Virat Kohli - A bottler in ODI knockouts?

[The_Odd_One]

He is already losing steam. When was the last time have you seen him dominating bowlers mercilessly, pointless bilateral averages aside? He can't play aggressively anymore, and he has learned to play under pressure either.

With the amount of cricket Kohli plays while captaining India in all three formats and captaining RCB in IPL, he is bound to run out of gas within 2-3 years. The same happened to Devilliers who was at similar stage of his career in 2015.

This world cup was Kohli's golden opportunity to cement his place as the greatest ODI batsman of all time but he failed. It will be even harder in 2023.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

well said.... it is laughable to see some of these knee jerk OTT reactions ...... Kohli won India the champions trophy 2013(top scorer in both semi & final), played a vital 35 in the 2011 world cup final, a 96* in 2017 champions trophy semi.He won the first abroad bilateral series in SAF & AUS for India.All of a sudden he does not deserve to be even an ATG. Agreed he has been far below his normal self, yet this is too much

These are the same guys who said he will fail in sa, when that didn't happen they hoped that kohli will fail in eng but that guy is a champion, he outscored each and every player. But still according to them he won nothing for his team and so he went to Australia and captained his team to the first ever victory in australia.
So after all this humbling they needed some sort of a failure to rub it in and today they got their chance.
I still think kohli will come back in the next world cup and win it for india,but as of now he should step down as captain.

 

[satheesh]

Those who're saying he's not even an ATG are pure haters, Kohli is most definitely an ATG in both ODIs and T20s. It's only his GOAT status has diminished significantly.

What better can we expect from pure haters with a prejudiced mentality waiting to pounce on the first oppertunity?? A batsman who won the champions trophy , won the world cup (35 of 49 balls at that situation was indeed a very good one based on the context) & a crucial 96* in 2017 champions trophy semi would always be a winner and not a chocker.
There is no doubting the fact that he has under achieved based on his reputation and hence he is still below the likes of Sachin & Viv in ODIs, but he is a certified ATG for sure.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

What better can we expect from pure haters with a prejudiced mentality waiting to pounce on the first oppertunity?? A batsman who won the champions trophy , won the world cup (35 of 49 balls at that situation was indeed a very good one based on the context) & a crucial 96* in 2017 champions trophy semi would always be a winner and not a chocker.
There is no doubting the fact that he has under achieved based on his reputation and hence he is still below the likes of Sachin & Viv in ODIs, but he is a certified ATG for sure.

It's sad to see biased comments, some are biased for no reason and downplay all his achievements. Unfortunately haters will always be around.

 

[Pakhs]

Ok duly noted, but whats your excuse for his match winning innings in ct 2013?
I know you are here to push your agenda, you said he"ll fail in England test series and he avgd 60,highest scorer in sa series as well, but instead of admitting that he proved u wrong you were applying meaningkess filters to downgrade his performances.
And yeah even though he may not be a GOAT but still he is 10 times the odi player dravid ever was and has won a world cup unlike rahul.
He will retire as the second best batsman from india behind sachin.

He will retire as the best batsman from India regardless to his performances in WCs etc. Even sachin was not better than say Ponting in WC finals etc but didnt stop Indian fans making him God. Kholi will break his ODI record with a better average etc. He could also finish with better average in tests which in tests really determines quality of a player.

 

[Roaring40s]

This highly selective stats flashing is useless. He has played a few good knocks in ICC tournament knockouts so far. People forget that legends like Imran have underperformed in a good number of knockouts to make amends very late in 1992. What has Wasim Akram done in WC after 1992? What was Inzi's performance in the KOs after 1992? Todays failure was more to do with the pitch, the quality of a motivated NZ attack, losing one wicket very early and then you can say SF pressure played a part.
He deserved a slight bit of luck today. If at least one chip of the following had fallen in his favor, the result would have been different.
1. If India would've won the toss and batted first.
2. If the conditions would've been different.
3. If the first wicket would've fallen after 10 or so overs.
4. New Zealand bowled very well. Give credit where due.
Search the records of any possible GOAT candidate and see what was their performance in the situations where as many odds went against them in critical matches. They had some degree of luck. If you say S Waugh 99, I would say Gibbs and later Donald dropped the WC. If you bring the best of them all, Gilchrist, I would say he played for the strongest team in the history of the game. Ponting had the luck of batting first in 2003 against a relatively inexperienced Zak and Co. Don't even bring pre-historic characters like Viv and Lloyd into it because game was different back then.
Lastly, I think Kohli's time of glory will finally come even if late, like it did for Tendulkar and Imran. Meanwhile some PP chest-thumpers can revel in publishing degrading views on him which nobody worth anything in the world of cricket will take seriously. Lekin isse unhe tasalli hoti hai to theek hai. Apna gham thori der ke liye bhool jaate hain bechaare. Don't worry, there'll be plenty of it because Sarfaraz is continuing as captain. You'll have to say "world cup is the only real deal" for at least two more years.

