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Virat Kohli vs AB de Villiers in ODIs

At age 29

Kohli: 55.74 AVG at 91.73 SR (32 ODI 100s)

AB De Villiers: 48.82 AVG at 93 SR (13 ODI 100s)

Kohli has more 100s chasing than ABD had in total at 29.
 
Kohli is a good player, and is better than AB who I think is a bit overhyped.
 
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:)))

Kohli is a good player.

And that's the point I'm trying to make. But according to you it makes me an Indian fan. Bilal is using stats to make Kohli look like a rubbish player.

Rather give my honest opinion than show haterad ,have a biased opinion, and be bitter.
 
:)))

Kohli is a good player, and is better than AB who I think is a bit overhyped.


I'll take Kohli as well. It's close as of now, but I think by the time Kohli finishes his career he'll surpass ABD for certain.
 
I'll take Kohli as well. It's close as of now, but I think by the time Kohli finishes his career he'll surpass ABD for certain.

It will always be tight unless Kohli wins / has a significant impact in a World cup win. Both of them are the Kings of JAMODIs.
 
It's clear you have different rules for different players.

It's clear that your attacks on me have led you nowhere. I rate Kohli very highly, he's the third best ODI batsman of his generation and a future ATG. However, he is weak against the moving ball and a choker in World Cups and he needs to fix these flaws before he can be considered the equal of Viv, ABD, Ponting and Sachin.
 
At age 29

Kohli: 55.74 AVG at 91.73 SR (32 ODI 100s)

AB De Villiers: 48.82 AVG at 93 SR (13 ODI 100s)

Kohli has more 100s chasing than ABD had in total at 29.

Babar Azam is better than Kohli then?
 
It's clear that your attacks on me have led you nowhere. I rate Kohli very highly, he's the third best ODI batsman of his generation and a future ATG. However, he is weak against the moving ball and a choker in World Cups and he needs to fix these flaws before he can be considered the equal of Viv, ABD, Ponting and Sachin.

"Attacks :))) calm down.

Whatever you say. It's clear to me you have different rules depending on wheather you like the player or not. In fact most of this forum is aware of it.
 
And that's the point I'm trying to make. But according to you it makes me an Indian fan. Bilal is using stats to make Kohli look like a rubbish player.

Rather give my honest opinion than show haterad ,have a biased opinion, and be bitter.

You have a habit of not reading properly. Kohli is certainly not rubbish but he is certainly not better than ABD or any of the other ATG ODI batsmen.
 
"Attacks :))) calm down.

Whatever you say. It's clear to me you have different rules depending on wheather you like the player or not. In fact most of this forum is aware of it.

Clear to you from what? Your web that you challenged me to "spin" out of turned out to be faulty. Most of the forum? Have you done a poll on this or did this come from the same place your allegations against me came from?
 
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It will always be tight unless Kohli wins / has a significant impact in a World cup win. Both of them are the Kings of JAMODIs.

90% of ODI games are JAMODIs. I dont think if you aren't king there you will even come into contention.
 
What is so important about this stat? A player might have scored big but lost the match while someone else would have scored on other day and won that match for his team.

It is important if the player in question is being conpared to Viv, Sachin, Ponting and ABD. Kohli can be a great player even if he doesn't win his team any games in those countries but he cannot be an ATG if he doesn't.

90% of ODI games are JAMODIs. I dont think if you aren't king there you will even come into contention.

Very true.
 
It is important if the player in question is being conpared to Viv, Sachin, Ponting and ABD. Kohli can be a great player even if he doesn't win his team any games in those countries but he cannot be an ATG if he doesn't.



Very true.

Yes he will have to win matches or play pivotal role in winning a couple of series in those countries but I dont get that average logic in wins. It is a bit flawed one.

Tendulkar won one in Australia 2007 by scoring in both finals while de Villiers also won one in India 2015( beating India in India is very difficult). Kohli also has to do that but time is there for him.
 
90% of ODI games are JAMODIs. I dont think if you aren't king there you will even come into contention.
True but meaningful ODIs are the way you would distinguish between the “kings” of JAMODIS
 
<B>Virat Kohli in World Cup Knockouts( Age - 29)</B>

Avgs 14.4@ SR 58

Let's not point out inconvenient facts for the fans.
 
<B>Virat Kohli in World Cup Knockouts( Age - 29)</B>

Avgs 14.4@ SR 58

Let's not point out inconvenient facts for the fans.

BUT BUT BUT its a matter of time that he will surpass Viv Richards and become the greatest ever.
 
True but meaningful ODIs are the way you would distinguish between the “kings” of JAMODIS

Yes and de Villiers came close to winning WC 2015 but bowlers were rubbish in semis and cost them the WC and its only a matter of time till Kohli delivers heavily in 50 overs WC.
 
de Villiers has won SA matches/series away from home almost everywhere except Australia while Kohli hasn't won any series anywhere outside Asia.

Neither of them have been great in World Cups.

I think this is enough to prove my point that de Villiers is a better ODI player than Kohli.

Yes, Kohli has won matches against Australia, England and New Zealand at home and against Lanka everywhere but winning in these countries is still a lot difficult achievement.
 
[MENTION=143344]babajee[/MENTION] [MENTION=146057]Ted123[/MENTION]

At the moment, Kohli is second only to Viv Richards in ODI cricket. In order to become the GOAT ODI batsman is to dominate a World Cup or play an iconic innings in a World Cup knockout match.

If he achieves that, he will become the ODI GOAT. If he doesn't, he will not be able to surpass Viv Richards.

Top 5 ODI batsmen up till now:

Viv Richards
Kohli
Tendulkar
Dhoni
Bevan

Followed by Ponting and de Villiers.

Kohli is committed, driven and has the ability to achieve it.
 
[MENTION=143344]babajee[/MENTION] [MENTION=146057]Ted123[/MENTION]

At the moment, Kohli is second only to Viv Richards in ODI cricket. In order to become the GOAT ODI batsman is to dominate a World Cup or play an iconic innings in a World Cup knockout match.

If he achieves that, he will become the ODI GOAT. If he doesn't, he will not be able to surpass Viv Richards.

