What is or has been India's legacy to the world?

[Knight_Rider]

Good beer availability in TN? Since when? Do you even know what TASMAC is?

And nice weather in TN!?

If ever there was a post emblematic of the average British Pakistani world view / education levels, this was it.

You are only showing your own inability to get out of your ego bubble. As for your illogical argument:

1) Yes compared to many western countries Southern India has a moderate climate year round, because its closer to equator. Similar to Sri Lanka and Thailand.
2) As for cheap Booz, are you claiming that it isn’t easily available in tourist locations?

I went to Israel for work last year and India is quite a popular tourist destination there for the above mentioned reasons.

 

[Itachi]

No I'm not saying Pakistan is the oldest civilization in the world. What I'm saying is that it's totally ridiculous for India to claim the IVC as 'Indian' considering.

A.) India is only as old as Pakistan.
B.) IVC is largely centred on Pakistan
B.) The people of the Indus Valley were racially, culturally, and religiously distinct to the current people of both India and Pakistan. They were not Hindu, they spoke a language lost to us they had their own script, and they had their own customs.

They are an ancient lost civilization that have no real links to India.

India has its many achievements legacies, and old empires and civilisations to be proud of, but the IVC isn't one of them.

Your theory is wrong in both accounts where two contradiction exists in the origin of sanskrit.

It was direct descendent of the language (accepted in both the theories). Hence it isn't lost but it was branched it to different sectors (this is where theories come to conflict).

And Pakistan isn't as old as India. In a multicultural entity, I. E. India, one subtype decided to have their own land based upon religion and that is how Pakistan was born. Just because there was a creation of new subtype, it doesn't mean the parent entity also reborn.

 

[hussain.r97]

Your theory is wrong in both accounts where two contradiction exists in the origin of sanskrit.

It was direct descendent of the language (accepted in both the theories). Hence it isn't lost but it was branched it to different sectors (this is where theories come to conflict).

And Pakistan isn't as old as India. In a multicultural entity, I. E. India, one subtype decided to have their own land based upon religion and that is how Pakistan was born. Just because there was a creation of new subtype, it doesn't mean the parent entity also reborn.

Sanskrit has nothing to do with the language of the IVC, this is very widely accepted. The only people who accept this theory are Hindu Nationalists, who use this theory to link the IVC to modern-day 'India'.

India was not the parent entity, the British Empire was, and before that, it was the Mughals and Delhi Sultanate, all of them were outsiders. Outside of that, India has always acted like a continent with many different nations, similar to Europe.

Once again, India has many things to be proud of and be remembered for, but the IVC isn't really one of them. Pakistan can barely claim it either, except for the fact that it was largely centred on the region of modern Pakistan.

 

[Mesozoic]

India was not the parent entity, the British Empire was, and before that, it was the Mughals and Delhi Sultanate, all of them were outsiders. Outside of that, India has always acted like a continent with many different nations, similar to Europe.

Columbus set out in search of "India" and named the native Americans as "Indians" as he thought it was "India".

The British named their company the East "India" company.

Just because it was ruled by the British or portions of it were ruled by foreigners , India won't vanish into thin air. And one should also know the difference between a sovereign Country and a nation.

Doesn't matter if you agree or not , India as a nation has milleniums of history.

 

[Itachi]

Sanskrit has nothing to do with the language of the IVC, this is very widely accepted. The only people who accept this theory are Hindu Nationalists, who use this theory to link the IVC to modern-day 'India'.

India was not the parent entity, the British Empire was, and before that, it was the Mughals and Delhi Sultanate, all of them were outsiders. Outside of that, India has always acted like a continent with many different nations, similar to Europe.

Once again, India has many things to be proud of and be remembered for, but the IVC isn't really one of them. Pakistan can barely claim it either, except for the fact that it was largely centred on the region of modern Pakistan.

I would like to read the content based upon which you have stated that sanskrit has nothing to do with indo Aryan language lineage.

Secondly, you are in confusion with the entity that is India (the nation) and India (the culture). In your previous post, you mentioned India (the culture) but now you are pointing towards India (the nation) while explaining. Though these two should be interchangeable, in case of India, it is more complicated than other nations.

 

[hussain.r97]

Columbus set out in search of "India" and named the native Americans as "Indians" as he thought it was "India".

The British named their company the East "India" company.

Just because it was ruled by the British or portions of it were ruled by foreigners , India won't vanish into thin air. And one should also know the difference between a sovereign Country and a nation.

Doesn't matter if you agree or not , India as a nation has milleniums of history.

India as a continent has millennia of history.

When has the continent of India willingly formed a union before 1947? The answer is never. Yes, there were certainly social and religious developments that transcended boundaries, and also spread when the nations of the continent were a part of a larger empire, but India has never been a single culture, political entity, etc.

Furthermore, the part of the subcontinent that is now modern Pakistan has been under "non-Indian" rule for a significant part of its history, coming under, Indus Valley, Persian, Mongol, Timurid, Muslim, Macedonian, Indo-Greek, etc rule for significant amounts of time, so much of the history of this region is distinct to the rest of the subcontinent. You can't just outright call the subcontinent a single Indian nation, it is akin to calling all of Europe a nation, which is a gross misrepresentation of the truth.

If you're bringing labels into this, the word India/Indian is simply the term Greeks coined to collectively label all the people living around the Indus River and East, similar to how everyone living South of Egypt were called Aethiops. It certainly doesn't mean India was a single entity.

 

[hussain.r97]

I would like to read the content based upon which you have stated that sanskrit has nothing to do with indo Aryan language lineage.

Secondly, you are in confusion with the entity that is India (the nation) and India (the culture). In your previous post, you mentioned India (the culture) but now you are pointing towards India (the nation) while explaining. Though these two should be interchangeable, in case of India, it is more complicated than other nations.

Sanskrit is totally derived from Indo Aryan lineage. I said it has nothing to do with the language the people of the Indus Valley spoke, as these people lived in the Indus Valley for thousands of years before the Aryan migrants/invaders even arrived in the subcontinent.

India (the nation) is a totally new concept, while India (the culture) does not exist as a single culture. There are so many different and distinct cultures within the subcontinent, it's not correct to lump them together. Someone from Indian Punjab will be culturally similar to someone from Pakistan but have little similarity with someone from the South, or from Bengal, etc.

 

[Knight_Rider]

Columbus set out in search of "India" and named the native Americans as "Indians" as he thought it was "India".

The British named their company the East "India" company.

Just because it was ruled by the British or portions of it were ruled by foreigners , India won't vanish into thin air. And one should also know the difference between a sovereign Country and a nation.

Doesn't matter if you agree or not , India as a nation has milleniums of history.

So Columbus setting out to find India is an evidence that it was an epitome of civilization and a mountain of Wealth?

What wealth exactly? Other than ample supply of Humans (i.e. slave labour) and agricultural land, what else did it have to offer?

Europeans were roaming around the globe at that time to find places to colonise and India was one of many places. As for East India Company, are you aware that there were many similar Colonial Corporations around the world. Google West India Company for example.

 

[Mesozoic]

So Columbus setting out to find India is an evidence that it was an epitome of civilization and a mountain of Wealth?

What wealth exactly? Other than ample supply of Humans (i.e. slave labour) and agricultural land, what else did it have to offer?

