-
Contact the PP Team
What constitutes blasphemy? The most puzzling question
- Thread starter Azmi
- Start date
gazza619
Test Debutant
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2012
- Runs
- 13,578
I think everyone knows what is blasphemy. The question which people have is why is there blasphemy. This point comes from the freedom of speech lovers.
Blasphemy is no different to hate speech. It is no different to being anti semi. It is no different to being racist. Do you know that it is still illegal to call for abolition of monarchy in the UK?
There is absolutely nothing wrong in the blasphemy law. However if the person committing the offense is a first time offender and apologises, then they should be forgiven. For Islam believes in forgiveness.
Blasphemy is no different to hate speech. It is no different to being anti semi. It is no different to being racist. Do you know that it is still illegal to call for abolition of monarchy in the UK?
There is absolutely nothing wrong in the blasphemy law. However if the person committing the offense is a first time offender and apologises, then they should be forgiven. For Islam believes in forgiveness.
No, my question is absolutely about the Dimensions/Limits of the Blasphemy.
Nobody knows what constitutes blasphemy exactly.
This question was also raised by a parliamentarian when this bill was drafted, but he was silenced by the right wingers.
Here is the video.
Please watch it, in order to understand the basic flaw in the blasphemy law.
Link to Video: https://vimeo.com/187295491
Devilsadvokat
Tape Ball Star
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2018
- Runs
- 698
So right, you are from Pakistan. Tkay, good to know.
gazza619
Test Debutant
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2012
- Runs
- 13,578
But what does me being from Pakistan got to do with this?
Devilsadvokat
Tape Ball Star
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2018
- Runs
- 698
Well it will make my discussion with you different.. If I was speaking to a molvi it would be different to talking to a junkie. Even if it regarding the same topic. Not saying you are either a molvi or junkie but you are a Pakistani in Pakistan, which is different to a British Pakistani.
It does not mean thst I think differently about your argument. Just that my response would be different. Different audience.
Last edited:
Present Blasphemy Law of Pakistan absolutely disallow any "Apology".
You can read the details about this "Apology" discussion here in this article (link).
But my question is not even this apology. I am fully confused what constitutes Blasphemy and who set it's boundaries?
Even if we accept Sunnah, then only those people were killed who did extreme and regular/repetitive insults. There is no example of any simple insult was punished. And exactly this is the opinion of Imam Abu Hanifa, who denied any punishment for first time insult, but he reserved any punishment only for repetitive insults.
Therefore, question is, who told the Creators of this current Blasphemy Laws, what constitute blasphemy?
Angrez Pakistani
First Class Captain
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2017
- Runs
- 4,218
What constitutes as blasphemy is very fluid. For example, some ppl might think that believing in the theory of evolution is blasphemy. Others might think otherwise. Think you can connect the dots here. The point is that blasphemy itself is a relative concept. But punishing ppl with life because of blasphemy is simply stupid.
Devilsadvokat
Tape Ball Star
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2018
- Runs
- 698
There was a thread about what you love at hate about Pakistan. You know what I hate above every other poota kam, is mob justice.
That is the sign of civilisation, when crowds gather in a murderers frenzy. The one that sticks in my mind is two men getting beaten to death by a huge mob, I can't remember what they had done wrong but it didn't deserve that. That is animalistic and it doesn't just happen in Pakistan, but wherever that happens, it is a sad indictment on that society.
I will digress no longer Azmi, as you were...
That is the sign of civilisation, when crowds gather in a murderers frenzy. The one that sticks in my mind is two men getting beaten to death by a huge mob, I can't remember what they had done wrong but it didn't deserve that. That is animalistic and it doesn't just happen in Pakistan, but wherever that happens, it is a sad indictment on that society.
I will digress no longer Azmi, as you were...
Last edited:
gazza619
Test Debutant
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2012
- Runs
- 13,578
Struggling to understand your argument. If anything you are degrading the views of a Pakistani from Pakistan. Not nice at all.
I am a British Pakistani by the way.
gazza619
Test Debutant
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2012
- Runs
- 13,578
The people on the street should have no right to give anyone physical arm. The court of law should decide.
