What are your views about the Kashmir issue?

[Wasim_Waqar]

We are on the same page on many things. You are talking about 80s and 90s. I am talking about the larger time frame. Since partition took place in 1947, Kashmiris always wanted to join Pakistan. ALWAYS. This demand for independence is recent in its origin especially after Nawz sharief's Kargil episode. And mostly only young boys and girls want this.

You were saying 80% of people want independence which can not be proved in anyway. There have been bo official or reliable surveys or anything for this. My point is clear, we dont know what the people will choose until a referendum takes place so it would be wrong to assume anything.

If you are taking nepal as a standard then i must say thats a very poor standard. And it proves my point too. Nepal is landlocked, going through instability and infighting since decades, is a puppet of India and financially poor.

If you just want a sovereign j&k on paper, with people living in fear everytime and has a puppet regime which takes orders from other regional powers, then its your opinion and i wont support such "sovereignty" because its a sham.



Indian hardliners arent the same as kashmiri militants. Their goal was a secular set up while we have some (not all) militant factions which abhor a secular state. These would cause problems if we dont possess a strong muscle to coerce them into the mainstream. Its really childish to think they will just accept all terms of new govenment.

The minor movement of independence really was promoted by Indian agent Hashim Qureshi. Now apparently his son is in the UN. Disgusting.

 

[UN talkz]

We are on the same page on many things. You are talking about 80s and 90s. I am talking about the larger time frame. Since partition took place in 1947, Kashmiris always wanted to join Pakistan. ALWAYS. This demand for independence is recent in its origin especially after Nawz sharief's Kargil episode. And mostly only young boys and girls want this.

You were saying 80% of people want independence which can not be proved in anyway. There have been bo official or reliable surveys or anything for this. My point is clear, we dont know what the people will choose until a referendum takes place so it would be wrong to assume anything.



If you are taking nepal as a standard then i must say thats a very poor standard. And it proves my point too. Nepal is landlocked, going through instability and infighting since decades, is a puppet of India and financially poor.

If you just want a sovereign j&k on paper, with people living in fear everytime and has a puppet regime which takes orders from other regional powers, then its your opinion and i wont support such "sovereignty" because its a sham.



Indian hardliners arent the same as kashmiri militants. Their goal was a secular set up while we have some (not all) militant factions which abhor a secular state. These would cause problems if we dont possess a strong muscle to coerce them into the mainstream. Its really childish to think they will just accept all terms of new govenment.

Look I am not taking Nepal as a standard but Nepal being probably weakest nation in South Asia and China being a Superpower in world despite that China can't harm Nepal becoz no country was to get sanctions from UN and other countries....
Kashmir has a large and healthy deposits of NATURAL RESOURCES..... we supply electricity to whole north India and some to some central parts as well.... some of the world's most precious gems are found here and we have an extremely fertile land with natural irrigation facilities.... and water resources are abundant.... and still 80% of resources are not discovered yet and this is all about IOK... I dont know about POK and they surely would have great natural resources....

Now look HM is the only outfit that wants SHARIAH LAW to be established and we know they can change their stance to secular state.... as i earlier said and u can also check that HM had agreed to MUSHARAF'S FOUR POINT FORMULA... And that isn't a big deal becoz at the end they are kashmiris and they would surely agree with APHC's ideology....
If u r talking abt LeT and JeM..... Sorry but their ideologies have no takers in Kashmir and nobody wants them to be involved in our struggle as this simply isn't a religious struggle...

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Look I am not taking Nepal as a standard but Nepal being probably weakest nation in South Asia and China being a Superpower in world despite that China can't harm Nepal becoz no country was to get sanctions from UN and other countries....
Kashmir has a large and healthy deposits of NATURAL RESOURCES..... we supply electricity to whole north India and some to some central parts as well.... some of the world's most precious gems are found here and we have an extremely fertile land with natural irrigation facilities.... and water resources are abundant.... and still 80% of resources are not discovered yet and this is all about IOK... I dont know about POK and they surely would have great natural resources....

Now look HM is the only outfit that wants SHARIAH LAW to be established and we know they can change their stance to secular state.... as i earlier said and u can also check that HM had agreed to MUSHARAF'S FOUR POINT FORMULA... And that isn't a big deal becoz at the end they are kashmiris and they would surely agree with APHC's ideology....
If u r talking abt LeT and JeM..... Sorry but their ideologies have no takers in Kashmir and nobody wants them to be involved in our struggle as this simply isn't a religious struggle...

We believe in the ideology of Pakistan and Kashmiris have the support of the people of Pakistan. India doesn't support the Kashmiri people.

Your argument doesn't wash with us. It's a Hindu nationalist argument. Militancy is not why Kashmir supports Pakistan.

Kashmir can't survive independently in the winter. Natural routes to Srinagar are via Pindi.

The outcome of right of self determination is subjective of course but I strongly believe Kashmir valley will become part of Pakistan

 

[UN talkz]

We believe in the ideology of Pakistan and Kashmiris have the support of the people of Pakistan. India doesn't support the Kashmiri people.

Your argument doesn't wash with us. It's a Hindu nationalist argument. Militancy is not why Kashmir supports Pakistan.

Kashmir can't survive independently in the winter. Natural routes to Srinagar are via Pindi.

The outcome of right of self determination is subjective of course but I strongly believe Kashmir valley will become part of Pakistan

what was that and who told u that.... do u mean People from POK can only come to Srinagar only through Pindi???? wat argument is that.

Kashmir can't survive independently in the winter.

who told u that.... i mean do u know anything abt kashmir.... then how do we survive in winters??????????..... we are the people who still clear the snow on roads using hand made tools and the few machines that are available are of BABA ADAM's time.... we believe in doing the job ourselves rather than asking someone to do it...
The distance from Baramulla to Poonch is just 20 KMS but because of of LOC we have to travel 600 Kms to reach Poonch... if u know we have the best connectivity and we are a major part of Silk road.....
Ua arguments are baseless check the facts.... dont get too much emotional...

 

[UN talkz]

We believe in the ideology of Pakistan and Kashmiris have the support of the people of Pakistan. India doesn't support the Kashmiri people.

Your argument doesn't wash with us. It's a Hindu nationalist argument. Militancy is not why Kashmir supports Pakistan.

Kashmir can't survive independently in the winter. Natural routes to Srinagar are via Pindi.

The outcome of right of self determination is subjective of course but I strongly believe Kashmir valley will become part of Pakistan

When did i say that..... and wat for Kashmir should support Pakistanis... are there any crisis in Pakistan.... Pakistan needs to support Kashmiris.....
not Kashmiris
And please keep aside ua communal views and agenda.... world is burning becoz of thez things

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I'm clinical about the situation. If in the unlikely event Kashmir chooses independence then so be it. However, don't see you particularly accepting of the potential outcome of Kashmiris choosing Pakistan.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

When did i say that..... and wat for Kashmir should support Pakistanis... are there any crisis in Pakistan.... Pakistan needs to support Kashmiris.....
not Kashmiris
And please keep aside ua communal views and agenda.... world is burning becoz of thez things

Pakistan does support Kashmiris in the valley!

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

This is what the future holds.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

what was that and who told u that.... do u mean People from POK can only come to Srinagar only through Pindi???? wat argument is that.

who told u that.... i mean do u know anything abt kashmir.... then how do we survive in winters??????????..... we are the people who still clear the snow on roads using hand made tools and the few machines that are available are of BABA ADAM's time.... we believe in doing the job ourselves rather than asking someone to do it...
The distance from Baramulla to Poonch is just 20 KMS but because of of LOC we have to travel 600 Kms to reach Poonch... if u know we have the best connectivity and we are a major part of Silk road.....
Ua arguments are baseless check the facts.... dont get too much emotional...

Merge with Pakistan, break the loc and go via muzaffarabad. Easy!

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

what was that and who told u that.... do u mean People from POK can only come to Srinagar only through Pindi???? wat argument is that.

who told u that.... i mean do u know anything abt kashmir.... then how do we survive in winters??????????..... we are the people who still clear the snow on roads using hand made tools and the few machines that are available are of BABA ADAM's time.... we believe in doing the job ourselves rather than asking someone to do it...
The distance from Baramulla to Poonch is just 20 KMS but because of of LOC we have to travel 600 Kms to reach Poonch... if u know we have the best connectivity and we are a major part of Silk road.....
Ua arguments are baseless check the facts.... dont get too much emotional...

Visit AJK before you use silly terms.

 

[UN talkz]

Visit AJK before you use silly terms.

I mean wat are u arguing about... atleast tell that...
I know a huge no. a people from AJK and many are my friends.... then wat?????
Tell me wat point are u trying to prove....
Wat silly term have i used...

 

[UN talkz]

Merge with Pakistan, break the loc and go via muzaffarabad. Easy!

