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Was Malcolm Marshall the most lethal paceman of them all?

Harsh Thakor

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Statistics maybe another criteria but the most important factor is how lethal was a pace bowler.Sheer speed is not the only factor .It is a combination of speed,with accuracy,control,movement and other variations.Infact often the slower ball is more effective than the quicker one.Some paceman were only lethal on wickets of pace and bounce while others bowled even better on slow tracks with their variations and craft.

Arguably if I had to pick a bowler for any conditions from the quickest to the slowest wicket I may pick Malcolm Marshall.True he may not have posesed Jeff Thomson or Shiaib Akhtar's sheer pace,Michael Holding's classic action and speed through the air ,was not as complete in the classical sense as Dennis Lille or Andy Roberts,did not posess the accuracy of Joel Garner and Curtly Ambrose the reverse-swinging prowess of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younus or the control of Richard Hadlee and Glen Mcgrath.However in a total package arguably Marshall surpassed them all as he posessed every component.What was extraodinary in Mashall was his ability to skid the ball and brilliantly deploy the crease like no paceman ever.Infact his skidding deliveries were often more lethal than the lerg-cutters of Dennis Lille ,the yorkers of Curtly Ambrose or the inswingers of Imran Khan.He swung the ball in and out with the same action and reading him was often like facing a googly delivery from a spinner.He created a prodigious banana swing .On the youtube I just saw his spell at Adelaide in 1984-85 where he obtained bounce from the deadest of tracks and often looked more lethal than evenn Dennis Lillee with his skidding deliveries.At a slower pace he was almost unplayable in England in 1988 disguising the movement of the ball and creating unpredictable bounce.True it was not equal to Dennis Lillee in the classical sense or not as magical in the context of pure artistry as Wasim Akram but it was a combination of classical art and magic in it's own right.Marshall posessed some deliveries in his armoury that no paceman could bowl.

Marshall's main rival was Wasim Akram.the ultimate magician amongst paceman.No fast bowler could reverse swing a ball with as much skill as Wasim who could tricks with a cricket ball that no paceman could.I wonder what seperated Wasim from Marshall.Wasim was more talented but did not have Marshall's control,accuracy and consistency.In terms of swing and movement Akram was ahead but with regards to bounce Marshall was the master.Some critiques consider Wasim Akram the more complete bowler than Malcolm Marshall with his great repertoire in addition to bounce and movement. Amongst the West Indian quickies Andy Roberts was the closest to Marshall and at his best in 1974-76 it may have been very close.Only on a bowlers paradise could Ambrose match Marshall.Marshall bowled his best spells on slower wickets like at Sydney in 1988-89.

Graham Gooch and Alan Border rate Marshall as the most difficult fast bowler they ever faced and so does Dilip Vengsarkar.The batsman of the 1970's like Sunil Gavaskar,Barry Richards and the Chappell brothers rate Andy Roberts the best.Remember Gavaskar did not face Marshall at his moral peak,while the others did not even face him.

Generally amongst experts Dennis Lillee or earlier Ray Lindwall were considered maybe even more complete but I still feel Marshall and Akram were the ultimate wizards.

Watching the youtube of spells of great fast bowlers I found no sight as menacing to behold as Marshall running in resembling a Geek God exuding fire.No pace bowler's deliveries would rear upto batsmen as visciously or with such unpredictability or seam ,swing and bounce so late.

Quoting Mike Selvey of cricinfo

Marshall's supreme excellence created debate that, from the rum shops of Oistins to the clubs and bars around the world, continues to this day. Who has been the fastest? Who is considered the best? Was it Ray Lindwall, the supreme craftsman, with complete control of swing, yorker and bouncer, or his compatriot Dennis Lillee, bristling and explosive, with a command of cut like no other of his pace before? Could it be the aristocratically haughty Imran Khan or Wasim Akram - both magicians of reverse-swing - or the deadly Waqar Younis, whose strike rate in his pomp was second to none? What about Curtly Ambrose, portrayed in calypso as The Master, the professor Andy Roberts, the inquisitor Glenn McGrath, or the surgeon that was Hadlee? Will the rampant South African, Dale Steyn, one day be so regarded?

Always the argument seems to come back to Marshall. There was nothing he seemed to lack, except perhaps height. But at 5ft 9in or so, around the same as Harold Larwood, he managed to turn that to his advantage, skidding the ball on where others might stick the ball in the pitch. He offered swing and cut, searing pace, a bouncer that seemed to climb to chin height rapidly and then level off, coming skimmingly flat; a supreme cricketing intellect that could spot flaws in an instant and smell fear, and a ruthless streak that made no concession in the pursuit of success for his team or, as in the case of Vengsarkar, occasionally of a personal vendetta.

We can start with his action. In his younger days he ran a distance, the vogue thing that had little to do with rhythm and everything to do with menace. He came in on the angle, slithering to the crease, his twinkling feet encased not in heavy bowling boots but little more than carpet slippers. Later in his career he recognised that his speed did not depend on the length of the run, but that stamina did, and he cut it down. He was open-chested at delivery, against the teaching of the manuals, but in such a neutral position that he didn't need to telegraph, through a change in action, any intention to swing the ball one way or another. And his arm was wickedly fast - twitch fast, as could be said, for example, of the golf swing of Tiger Woods.