Devilsadvokat
Tape Ball Star
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2018
- Runs
- 698
If I talk to a British cousin here it would be different to speaking to an Uncle who has never left Pakistan. Even say if you were talking about something as international as cricket. Not saying one is lower or higher just different. I know junkies who at heart are better people than molvis.
gazza619
Test Debutant
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2012
- Runs
- 13,578
Kindly do not derail the discussion and take the thread to the point where you are banned and this thread is closed.
Saying: Wishing bad thing was not Blasphemy according to the Prophet:
Sahih Bukahri (link):
Hadith No: 6929
حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو نُعَيْمٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عُيَيْنَةَ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، عَنْ عُرْوَةَ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ قَالَتِ اسْتَأْذَنَ رَهْطٌ مِنَ الْيَهُودِ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالُوا السَّامُ عَلَيْكَ. فَقُلْتُ بَلْ عَلَيْكُمُ السَّامُ وَاللَّعْنَةُ. فَقَالَ " يَا عَائِشَةُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ رَفِيقٌ يُحِبُّ الرِّفْقَ فِي الأَمْرِ كُلِّهِ ". قُلْتُ أَوَلَمْ تَسْمَعْ مَا قَالُوا قَالَ " قُلْتُ وَعَلَيْكُمْ "
Narrated By 'Aisha : A group of Jews asked permission to visit the Prophet (and when they were admitted) they said, "As-Samu 'Alaika (Death be upon you)." I said (to them), "But death and the curse of Allah be upon you!" The Prophet said, "O 'Aisha! Allah is kind and lenient and likes that one should be kind and lenient in all matters." I said, "Haven't you heard what they said?" He said, "I said (to them), 'Wa 'Alaikum (and upon you).
Thus, prophet told the "Sunnah of Allah" that HE is kind and likes Kindness in all matters, including wishing ill to the prophet".
This "Sunnah of Allah" has not been abrogated even after the death of the prophet.
Therefore, question is how come the creators of the present blasphemy law have come to this conclusion that even saying a small thing against religion becomes immediately Blasphemy, and should be killed by death?
Sahih Bukahri (link):
Hadith No: 6929
حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو نُعَيْمٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عُيَيْنَةَ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، عَنْ عُرْوَةَ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ قَالَتِ اسْتَأْذَنَ رَهْطٌ مِنَ الْيَهُودِ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالُوا السَّامُ عَلَيْكَ. فَقُلْتُ بَلْ عَلَيْكُمُ السَّامُ وَاللَّعْنَةُ. فَقَالَ " يَا عَائِشَةُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ رَفِيقٌ يُحِبُّ الرِّفْقَ فِي الأَمْرِ كُلِّهِ ". قُلْتُ أَوَلَمْ تَسْمَعْ مَا قَالُوا قَالَ " قُلْتُ وَعَلَيْكُمْ "
Narrated By 'Aisha : A group of Jews asked permission to visit the Prophet (and when they were admitted) they said, "As-Samu 'Alaika (Death be upon you)." I said (to them), "But death and the curse of Allah be upon you!" The Prophet said, "O 'Aisha! Allah is kind and lenient and likes that one should be kind and lenient in all matters." I said, "Haven't you heard what they said?" He said, "I said (to them), 'Wa 'Alaikum (and upon you).
Thus, prophet told the "Sunnah of Allah" that HE is kind and likes Kindness in all matters, including wishing ill to the prophet".
This "Sunnah of Allah" has not been abrogated even after the death of the prophet.
Therefore, question is how come the creators of the present blasphemy law have come to this conclusion that even saying a small thing against religion becomes immediately Blasphemy, and should be killed by death?
From what I have read regarding blasphemy against Nabi(SAW), is that during his lifetime it was up to Him to forgive or punish someone, but As he is no longer on this earth, we do not have the right to forgive on His behalf.
CricketDon
Tape Ball Star
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2018
- Runs
- 953
The law is what is holding back Pakistan as a country, as a economy and a civilisation. Sad to see large crowds gather in masses like blood thirsty savages, to watch a innocent fellow pakistani be beaten to death for expressing an opinion different to yours, even if they have justifiable and imperial evidence.
Pakistan is placed perfectly geographically and has gulfs or resources and material to produce goods and become a strong economy.
