Earth, it will melt instantly.

So tell me, which situation has a higher opportunity cost or risk? Yet you talk about logic?
2- Worse, if you wasted all (some of all mentioned above) and die just to come to realization that Hinduism was the right religion. and now stay in Narkh/Jahanum/Doozakh

Don't expose your lack of knowledge. Hinduism is not absolutist; as per Hindu beliefs, all paths lead to God. If you die a pious Muslim, you will not be punished.
Logical actions that I'd suggest, that:
- Do not give cancer medication to a healthy person. (Until tested and re-tested and diagnosed with cancer, sure go ahead with medication in this case.)
- Do not get excited before actually winning the lottery.

for smaller things, one can be casual,
but for important matters, be extra cautious.

Don't know what you are trying to say here.
 
True but then in a direct or indirect way, fear is a driving factor for EVERY religion.

If there is no fear, people would pray to God but not take the pains in following any specific customs or rituals.

Say your mom scolds you as a kid whenever you say you won't be an engineer. Over time, after listening to her, you decide you will become an engineer and you mean it. Is that the same wanting to be an engineer just cos you want to be safe and not upset your mother?

Your views either ways are driven due to fear. But there is a difference imho.

Very true. It's also reflected in the way the world works in real life. There is a carrot and stick aspect for want of a better term. Otherwise we wouldn't need punishments for crime or offer rewards for hard work and ingenuity.
 
True but then in a direct or indirect way, fear is a driving factor for EVERY religion.

If there is no fear, people would pray to God but not take the pains in following any specific customs or rituals.

Say your mom scolds you as a kid whenever you say you won't be an engineer. Over time, after listening to her, you decide you will become an engineer and you mean it. Is that the same wanting to be an engineer just cos you want to be safe and not upset your mother?

Your views either ways are driven due to fear. But there is a difference imho.

That is what I stated in post #50. Faith starts with fear but eventually, the challenge is have your faith overpower your fear.

You might get into engineering because you fear that your parents will get angry if you don't, but if you want to become a great engineer, you will need to eventually embrace your field and love what you are doing.

Same goes for Islam. The poster who started this thread has very weak faith at this point. He cannot chose between Islam and Atheism, so in this situation, he needs a motivating factor and I provided him with that motivating factor. The opportunity cost of rejecting Islam is a much, much, much greater than the opportunity cost of accepting Islam.

With time, if he wants to be a good Muslim, he will have to ensure that his faith becomes so strong that it overpowers his fear and doubts. He will have to learn to love God not fear him, which is extremely important. Obviously as I said, it is much easier said than done. Such Muslims are extremely rate and when you reach that level, you lose connection with the material world and you become very spiritual.
 
Evolution is a scientific theory but since Darwin it has been amended. Social Darwinism has been fully rejected now. Even if you accept Evolution this doesn't rule out a Creator.

It's simple really, do you believe the universe came about due to mere chance or do you believe an all powerful Creator created it? The latter makes more sense.

I agree that Evolution Theory does not rule out the idea of a creator, though it strongly implies that the creator is a lot more distant and abstracted from its creation than many would like.

If you accept the idea of God then you are saying that something improbable (the Universe) was created by something more improbable (God). Then you are forced to ask what more improbable thing than God created God. And so on. Turtles all the way down....

What you call "Chance" is the more parsimonious explanation. We just happen to be in a universe where the four forces are in a certain proportion to each other. It they were not, we would not be here to talk about it. Then everything becomes possible.

It is not improbable that space gas will coallesce into stars, it is inevitable given the four forces.

Some of these stars will have planets, inevitably.

Some of these planets will be in the Goldilocks Zone, inevitably.

Some of these planets in the Goldilocks Zone will have organic miolecules, inevitably. On some planets, there compounds will evolve themself into a self-replicating molecule such as DNA and RNA. Then life will emerge, inevitably.