Top 5 ODI batsmen up till now:

Viv Richards
Kohli
Tendulkar
Dhoni
Bevan

Followed by Ponting and de Villiers.

Kohli is committed, driven and has the ability to achieve it.

You are the Viv Richards of trolls and if Kohli finally plays well in a world cup you will become the Kohli of trolls!

Great going!

To have Dhoni, Kohli Tendulkar in front Ponting and ABDV is such a big joke.

Compare the guy who got a total of 8 runs in two finals with the one who has played the best innings ever in a world cup final.
Kohli and Dhoni, well they are not even in the same league.
 
[MENTION=143344]babajee[/MENTION] [MENTION=146057]Ted123[/MENTION]

At the moment, Kohli is second only to Viv Richards in ODI cricket. In order to become the GOAT ODI batsman is to dominate a World Cup or play an iconic innings in a World Cup knockout match.

If he achieves that, he will become the ODI GOAT. If he doesn't, he will not be able to surpass Viv Richards.

Top 5 ODI batsmen up till now:

Viv Richards
Kohli
Tendulkar
Dhoni
Bevan

Followed by Ponting and de Villiers.

Kohli is committed, driven and has the ability to achieve it.

So he has surpassed Tendulkar, Dhoni, Ponting and AB without winning a single series outside Asia and without dominating a single ICC tournament.Amazing!!!
 
[MENTION=143344]babajee[/MENTION] [MENTION=146057]Ted123[/MENTION]

At the moment, Kohli is second only to Viv Richards in ODI cricket. In order to become the GOAT ODI batsman is to dominate a World Cup or play an iconic innings in a World Cup knockout match.

If he achieves that, he will become the ODI GOAT. If he doesn't, he will not be able to surpass Viv Richards.

Top 5 ODI batsmen up till now:

Viv Richards
<B>Kohli
Tendulkar
Dhoni</B>
Bevan

Followed by Ponting and de Villiers.

Kohli is committed, driven and has the ability to achieve it.

3 Indians in top4..

Total World Cups played - 11
Total World Cups won by Australia - 5
Total World Cups won by India- 2

No of Australian batsmen in top5 -1
No of Indian batsmen in top5 - 3

Not to forget 1 WC was won by Kapil and co.
 
Winning World Cups is a function of the team. India have not won many World Cups because their bowling has been poor. Australia have produced great batsmen but their bowling has been incredible as well.

Give India's (historic) bowling to Australia and they won't win a World Cup, but give McGrath, Warne, Lee etc. to the Indian batsmen and they will win multiple World Cups too.

For me, Kohli has surpassed everyone except Viv because of what he has achieved at such a young age. His best years are still ahead of him and he will have to play very poorly from here on to taint his legacy. He is already an ODI ATG at the age of 28.

There are two great challenges for batsmen in ODIs: chasing big totals and performing in tournaments. Kohli is already the greatest ever by a country mile when it comes to chasing totals, and although he has performed in the Champions Trophy and played a couple of good knocks in World Cups, he needs to deliver an iconic innings in World Cups to become the GOAT ODI batsman.

de Villiers is not a chaser of Kohli's caliber and he bats too low to influence the course of the game. That is why for all his runs, he has not won a single knockout match for South Africa in any tournament. His reluctance to bat in the top 3 was the main reason why SA did not make it to the final of the World Cup in 2015.

Kohli takes the bull by the horns instead of cowering behind the top 3, which is not acceptable when you are the best batsman in the team. I always give examples of the Champions Trophy 2013 SF and the 2015 World Cup SF: both games were lost due to de Villier's lack of character.

In the CT, the ball was swinging miles and de Villiers hid behind a bowling all-rounder (Peterson) so that he could cash in when the ball stops swinging. Unfortunately for him, cricket is a great leveler and he ended up getting a duck later on, and protecting himself from the swing didn't help him.

Kohli would never hide in a situation like this; he would never send someone like Jadeja ahead of him so that he can make merry once the ball stops swinging. He would try and do the job himself. That takes guts, which de Villiers does not have.

And that is what he did in the final. India lost an early wicket in swinging conditions, and Kohli steered India to a competitive total.

In the 2015 World Cup SF, on a flat pitch with small boundaries and the biggest game of de Villiers' captaincy, he allowed inferior players like Faf and Rossouw to waste valuable overs in the middle overs while he restricted himself to 15-20 overs only. He played a great innings, but his refusal to bat up the order meant that South Africa did not run away with the game when he had the opportunity.

In reply, McCullum took charge at the top and put South Africa on the back-foot, and NZ rode on that momentum and won the game in spite of stuttering in the middle overs.

Cricket is a game of character, which de Villiers lacks but Kohli has in abundance, and that is why he is going to go down as a greater cricketer in spite of the fact that de Villiers has been blessed with far greater natural talent.

Tendulkar, Ponting, Dhoni and Bevan are all better than de Villiers, whose runs have lacked substance and context. However, Kohli has surpassed them all, and is now chasing Viv Richards.
 
Taking a page from Mamoon's book, AB can do everything that Kohli can but Kohli cannot do everything that AB can.

I personally think Kohli is better but just want to make a point that how ridiculous is that logic when comparing batsmen.
 
You are the Viv Richards of trolls and if Kohli finally plays well in a world cup you will become the Kohli of trolls!

Great going!

To have Dhoni, Kohli Tendulkar in front Ponting and ABDV is such a big joke.

Compare the guy who got a total of 8 runs in two finals with the one who has played the best innings ever in a world cup final.
Kohli and Dhoni, well they are not even in the same league.

Dhoni above AB is comical considering that Dhoni has never scored a century outside Asia.
 
<B>Virat Kohli in World Cup Knockouts( Age - 29)</B>

Avgs 14.4@ SR 58

Let's not point out inconvenient facts for the fans.

:))

I like how you ignore Kohli's Champions Trophy knockout games because his average goes up.

AB De Villiers had played two WC knockout games at the age of 29 and did nothing. He scored 15 and 35 with SA losing both matches.
 
:))

I like how you ignore Kohli's Champions Trophy knockout games because his average goes up.

AB De Villiers had played two WC knockout games at the age of 29 and did nothing. He scored 15 and 35 with SA losing both matches.

Bigger the occasion better the player.