Malcolm Marshall celebrates a wicket, England v West Indies, 2nd Test, Lord's, 2nd day, June 17, 1988
What he lacked in height, Marshall made up with pace, movement and cricket intellect © PA Photos
Enlarge

Next came the tools of the trade. He swung the ball - manipulated it with hand and wrist rather than relying on a body action to do the job as many so-called swing bowlers do - outswing and inswing at will, the latter being the pace bowler's googly. He was all but impossible to read, though, for his grip remained essentially the same for both, the change coming only in a movement of the supporting thumb. Of his bouncer, we have already spoken, a potent weapon, occasionally used to excess when allowed, occasionally, for no apparent reason, against lesser batsmen, who were left bemused, not to say bruised, by the assault.

From Dennis Lillee he learned the legcutter, which he employed on dusty wickets. Against England in Gwalior, in the Nehru Cup of 1989, he produced a first ball of such startling pace to Allan Lamb - a rare England thorn in West Indian flesh during his career - that it pitched around middle stump, squaring the batsman, before jagging away and plucking out off stump. In its way it was as devastating a delivery as can ever have been bowled. He could assess the pace and productivity of a pitch, could adjust accordingly, and possessed the gift of analysis allied to instinct, which could undermine any batsman. Finally came resilience, stamina and courage.

Almost invariably the debate returns to the two figures: Lillee, the prototype modern fast bowler, and Marshall. Most would admit little more than a coat of varnish between the pair. None would quibble if the other got the nod. But Lillee had no record on the heartbreaking pitches of the subcontinent, in the days before reverse-swing made their abrasiveness into a virtue, not playing a single Test in India, and managing only three wickets in as many Tests on desperate surfaces in Pakistan in 1979-80. Marshall succeeded in Pakistan and in India. Both were complete fast bowlers. When they buried Marshall though, they interred the epitome of sustained fast-bowling excellence. He really was the best of the very best.

Marshall's supreme excellence created debate that, from the rum shops of Oistins to the clubs and bars around the world, continues to this day. Who has been the fastest? Who is considered the best? Was it Ray Lindwall, the supreme craftsman, with complete control of swing, yorker and bouncer, or his compatriot Dennis Lillee, bristling and explosive, with a command of cut like no other of his pace before? Could it be the aristocratically haughty Imran Khan or Wasim Akram - both magicians of reverse-swing - or the deadly Waqar Younis, whose strike rate in his pomp was second to none? What about Curtly Ambrose, portrayed in calypso as The Master, the professor Andy Roberts, the inquisitor Glenn McGrath, or the surgeon that was Hadlee? Will the rampant South African, Dale Steyn, one day be so regarded?

Always the argument seems to come back to Marshall. There was nothing he seemed to lack, except perhaps height. But at 5ft 9in or so, around the same as Harold Larwood, he managed to turn that to his advantage, skidding the ball on where others might stick the ball in the pitch. He offered swing and cut, searing pace, a bouncer that seemed to climb to chin height rapidly and then level off, coming skimmingly flat; a supreme cricketing intellect that could spot flaws in an instant and smell fear, and a ruthless streak that made no concession in the pursuit of success for his team or, as in the case of Vengsarkar, occasionally of a personal vendetta.

We can start with his action. In his younger days he ran a distance, the vogue thing that had little to do with rhythm and everything to do with menace. He came in on the angle, slithering to the crease, his twinkling feet encased not in heavy bowling boots but little more than carpet slippers. Later in his career he recognised that his speed did not depend on the length of the run, but that stamina did, and he cut it down. He was open-chested at delivery, against the teaching of the manuals, but in such a neutral position that he didn't need to telegraph, through a change in action, any intention to swing the ball one way or another. And his arm was wickedly fast - twitch fast, as could be said, for example, of the golf swing of Tiger Woods.


Malcolm Marshall celebrates a wicket, England v West Indies, 2nd Test, Lord's, 2nd day, June 17, 1988
What he lacked in height, Marshall made up with pace, movement and cricket intellect © PA Photos
Enlarge

Next came the tools of the trade. He swung the ball - manipulated it with hand and wrist rather than relying on a body action to do the job as many so-called swing bowlers do - outswing and inswing at will, the latter being the pace bowler's googly. He was all but impossible to read, though, for his grip remained essentially the same for both, the change coming only in a movement of the supporting thumb. Of his bouncer, we have already spoken, a potent weapon, occasionally used to excess when allowed, occasionally, for no apparent reason, against lesser batsmen, who were left bemused, not to say bruised, by the assault.

From Dennis Lillee he learned the legcutter, which he employed on dusty wickets. Against England in Gwalior, in the Nehru Cup of 1989, he produced a first ball of such startling pace to Allan Lamb - a rare England thorn in West Indian flesh during his career - that it pitched around middle stump, squaring the batsman, before jagging away and plucking out off stump. In its way it was as devastating a delivery as can ever have been bowled. He could assess the pace and productivity of a pitch, could adjust accordingly, and possessed the gift of analysis allied to instinct, which could undermine any batsman. Finally came resilience, stamina and courage.