 

[satheesh]

These are the same guys who said he will fail in sa, when that didn't happen they hoped that kohli will fail in eng but that guy is a champion, he outscored each and every player. But still according to them he won nothing for his team and so he went to Australia and captained his team to the first ever victory in australia.
So after all this humbling they needed some sort of a failure to rub it in and today they got their chance.
I still think kohli will come back in the next world cup and win it for india,but as of now he should step down as captain.

people speak as if bilaterals are nothing and that too in a sport played only by a handful countries.people speak as if pressure is exactly the same for every nationalist and in every situation.
For instance, majority of Australians do not even care what their cricket team is doing which is far different from that of India where cricket is every thing. Naturally the pressure faced by a Ponting batting first would be far lesser to a Kohli for India batting 2nd. With out taking these contexts in to account even the term 'clutch' does not have any meaning.
Having said all these, there is no doubt that Kohli could have done lot better in this world cup semi

Definitely. I have been saying it for long time .Hope sense prevails & he shrugs off his captaincy burden.It is too much for him being an Indian & being the best batsman as of now.2 world cups remain for him if he remains fit and let him play as an ordinary batsman

 

[satheesh]

It's sad to see biased comments, some are biased for no reason and downplay all his achievements. Unfortunately haters will always be around.

people sleeping can be awaken , those who are pretending to sleep can never be.

 

[BabarAkmal_Fan]

Babar Azam's performance this World Cup (474 runs in 8 games) was better than any of Kohli's WC performances (2011, 2015, 2019).

 

[shah_1]

He will always be an ATG but not better than Sachin

 

[satheesh]

Qualification was at least 150 runs in KO matches of WC and CT vs top 8 teams

I know Kohli is still young but 8 KO matches he played are not a small sample.

Kohli has a 96* vs non minnow Bangladesh in semi final which takes his avg: to 38.86 . Don't think that knock can be neglected.

 

[Slog]

well said.... it is laughable to see some of these knee jerk OTT reactions ...... Kohli won India the champions trophy 2013(top scorer in both semi & final), played a vital 35 in the 2011 world cup final, a 96* in 2017 champions trophy semi.He won the first abroad bilateral series in SAF & AUS for India.All of a sudden he does not deserve to be even an ATG. Agreed he has been far below his normal self, yet this is too much

Lol Indian fans talk about that 35 as if it was 135

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Babar Azam's performance this World Cup (474 runs in 8 games) was better than any of Kohli's WC performances (2011, 2015, 2019).

Agreed.

It's about impact.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Not a bad WC for Kohli but couldn't stand up when he was really needed.

 

[satheesh]

Lol Indian fans talk about that 35 as if it was 135

firstly no body is saying it was a 'great' category knock. Secondly , context needs to be taken into account- chasing 274, in home condition, coming in at 0/1 & then team at 31/2 , yes that is definitely a 'very good' knock indeed.

 

[Dead Ball]

Very disappointed in Kohli.

He has failed in too many big games to ignore now.

This was an ideal opportunity for him to go from ATG to GOAT and he fell face flat.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Very disappointed in Kohli.

He has failed in too many big games to ignore now.

This was an ideal opportunity for him to go from ATG to GOAT and he fell face flat.

One doubt.

Are you the Indian Dead Ball (old poster) or the Pakistani Dead Ball?

 

[hadi123]

Sad for the GOAT

 

[KingKhanWC]

Sad for the GOAT

How can be GOAT if he fails in the biggest matches?

 

[zulfiqar]

He's a bit like Sachin in this regard isn't he? It's a tough metric though - Even Lionel Messi has this hanging over his head. You only get to participate in less than a handful of semifinals/finals etc. and so that surely should not define your career.

That being said, I think that's what makes guys like Gilchrist, Ponting, de Silva, and yes, for a Pakistani fan - even Inzi so special. They played that one or two innings at the time the team really needed them. Kohli's career isn't over yet and I am sure he will have a few more chances to change this - he's shown up in big matches before so it's a matter of time and chance that he will fire in a WC semi-final or a similar game.

 

[satheesh]

He's a bit like Sachin in this regard isn't he? It's a tough metric though - Even Lionel Messi has this hanging over his head. You only get to participate in less than a handful of semifinals/finals etc. and so that surely should not define your career.

That being said, I think that's what makes guys like Gilchrist, Ponting, de Silva, and yes, for a Pakistani fan - even Inzi so special. They played that one or two innings at the time the team really needed them. Kohli's career isn't over yet and I am sure he will have a few more chances to change this - he's shown up in big matches before so it's a matter of time and chance that he will fire in a WC semi-final or a similar game.

then we can do one thing.... dismiss all other things as ' non cricket'. Because as per you the occasions 'the team really needed them' are only world cup knock outs.

 

[zulfiqar]

then we can do one thing.... dismiss all other things as ' non cricket'. Because as per you the occasions 'the team really needed them' are only world cup knock outs.

I actually said that a few innings should not define a player's career. That being said, aren't the knocks in those defining moments the most memorable? It's something I wish my own legends did more (i.e. Wasim and Saeed Anwar in '99). If you look at Afridi.. his career batting/bowling averages are poor yet most Pakistanis (including me) have a very fond memory of Afridi for giving match-winning performances in the 2009 T20 SF & Final against SA & SL. He could get out for 20 ducks afterwards and no one could take that T20 WC away from him or Pakistan.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

It's obvious. He's the greatest bottler of all-time.

No,that title belongs to your beloved Amla.

