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What is the basis for human knowledge, aqal or wahee?
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Badsha
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"send of making sense of things".
And who gave you that sense?
And who gave you that sense?
dhump
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You dont wanna go this route trust me.
Dear Badsha, we will will get there but first thing first, What is primary origin of human knowledge. It is not wahee or is it? I think it is aqal not wahee.
regards and all the best
why not dear dhump? This thread is hopefully going to decide for good what islam is all about.
It will be a good experience for people to participate in this thread because it will bring up things which people usually do not think about.
regards and all the best.
Robert
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I would argue: 3.5 billion years of evolution, culminating in massive growth of the brain areas which allow language to develop, and thereby conceptualisation skills resulting in philosophy and (in particular) empiricism.
Dear friends, there is no argument that aqal is basis for all human knowledge because having sense of making sense of things is basis for everything else that man can think and do.
If we think about it and question it, where does our basic, primary or foundational knowledge come from? To begin with our senses give our brains windows to the outside world. This acts as stimulus for brain to receive information and process and store it and recall it as and when need be. The brain itself needs a lot of training when it comes to learning skills. This is why a baby cannot use his senses right away but takes time by trying to use them till he becomes skilled over a long period of time. Then baby learns to use his body parts eg hands and feet etc etc. He has to learn how to sit up, how to stand and walk and talk etc etc. This is why children are only sent to schools when they have become capable of learning from schools. You do not send them right away to universities to get education. However we sent them to schools hoping one day they will have learned enough to go to universities. Likewise we do not send them out to work because they do not have skills to do that either. So it should be clear that learning takes ages before one could actually employ one's skill for the purpose one has learned them. One day a baby becomes so learned that he can do amazing things ie he can reach the moon. Allah has placed huge potential in mankind to actualise it through learning an doing things. This is how man makes Allah look great. It is because man is his masterpiece ie Allah has created nothing better than man. If we talk rubbish about man, we degrade Allah himself without realising it. This world is created by Allah for mankind and such verses are repeated in the Quran. Allah has given the universe under the control of mankind to do with it as they like just like all the other things that man is using for his purposes eg donkeys, camels, cattle, gold, silver etc etc. However man also has been created for a set purpose and that is long way away yet from being fulfilled by mankind. All this is in the Quran if we could prepare ourselves to read the Quran and understand it properly. People can only understand information to the stage they have developed themselves biologically, psychologically and sociologically etc etc. This is why not only that we cannot understand the Quran till we learn how to do that but nothing else either. Can you build a bike or a car or a house without learning how to do it? No. Likewise all sorts of knowledge needs skills for making sense of it and using it for its purpose. So the divine revelation ie the Quran is not an exception.
This should explain to people why sir syed was right in pushing for aqal based interpretation of the quran and the rest of islamic sources of knowledge. I read his interpretation 50 + years ago and rejected it and due to mullahs' propaganda as we all know it I also did not like what parwez wrote about the quran. However as I grew up mentally I started my own research and exploration and as I went on in time I found what was right way to approach understanding of the quran.
The way to understand the quran is use aqal to make sense of the quran but this aqal has to be aqal needed for understanding the level of information that is found in the quran. You see if you gave the quran in the hands of a baby and told him it is book of God so treat it sensibly. He has no idea and will take it, tear its pages and start putting them in his mouth. So you will end up with a damaged copy of the quran.
What I am saying is that level of information given needs to wait for the recipient to grow up and be able to make sense of it. Otherwise it is like loading a donkey with loads of books and burying it under them.
This is the reason Allah created the world by setting up processes, systems, mechanisms and laws etc etc and gave it time to unfold. As mankind came about from the very same tree of life as other living creatures and learned sense in time only then Allah revealed to them his guidance because by that time one of them was able to make sense of it and teach it to others. In the quranic context there have been more than one aadams. One from which humanity branched off as a new species, the other who became human through learning and received revelation.
The verses in surah baqrah are not about creation of adam but about assigning him some task to bring humanity out of bloodshed by forming a proper human community and thereby bringing about a kingdom based on guidance of Allah.
Word malaaikah here is used for tribal chiefs at the time and word sajdah is used in context of, all of you submit to my program, constitution and law together if you want to get rid of way of life based upon laws of nature. People can either live by laws of nature or by laws given to mankind for overcoming laws of nature.
Laws of nature use mankind and laws given for guidance of mankind by Allah help him use laws of nature and rest of universe to his own advantage. So man has the choice to go by either way he wants.