Almost invariably the debate returns to the two figures: Lillee, the prototype modern fast bowler, and Marshall. Most would admit little more than a coat of varnish between the pair. None would quibble if the other got the nod. But Lillee had no record on the heartbreaking pitches of the subcontinent, in the days before reverse-swing made their abrasiveness into a virtue, not playing a single Test in India, and managing only three wickets in as many Tests on desperate surfaces in Pakistan in 1979-80. Marshall succeeded in Pakistan and in India. Both were complete fast bowlers. When they buried Marshall though, they interred the epitome of sustained fast-bowling excellence. He really was the best of the very best.
 
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Yes statistically and if you watch him bowl. Is the greatest fast bowler of all time
 
Thanks for a great post.

“If I ever get a chance to be reborn as a cricketer, I would want to be Wasim Akram" - Allan Border

A reporter once asked Wasim Akram:
If you could change your career with any other bowler, who would it be?
Wasim: Malcolm Marshall.
You will exchange it, just like that…
Wasim: Haaaan! Araam say. (Yes! Just like that).

Both Akram and Imran Khan said (iirc) that Malcolm Marshall is the greatest among all pacers.

maco_2730697b.jpg
 
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Marshall and Waqar is a truer comparison than Marshall and Lillee
 
Seems like a superior version of Dale Steyn when you watch his videos on Youtube. Would surely have been a sight to watch him bowl live.

Any reason why he under-performed in ODIs? a bowler of his caliber should have had at least a couple of 5 wicket hauls in over 130 games.
 
The champion Malcolm was, doesn't surprise the flatter the wicket better he performed :wasim
 
He was a bit like Steyn but much better!

IMO, only Wasim can rival him.
 
Seems like a superior version of Dale Steyn when you watch his videos on Youtube. Would surely have been a sight to watch him bowl live.

Any reason why he under-performed in ODIs? a bowler of his caliber should have had at least a couple of 5 wicket hauls in over 130 games.

Yeah, Khurram Manzoor and Asad Shafiq can only score 100s vs Marshall in their wildest dreams :yk

There are donkeys and horses Mamoon... then there are donkeys and stallions!! and Malcom was the best of 'em all :ik
 
Marshall was the ultimate fast bowler. He had no weakness which a lot of other ATG pacers did have.
 
I don't get Lille's hype to be honest. Failed in the sub-continent which is the ultimate test for any fast bowler.
 
Yeah, Khurram Manzoor and Asad Shafiq can only score 100s vs Marshall in their wildest dreams :yk

There are donkeys and horses Mamoon... then there are donkeys and stallions!! and Malcom was the best of 'em all :ik

Maybe the would have, if Marshall was supported by rubbish like Morkel and a trundler like Philander. :yk
 
Lillee seems a bit like Johnson to me. Won't be surprised if this current Johnson fails in the UAE and India/Sri Lanka. He doesn't have enough skill with the ball and if his pace and bounce is mellowed, he can be severely hampered.

But reputation alone can be enough for our batsmen. :misbah
 
Lillee seems a bit like Johnson to me. Won't be surprised if this current Johnson fails in the UAE and India/Sri Lanka. He doesn't have enough skill with the ball and if his pace and bounce is mellowed, he can be severely hampered.

But reputation alone can be enough for our batsmen. :misbah

As long as the ball doesn't move, they'll do fine against Johnson. Azhar, Younis, Misbah and even Shafiq are fighters.
 
Akhtar and Bond on their "days" were just as lethal and peak Waqar was the most lethal bowler ever even ahead of Marshall i would assume but Marshall was consistently lethal over a long career. Steyn and Donald would be a better comparison to Marshall imo in that they have been deadly over a period of 70 odd tests.
 
wasim looks like his only competitor(Lillee can be other) when you consider completeness as a bowler( seam , Swing and Genuine pace gear), but wasim with all his talent let down at times either because of discipline, politics or probably you can also factor in toll of docile Pak wickets on body as compared to fast, disconcerting Caribbean ones during 80s.

Thanks for fine OP Harsh
 
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Graham Gooch and Alan Border rate Marshall as the most difficult fast bowler they ever faced and so does Dilip Vengsarkar.The batsman of the 1970's like Sunil Gavaskar,Barry Richards and the Chappell brothers rate Andy Roberts the best.Remember Gavaskar did not face Marshall at his moral peak,while the others did not even face him.

Gavaskar faced Maco in the 1983/4 series in India (in which Maco comprehensively outbowled Roberts IIRC).

I do think that Maco was the best I ever saw. He was horribly quick and skiddy when he was young, and could move it both ways in the air and off the deck at pace little short of express as an older man.
 
I don't get Lille's hype to be honest. Failed in the sub-continent which is the ultimate test for any fast bowler.

Exactly !! The bowling version of Mahela Jayawardene.