Kohli has been even worse than de Villiers when you take that 29 age period.

Scoring in CT is not a great achievement. WCs are the pinnacle and Kohli is rubbish there.

I also like how you conveniently ignore my point that Kohli hasn't won any single series outside Asia and is yet to dominate a single ICC tournament.
 
Winning World Cups is a function of the team. India have not won many World Cups because their bowling has been poor. Australia have produced great batsmen but their bowling has been incredible as well.

Give India's (historic) bowling to Australia and they won't win a World Cup, but give McGrath, Warne, Lee etc. to the Indian batsmen and they will win multiple World Cups too.

For me, Kohli has surpassed everyone except Viv because of what he has achieved at such a young age. His best years are still ahead of him and he will have to play very poorly from here on to taint his legacy. He is already an ODI ATG at the age of 28.

There are two great challenges for batsmen in ODIs: chasing big totals and performing in tournaments. Kohli is already the greatest ever by a country mile when it comes to chasing totals, and although he has performed in the Champions Trophy and played a couple of good knocks in World Cups, he needs to deliver an iconic innings in World Cups to become the GOAT ODI batsman.

de Villiers is not a chaser of Kohli's caliber and he bats too low to influence the course of the game. That is why for all his runs, he has not won a single knockout match for South Africa in any tournament. His reluctance to bat in the top 3 was the main reason why SA did not make it to the final of the World Cup in 2015.

Kohli takes the bull by the horns instead of cowering behind the top 3, which is not acceptable when you are the best batsman in the team. I always give examples of the Champions Trophy 2013 SF and the 2015 World Cup SF: both games were lost due to de Villier's lack of character.

In the CT, the ball was swinging miles and de Villiers hid behind a bowling all-rounder (Peterson) so that he could cash in when the ball stops swinging. Unfortunately for him, cricket is a great leveler and he ended up getting a duck later on, and protecting himself from the swing didn't help him.

Kohli would never hide in a situation like this; he would never send someone like Jadeja ahead of him so that he can make merry once the ball stops swinging. He would try and do the job himself. That takes guts, which de Villiers does not have.

And that is what he did in the final. India lost an early wicket in swinging conditions, and Kohli steered India to a competitive total.

In the 2015 World Cup SF, on a flat pitch with small boundaries and the biggest game of de Villiers' captaincy, he allowed inferior players like Faf and Rossouw to waste valuable overs in the middle overs while he restricted himself to 15-20 overs only. He played a great innings, but his refusal to bat up the order meant that South Africa did not run away with the game when he had the opportunity.

In reply, McCullum took charge at the top and put South Africa on the back-foot, and NZ rode on that momentum and won the game in spite of stuttering in the middle overs.

Cricket is a game of character, which de Villiers lacks but Kohli has in abundance, and that is why he is going to go down as a greater cricketer in spite of the fact that de Villiers has been blessed with far greater natural talent.

Tendulkar, Ponting, Dhoni and Bevan are all better than de Villiers, whose runs have lacked substance and context. However, Kohli has surpassed them all, and is now chasing Viv Richards.

You should strop trolling now.

First you write winning WC is a function of a team and then you gave a detailed explanation why de Villiers hasn't done great on big occasion. Rubbish.

And since cricket is just about chasing, players should stop scoring runs while batting first. Right?

Kohli's chasing ability is only limited to Asia where he can chase out any total.

<B>de Villiers has won matches/series everywhere in the world while Kohli hasn't won a single series outside Asia.</B>

This is one fact. Choosing parameters as your wish isn't everything. This is hyprocisy at its best.
 
Winning World Cups is a function of the team. India have not won many World Cups because their bowling has been poor. Australia have produced great batsmen but their bowling has been incredible as well.

Give India's (historic) bowling to Australia and they won't win a World Cup, but give McGrath, Warne, Lee etc. to the Indian batsmen and they will win multiple World Cups too.

For me, Kohli has surpassed everyone except Viv because of what he has achieved at such a young age. His best years are still ahead of him and he will have to play very poorly from here on to taint his legacy. He is already an ODI ATG at the age of 28.

There are two great challenges for batsmen in ODIs: chasing big totals and performing in tournaments. Kohli is already the greatest ever by a country mile when it comes to chasing totals, and although he has performed in the Champions Trophy and played a couple of good knocks in World Cups, he needs to deliver an iconic innings in World Cups to become the GOAT ODI batsman.

de Villiers is not a chaser of Kohli's caliber and he bats too low to influence the course of the game. That is why for all his runs, he has not won a single knockout match for South Africa in any tournament. His reluctance to bat in the top 3 was the main reason why SA did not make it to the final of the World Cup in 2015.

Kohli takes the bull by the horns instead of cowering behind the top 3, which is not acceptable when you are the best batsman in the team. I always give examples of the Champions Trophy 2013 SF and the 2015 World Cup SF: both games were lost due to de Villier's lack of character.

In the CT, the ball was swinging miles and de Villiers hid behind a bowling all-rounder (Peterson) so that he could cash in when the ball stops swinging. Unfortunately for him, cricket is a great leveler and he ended up getting a duck later on, and protecting himself from the swing didn't help him.

Kohli would never hide in a situation like this; he would never send someone like Jadeja ahead of him so that he can make merry once the ball stops swinging. He would try and do the job himself. That takes guts, which de Villiers does not have.

And that is what he did in the final. India lost an early wicket in swinging conditions, and Kohli steered India to a competitive total.

In the 2015 World Cup SF, on a flat pitch with small boundaries and the biggest game of de Villiers' captaincy, he allowed inferior players like Faf and Rossouw to waste valuable overs in the middle overs while he restricted himself to 15-20 overs only. He played a great innings, but his refusal to bat up the order meant that South Africa did not run away with the game when he had the opportunity.

In reply, McCullum took charge at the top and put South Africa on the back-foot, and NZ rode on that momentum and won the game in spite of stuttering in the middle overs.

Cricket is a game of character, which de Villiers lacks but Kohli has in abundance, and that is why he is going to go down as a greater cricketer in spite of the fact that de Villiers has been blessed with far greater natural talent.