 

[satheesh]

I actually said that a few innings should not define a player's career. That being said, aren't the knocks in those defining moments the most memorable? It's something I wish my own legends did more (i.e. Wasim and Saeed Anwar in '99). If you look at Afridi.. his career batting/bowling averages are poor yet most Pakistanis (including me) have a very fond memory of Afridi for giving match-winning performances in the 2009 T20 SF & Final against SA & SL. He could get out for 20 ducks afterwards and no one could take that T20 WC away from him or Pakistan.

definitely ... but it is the 'amount of weightage that people associate with these knocks with out taking any context into account' is that I disagree a lot with.This is because several factors namely amount of people's expectations, nature of the game itself(chasing lot tougher especially in knock outs), reputation of the player(a new comer 'with nothing to lose' feels very lesser pressure) etc etc all needs to be taken into account while providing weightage to such performances. .

 

[ak619]

Babar in knockouts so far :

38* in a successful chase against England (CT 2017 semi final)

45 vs India (CT 2017 final)

69 vs SA (2019 world cup virtual knockout)

101* in a successful chase on a rank turner vs NZ (2019 world cup virtual knock out)

45 vs AFG in a successful run chase (2019 world cup virtual knock out).

Kohli has bottled way too many KO innings but this is rubbish.

You're counting league matches in this? Seriously?

If you're counting league games then you should count Kohli's 82* against Australia in the 2016 WT20 (a better LOI innings than any Pakistani innings in the last 27 years), his 50* against Pakistan in the same tournament - apart from obviously the runs he has scored in actual KOs - his 34 in 2011, 44* in 2013 CT final, his 90* odd in CT 17 semi final, his 90* in WT20 2016 SF.

 

[Arham_PakFan]

His performances in ICC ODI tournament knockouts will be a blot on his overall record, unless he can turn things around in the future.

 

[Titan24]

Kohli has probably 1 more WC in him and that too in India. He has the ability to turn things around for sure.

 

[Bilal7]

Kohli has bottled way too many KO innings but this is rubbish.

You're counting league matches in this? Seriously?

If you're counting league games then you should count Kohli's 82* against Australia in the 2016 WT20 (a better LOI innings than any Pakistani innings in the last 27 years), his 50* against Pakistan in the same tournament - apart from obviously the runs he has scored in actual KOs - his 34 in 2011, 44* in 2013 CT final, his 90* odd in CT 17 semi final, his 90* in WT20 2016 SF.

20-over matches have no bearing in this conversation. The 90-odd in the CT 17 is his only decent innings in an ICC ODI tournament given that the 2013 CT final was a 20-overs match. If you want to bring T20s into it, why leave out tests? Also, if you cared to read carefully, you would see that they were all virtual or proper KO matches.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

firstly no body is saying it was a 'great' category knock. Secondly , context needs to be taken into account- chasing 274, in home condition, coming in at 0/1 & then team at 31/2 , yes that is definitely a 'very good' knock indeed.

Just like Pant today.

 

[satheesh]

Just like Pant today.

Leave aside others, a 35(49) even in an ordinary bilateral is an average score, i mean not bad. To do that in a world cup final, chasing 274, in front of home crowd with huge pressure of expectations, team at 0-1 & 31-2 , it's quality raises many fold and yes it is a 'very good ' category knock.

 

[Mamoon]

Totally agree with [MENTION=149786]satheesh[/MENTION].

You won't find a single career that is perfect in every sense. Pick any great player at random and you will find many holes. Kohli has already done more than enough to be considered the greatest ODI batsman ever, and whatever he achieves from this point onwards will only enhance his legacy. He has defeated his competition already.

 

[DRsohail]

Totally agree with [MENTION=149786]satheesh[/MENTION].

You won't find a single career that is perfect in every sense. Pick any great player at random and you will find many holes. Kohli has already done more than enough to be considered the greatest ODI batsman ever, and whatever he achieves from this point onwards will only enhance his legacy. He has defeated his competition already.

Sachin???? The only one ??

 

[OffDrive]

Kohli not that good

He might have tons on runs in useless bilateral series but when it counts he is weak.

I would take Kane Willamson any day of the week before him, Kane won the game yesterday against the Indians.

Kohli's last three World Cups semifinals scores are:

9
1
1

Those are disgraceful performances when it matters, I have noticed the Indians are a mediocre team they have been for decades now.

Even when they had Tendulkar, Ganguly, Laxman, Dravid, etc they were weak. Look at Australia we haven't lost a semifinal in a long, long time, and now NZ has overtaken India.

India might have a billion people but they will never be any good.

 

[ak619]

20-over matches have no bearing in this conversation. The 90-odd in the CT 17 is his only decent innings in an ICC ODI tournament given that the 2013 CT final was a 20-overs match. If you want to bring T20s into it, why leave out tests? Also, if you cared to read carefully, you would see that they were all virtual or proper KO matches.

Because there are no KO games in test matches, maybe?

Maybe we can have this conversation when we have the first Test championship final in 2021.

And CT2013 final was a curtailed game. It wasn't a T20 match. All the stats from that match went into the ODI record books, not the T20I record books.

 

[Deewana]

How can we not discuss Kohlis perfomance in Knockouts and forget his 70 odd in World t20 SF vs South Africa in 2014 and his knock in virtual QF vs Aus in world t20 2016, alsi he has scored 80 odd in world SF a 70 in the Final too.. Top scorer in CT Final 2013 and 90 odd in CT SF 2017 not to forget that crucial partnership vs Gambhir in WC final 2011 after india lost openers early..
but lets apply filters with agends

 

[ak619]

20-over matches have no bearing in this conversation. The 90-odd in the CT 17 is his only decent innings in an ICC ODI tournament given that the 2013 CT final was a 20-overs match. If you want to bring T20s into it, why leave out tests? Also, if you cared to read carefully, you would see that they were all virtual or proper KO matches.

