What do you know about Islam?

[TalentSpotterPk]

[MENTION=139075]Hadi Rizvi[/MENTION]



Pyaaray Bhai. These are the verses you referred me to along with the translation you posted from your website which you did not mention. For your own betterment and for good will gesture I am not posting your Comment in brackets.



Surah e tehreem verse 4-5


If you two turn in repentance to Allah, your hearts are indeed so inclined; but if you help one another against him, then verily, Allah is his Protector, and Jibril, and the righteous among the believers; and after that the angels are his helpers. Maybe his Lord, if he divorces you, will give him instead of you, wives better than you – submitting, believers, obedient, turning to Allah in repentance, worshipping Allah sincerely, Sa’ihat, previously married, and virgins.




This is the translation from Sahih International (quran.com)



If you two [wives] repent to Allah, [it is best], for your hearts have deviated. But if you cooperate against him - then indeed Allah is his protector, and Gabriel and the righteous of the believers and the angels, moreover, are [his] assistants.


Perhaps his Lord, if he divorced you [all], would substitute for him wives better than you - submitting [to Allah ], believing, devoutly obedient, repentant, worshipping, and traveling - [ones] previously married and virgins.





It gives me great Oppurtunity to Educate You. This random quoting out of context will lead no one anywhere. Previous Verses cannot be ignored.





1. O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives?.
And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


2. Allah has already ordained for you [Muslims] the dissolution of your oaths. And Allah is your protector, and He is the Knowing, the Wise.


3. And [remember] when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a statement; and when she informed [another] of it and Allah showed it to him, he made known part of it and ignored a part. And when he informed her about it, she said, "Who told you this?" He said, "I was informed by the Knowing, the Acquainted."


4. If you two [wives] repent to Allah, [it is best], for your hearts have deviated. But if you cooperate against him - then indeed Allah is his protector, and Gabriel and the righteous of the believers and the angels, moreover, are [his] assistants.


5. Perhaps his Lord, if he divorced you [all], would substitute for him wives better than you - submitting [to Allah ], believing, devoutly obedient, repentant, worshipping, and traveling - [ones] previously married and virgins.






Now do you any any ambiguity in Translations of these verses ? In case not than post the Shia Tafaseer on these verses of all the incident. Let's see where your stand.



After you are done than I will post Tafseer than we will see whether Revival Mission was started wirh divine guidamce or the time isn't favourable so mission delayed with further Hiding timeline.

 

[Abdul]

Know nothing and won't bother learning either as I don't want ending up getting brainwashed.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

[MENTION=139075]Hadi Rizvi[/MENTION]



Pyaaray Bhai. These are the verses you referred me to along with the translation you posted from your website which you did not mention. For your own betterment and for good will gesture I am not posting your Comment in brackets.



Surah e tehreem verse 4-5


If you two turn in repentance to Allah, your hearts are indeed so inclined; but if you help one another against him, then verily, Allah is his Protector, and Jibril, and the righteous among the believers; and after that the angels are his helpers. Maybe his Lord, if he divorces you, will give him instead of you, wives better than you – submitting, believers, obedient, turning to Allah in repentance, worshipping Allah sincerely, Sa’ihat, previously married, and virgins.




This is the translation from Sahih International (quran.com)



If you two [wives] repent to Allah, [it is best], for your hearts have deviated. But if you cooperate against him - then indeed Allah is his protector, and Gabriel and the righteous of the believers and the angels, moreover, are [his] assistants.


Perhaps his Lord, if he divorced you [all], would substitute for him wives better than you - submitting [to Allah ], believing, devoutly obedient, repentant, worshipping, and traveling - [ones] previously married and virgins.





It gives me great Oppurtunity to Educate You. This random quoting out of context will lead no one anywhere. Previous Verses cannot be ignored.





1. O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives?.
And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


2. Allah has already ordained for you [Muslims] the dissolution of your oaths. And Allah is your protector, and He is the Knowing, the Wise.


3. And [remember] when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a statement; and when she informed [another] of it and Allah showed it to him, he made known part of it and ignored a part. And when he informed her about it, she said, "Who told you this?" He said, "I was informed by the Knowing, the Acquainted."


4. If you two [wives] repent to Allah, [it is best], for your hearts have deviated. But if you cooperate against him - then indeed Allah is his protector, and Gabriel and the righteous of the believers and the angels, moreover, are [his] assistants.


5. Perhaps his Lord, if he divorced you [all], would substitute for him wives better than you - submitting [to Allah ], believing, devoutly obedient, repentant, worshipping, and traveling - [ones] previously married and virgins.






Now do you any any ambiguity in Translations of these verses ? In case not than post the Shia Tafaseer on these verses of all the incident. Let's see where your stand.



After you are done than I will post Tafseer than we will see whether Revival Mission was started wirh divine guidamce or the time isn't favourable so mission delayed with further Hiding timeline.

LOL

I don't even need to find a Shia Tafsir.

http://www.englishtafsir.com/quran/66/index.html

This is Allama Sayyid Maududi's tafsir who is a world-renowned Sunni scholar.

Umeed hai issay mirchain kam lagain gi

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

LOL

I don't even need to find a Shia Tafsir.

http://www.englishtafsir.com/quran/66/index.html

This is Allama Sayyid Maududi's tafsir who is a world-renowned Sunni scholar.

Umeed hai issay mirchain kam lagain gi

I need Shia Tafsir. I am not a follower of Maududi sahib. Refer to his tafsir to Maududi followers not me.