Tendulkar, Ponting, Dhoni and Bevan are all better than de Villiers, whose runs have lacked substance and context. However, Kohli has surpassed them all, and is now chasing Viv Richards.

How could Kohli possibly be chasing Viv? Viv was the best ODI batsmen simply because nobody was even close to him. His SR of 90 when players had SR of 60's and low 70s is absolutely phenomenal. Nobody was even close.
Is Kohli definitely better than AB - no. It is a fair comparison. Every time Kohli makes a century somebody else in the match also makes a century. What does that tell you about his runs? Also he has yet to perform in CT or WC. So how can he possibly be close to Viv? Infact at this point how is he even close to Sachin? He's played 200 ODIs and still not performed at the big stage? and hes supposed to be at an all time level?
It is amazing how a lack of context can make modern day players seem so great! He is not even close to Viv and Sachin. He will need to win matches outside Asia for him to be better than Ponting because at the moment Ponting way better than Kohli.
 
You should strop trolling now.

First you write winning WC is a function of a team and then you gave a detailed explanation why de Villiers hasn't done great on big occasion. Rubbish.

And since cricket is just about chasing, players should stop scoring runs while batting first. Right?

Kohli's chasing ability is only limited to Asia where he can chase out any total.

<B>de Villiers has won matches/series everywhere in the world while Kohli hasn't won a single series outside Asia.</B>

This is one fact. Choosing parameters as your wish isn't everything. This is hyprocisy at its best.

Agree absolutely. AB has performed everywhere in the world. I still don't understand why Kohli is apparently better because he is a phenomenal chaser. Are there not 2 innings in a game? He is a phenomenal player there is no doubt but hes not better than AB. When he wins matches outside Asia we will talk.
 
Winning World Cups is a function of the team. India have not won many World Cups because their bowling has been poor. Australia have produced great batsmen but their bowling has been incredible as well.

Give India's (historic) bowling to Australia and they won't win a World Cup, but give McGrath, Warne, Lee etc. to the Indian batsmen and they will win multiple World Cups too.

For me, Kohli has surpassed everyone except Viv because of what he has achieved at such a young age. His best years are still ahead of him and he will have to play very poorly from here on to taint his legacy. He is already an ODI ATG at the age of 28.

<B>There are two great challenges for batsmen in ODIs: chasing big totals and performing in tournaments.</B> Kohli is already the greatest ever by a country mile when it comes to chasing totals, and although he has performed in the Champions Trophy and played a couple of good knocks in World Cups, he needs to deliver an iconic innings in World Cups to become the GOAT ODI batsman.

de Villiers is not a chaser of Kohli's caliber and he bats too low to influence the course of the game. That is why for all his runs, he has not won a single knockout match for South Africa in any tournament. His reluctance to bat in the top 3 was the main reason why SA did not make it to the final of the World Cup in 2015.

Kohli takes the bull by the horns instead of cowering behind the top 3, which is not acceptable when you are the best batsman in the team. I always give examples of the Champions Trophy 2013 SF and the 2015 World Cup SF: both games were lost due to de Villier's lack of character.

In the CT, the ball was swinging miles and de Villiers hid behind a bowling all-rounder (Peterson) so that he could cash in when the ball stops swinging. Unfortunately for him, cricket is a great leveler and he ended up getting a duck later on, and protecting himself from the swing didn't help him.

Kohli would never hide in a situation like this; he would never send someone like Jadeja ahead of him so that he can make merry once the ball stops swinging. He would try and do the job himself. That takes guts, which de Villiers does not have.

And that is what he did in the final. India lost an early wicket in swinging conditions, and Kohli steered India to a competitive total.

In the 2015 World Cup SF, on a flat pitch with small boundaries and the biggest game of de Villiers' captaincy, he allowed inferior players like Faf and Rossouw to waste valuable overs in the middle overs while he restricted himself to 15-20 overs only. He played a great innings, but his refusal to bat up the order meant that South Africa did not run away with the game when he had the opportunity.

In reply, McCullum took charge at the top and put South Africa on the back-foot, and NZ rode on that momentum and won the game in spite of stuttering in the middle overs.

Cricket is a game of character, which de Villiers lacks but Kohli has in abundance, and that is why he is going to go down as a greater cricketer in spite of the fact that de Villiers has been blessed with far greater natural talent.

Tendulkar, Ponting, Dhoni and Bevan are all better than de Villiers, whose runs have lacked substance and context. However, Kohli has surpassed them all, and is now chasing Viv Richards.

This is such a ridiculous logic. Choosing parameters as per your liking.

Now since Kohli is the greatest chaser, chasing is the parameter set by you. Those two points only shows how good a player is under pressure situation. There is no doubt that Kohli is better pressure player than AB. But is that enough to make any conclusion on AB? There is more to ODI cricket than that- performance against better attacks and winning series in different countries( this is one challenge I put now).

Runs in first innings also count for a lot because if you are not setting a big total, you are leaving the job in the hands of bowlers.

As usual, posters here are behaving as if these ICC tournaments are the only things that matter even though 90% games played are JAMODIs.

AB has plenty of 60 ball 100s. Now using a simple logic, the faster you score the bigger the total you will set and chances of winning is the biggest there. So we can also set a benchmark of 60 ball 100s and ABD would outperform everyone in that. This was one of the reason why SA won an ODI series in India. Those fast 100s took the game away in the first inning itself and as a result they won the series something which no non Asian team has been able to do in this decade. Anyone can put any benchmark as per their liking.
 
You should strop trolling now.

First you write winning WC is a function of a team and then you gave a detailed explanation why de Villiers hasn't done great on big occasion. Rubbish.

And since cricket is just about chasing, players should stop scoring runs while batting first. Right?

Kohli's chasing ability is only limited to Asia where he can chase out any total.

<B>de Villiers has won matches/series everywhere in the world while Kohli hasn't won a single series outside Asia.</B>

This is one fact. Choosing parameters as your wish isn't everything. This is hyprocisy at its best.

Wait ,bowlers excuse is about to come but there is no doubt that people will here still make a long post on how de Villiers batting down the order costed WC semis 15 while conveniently ignoring the fact that the bowlers lost SA that match. If you are not defending 300 total in 43 overs, you are the one who will get the blame, not the batsmen.
 