Given long enough, and where no cosmic collision such as a large asteroid strike takes place, that life will become sentient, inevitably.
 
Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact. Denying evolution altogether is futile.

However, Darwinism is a theory.
 
Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact. Denying evolution altogether is futile.

However, Darwinism is a theory.

How do you prove evolution as a fact? It might be evident in all likelihood, but I wasn't aware that it had been announced as proven fact.
 
How do you prove evolution as a fact? It might be evident in all likelihood, but I wasn't aware that it had been announced as proven fact.

You do understand what a theory in science means?

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed, preferably using a written, predefined, protocol of observations and experiments.[1][2] Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.[3]

It is important to note that the definition of a "scientific theory" (often ambiguously contracted to "theory" for the sake of brevity, including in this page) as used in the disciplines of science is significantly different from, and in contrast to, the common vernacular usage of the word "theory". As used in everyday non-scientific speech, "theory" implies that something is an unsubstantiated and speculative guess, conjecture, idea, or, hypothesis;[4] such a usage is the opposite of the word 'theory' in science. These different usages are comparable to the differing, and often opposing, usages of the term "prediction" in science (less ambiguously called a "scientific prediction") versus "prediction" in vernacular speech, denoting a mere hope.

From the American Association for the Advancement of Science:

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory". It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.

You can say that the "germ" theory is not proven but the theory is used to cure and eradicate so many diseases.
 
Wasting an hour a day on praying, money and energy on Hajj and other rituals etc. are insignificant compared to an eternal life in Hell.

A) You are a believer and you die and there is no Judgment Day, no Heaven or Hell.

B) You are a non-believer and you die and Allah swt is standing in front of you, and because you are a non-believer, you are thrown into Hell.

Which situation is worse? Which situation has a higher opportunity cost?

Pascal's Wager. I put it to you that some Bronze Age cleric developed this argument to scare people into adopting his religion instead of that of the other clerics competing for followers.

Well, I'm not buying it. Any God who would punish me forever for not following him/her/them/it is not worthy of me. If I am to believe in a God I want something to look up to, not something that displays my own worst character traits.
 
Pascal's Wager. I put it to you that some Bronze Age cleric developed this argument to scare people into adopting his religion instead of that of the other clerics competing for followers.

Well, I'm not buying it. Any God who would punish me forever for not following him/her/them/it is not worthy of me. If I am to believe in a God I want something to look up to, not something that displays my own worst character traits.

Is that why you like Christianity? because Jesus died for all the evils of mankind so you're free to indulge in the seven virtues :yk3 Although I feel you've never been a god fearing man but have faith in the FORCE, pfft pagans :mv
 
You do understand what a theory in science means?



From the American Association for the Advancement of Science:



You can say that the "germ" theory is not proven but the theory is used to cure and eradicate so many diseases.

My understanding was that evolution was still considered a theory, albeit not really challenged seriously these days. If it's been classified as a fact then just say so and point me to the relevant ratification.
 
Who will define what noble life is ? I mean from where one gets guidelines ?

Good question, not sure if this may exactly explain what is leading a noble life, in my view, in simplest terms, not doing to others the things which you don't want others to do for you. Like stealing, insulting and so on. Leading a noble life, may also mean that in your heart, you know, if the thing you did is right or wrong, may be not 100% on all matters, but I think we usually know if we did a right thing or not.

I admire that quote, as it shows that one need not pray to God in fear of punishment, but doing good because you think it is right...

When you bring religion to show you a moral compass, then that's the individual's prerogative. I have specially observed that religions which preach strict monotheistic outlook tend to be a bit rigid and not readily accepting alternate views. Hence, to me spiritual teachings which give peace to you are better than following a religious way of life, where in you have to pray for certain number of times, or go to a temple on a certain auspicious day and so on.
 
My understanding was that evolution was still considered a theory, albeit not really challenged seriously these days. If it's been classified as a fact then just say so and point me to the relevant ratification.