And btw there is no such category as "virtual" KO. It's either a KO match or a league match.

Also, quite disingenuous of you to be okay with bending the rules to allow stats for Babar's "virtual" KOs (read league matches) but suddenly be a stickler for rules when it comes to Kohli's T20I innings which actually came in KO matches. Real KO matches.

 

[Mobashir]

Same conditions, same bowling attacks, same pitches for everyone. And you see that Kohli is a tremendous batsman in this world cup. In the mix with other tremendous batsmen like Root, Williamson, Smith, Babar etc.

In Bilateral against Boland, Tye and his epic battle against Faulkner he is by far the best.

 

[PakLFC]

He is world class. It was the Kiwi bowling and occasion that beat him.

 

[Mobashir]

And btw there is no such category as "virtual" KO. It's either a KO match or a league match.

Also, quite disingenuous of you to be okay with bending the rules to allow stats for Babar's "virtual" KOs (read league matches) but suddenly be a stickler for rules when it comes to Kohli's T20I innings which actually came in KO matches. Real KO matches.

KO or not Babar was better than Kohli in this world cup. His innings had lot more impact on the games. His innings against New Zealand is still the best or second best in the world cup. The way he played Cummins, Rabada, Archer, Bumrah, Fizz, Ferguson, Boult... Every time he played the best bowlers of the opposition so well. In this form Babar was just too class.

 

[satheesh]

Totally agree with [MENTION=149786]satheesh[/MENTION].

You won't find a single career that is perfect in every sense. Pick any great player at random and you will find many holes. Kohli has already done more than enough to be considered the greatest ODI batsman ever, and whatever he achieves from this point onwards will only enhance his legacy. He has defeated his competition already.

would agree to disagree w.r.t bolded part. But one thing for sure , a player who has 4 'very good-great' calibre knocks in ICC tournament knock out matches does not have any thing to prove w.r.t his ATG status in ODIs. More over he has won the team bilaterals in AUS & SAF for the first time .Add his other credentials in this format , any thing further he achieves is only icing on the cake.

 

[Mobashir]

Totally agree with [MENTION=149786]satheesh[/MENTION].

You won't find a single career that is perfect in every sense. Pick any great player at random and you will find many holes. Kohli has already done more than enough to be considered the greatest ODI batsman ever, and whatever he achieves from this point onwards will only enhance his legacy. He has defeated his competition already.

Can you please list the holes in Ricky Ponting's ODI career? Not saying there isn't. But can you please list them?

 

[Finisher]

Totally agree with [MENTION=149786]satheesh[/MENTION].

You won't find a single career that is perfect in every sense. Pick any great player at random and you will find many holes. Kohli has already done more than enough to be considered the greatest ODI batsman ever, and whatever he achieves from this point onwards will only enhance his legacy. He has defeated his competition already.

Gilchrist and Viv

 

[Maverick84]

Kohli is a choker in ICC knockout matches. Keeps bottling up. He can’t even get past 5. Bottled up big time in 2015 WC with a *********, and poor shot selection caused his downfall against Pakistan in CT Final and WC 2019.

 

[Aman]

He's a bit like Sachin in this regard isn't he? It's a tough metric though - Even Lionel Messi has this hanging over his head. You only get to participate in less than a handful of semifinals/finals etc. and so that surely should not define your career.

That being said, I think that's what makes guys like Gilchrist, Ponting, de Silva, and yes, for a Pakistani fan - even Inzi so special. They played that one or two innings at the time the team really needed them. Kohli's career isn't over yet and I am sure he will have a few more chances to change this - he's shown up in big matches before so it's a matter of time and chance that he will fire in a WC semi-final or a similar game.

Messi didn't win a trophy but he's won two golden balls, an Olympic gold and U20 WC (he was player of the tournament at both). Also, the WC in football isn't the highest level.

 

[zulfiqar]

Messi didn't win a trophy but he's won two golden balls, an Olympic gold and U20 WC (he was player of the tournament at both). Also, the WC in football isn't the highest level.

Yeah it's not completely analogous, but as it relates to the international sport, he gets this sort of criticism quite regularly - that he is unable to perform in crunch games despite being the country's leading goalscorer, etc. I agree that int'l isn't the highest level of the game - but it's certainly the most visible and Messi himself has stated he would give away all of his personal accolades/accomplishments to win the cup for Argentina.

 

[Slog]

The rejigging of the narration is mind blowing and frankly hilarious.

Hashim Amla is not a great despite his bilateral prowess over the years because of ICC event failures. That is fair and correct. But atleast don’t be hypocritical and measure Kohli by the same standard

 

[Madplayer]

And btw there is no such category as "virtual" KO. It's either a KO match or a league match.

Also, quite disingenuous of you to be okay with bending the rules to allow stats for Babar's "virtual" KOs (read league matches) but suddenly be a stickler for rules when it comes to Kohli's T20I innings which actually came in KO matches. Real KO matches.