Top 5 ODI batsmen IMO:

Viv
Tendulkar
Ponting
AB
Kohli

Kohli should surpass AB in longer run but as of now the latter is clearly superior.

Dhoni has a bigger legacy as a cricketer not as a batsmen. He is at no.6. It's absurd to rate players whole career based on one innings. Bevan was a great finisher too and he will come next followed by Gilchrist.
 
And there is also no doubt now that Virat Kohli is easily the most overrated/ over hyped cricketer in history of world cricket.
 
Bigger the occasion better the player.

Kohli has been even worse than de Villiers when you take that 29 age period.

Scoring in CT is not a great achievement. WCs are the pinnacle and Kohli is rubbish there.

I also like how you conveniently ignore my point that Kohli hasn't won any single series outside Asia and is yet to dominate a single ICC tournament.

Like I said, very convenient.

As for dominating ICC tournaments...

ICC CT 2009: 95.00 AVG
ICC CT 2013: 58.66 AVG
ICC WC 2015: 50.83 AVG
ICC CT 2017: 129.00 AVG
 
Absolutely laughable that [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] is acting as if chasing a target is tougher than setting one. Neither is inherently easier or more difficult because a lot of it depends on the pitch, the opposition and the batsman's own preference.

There is a reason India have always preferred chasing, until very recently, they certainly would not be batting second if it was that more difficult than batting first. Same goes for Australia and even England, to a degree, these teams prefer chasing and if it was so difficult, they would bat first whenever they win the toss, which is not the case.

A team like Pakistan which has a strong bowling attack that can defend most totals would prefer batting first but even that is not set in stone. We have chosen to chase plenty of times as well.

As far as individual batsmen are concerned, if you ask Kohli, he'll say chasing is easier because he's more confortable with it. Chasing lets you know exactly what your target that, how fast you need to score and provides you with a good three hours during the opposition's innings to figure out how the pitch is behaving

If you ask ABD, he'll say batting first is easier and that is because he is more comfortable with that. Batting first allows you time to settle into your innings and even a slow start will not frustrate you too much because you don't have a run-rate you have to keep up with.

There are also negatives of both which are fairly simple and don't require a mention.

Like I said, very convenient.

As for dominating ICC tournaments...

ICC CT 2009: 95.00 AVG
ICC CT 2013: 58.66 AVG
ICC WC 2015: 50.83 AVG
ICC CT 2017: 129.00 AVG

Choked in all of them and the 2011 WC when it mattered except the 2013 CT where he was thankfully tasked with batting in a T20 match, something he is exceptional at.
 
Top 5 ODI batsmen IMO:

Viv
Tendulkar
Ponting
AB
Kohli

Kohli should surpass AB in longer run but as of now the latter is clearly superior.

Dhoni has a bigger legacy as a cricketer not as a batsmen. He is at no.6. It's absurd to rate players whole career based on one innings. Bevan was a great finisher too and he will come next followed by Gilchrist.

I would make slight changes:

1) Viv
2) ABD
3) Ponting
4) Sachin
5) Amla/Kohli
 
And there is also no doubt now that Virat Kohli is easily the most overrated/ over hyped cricketer in history of world cricket.

No doubts about this. Second best ODI batsman of all time? :))

Guy has zero match-winning centuries against Aus, Eng, SA away, never won his team a match against these teams away either. He also has a terrible WC KO record and is a bunny against swing and seam.

It's telling when people start bringing up his WT20 performances into the equation because he has done nothing of note in WC KO matches. As if there is no difference between the pressure of a WT20 and a World Cup.
 
I would make slight changes:

1) Viv
2) ABD
3) Ponting
4) Sachin
5) Amla/Kohli

I agree completely. Amla has atleast won a series with bat in England and Sri Lanka and has scored a hundred against an attack of Starc and Johnson in Australia. Kohli has won nothing in ICC tournaments as well as anything outside Asia. However, hyprocisy level is only limited while talking about Indians and against South Africans.

At age xx , amla was also averaging 58 @SR 90 odd but those points are irrelevant because it is not matching with the argument of someone's favourite player.
 
No doubts about this. Second best ODI batsman of all time? :))

Guy has zero match-winning centuries against Aus, Eng, SA away, never won his team a match against these teams away either. He also has a terrible WC KO record and is a bunny against swing and seam.

It's telling when people start bringing up his WT20 performances into the equation because he has done nothing of note in WC KO matches. As if there is no difference between the pressure of a WT20 and a World Cup.

Greatest batsmen of all time - This is one of those gems that you can remember for a long time till your stay in Pakpassion.

It actually sounds better than David Miller > Dhoni as a hitter which is regarded as a gem though.
 
I think the generation that has grown up watching Kohli, think he's the greatest simply because they didn't see enough of the earlier batsmen and/or they don't appreciate what the innings and runs meant in those times. If I was 16 years old I would think Kohli was from another world!
 
[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]

Chasing is a tougher job than setting target. We have had many batsmen who were prolific when it comes to setting totals, but the great chasers have been less common. In addition, Kohli is one of a kind because he is a rare top-order batsman who is also a brilliant finisher.

It is not common for a top-order batsman to anchor a run chase and then finish the job as well. He is a Tendulkar and Dhoni/Bevan rolled into one.
 
I think the generation that has grown up watching Kohli, think he's the greatest simply because they didn't see enough of the earlier batsmen and/or they don't appreciate what the innings and runs meant in those times. If I was 16 years old I would think Kohli was from another world!


There is a generation of observers like ours who grew up in the 80s and 90s but recognize Kohli for the masterclass ODI batsman that he is. He has set the bar very high and it transcends intangible factors like pitches, rules, quality of opposition etc.

There have been many great players but very few revolutionaries. Viv Richards, Sachin etc. were revolutionaries in ODIs for different reasons, and Kohli has reached that level as well. There have been many great anchors and many great finishers, but no one before him mastered the art of anchoring the innings and also finishing the job himself.

Hardly any batsman before him has been able to grab the game by the balls and runs away with it. His batting intelligence and game awareness is incredible.

It is human tendency to overrate the past and underrate the present. People will truly appreciate Kohli's ODI batting when he is long gone, because we are witnessing a player who is going to be the benchmark of ODI batting for generations to come.
 