How much research in to evolutionary science have you done to come to this understanding?
 
Religion can never be proven logically and will always fail if you compare it to science, and that is why it is about faith.

There is a reason why the vast majority of top scientists in today's world are atheists. My advice to you is to not mingle science and religion if you want your faith in the latter to remain strong.

If you have faith in God you find out after death that there is nothing, you will not lose anything. You will just be dead.

However, if you do not have faith in God and you find out after death that everything that Islam told you about was true, what will you do?

The bottom line is that it is better (and safer) to be a believer than to be a non-believer.


Could not have put it better.

Even as a Muslim, i question everything i have been taught and have looked into why i have been brought up to do things in a certain way. My findings always came to this conclusion....everything i do does not harm me and doing the opposite would.

Very simple example "dont drink"- No down side to not drinking.

Agreed.

But what if we find out after death that some other religion is true? We are still screwed.

So by being religious we are only improving our odds by a LITTLE. :P

This is weak and lazy argument. Its not like you are not Atheist, you are Atheist about every other religion except the religion of culture you are born into. 99% of people adopt religion of their culture, it's form of identity for people, which they never change, it has little to do with truth or exploring reality...

Religion is hitting dead End

Science is not meant to have cultural or political biases, focus is on exploring truth via evidence. And it has severed us very well, more we focus on evidence base science better we get at getting to the bottom of reality...Religious based philosophy is a dead end not now but for sometime, you cannot really build upon it, it holds you back because sooner or later it will conflict with evidence base science no matter how much you try to avoid...

Its not that most Scientist are Atheist, but most Philosopher are Atheist too, well Philosopher build their Philosophy based on the data available at the time... Religion itself was build upon the knowledge of that time, it was not all metaphorical that people try to sell you as today, when their old science is too outdated :faceplam:


Religion Impedes Education

Too me the biggest problem with giving religion so much importance in matter of policy and culture is that it leads to ignorance...That's why I am so much against religion in dominating policy and social framework...This battle between Atheists/Agnostics with conservatives culture reminds me of Warris Drama from 70s, where Feudal lord wants to control the education taught to the school kids, he wanted to reduce School headmaster to more of a puppet (and treat him that way too), where he can only taught what is not threatening to his empire...

Muslim and religious culture look at Science Education the same way, it threatens them to the core, they want to control it, there is a reason for so much Ratification in our culture, people don't teach the Philosophy of Science, they focus on mechanics, data and number only, because when you go deep it threatens the religious empire...You cannot build anything meaningful unless you are open minded and embrace Philosophy of Science and respect it!!
 
Pascal's Wager. I put it to you that some Bronze Age cleric developed this argument to scare people into adopting his religion instead of that of the other clerics competing for followers.

Well, I'm not buying it. Any God who would punish me forever for not following him/her/them/it is not worthy of me. If I am to believe in a God I want something to look up to, not something that displays my own worst character traits.

Problem also with that line of thinking is belief through fear isn't really belief at all...

The problem I had when I left Islam is that I didn't believe in my heart of heart...if one doesn't believe something he can't force himself...belief isn't really a choice imho...you interpret information and you make a decision...disbelief and belief are sincere positions yet one is held accountable for being honest with themselves...
 
Wasting an hour a day on praying, money and energy on Hajj and other rituals etc. are insignificant compared to an eternal life in Hell.

A) You are a believer and you die and there is no Judgment Day, no Heaven or Hell.

B) You are a non-believer and you die and Allah swt is standing in front of you, and because you are a non-believer, you are thrown into Hell.

Which situation is worse? Which situation has a higher opportunity cost?

For A), the worst that you lose out is time and money.

For B), the worse is getting banished to Hell for the rest of your life, which will be so deep that if you fall, you won't reach the bottom for 70 years. Atheists will go into the third worst level of Hell, called the Saqar, where there will be camel sized snakes and donkey sized scorpions whose bites will hurt for 40 years, and your tongue will be pulled out 3 miles and people will walk on it, and boiled water will be over your head, so hot that if it is poured on Earth, it will melt instantly.