Great, now we should turn a blind eye to the fact that if Pakistan had lost any one of those games, Pakistan would have been knocked out. The fact that Pakistan couldnt afford to lose even 1 of these games is why i wrote "Virtual knockouts". And dont bring in T20s here. This is a discussion about ODIs. Start a new thread if you wanna talk about useless t20s.

Once more:

Babar in knockouts so far :

38* in a successful chase against England (CT 2017 semi final)

45 vs India (CT 2017 final)

69 vs SA (2019 world cup virtual knockout)

101* in a successful chase on a rank turner vs NZ (2019 world cup virtual knock out)

45 vs AFG in a successful run chase (2019 world cup virtual knock out).

Kohli in knock outs :

1(13)
1(6)
5(9)
3(8)
9(21)

 

[jagatk]

Great, now we should turn a blind eye to the fact that if Pakistan had lost any one of those games, Pakistan would have been knocked out. The fact that Pakistan couldnt afford to lose even 1 of these games is why i wrote "Virtual knockouts". And dont bring in T20s here. This is a discussion about ODIs. Start a new thread if you wanna talk about useless t20s.

Once more:

Babar in knockouts so far :

38* in a successful chase against England (CT 2017 semi final)

45 vs India (CT 2017 final)

69 vs SA (2019 world cup virtual knockout)

101* in a successful chase on a rank turner vs NZ (2019 world cup virtual knock out)

45 vs AFG in a successful run chase (2019 world cup virtual knock out).

Kohli in knock outs :

1(13)
1(6)
5(9)
3(8)
9(21)

I get the kohli is a choker narrative but you can't just make up your own knockouts, if it ain't a semi or quarter or a final it ain't a knock out.

 

[uberkoen]

Great, now we should turn a blind eye to the fact that if Pakistan had lost any one of those games, Pakistan would have been knocked out. The fact that Pakistan couldnt afford to lose even 1 of these games is why i wrote "Virtual knockouts". And dont bring in T20s here. This is a discussion about ODIs. Start a new thread if you wanna talk about useless t20s.

Once more:

Babar in knockouts so far :

38* in a successful chase against England (CT 2017 semi final)

45 vs India (CT 2017 final)

69 vs SA (2019 world cup virtual knockout)

101* in a successful chase on a rank turner vs NZ (2019 world cup virtual knock out)

45 vs AFG in a successful run chase (2019 world cup virtual knock out).

Kohli in knock outs :

1(13)
1(6)
5(9)
3(8)
9(21)

lol @ Virtual knockout. Why don't we refer to Champions Trophy as the virtual world cup now.

 

[Captain caveman]

To me it looks like virat is too emotional as a human being!!
He is the star player for india, yet his stats for knockouts, listed above are very poor!
Virat needs to control his emotions!
I think virat should bat at 5 in knock out tournaments! Go with sharma, dhawan, gill, shaw, then kohli, pant, pandya and jadeja!!
This team already on paper looks better than the india batting line up in this wc!
If gill and shaw are not good enough, try mayant agarwal at 3!
Kohli should not bat at 3 anymore!
Also, need to get rid of the deadwood(dhoni)!!!

 

[Madplayer]

I get the kohli is a choker narrative but you can't just make up your own knockouts, if it ain't a semi or quarter or a final it ain't a knock out.

Even if you consider semi and final of CT alone, Babar has done better lol.

However, the 3 games of this world cup which i mentioned were knockouts for Pakistan. Were they or were they not?

 

[Madplayer]

lol @ Virtual knockout. Why don't we refer to Champions Trophy as the virtual world cup now.

It is called the mini world cup

 

[Joseph Gomes]

How can we not discuss Kohlis perfomance in Knockouts and forget his 70 odd in World t20 SF vs South Africa in 2014 and his knock in virtual QF vs Aus in world t20 2016, alsi he has scored 80 odd in world SF a 70 in the Final too.. Top scorer in CT Final 2013 and 90 odd in CT SF 2017 not to forget that crucial partnership vs Gambhir in WC final 2011 after india lost openers early..
but lets apply filters with agends

World Cup >>>>> all those nonsense

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

people speak as if bilaterals are nothing and that too in a sport played only by a handful countries.people speak as if pressure is exactly the same for every nationalist and in every situation.
For instance, majority of Australians do not even care what their cricket team is doing which is far different from that of India where cricket is every thing. Naturally the pressure faced by a Ponting batting first would be far lesser to a Kohli for India batting 2nd. With out taking these contexts in to account even the term 'clutch' does not have any meaning.
Having said all these, there is no doubt that Kohli could have done lot better in this world cup semi

Definitely. I have been saying it for long time .Hope sense prevails & he shrugs off his captaincy burden.It is too much for him being an Indian & being the best batsman as of now.2 world cups remain for him if he remains fit and let him play as an ordinary batsman

Obviously there are biased haters of Kohli.

But we cant bring in intangibles like these to defend kohli.

What next?

Tendulkar faced expectations of a billion people so he is allowed to fail in finals while Viv had it too easy cos there was not much expectations.

Kohli has not been impactful in a single WC in this era.

If he is a GOAT contender, thats just unacceptable.

 

[satheesh]

The rejigging of the narration is mind blowing and frankly hilarious.