This is such a ridiculous logic. Choosing parameters as per your liking.

Now since Kohli is the greatest chaser, chasing is the parameter set by you. Those two points only shows how good a player is under pressure situation. There is no doubt that Kohli is better pressure player than AB. But is that enough to make any conclusion on AB? There is more to ODI cricket than that- performance against better attacks and winning series in different countries( this is one challenge I put now).

Runs in first innings also count for a lot because if you are not setting a big total, you are leaving the job in the hands of bowlers.

As usual, posters here are behaving as if these ICC tournaments are the only things that matter even though 90% games played are JAMODIs.

AB has plenty of 60 ball 100s. Now using a simple logic, the faster you score the bigger the total you will set and chances of winning is the biggest there. So we can also set a benchmark of 60 ball 100s and ABD would outperform everyone in that. This was one of the reason why SA won an ODI series in India. Those fast 100s took the game away in the first inning itself and as a result they won the series something which no non Asian team has been able to do in this decade. Anyone can put any benchmark as per their liking.

de Villiers is a better striker than Kohli, he has a gear which Kohli hasn't. However, Kohli's batting intelligence, composure, and match awareness is superior to de Villiers.

Chasing totals is a bigger challenge than setting totals. It is a fact that is beyond dispute.
 
[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]

Sorry for the double tag, forgot to comment on it in the previous post.

India have preferred to chase because they have had the greatest chaser and the greatest finisher of all time in their team. That doesn't make chasing easier; they are simply playing to their strength.

Chasing continues to be a difficult job for most other teams, and let's not even talk about Pakistan.
 
Taking a page from Mamoon's book, AB can do everything that Kohli can but Kohli cannot do everything that AB can.

I personally think Kohli is better but just want to make a point that how ridiculous is that logic when comparing batsmen.

de Villiers is a better hitter for sure, but Kohli is as good in other aspects if not better, and he is also the greatest chaser of all time.
 
[MENTION=146277]logicsupreme[/MENTION]

You can't quantify everything into numbers. Look at what Kohli has achieved even before entering his peak years. He is the first batsman since Tendulkar to become an ODI ATG before hitting his peak.

Tendulkar was also run machine but Kohli has an edge to his game that the former did not possess. He is simply a more deadly player who will run away with the game if you do not get him early. He takes complete control of the proceedings at the crease and becomes invincible if you allow him to settle.

Undoubtedly the greatest match-winning ODI batsmen since Viv, ahead of Ponting and Tendulkar. Match-winning does not mean he has to win every game; match-winning means that if he scores runs, he will make a difference almost every time.

His chasing ability is greater than any batsman ever, and that is why for me he is ahead of Tendulkar and Ponting now. As far as Viv is concerned, I think Kohli is a great World Cup or a great World Cup knockout win away from surpassing him. He hasn't been a failure in the Champions Trophy at all; he simply failed in one final, just like Viv failed in 1983.

He had a very good Champions Trophy overall, has a World Cup hundred against Pakistan and played a crucial match-defining innings in the 2013 Champions Trophy Final.

Viv raised the bar in ODIs by showing the word that you can be prolific at a high SR; Kohli has raised the bar by proving that it is possible to chase down 300+ totals with frightening consistency, and a top-order batsman can also be a great finisher.

He has redefined ODI batting like Viv and just like every player of the current generation idolizes Viv, every player of the future generations will idolize Kohli. He is the most influential batsman of this era by some distance.
 
de Villiers is a better striker than Kohli, he has a gear which Kohli hasn't. However, Kohli's batting intelligence, composure, and match awareness is superior to de Villiers.

Chasing totals is a bigger challenge than setting totals. It is a fact that is beyond dispute.

In my view, at this moment Kohli is not even in the top 2 batsmen among the active players who are yet to retire. He has failed to win a single series outside Asia and hasn't dominated a single major ODI tournament.

He has a long way to go to even make it to top5 ODI batsmen of all time, let alone calling him the greatest batsmen ever or second to Viv.

Scoring useless runs outside Asia and winning matches at home vs Aus( second string attack), Eng, NZ, Pak and SL isn't enough to be rated as one of top 5 cricketers of all time. You have to do it across different countries and in their backyard.

He is yet to dominate a single individual ODI tournament also.
 
In my view, at this moment Kohli is not even in the top 2 batsmen among the active players who are yet to retire. He has failed to win a single series outside Asia and hasn't dominated a single major ODI tournament.

He has a long way to go to even make it to top5 ODI batsmen of all time, let alone calling him the greatest batsmen ever or second to Viv.

Scoring useless runs outside Asia and winning matches at home vs Aus( second string attack), Eng, NZ, Pak and SL isn't enough to be rated as one of top 5 cricketers of all time. You have to do it across different countries and in their backyard.

He is yet to dominate a single individual ODI tournament also.

de Villiers has been playing LOIs cricket for over a decade but he has not won a single LOI match in any tournament with his bat. That is a telling stat, but he is still a LOIs legend because he has often been let down by his teammates, especially the chief choker who opens for his team.

Similarly, winning a series in XYZ countries is a function of the team rather than the player. Kohli has scored runs in all countries but his bowlers have let him down. Give South Africa's bowling to India and he will win you a series outside Asia.

His runs have been made useless by his bowlers. He has played quality knocks in all countries.
 
What is this supposed to prove? De Villiers didn't develop as a batsman until 25.

Kohli was a better batsman at the same age minus SR.

Not that hard to understand. :)

BUT I will work with you and take a look at AB's performance (25-29) vs Kohli's (25-29).

ABD (25-29): 10 ODI 100s
Kohli (Ages 25-29): 19 ODI 100s
 
de Villiers has been playing LOIs cricket for over a decade but he has not won a single LOI match in any tournament with his bat. That is a telling stat, but he is still a LOIs legend because he has often been let down by his teammates, especially the chief choker who opens for his team.

Similarly, winning a series in XYZ countries is a function of the team rather than the player. Kohli has scored runs in all countries but his bowlers have let him down. <B>Give South Africa's bowling to India and he will win you a series outside Asia.</B>

His runs have been made useless by his bowlers. He has played quality knocks in all countries.