Post Shia Tafseer of Surah e Tehreem verse 1 to verse 5.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

I need Shia Tafsir. I am not a follower of Maududi sahib. Refer to his tafsir to Maududi followers not me.


Post Shia Tafseer of Surah e Tehreem verse 1 to verse 5.

Bhai ab to Sunni tafsir bhi dikha di. Wo bhi Maududi jaisi barri shakhsiat ki.

Abhi tak denial mode??

Chalo koi ni.

Shia tafsir yeh hai

https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-18/surah-al-tahrim-chapter-66

 

[anikrc1]

does islam say that every non-believer will burn in eternal hell-fire? in that case if you do have friends who follow other religion or are atheists how do you fell about knowing that a person you value will face such torment?

 

[Madplayer]

does islam say that every non-believer will burn in eternal hell-fire? in that case if you do have friends who follow other religion or are atheists how do you fell about knowing that a person you value will face such torment?

I would feel bad

On a serious note, all religions including Islam, christianity, judaism and Hinduism condemn non-believers to either hell or a painful death. So i feel it absurd when people pinpoint Islam on it. I guess its the trend.

But iirc Islam has a provision that if the message never reaches the nonbeliever or if it reaches in a distorted form, he could be spared.

 

[anikrc1]

I would feel bad

On a serious note, all religions including Islam, christianity, judaism and Hinduism condemn non-believers to either hell or a painful death. So i feel it absurd when people pinpoint Islam on it. I guess its the trend.

But iirc Islam has a provision that if the message never reaches the nonbeliever or if it reaches in a distorted form, he could be spared.

i think your comment is true only for abrahamic religions.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Bhai ab to Sunni tafsir bhi dikha di. Wo bhi Maududi jaisi barri shakhsiat ki.

Abhi tak denial mode??

Chalo koi ni.

Shia tafsir yeh hai

https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-18/surah-al-tahrim-chapter-66

Now live with it. This verse does not degrades the Level of Mother of Believers Hazrat Ayesha RA or Hazrat Hafsa RA.


This verse does not demote the honour and dignity of Mother of Believers.



So now bring other verses from Quran. And why does that famous poem of yours says Finn Naar. Why is Hell being wished or expected ? Because of Honey issue ? Or there is something else ?


Was Hazrat Ayesha RA " Ummahatul Momineen " what quran says for Ummahatul Momineen ?


Wishing praying Hell for Prophet's beloved Wife ? Is this what Prophet taught ? Is this what Quran taught ? Show the verse



Was the Wife of Hazrat Ibrahim AS from his Ahl e Bait ?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

does islam say that every non-believer will burn in eternal hell-fire? in that case if you do have friends who follow other religion or are atheists how do you fell about knowing that a person you value will face such torment?

Holy Quran Chapter 11 Verse 108 to 109. Allah Swt States:

خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا مَا دَامَتِ السَّمَاوَاتُ وَالْأَرْضُ إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ رَبُّكَ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ فَعَّالٌ لِمَا يُرِيدُ {108} وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ سُعِدُوا فَفِي الْجَنَّةِ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا مَا دَامَتِ السَّمَاوَاتُ وَالْأَرْضُ إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ رَبُّكَ ۖ عَطَاءً غَيْرَ مَجْذُوذٍ {109}

Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will. Surely, thy Lord does bring about what He pleases. But as for those who will prove fortunate, they shall be in Heaven; abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will — a gift that shall not be cut off. (Chapter 11 Verse 108-109)


The present verses and that which precedes it throw light on an important question in which Islam differs from other religions, viz. the question of salvation.

According to the Hindu religion, both Heaven and Hell (i.e reward and punishment) possess a limited duration; and man, after undergoing the punishment, or reaping the reward of his deeds, is sent back to this world. Although some Hindu sects disagree among themselves regarding certain details, they are all agreed on the fundamental principle that both the punishments and rewards of the next world are temporary.

Of the Semitic Religions, Judaism denies Paradise to all non Jews while Jews are regarded as almost free from the torture of hell, for according to Judaism, no Jew will remain in Hell for more than 11 months, whereas non Jews will abide in it forever.

According to Christians, both Heaven and Hell are eternal, although some of their sects hold the belief that heaven at last will come to an end.


Islam, however fundamentally differs from all these religions. Heaven is eternal and everlasting, while Hell is temporary and of limited duration. The sayings of the Holy Prophet support this view. For instance, Ahmad bin Hanbal quotes a saying of the Holy Prophet Pbuh, as reported by Abdullah Bin Amr Bin al-As RA to the effect:


i.e “There will come on Hell a day when its shutters will strike against each other and there will be none in it. That will happen after the inmates of Hell will have lived in it for centuries.” (Musnad Ahmad).

Thus according to this tradition, the word abiding used with regards to hell only means “remaining for long centuries”.

The same view was held by Ibn Masud RA and Abu Huraira RA. According to Ibn Taimiya, Umar, Ibn Abbas Anas and many commentators are of the same opinion. With reference to the word abiding used in the Qur’an in connection with Hell some eminent religious authorities think that it does mean “abiding forever”. They however, hold that though wicked disbelievers will deserve to be kept in Hell forever, Hell itself will one day cease to exist through God’s mercy, and when there is no Hell, there will naturally be no dwllers in it. Among the supporters of this view are Ibn Taimiya and Ibn al Qayyim (Fath).