Hashim Amla is not a great despite his bilateral prowess over the years because of ICC event failures. That is fair and correct. But atleast don’t be hypocritical and measure Kohli by the same standard

Just proving by mere facts.That's all. Kohli has to prove a bit more in world cup knock outs by his own standards . But still he has 4 knock out inns spread among 1 world cup & champions trophy. Comparing Amla's performance is not fair to Kohli .

 

[satheesh]

Obviously there are biased haters of Kohli.

But we cant bring in intangibles like these to defend kohli.

What next?

Tendulkar faced expectations of a billion people so he is allowed to fail in finals while Viv had it too easy cos there was not much expectations.

Kohli has not been impactful in a single WC in this era.

If he is a GOAT contender, thats just unacceptable.

why can't ??? that is a fact. When crores of passionate people expect a lot from you , that is a lot lot different from 'very few pressure of expectations'. Similarly 'chasing' especially in knock outs is far more mentally challenging than setting targets. players from SENA countries face far lesser pressure in general when compared to those from subcontinent. These are all plain facts.

Hence I don't find any sense in evaluating the performances of batsmen with out taking the above contexts into account.

As for Kohli his 35(49) in 2011 final was a 'very good' knock by every stretch. He has 3 superb champions trophy knock out inns too. Facts are facts. It is in world cup knock outs that he need to perform a bit more.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Obviously there are biased haters of Kohli.

But we cant bring in intangibles like these to defend kohli.

What next?

Tendulkar faced expectations of a billion people so he is allowed to fail in finals while Viv had it too easy cos there was not much expectations.

Kohli has not been impactful in a single WC in this era.

If he is a GOAT contender, thats just unacceptable.

100% agreed.

 

[Mamoon]

Can you please list the holes in Ricky Ponting's ODI career? Not saying there isn't. But can you please list them?

Ponting averages in the 30s against South Africa, Pakistan, and West Indies, teams who have had strong pace attacks till the early 2000s and Ponting was past his prime by 2009-2010. In addition, in the three World Cups that he won, these were his scores in the semi-final:

37
2
22

We can ignore the 2007 semi-final because Australia were chasing a low total, but he still failed in his individual capacity.

His team was strong enough to carry him into the final on each occasion. The 2003 semi-final is the most important example - he scored 2 in 8 balls and Australia limped to 212.

It was a sluggish pitch that suited Sri Lanka, and Australia was the only team that had the bowling attack to defend that total. Had Ponting played for a lesser team and lost the semi-final, he would have been called a choker and wouldn't have had the opportunity to do what he did in the final.

Similarly, if Kohli had the team to drag him into the 2015 and 2019 World Cups Finals in spite of his failures, he might have produced something special in the final. My point is that circumstances and external factors play a role as well. When you play for an invincible team, the importunities of playing clutch knocks are also greater.

Ponting has two great innings in World Cup knockouts - 2003 final and 2011 quarter-final. However, he played in 5 World Cups. Kohli still has 2023 and perhaps 2027 where will have another chance to set the record straight.

 

[Mamoon]

The rejigging of the narration is mind blowing and frankly hilarious.

Hashim Amla is not a great despite his bilateral prowess over the years because of ICC event failures. That is fair and correct. But atleast don’t be hypocritical and measure Kohli by the same standard

The difference is that Amla has been a complete disaster in tournaments. On the other hand, Kohli has been far better and has played some stellar knocks, but yes it is true that he has not performed to his usual standards yet. However, comparing him to Amla is pointless. Even if Kohli retires today, he will be three levels above Amla in tournaments.

 

[Mamoon]

Gilchrist and Viv

West Indies and Pakistan were the best and second best bowling attacks in Viv's era. He didn't play West Indies, and averaged 30 against Pakistan with 0 hundreds. Even in Tests, his lowest average was against Pakistan.

Gilchrist underachieved considerably in ODIs. He opened for the best team in the world and didn't have the luxury of facing the best attack in the world, and 16 hundreds is a misery return. He should have scored 25+ tons at least. Also, he played in 7-8 semi-finals and failed in every single one of them, but his team were strong enough to carry him into the final on all but two occasions. That is the privilege you get when you play for the GOAT team.

As I said, if you look at any career with a microscope, you will find holes and flaws. Perhaps Mcgrath is the only player who passes every single test with flying colors.

 

[Ab Fan]

Virat Kohli is an all-time great but now we should put the argument that he is better or at same level to Sachin Tendulkar and Viv Richards in rest.

He was at peak of his career and on three of the biggest occasions, he failed miserably, ie., World Cup 2015, CT 2017 and WC 2019,out of which two of them we were favourites to win and for the third one, the early start was given by Indian openers . It is not expected from GOAT. India may win in 2023 WC, may not but we have to understand that we threw away several occasions when we were heavy favourites.

People can talk all about WT20s but it is nowhere near to the hype which World Cup has, heck even I don't follow WT20 or even CT that much but comes the WC, even the lesser cricket fans glue themselves to T. V sets.

Ricky Ponting played in a great team but had failures and hence wasn't a GOAT, even though he also has a 140 in WC finals. Virat also will remain an ATG only. He has threw a lot of chances now.

He will never gonna be better than Tendulkar now. Let's accept it.

 

[Mobashir]

Ponting averages in the 30s against South Africa, Pakistan, and West Indies, teams who have had strong pace attacks till the early 2000s and Ponting was past his prime by 2009-2010.