Do u know wat independent Kashmir means....
it means whole KASHMIR that includes IOK, POK and Gilgit Baltistan...
Muzaffarabad would automatically come under independent Kashmir.

 

[UN talkz]

I'm clinical about the situation. If in the unlikely event Kashmir chooses independence then so be it. However, don't see you particularly accepting of the potential outcome of Kashmiris choosing Pakistan.

Kashmiris will choose Pakistan only if it is INDIA & PAKISTAN in referendum....
But it will definitely choose Independent Kashmir given that is also an option......
Mark these words maybe we will be able to see it happening...

 

[hussain123]

I think you are being too utopian here to be very honest. We cant wish away the militant factions after independence. Power corrupts. When Indian army would leave, it will create a power vacuum and these factions would come in to fill it and that could be disastrous for the civilian populace. To think that they will simply put down arms after freedom is achieved is very naive. They will obviously work to further their agendas of opposing a secular set up. Also being landlocked was just an example of our disadvantages. Intl. conventions remain on paper when it comes to conflicts. Our part of the world isnt liberal like the europeans and on ground the reality is always different. The threat of china looms over us as well who have an eye on parts of Ladakh.

Most militant factions except that bumbling zakir musa have lucid religious overtures.if possibility of freedom arises i don't think the world community will allow any arrangement in kashmir that see radicals acquire any political power.kashmiris have to prove it to the world that it believes and will uphold liberal deomcratic and pluralist values.but that is only when un resolutions are implemented.you are giving far too much importance to hoods like moosa and company.and ladakh ko kya krna hai humme.let them be with india.

 

[Madplayer]

Most militant factions except that bumbling zakir musa have lucid religious overtures.if possibility of freedom arises i don't think the world community will allow any arrangement in kashmir that see radicals acquire any political power.kashmiris have to prove it to the world that it believes and will uphold liberal deomcratic and pluralist values.but that is only when un resolutions are implemented.

So by saying that world community wont allow any such arrangement in Kashmir you agree that there would be instability and external powers would use Kashmir as a playground to quell any extremist attempts to gain power? Kashmiris are the most secular people, and you would know that being a Kashmiri but are u prepared for the consequences of such a conflict which will surely see a phase of anarchy? I am not. Dont want that for my people.

you are giving far too much importance to hoods like moosa and company

Its not just about Musa. You think other groups like lashkar would allow the sacrifices of their men to be used in making a secular state? Remember one thing, one agenda replaces another. There is no end to it. Same is the case with these groups. They will direct their focus towards other issues in Kashmir once Kashmir dispute is solved. On our own, we wont be able to do jack about it..we just dont have the force for it. It will end up in a civil war or something.

and ladakh ko kya krna hai humme.let them be with india.

Never in a million years. Entire j&k has to stay together. Ladakh is one of our unique assets and we surely dont want to lose it.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

What makes u think that we can't survive alone.... we are actually surviving alone with little or no help from indian authorities.... nobody at the time of partition had thought that PAKISTAN would survive this long but they have and survived better than most peoples expectations
..... COK is a gone thing becoz of negligence of India and Pakistan... and yes in independent kashmir i want POK too.

So ? We slayed our lives for you for this ? Thank you Sir.


Still I would say that if Majority Kashmiri want this and You should be given independence.


I know handful of Pakistani Kashmiris also want Independent Kashmir.


Pakistan's resources & geographical lication are not at all comparable with Kashmir (any Kashmir)


What you saying has no basis. IOK & POK get huge chunk of budget from Pakistan & Indian government.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Do u know wat independent Kashmir means....
it means whole KASHMIR that includes IOK, POK and Gilgit Baltistan...
Muzaffarabad would automatically come under independent Kashmir.

I was in Skardu and on the LoC in Keran last year. Zero appetite for independence.

Any appetite for independence is only in valley.

Let the people decide. I'm 100 percent confident the valley will join Pakistan.

 

[Madplayer]

So ? We slayed our lives for you for this ? Thank you Sir.


Still I would say that if Majority Kashmiri want this and You should be given independence.


I know handful of Pakistani Kashmiris also want Independent Kashmir.


Pakistan's resources & geographical lication are not at all comparable with Kashmir (any Kashmir)


What you saying has no basis. IOK & POK get huge chunk of budget from Pakistan & Indian government.

Trust me, these are speculations and personal opinions of people. Uman has his own pov but that in no way is the general consensus here. You will see this if a plebescite ever takes place.

 

[UN talkz]

So ? We slayed our lives for you for this ? Thank you Sir.


Still I would say that if Majority Kashmiri want this and You should be given independence.


I know handful of Pakistani Kashmiris also want Independent Kashmir.


Pakistan's resources & geographical lication are not at all comparable with Kashmir (any Kashmir)


What you saying has no basis. IOK & POK get huge chunk of budget from Pakistan & Indian government.

As far as IOK is concerned 90% of the budget is meant for security expenses... and of the remaining 10% almost majority of it goes into the piggy banks of politicians....
it takes 3-4 decades to complete the work on a simple 500 odd meter bridge.
So ? We slayed our lives for you for this ? Thank you Sir.

sorry couldn't understand this... elaborate please

 

[UN talkz]

Trust me, these are speculations and personal opinions of people. Uman has his own pov but that in no way is the general consensus here. You will see this if a plebescite ever takes place.

look i have said it earlier as well if in PLEBISCITE we have to choose bw INDIA AND PAKISTAN... then people will definitely choose Pakistan and there is no doubt about that...
But if its India, Pakistan and INDEPENDENT KASHMIR... then people will go with Independence...

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Trust me, these are speculations and personal opinions of people. Uman has his own pov but that in no way is the general consensus here. You will see this if a plebescite ever takes place.

Of course.

There are people like Uman and also two particular Kashmiri journalists living in London who are adamant that Kashmir valley wants independence, but I agree with you Madplayer.

The misinformation doesn't help from odd sources like Uman who's vote will be buried in a small minority come the referendum.

What can Pakistanis do to ensure Kashmir valley becomes Pakistan ASAP?!

 

[UN talkz]

So ? We slayed our lives for you for this ? Thank you Sir.


Still I would say that if Majority Kashmiri want this and You should be given independence.


I know handful of Pakistani Kashmiris also want Independent Kashmir.


Pakistan's resources & geographical lication are not at all comparable with Kashmir (any Kashmir)


What you saying has no basis. IOK & POK get huge chunk of budget from Pakistan & Indian government.

Look Sir the current and Official Stance of Pakistan Government is that they are ready:-
if Kashmir chooses Pakistan
if Kashmir chooses India
if kashmir chooses Independence

so if kashmiris or for the sake of argument I demand an INDEPENDENT KASHMIR so that the big deal in it...
why are you guys coming all guns blazing at me.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Look Sir the current and Official Stance of Pakistan Government is that they are ready:-
if Kashmir chooses Pakistan
if Kashmir chooses India
if kashmir chooses Independence

so if kashmiris or for the sake of argument I demand an INDEPENDENT KASHMIR so that the big deal in it...
why are you guys coming all guns blazing at me.

No. I just expressed my opinion. I fully agree if Kashmiris want Independent country fine. People's right of self determination should be respected 100 %


But You cannot deny the sacrifice Pakistani's gave in my shapes for you and you cannot say that India or Pakistan gave nothing to Kashmir. This argument is miles away from reality & facts. So at this I won't agree with you.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

As far as IOK is concerned 90% of the budget is meant for security expenses... and of the remaining 10% almost majority of it goes into the piggy banks of politicians....
it takes 3-4 decades to complete the work on a simple 500 odd meter bridge.
So ? We slayed our lives for you for this ? Thank you Sir.

sorry couldn't understand this... elaborate please

So ????


All the Roads, Schools, Colleges, Hospitals etc etc are all made through charity money collected by Kashmiris on their own ?


I disagree with you completely.


I am sorry Kashmiris cannot or should not be Ehsan Faramosh of Indians or Pakistanis by giving such statements which are baseless.


If you want Freedom fine it's your right. We also do not endorse the atrocities committed by Indian forces but You can't say India or Pak did not give anything to Kashmiris.

 

[UN talkz]

Of course.

There are people like Uman and also two particular Kashmiri journalists living in London who are adamant that Kashmir valley wants independence, but I agree with you Madplayer.

The misinformation doesn't help from odd sources like Uman who's vote will be buried in a small minority come the referendum.

What can Pakistanis do to ensure Kashmir valley becomes Pakistan ASAP?!

Dont compare me with any journalist....
What misinformation am i spreading....
tu kyaa behach kar rahaa hai yaar... [MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION] said it that he wants to see an independent Kashmir but he thinks we cannot survive alone (to which i dont agree) and he thinks the best option left is Pakistan.....
U are blowing hot and cold, i request u to just read the thread and comments once again, especially mine comments.