Europeans were roaming around the globe at that time to find places to colonise and India was one of many places. As for East India Company, are you aware that there were many similar Colonial Corporations around the world. Google West India Company for example.

Please read the context of my post before ranting.

 

[Knight_Rider]

I would like to read the content based upon which you have stated that sanskrit has nothing to do with indo Aryan language lineage.

Secondly, you are in confusion with the entity that is India (the nation) and India (the culture). In your previous post, you mentioned India (the culture) but now you are pointing towards India (the nation) while explaining. Though these two should be interchangeable, in case of India, it is more complicated than other nations.

What exactly is India as an entity? Other than a loosely defined set of beliefs (Hinduism) what else have many different peoples of India have in common?

Language, food, Genetics, Looks all differ widely between North and South, East and West. This is why there were many regional dynasties in India like Maratha empire, Sikh empire etc. Rater than 1 big “Indian Empire”. The foreign Invaders like Mughals and British brought it all together as a mean for governance and not for the sake of some kind of Nation building.

 

[Bhaijaan]

My dear friend Captain,

Republic of Pakistan remains India's greatest contribution to the world.

When mere 10% of an Empire makes a nation as wonderful as Pakistan with such wonderful and gifted people, it goes to prove how great of a civilization India is. Arguably the greatest.

 

[Itachi]

What exactly is India as an entity? Other than a loosely defined set of beliefs (Hinduism) what else have many different peoples of India have in common?

Language, food, Genetics, Looks all differ widely between North and South, East and West. This is why there were many regional dynasties in India like Maratha empire, Sikh empire etc. Rater than 1 big “Indian Empire”. The foreign Invaders like Mughals and British brought it all together as a mean for governance and not for the sake of some kind of Nation building.

I see this trend especially from people from Abrahamic religion where they fail to grasp the concept of being different but still belonging to each other. It has to be either "me" or "them".

Life doesn't work like that way. The borders of culture isn't same as borders of a nation. It gets blurred and gets overlaps at times. By your definition, India still doesn't have a culture.

 

[Patriot]

Facts are facts. If the OP boasts about "his" country's legacy, it of course needs to be pointed out that it is not all good.

England has a great legacy as the oldest surviving democracy and the country which worked to abolish slavery worldwide. But also part of its legacy are the millions dead in famines in its colonies. Or is remembering them is "bad", and we should just delete them from history?

England is the greatest nation on the planet and has shaped science, technology, engineering, arts, fashion, etc. No other nation competes as well and you want to talk about it’s colonialist past as what it should be remembered for. All nations have done deplorable things, and England like other countries should be remembered for its great achievements.

 

[Knight_Rider]

I see this trend especially from people from Abrahamic religion where they fail to grasp the concept of being different but still belonging to each other. It has to be either "me" or "them".

Life doesn't work like that way. The borders of culture isn't same as borders of a nation. It gets blurred and gets overlaps at times. By your definition, India still doesn't have a culture.

Then why do Hindus (esp. ******) dont apply your philosophy on others that are different (in belief) but still belong together?

Indian Muslims (and most Pakistanis) share same blood lines as Hindus (fully or partially), so why cant it be accepted in Hindu society that they are the same people and not Foreign Invaders. To me, there is a natural affinity between Pakistani sand Indians, yet there is this religion based hatred. Which is polarising us instead of bringing closer.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Maths imo.

Aryabhatta inventing zero, Varahamihira's contributions to trigonometry and Panini's various contributions to mathematics (Panini was actually from present-day Pakistan).

South Asia has had a much bigger impact on mathematics compared to the Greeks, and Euclides in particular. But sadly, most people don't know much about south asian mathematicians.

Perhaps that is because it hasn't translated to India as a country itself. Mathematics is a very precise science, when you see India, it all looks like a jumbled mess. All the scientific knowledge doesn't appear to have translated to building an impressive nation, hence sadly, no one associates great scientists with India.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Personally speaking, this thread is in bad taste as India has a great legacy. But your comment about England is just as bad.

I disagree most emphatically. If India has a great legacy, then this thread is a superb place to showcase it. When I keep hearing mutterings about bad taste, I think it reflects on those posters own perceptions rather than mine. The immediate defensive stance just makes you think these guys themselves don't believe India has a great legacy, that is why their mind goes straight to the negative perceptions.

 

[miandadrules]

I always find it laughable that people try to get take credit for the “achievements” of their ancestors.

On topic, modern day Pakistan and India formed the cradle of civilisation. I guess that’s a legacy and contribution.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Facts are facts. If the OP boasts about "his" country's legacy, it of course needs to be pointed out that it is not all good.

England has a great legacy as the oldest surviving democracy and the country which worked to abolish slavery worldwide. But also part of its legacy are the millions dead in famines in its colonies. Or is remembering them is "bad", and we should just delete them from history?

I'm not saying you are wrong, but death of millions by famine is generally not that well known outside of the subcontinent, and to be quite honest, I'm not even sure it's generally well known even there.

I can say hand on heart that the first time I heard about it ( in Bengal I believe) was on here. Even here this is disputed by at least one British member.

Britons and the wider world in general are aware that European countries had great empires, but it is not really seen as a bad thing. In most eyes Britain is seen as bringing enlightenment to dark places in the world, sort of like Gandalf the White in LOTR.

 

[Napa]

That’s all you could come up with?

A billion years from now, if humanity survives, the names of Bose (Bose-Einstein statistics), Saha (Saha ionization equation) and Chandrasekhar (Chandrasekhar's limit) will still be remembered along with others like Pythagoras, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Feynman and Higgs. If I were to write about such stuff, it would go over your head so my earlier post has to suffice.

 

[Napa]

I'm not saying you are wrong, but death of millions by famine is generally not that well known outside of the subcontinent, and to be quite honest, I'm not even sure it's generally well known even there.

I can say hand on heart that the first time I heard about it ( in Bengal I believe) was on here. Even here this is disputed by at least one British member.

Britons and the wider world in general are aware that European countries had great empires, but it is not really seen as a bad thing. In most eyes Britain is seen as bringing enlightenment to dark places in the world, sort of like Gandalf the White in LOTR.

You need to ask your question clearly.

"What is India's legacy, what has India contributed to mankind?" is not the same as "What does the Westerner with an average knowledge of history know about India's contributions to mankind?"

The answer to the first question is long, the answer to the second question could be "vegan diet" (though Indians who avoid eating meat usually consume milk products so are not vegans).

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You need to ask your question clearly.

"What is India's legacy, what has India contributed to mankind?" is not the same as "What does the Westerner with an average knowledge of history know about India's contributions to mankind?"

The answer to the first question is long, the answer to the second question could be "vegan diet" (though Indians who avoid eating meat usually consume milk products so are not vegans).

Is India's legacy better known in the east then? I mean outside of India obviously, so you could include the rest of Asia, Russia, Africa etc. I knew an Indian guy who worked in Russia for a while and he said the racist abuse they got there was pretty terrible, and could end up in assault as well.

This is my point really, it might well be that Indian legacy is great, just does not appear to be recognised as such outside of India. I feel that people are more impressed by the present than the past, and only when a country becomes one of those everyone wants to be part of is true recognition given.