The saying of the Holy Prophet quoted above on the authority of Abdullah bin Amr is also reported by Abu Hurairah RA, which fact adds to its weight and authenticity. In another tradition, Ibn Masud says : “THere will certainly come upon Hell a time when its shutters will strike against each other,” meaning that it will be untenanted. Jabir, Abu Sa’id Khudri and Abdullah bin Umar are also reported to have said a similar statement (Fath)


Abu Sa’id Khudri quotes a long hadith of the Holy Prophet which clearly shows that Hell is not eternal. According to this tradition the Holy Prophet is reported to have said that on the day of judgement God would give permission to different high-placed persons to intercede for sinners. At last common believers also will be given permission to intercede on their behalf. At first, they will intercede for those whom they know. Then with Gods permission, they will also intercede for other sinners who have some faith left in their hearts. Then only those will be left behind in Hell who had never done anything good. Then will God say : “The angels have interceded, and the Prophets and the Faithful have interceded and now it is My Turn, the Most Merciful of the merciful ones.” Then will God take a handful from the fire and take out of it even those who never had done any good deed (Bukhari and Muslim)


This hadith hints that finally a time will come when all men will be taken out of Hell, for when even those who never did any good deed are removed from the fire, who else will remain behind? Moreover, God’s handful is not a physical thing. The word implies indefinite comprehensiveness and nothing can be considered to have been left out of it. It also appears from this saying that sinners will be punished first for their sins and, when they have been washed of their sins, they will be rewarded for their good deed which, till then, will have been kept in reserve. The verse, whoso does good an atom’s weight will see it (99:8) also points to the same conclusion.

The different traditions quoted above show that many Companions of the Holy Prophet and their immediate successors held the view that Hell is not eternal and the Qur’an also supports this view. The following are some of the Qur’anic proofs in support of it:


1) Though the words, excepting what thy Lord may will, have been used with regard to both Heaven and Hell (Verse 108 and 109), in the case of Heaven the words, a gift that shall not be cut off, have been specifically added in verse 109 in order to show that there is no limitation upon the eternity of Heaven. In the case of Hell, on the other hand, they are followed by the clause, surely the Lord does bring about what He pleases (verse 108). These words are very emphatic and imply that the inmates of Hell must necessarily be taken out of Hell one day. If they are not to be taken out of Hell at all it was unnecessary to make the declaration so emphatic by using three words of emphasis.


Again, if Hell, like Heaven, was to be eternal, then its mention should also have been followed by some such words “as a punishment that shall not be cut off”. It is true that as about Hell, so with regard to Heaven, it has been said that its inmates will abide in it as long as God wills, but in the case of the dwellers of Heaven it has been clearly added that God’s eternal will is that they should never be deprived of this favour and that their stay in heaven should know no end. But no such declaration has been made with regard to Hell. This differentiation is so clear that even Ibn Hajr, whose view is opposed to Ibn Taimiyas’s with regard to Hell being not eternal, has been compelled to admit that whereas with regards to the inmates of Heaven God has made known His will which is that they shall abide therein for ever, with respect to the dwellers of Hell He has remained silent. But even the statement that God has remained silent with regard to the inmates of Hell is not correct, for by saying, Surely thy Lord does bring about what He wills, the Qur’an declares that in the case of the inmates of Hell God will carry out His wish which is implied in the words, excepting what thy Lord may will.


2) The second evidence of the limited duration of Hell is furnished by the words except those whom thy Lord show mercy and for this has He created them (11:120). It has been admitted by eminent authorities such as Ibn Abbas, Mujahid, Dahhak, Qatada and Ikrima that the pronoun Dhalika in the above words refer to rahmah meaning that God has created men in order to show mercy to them (Kathir, Manthur, and Tahavi). Now, if it be supposed that some men will remain in the Hell forever and will never be taken out of it, then these wretched people cannot be said to have been shown any mercy.

3) Whereas elsewhere in the Qur’an one meets with such expressions about Heaven, as they will surely have a reward that will never end (41:9, 84:26, 95:7), no such expression has been used with regard to Hell, which points to a clear distinction between the duration of the rewards of Heaven and the punishment of Hell.


4) The Qur’anic expression My mercy encompasses all things (7:157) also shows that the punishment of Hell is only an intermediate condition and a transitory state and that even those whom God punishes will in the end become covered by His mercy and will be forgiven. The above expression represents God’s mercy as comprehending not only all human beings, but also all other things. The same idea is expressed in 40:8 , where it is said that God comprehends all things in His mercy and knowledge. If it be supposed that certain persons can remain out of the mercy of God by being subjected to everlasting punishment, it will have to be admitted that certain things can also escape the knowledge of God, for knowledge and mercy have been mentioned in the verse side by side. But it is absurd to suppose that anything can escape the knowledge of God; therefore it is equally absurd to believe that any thing will remain permanently deprived of God’s mercy.


5) The following verses of the Qur’an also support this view: I have created the Jinn and men only that they serve me (51:57) and Enter then among My garden (89:30,31). Now if all men in the end are to become God’s servants, for man cannot permanently be kept away from the object for which he has been created, and if all God’s servants will eventually enter Heaven and the falsity of the view that Hell is eternal becomes quite clear.


6) The sixth evidence of the limited character of Hell is to be found in the verse, Whoso does an atom’s weight of good will see it (99:8). Now a mere alleviation of punishment cannot be truly called the “seeing” of one’s good works. Hence, in order that men see their works in completed, i.e should meet with the reward of their good actions, it is necessary that they should first be punished for their evil deeds by way of reformation and should afterwards receive the reward of their good actions.