Back in those days ... if you did well against England thats all that mattered.
 
Lillee seems a bit like Johnson to me. Won't be surprised if this current Johnson fails in the UAE and India/Sri Lanka. He doesn't have enough skill with the ball and if his pace and bounce is mellowed, he can be severely hampered.

But reputation alone can be enough for our batsmen. :misbah

Never seen him play live but from what I have seen in highlights and what I have heard and read about him from those who saw him or played against him - Lillee was twice the bowler Johnson is even post injury.
 
I don't get Lille's hype to be honest. Failed in the sub-continent which is the ultimate test for any fast bowler.

Lillee wasn't all hype man. He put the fear of God in batsmen the world over. And was actually the main reason Lloyd went searching for his four pronged fast bowling machine that lead to a decade of dominance.

No hype. Stats won't tell you everything. Never saw him play live but grew up watching his highlights on TV in Aus and heard some scary first hand accounts of his pace and guile.
 
Kill Kill Lillee Kill. That was a chant from Aussie fans. Lol.
 
Lillee definitely scared and dominated batsmen mentally. Perhaps the current Johnson is the closest one can get to the Lillee of back in the day.
 
The one thing I can say about Lillee is that everyone of the generation that saw him has no hesitation in nominating him as a better bowler than McGrath
 
I think, it's a close call between MM & Lille. I didn't see Lille, but almost every great batsman of that time actually rates DK as the best Fast bowler. I think, Imran rates 2 players at the top Richards & Lille. It's true that Lille was overpraised by English media for his Ashes heroics but still, he is definitely among the top 3-4 Fast bowlers of all time, along with Marshall. He had the true Fast bowlers mentality, always attacking & extremely cunning. Also, one should remember that DK lost 3 of his best years to WSC. Due to SAF's exile from Test Cricket, 1971-72 SAF tour of AUS was cancelled & was replaced by a World XI team. DK was simply outstanding against a batting line up having Sobers, Loyd, Kanhai, Gavasker, Zaheer, Ackermann, Tony Greig, RG Pollck & Intekhab Alm. His 8-29 at WACA was probably as good a Fast bowler can be ever. I have never seen him live, but must be something special at his peak & everybody praises his commitment, aggressiveness & focus. He was the spearhead of a very good Aussie team for almost a decade & half.

Marshall on contrary was less noticed during his fastest period (it's a bit difficult to stand out among Holding, Garner, Roberts, Clark & Davis). It's in his later days he became standout among his peers, bowling at a slightly reduced pace with lots of venom. & if anything but, Marshall & Styen are two totally different type of bowlers - Styens deadliest weapon is late away movement in air, Marshall got it cut off the seam at awkward bounce. On green tracks, both 'll be unplayable, but on grass-less surface, it's difficult to match MM, ever. Probably, in terms of pure bowling attributes (pace, swing, cutters, late movement, bounce) Marshall was better than Lille, but I am not sure about the total package. Nobody, nobody can match Lille in his "Fast Bowler's Attitude". However, on unresponsive wicket, Marshall probably was much better.

Whom should I pick in my XI, would like to have both, but if it's a single choice, still not sure; however, Marshall was a much better bat, so may be edge out as No. 9-10 batsman in my team.
 
Isn't lillee more known for his charisma and that give-it-everything attitude? Both MM and Wasim are better than him. Its like comparing Steyn and Johnson(in this era)- Johnson may be lethal on bouncy wickets but his threat rapidly declines on SC wickets. Malcolm could produce just as ferocious spells in the SC as he could on helpful wickets actually, on helpful wickets, MM and Curtly Ambrose become the most fearsome bowlers of all time IMO
Lillee isn't even that good.
 
Marshall has edge over Lillie. If you rate top 10 fast bowlers of all times , you will have both , but I guess most would choose Marshall if given just one choice.
 
Isn't lillee more known for his charisma and that give-it-everything attitude? Both MM and Wasim are better than him. Its like comparing Steyn and Johnson(in this era)- Johnson may be lethal on bouncy wickets but his threat rapidly declines on SC wickets. Malcolm could produce just as ferocious spells in the SC as he could on helpful wickets actually, on helpful wickets, MM and Curtly Ambrose become the most fearsome bowlers of all time IMO
Lillee isn't even that good.

I think Wasim is rated more highly because he is left armer.
 
I think Wasim is rated more highly because he is left armer.
definitely, he underachieved especially considering how complete he was(should have averaged about 21 but oh well). Since there aren't much legendary lefties, Wasim is the best with little competition.
 
My father tells me Marshall could extract bounce from the pitch like no other bowler. He could make batsmen hop taking evasive action to save their faces from good lengths.
 
definitely, he underachieved especially considering how complete he was(should have averaged about 21 but oh well). Since there aren't much legendary lefties, Wasim is the best with little competition.

Davidson would be the only real competition
Johnson's had a few great series but a lot of mediocre stuff in between and Reid was never fit enough to make use of what potential he had.
 