 

[Local.Dada]

Is India's legacy better known in the east then? I mean outside of India obviously, so you could include the rest of Asia, Russia, Africa etc. I knew an Indian guy who worked in Russia for a while and he said the racist abuse they got there was pretty terrible, and could end up in assault as well.

This is my point really, it might well be that Indian legacy is great, just does not appear to be recognised as such outside of India. I feel that people are more impressed by the present than the past, and only when a country becomes one of those everyone wants to be part of is true recognition given.

I am glad as a caucasian British man you treat your fellow races equally with love. Just hope the world had more like you.

 

[Local.Dada]

So Hindu indians want to bad out Mughals at every opportunity but claim their achievements and legacy as Their own?

First rule of looking smart in a debate and having a opposing view. Don't throw blanket statements LOL

Hindu Indians- who are these Hindu Indians and how many have you heard saying that?

Are you talking about some loons who exist? I mean if that is the entire basis of your argument, I will leave it to you to reflect how it sounds.

Are you talking about BJP and RSS?

ok let me tell you this and I have to tread very careful here because you might jump to conclusions if you don't read the entire thing. There has been a long running conspiracy theory that some of the Mughal architecture was built or credited to already existing Hindu structures most prominently the Taj Mahal. I have read some of it online and it is pretty compelling read just like the Moon Landing conspiracy theory.

However this question was asked to someone like Yogi Adityanath in one of the shows and he brushed it aside. This coming from one of the apparently most right wing leader in India. The BJP,RSS have not altered any textbooks to a point of changing the entire narrative like it happens in Pakistan.

Indian's have always potrayed guys like Akbar,Jahangir,Shah Jahan and Tipu Sultan as noble heroes even though every one has a dark side but that is not brought up.

Similarly Ashoka is shown as a blood thirsty emperor too before he found religion.

India has always been biased to blood thirsty invaders who caused bloodshed be it a foreigner like Khilji,Ghori,Nadir Shah,Ghajni or the one's who were not secular like Aurangazeb.

Indian mythology or ancient history has never been about expansion. It has been about defending. Be it honor or integrity. So that is where the bias comes from.

Muslims or Parsis or christians- specifically these 3 religions because they did not originate from India are considered as much of Indians as the rest.

This is a futile post because you probably already knoew most of that but hey it is good to have a refresher when you are stuck in a narrative

 

[Napa]

Is India's legacy better known in the east then? I mean outside of India obviously, so you could include the rest of Asia, Russia, Africa etc. I knew an Indian guy who worked in Russia for a while and he said the racist abuse they got there was pretty terrible, and could end up in assault as well.

This is my point really, it might well be that Indian legacy is great, just does not appear to be recognised as such outside of India. I feel that people are more impressed by the present than the past, and only when a country becomes one of those everyone wants to be part of is true recognition given.

Stay focussed on the topic instead of wandering off to personal anecdotes about Russia.

Whether India's legacy is recognized is different from what is India's legacy.

Most of the world is ill-informed. Not surprising given that the majority is addicted to brainless TV, and Katy Perry has 107 M twitter followers.

If I were to ask the average American "What is France's legacy?", most would have no knowledge of Voltaire, Rousseau, Galois, Pasteur and Carnot. From your posts, unfortunately I would guess neither do you.

If you goal is to discuss whether people are aware of history and the legacies of different countries, you have phrased your OP very poorly.

 

[troodon]

Yoga and the concepts of Mathematics, Spices (famous all over the ancient world), Dharmic Religions (Buddhism had huge impact on the world). Sanskrit which gave rise to many languages.

Indus valley Civilization. Recently the genome of a woman from IVC was analyzed and it showed that the woman had the genome of Dravidians(Indegenous Hunter Gatheres mixed with pastorolists from middle east mostly). There was no evidence of any invasion from Aryans.

So India did have a great civilization with proper well planned cities more than 3000 years ago.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Stay focussed on the topic instead of wandering off to personal anecdotes about Russia.

Whether India's legacy is recognized is different from what is India's legacy.

Most of the world is ill-informed. Not surprising given that the majority is addicted to brainless TV, and Katy Perry has 107 M twitter followers.

If I were to ask the average American "What is France's legacy?", most would have no knowledge of Voltaire, Rousseau, Galois, Pasteur and Carnot. From your posts, unfortunately I would guess neither do you.

If you goal is to discuss whether people are aware of history and the legacies of different countries, you have phrased your OP very poorly.

The average American might not have heard of Voltaire or Galois, but they have a general perception of France as a sophisticated country which has shaped history and the culture which we are still living today through the French Revolution which drew a line under the age of monarchy.

I feel this is the disconnect we have with Indian legacy. There seems to be some evidence of civilisation hundreds of years ago, but it is not reflected so much in today's India and perhaps that is what lessens the impact. Legacy might be there, but it is reinforced much more when you can see that legacy living on in current times as we see in Britain and France.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yoga and the concepts of Mathematics, Spices (famous all over the ancient world), Dharmic Religions (Buddhism had huge impact on the world). Sanskrit which gave rise to many languages.

Indus valley Civilization. Recently the genome of a woman from IVC was analyzed and it showed that the woman had the genome of Dravidians(Indegenous Hunter Gatheres mixed with pastorolists from middle east mostly). There was no evidence of any invasion from Aryans.

So India did have a great civilization with proper well planned cities more than 3000 years ago.

Case in point. If India had well planned cities 3000 years ago, you can imagine that legacy would make far more impression if we could see how that reflected in today's India rather than what we actually see with our own eyes.

 

[troodon]

Case in point. If India had well planned cities 3000 years ago, you can imagine that legacy would make far more impression if we could see how that reflected in today's India rather than what we actually see with our own eyes.

Obviously the great legacy of IVC did not get transferred to modern times. India is far less developed in terms of city planning than IVC.

 

[Local.Dada]

Case in point. If India had well planned cities 3000 years ago, you can imagine that legacy would make far more impression if we could see how that reflected in today's India rather than what we actually see with our own eyes.

Arre bhai chahte kya ho? Are you now talking about India's legacy in infrastructure. I mean still it is not clear on what you want. Sure Indus valley civilization has had one of the oldest known cities to mankind and drainage systems etc, that can count as a legacy in a historical context. Still not sure what exactly you want.

I get the feeling you want to blurt something out but at this point just holding back and kind of stalling the debate.

You asked for legacy and you got a lot of answers. You can agree to disagree on those. you keep adding these caveats lol.

 

[IndoorCricket]

AFAIK, India was earning the highest GDP worldwide before East India Company took over.
Brits plundered India and left millions in poverty. We are still struggling with our identity, just been over seventy years of Independence, hopefully we will remember who we are.

India's legacy is not spreading through sword its ideals.. It was through peace and intellectual debates. Indians were never interested in outer world(materialistic). We know outer world keeps changing according to time the only thing that is constant is our inner world, that is where our legacy resides.

 

[Swashbuckler]

I've done research on Harrapan-Dravidian links, and there is no real evidence to suggest that Indus Valley People were Dravidian. No one knows who the Indus Valley People were, they script hasn't even been deciphered. It's more likely that, with the many waves of Aryan migration, the civilisation collapsed, and the people got 'absorbed' into the migrating population.

That's interesting to hear man , research as in have you done a thesis on it or just for hobby? This area of research is getting quite popular in my state.