7) The verse, As for him who scales are light, Hell will be his mother (101:9,10), constitutes further strong evidence in support of the view that Hell is not eternal. In this verse Hell is compared to a mother and it is well known that the child does not remain in the mother’s womb for ever. It only remains there until the formation of its body and organs becomes complete. Similarly, those unfortunate persons who are cast into Hell will remain there until the time when the faculties which fit them for seeing the beautiful face of the Lord have become fully developed. This verse thus makes it clear that Hell is not eternal and that the word abiding in the verse under comment does not denote an unending time but only a long time, as is also clear from the verse, who will tarry therein for ages (78:24). ”


- See more at: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...l-in-Different-Religions#sthash.I7ni6Qxb.dpuf

 

[TM Riddle]

I would feel bad

On a serious note, all religions including Islam, christianity, judaism and Hinduism condemn non-believers to either hell or a painful death. So i feel it absurd when people pinpoint Islam on it. I guess its the trend.

But iirc Islam has a provision that if the message never reaches the nonbeliever or if it reaches in a distorted form, he could be spared.

Not sure about that.

 

[Bilal7]

The truth. The straight path. The way to salvation. Islam is the perfect way of life as instructed by God and demonstrated by His Messenger (PBUH). The peace, security and sense of purpose that Islam brings to one's life is unmatched by anything else in this world. The success of this life and the next is solely in following the commandments of Allah, in the way shown by the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH).

I know but little of the glorious history, sciences and intricacies of this beautiful Deen (way of life) but I have tried my utmost to learn at least as much as will allow me to live my life in a manner that will be pleasing to Allah ta'ala. InshAllah, will continue learning more and more about Islam until the day I die.

Know nothing and won't bother learning either as I don't want ending up getting brainwashed.

You are already brainwashed. I pray that you receive guidance InshAllah.

 

[Bilal7]

does islam say that every non-believer will burn in eternal hell-fire? in that case if you do have friends who follow other religion or are atheists how do you fell about knowing that a person you value will face such torment?

Of course I feel terrible about this and this is exactly why there are so many great Muslims out there who spend hours upon hours every week inviting these non-Muslims to Islam.

 

[Mughal]

Quran alone is base of deen of islam, not quran & hadis or quran & sunnah, why not?

To under that one needs to understand that from my point of view I like to explain things in a bit of detail because my point of view is not widely known already as other points of views. It is easier for people to talk to each other when they already know where they are coming from but a bit difficult when it comes to discussion between not well known points of views. This is why if I only stated some facts and did not explain them then one will not know what I am trying to say and why, this is why some detail becomes absolutely necessary or one will never know what I am trying to explain or why.

Let me make it absolutely clear that I do not reject any source of information about deen of islam at all. What I reject is the idea that all sources are equal with the quraan. That I cannot accept unless someone can clearly prove that that is the case beyond any reasonable doubt which no one has done so far in my life time. Looking at something clearly visible through smeared glasses is not going to let us see the thing clearly likewise looking at clear message of God through problematic hadis reports is not going to help us understand the quran properly. Moreover each thing has its own place value just like numbers in maths. One cannot just say a number but needs to have a context otherwise the number will not make any sense. Words likewise only make sense when they have contexts or a purposes to serve.

The reason I take the quran to be the only foundation of deen of islam is because it was God who created this world according to his plan for his purpose alone. This is why it was he who wanted to reveal his plan and purpose for mankind therefore he decided to send his messages for mankind. For this reason he devised a communication channel or chain through which he communicated his message for mankind. The revelation chain is not an exception rather like any other set up of this universe for various other purposes it is just another set up to serve a particular purpose eg one can look at ecosystem or solar system or rain cycle etc etc. The communication chain includes God and his missionaries ie people who work for him.

This explanation should make it very clear that communication channel and message of God are two different things. Purpose of communication channel is to act as medium for transmission of message of God and purpose of message of God is to guide mankind regarding matters which God thought were important for mankind to know so that mankind could fulfil his purpose for their part in his scheme of things. So everything revolves around plan and purpose of God for which he created this universe and people in it. Had God no purpose for creating this universe and people in it with ability of limited freedom of choice then he needed no plan nor did he need to create this universe. So making proper sense of his purpose and his plan is a basic necessity for understanding deen of islam because that is the reason he told mankind a way of life whereby they could fulfil his purpose according to his plan.

As for message of God once it reaches people through people it is up to people to accept it or reject it with their own understanding of it as they see fit for themselves. This message needs prior understanding of things before people could understand it. If it is given to people who lack in needed knowledge then they will not know what to do with it and the best example for that is human babies. Anything you give to a human baby he puts it in his mouth taking it as his feed. The only people who can understand the message in the quran is those who are literate themselves and have good knowledge of things the quran is talking about or those to whom the quran is recited and explained by others and they become sensible enough to make proper sense of things. The rest are as good as living dead.

This should explain why I say the quran should be understood in light of real world realities because that is what the quran is actually about ie it is a teaching for mankind as to how to live properly in this world. If I say to a baby make me a cup of tea. The baby will not know what I am talking about because baby has not yet learned words or relationship of words with things in the real world. He can repeat my words if he can talk but cannot carry out my request. This will remain the situation till baby grows enough and has sufficient life experience to come to know what my request meant for him. Only and only then he will be able to carry out my request. The quran is not any different when it comes to learning it for its proper understanding. Only those people come to understand it properly who have learned the way to understand it properly and they have learned the needed information and have the needed life experience. So all people who claim to know the quran if they are questioned about it, a huge majority of them will be dumbfounded.