Take word SHUKR for example, we generally take it to mean thanks. We never think about things to try to understand them for their purpose. For example, Allah has given us brains and senses and bodies and told us the purpose in form of setting for us some goals to achieve. What is purpose of brain? Are we using it for that purpose? What is purpose of our senses? Are we using them for that purpose? What is purposes of our bodies? Are we using them for that purpose? Allah has created this universe for us and we are told about it in the quran repeatedly? Are we at all bothered with finding out what purpose can we use the universe and all that is in it for? Are we therefore really grateful to Allah for all this?
Now make sense of word SHUKR in that context. It means to use provision for the purpose they are provided for by Allah. Now the questions, are we using our brains for the purpose they are given? Is that appreciation of gifts of Allah or not? Can we really appreciate gifts of Allah by misusing them?
Now see the implications of this ie we are saying by our mouths thanks Allah but we are at the same time misusing things he gave us. Are we then not lying to ourselves and Allah?
More than that are we studying the quran for what it is given for to us as a gift. Is this gift least of gifts or most of them?
So time for us all to put our thinking caps on and show that we are human beings not animals. In the quran we read such verses which tell us we are born ignorant but with brains and senses, why? See 7/179, 16/78, 22/46, 23/78 etc. It is because we are supposed to learn through direct experiences in time. What does that tell us? That Allah has set up things to evolve from a simple state of existence to most sophisticated they can be. A clear proof that evolution is a fact. Not only that but Allah also condemns those people as animals who do not use their brains and senses to learn things they are supposed to learn by using them. Again a clear proof that revelation is not the basis for human learning but just a guidance once people have learned enough to make sense of it.
Both the quran and real world realities agree perfectly that basis for human knowledge is sense of making sense of things. Revelation is secondary to aqal. This is why Allah appeals to sensible people among mankind repeatedly for judging the truth about the quran and not to stupid people who are at the level of animals in their thinking level.
regards and all the best.
If we think about it and question it, where does our basic, primary or foundational knowledge come from? To begin with our senses give our brains windows to the outside world. This acts as stimulus for brain to receive information and process and store it and recall it as and when need be. The brain itself needs a lot of training when it comes to learning skills. This is why a baby cannot use his senses right away but takes time by trying to use them till he becomes skilled over a long period of time. Then baby learns to use his body parts eg hands and feet etc etc. He has to learn how to sit up, how to stand and walk and talk etc etc. This is why children are only sent to schools when they have become capable of learning from schools. You do not send them right away to universities to get education. However we sent them to schools hoping one day they will have learned enough to go to universities. Likewise we do not send them out to work because they do not have skills to do that either. So it should be clear that learning takes ages before one could actually employ one's skill for the purpose one has learned them. One day a baby becomes so learned that he can do amazing things ie he can reach the moon. Allah has placed huge potential in mankind to actualise it through learning an doing things. This is how man makes Allah look great. It is because man is his masterpiece ie Allah has created nothing better than man. If we talk rubbish about man, we degrade Allah himself without realising it. This world is created by Allah for mankind and such verses are repeated in the Quran. Allah has given the universe under the control of mankind to do with it as they like just like all the other things that man is using for his purposes eg donkeys, camels, cattle, gold, silver etc etc. However man also has been created for a set purpose and that is long way away yet from being fulfilled by mankind. All this is in the Quran if we could prepare ourselves to read the Quran and understand it properly. People can only understand information to the stage they have developed themselves biologically, psychologically and sociologically etc etc. This is why not only that we cannot understand the Quran till we learn how to do that but nothing else either. Can you build a bike or a car or a house without learning how to do it? No. Likewise all sorts of knowledge needs skills for making sense of it and using it for its purpose. So the divine revelation ie the Quran is not an exception.
This should explain to people why sir syed was right in pushing for aqal based interpretation of the quran and the rest of islamic sources of knowledge. I read his interpretation 50 + years ago and rejected it and due to mullahs' propaganda as we all know it I also did not like what parwez wrote about the quran. However as I grew up mentally I started my own research and exploration and as I went on in time I found what was right way to approach understanding of the quran.
The way to understand the quran is use aqal to make sense of the quran but this aqal has to be aqal needed for understanding the level of information that is found in the quran. You see if you gave the quran in the hands of a baby and told him it is book of God so treat it sensibly. He has no idea and will take it, tear its pages and start putting them in his mouth. So you will end up with a damaged copy of the quran.
What I am saying is that level of information given needs to wait for the recipient to grow up and be able to make sense of it. Otherwise it is like loading a donkey with loads of books and burying it under them.