If one believes the Aryan migration theory, it certainly lends some credence to the IVC people being Dravidian or proto-Dravidian. I agree their script hasn't been deciphered and we know little about them, but don't you think it is strange having a Dravidian language in Balochistan (Brahui)? When the Aryans pushed their way in some might have been absorbed and others might have moved down south. Doesn't seem a far-fetched theory. There are many excavations going on right now and genetic studies including in Tamil Nadu (Keezhadi), things may become more clear in the future.

Look at a map of the IVC, its totally centred on Pakistan with some of its outreaches in India and Afghanistan. Some of the sites you mentioned aren't even IVC sites, they are pre-IVC sites that have remnants of tribal people, not of any civilisation. The major cities of the IVC that we know of (Mohenjo-daro, Harrappa, Mehergargh) are all in Pakistan.

IVC is also there is many Indian states, Indus wan't the only river common to that civilization. I wouldn't call other portions outreaches because some major sites have been excavated in present day India. In fact there are way more number of IVC sites in India than in Pakistan, I don't want to make it an Indo-Pak issue because all this happened much before our time. Just want to say that its area was much larger than what you are trying to portray.

Could you be more specific about the sites I mentioned not being IVC sites? I mentioned: Rakhigarhi, Dholavira, Kalibangan, Lothal. Excavation sites at Lothal and Dholavira reveal fortified complexes, drainage systems, fire altars, Great Baths (like Mohenjodaro), burnt bricks, finished products, water reservoirs etc. There was a port in Lothal during late IVC period. Kalibangan had a citadel just like Harappa, Mohenjodaro. Rakhigarhi is of course in news of late, there are other important sites in India I didn't mention but if you are interested I can share some info about them. Earliest excavations were done in present day Pakistan but there has been a lot of progress since then, a hot topic for research now.

Since you mentioned Mehrgarh, now that is a pre-IVC site. Amri and Kot Diji are early IVC stage while the great cities emerged in mature IVC phase.

Indian civilization that we know of today has very little to do with the Indus Valley Civilisation.

We can't be sure till there is more research on this subject. I am curious about the Pashupati seal, could it be proto-Shiva? He even sits in a yogic posture, 'padmasana'. The terracotta figurine of what looks like Mother Goddess, too many unanswered questions. Possibility of nature worship, use of amulets, burial methods, fashion etc. We can't disconnect from the past, surely there would have been a carry-over from there to the Vedic period. Civilization as we know it today can be linked right back to the stone age, that is why we study history. Various events in the past shape our civilization as we know today.

 

[Knight_Rider]

A billion years from now, if humanity survives, the names of Bose (Bose-Einstein statistics), Saha (Saha ionization equation) and Chandrasekhar (Chandrasekhar's limit) will still be remembered along with others like Pythagoras, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Feynman and Higgs. If I were to write about such stuff, it would go over your head so my earlier post has to suffice.

Try harder. These are not significant enough in the grand scheme of things!
(Albeit due credit to the Indian names you mentioned there).

 

[Saeed]

There are rumors that Buddhism spread out of modern day Pakistan to the neighboring countries due to Gandhara Kingdom and not India.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Yoga
Buddhism
Hindusim
Concept of karma
Invention of 0
Sanskrit, Tamil (oldest languages to most)
Vegan diet
Spices

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Trignometry
Decimal marking
Indigo dye
Iskon

Gandhi (non violence)

 

[sjahmed23]

Lol alot of what is being said here is from ancient times. If you look at modern times then it's not much compared to Japan, Korea, China, Europe or US. Can't even think of anything in my house that's made in India apart from maybe my towels.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Try harder. These are not significant enough in the grand scheme of things!
(Albeit due credit to the Indian names you mentioned there).

And who decides whats important?

 

[Napa]

And who decides whats important?

When he made that statement, it was so inane that I didn't even bother replying.

 

[Swashbuckler]

There are rumors that Buddhism spread out of modern day Pakistan to the neighboring countries due to Gandhara Kingdom and not India.

There can be no denying of the possibility but 'not India' sounds inaccurate. Ashoka had a big role in spreading the doctrines, Bodhidharma a Tamil prince took Chan Buddhism to China, Tantric Buddhism a legacy of Eastern part of India etc. Many Mauryan, Guptas, Palas, South Indian dynasties patronized Buddhism and sent emissaries to Sri Lanka, East and South East Asia. Nalanda and Vikramshila in present day Bihar were Buddhist centres of learning where monks and scholars from all over the world would come to study, this has been confirmed by famous foreign travelers.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Lol alot of what is being said here is from ancient times. If you look at modern times then it's not much compared to Japan, Korea, China, Europe or US. Can't even think of anything in my house that's made in India apart from maybe my towels.

I mentioned this earlier, that I have no problem with accepting that India might have been the richest country in the world a thousand years ago, this theory seems to be put about a lot on these forums, but problem is it hasn't carried over to modern times. So does it still count as a legacy?

What most people outside of India think of when they think of legacy, is Yoga, Kama Sutra and curry. There is the Taj Mahal of course, but many Indians don't want to claim it because it was part of the Mughal empire. But I believe the Mughal Empire was part of India's most glorious period, if they would own it and cherish it more, it could indeed be part of a lasting legacy. The Mughal reign was very much Indian flavoured, not some sort of foreign entity which some like to portray it.

 

[Technics 1210]

I mentioned this earlier, that I have no problem with accepting that India might have been the richest country in the world a thousand years ago, this theory seems to be put about a lot on these forums, but problem is it hasn't carried over to modern times. So does it still count as a legacy?

What most people outside of India think of when they think of legacy, is Yoga, Kama Sutra and curry. There is the Taj Mahal of course, but many Indians don't want to claim it because it was part of the Mughal empire. But I believe the Mughal Empire was part of India's most glorious period, if they would own it and cherish it more, it could indeed be part of a lasting legacy. The Mughal reign was very much Indian flavoured, not some sort of foreign entity which some like to portray it.

I would add Call Centers.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There can be no denying of the possibility but 'not India' sounds inaccurate. Ashoka had a big role in spreading the doctrines, Bodhidharma a Tamil prince took Chan Buddhism to China, Tantric Buddhism a legacy of Eastern part of India etc. Many Mauryan, Guptas, Palas, South Indian dynasties patronized Buddhism and sent emissaries to Sri Lanka, East and South East Asia. Nalanda and Vikramshila in present day Bihar were Buddhist centres of learning where monks and scholars from all over the world would come to study, this has been confirmed by famous foreign travelers.

There was no Pakistan or India back then, which is why for argument sake I included all those regions as part of the OP. It's not really a them or us debate if you think of it in those terms.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I would add Call Centers.

Call centres are a fairly recent development, and I doubt they originated in India. Big corporations set up there to run the same operations at a much cheaper cost than in the US. I think it would be a stretch to describe them as an Indian legacy just yet. Perhaps in another 50 years they will have cornered the market completely and we could say yes, that's an Indian thing. Or by then they might have become more bother than they are worth so far to early to include in this discussion.

 

[Local.Dada]

Speaking more in the modern context- in the 70's or 80's the stereotype of India or people from India used to be taxi drivers, convenience store owners like Apu etc, however these days the stereotype has become the Indian nerd who is the computer expert ot technological whiz or someone who is a doctor.