However that will never happen. Ever. Period. You can come back in 5 years to this comment and see things are no different.
It’s saddens me to say this as I’m sat In my dorm room at university staring at the Pakistan flag hung on my wall proudly.
Pakistan is placed perfectly geographically and has gulfs or resources and material to produce goods and become a strong economy.
However that will never happen. Ever. Period. You can come back in 5 years to this comment and see things are no different.
It’s saddens me to say this as I’m sat In my dorm room at university staring at the Pakistan flag hung on my wall proudly.
So why do you have the right to punish on his behalf?.
KingKhanWC
World Star
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2010
- Runs
- 50,744
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12621225
You should ask the British. Surely you have done your research in regards to how the law came into existance in Pakistan?
gazza619
Test Debutant
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2012
- Runs
- 13,578
The actual punishment is worth debating as I believe life imprisonment or death sentence is too harsh. And Islam believes in forgiveness so there is a clear case to tweak the law. And trust me, this law will be tweaked in due course.
But if you live in a muslim country and insult our beloved prophet (pbuh) then you will have to face the music (not by the people but by the state). It hurts people. It instigates hate. If somebody has different views then they should move to Denmark or to a country where they would not get punished.
Last edited:
Prophet didn't tell this reason that I am forgiving while I have the right, and don't forgive any one after my death.
But it were the supporters of this law, who themselves fabricated this excuse at their own later.
And exactly this hadith of Prophet is totally denying this fabricated excuse by the supporters of this law:
Sahih Bukahri (link):
Hadith No: 6929
حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو نُعَيْمٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عُيَيْنَةَ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، عَنْ عُرْوَةَ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ قَالَتِ اسْتَأْذَنَ رَهْطٌ مِنَ الْيَهُودِ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالُوا السَّامُ عَلَيْكَ. فَقُلْتُ بَلْ عَلَيْكُمُ السَّامُ وَاللَّعْنَةُ. فَقَالَ " يَا عَائِشَةُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ رَفِيقٌ يُحِبُّ الرِّفْقَ فِي الأَمْرِ كُلِّهِ ". قُلْتُ أَوَلَمْ تَسْمَعْ مَا قَالُوا قَالَ " قُلْتُ وَعَلَيْكُمْ "
Narrated By 'Aisha : A group of Jews asked permission to visit the Prophet (and when they were admitted) they said, "As-Samu 'Alaika (Death be upon you)." I said (to them), "But death and the curse of Allah be upon you!" The Prophet said, "O 'Aisha! Allah is kind and lenient and likes that one should be kind and lenient in all matters." I said, "Haven't you heard what they said?" He said, "I said (to them), 'Wa 'Alaikum (and upon you).
Thus, prophet told the "Sunnah of Allah" that HE is kind and likes Kindness in all matters, including wishing ill to the prophet".
And this particular "Sunnah of Allah" (i.e. loving kindness and leniency) has not been abrogated even after the death of the prophet.
Therefore, in case of Hujjat being present in direct form of instructions by the prophet, the self-fabricated excuse presented by the supporters of this law has no value and they could not reject the prophetic instructions.
CricketCartoons
Senior T20I Player
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2014
- Runs
- 17,584
The british created the law because it was demanded by the local population at that time.
Ijma of 4 schools disagrees with you.
Ijma of 4 schools will have ZERO value in front of the direct prophetic orders according to the Islamic standards.
And secondly, there is no Ijma present while Imam Abu Hanifa is clear that on first time insult there is no punishment, but only advice. One can only be punished if he makes repetitive insult.
Last edited:
You are not an authority in the religion, actually you are not even a muslim, do you think all these thousands of scholars all got it wrong and did not have these hadith available to them, do you not know that Imam Ahmed actually memorised all the hadith?.
Imam Abu hanifa only disagrees on the first instance, that is it.
Last edited:
No one is authority in the religion except for Quran and Sunnah according to Islamic Standards, and therefore all the jurists considered each other human beings, who were prone to mistakes despite any amount of knowledge, and thus they challenged each other on the bases of Quran and Sunnah.