Against SA: Just show your bias or your incompetence to analyse anything related to Kohli or other indian batsmen.
To point out Ponting against South Africa is a big lol.
Ponting's record against them in that period is very very good. He has the most runs against SA in ODI's from 95 to 2011 at a very good average of 40 and also the second best strike rate (after Gilly) for batsmen scoring over 1000 runs.

In the same period if you look at the record against South Africa away from home or on neutral venue to avoid home advantage you will see how well Ricky Ponting did against South Africans. Over 26 innings he keeps his average of over 40 at a SR of 86 with 2 hundreds and 6 fifties.
Compare this to other legends from the same era and you will see:
Tendulkar : 27 innings, avg 31, SR 70. 1 hundred
Lara : 16 innings, average 35, SR 79 2 hundreds

Ponting was the best batsman vs South Africa during his playing days. You can disagree with this, but to point it out as a failure... Bravo!

Against Pak : Pakistan pace attack was strong till 2003. His average against them is 46, SR 85 with one hundred and 7 fifties in 21 innings. Again, this is one of his strongest point and you are listing it at a weak point.
Again you compare it to Tendulkar, Lara, Azharudeen, or any other batsman in the same period and Ricky Ponting will come on top.

And even if you look at the whole career against pakistan, his stats are more than fine. No, non-asian batsman can claim to have done better.

His record against west indies is okaish for the era but yes others have done better. West Indies was already not such a good side anyway from 1996.

 

[Captain caveman]

Virat Kohli is an all-time great but now we should put the argument that he is better or at same level to Sachin Tendulkar and Viv Richards in rest.

He was at peak of his career and on three of the biggest occasions, he failed miserably, ie., World Cup 2015, CT 2017 and WC 2019,out of which two of them we were favourites to win and for the third one, the early start was given by Indian openers . It is not expected from GOAT. India may win in 2023 WC, may not but we have to understand that we threw away several occasions when we were heavy favourites.

People can talk all about WT20s but it is nowhere near to the hype which World Cup has, heck even I don't follow WT20 or even CT that much but comes the WC, even the lesser cricket fans glue themselves to T. V sets.

Ricky Ponting played in a great team but had failures and hence wasn't a GOAT, even though he also has a 140 in WC finals. Virat also will remain an ATG only. He has threw a lot of chances now.

He will never gonna be better than Tendulkar now. Let's accept it.

92 wc sachin eliminated group stage
96 wc sachin eliminated in semis
99 wc sachin eliminated in group stage
03 wc sachin eliminated in final
07 wc sachin eliminated in group stage
11 wc sachin WINS the world cup with one flukey performance in the semis! The same world cup that a young kohli s a patlrt of!!!

I TAKE KOHLI OVER SACHIN IN ODIS !!!

 

[happydavy]

I don't think even hardcore Kohli fans, and that includes me, can defend his poor record in knockout matches. It's very embarrassing and time is running out, if it hasn't already, to make amends.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

92 wc sachin eliminated group stage
96 wc sachin elimunated in semis
99 wc sachin elimunated in group stage
03 wc sachin elimunated in final
07 wc sachin elimunated in group stage
11 wc sachin WINS the world cup with one flukey performance in the semis! The same world cup that a young kohli s a patlrt of!!!

I TAKE KOHLI OVER SACHIN IN ODIS !!!

Tu rehne de bhai.

 

[Captain caveman]

Tu rehne de bhai.

WHY!
i saw sachin and he was the biggest bottler ever, kohli is way way better!

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

why can't ??? that is a fact. When crores of passionate people expect a lot from you , that is a lot lot different from 'very few pressure of expectations'. Similarly 'chasing' especially in knock outs is far more mentally challenging than setting targets. players from SENA countries face far lesser pressure in general when compared to those from subcontinent. These are all plain facts.

Hence I don't find any sense in evaluating the performances of batsmen with out taking the above contexts into account.

As for Kohli his 35(49) in 2011 final was a 'very good' knock by every stretch. He has 3 superb champions trophy knock out inns too. Facts are facts. It is in world cup knock outs that he need to perform a bit more.

With all due respects (and i like your posts), you have lost the plot my friend.

Kohli didn't just fail... he was obliterated.

No one is saying Kohli always flopped in all knockouts.

I can break down each if his knocks and explain but feel we will just be going in circles.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

WHY!
i saw sachin and he was the biggest bottler ever, kohli is way way better!

This is what happens when you dont bother to check facts.

 

[Mobashir]

In addition, in the three World Cups that he won, these were his scores in the semi-final:

37
2
22

We can ignore the 2007 semi-final because Australia were chasing a low total, but he still failed in his individual capacity.

His team was strong enough to carry him into the final on each occasion. The 2003 semi-final is the most important example - he scored 2 in 8 balls and Australia limped to 212.

It was a sluggish pitch that suited Sri Lanka, and Australia was the only team that had the bowling attack to defend that total. Had Ponting played for a lesser team and lost the semi-final, he would have been called a choker and wouldn't have had the opportunity to do what he did in the final.

Similarly, if Kohli had the team to drag him into the 2015 and 2019 World Cups Finals in spite of his failures, he might have produced something special in the final. My point is that circumstances and external factors play a role as well. When you play for an invincible team, the importunities of playing clutch knocks are also greater.

Ponting has two great innings in World Cup knockouts - 2003 final and 2011 quarter-final. However, he played in 5 World Cups. Kohli still has 2023 and perhaps 2027 where will have another chance to set the record straight.