Even though it is a nerdy stereotype, the fact that the west acknowledges India's emphasis on education in science and technology shows that India has built a legacy overcoming negative tropes.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Speaking more in the modern context- in the 70's or 80's the stereotype of India or people from India used to be taxi drivers, convenience store owners like Apu etc, however these days the stereotype has become the Indian nerd who is the computer expert ot technological whiz or someone who is a doctor.

Even though it is a nerdy stereotype, the fact that the west acknowledges India's emphasis on education in science and technology shows that India has built a legacy overcoming negative tropes.

Like call centres, that is quite a recent development, still too early to call that a legacy. Perhaps in 50 years if we start seeing the Indian equivalent of Steve Jobs or Mark Zukerberg, Indians will start to be recognised as leaders in science and technology rather than contributors. Although some might argue that unless they are based in India, then perhaps they will be recognised by their country of residence rather than ethnic origin.

Think of all the great Motown singers from the past. Are they considered African or American?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Like call centres, that is quite a recent development, still too early to call that a legacy. Perhaps in 50 years if we start seeing the Indian equivalent of Steve Jobs or Mark Zukerberg, Indians will start to be recognised as leaders in science and technology rather than contributors. Although some might argue that unless they are based in India, then perhaps they will be recognised by their country of residence rather than ethnic origin.

Think of all the great Motown singers from the past. Are they considered African or American?

Indians may not admit it, but Pakistan has been one of India's major legacies.

 

[warcry]

caste system, and DESIGNATED

 

[Local.Dada]

Like call centres, that is quite a recent development, still too early to call that a legacy. Perhaps in 50 years if we start seeing the Indian equivalent of Steve Jobs or Mark Zukerberg, Indians will start to be recognised as leaders in science and technology rather than contributors. Although some might argue that unless they are based in India, then perhaps they will be recognised by their country of residence rather than ethnic origin.

Think of all the great Motown singers from the past. Are they considered African or American?

This didn't happen overnight. It has built up over a time.Indians have been migrating to the silicon valley since the late 70's early 80's. Indians becoming CEOs of Google.Microsoft,Adobe,Pepsi (former CEO),Mastercard etc etc didn't happen all of a sudden one fine day. Indian immigrants showed great work ethic and outstanding academic acumen to pave the way for others. Guess what is common, all names mentioned were the product of the Indian educational system.That defines itself as legacy.

The Motown example doesn't make sense. That is false equivalence. You can equate that to say someone like the founder of Bose audio. He is an indian origin person as well but while we can be proud of that no one associates him as a legacy or product of India.

Now as far as Zuckerberg and Jobs or Gates go their legacy is innovation. No one has claimed India's legacy as innovation in the modern day. However strong academics and producing corporate leaders and decision makers, absolutely we can proudly claim that as a legacy.

Legacy is a positive term. It is 2 ways to look at things. If you ask someone what is the Pakistan Cricket team's legacy you can either say ball tampering or bottle caps but on the other hand you can admire the science of reverse swing itself that everyone uses. It is a matter of perspective.

 

[SakunaPataka]

I will be generous here and allow all versions of 'India' so that would include past and present including current states like Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Pakistan etc. Basically the subcontinent.

When we talk about my country: England, it would be a very easy topic, but I am struggling a little when it comes to India. The principle of vegan diet is the best I have come up with so far, and that is no small thing to be honest. It's a good starting pont. Anyone got any better suggestions?

indeed a very easy topic when it comes to England ... so those who answered with Genocide, Slave trade, thievery, Colonial attitude please pat yourselves on your back. Well done.

 

[Technics 1210]

indeed a very easy topic when it comes to England ... so those who answered with Genocide, Slave trade, thievery, Colonial attitude please pat yourselves on your back. Well done.

Look at it another way, without the British Empire, the SC with all its claims, did sweet FA on the global stage, and this after 1000s of years! Along come the British Empire and literately put SC, or present day India, on the map in a few 100 years. So yes, in a brutal and ironic way, India is a legacy of the British Empire, because without the British, India/SC would not be where it is today.

You can argue about the ills of the empire etc, but be sure to balance it along with the Judiciary, Education, Transportation, & Trade infrastructure benefits.

 

[SakunaPataka]

Look at it another way, without the British Empire, the SC with all its claims, did sweet FA on the global stage, and this after 1000s of years! Along come the British Empire and literately put SC, or present day India, on the map in a few 100 years. So yes, in a brutal and ironic way, India is a legacy of the British Empire, because without the British, India/SC would not be where it is today.

You can argue about the ills of the empire etc, but be sure to balance it along with the Judiciary, Education, Transportation, & Trade infrastructure benefits.

There is a very easy way to settle this "putting on map business"... lets see what happens when the trillions looted from India are given back. I mean afterall you guys are righteous and stand for everything thats noble and just .... right ?

 

[Technics 1210]

There is a very easy way to settle this "putting on map business"... lets see what happens when the trillions looted from India are given back. I mean afterall you guys are righteous and stand for everything thats noble and just .... right ?

Easy mate! I was just providing balance, but hey, if you want to get technical, all the loot could be given back, but you would still be speaking English, along with 100s of Millions in the India. This is what is called a legacy.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This didn't happen overnight. It has built up over a time.Indians have been migrating to the silicon valley since the late 70's early 80's. Indians becoming CEOs of Google.Microsoft,Adobe,Pepsi (former CEO),Mastercard etc etc didn't happen all of a sudden one fine day. Indian immigrants showed great work ethic and outstanding academic acumen to pave the way for others. Guess what is common, all names mentioned were the product of the Indian educational system.That defines itself as legacy.

The Motown example doesn't make sense. That is false equivalence. You can equate that to say someone like the founder of Bose audio. He is an indian origin person as well but while we can be proud of that no one associates him as a legacy or product of India.

Now as far as Zuckerberg and Jobs or Gates go their legacy is innovation. No one has claimed India's legacy as innovation in the modern day. However strong academics and producing corporate leaders and decision makers, absolutely we can proudly claim that as a legacy.

Legacy is a positive term. It is 2 ways to look at things. If you ask someone what is the Pakistan Cricket team's legacy you can either say ball tampering or bottle caps but on the other hand you can admire the science of reverse swing itself that everyone uses. It is a matter of perspective.

You can't really say that innovators and creators are the same as worker drones. Only one of those are going to be credited with leaving a legacy. That said, there's nothing to say that India can't produce the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. They just haven't done it yet.

 

[Local.Dada]

Look at it another way, without the British Empire, the SC with all its claims, did sweet FA on the global stage, and this after 1000s of years! Along come the British Empire and literately put SC, or present day India, on the map in a few 100 years. So yes, in a brutal and ironic way, India is a legacy of the British Empire, because without the British, India/SC would not be where it is today.

You can argue about the ills of the empire etc, but be sure to balance it along with the Judiciary, Education, Transportation, & Trade infrastructure benefits.

That is such a ** argument used by the British to justify looting a country for its resources, enslaving natives etc etc.

Japan has never been conquered by the British how come they have functioning laws, technology, infrastructure etc and in fact over took britain in a lot of aspects?

Same goes for Russia.

If you are talking about the map of present day subcontinent well maps and borders change but what doesn't change is cultural identity. For example Bangladesh and West Bengal or Pakistan Punjab and Indian Punjab are part of different countries, fine they have different majority religion but does it mean they don't have any similar identity?