Knowledge is not the standard of coming to any conclusion in any controversial issue, but according to Quran it is "DALEEL" (i.e. Proof), where Quran says:"Bring your Proof if you are truthful".
And here you have a DALEEL. Let us see who could bring answer to this direct prophetic instruction.
So is ijma not considered authority in Islam?
Of course jurist make mistakes, why do you think Ijma is considered as an authority in the religion, because you have hundreads of scholars coming to the same conclusion.
I do not have to bring daleel, for what is already established by concencus of the scholars, it is you who is challenging this concencus, therefore you will have to refute this concencus.
No, it is not, if it is going against any of the instruction of Quran or Sunnah.
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2004
- Runs
- 217,988
ISLAMABAD: A judicial magistrate remanded a man in judicial custody for 14 days in a blasphemy case on Saturday.
The man has been booked and arrested in a case registered against him at the Shams Colony police under Sections 295-A (deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs) and 298-A (use of derogatory remarks, etc., in respect of holy personages) of the Pakistan Penal Code.
Earlier, a resident of the area approached the SSP-Islamabad and lodged a complaint. Mohammed Sohail, the complainant, said that one of his friends — a barber by profession — had informed him about the suspect and his alleged blasphemous activities.
According to the FIR, the complainant reported the matter to the police for legal action against the suspect after consultation with his friends.
The complainant said that the act of the suspect had hurt the religious feelings of the people of the area, adding there was much resentment among the residents and law and order situation there was at risk.
Investigation Officer Sub-Inspector Mohammad Nawaz said the suspect was produced before a magistrate who sent him to prison on judicial remand. The police seized a mobile phone and a laptop from the suspect and sent to the Federal Investigation Agency for recovery of evidence if any, he added.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1475993/man-sent-to-prison-in-blasphemy-case
The man has been booked and arrested in a case registered against him at the Shams Colony police under Sections 295-A (deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs) and 298-A (use of derogatory remarks, etc., in respect of holy personages) of the Pakistan Penal Code.
Earlier, a resident of the area approached the SSP-Islamabad and lodged a complaint. Mohammed Sohail, the complainant, said that one of his friends — a barber by profession — had informed him about the suspect and his alleged blasphemous activities.
According to the FIR, the complainant reported the matter to the police for legal action against the suspect after consultation with his friends.
The complainant said that the act of the suspect had hurt the religious feelings of the people of the area, adding there was much resentment among the residents and law and order situation there was at risk.
Investigation Officer Sub-Inspector Mohammad Nawaz said the suspect was produced before a magistrate who sent him to prison on judicial remand. The police seized a mobile phone and a laptop from the suspect and sent to the Federal Investigation Agency for recovery of evidence if any, he added.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1475993/man-sent-to-prison-in-blasphemy-case
Robert
Test Star
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2007
- Runs
- 37,604
- Post of the Week
- 1
I disagree. It is illegal in U.K. to discriminate or voice hate speech against race or sexuality because these are characteristics one is born with and cannot change and it is is morally wrong to make someone a second class citizen on this or any other basis.
Blasphemy is basically just hurting someone’s feelings. I would not do it because I have respect for people, but it should not be encoded in statute law.
Problem in Pak are the Mullah gang. They force a microphone down the throat of a non-Muslim asking a stupid question like "was Muhammad(saw) a Prophet". When they give the obvious answer the poor person is called horrendous names and made out to be sub human. Most people in Pak do not understand the Qur'an from an intellectual perspective, not even the so called practising and devout Muslim's. They are so insecure in their faith that debating with them is not an option. They don't know that Islam encourages debate.
Ronaldo7
First Class Captain
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2019
- Runs
- 6,171
If someone says something blasphamous then just fine them or put them in jail for a few days, Don't kill them. Giving them a fine is more than enough.
Ronaldo7
First Class Captain
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2019
- Runs
- 6,171
Isn't punishment for blasphemy in Pak for ALL religions?
Also, the Da Vinci code was banned in Pak coz of its references to Christianity. Nothing to do with islam there.
Also, the Da Vinci code was banned in Pak coz of its references to Christianity. Nothing to do with islam there.
Ridiculous that it has gone to such lengths.
'Hurt religious feelings', doesn't Pakistan have much bigger issues to worry about?
Similar threads