The real point here is, it is God who wanted to send his message for mankind because he had to tell something to mankind and not messenger of God because messenger of God did not create people for his purpose according to his plan. The part messenger of God played in this scheme is, message bearer, ie just to pass on God's message to people after understanding it himself ie before he could do that he had to make sense of the message of God for himself according to his time and available human knowledge because he too had to act upon it and the message told him to deliver it to others and that is why he delivered it to others or taught it to others to the best of his God given abilities. We need to remember that God passed on his message to his messenger for himself and others not just for himself nor just for others.

By giving the wrong job description of messenger we are turning him into a God instead of God's messenger. The messenger was supposed to deliver message of God as it was ie as he received it from God, without adding anything to it or taking away anything from it. This is why the quran tells us he did not speak anything as quran other than the quran itself. It does not mean whatever he said or did was always revelations of God. It is because messengers of God made odd mistakes that is why their those stories are also told in the quran to ensure people do not take them for other than human beings. When a person himself makes mistakes how can he create a message like that of God's message by himself? It is because messengers of God are also human beings they too are prone to making mistakes called human errors but God draws their attention to their errors in some way and they correct them. However no messenger of God ever does anything wrong deliberately or intentionally.

The mistake people make in trying to understand this issue is that they do not separate the communication chain from the message the chain is supposed to deliver for which the communication chain is set up by God who made sure it worked for his purpose according to his plan and it does and that is why we have the quran today so many centuries after the final messenger of God has gone from this world. This is why the actual framework or structure of deen of islam has to come from the quran alone not from mixed sources particularly when those sources are prone to mistakes and errors beyond corrections. During the revelation of the quraan any mistake made by the messenger of God was corrected by God but after the stopping of the revelation when people started attributing things to him there was no revelation from God any more for correcting people. This is why whatever people attributed to God or his messenger was no longer as reliable as whatever was left behind by the messenger of God as the quran. This is why distinguishing between revelation of God and reports by people becomes inevitable.

The fact is, messengers of God have been making mistakes and that is what the quran itself tells us. For this reason God could not tell us to follow them unconditionally or blindly that is why whenever God tells us to follow his messenger it means in things which he did according to the quran to fulfil his God given mission and not absolutely in each and everything he said or did. To follow anyone absolutely is naturally impossible because one can never know each and everything about anyone even on daily basis or we ought to have moment to moment diaries of messenger of God not hadis books. Moreover look at human attention span. How many people can remain fully alert and aware or attentive during a whole 24 hour day? People get tired after a while and that is why people go to sleep or rest to recoup their energy. Even when we are fully attentive we cannot pay attention to everything that is happening all around us. If we look at one things in front of us there is another thing going on behind us. We can only focus on one thing at a time. This is why when a magician makes us look at one thing in one of his hands he does something else with his other hand to which we are not paying attention in order to trick us. So due to such natural limitations how much can we know about anyone at all including our own very selves?

So people who tell us we know each and everything about the messenger of God are not realising what they are saying or claiming about messenger of God otherwise they could never claim what they claim about messenger of God. Moreover there are things which messengers of Allah said and did as reported in hadis books which if we said and did we will become kaafir therefore it is wrong to say we must follow messenger of God absolutely and unconditionally without any limits or qualifications. So I do not see what is so difficult there to understand if people have learned the knowledge they need to, to make proper sense of the message in the quran? If they have not learned the needed knowledge to understand the message in the quran properly then they cannot understand any explanation no matter how detailed it is. It is because we human beings are born not knowing a thing and it takes us ages to grow up by learning things bit by bit on daily basis. This is the real extent of explanation that is required for a human being to start making proper sense of things.

Moreover how can one use a secondary source to interpret the main source if secondary source itself depends upon main source for its qualification or authenticity? This is why the quran alone has to be the foundation of deen of islam. However once we have derived the structure or framework of deen of islam from the quran alone in light of real world realities thereafter we can use all other sources to fill in details where need be that is consistent with the framework of deen of islam as derived from the quran alone just like bits of jig saw puzzle. I am saying real world realities because the quran is all about how people ought to live in the real world. Deen of islam is nothing other than a way of life advised by Allah for mankind to live in this world properly to fulfil his purpose of creating them according to his given plan or roadmap or program.

Furthermore mullahs have misinterpreted the quran by telling us it is a complete code of life instead of telling us we need to extract framework of deen of islam from the quran to form a complete code of life to live by. The quran does not give us a fully worked out constitution and laws for organising human society and regulating it. This is why we do not have ummah as the final messenger of God left behind after its formation on basis of the quran alone. As I see it unless people go back to the quran alone as foundation of deen of islam there is not going to be any ummah in the future either as it has not been over the so many past centuries.

 

[Mughal]

Of course I feel terrible about this and this is exactly why there are so many great Muslims out there who spend hours upon hours every week inviting these non-Muslims to Islam.

Dear bilal, the real problem is muslims have the message from God with them but they know very little about it. This is why nonmuslims world is becoming more and more anti muslim because muslims themselves are pushing nonsense in the very name of the quran and deen of islam.