 

[UN talkz]

No. I just expressed my opinion. I fully agree if Kashmiris want Independent country fine. People's right of self determination should be respected 100 %


But You cannot deny the sacrifice Pakistani's gave in my shapes for you and you cannot say that India or Pakistan gave nothing to Kashmir. This argument is miles away from reality & facts. So at this I won't agree with you.

I didnt say that they gave nothing to us...
but look at this situation:-
if i am provided every help by the authorities and it is ensured that my future is secure and i am given all the best possible facilities.....
but of what use is it when they kill my brother or my cousin or my uncle... all these things are of no use and my hate for the country will remain etched in my heart always...

 

[UN talkz]

what is wrong in demanding an independent kashmir

 

[hussain123]

So by saying that world community wont allow any such arrangement in Kashmir you agree that there would be instability and external powers would use Kashmir as a playground to quell any extremist attempts to gain power? Kashmiris are the most secular people, and you would know that being a Kashmiri but are u prepared for the consequences of such a conflict which will surely see a phase of anarchy? I am not. Dont want that for my people.



Its not just about Musa. You think other groups like lashkar would allow the sacrifices of their men to be used in making a secular state? Remember one thing, one agenda replaces another. There is no end to it. Same is the case with these groups. They will direct their focus towards other issues in Kashmir once Kashmir dispute is solved. On our own, we wont be able to do jack about it..we just dont have the force for it. It will end up in a civil war or something.



Never in a million years. Entire j&k has to stay together. Ladakh is one of our unique assets and we surely dont want to lose it.

There may or may not be instabiity or anarchy of sorts if kashmir acquires independence.that is what newly born nation has to contend with.but if you look all such anarchist or radical elements are intricately linked with the conflict.once some resolution achieves shape such elements would consequently be tapped off.we may also acquire the services of un forces till things stabilise.and as far as groups like let or hm or jem there numbers are of no consequence and their umblical chord is connected with pak military establishment.so they will be taken care of.although i don't think any of this materializing any time soon and kashmiris may for now have to contend with northern Ireland type of resolution with india which is more like Musharraf's 4point formula.as far as ladakhis whosoever i met without any exception throw their weight with india.so dunno why should they shouldn't be let go off.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Dont compare me with any journalist....
What misinformation am i spreading....
tu kyaa behach kar rahaa hai yaar... [MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION] said it that he wants to see an independent Kashmir but he thinks we cannot survive alone (to which i dont agree) and he thinks the best option left is Pakistan.....
U are blowing hot and cold, i request u to just read the thread and comments once again, especially mine comments.

Infighting is why we get nowhere.

Look, there is the right of self determination. 3 options is fine. Get that first and then decide. Pointless speculating.

You can speak for yourself but for everyone about possible results!

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I didnt say that they gave nothing to us...
but look at this situation:-
if i am provided every help by the authorities and it is ensured that my future is secure and i am given all the best possible facilities.....
but of what use is it when they kill my brother or my cousin or my uncle... all these things are of no use and my hate for the country will remain etched in my heart always...

They should not kill you or others but why do they kill your brothers and cousins and uncles ? Why they don't kill you aswell ? Any differences in approach or attitude ?

 

[UN talkz]

They should not kill you or others but why do they kill your brothers and cousins and uncles ? Why they don't kill you aswell ? Any differences in approach or attitude ?

What was that.....
I was talking about a person who will go through such things.... then all money and lavish things wont matter at all.... in response to your query that Kashmiris are ahsaan faraamosh

 

[UN talkz]

Infighting is why we get nowhere.

Look, there is the right of self determination. 3 options is fine. Get that first and then decide. Pointless speculating.

You can speak for yourself but for everyone about possible results!

Look at my comments i mentioned that if plebescite gives only 2 options i.e. India and Pakistan... then people will definitely choose Pakistan and i wont have any problems with it becoz ot will be the decision of people and i will respect that.
..
i feel and my own view is that Kashmiris want Independent Kashmir.... And i have said this earlier as well that ""if"" we are given an option of INDEPENDENT KASHMIR then kashmiris will go with Independence....
why are u making me repeat these lines again and again and again and again.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

You can't claim to be voice of all Kashmiris. Madplayer and I disagree with you and you seem to be angry that we don't agree with you.

There will be people in the valley who will vote independence and for Pakistan. It is difficult to be certain what the overall outcome will be.

We should unite on step 1: to obtain right of self determination and then decide upon where Kashmir's future lies at that point! You're busy dividing...

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

What was that.....
I was talking about a person who will go through such things.... then all money and lavish things wont matter at all.... in response to your query that Kashmiris are ahsaan faraamosh

I asked you why they selectively kill few people ?

God forbid I don't want you or anyone on earth to lose his life in any un-natural way. May Allah bless you with a happy healthy long life.


Any difference between your uncles, cousins, brother's and Burhan Waani ? Or all have same ideology and same actions ?


You earlier denied by saying 90 % spent on army & 10 % given to pigs hence I corrected record. In that sense I meant Ehsaan Faramosh.

 

[UN talkz]

I asked you why they selectively kill few people ?

God forbid I don't want you or anyone on earth to lose his life in any un-natural way. May Allah bless you with a happy healthy long life.


Any difference between your uncles, cousins, brother's and Burhan Waani ? Or all have same ideology and same actions ?
They dont kill with an intention to only kill him i.e. they don't kill anyone selectively... They just kill anyone who comes in their way becoz they simply have been given powers to do so and they know they won't be punished come wat may...


You earlier denied by saying 90 % spent on army & 10 % given to pigs hence I corrected record. In that sense I meant Ehsaan Faramosh.

To kill 600000 people in a population of 7900000 isn't a few people....
A year ago they killed four guys who were travelling in a car in budgam area and butchered them with bullets so much that were unrecognisable and guess what the security personals were not punished...
It isn't something like that they kill somebody selectively...
Burhan wani was a part of HM but his ideology was completely different from that of HM.... He believed in a secular Kashmir and every year he used to release a welcome message for Amarnath Yatris...
He represented the ideas and views of people and believed in Independent kashmir

 

[akki]

Well all this discussions are pointless. There has to be civil war in country like india plus support from other superpowers as for kashmiris to have any nano chance to be independent. I dnt see any things changing in kashmir for couple of centuries rather than kashmiris at last accepting india as their motherland.

 

[UN talkz]

You can't claim to be voice of all Kashmiris. Madplayer and I disagree with you and you seem to be angry that we don't agree with you.

There will be people in the valley who will vote independence and for Pakistan. It is difficult to be certain what the overall outcome will be.

We should unite on step 1: to obtain right of self determination and then decide upon where Kashmir's future lies at that point! You're busy dividing...

Yeah my dear JIGAR i requested u several times to read the thread and my comments on this post carefully, but maybe u don't want to do it. so let me summarize it for you:-
1- We all here are on the same page here that is holding plebescite in kashmir... but our views are different. you demanding kashmir should merge with Pak and i want an independent pakistan...
2- I never claimed to be the representative of Kashmiris. I repeat what i said "" Hundreds and Thousands of kashmiris whom i know or with whom i have discussed this issue a large majority wants to see an independent Kashmir"". Being a resident of DOWNTOWN KASHMIR(the city of street rebels) the people here particularly youth generation want an independent Kashmir. i.e. why i said i feel 80% of kashmiris want to see an independent Kashmir.
3- My ultimate point is that i simply dont see referendum or plebescite taking place now... So what's the alternative... to me its OPEN BORDERS SOLUTION while guys here haven't given any possible alternate option.
4- U have made some nonsense allegations against me, despite that i requested u to read my posts... But u continued it by calling me biased and saying i post NONSENSE STUFF..... u clearly aren't able to understand what i am saying or wat my point is.
5- I have made it clear numerous times on this thread that if Kashmiris Choose Pakistan as a result of plebescite... i will respect that decision of people and wont go against people becoz majority matters. And all the guys here hav agreed that if people of Kashmir want an Independent Kashmir, then they shud get it. All the posters are on the same page regarding this except u, who simply doesn't talk except merging with Pakistan.. Similarly if people choose India... I will also accept that and respect the decision of people.
6- What divisions have i created????? I simply cant understand wat allegations u r hurling at me.
7- Let me make it loud and clear that i simply dont want to remain with India and that is no option becoz of the atrocities and tyranny imposed by them on us...


I hope this post will make things clear for u and u wont make allegations against me....

 

[UN talkz]

Well all this discussions are pointless. There has to be civil war in country like india plus support from other superpowers as for kashmiris to have any nano chance to be independent. I dnt see any things changing in kashmir for couple of centuries rather than kashmiris at last accepting india as their motherland.

we have been fighting for last 7 DECADES but unfortunately haven't got any support except from Pakistan and u have to accept that Pakistan isn't a Superpower but still we are extremely thankful to them they have raised this issue and supported us even during the time when Pakistan was facing worst situation in its country in the form of terrorism...
And we cant accept India as our motherland.... This generation and the last 4 generations haven't accepted it and future generations also wont accept that..