Again you are not considering different eras into consideration, on purpose or you forget it?

Ricky Ponting played in 5 world cups from 96 to 2011 and he was arguably the best batsmen over these 5 world cups.
Excluding minnows from those era and sticking to top 8 : Ponting has the most world cup runs, most hundreds, on of the best averages, Some of the finest knocks.
To just point out 3 scored in semis and then tell a story is not enough.

On the other hand, if you look at Virat's record for batsmen playing in world cups in his era, he will be lost and counted as a normal batsman. Average of 46 and SR of 86 where some of the greats are averaging over 90 and SR of 100 or even 120's for ABDV. And most of the good batsmen are averaging over 50-60.

 

[Mobashir]

The difference is that Amla has been a complete disaster in tournaments. On the other hand, Kohli has been far better and has played some stellar knocks, but yes it is true that he has not performed to his usual standards yet. However, comparing him to Amla is pointless. Even if Kohli retires today, he will be three levels above Amla in tournaments.

Again bringing in some prevalent things. I rate Kohli as a better ODI bat than Amla. But nothing separates them in WC, nothing.

About the same average, same SR and 2 useless hundreds to show for both.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Again bringing in some prevalent things. I rate Kohli as a better ODI bat than Amla. But nothing separates them in WC, nothing.

About the same average, same SR and 2 useless hundreds to show for both.

Kohli has been far more impactful in WCs.

 

[Mobashir]

With all due respects (and i like your posts), you have lost the plot my friend.

Kohli didn't just fail... he was obliterated.

No one is saying Kohli always flopped in all knockouts.

I can break down each if his knocks and explain but feel we will just be going in circles.

He is just trying to hard. The time he put in his head that tis 35 from Kohli is a very good knock and won the match for India it was finished for him.

 

[Captain caveman]

Amazing how many indian bros are going to blame king kohli for this defeat and let dhoni escape blameless!!
Anyway, your team,,your opinions, but if you don't want kohli send him over the border and we will make him the captain of our team!!!

 

[Mobashir]

Kohli has been far more impactful in WCs.

Actually, both were so impactless in WCs that I don't even want to go into this. Kohli a touch better maybe but nothing to be proud of.
Overall, Amla is a very very fine ODI batsman, a great ODI batsman. Kohli is a level above and an all time great batsman.

 

[Mobashir]

Amazing how many indian bros are going to blame king kohli for this defeat and let dhoni escape blameless!!
Anyway, your team,,your opinions, but if you don't want kohli send him over the border and we will make him the captain of our team!!!

... and make him a superb number 4 batsman. :Babar

 

[satheesh]

With all due respects (and i like your posts), you have lost the plot my friend.

Kohli didn't just fail... he was obliterated.

No one is saying Kohli always flopped in all knockouts.

I can break down each if his knocks and explain but feel we will just be going in circles.

these are just pure emotional statements. You point out what is wrong in what I said....

for instance champions trophy is a tournament where every non minnow team participates and crores follows it keenly just like the world cup. Kohli won it in 2013 contributing in both semi & final. Similarly in 2017 semi he played a great knock.
4 ICC knockout inns means he has done ok by ordinary standards. It is by his own standards that he has been a bit off.

I am just calling spade a spade. Point out logically as to where did I go wrong.

 

[satheesh]

He is just trying to hard. The time he put in his head that tis 35 from Kohli is a very good knock and won the match for India it was finished for him.

I have clearly stated as to why that knock is a 'very good' category knock by every stretch. If you feel otherwise why object with sensible facts rather than these pure emotional statements?

 

[Captain caveman]

these are just pure emotional statements. You point out what is wrong in what I said....

for instance champions trophy is a tournament where every non minnow team participates and crores follows it keenly just like the world cup. Kohli won it in 2013 contributing in both semi & final. Similarly in 2017 semi he played a great knock.
4 ICC knockout inns means he has done ok by ordinary standards. It is by his own standards that he has been a bit off.

I am just calling spade a spade. Point out logically as to where did I go wrong.

People need someone to blame!!
The real culprits are dhoni for indiia and malik for pakistan, but people will blame the ones they hate - kohli or haris!!!

 

[satheesh]

People need someone to blame!!
The real culprits are dhoni for indiia and malik for pakistan, but people will blame the ones they hate - kohli or haris!!!

beg to differ slightly here. just my thoughts. when it was 5/3 itself the match was very difficult from then on.So definitely Kohli is a guilt party in this match An aging Dhoni did all he was capable of in this 38 years of age more than any body else.

The main point here is Kohli getting stripped of all his past performances just because of this failure which is injustifiable by any stretch

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

these are just pure emotional statements. You point out what is wrong in what I said....

for instance champions trophy is a tournament where every non minnow team participates and crores follows it keenly just like the world cup. Kohli won it in 2013 contributing in both semi & final. Similarly in 2017 semi he played a great knock.
4 ICC knockout inns means he has done ok by ordinary standards. It is by his own standards that he has been a bit off.

I am just calling spade a spade. Point out logically as to where did I go wrong.

Kohli failed in

2011 qf, sf
2015 qf, sf
2019 sf

And played an excellent support role in 2011 sure but others had to do the main grunt work.

And you think calling him as being obliterated as an emotional response?

What can i say.

Check what other GOAT contenders have achieved.