The one thing I can say about Lillee is that everyone of the generation that saw him has no hesitation in nominating him as a better bowler than McGrath

People generally tend to prefer out n out aggressive fast bowlers and arguably Lillee influenced a whole generation of bowlers including Hadlee and Imran . Though whether he was actually better than McGrath is debatable.
 
People generally tend to prefer out n out aggressive fast bowlers and arguably Lillee influenced a whole generation of bowlers including Hadlee and Imran . Though whether he was actually better than McGrath is debatable.

And of course DK is the hero of Western Australian cricket so it's hardly an unbiased source. Speak to any Western Australian and he'll always try to claim the fellow West Aussie as number 1
 
definitely, he underachieved especially considering how complete he was(should have averaged about 21 but oh well). Since there aren't much legendary lefties, Wasim is the best with little competition.

Played far too long. Should have retired from Tests after the Asian test championship or at least after getting his 400 wickets. Last few matches, he barely picked any wickets.
 
I think, it's a close call between MM & Lille. I didn't see Lille, but almost every great batsman of that time actually rates DK as the best Fast bowler. I think, Imran rates 2 players at the top Richards & Lille. It's true that Lille was overpraised by English media for his Ashes heroics but still, he is definitely among the top 3-4 Fast bowlers of all time, along with Marshall. He had the true Fast bowlers mentality, always attacking & extremely cunning. Also, one should remember that DK lost 3 of his best years to WSC. Due to SAF's exile from Test Cricket, 1971-72 SAF tour of AUS was cancelled & was replaced by a World XI team. DK was simply outstanding against a batting line up having Sobers, Loyd, Kanhai, Gavasker, Zaheer, Ackermann, Tony Greig, RG Pollck & Intekhab Alm. His 8-29 at WACA was probably as good a Fast bowler can be ever. I have never seen him live, but must be something special at his peak & everybody praises his commitment, aggressiveness & focus. He was the spearhead of a very good Aussie team for almost a decade & half.

Marshall on contrary was less noticed during his fastest period (it's a bit difficult to stand out among Holding, Garner, Roberts, Clark & Davis). It's in his later days he became standout among his peers, bowling at a slightly reduced pace with lots of venom. & if anything but, Marshall & Styen are two totally different type of bowlers - Styens deadliest weapon is late away movement in air, Marshall got it cut off the seam at awkward bounce. On green tracks, both 'll be unplayable, but on grass-less surface, it's difficult to match MM, ever. Probably, in terms of pure bowling attributes (pace, swing, cutters, late movement, bounce) Marshall was better than Lille, but I am not sure about the total package. Nobody, nobody can match Lille in his "Fast Bowler's Attitude". However, on unresponsive wicket, Marshall probably was much better.

Whom should I pick in my XI, would like to have both, but if it's a single choice, still not sure; however, Marshall was a much better bat, so may be edge out as No. 9-10 batsman in my team.

I can't see how someone could put Lillee above Waqar and Wasim when you're talking about the best quick bowlers.

Marshall and Waqar is a truer comparison here, more so than Wasim or Lillee
 
I think Wasim is rated more highly because he is left armer.

No because nearly every batsman of his generation rate him as the best bowler they faced.
He was by some distance the most gifted bowler of his generation.
 
Let me summarize it for y'all:

Lillee was the man who started it all. Imran Khan decided to become a fast bowler after watching Lillee bowl... later he modified his bowling action to Lillee's. And Wasim/Waqar/Shoaib all inspired from Imran. So indirectly Lillee was a legend who inspired ATG pacers.

On other side of ocean, West Indian captains (Lloyd/Sobers) decided to build there own pace battery after watching Lillee destroy. And world saw the 4 greatest and Ambrose/Walsh...

Lillee is da man yo!! Now maybe Lillee wasn't as complete as Wasim or as lethal as Malcolm but he will always be there when you talk about greatest pacers of all time (and I don't care whether he took wickets on phatta wickets or not)

nla.pic-vn3075746-v.jpg
 
I can't see how someone could put Lillee above Waqar and Wasim when you're talking about the best quick bowlers.

Marshall and Waqar is a truer comparison here, more so than Wasim or Lillee


I suggest you read 2 books - All Round View by Imran & Idols by Gavasker, regarding Lille. I am not taking any English or Aussie writers here. & by the way, both didn't have that good a relation with DK.
 
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Let me summarize it for y'all:

Lillee was the man who started it all. Imran Khan decided to become a fast bowler after watching Lillee bowl... later he modified his bowling action to Lillee's. And Wasim/Waqar/Shoaib all inspired from Imran. So indirectly Lillee was a legend who inspired ATG pacers.

On other side of ocean, West Indian captains (Lloyd/Sobers) decided to build there own pace battery after watching Lillee destroy. And world saw the 4 greatest and Ambrose/Walsh...

Lillee is da man yo!! Now maybe Lillee wasn't as complete as Wasim or as lethal as Malcolm but he will always be there when you talk about greatest pacers of all time (and I don't care whether he took wickets on phatta wickets or not)

View attachment 44941


To add with that, some English batsmen (Ammis & Cowdray I can recall) retired after '74 Ashes, battered by Lillie & Thommo.
 