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

To kill 600000 people in a population of 7900000 isn't a few people....
A year ago they killed four guys who were travelling in a car in budgam area and butchered them with bullets so much that were unrecognisable and guess what the security personals were not punished...
It isn't something like that they kill somebody selectively...
Burhan wani was a part of HM but his ideology was completely different from that of HM.... He believed in a secular Kashmir and every year he used to release a welcome message for Amarnath Yatris...
He represented the ideas and views of people and believed in Independent kashmir

What sort of argument is this ? If his ideology wasn't that of HM than what he was doing in HM and with HM ?


By Pelting stones you think Kashmir will get independence from Nuclear State ? If Yes keep doing it.

But if it gets people killed with No Output in favour of Kashmiris than don't pelt stones tp damage your own loved ones gaining nothing.


Read Asian Human Rights Reports. In India aswell as Pakistan there have been many disappearances of people over the years with torchured deadbodies getting returned to people for x y z reasons. State and State institutes are accused of this. So Yes it is wrong, it is painful, it is unjust but it is not something which is done in Kashmir. Should stop.


Kashmiri, Chinese, Indian & Kashmiri leadership should Sit together and agree upon International Observers and conditions and go for Plebiscite including all areas of Kashmir. Than whatever Majority votes for should be accepted by all parties including you.


Otherwise there would be no resolution to this Problem.

 

[akki]

we have been fighting for last 7 DECADES but unfortunately haven't got any support except from Pakistan and u have to accept that Pakistan isn't a Superpower but still we are extremely thankful to them they have raised this issue and supported us even during the time when Pakistan was facing worst situation in its country in the form of terrorism...
And we cant accept India as our motherland.... This generation and the last 4 generations haven't accepted it and future generations also wont accept that..

Well the last thing you can do is to thanks pakistan. If it was not pakistan tgere was greater chance to be independent kashmir. Trust me.
Well good luck if you dnt want to accept but i thing demographics of kasmir will change and then it will be difficult to sustain this moment. India has to be alot of unstable country like civil war situation kind of plus kasmiris need to have sympathy of indians ,but right now they dnt even get sympathy of indian muslims. So i dnt see any future for this moment right now. But lets see how it goes.

 

[PakLFC]

I am sick of Kashmir and it's people who don't know what they want. One minute it's complete independence and the next a merger with Pakistan. I am beginning to think that for the benefit of Pakistan we should let it go completely. Kashmir has only caused trouble for Pakistan like a curse it is. Let India do whatever it wants or freedom fighters have their way. Kashmir is not the start or end of planet earth like their people seem to think. Plenty of other beautiful places in Pakistan without a cursed Kashmir as well.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I am sick of Kashmir and it's people who don't know what they want. One minute it's complete independence and the next a merger with Pakistan. I am beginning to think that for the benefit of Pakistan we should let it go completely. Kashmir has only caused trouble for Pakistan like a curse it is. Let India do whatever it wants or freedom fighters have their way. Kashmir is not the start or end of planet earth like their people seem to think. Plenty of other beautiful places in Pakistan without a cursed Kashmir as well.

Bhaijaan, I will tell you, people from Kashmir mostly want to be with Pakistan. India has brainwashed some to think of independence. No Kashmiri dislikes Pakistan.

The Indian brainwashing is precisely there to ensure that people react like you do. Rise above it. The truth is out there.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Well the last thing you can do is to thanks pakistan. If it was not pakistan tgere was greater chance to be independent kashmir. Trust me.
Well good luck if you dnt want to accept but i thing demographics of kasmir will change and then it will be difficult to sustain this moment. India has to be alot of unstable country like civil war situation kind of plus kasmiris need to have sympathy of indians ,but right now they dnt even get sympathy of indian muslims. So i dnt see any future for this moment right now. But lets see how it goes.

If it wasn't for Pakistan (I'm Pakistani), we in Kashmir would be the dust land of India. So let's be honest. Kashmir = Pakistan.

 

[PakLFC]

Bhaijaan, I will tell you, people from Kashmir mostly want to be with Pakistan. India has brainwashed some to think of independence. No Kashmiri dislikes Pakistan.

The Indian brainwashing is precisely there to ensure that people react like you do. Rise above it. The truth is out there.

Many Kashmiris do want complete freedom as well. They can have it providing every Kashmiri leaves mainland Pakistan never to return again. If Pakistan has no right on Kashmir then they also have no right on Pakistan. In that case get out of Islamabad and other Pak cities, they should be banned from using Pak educational institutions and everything else as well. We don't need the Kashmiris supporting the Pak Cricket. team either. Plenty of Kashmiris want complete independence as well.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

[MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION] will tell you the truth about the situation.

Btw when we are talking about Kashmir we are mainly talking Indian occupied valley.

AJK and GB are fully committed to Pakistan.

My references to "Kashmir" wanting to join Pakistan are related to Indian occupied valley.

 

[UN talkz]

What sort of argument is this ? If his ideology wasn't that of HM than what he was doing in HM and with HM ?


By Pelting stones you think Kashmir will get independence from Nuclear State ? If Yes keep doing it.

But if it gets people killed with No Output in favour of Kashmiris than don't pelt stones tp damage your own loved ones gaining nothing.


Read Asian Human Rights Reports. In India aswell as Pakistan there have been many disappearances of people over the years with torchured deadbodies getting returned to people for x y z reasons. State and State institutes are accused of this. So Yes it is wrong, it is painful, it is unjust but it is not something which is done in Kashmir. Should stop.


Kashmiri, Chinese, Indian & Kashmiri leadership should Sit together and agree upon International Observers and conditions and go for Plebiscite including all areas of Kashmir. Than whatever Majority votes for should be accepted by all parties including you.


Otherwise there would be no resolution to this Problem.

I have nothing to disagree abiut this post.... completely agree with u...
HM wanted burhan more than burhan wanted them.... he was a youth icon and people still consider him as their idol....
Burhan reason for choosing life of a rebel is something that brings tears in your eyes...

Look when we protest, only then people around the world realise that there is something wrong in Kashmir otherwise nobody talks about miseries faced by us..
And stone pelting takes place in a few places, few selected places, people are killed mostly because they protest.... peaceful protests and holding banners...
Nobody comes into the streets pelting stones at security personals.

 

[UN talkz]

Bhaijaan, I will tell you, people from Kashmir mostly want to be with Pakistan. India has brainwashed some to think of independence. No Kashmiri dislikes Pakistan.

The Indian brainwashing is precisely there to ensure that people react like you do. Rise above it. The truth is out there.

When did i say i dislike Pakistan....
wat makes u think so.

 

[UN talkz]

[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] wat do u think about [MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION] 's views

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] wat do u think about [MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION] 's views

End of the day, most Kashmiris in the valleys want to become Pakistan. In AJK and GB everyone does.

There will never be an independent Kashmir overall, maximum will be independent valley. Rather than waste time on here, work on achieving right of self determination.

 

[UN talkz]

End of the day, most Kashmiris in the valleys want to become Pakistan. In AJK and GB everyone does.

There will never be an independent Kashmir overall, maximum will be independent valley. Rather than waste time on here, work on achieving right of self determination.

I am doing here what this website is meant for...... DEBATING
If u dont want to debate, then dont.... i am not forcing u.

 

[rexbamezai]

I was shocked when I saw how so many Kashmiris reacted to the death of Mohammad Ayub Pandith..... Instead of condemning the act (many did condemn it, I'm not talking about everyone), they went to such great lengths to justify it.... Such an inhuman act in the holy month of Ramzan, how can it be justified!
Just two weeks or so ago, some barbarians killed 6 policemen, disfigured their faces, and didn't let their dead bodies be taken for a funeral.... This incident too saw them trying to shift the blame from the terrorists......
http://www.risingkashmir.com/news/kashmir-divided-on-social-media-over-policemens-killing
https://twitter.com/sameeryasir/status/875979281511325697
Then that DPS Srinagar incident, oh god.....
The death of Lieutenant Ummer Fayaz....
And then you see crowds gathering after namaaz shouting "Hizbul Mujahideen, Hizbul Mujahideen!"
14 year olds are going into militancy! What has stone pelting achieved till now? How is all this helping anyone? In the end, it's we, the Kashmiris who are suffering! The focus should be on development, getting an education, improving living standards.....
http://theindianvoice.com/kashmiri-pandits-are-cancer-for-the-valley-says-kashmiri-magazine-run-by-peacefuls/
These movements will never have the support of the minorities - the Sikhs, the Hindus and the Buddhists in J&K if such barbarity continues..... These movements also ignore the fact that there are other groups living in Kashmir too.... And they don't spare their own brethren........ And I'm appalled when so many of them say Pandits left the valley for economic purposes just to conceal the truth....... They're only fooling themselves by believing this crap!
Realistically, the best solution is to just accept the current borders.......