The same bowling that costed SA the WC semifinal?? Or you will argue that NZ chased down 300 in 43 overs and yet it was not bowler's fault who lost them that match?

Dhoni has led and won a series in Aus with the match winning knock from the bat in 2nd final. They also won a series in NZ in 2009-10 and in England in 2012-13. It is not that Kohli is the only cricketer who is playing with rubbish attack.

One can also say that you give Indian clutch finisher Dhoni to SA and AB will also win the WC.

And the series AB won in India didn't had any pivotal role from SA bowlers as it was AB and to extent Qdk who won them the series.
 
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Kohli was a better batsman at the same age minus SR.

Not that hard to understand. :)

BUT I will work with you and take a look at AB's performance (25-29) vs Kohli's (25-29).

ABD (25-29): 10 ODI 100s
Kohli (Ages 25-29): 19 ODI 100s

Oh Plz
No of matches??
Batting position??

Or it works only as per your liking? Or shouldn't you post averages to make things clearer.
 
Among the current players the top two batsmen are AB and Dhoni.

As a cricketer, MS Dhoni is the greatest among active ODI players.
 
<B>de Villiers has been playing LOIs cricket for over a decade but he has not won a single LOI match in any tournament with his bat.</B>That is a telling stat, but he is still a LOIs legend because he has often been let down by his teammates, especially the chief choker who opens for his team.

Similarly, winning a series in XYZ countries is a function of the team rather than the player. Kohli has scored runs in all countries but his bowlers have let him down. Give South Africa's bowling to India and he will win you a series outside Asia.

His runs have been made useless by his bowlers. He has played quality knocks in all countries.

I think this should be included in it. 70 off 76 balls vs NZ in CT. So you should stop mentioning that.

http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard_ODI.asp?MatchCode=3022

And are you including WT20s too??
 
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Oh Plz
No of matches??
Batting position??

Or it works only as per your liking? Or shouldn't you post averages to make things clearer.

ABD: 53 Matches (0.18 100s per Match)
Kohli: 83 Matches (0.22 100s per Match)

Averages and SRs were posted over a longer span in my original post (start of career to age 29).
 
ABD: 53 Matches (0.18 100s per Match)
Kohli: 83 Matches (0.22 100s per Match)

Averages and SRs were posted over a longer span in my original post (start of career to age 29).

Thank You. Kohli bats at 3 while ABDV bats at 4-5.

However, I do agree that Kohli has slightly better hundred conversion rate.
 
[MENTION=146277]logicsupreme[/MENTION]

You can't quantify everything into numbers. Look at what Kohli has achieved even before entering his peak years. He is the first batsman since Tendulkar to become an ODI ATG before hitting his peak.

Tendulkar was also run machine but Kohli has an edge to his game that the former did not possess. He is simply a more deadly player who will run away with the game if you do not get him early. He takes complete control of the proceedings at the crease and becomes invincible if you allow him to settle.

Undoubtedly the greatest match-winning ODI batsmen since Viv, ahead of Ponting and Tendulkar. Match-winning does not mean he has to win every game; match-winning means that if he scores runs, he will make a difference almost every time.

His chasing ability is greater than any batsman ever, and that is why for me he is ahead of Tendulkar and Ponting now. As far as Viv is concerned, I think Kohli is a great World Cup or a great World Cup knockout win away from surpassing him. He hasn't been a failure in the Champions Trophy at all; he simply failed in one final, just like Viv failed in 1983.

He had a very good Champions Trophy overall, has a World Cup hundred against Pakistan and played a crucial match-defining innings in the 2013 Champions Trophy Final.

Viv raised the bar in ODIs by showing the word that you can be prolific at a high SR; Kohli has raised the bar by proving that it is possible to chase down 300+ totals with frightening consistency, and a top-order batsman can also be a great finisher.

He has redefined ODI batting like Viv and just like every player of the current generation idolizes Viv, every player of the future generations will idolize Kohli. He is the most influential batsman of this era by some distance.

Yes everything cannot be measured, such as leadership ability. Without facts and numbers though your thoughts are just statements. In order to back up your statements you need reason backed up by facts. At the moment you have not given a single fact that makes him an all time great. His 300 chase totals, are they all in Asia? The FACTS are that he does not have a single century in WC or CT. He has NOT played a defining innings in any of those tournaments. The FACT that he has played 200 ODIs and not done this is evidence enough that he cannot possibly be an ATG.

And as for 'surpassing' Viv. I mean seriously. He needs to surpass AB first. Then he needs to surpass Ponting and Tendulkar. He has a long long way to go!
 
Yes everything cannot be measured, such as leadership ability. Without facts and numbers though your thoughts are just statements. In order to back up your statements you need reason backed up by facts. At the moment you have not given a single fact that makes him an all time great. His 300 chase totals, are they all in Asia? <B>The FACTS are that he does not have a single century in WC or CT.</B> He has NOT played a defining innings in any of those tournaments. The FACT that he has played 200 ODIs and not done this is evidence enough that he cannot possibly be an ATG.

And as for 'surpassing' Viv. I mean seriously. He needs to surpass AB first. Then he needs to surpass Ponting and Tendulkar. He has a long long way to go!

He has one against Pakistan in WC 2015 but I think they were ranked no.8 back then and were coming from home series loss to Bangladesh of all.

I am sure WI of 2007 playing WC in their backyard shouldn't be classified as minnows either as the hundred vs Pak in WC 15 is all what people keep talking about.
 
Here are more stats.

ABD in his 28th Birthday Year: 80.75 AVG at 95.28 SR (9 ODIs)
Kohli in his 28th Birthday Year: 76.84 AVG at 99.11 SR (26 ODIs)

Incredible batsmen.

I think ABD has been hurt badly because he didn't get enough ODIs in his prime. Complete joke for a star batsman to only play 9 ODIs in one of his prime years.

But this also sheds light on Kohli's ability. Averaging 76+ over almost three times as many matches is ridiculous consistency.
 
So, among active players, we can conclude that the top5 are :

de Villiers/Dhoni
Dhoni/ de Villiers
Kohli
Amla
Rohit
 
So, among active players, we can conclude that the top5 are :

de Villiers/Dhoni
Dhoni/ de Villiers
Kohli
Amla
Rohit

Lol at Dhoni, maybe three years back but now Mushfiq, Dhawan, Babar etc are all better batsman than Dhoni.
 