Atheists and all other people are looking for an overall reasonable explanation of things we human beings are concerned about. Mullahs have been wasting any support they have been getting from the ummah by not using their time to understand and explain the message the quran was revealed for instead they have taken ummah away from the quran and deen of islam and have put them on the track of mazhab which is nothing more than nonsense invented by rulers, money lenders and mullahs to further their own agendas by fooling the illiterate, uneducated, untrained and unable to think public at large.

Till we who claim to be muslims address concerns of humanity at large on the basis of the quran and deen of islam things are going to get yet worse. It is because whole world is full of people who lack proper education and guidance.

Atheist Debates - Religion and Fear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yXC4fVid4s

Atheist Debates - Debate: Do we have good reason for believing in God? vs Reid Johnson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vl0S3qH_Tk

Atheist Debates - Supernatural Causation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwG7LJTTZFc

God is an Idiot: God's "Perfect" Plan - JT Eberhard - Skepticon 7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5UzaaxLo00

JT Eberhard: Why the Arguments For God Fail
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxGRlCawTlc

Matt Dillahunty: The Superiority of Secular Morality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2C7fyVTA4

Atheist Debates - Morality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAQFYgyEACI

Atheist Debates - Appeals to Faith
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_XBX6lH2hA

Atheist Debates - Prophecy Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiS4WP48fmY

AtheistDebates - Argument From Design, Part 1&2: Order and Purpose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTJS1UHIj6k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsw8VXAcHz4

Atheist Debates - A primer on contradictions in scripture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl2QVE_AA1A

Atheist Debates - Can Science Disprove God(s)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNIfzlzmJ8Y

Atheist Debates - What would change your mind?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjgksbJ9l4Y

Atheist Debates - Ontological Arguments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcVJobux8Xc

Atheist Debates - You're not an atheist, you're an agnostic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjY619aJ82Y

Atheist Debates - Thoughts about identifying fallacies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmci4ccZ_0o

The Reality Debate: Atheism vs. Theism (Dave Silverman vs. Frank Turek)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85J86NhK33M

regards and all the best.

 

[Mughal]

 

[idrizzy]

Thanks RWAC

To answer your question: no, apostasy is not punishable by death, nor does it carry any penalty whatsoever. People are free to believe, or reject, whatever they want. The 'La Ikraha Fi-Deen' - There shall be no compulsion in matters of religion (Q2:256) - statement makes it clear that faith, or religion, cannot be forced upon anyone.

I did write a piece about the subjects of apostasy and blasphemy, you might find it of interest:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?118839-Islam-Apostasy-And-Blasphemy&highlight=

Abu Bakr made apostasy punishable by death after Prophet Muhammad's pbuh death, as he was the leader of the Ummah. More to ensure that Muslims were still devoted on the right path and to stop Arabia from falling apart than anything else I suppose.

 

[Jadz]

Abu Bakr made apostasy punishable by death after Prophet Muhammad's pbuh death, as he was the leader of the Ummah. More to ensure that Muslims were still devoted on the right path and to stop Arabia from falling apart than anything else I suppose.

Thank you Brother, I did not know that Abu Bakr (rda) instituted the death penalty for apostasy - do you have the reference or source, please?

And may I just say (in all humility, without wishing to cause offence), that the only Law-Giver is Allah SwT, not even His Prophets (pbut) could devise, enact or implement laws that ran counter to, or conflicted with, His.

 

[Mages]

Thank you Brother, I did not know that Abu Bakr (rda) instituted the death penalty for apostasy - do you have the reference or source, please?

And may I just say (in all humility, without wishing to cause offence), that the only Law-Giver is Allah SwT, not even His Prophets (pbut) could devise, enact or implement laws that ran counter to, or conflicted with, His.

It was the prophet who instituted the death penalty for apostacy.
After the death of the prophet, the Muslims started defaulting the zakat though they kept practising Islam. To fix this problem, Abu Bkar declared non payment of zakat as apostacy and started to go after them. i.e the Apostacy War.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It was the prophet who instituted the death penalty for apostacy.
After the death of the prophet, the Muslims started defaulting the zakat though they kept practising Islam. To fix this problem, Abu Bkar declared non payment of zakat as apostacy and started to go after them. i.e the Apostacy War.

I don't know if I am reading your reply wrong, but Abu Bakr wasn't a prophet ( as far as I know).

 

[Justcrazy]

It was the prophet who instituted the death penalty for apostacy.
After the death of the prophet, the Muslims started defaulting the zakat though they kept practising Islam. To fix this problem, Abu Bkar declared non payment of zakat as apostacy and started to go after them. i.e the Apostacy War.

They were rejecting Zakat . Rejecting anything explicitly mentioned in Quran is apostacy . It was not only a revolt against religion , it was revolt against a nation.

If you go against sovereignty of a country , what is the law says ?

 

[Mages]

I don't know if I am reading your reply wrong, but Abu Bakr wasn't a prophet ( as far as I know).

Nor was I implying that. Just clarifying to Jadz that death penalty for apostacy in Islam was not devised by Abu Bakr but by the prophet(according to the Sunni hadiths).

They were rejecting Zakat . Rejecting anything explicitly mentioned in Quran is apostacy . It was not only a revolt against religion , it was revolt against a nation.

If you go against sovereignty of a country , what is the law says ?

Firstly no where in the Quran does it explicitly says punishment for apostacy is death.Also, no where in the sunnah did the prophet said to kill any Muslim who did not pay zakat. The point here is Abu Bakr devised this law (even to Umar's astonishment) as there was no such precedence by the prophet.