This is the reason Allah created the world by setting up processes, systems, mechanisms and laws etc etc and gave it time to unfold. As mankind came about from the very same tree of life as other living creatures and learned sense in time only then Allah revealed to them his guidance because by that time one of them was able to make sense of it and teach it to others. In the quranic context there have been more than one aadams. One from which humanity branched off as a new species, the other who became human through learning and received revelation.
The verses in surah baqrah are not about creation of adam but about assigning him some task to bring humanity out of bloodshed by forming a proper human community and thereby bringing about a kingdom based on guidance of Allah.
Word malaaikah here is used for tribal chiefs at the time and word sajdah is used in context of, all of you submit to my program, constitution and law together if you want to get rid of way of life based upon laws of nature. People can either live by laws of nature or by laws given to mankind for overcoming laws of nature.
Laws of nature use mankind and laws given for guidance of mankind by Allah help him use laws of nature and rest of universe to his own advantage. So man has the choice to go by either way he wants.
Take word SHUKR for example, we generally take it to mean thanks. We never think about things to try to understand them for their purpose. For example, Allah has given us brains and senses and bodies and told us the purpose in form of setting for us some goals to achieve. What is purpose of brain? Are we using it for that purpose? What is purpose of our senses? Are we using them for that purpose? What is purposes of our bodies? Are we using them for that purpose? Allah has created this universe for us and we are told about it in the quran repeatedly? Are we at all bothered with finding out what purpose can we use the universe and all that is in it for? Are we therefore really grateful to Allah for all this?
Now make sense of word SHUKR in that context. It means to use provision for the purpose they are provided for by Allah. Now the questions, are we using our brains for the purpose they are given? Is that appreciation of gifts of Allah or not? Can we really appreciate gifts of Allah by misusing them?
Now see the implications of this ie we are saying by our mouths thanks Allah but we are at the same time misusing things he gave us. Are we then not lying to ourselves and Allah?
More than that are we studying the quran for what it is given for to us as a gift. Is this gift least of gifts or most of them?
So time for us all to put our thinking caps on and show that we are human beings not animals. In the quran we read such verses which tell us we are born ignorant but with brains and senses, why? See 7/179, 16/78, 22/46, 23/78 etc. It is because we are supposed to learn through direct experiences in time. What does that tell us? That Allah has set up things to evolve from a simple state of existence to most sophisticated they can be. A clear proof that evolution is a fact. Not only that but Allah also condemns those people as animals who do not use their brains and senses to learn things they are supposed to learn by using them. Again a clear proof that revelation is not the basis for human learning but just a guidance once people have learned enough to make sense of it.
Both the quran and real world realities agree perfectly that basis for human knowledge is sense of making sense of things. Revelation is secondary to aqal. This is why Allah appeals to sensible people among mankind repeatedly for judging the truth about the quran and not to stupid people who are at the level of animals in their thinking level.
regards and all the best.
itsme
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What is the more important in human is self awareness who is a resultant of brain,aqal.
And wahee is create by human aqal.
And wahee is create by human aqal.
Badsha
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And who started that evolution?
Dear friends, coming to common terms is told by Allah in the quran.
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/3/64/default.htm
the origin of human knowledge is also told about in the quran.
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/16/78/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/23/78/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/67/23/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/25/44/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/2/78/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/22/46/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/10/36/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/62/5/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/22/3/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/7/179/default.htm
and many more verses.
truth has come and falsehood is to perish or falsehood cannot replace the truth etc.
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/34/49/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/17/81/default.htm
besides verses like these there are many verses which tell mankind to observe universal realities and learn lessons from them. Not only that there are verses that are keep appealing to people who have learned sense to see if this quran is from Allah or not.
In each and every place the quran condemns those who do not use their God given brains and senses to learn and do thing for their own betterment.
Such verses or not odd, just one or two but hundreds spread throughout the quran.
Why an ignorant, illiterate and uneducated person will write such verses in the quran and which book in the world has such verses in it that muhammad could have copied them from those?
The quran constantly invites mankind to observe things and think. A book that wants to educate people out of their ignorance how can it mislead people? Even if there is something that gives us some cause for concern we should investigate it to see if it is the book that is saying it or is it because someone has masked its message for some reason by way of misinterpretation and misrepresentation. This is what the book tells us within itself. The author of the book already knew people pervert messages and use them as a tool to use and abuse each other using the name of God.
The main point made here is that the quran does not tell people it is me you should follow blindly instead it gives primary place to sense of making sense of things and then appeals to mankind look at the information it contains and then see what conclusion you reach.