 

[UN talkz]

End of the day, most Kashmiris in the valleys want to become Pakistan. In AJK and GB everyone does.

There will never be an independent Kashmir overall, maximum will be independent valley. Rather than waste time on here, work on achieving right of self determination.

U still aren't able to understand anything here....
i request u to read post no. #117

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I was shocked when I saw how so many Kashmiris reacted to the death of Mohammad Ayub Pandith..... Instead of condemning the act (many did condemn it, I'm not talking about everyone), they went to such great lengths to justify it.... Such an inhuman act in the holy month of Ramzan, how can it be justified!
Just two weeks or so ago, some barbarians killed 6 policemen, disfigured their faces, and didn't let their dead bodies be taken for a funeral.... This incident too saw them trying to shift the blame from the terrorists......
http://www.risingkashmir.com/news/kashmir-divided-on-social-media-over-policemens-killing
https://twitter.com/sameeryasir/status/875979281511325697
Then that DPS Srinagar incident, oh god.....
The death of Lieutenant Ummer Fayaz....
And then you see crowds gathering after namaaz shouting "Hizbul Mujahideen, Hizbul Mujahideen!"
14 year olds are going into militancy! What has stone pelting achieved till now? How is all this helping anyone? In the end, it's we, the Kashmiris who are suffering! The focus should be on development, getting an education, improving living standards.....
http://theindianvoice.com/kashmiri-pandits-are-cancer-for-the-valley-says-kashmiri-magazine-run-by-peacefuls/
These movements will never have the support of the minorities - the Sikhs, the Hindus and the Buddhists in J&K if such barbarity continues..... These movements also ignore the fact that there are other groups living in Kashmir too.... And they don't spare their own brethren........ And I'm appalled when so many of them say Pandits left the valley for economic purposes just to conceal the truth....... They're only fooling themselves by believing this crap!
Realistically, the best solution is to just accept the current borders.......

We hate every government occupying force including the damn police. India should leave Kashmir. End of.

 

[UN talkz]

I was shocked when I saw how so many Kashmiris reacted to the death of Mohammad Ayub Pandith..... Instead of condemning the act (many did condemn it, I'm not talking about everyone), they went to such great lengths to justify it.... Such an inhuman act in the holy month of Ramzan, how can it be justified!
Just two weeks or so ago, some barbarians killed 6 policemen, disfigured their faces, and didn't let their dead bodies be taken for a funeral.... This incident too saw them trying to shift the blame from the terrorists......
http://www.risingkashmir.com/news/kashmir-divided-on-social-media-over-policemens-killing
https://twitter.com/sameeryasir/status/875979281511325697
Then that DPS Srinagar incident, oh god.....
The death of Lieutenant Ummer Fayaz....
And then you see crowds gathering after namaaz shouting "Hizbul Mujahideen, Hizbul Mujahideen!"
14 year olds are going into militancy! What has stone pelting achieved till now? How is all this helping anyone? In the end, it's we, the Kashmiris who are suffering! The focus should be on development, getting an education, improving living standards.....
http://theindianvoice.com/kashmiri-pandits-are-cancer-for-the-valley-says-kashmiri-magazine-run-by-peacefuls/
These movements will never have the support of the minorities - the Sikhs, the Hindus and the Buddhists in J&K if such barbarity continues..... These movements also ignore the fact that there are other groups living in Kashmir too.... And they don't spare their own brethren........ And I'm appalled when so many of them say Pandits left the valley for economic purposes just to conceal the truth....... They're only fooling themselves by believing this crap!
Realistically, the best solution is to just accept the current borders.......

Please dont say that we justified the killing of Muhammed Ayub Pandit..... Just see how kashmiris reacted to that on social media
...
each and everyone condemned that barbaric act...... and our sympathies are with Ayub's family.
U shld introspect why 14 and 15 year olds are joining militancy.... why burhan joined HM at a tender age of 15....
nobody believes that GUN will solve any issue....
but why are more and more people still joining militant outfits....
We are not only pained at recent events becoz they were kashmiris... we were pained becoz they were humans... and we are equally pained when such things happen to outsiders...
no human being would ever justify an act like uri gunfight... such barbaric events take place bcz we never give these ****** people a lesson which they will remember for life...
Just look at the broader perspective Sir....
why are kashmiris doing self damage to themselves.... why are they picking guns when they know it will bring nothing...

look have you ever wondered about these things...
how it feels to live in the most militarised region of the world...
how it feels when u go to school under the shadows of guns....
when u cant walk in your own land safely....
look at the artists of kashmiris..... MC kash.... Saifuddin.... Muneem....
All of them could have taken an entry into bollywood and had a secure future or even sing their own albums.... but all are singing freedom songs, raising their voice against oppression...
All hav gone to prisons....
Do you know how it feels to be a human shield being tied to a jeep.... and man it didn't happen first time 2 months ago for which major gogoi was awarded..... it has been happening since 90's.... KUPWARA village being the worst victim of this...
Do you know how much the minorities(pandits and sikhs) have suffered bcz of authorities.... we have never harmed them just ask pandits still living in kashmir who was responsible for the ouster....
we feel in a death trap when we walk on the roads surrounded by army camps....
Do u want us to stay quiet and watch all this happen.....
10000 rapes have been done by indian army in the valley in the last 25 years and these are official figures.....
do u want us to see army raping our mothers and sisters and keep quiet.... stone pelting is the least we can react to such horrific incidents.....
have indians ever protested against rape incidents that have occurred in valley.... we condemned nirbhaya rape incident and protested against it.... did u even wrote two words when 47 women were raped by indian army in a single day in kunan poshpora.... when a women and her sister in law were raped and murdered by Indian army in sopore....
1000's of fake encounters hav taken place and no action has been taken despite the govt itself declaring the encounters as fake.... instead the security personals have been awarded.....
[MENTION=141723]rexbamezai[/MENTION] please tell me what should we do and how should we react to all this....
i request u to stop watching these fake nationalist media channels.... maybe u shld watch NDTV atleast they are neutral.... [MENTION=141723]rexbamezai[/MENTION] [MENTION=141723]rexbamezai[/MENTION]
seriously what shld we do.

 

[Zahid87]

End of the day, most Kashmiris in the valleys want to become Pakistan. In AJK and GB everyone does.

There will never be an independent Kashmir overall, maximum will be independent valley. Rather than waste time on here, work on achieving right of self determination.

The way your posts are coming across is that you looking at things through a Pakistani prism, rather than a Kashmiri one. The two are not the same.

E.g. You consider the historical area of Kashmir as one entity when it suits you (i.e. if they want annexation with Pakistan), but if not, then strip it down to areas which would assimilate to Pakistan and those that would not.

I understand that you have forthright views on the subject, but a little sympathy towards differing opinions would not go amiss.



Back to the thread - the only humane and possible solution is to formalise the status quo. Anything else will just result in a further loss of lives.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

The way your posts are coming across is that you looking at things through a Pakistani prism, rather than a Kashmiri one. The two are not the same.

E.g. You consider the historical area of Kashmir as one entity when it suits you (i.e. if they want annexation with Pakistan), but if not, then strip it down to areas which would assimilate to Pakistan and those that would not.

I understand that you have forthright views on the subject, but a little sympathy towards differing opinions would not go amiss.



Back to the thread - the only humane and possible solution is to formalise the status quo. Anything else will just result in a further loss of lives.

I'm happy for any solution provided we decide it. What I'm NOT happy to do is to have someone tell me what he thinks EVERYONE in Kashmir thinks. It's counterproductive and divides us.

His attitude is precisely why Kashmir isn't getting sorted

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I'm just happy with right of self determinations. The rest is speculation

 

[PakLFC]

Sorry to be a killjoy that happens when speaking the truth. Kashmiris want complete freedom whilst retaining their rights of living in India and Pakistan as citizens enjoying all the benefits that come with it. In other words Indian and Pakistanis will need a passport or visa to visit Kashmir whilst they can roam around freely in these two countries. This is the truth and what they really want no matter how much they deny it. They can not and will not have it all there way, never. It is simply illogical! Complete independence means leaving India and Pakistan permanently, forever. This is what most not every Kashmiri wants even though they will not admit it. As a Pakistani I believe Kashmir is holding us back so I want a complete break from these people.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] wat do u think about [MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION] 's views

A little request.


Point out his Post Numbers I need to read than I will give you my reaction.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I have nothing to disagree abiut this post.... completely agree with u...
HM wanted burhan more than burhan wanted them.... he was a youth icon and people still consider him as their idol....
Burhan reason for choosing life of a rebel is something that brings tears in your eyes...