So tell me, which situation has a higher opportunity cost or risk? Yet you talk about logic?


Don't expose your lack of knowledge. Hinduism is not absolutist; as per Hindu beliefs, all paths lead to God. If you die a pious Muslim, you will not be punished.


Don't know what you are trying to say here.

Let me post a small table, (assuming we have no confirmation about any specific religion being wrong and we must have to make call), which shows that blindly picking of islam (and also blindly picking one correct, out of 72 sects, would not increase your odds):


Rel001.JPG


Lets first consider your case A:

- Wasting time (which is priceless) and your hard earned money is a BIG deal breaker as you have limited time and money that can be spent on something useful. Plus, its definitely more than an hour per day cause I live in a religious family (for an average adult life, it's more than 25000 hours). Plus, even one is healthy he had to act weird (read: Schizophrenia) and assume invisible (read: imaginary) entities like jinn, angels, Satan/Devil, God. Plus, assume He is watching you all the time, which is creepy. One can never have a private moment.
 
Pascal's Wager. I put it to you that some Bronze Age cleric developed this argument to scare people into adopting his religion instead of that of the other clerics competing for followers.

Well, I'm not buying it. Any God who would punish me forever for not following him/her/them/it is not worthy of me. If I am to believe in a God I want something to look up to, not something that displays my own worst character traits.

If a Robber comes to my house and threatens me and demands something, I'd comply. Even though he is a worthless person. But at least, I am fulfilling his demands under real threats.

Doing something under fake/imaginary threats would make me worthless.
 
The problem I had when I left Islam is that I didn't believe in my heart of heart...if one doesn't believe something he can't force himself...belief isn't really a choice imho...you interpret information and you make a decision...disbelief and belief are sincere positions yet one is held accountable for being honest with themselves...

Same with me when I left Christianity.
 
How much research in to evolutionary science have you done to come to this understanding?

Not that much, but the same applies, if there is a categorical ratification of evolution as a fact you can just point me in the direction where it's been classified as such and I'll be better informed.
 
Actually don't bother, I've done a google search and there's plenty of material there so no need to sidetrack this thread with exact meanings of facts regarding evolution. Seems there is a debate on this topic ongoing as it happens.
 
How do you prove evolution as a fact? It might be evident in all likelihood, but I wasn't aware that it had been announced as proven fact.

If you do not believe evolution as a fact then that means that you don't believe that gravity exists or Newton's Laws of Motion are factual etc.

It is a fact that evolution has happened, whether it happened like Darwin explained is debatable.
 
Actually don't bother, I've done a google search and there's plenty of material there so no need to sidetrack this thread with exact meanings of facts regarding evolution. Seems there is a debate on this topic ongoing as it happens.

I'm sorry, there's a debate over what exactly and where is it happening?

Who are the protagonists?
 
Pascal's Wager. I put it to you that some Bronze Age cleric developed this argument to scare people into adopting his religion instead of that of the other clerics competing for followers.

Well, I'm not buying it. Any God who would punish me forever for not following him/her/them/it is not worthy of me. If I am to believe in a God I want something to look up to, not something that displays my own worst character traits.

He may not be worthy of you, but he will still punish you. Is that punishment better than believing in Him in this world?
 
Not only believe in HIM, you must love him (and it must be true love) otherwise face horrible, ever lasting punishment, cause He loves you more (x 70 times) than your mother loves you.
 
If you do not believe evolution as a fact then that means that you don't believe that gravity exists or Newton's Laws of Motion are factual etc.

It is a fact that evolution has happened, whether it happened like Darwin explained is debatable.

It's all debatable, if you do a google search you'll see that it's being debated. Just type in 'is evolution a fact'. Much of it is just semantics which is why I don't want to be drawn into a longer discussion which is detracting from the actual topic.
 
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