I suggest you read 2 books - All Round View by Imran & Idols by Gavasker, regarding Lille. I am not taking any English or Aussie writers here. & by the way, both didn't have that good a relation with DK.

I will check them out. Gavaskar didn't face Waqar and Wasim to make a clear call on who was better though right?

I know how good Lillee was but when we're talking the greatest quicks ever the first two names that come to mind are MM and Waqar.
 
Yes I think the great Malcolm Marshall was the most feared paceman ever. I recall Imran Khan once telling Moin Akhter how most Pakistani batsmen were absolutely terrified to take guard against Maco. If he couldn't get you Malcolm was never hesitant in throwing a few deadly bouncers to soften you up. From old footage I see Mike Gatting's nose was rearranged whilst Andy Lloyd also had to make a trip to the hospital, he never represented England again. Mind you, Malcolm could also take blows like he did when batting against England with his arm in a caste.
 
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Lillee wasn't all hype man. He put the fear of God in batsmen the world over. And was actually the main reason Lloyd went searching for his four pronged fast bowling machine that lead to a decade of dominance.

No hype. Stats won't tell you everything. Never saw him play live but grew up watching his highlights on TV in Aus and heard some scary first hand accounts of his pace and guile.

I'm guessing that you didn't see him bowl.

No, I haven't seen him bowl live but obviously everyone looks good on Youtube. Even Ishant looks like an ATG in those fan-montages but the fact that he failed in the subcon is a very heavy argument against him.
 
From watching videos of him marshall seemed like a complete bowler to me There wasnt one method he was restricted to to get his wkts He was someone who could use any trick to snare opponents depending on the pitch, batsman and match situation presented to him

He wasnt overly super fast but quick enough n with his height, control n skill was always at the batsman testing and probing

He had all the tools and knew how to use them and his run up and action took very little out of him He is someone id say who was a true master of his art and perhaps the greatest bowler that has ever been
 
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only Gooch played Marshall well, rest of the batmens in the world failed
 
The most lethal bowler ever is a subjective question , there are no hard and fast rules , varies from person to person.

Bowlers like Lillie , Marshall , Imran , Waqar , Styen, Donald etc are world class , all had there moments and all have there strengths.

Even Haddle was deadly on certain pitches.
 
No because nearly every batsman of his generation rate him as the best bowler they faced.
He was by some distance the most gifted bowler of his generation.


Yes , to an extent I do agree. If you look for variety and ability to produce unplayable balls now and then Akram is probably best of this era , but if your yardstick is something different , then it may vary.
 
No, I haven't seen him bowl live but obviously everyone looks good on Youtube. Even Ishant looks like an ATG in those fan-montages but the fact that he failed in the subcon is a very heavy argument against him.

I saw him in 1981.

The "fail in the subcon" argument is easily dissected, and I have done so, but most people here choose to believe what they want rather than listen to debate. Lillee was highly effective on dead tracks - his own.
 
I think to get the respect of your peers would be an acceptable yardstick don't you think? Wasim Akram has always had, the respect and recognition of being one of the best ever by his peers. Most of the top batsmen of his era rate him as the finest bowler they have faced.
 
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I think to get the respect of your peers would be an acceptable yardstick don't you think? Wasim Akram has always had, the respect and recognition of being one of the best ever by his peers. Most of the top batsmen of his era rate him as the finest bowler they have faced.

Perhaps he beat them more times with more surprising deliveries than his contemporaries. But he was less likely to get them out than some.
 
Perhaps he beat them more times with more surprising deliveries than his contemporaries. But he was less likely to get them out than some.

His record suggests he didn't do too bad at getting them out as well. However, I do agree his deliveries were too good to nick most of the times which is a testament to his ability I suppose.

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No, I haven't seen him bowl live but obviously everyone looks good on Youtube. Even Ishant looks like an ATG in those fan-montages but the fact that he failed in the subcon is a very heavy argument against him.

It's a ridiculous argument, he played all of four Tests in the subcontinent. Four tests out of 70. It's like saying that someone failed at Cardiff and that is a heavy argument against them.

On topic, Marshall is the best I have seen, on any track. Could swing it, cut it, bounce it, slow it up everything. Wasim is the most talented bowler I have seen but he underachieved IMO.
 
It's a ridiculous argument, he played all of four Tests in the subcontinent. Four tests out of 70. It's like saying that someone failed at Cardiff and that is a heavy argument against them.

On topic, Marshall is the best I have seen, on any track. Could swing it, cut it, bounce it, slow it up everything. Wasim is the most talented bowler I have seen but he underachieved IMO.

One of the most unbiased comments RA, thanks. Lille was a craze,it's not that you need to be the best for a role model of your generation. Just like De Stefano or George Best were Football craze (not necessarily they are best at their time), in 70s, Great DK was something like synonymous to Fast bowling. At their peak, only one bowler, I believe could compete with Marshall - that was Waquar. Similar angelic run up, slingy action, blistering pace & always at the batsman. I believe, his attacking instincts actually resulted an inferior ODI figures for Marshal. Wasim was a genius, one of a kind. I think he under achieved for 4 reasons - 1. He was never physically 100%, 2. He had to fight within, none more than with his bowling partner, 3. He played fo probably the worst catching side mostly, had he got the Aussie cordon of his time, probably would have added another 70 to 100 wickets & 4. I always had questions regarding his integrity.
 