Look when we protest, only then people around the world realise that there is something wrong in Kashmir otherwise nobody talks about miseries faced by us..
And stone pelting takes place in a few places, few selected places, people are killed mostly because they protest.... peaceful protests and holding banners...
Nobody comes into the streets pelting stones at security personals.

Those who do this stuff even harm those who don't do this.

When there is unrest the Army becomes more hostile and attrocities increase. So what is outcome ? More Blood of Muslims down the drain ? Pains Me.


When we had a small & weak Army we created Furqan Force https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furqan_Force


Why ? So that We get IOK liberated from India. Our understanding was that majority IOK kashmiris want to be part of Pakistan. This is why we put our bodies on the line.


I believe there are people in GB, china, IOK & AJK who number in thousands and they want Independent Country Kashmir. You are one of those people. I believe and know few AJK Kashmiris who want Kashmir as a seperate Country but majority I know want AJK to remain part of Pakistan since it's very peaceful Alhamdoulillah. God knows how and why Army has been able to maintain Law & Order in AJK. Probably one terrorist attack in last 25 years which is remarkable if you consider terrorist activities of terrorists in rest of Pakistan in last 16 years. This means that if our Army has intent & want to maintain L & O than they can and they have the ability, capacity & workforce to dismantle T outfits and dismantle them as their ideology factories.


Lastly, my heart wants all Kashmir to be part of Pakistan but if after all my & our blood sacrifice you want seperate country than fine I ll than believe on those who say " Kashmiri Bey Peeri " and will respect your decision as it's your right.


I have no clue as to how Plebiscite would be possible.


If yoi think more kashmiri need to give their lives to achieve this than what can I say ? Would just get Sad. You want international attention so your life your choices.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

i'm truly and totally appalled at the traditional idea of states and their incessant use of power to stop people from obtaining their basic right of freedom.

selfish states for their 'so called' greater and needless chest thumping good sacrifice minorities as they continue to glorify the acts of their brutality under the banner of patriotism.

it's the same in pakistan as well where minorities are still at times struggling to get basic human rights.

india needs to reach a state of peace within kashmir and the brutalities against the people need to end. it is not just a border dispute, it is a dispute where needless blood is being shed every single day and that's just plain wrong.

the 'atoot angg' slogan needs to be discarded, not for just india but for every single state. people should get what they want, if it's freedom, that should be that. end of.

p.s. my stance is applicable to all communities all over the world. don't quote me by saying but what about balochistan etc.

 

[Syed1]

Should have grown a pair and snatched it in 62 when we had the chance.


It now seems that Kashmir may never be a part of Pakistan unless India implodes and disintegrates into several smaller countries.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Have all three options in the vote ... agree. That is the only way to settle the issue once and for all.

Isn't it amazing to see the indoctrination of Indian posters.....

 

[UN talkz]

A little request.


Point out his Post Numbers I need to read than I will give you my reaction.

Post #121 #124 #138

Also u asked why do we sacrifice our lifes to show the world atrocities faced by us....
The answer is that we never did such things before 2008... before 2008 they came inside our houses and killed us...people ultimately lost their cool..... this rebellion started after 2008 when people stopped fearing the army men and came on the streets protesting against the tyrants...
Look a civil rebellion is very very dangerous thing as compared to armed rebellion....
people now participate in the funerals of militants which we couldn't have even thought about a decade ago.

 

[UN talkz]

Should have grown a pair and snatched it in 62 when we had the chance.


It now seems that Kashmir may never be a part of Pakistan unless India implodes and disintegrates into several smaller countries.

Just a simple question to what i feel is one of the most sensible guys here:
Do you see independent kashmir an option....
And if we become an independent nation... do u see us surviving as a nation or do u also feel we can't survive and would be vanished from the world map within 6 months.

 

[UN talkz]

Those who do this stuff even harm those who don't do this.

When there is unrest the Army becomes more hostile and attrocities increase. So what is outcome ? More Blood of Muslims down the drain ? Pains Me.


When we had a small & weak Army we created Furqan Force https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furqan_Force


Why ? So that We get IOK liberated from India. Our understanding was that majority IOK kashmiris want to be part of Pakistan. This is why we put our bodies on the line.


I believe there are people in GB, china, IOK & AJK who number in thousands and they want Independent Country Kashmir. You are one of those people. I believe and know few AJK Kashmiris who want Kashmir as a seperate Country but majority I know want AJK to remain part of Pakistan since it's very peaceful Alhamdoulillah. God knows how and why Army has been able to maintain Law & Order in AJK. Probably one terrorist attack in last 25 years which is remarkable if you consider terrorist activities of terrorists in rest of Pakistan in last 16 years. This means that if our Army has intent & want to maintain L & O than they can and they have the ability, capacity & workforce to dismantle T outfits and dismantle them as their ideology factories.


Lastly, my heart wants all Kashmir to be part of Pakistan but if after all my & our blood sacrifice you want seperate country than fine I ll than believe on those who say " Kashmiri Bey Peeri " and will respect your decision as it's your right.


I have no clue as to how Plebiscite would be possible.


If yoi think more kashmiri need to give their lives to achieve this than what can I say ? Would just get Sad. You want international attention so your life your choices.

Kashmiri bey peeri???? casually asking wat does that mean...

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Post #121 #124 #138

Also u asked why do we sacrifice our lifes to show the world atrocities faced by us....
The answer is that we never did such things before 2008... before 2008 they came inside our houses and killed us...people ultimately lost their cool..... this rebellion started after 2008 when people stopped fearing the army men and came on the streets protesting against the tyrants...
Look a civil rebellion is very very dangerous thing as compared to armed rebellion....
people now participate in the funerals of militants which we couldn't have even thought about a decade ago.

These Army Men are not Soft, Innocent. Which Army will allow people to come out and protest against Army & government ? None. They will try their best to safeguard Interests of India & Indian Constitution.

Our Army won't allow this in Ajk, Balochistan, KPK, Sindh, Punjab & GB.


Just as a keyboard warrior and to drive anti India anti Hindu agenda on Pakpassion I won't appreciate Kashmiri fighters or stone pelters because the gain of all this is zero and only Muslims suffer and precious human lives are lost. If a wanted militant or freedom fighter is missing than this or any army aren't angels. They will pick up, arrest or kidnap the person's father, mother, sister's, brothers or children or all of them ? As a Muslim I do not want my Kashmiri Mother or Sister's honour to be gone because of Freedom fighter or stone pelter because I do not want my Sister or Mother to touched by any Non Mahrum Man or even LEA official.


So I only support those Kashmiri's who fight war on Social media that too if they are safe. Bevause whether Kashmir gets liberated or becomes part of Pakistan or India or China would be significant but I don't want honour, dignity & prestige of Kashmiris getting jeopardized during the process.


If you or Kashmiri's want to stick with this policy than Yeah your life your rules your choices but I don't support it.


It is established that now that any remedy is dialogue and Establishments of both Countries arent's ready for it either. India on the other hand claims that Pak supports, trains and shelters freedom fighters and terrorist outfits in IOK so unless that support is stopped there would be no dialogue on Kashmir.


The Best Chance was Pakistan getting hold of IOK under General Akhtar Malik in 1960's but we failed to capitalise. Intensional or Unintentional are debatable. Than under Musharaff the general perception was that PAK stopped all forms of support for IOK Kashmiri's and India loved it, dialogue on Kashmir became a reality and than there is No Clue as to what happened at last minute from either side. All Claims. Probably again Deep states of both Countries did not like it.


Plebiscite is only option left and that too looks a distant dream. Even if Plebiscite's favours India or Pakistan even than you and those few who want seperate Country will again fight with Indian or Pakistani authorities seeking liberation. Now who will be willing to make a new country off the size of a small village with few thousand Kashmiri's ? ?


You won't agree with Wasim Waqar and you will say No ww are not few thousand We are the Majority.


Keep Safe.

 

[Enigma_]

Just a simple question to what i feel is one of the most sensible guys here:
Do you see independent kashmir an option....
And if we become an independent nation... do u see us surviving as a nation or do u also feel we can't survive and would be vanished from the world map within 6 months.

Kashmir will never become an independent nation. That's the cold harsh truth. Even if by some miracle it did happen, you would be invaded by India/Pakistan pretty quickly. This is a pretty pointless exercise regardless because most Kashmiris identify themselves as Pakistanis and want to join ASAP. That's what the Freedom struggle started as and will continue until they get their right to self-determination.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

These Army Men are not Soft, Innocent. Which Army will allow people to come out and protest against Army & government ? None. They will try their best to safeguard Interests of India & Indian Constitution.

Our Army won't allow this in Ajk, Balochistan, KPK, Sindh, Punjab & GB.