Indian subcontinent might have been different princely states but since time immemorial it has been identified as 1 place. Even today we all are known as Desis/brown people etc in the west. So if you legacy of Britain is just the current day map as it exists, that is nothing to boast about

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There is a very easy way to settle this "putting on map business"... lets see what happens when the trillions looted from India are given back. I mean afterall you guys are righteous and stand for everything thats noble and just .... right ?

Wow. If India can get back the trillions Britain generated from India, then indeed one could describe that as a legacy. Not many nations have managed it!

 

[SakunaPataka]

Wow. If India can get back the trillions Britain generated looted from India, then indeed one could describe that as a legacy. Not many nations have managed it!

fixed for accuracy.

 

[Technics 1210]

Wow. If India can get back the trillions Britain generated from India, then indeed one could describe that as a legacy. Not many nations have managed it!

Will never happen. The British could counter argue by claiming all post colonial economic prosperity in India is because Indians not only speak English but the foundations for trade were laid by the British.

 

[Technics 1210]

That is such a ** argument used by the British to justify looting a country for its resources, enslaving natives etc etc.

Japan has never been conquered by the British how come they have functioning laws, technology, infrastructure etc and in fact over took britain in a lot of aspects?

Same goes for Russia.

If you are talking about the map of present day subcontinent well maps and borders change but what doesn't change is cultural identity. For example Bangladesh and West Bengal or Pakistan Punjab and Indian Punjab are part of different countries, fine they have different majority religion but does it mean they don't have any similar identity?

Indian subcontinent might have been different princely states but since time immemorial it has been identified as 1 place. Even today we all are known as Desis/brown people etc in the west. So if you legacy of Britain is just the current day map as it exists, that is nothing to boast about

Are you seriously comparing Japan with India? Japanese culture is ingrained and riddled with principles such as Honour, Respect, and Trust. Indian culture is the complete opposite with religious, cultural, and social divisions. This is the reason why it took no more than 30000 British troops to conquer the SC for a good part of 300 years. Oh I should remind you that Japaneses may not have been conquered by the British, but they certainly adopted British industrial inventions, including the railway.

As for this *loot* claim. Tell me, how is the value of the loot derived; someone mentioned Trillions, is thie true? If so, where are the calculations? I ask you right now, what loot would you want returned from Britain to India, what would you list? Top 3 - go!

 

[Local.Dada]

Are you seriously comparing Japan with India? Japanese culture is ingrained and riddled with principles such as Honour, Respect, and Trust. Indian culture is the complete opposite with religious, cultural, and social divisions. This is the reason why it took no more than 30000 British troops to conquer the SC for a good part of 300 years. Oh I should remind you that Japaneses may not have been conquered by the British, but they certainly adopted British industrial inventions, including the railway.

As for this *loot* claim. Tell me, how is the value of the loot derived; someone mentioned Trillions, is thie true? If so, where are the calculations? I ask you right now, what loot would you want returned from Britain to India, what would you list? Top 3 - go!

What are you a member of the British KKK lol. Since when did diversity in religion,race and culture become the opposite of honor and respect?

Are you telling me Indians or for the matter of fact of Pakistanis and other SC folk had no concept of honor and trust? That is straight out of the white supremacist handbook.

Firstly I am not comparing Japan with India. my point was you didn't need to be colonized to pick up good ideas such as building infrastructure,Judiciary and technology and you just made my point saying that Japan adopted the British technology of that time.

So Britain developing infrastructure was for their own benefit and that would have happened regardless had they or hadn't ruled the Indian subcontinent. In fact that plagued the development.

Let me give you an example in India and pretty sure some parts of Pakistan the local state head will develop the area, bring jobs, lay roads because it suits his voter base and ignore the rest, What British did is no different but just at the larger scale. That was definitely not a favor.

 

[Knight_Rider]

Rather than making many things themselves colonial Britain functioned as a cartel and trading hub. They captured the Land in one part of the world (e.g. Australia and North America) and slave labour from other parts of the world (e.g. Africa and India). Put both to work together, sold the produce in world market (which they controlled as a Cartel and military power) and then kept the profits themselves.

That’s why i said that since beginning India didnt have too much more to offer than cheap labour (which is still the case today). They also had some good agricultural land, where British made them grow commercial crops like Tea and cotton and then imported these to be processes in UK itself. Despite all the tall claims “we” in Sub-continent dont really have too much to boast about.

This also includes the Muslim Empires of india, who didnt do much more than building palaces and forts. Compare their achievements with those in other Muslim empires and you will see the difference. May be its something in the soil...!

 

[Technics 1210]

What are you a member of the British KKK lol. Since when did diversity in religion,race and culture become the opposite of honor and respect?

Are you telling me Indians or for the matter of fact of Pakistanis and other SC folk had no concept of honor and trust? That is straight out of the white supremacist handbook.

Firstly I am not comparing Japan with India. my point was you didn't need to be colonized to pick up good ideas such as building infrastructure,Judiciary and technology and you just made my point saying that Japan adopted the British technology of that time.

So Britain developing infrastructure was for their own benefit and that would have happened regardless had they or hadn't ruled the Indian subcontinent. In fact that plagued the development.

Let me give you an example in India and pretty sure some parts of Pakistan the local state head will develop the area, bring jobs, lay roads because it suits his voter base and ignore the rest, What British did is no different but just at the larger scale. That was definitely not a favor.

I asked you to provide me with a top 3 list of loot you want Britain to return to India. If I am lucky, you might even provide me with the calculations which determine the value of the loot.

let me know when you have a list.

 

[Itachi]

I asked you to provide me with a top 3 list of loot you want Britain to return to India. If I am lucky, you might even provide me with the calculations which determine the value of the loot.

let me know when you have a list.

1. Years where people were forced to live like a second class citizen.
2. Lives of jalianwala bagh massacre.
3. Lost generations who were forced to fight for basic rights instead of pursuing education to bring India ahead.

This includes not only current India, but Pakistan and Bangladesh too.

 

[Mamoon]

I mentioned this earlier, that I have no problem with accepting that India might have been the richest country in the world a thousand years ago, this theory seems to be put about a lot on these forums, but problem is it hasn't carried over to modern times. So does it still count as a legacy?

What most people outside of India think of when they think of legacy, is Yoga, Kama Sutra and curry. There is the Taj Mahal of course, but many Indians don't want to claim it because it was part of the Mughal empire. But I believe the Mughal Empire was part of India's most glorious period, if they would own it and cherish it more, it could indeed be part of a lasting legacy. The Mughal reign was very much Indian flavoured, not some sort of foreign entity which some like to portray it.

There is nothing glorious about the Mughal legacy. They were more interested in having hundred course meals and developing different types of biryani than focusing on scientific and technological advancements.

While they were eating gulab jamun, Europe was undergoing The Renaissance. At the same time, the Ottomans banned the printing press, effectively giving birth to Muslim intellectual bankruptcy that has haunted us for over 600 years now.

The indulgence in worldly pleasures was a major reason why the British were able to overthrow the Mughals who offered little resistance.

India’s golden age was the Gupta Empire and that is the true legacy of the Hindu civilization. They made great advancements in maths, science, astrology and also invented the chess.