At their peak, only one bowler, I believe could compete with Marshall - that was Waquar. Similar angelic run up, slingy action, blistering pace & always at the batsman. I believe, his attacking instincts actually resulted an inferior ODI figures for Marshal.


I have often said this here on PP , Closest to Marshal was :waqar in his early part. Complete destruction.
 
It's a ridiculous argument, he played all of four Tests in the subcontinent. Four tests out of 70. It's like saying that someone failed at Cardiff and that is a heavy argument against them.

And three of those four were on wickets rigged to nullify him, when he was bowling with a back brace on and was only at medium pace. Still he bowled some very long accurate spells and Pakistan never got away.
 
One of the most unbiased comments RA, thanks. Lille was a craze,it's not that you need to be the best for a role model of your generation. Just like De Stefano or George Best were Football craze (not necessarily they are best at their time), in 70s, Great DK was something like synonymous to Fast bowling. At their peak, only one bowler, I believe could compete with Marshall - that was Waquar. Similar angelic run up, slingy action, blistering pace & always at the batsman. I believe, his attacking instincts actually resulted an inferior ODI figures for Marshal. Wasim was a genius, one of a kind. I think he under achieved for 4 reasons - 1. He was never physically 100%, 2. He had to fight within, none more than with his bowling partner, 3. He played fo probably the worst catching side mostly, had he got the Aussie cordon of his time, probably would have added another 70 to 100 wickets & 4. I always had questions regarding his integrity.

5. Quite a few lbw decisions went against him. Often had to get a batsman out twice. Wasim screaming in frustration at the umpire's decision or the hapless Pakistani fielding was quite a common sight.
 
And three of those four were on wickets rigged to nullify him, when he was bowling with a back brace on and was only at medium pace. Still he bowled some very long accurate spells and Pakistan never got away.

Wickets in Pakistan have never assisted the quick bowlers. Lillee is an ATG but will still be rated a shade below Steyn,
Marshall, McGrath who were deadly all over the world.
 
I didn't see Lillee bowl, but I saw Marshall and he scared the batsmen of that era witless. Very deceptive with his pace and that bouncer broke a few bones.
 
It's a ridiculous argument, he played all of four Tests in the subcontinent. Four tests out of 70. It's like saying that someone failed at Cardiff and that is a heavy argument against them.

On topic, Marshall is the best I have seen, on any track. Could swing it, cut it, bounce it, slow it up everything. Wasim is the most talented bowler I have seen but he underachieved IMO.

I've heard he purposely dodged tours to India so him only playing 4 tests was his fault. And how can you compare failing in a continent to failing in a particular city?
 
I've heard he purposely dodged tours to India so him only playing 4 tests was his fault. And how can you compare failing in a continent to failing in a particular city?

Because it's quite possible to play four tests in Cardiff over a career, even for an Australian.

I think you have been listending to some uniformed talk on Lillee. Did Australia tour India during DK's career? Yes, in 1979 while he was playing for Packer with Thommo, the Chappells and Rod Marsh. To be blunt, they had a better job offer.

The man turned up to Pakistan, that fast bowler's graveyard, half-fit and bowled a lot of overs. A lesser man would have declared himself unfit. Given the state of his muscular health it would be accurate to say that he played a blinder for his team. He was an extremely determined and focused man who never backed down regardless of injury or conditions, which is why Imran rates him as the best fast bowler of all.
 
Because it's quite possible to play four tests in Cardiff over a career, even for an Australian.

I think you have been listending to some uniformed talk on Lillee. Did Australia tour India during DK's career? Yes, in 1979 while he was playing for Packer with Thommo, the Chappells and Rod Marsh. To be blunt, they had a better job offer.

The man turned up to Pakistan, that fast bowler's graveyard, half-fit and bowled a lot of overs. A lesser man would have declared himself unfit. Given the state of his muscular health it would be accurate to say that he played a blinder for his team. He was an extremely determined and focused man who never backed down regardless of injury or conditions, which is why Imran rates him as the best fast bowler of all.

So determined that he swore to never tour the subcontinent after the mauling he got there .... way to go. Iam pretty sure what your reaction would have been if a asian player did the same after an aussie series. Sorry but DKL is a home track bully.
 
So determined that he swore to never tour the subcontinent after the mauling he got there .... way to go. Iam pretty sure what your reaction would have been if a asian player did the same after an aussie series. Sorry but DKL is a home track bully.

But he didn't get mauled.
 
But he didn't get mauled.

3 Wkts for 101 runs each in 3 Tests that he played in Pakistan . He went Wicketless in 2 of the Tests. Thats a mauling.

I have a lot more respect for Kapil and Vaas who played most of their cricket on these dead pitches and picked up a lot of wickets.
 