Just as a keyboard warrior and to drive anti India anti Hindu agenda on Pakpassion I won't appreciate Kashmiri fighters or stone pelters because the gain of all this is zero and only Muslims suffer and precious human lives are lost. If a wanted militant or freedom fighter is missing than this or any army aren't angels. They will pick up, arrest or kidnap the person's father, mother, sister's, brothers or children or all of them ? As a Muslim I do not want my Kashmiri Mother or Sister's honour to be gone because of Freedom fighter or stone pelter because I do not want my Sister or Mother to touched by any Non Mahrum Man or even LEA official.


So I only support those Kashmiri's who fight war on Social media that too if they are safe. Bevause whether Kashmir gets liberated or becomes part of Pakistan or India or China would be significant but I don't want honour, dignity & prestige of Kashmiris getting jeopardized during the process.


If you or Kashmiri's want to stick with this policy than Yeah your life your rules your choices but I don't support it.


It is established that now that any remedy is dialogue and Establishments of both Countries arent's ready for it either. India on the other hand claims that Pak supports, trains and shelters freedom fighters and terrorist outfits in IOK so unless that support is stopped there would be no dialogue on Kashmir.


The Best Chance was Pakistan getting hold of IOK under General Akhtar Malik in 1960's but we failed to capitalise. Intensional or Unintentional are debatable. Than under Musharaff the general perception was that PAK stopped all forms of support for IOK Kashmiri's and India loved it, dialogue on Kashmir became a reality and than there is No Clue as to what happened at last minute from either side. All Claims. Probably again Deep states of both Countries did not like it.


Plebiscite is only option left and that too looks a distant dream. Even if Plebiscite's favours India or Pakistan even than you and those few who want seperate Country will again fight with Indian or Pakistani authorities seeking liberation. Now who will be willing to make a new country off the size of a small village with few thousand Kashmiri's ? ?


You won't agree with Wasim Waqar and you will say No ww are not few thousand We are the Majority.


Keep Safe.

If you speak to Kashmiris on the ground, they will tell you the reality is different to social media.

There is a huge pro Pakistan sentiment with the valley where people want to join Pakistan. Kashmiri nationalists know this; their flags are barely seen in the valley. Mostly Pakistan ones.

Azaadi used to be a "poor man" thing according to Indian puppets. People like Mehboob makhdoomi thankfully have put an end to nonsensical comments like that!

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

There's pretty much zero appetite for independence in AJK, GB and south Jammu. Even in valley there's a large contingent wanting Pakistani Union.

 

[MenInG]

There's pretty much zero appetite for independence in AJK, GB and south Jammu. Even in valley there's a large contingent wanting Pakistani Union.

There is no way of knowing that. All evidence is anecdotal.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

If you speak to Kashmiris on the ground, they will tell you the reality is different to social media.

There is a huge pro Pakistan sentiment with the valley where people want to join Pakistan. Kashmiri nationalists know this; their flags are barely seen in the valley. Mostly Pakistan ones.

Azaadi used to be a "poor man" thing according to Indian puppets. People like Mehboob makhdoomi thankfully have put an end to nonsensical comments like that!

There's pretty much zero appetite for independence in AJK, GB and south Jammu. Even in valley there's a large contingent wanting Pakistani Union.

Yeah but UN talks thinks otherwise. I side with you but that's my opinion/assesment based on meeting Kashmiri"s, studying with them + media. I myself haven't been to IOK so I do not know Ground reality.

[MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION] [MENTION=139012]b.lesner[/MENTION] what do you want in short ? And what according to you majority IOK Kashmiri's want ?

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

There is no way of knowing that. All evidence is anecdotal.

Have travelled and gathered opinions. Know a lot of people from different parts of pre 1947 J and K

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Yeah but UN talks thinks otherwise. I side with you but that's my opinion/assesment based on meeting Kashmiri"s, studying with them + media. I myself haven't been to IOK so I do not know Ground reality.

[MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION] [MENTION=139012]b.lesner[/MENTION] what do you want in short ? And what according to you majority IOK Kashmiri's want ?

I speak to and know a lot of people in the valley. They say that there is a large anti Pakistani narrative being pushed by India in the valley and by media across the world (according to Kashmiris I know). This has mostly been unsuccessful.

Watch the protests over the last year and see the Pakistani flags.

The many killed in Kashmir have been buried in Pakistan flags.

Obviously we will never know till there's a referendum, but the hearts and minds of Kashmiris in the valley are with Pakistan.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Yeah but UN talks thinks otherwise. I side with you but that's my opinion/assesment based on meeting Kashmiri"s, studying with them + media. I myself haven't been to IOK so I do not know Ground reality.

[MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION] [MENTION=139012]b.lesner[/MENTION] what do you want in short ? And what according to you majority IOK Kashmiri's want ?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Another thing about Kashmiris is we all don't want India.

 

[Syed1]

Just a simple question to what i feel is one of the most sensible guys here:
Do you see independent kashmir an option....
And if we become an independent nation... do u see us surviving as a nation or do u also feel we can't survive and would be vanished from the world map within 6 months.

Kashmir as an independent nation will be very difficult to manage because the Kashmiris who have lived in Azad Kashmir will still have loyalties towards Pakistan, I would say some might be even more loyal towards Pakistan than independent Kashmir. Then India will also try to influence Kashmiri policies and non-compliance may result in economic blockade.

As of now Kashmir does not have any major industries that could drive economic growth. Tourism will perhaps be the biggest earner. One factor in Kashmir's favour would be that all the heads of the major subcontinental rivers would lie within it's territory and if massive storage dams are built at a rapid rate then this will give Kashmir leverage over both Pakistan and India. One more factor that would drive the national and economic policies of Kashmir would be that it would be surrounded by nuclear armed countries on all three sides with massive armies and therefore there would be a need to quickly enlist and develop an armed force which may take away from social spending.

That being said an independent Kashmir will always have a friend in Pakistan.

 

[rexbamezai]

Please dont say that we justified the killing of Muhammed Ayub Pandit..... Just see how kashmiris reacted to that on social media
...
each and everyone condemned that barbaric act...... and our sympathies are with Ayub's family.
U shld introspect why 14 and 15 year olds are joining militancy.... why burhan joined HM at a tender age of 15....
nobody believes that GUN will solve any issue....
but why are more and more people still joining militant outfits....
We are not only pained at recent events becoz they were kashmiris... we were pained becoz they were humans... and we are equally pained when such things happen to outsiders...
no human being would ever justify an act like uri gunfight... such barbaric events take place bcz we never give these ****** people a lesson which they will remember for life...
Just look at the broader perspective Sir....
why are kashmiris doing self damage to themselves.... why are they picking guns when they know it will bring nothing...


Do you know how much the minorities(pandits and sikhs) have suffered bcz of authorities.... we have never harmed them just ask pandits still living in kashmir who was responsible for the ouster....
we feel in a death trap when we walk on the roads surrounded by army camps....

To be very honest, I'm not a very knowledgeable person when it comes to all this, but there are a few things that I do know.. About justifyig that Muhammed Ayub Pandit killing, I didn't say everyone did that - I know so many people condemned it, but a lot (and I mean a LOT) of people also justified it and their views were truly horrific, I must tell you I was shocked to read all that.... (they called themselves "Pro-Kashmiri" - is this the Kashmiriyat we talk about?) That is really alarming.....

Do you know why I was brought up in Pune and not Srinagar? Why I can't even speak Koshur? Remember 1989..? You can deny all you want, but you can't fool me, my own family was affected, my parents still remember the hardships they faced... Why would we abandon our property, land, jobs for no reason?

Zaafal Chrungoo, a fellow Kashmiri on quora:
https://www.quora.com/Kashmir-Whats-the-story-of-the-Kashmiri-Pandits/answer/Zaafal-Chrungoo

I haven't replied on those things I'm not much aware of....
But I feel militancy is never the right way to deal with anything. I also wonder why is it just one group that's into militancy, one group that protests against everything.... Why not the others? How can the region be demilitarized when there's militancy/terrorism all around? I know everyone isn't guilty of disrespecting minorities and those people who hold a view different from the one they expect, but the thing is there are so many (a really big number) who do (and their views are truly horrific, it's difficult to imagine how they can even think of fellow human beings in such a manner just because they do not conform to their beliefs)..

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/lehladakh-people-demand-union-territory-status-submit-memorandum-to-pm-narendra-modi/

I can tell from your posts that you are a good person and you ain't anything like those people and I know you have lots of reasons for your choices, but the number of those people I told you about really worries me.... The youth should be focusing on education and development of the region, but so many of them seem so misguided and there's just so much hate in them!

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Well there are three commonly accepted options.

a) Independence
b) No Change
c) Join Pakistan

The issue with Kashmir is, like most disputed territories around the world, not exactly unique. Displacement of the original indigenous population, influx of foreign settlers who identify with the foreign land in a strategic attempt to naturalise the area, conflict while not religious does tend to fall along religious lines with one side being one religion and another side a different religion, terrorism and violence being the norm and to top it off an oppressive ruling force. So its a huge mess basically.