Meanwhile, the muslims of the subcontinent have disassociated themselves from their Hindu past and take pride in foreign plunderers and looters like Bin Qasim and Mahmud of Ghazni, as if their ancestors came to India along side the Arab and Turkish invaders and didn’t embrace Islam under duress.

 

[Technics 1210]

1. Years where people were forced to live like a second class citizen.
2. Lives of jalianwala bagh massacre.
3. Lost generations who were forced to fight for basic rights instead of pursuing education to bring India ahead.

This includes not only current India, but Pakistan and Bangladesh too.

That's not loot. Trillions of loot is mentioned, so where is it?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There is nothing glorious about the Mughal legacy. They were more interested in having hundred course meals and developing different types of biryani than focusing on scientific and technological advancements.

While they were eating gulab jamun, Europe was undergoing The Renaissance. At the same time, the Ottomans banned the printing press, effectively giving birth to Muslim intellectual bankruptcy that has haunted us for over 600 years now.

The indulgence in worldly pleasures was a major reason why the British were able to overthrow the Mughals who offered little resistance.

India’s golden age was the Gupta Empire and that is the true legacy of the Hindu civilization. They made great advancements in maths, science, astrology and also invented the chess.

Meanwhile, the muslims of the subcontinent have disassociated themselves from their Hindu past and take pride in foreign plunderers and looters like Bin Qasim and Mahmud of Ghazni, as if their ancestors came to India along side the Arab and Turkish invaders and didn’t embrace Islam under duress.

If Mughals were so lazy and feckless, how on earth did they come to rule over the scientifically advanced Hindu empire to begin with? Were all the magnificent forts and palaces in fact former temples which Mughals just took over like opportunistic squatters?

What you say makes little sense. Why would the Gupta Empire just allow a bunch of illiterate foreigners munching on gulab jamans walk in and take over their domain?

 

[Mamoon]

If Mughals were so lazy and feckless, how on earth did they come to rule over the scientifically advanced Hindu empire to begin with? Were all the magnificent forts and palaces in fact former temples which Mughals just took over like opportunistic squatters?

What you say makes little sense. Why would the Gupta Empire just allow a bunch of illiterate foreigners munching on gulab jamans walk in and take over their domain?

The Gupta Empire ended in the 6th century while the Mughal Empire started in the 16th century. The Mughals actually took over from another Muslim dynasty.

Empires fall or morph into other empires. Even countries that have never been colonized have had different dynasties as well, so an empire/dynasty should not be judged by why and how it fell but rather on their contributions.

The Mughals contributed very little in comparison to the Guptas. In fact, no dynasty in India has achieved as much as the Guptas, which is why most historians consider it as the golden age of India.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The Gupta Empire ended in the 6th century while the Mughal Empire started in the 16th century. The Mughals actually took over from another Muslim dynasty.

Empires fall or morph into other empires. Even countries that have never been colonized have had different dynasties as well, so an empire/dynasty should not be judged by why and how it fell but rather on their contributions.

The Mughals contributed very little in comparison to the Guptas. In fact, no dynasty in India has achieved as much as the Guptas, which is why most historians consider it as the golden age of India.

That sort of makes sense. Back in the 6th century creating a wheelbarrow or a catapult was probably the height of invention. A golden age in context one could surmise.

 

[Mamoon]

The Gupta Empire also stretched into the Eastern half of Pakistan, but we have completely and systematically whitewashed our non-Muslim history and have decided to exclusively glorify Arab and Turkish invaders.

As a result, people in Pakistan have no concept of appreciating its history beyond the invasions of foreign plunderers.

That is why you won’t find any mention of the achievements of the Gupta and Maurya Empires in our Pakistan History textbooks, while Bin Qasim will be awkwardly referred to as the “first Pakistani” on multiple instances.

 

[Mamoon]

That sort of makes sense. Back in the 6th century creating a wheelbarrow or a catapult was probably the height of invention. A golden age in context one could surmise.

They didn’t create the wheelbarrow or the catapult. The former is a Chinese and the latter is a Greek invention. But sure, since you want to discredit the Guptas and glorify the Mughals, you can go along with it.

 

[Swashbuckler]

If Mughals were so lazy and feckless, how on earth did they come to rule over the scientifically advanced Hindu empire to begin with? Were all the magnificent forts and palaces in fact former temples which Mughals just took over like opportunistic squatters?

What you say makes little sense. Why would the Gupta Empire just allow a bunch of illiterate foreigners munching on gulab jamans walk in and take over their domain?

Gupta Empire was between the 4th and 6th century, even before the advent of Islam. It was the golden age of this region, intellectually.

Regarding your previous post Mughal empire was an important empire with great administrative and architectural achievements. Indians shouldn't disown it, Babur may have come from Uzbekistan but after him they were born in India, many had Rajput mothers. They chose to live and die in India, under them we were economically in a good state, IMO they were as Indian as can be possible, irrespective of what the BJP/RSS donkeys say. I wouldn't call it glorious because to me intellectual legacy surpasses Taj Mahal and cuisine. I am sure you would agree with that, look at the West these last 500 years.

Islamic world had great empires in the medieval ages, great mosques and forts, famous military victories etc but to me the best legacy will always be the Islamic Golden Age which ended with the siege of Baghdad in 1258. That was the period when the Islamic world was a major hub of knowledge (maths, science, astronomy, philosophy, medicine, literature all of these), likewise in India's case for me the most glorious age will the Gupta age. If you talk about inventions and discoveries in India that is the period you should look at. I think that is the point [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] is trying to make.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

They didn’t create the wheelbarrow or the catapult. The former is a Chinese and the latter is a Greek invention. But sure, since you want to discredit the Guptas and glorify the Mughals, you can go along with it.

Don't be such a drama queen, I don't want to discredit the Gupta Empire any more than you want to discredit the Mughal one. One's legacy is more visibly impactful, the other one less apparent. It's as simple as that.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Gupta Empire was between the 4th and 6th century, even before the advent of Islam. It was the golden age of this region, intellectually.

Regarding your previous post Mughal empire was an important empire with great administrative and architectural achievements. Indians shouldn't disown it, Babur may have come from Uzbekistan but after him they were born in India, many had Rajput mothers. They chose to live and die in India, under them we were economically in a good state, IMO they were as Indian as can be possible, irrespective of what the BJP/RSS donkeys say. I wouldn't call it glorious because to me intellectual legacy surpasses Taj Mahal and cuisine. I am sure you would agree with that, look at the West these last 500 years.

Islamic world had great empires in the medieval ages, great mosques and forts, famous military victories etc but to me the best legacy will always be the Islamic Golden Age which ended with the siege of Baghdad in 1258. That was the period when the Islamic world was a major hub of knowledge (maths, science, astronomy, philosophy, medicine, literature all of these), likewise in India's case for me the most glorious age will the Gupta age. If you talk about inventions and discoveries in India that is the period you should look at. I think that is the point [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] is trying to make.

Excellent post and a very enlightening one. We don't see or hear much about the Gupta Empire much in the west, whereas the Mughal one is still very fresh, possibly because the British competed directly with the Mughals over what we now call India.

Also Gupta empire was such a long time ago, seems a shame that we don't hear more about their history. Possibly not much left of that civilisation in physical terms which would put down a marker, like the great Pyramids of Egypt for example.

Perhaps you could contribute some highlights of Guta Empire which we could record as legacy here. Surely this thread would be as good a place for it as any.