So, among active players, we can conclude that the top5 are :

de Villiers/Dhoni
Dhoni/ de Villiers
Kohli
Amla
Rohit

I disagree with Dhoni here. I think he is behind both Kohli and de Villiers, one of the two is at top which is debatable.
 
There is a generation of observers like ours who grew up in the 80s and 90s but recognize Kohli for the masterclass ODI batsman that he is. He has set the bar very high and it transcends intangible factors like pitches, rules, quality of opposition etc.

There have been many great players but very few revolutionaries. Viv Richards, Sachin etc. were revolutionaries in ODIs for different reasons, and Kohli has reached that level as well. There have been many great anchors and many great finishers, but no one before him mastered the art of anchoring the innings and also finishing the job himself.

Hardly any batsman before him has been able to grab the game by the balls and runs away with it. His batting intelligence and game awareness is incredible.

It is human tendency to overrate the past and underrate the present. People will truly appreciate Kohli's ODI batting when he is long gone, because we are witnessing a player who is going to be the benchmark of ODI batting for generations to come.

You overrate Kohli so much. You are arguing as if he is the best batsmen of this generation by miles.
 
You overrate Kohli so much. You are arguing as if he is the best batsmen of this generation by miles.

He is the best batsman of this generation across all formats. 2010-2020 is going to be remembered as the Kohli era.
 
Yes everything cannot be measured, such as leadership ability. Without facts and numbers though your thoughts are just statements. In order to back up your statements you need reason backed up by facts. At the moment you have not given a single fact that makes him an all time great. His 300 chase totals, are they all in Asia? The FACTS are that he does not have a single century in WC or CT. He has NOT played a defining innings in any of those tournaments. The FACT that he has played 200 ODIs and not done this is evidence enough that he cannot possibly be an ATG.

And as for 'surpassing' Viv. I mean seriously. He needs to surpass AB first. Then he needs to surpass Ponting and Tendulkar. He has a long long way to go!

Facts and stats are meaningless without context. He has a significant century in World Cups, and his 2-3 innings in the Champions Trophy have been invaluable when you put it into context. A half-century is not necessary inferior to a hundred.

For example, his unbeaten 70 against SA when both de Villiers and Amla failed was a great innings, and so was his vital innings in the 2013 Champions Trophy Final.

Stats alone will tell you that Amla is the second best ODI opener of all time. However, that couldn't be further from the truth. He has already surpassed de Villiers, Tendulkar and Ponting.
 
I think this should be included in it. 70 off 76 balls vs NZ in CT. So you should stop mentioning that.

http://www.howstat.com.au/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard_ODI.asp?MatchCode=3022

And are you including WT20s too??

My mistake. my point was that de Villiers has been playing LOIs cricket for over a decade but he has not won a single KNOCKOUT match in any tournament with the bat. It was a typing error on my part.

However, the WT20 game vs England in 2014 can be considered a knockout technically if you want. Nonetheless, it is very a eye-opening fact when you consider how good de Villiers has been in Limited Overs, and I have already explained why. He simply doesn't grab the game by the scruff and win games for his team like Kohli does, even though he is more gifted.
 
[MENTION=146277]logicsupreme[/MENTION] [MENTION=139595]Ab Fan[/MENTION]

If we start micro-analysing every career, no player will be free from any scrutiny. Except for maybe McGrath.

- Bradman's average got halved in the only series where he was forced out of his comfort-zone

- Lillee has zero achievements in the subcontinent but he is still an ATG

- Tendulkar has failed in two World Cup Finals, but he is undoubtedly the best ODI opener ever

- Lara is considered as one of the greatest players of spin, but was very poor in India

- Saeed Anwar is considered an ATG ODI opener, but he was a walking wicket in Australia and South Africa

- Ponting has failed in many knockouts, but he had the luxury of playing for a very strong team which means he got many opportunities. Not to forget, like Lara, he was poor in India

- The two best bowling attacks during Viv's time were WI and Pakistan. He didn't face the WI attack, and he was nothing special against Pakistan. Is that a blemish on his career? Absolutely not.

- Botham's best period came when most of the top players went AWOL from international cricket and were busy playing for Kerry Packer

All this talk of Kohli not having match-winning hundreds in XYZ countries and not chasing 300+ totals against XYZ countries in XYZ venues etc. is hogwash.

He is entering his peak years now, but he has already achieved more than 99% of the ODI batsmen in history. He is well on his way to GOAT status, and it is laughable to claim that he is not an ATG yet.
 
My mistake. my point was that de Villiers has been playing LOIs cricket for over a decade but he has not won a single KNOCKOUT match in any tournament with the bat. It was a typing error on my part.

However, the WT20 game vs England in 2014 can be considered a knockout technically if you want. Nonetheless, it is very a eye-opening fact when you consider how good de Villiers has been in Limited Overs, and I have already explained why. He simply doesn't grab the game by the scruff and win games for his team like Kohli does, even though he is more gifted.

WT20 2014 vs England was the one which was a must win situation and a virtual knockout. Now, I can understand your points and I completely agree that he is not that great under pressure moments but I don't think you can really say that he can't win big games or pressure games on his day.

I gave you three examples or ODI matches in ICC tournaments against non minnows which he has won for his team and then there is glittering array of many high quality knocks where he was let down by his teammates.

He has also won matches/series everywhere across the world except Australia where no one has won. He has also proved himself against quality bowling attacks all round the world.

I would argue that this is now turning out to be a micro analysis when we are expecting him to win a knockout match even though he has scored runs and came close to do that but was let down by his bowlers in WC semis who couldn't defend 300 in 43 overs.

You gave bowlers excuse on Kohli's regard but clearly that match was lost by SA bowlers.

And for someone who is regarded as the top 5 ODI batsmen of all time and top2 according to you, I would argue he has to win a series outside Asia with the bat. This is the first thing to go. I don't think this is any kind of micro analysis and hence at this moment I will put him behind Dhoni and de Villiers among all active players in the world taking their overall career.
 
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