For those who saw Marshall, as well as those who have seen Roach - how similar is he to him? As in, not statistically, but is he in the same mould?

Roach seems to also be a thinking bowler, who can move it both ways at good speed, and extract bounce even without the advantage of height.
 
Gaz is the best offie of all time because everyone else was cannon fodder in Australia.
 
People came to see Michael Jordan play because they would be entertained with something special that they never saw before. Same with Marshall. He would produce something special spell at any given time. MJ of cricket bowling.
 
For those who saw Marshall, as well as those who have seen Roach - how similar is he to him? As in, not statistically, but is he in the same mould?

Roach seems to also be a thinking bowler, who can move it both ways at good speed, and extract bounce even without the advantage of height.

Not at all similar. Roach is all muscle through the ball, Marshall was smooth as silk.
 
3 Wkts for 101 runs each in 3 Tests that he played in Pakistan . He went Wicketless in 2 of the Tests. Thats a mauling.

I have a lot more respect for Kapil and Vaas who played most of their cricket on these dead pitches and picked up a lot of wickets.

Kapil and Vaas will be very happy to hear you rate them higher than Lillee.
 
3 Wkts for 101 runs each in 3 Tests that he played in Pakistan . He went Wicketless in 2 of the Tests. Thats a mauling.

I have a lot more respect for Kapil and Vaas who played most of their cricket on these dead pitches and picked up a lot of wickets.

That is a bit too far. I rate Lillee lower than other ATG's but he is an ATG, those two were not even in the 'very good' category of bowlers, IMO.
 
3 Wkts for 101 runs each in 3 Tests that he played in Pakistan . He went Wicketless in 2 of the Tests. Thats a mauling.

As I stated, he was bowling with his back in a brace at military medium pace. Look at his economy figures, and look at how little Imran bowled, knowing there was nothing in the wicket for him either. The PCB were willing to nullify their own big gun into order to sabotage Lillee! I think Lillee's effort in Pakistan was heroic, given his fitness at the time.
 
As I stated, he was bowling with his back in a brace at military medium pace. Look at his economy figures, and look at how little Imran bowled, knowing there was nothing in the wicket for him either. The PCB were willing to nullify their own big gun into order to sabotage Lillee! I think Lillee's effort in Pakistan was heroic, given his fitness at the time.

If Lillee's efforts were heroic based on ONE single series played in Asia ... please be fair to rate Kapil and Vaas based on the same yardstick given that each played numerous series against faar tougher opposition consisting of faar better batsmen on equally dead tracks than what Lillee came up against. Also dont forget the fact that both never complained about the tracks and were faar fitter than DKL to play a lot many more Tests.
 
To give some perspective : Kapil played a total of 86 Tests in Asia Alone ! Thats 16 more than What DKL could manage in his entire career. No offense but DKL would have died of exhaustion had been asked to play even half as many Tests - say 40 odd - in ASIA.

And Kapils Performance in AUS is a lot closer to DKL's Home record than is DKL's record in ASIA as compared to Kapils.
 
To give some perspective : Kapil played a total of 86 Tests in Asia Alone ! Thats 16 more than What DKL could manage in his entire career. No offense but DKL would have died of exhaustion had been asked to play even half as many Tests - say 40 odd - in ASIA.

And Kapils Performance in AUS is a lot closer to DKL's Home record than is DKL's record in ASIA as compared to Kapils.

But what about difference of pace between Kapil and Lillee?

Don't want to offend anyone here but Kapil was a mere trundler comparing to Lillee
 
To give some perspective : Kapil played a total of 86 Tests in Asia Alone ! Thats 16 more than What DKL could manage in his entire career. No offense but DKL would have died of exhaustion had been asked to play even half as many Tests - say 40 odd - in ASIA.

And Kapils Performance in AUS is a lot closer to DKL's Home record than is DKL's record in ASIA as compared to Kapils.

Not one expert would rate Kapil over Lillee he is seen as one of the pioneers of modern fast bowling. He helped Imran become the bowler he is and was a mentor to Andy Roberts. Kapil was a good bowler great by Indian standards but not an ATG bowler.

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Not one expert would rate Kapil over Lillee he is seen as one of the pioneers of modern fast bowling. He helped Imran become the bowler he is and was a mentor to Andy Roberts. Kapil was a good bowler great by Indian standards but not an ATG bowler.

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Iam aware of that and I dont claim KD to be a ATG bowler. Nor is DKL a ATG bowler for reasons that I have explained in my previous posts. Most of these experts that you refer to will also turn a blind eye to this aspect of DKL career where he was only good in 3 Countries : Eng/Aus/NZ. None of them will give you a fair explanation for his reluctance to touring Asia. There will be excuses like those given by Robert.

If I were asked to choose between DKL and KD I would go for KD in a heart beat. A champion player and someone who played to entertain the crowds. He would never back down and whinge if the conditions were flat like DKL did. I wont even bring his Batting, Fielding and Captaincy where there is no comparison to be made between him and DKL.
 
Murali confirmed for poor because he never performed in the hardest conditions for off spinners.

Gaz is ATG
 
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