 

[Mamoon]

Don't be such a drama queen, I don't want to discredit the Gupta Empire any more than you want to discredit the Mughal one. One's legacy is more visibly impactful, the other one less apparent. It's as simple as that.

The only drama is this thread. You are clearly not interested in having a genuine discourse over the contributions of the Indian empires.

This thread is a veiled attempt to state that India has no identity of its own beyond the invasions of Muslim conquerors, and it didn’t take you long to assert that the Mughals oversaw the most glorious period of Indian history which is absurd.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The only drama is this thread. You are clearly not interested in having a genuine discourse over the contributions of the Indian empires.

This thread is a veiled attempt to state that India has no identity of its own beyond the invasions of Muslim conquerors, and it didn’t take you long to assert that the Mughals oversaw the most glorious period of Indian history which is absurd.

What a shame for you that my response above this post has made your views look even more bizarre. Maybe if you could post sensibly like our Indian friend Swashbuckler and not indulge in hyperbolic trolling, then a sensible debate could ensue. Look at his post and compare it to your rant, then see if you can learn from it. Assuming you want to of course.

 

[Mamoon]

What a shame for you that my response above this post has made your views look even more bizarre. Maybe if you could post sensibly like our Indian friend Swashbuckler and not indulge in hyperbolic trolling, then a sensible debate could ensue. Look at his post and compare it to your rant, then see if you can learn from it. Assuming you want to of course.

He may not sense the mock in your tone but I do. It is very obvious what you are trying to do here. This is clearly not a genuine attempt to learn about Indian civilizations. As I said in my first post, this is in poor taste. Unfortunately, I took the bait even though I said I wouldn’t.

 

[Technics 1210]

Another feeble attempt at discrediting anything to do with Islam has gone Pete Tong for our resident troll.

 

[Technics 1210]

What a shame for you that my response above this post has made your views look even more bizarre. Maybe if you could post sensibly like our Indian friend Swashbuckler and not indulge in hyperbolic trolling, then a sensible debate could ensue. Look at his post and compare it to your rant, then see if you can learn from it. Assuming you want to of course.

Indeed, history should be objective, and not subjective. Most of his posts are euphemisms of hate and bias.

 

[Swashbuckler]

That sort of makes sense. Back in the 6th century creating a wheelbarrow or a catapult was probably the height of invention. A golden age in context one could surmise.

If you talk about that era (6th-7th century India) there are at least 2 mathematicians who will be counted among the greatest ever in that highly competitive field. By greatest ever I mean in the same breath as Gauss, Newton, Euler, Ramanujan, Fermat.

Aryabhata
Brahmagupta

Even Panini (1000 years before the Guptas, from Gandhara, modern day Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]) wasn't just a grammarian

Fast forward to 12th century and we also have Madhava and Bhaskaracharya.

Their inventions weren't trivial, legends like Gauss, Galois, Leibniz have taken inspiration from their body of work, carried forward their mathematical theorems and methods.

These weren't the only ancient mathematicians, we can not underplay the significance of scholars from that era just because some University professor can crack them today, today's greats stand on the shoulders of giants of that era.

Chess (Chaturanga) was invented in the Guptan age, but the game has evolved and become almost unrecognizable today. Doesn't mean we underrate the pioneers. What if I told you there were puzzles which couldn't be solved by the best of humanity for 1000 years? Since I was talking about the Islamic Golden Age in my previous post a while back allow me to present an interesting piece of information. A few years ago I came across the profile of an Arab (or Persian/Turkic, unsure of origin) chess player from the 9th century, Abu Bakr bin Yahya al-Suli who was employed in the services of the Caliph of Baghdad. A legendary player of shatranj (different rules compared to modern day chess) in that era who used to give blindfold simuls. He wrote the Kitab Al-Shitranj dealing with chess strategy and one of the more important historical sources on the early history of chess. It had a problem known as 'Al-Suli’s Diamond', a puzzle that went unsolved for more than 1000 years. The problem was cracked by Soviet GM Yuri Averbakh in the 1980s. And this wasn't the only such puzzle which eluded many for centuries, there are other examples from other empires including Indian ones. If you give me a choice to live a princely life in the Mughal era or as a commoner in the services of Al-Suli I would choose the latter, that is the kind of legacy that attracts me.

Similarly in mathematics quite a few inventions made in 6th century engaged the best of minds for over a millennium. Today those concepts are covered in UG maths courses or even high school (eg Archimedes, Euclid) but that doesn't diminish the greatness of our predecessors who didn't have tools and knowledge base we have today a button click away.

 

[Technics 1210]

If you talk about that era (6th-7th century India) there are at least 2 mathematicians who will be counted among the greatest ever in that highly competitive field. By greatest ever I mean in the same breath as Gauss, Newton, Euler, Ramanujan, Fermat.

Aryabhata
Brahmagupta

Even Panini (1000 years before the Guptas, from Gandhara, modern day Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]) wasn't just a grammarian

Fast forward to 12th century and we also have Madhava and Bhaskaracharya.

Their inventions weren't trivial, legends like Gauss, Galois, Leibniz have taken inspiration from their body of work, carried forward their mathematical theorems and methods.

These weren't the only ancient mathematicians, we can not underplay the significance of scholars from that era just because some University professor can crack them today, today's greats stand on the shoulders of giants of that era.

Chess (Chaturanga) was invented in the Guptan age, but the game has evolved and become almost unrecognizable today. Doesn't mean we underrate the pioneers. What if I told you there were puzzles which couldn't be solved by the best of humanity for 1000 years? Since I was talking about the Islamic Golden Age in my previous post a while back allow me to present an interesting piece of information. A few years ago I came across the profile of an Arab (or Persian/Turkic, unsure of origin) chess player from the 9th century, Abu Bakr bin Yahya al-Suli who was employed in the services of the Caliph of Baghdad. A legendary player of shatranj (different rules compared to modern day chess) in that era who used to give blindfold simuls. He wrote the Kitab Al-Shitranj dealing with chess strategy and one of the more important historical sources on the early history of chess. It had a problem known as 'Al-Suli’s Diamond', a puzzle that went unsolved for more than 1000 years. The problem was cracked by Soviet GM Yuri Averbakh in the 1980s. And this wasn't the only such puzzle which eluded many for centuries, there are other examples from other empires including Indian ones. If you give me a choice to live a princely life in the Mughal era or as a commoner in the services of Al-Suli I would choose the latter, that is the kind of legacy that attracts me.

Similarly in mathematics quite a few inventions made in 6th century engaged the best of minds for over a millennium. Today those concepts are covered in UG maths courses or even high school (eg Archimedes, Euclid) but that doesn't diminish the greatness of our predecessors who didn't have tools and knowledge base we have today a button click away.

Informative post, well done!

Though I would say that mathematics are not invented, but discovered.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

He may not sense the mock in your tone but I do. It is very obvious what you are trying to do here. This is clearly not a genuine attempt to learn about Indian civilizations. As I said in my first post, this is in poor taste. Unfortunately, I took the bait even though I said I wouldn’t.

Well feel free to stay out of the debate hereon then, your one sided attempts to discredit great civilisations which were admired throughout the world just makes it clear you have no objectivity in this thread. Probably why you couldn't resist pitching in with your RSS drivel as a self confessed Modi admirer.