With regards to option a) there is absolutely no way this will happen. In an ideal world it would be the best solution in my opinion. but India and Pakistan are far too immature politically and hold too much hatred for it to occur. If by some miracle both the Indian and Pakistani PM's agreed to pull out and leave Kashmir alone both of their electorates (which are extremely nationalistic to me from my experience) would eat them alive and they'd have committed political suicide. Being surrounded by no less than three nuclear powers would actually benefit an independent Kashmir because in reality it would not require much of an armed force for several reasons

1- No army it could muster would win any war anyway
2- If it remained neutral with all 3 neighbours and establish slowly friendly ties with each under an independent foreign policy then it would realistically have complete protection, for any signs of aggression from one of the neighbours would almost certainly result in the other two taking strong action against it. So in a way by being in the middle of three huge militaries its relatively safe I would think, because no way would China/Pakistan be willing to launch an offensive against India, causing the whole region to go in uproar, and India surely wouldnt want to take on two of its biggest neighbours simultaneously over the region.

Option b) is to me the most realistic scenario because I cannot see any change occurring. Indias behaviour in the region up until now is so incredibly boneheaded it beggars belief. If India simply invested in the region, and much more importantly opened actual dialogue with the locals it would solve a lot of problems. Instead of brutally oppressing innocent people, shooting rubber bullets at them and killing some, which just reinforces the separatist sentiment and the violence and leads to a never ending cycle of civilian unrest, terrorism followed by military crackdown and civilian deaths, they should be open with the parties and people who wish to separate, and encourage them to partake in the democratic process ( I'll be honest I'm not aware if this has already happened, please correct me if it has). By doing this, you remove the need for violence and the need for brutal military actions, which can then allow the Indian government to give these people a decent standard of living and show them the benefits of being in India, over time the region will be satisfied with its position. Most people make decisions based off of one thing and one thing only, money. If over time the area got investment, infrastructure and became prosperous and peaceful, the need to break away will die because people wont want to be financially worse off or to cause unrest. However if the military continues shooting people and beating them off the streets, this will never happen and the population will always look to separate, as in another state they wont face such treatment. India controls the area, and while the foreign funding for terrorism doesnt help matters, if they change behaviour, encourage democracy and improve the general standard of living no amount of weapons will convince anyone bar the nutjobs to take arms and fight. Continuing the current path achieves nothing.

c) By far the least likely option mainly due to the fact that I dont see how Pakistan would be able to handle the added stress the population would bring, not to mention the civil unrest that would naturally follow. Also it would likely require a military conquest considering India arent budging anytime soon, and that alone is difficult to see.

Alternatively both sides could pull out and form a joint agreement whereby both agree to rule the state together until such a time that a referendum is possible and a final decision can be made. Fat chance of this though.

All in all in an ideal world the people themselves, who have found themselves as nothing more than pawns in a childish game of who owns what, would be given a free and fair referendum to decide what they want to do, remain, break away or join Pakistan. However since that is likely never going to happen and the region is currently under Indian control, the onus is on India to actually solve the issue since they are the only ones who can. It wont be easy and it requires political foresight and will, but if they showed the people what benefits financially and living conditions wise they could get by remaining, and encouraged those who still want to break away to form a political party, take seats in government and try achieve it through this method instead of arms, it'll be better for all. Worked in Northern Ireland and if the people genuinely want it to, it can work in Kashmir too.

Sadly none of this will happen though, and tens of thousands of people will continue to die over a piece of land neither really gives a damn about, they just dont want the other side to have it.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Well there are three commonly accepted options.

a) Independence
b) No Change
c) Join Pakistan

The issue with Kashmir is, like most disputed territories around the world, not exactly unique. Displacement of the original indigenous population, influx of foreign settlers who identify with the foreign land in a strategic attempt to naturalise the area, conflict while not religious does tend to fall along religious lines with one side being one religion and another side a different religion, terrorism and violence being the norm and to top it off an oppressive ruling force. So its a huge mess basically.

With regards to option a) there is absolutely no way this will happen. In an ideal world it would be the best solution in my opinion. but India and Pakistan are far too immature politically and hold too much hatred for it to occur. If by some miracle both the Indian and Pakistani PM's agreed to pull out and leave Kashmir alone both of their electorates (which are extremely nationalistic to me from my experience) would eat them alive and they'd have committed political suicide. Being surrounded by no less than three nuclear powers would actually benefit an independent Kashmir because in reality it would not require much of an armed force for several reasons

1- No army it could muster would win any war anyway
2- If it remained neutral with all 3 neighbours and establish slowly friendly ties with each under an independent foreign policy then it would realistically have complete protection, for any signs of aggression from one of the neighbours would almost certainly result in the other two taking strong action against it. So in a way by being in the middle of three huge militaries its relatively safe I would think, because no way would China/Pakistan be willing to launch an offensive against India, causing the whole region to go in uproar, and India surely wouldnt want to take on two of its biggest neighbours simultaneously over the region.

Option b) is to me the most realistic scenario because I cannot see any change occurring. Indias behaviour in the region up until now is so incredibly boneheaded it beggars belief. If India simply invested in the region, and much more importantly opened actual dialogue with the locals it would solve a lot of problems. Instead of brutally oppressing innocent people, shooting rubber bullets at them and killing some, which just reinforces the separatist sentiment and the violence and leads to a never ending cycle of civilian unrest, terrorism followed by military crackdown and civilian deaths, they should be open with the parties and people who wish to separate, and encourage them to partake in the democratic process ( I'll be honest I'm not aware if this has already happened, please correct me if it has). By doing this, you remove the need for violence and the need for brutal military actions, which can then allow the Indian government to give these people a decent standard of living and show them the benefits of being in India, over time the region will be satisfied with its position. Most people make decisions based off of one thing and one thing only, money. If over time the area got investment, infrastructure and became prosperous and peaceful, the need to break away will die because people wont want to be financially worse off or to cause unrest. However if the military continues shooting people and beating them off the streets, this will never happen and the population will always look to separate, as in another state they wont face such treatment. India controls the area, and while the foreign funding for terrorism doesnt help matters, if they change behaviour, encourage democracy and improve the general standard of living no amount of weapons will convince anyone bar the nutjobs to take arms and fight. Continuing the current path achieves nothing.

c) By far the least likely option mainly due to the fact that I dont see how Pakistan would be able to handle the added stress the population would bring, not to mention the civil unrest that would naturally follow. Also it would likely require a military conquest considering India arent budging anytime soon, and that alone is difficult to see.

Alternatively both sides could pull out and form a joint agreement whereby both agree to rule the state together until such a time that a referendum is possible and a final decision can be made. Fat chance of this though.

All in all in an ideal world the people themselves, who have found themselves as nothing more than pawns in a childish game of who owns what, would be given a free and fair referendum to decide what they want to do, remain, break away or join Pakistan. However since that is likely never going to happen and the region is currently under Indian control, the onus is on India to actually solve the issue since they are the only ones who can. It wont be easy and it requires political foresight and will, but if they showed the people what benefits financially and living conditions wise they could get by remaining, and encouraged those who still want to break away to form a political party, take seats in government and try achieve it through this method instead of arms, it'll be better for all. Worked in Northern Ireland and if the people genuinely want it to, it can work in Kashmir too.

Sadly none of this will happen though, and tens of thousands of people will continue to die over a piece of land neither really gives a damn about, they just dont want the other side to have it.

Donal, Kashmir consists of many different types of people. In the biggest area of contention which is the Indian occupied valley, most people would likely want to join Pakistan, but nearly all don't want India. Some in the valley want independence.

Other areas like Gilgit Baltistan and Azad Kashmir are strongly pro pak.

South Jammu is strongly pro India.

Muslims in Jammu and Ladakh are pro Pakistan or pro independence.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Are the majority of those in J&K really pro Pak? I agree that nearly all of them are anti India however with the greatest of respect it's not as if Pakistan is an amazing attraction for them at the moment - since 9/11 it hasn't been the most stable of places on earth.

The most extensive independent opinion poll done in recent years (by Kings College London) suggests that their isn't a huge pro Pak appetite among those in J&K.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/publications/papers/view/109338

Having said all of that, nothing is going to change because the status quo is what India desires and the world really doesn't care about this issue. Well the major powers, the US, the EU, Russia etc certainly don't. Even the Gulf countries don't go beyond making token statements about the issue. China is really the only nation which tries to put some political pressure on India however in light of the growing trade between India and China even they have backed off in recent years.

The separatists don't have the military power to force India's hand and they don't have sufficient political support either - so what is left? Economics perhaps? There was a time in the late 80s/early 90s where the Indian state was almost bankrupt and at the same time the Kashmir insurgency was in full flow. Things were perilous for India however their economic fortunes soon changed and then 9/11 happened. And the rest is history.