Today zakat is just voluntary in most Muslim majority countries & millions of Muslims do not pay them though they can afford it. Thats a lot of apostates it seems.

The bigger questions here is ;
1. Why did the Muslims capitulate upon the prophet's death?
2. What else in Islam was devised by the Companions?
3. The Quran says no compulsion in religion. The sunnah say kill those who leave the religion. How come the sunnah overrides the Quran in Sharia law (in all 4 Madhhabs)?

 

[Adijazz1706]

Nor was I implying that. Just clarifying to Jadz that death penalty for apostacy in Islam was not devised by Abu Bakr but by the prophet(according to the Sunni hadiths).



Firstly no where in the Quran does it explicitly says punishment for apostacy is death.Also, no where in the sunnah did the prophet said to kill any Muslim who did not pay zakat. The point here is Abu Bakr devised this law (even to Umar's astonishment) as there was no such precedence by the prophet.

Today zakat is just voluntary in most Muslim majority countries & millions of Muslims do not pay them though they can afford it. Thats a lot of apostates it seems.

The bigger questions here is ;
1. Why did the Muslims capitulate upon the prophet's death?
2. What else in Islam was devised by the Companions?
3. The Quran says no compulsion in religion. The sunnah say kill those who leave the religion. How come the sunnah overrides the Quran in Sharia law (in all 4 Madhhabs)?

You haven't mentioned where the Prophet declared apostasy to be punishable by death, could you point me to the source of said claim?


PS: That thread opening spree didn't go as planned I guess

 

[Bubby]

Islam has been at the centre of world attention for some considerable time, mainly for all the wrong reasons. Bad actions perpetrated by Muslims are immediately, without thought or question, attributed to Islam. Because of this, many people think they know all about Islam.

However, if we separate truth from fiction, what is actually known about Islam? What do people really know about it - as opposed to what they have seen, heard, read or been told?

The way Islam is practised, preached and propagated rests - in the final analysis - upon knowledge. So, how well - or not, as the case may be - is Islam being conveyed?

This thread is for everyone interested in the subject, and is addressed to Muslims, non-Muslims alike.

Tbh I find Islam, especially the early Islam more of a political movement, rather than a religious movement, whose sole purpose was to unit the Arab tribes under one, later it took religious turn and went to other countries.

 

[Mages]

You haven't mentioned where the Prophet declared apostasy to be punishable by death, could you point me to the source of said claim?

Narrated `Ikrima:
`Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn `Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet (ﷺ) said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet (ﷺ) said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
Dar-us-Salam reference Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith 3017 The Book of Jihad

 

[Napa]

I would feel bad

On a serious note, all religions including Islam, christianity, judaism and Hinduism condemn non-believers to either hell or a painful death. So i feel it absurd when people pinpoint Islam on it. I guess its the trend.

But iirc Islam has a provision that if the message never reaches the nonbeliever or if it reaches in a distorted form, he could be spared.

You missed Buddhism which doesn't try to scare people into believing what it says by saying they will go to hell if they don't. Also, Hinduism isn't monolithic. There are many branches of Hindu that do not subscribe to the idea of hell.

 

[Bubby]

You missed Buddhism which doesn't try to scare people into believing what it says by saying they will go to hell if they don't. Also, Hinduism isn't monolithic. There are many branches of Hindu that do not subscribe to the idea of hell.

Hinduism is polysect, it has polytheism, monotheism and atheism polytheism has 5 principle gods the trinity(brahma vishnu shiva) devi and Ganesh, apart from that it's sun and kartikeya,
Monotheist believes in nirakar ishwar.
Two of the atheist schools I have heard are one
Sage jabali of ramayana he use to say jagat satya Braham mithya meaning world is true and God is false.
Other is sage charvak who use to say pleasures are the real happiness and life, so till the time you are alive live a life full of pleasure, if you don't have money borrow it but live a luxurious life.

 

[Jadz]

Tbh I find Islam, especially the early Islam more of a political movement, rather than a religious movement, whose sole purpose was to unit the Arab tribes under one, later it took religious turn and went to other countries.

The Qur'an is Revelation from Allah SwT, a continuation and confirmation of the Torah, Books of the Prophets and Gospels. It is only when religion is politicized by the powerful does its message become a mere tool, corrupted, perverted and distorted to serve the interests of ruling elites.

When Arabs - Muslims - engaged upon serious study of the Qur'an, a rapid expansion of scientific knowledge occurred. With the spread of Islam, translations of ancient texts - such as great works by the Greeks - resulted in a far broader expansion of knowledge, and this contributed to the European Renaissance, which in turn caused the creation of 'Western civilisation'. None of this could have happened had Islam only been a 'political movement' intended to unite warring Arab tribes. Civilisation is not created out of a vacuum, as an accident or as a result of political movements; it is created out of profound study, research, the search for knowledge and eternal truths. The Qur'an brought Arabs out of the darkness of ignorance, into the light of truth, they in turn caused other nations and communities to do likewise.

 

[Justcrazy]

Nor was I implying that. Just clarifying to Jadz that death penalty for apostacy in Islam was not devised by Abu Bakr but by the prophet(according to the Sunni hadiths).



Firstly no where in the Quran does it explicitly says punishment for apostacy is death.Also, no where in the sunnah did the prophet said to kill any Muslim who did not pay zakat. The point here is Abu Bakr devised this law (even to Umar's astonishment) as there was no such precedence by the prophet.

Today zakat is just voluntary in most Muslim majority countries & millions of Muslims do not pay them though they can afford it. Thats a lot of apostates it seems.

The bigger questions here is ;
1. Why did the Muslims capitulate upon the prophet's death?
2. What else in Islam was devised by the Companions?
3. The Quran says no compulsion in religion. The sunnah say kill those who leave the religion. How come the sunnah overrides the Quran in Sharia law (in all 4 Madhhabs)?

Brother , I do not know from where did you get idea that Quran will speak about thing related to jurisprudence and administration. It is a Book which basically speaks about aqeedah. Quran itself says that if you are not sure about anything go to people of knowledge.

During the life of prophet there was no instance of Muslim no not giving zakat , how can you expect a ruling there ? For example did prophet say anything about organ donation ?

Zakat is NOT voluntary act , it is MUST.

Muslims not giving zakat does not make it okay . For example many Muslim consuming alcohol does not make it halal.

Today there is no Islamic state in spirit , if there was action would have been taken against such Muslims.

There is No Compulsion means that you cannot force anyone to become a Muslim .

Leaving Islam is separate issue. Islam is not certain rituals , its like a nation. Now a days there is No Islamic country , so these laws cannot be enforced. Its not allowed for any individual to just take a gun and kill someone who left Islam , this is jurisdiction of Islamic court in an Islamic country , where this will be looked as treason.

 

[Mages]

Brother , I do not know from where did you get idea that Quran will speak about thing related to jurisprudence and administration. It is a Book which basically speaks about aqeedah. Quran itself says that if you are not sure about anything go to people of knowledge.

How the Quran is NOT a jurisprudence & administrative book when for instance it even give details to amputate hand for stealing (5:38) & formulas for dividing inheritances ( 4:11) etc? And who are the people of knowledge, the self proclaimed neighborhood mullah? or your Christian & Jewish friends cos Allah advises to refer to them if in doubt (10:94) ?

During the life of prophet there was no instance of Muslim no not giving zakat , how can you expect a ruling there ? For example did prophet say anything about organ donation ?

Zakat is NOT voluntary act , it is MUST.

Muslims not giving zakat does not make it okay . For example many Muslim consuming alcohol does not make it halal.

Today there is no Islamic state in spirit , if there was action would have been taken against such Muslims.

There WERE people who did not pay zakat during the period of revelations. Verse 3:180 addresses this & the punishment for those who default is in the afterlife. Who is Abu Bakr to devise capital punishment when Allah did not? And why did the Muslims started defaulting en masse immediately upon the death of the Prophet Muhammad (ṣallā llāhu ʿalayhi wa-sallam) to the extent Abu Bakr declared the Apostacy war?

There is No Compulsion means that you cannot force anyone to become a Muslim .

Leaving Islam is separate issue. Islam is not certain rituals , its like a nation. Now a days there is No Islamic country , so these laws cannot be enforced. Its not allowed for any individual to just take a gun and kill someone who left Islam , this is jurisdiction of Islamic court in an Islamic country , where this will be looked as treason.

Good that you confirm that punishment for leaving Islam is death & there is no contradiction between the Quran & Sunnah. My only hope is that there is enough honesty to inform it clearly when doing Dawa'h to the non beleivers, including the Latinos being discussed in another tread here. And why, according to you no nation is Islamic in spirit (thus by name only) on earth right now? Something failed?

 

[Justcrazy]

How the Quran is NOT a jurisprudence & administrative book when for instance it even give details to amputate hand for stealing (5:38) & formulas for dividing inheritances ( 4:11) etc? And who are the people of knowledge, the self proclaimed neighborhood mullah? or your Christian & Jewish friends cos Allah advises to refer to them if in doubt (10:94) ?



There WERE people who did not pay zakat during the period of revelations. Verse 3:180 addresses this & the punishment for those who default is in the afterlife. Who is Abu Bakr to devise capital punishment when Allah did not? And why did the Muslims started defaulting en masse immediately upon the death of the Prophet Muhammad (ṣallā llāhu ʿalayhi wa-sallam) to the extent Abu Bakr declared the Apostacy war?



Good that you confirm that punishment for leaving Islam is death & there is no contradiction between the Quran & Sunnah. My only hope is that there is enough honesty to inform it clearly when doing Dawa'h to the non beleivers, including the Latinos being discussed in another tread here. And why, according to you no nation is Islamic in spirit (thus by name only) on earth right now? Something failed?

The Quran is like constitution , it outlines basic aqeedahs , but does not go into too much details. It is the prophet who acts upon that and shows and answers the questions about it and how things are to be done.

Abu Bakr is khulafa E Rashid , and there is clear hadeeeth of prophet to follow his sunnah and sunnah of khulafa E Rasheed. For eg when the battle of siffin and Jamal took place , Ali RA treated them different to other mushriks , prophet had not set any such precedent , but Ali RA took a different stance.

Brother I do not know why or what some speaker is saying , I am bound to what I say , not others. In Islam the concept of religion is like a state . If you leave it it is considered as treason against a nation.

Islam did not fail , the Muslims failed. It has not failed now , but it failed when Muawiyah became the head of the Islamic state. Prophet had mentioned this already that after 30 years of Khulafa E Rashed there will be biting Monarchy .

 

[Mughal]

 

[Farhan The Man]

Good idea Jadz. Let me begin by asking - is apostasy punishable by death, or in any other way?

Went right in with the kill shot.