In other words the quran provides mankind with intellectual basis to judge things including the quran. If the quran stands on intellectual basis through construction and deconstruction and reconstruction process only then it becomes authority for mankind to live by.
Have we got any book that is of similar nature to the quran in the world today?
This is why no man is authority on the quran unless one properly understands the quran. Anyone who claims to be authority on the quran will be found out by depth and width of his knowledge. This shows mullahs are no authority on the quran because they never had sufficient knowledge to interpret the quran properly. To understand divine knowledge one has to have intellectual capacity and capability. Baby minded people talking about the quran be they muslims or nonmuslims can only look funny talking about the quran.
It is like a kid from a primary school giving lectures to phds. That is why it is fun listening to such people.
regards and all the best
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/3/64/default.htm
the origin of human knowledge is also told about in the quran.
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/16/78/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/23/78/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/67/23/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/25/44/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/2/78/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/22/46/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/10/36/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/62/5/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/22/3/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/7/179/default.htm
and many more verses.
truth has come and falsehood is to perish or falsehood cannot replace the truth etc.
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/34/49/default.htm
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/17/81/default.htm
besides verses like these there are many verses which tell mankind to observe universal realities and learn lessons from them. Not only that there are verses that are keep appealing to people who have learned sense to see if this quran is from Allah or not.
In each and every place the quran condemns those who do not use their God given brains and senses to learn and do thing for their own betterment.
Such verses or not odd, just one or two but hundreds spread throughout the quran.
Why an ignorant, illiterate and uneducated person will write such verses in the quran and which book in the world has such verses in it that muhammad could have copied them from those?
The quran constantly invites mankind to observe things and think. A book that wants to educate people out of their ignorance how can it mislead people? Even if there is something that gives us some cause for concern we should investigate it to see if it is the book that is saying it or is it because someone has masked its message for some reason by way of misinterpretation and misrepresentation. This is what the book tells us within itself. The author of the book already knew people pervert messages and use them as a tool to use and abuse each other using the name of God.
The main point made here is that the quran does not tell people it is me you should follow blindly instead it gives primary place to sense of making sense of things and then appeals to mankind look at the information it contains and then see what conclusion you reach.
In other words the quran provides mankind with intellectual basis to judge things including the quran. If the quran stands on intellectual basis through construction and deconstruction and reconstruction process only then it becomes authority for mankind to live by.
Have we got any book that is of similar nature to the quran in the world today?
This is why no man is authority on the quran unless one properly understands the quran. Anyone who claims to be authority on the quran will be found out by depth and width of his knowledge. This shows mullahs are no authority on the quran because they never had sufficient knowledge to interpret the quran properly. To understand divine knowledge one has to have intellectual capacity and capability. Baby minded people talking about the quran be they muslims or nonmuslims can only look funny talking about the quran.
It is like a kid from a primary school giving lectures to phds. That is why it is fun listening to such people.
regards and all the best
Indiafan
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No one, it happened by chance. If things had changed, we would have had different kind of life
We will first need a debate about the definition of "Knowledge" first.
To me knowledge is about being able to understand a concept enough to make a "valid" prediction. Here "valid" means the prediction has to be demonstrable and accepted by all.
As far as science is concerned, "Logic" is at the heart of it. I think it was Aristotle who described it with his syllogisms. It goes something like "The basics of logic are accepted and the rules are accepted. Therefore any conclusions from it have to accepted as well"
Falsifiability is another important concept to truly test the state of knowledge. Karl Popper was a great proponent of it... I guess many would know so I don't need to describe
To me knowledge is about being able to understand a concept enough to make a "valid" prediction. Here "valid" means the prediction has to be demonstrable and accepted by all.
As far as science is concerned, "Logic" is at the heart of it. I think it was Aristotle who described it with his syllogisms. It goes something like "The basics of logic are accepted and the rules are accepted. Therefore any conclusions from it have to accepted as well"
Falsifiability is another important concept to truly test the state of knowledge. Karl Popper was a great proponent of it... I guess many would know so I don't need to describe
If revelation was about some testable phenomena like a theory of gravity or special relativity, it could have been accepted as "pure" knowledge. However most of revelation is about foretelling the future, about ethical principles (known at the time) and an unverifiable answer about the reality of the universe.
Essentially everything is knowledge. Every new concept, every book etc. But true or pure knowledge is something which stands the test of time and is independent of context. Only Science qualifies because even an intelligent Alien would come up with the same set of Chemistry and Physics etc. (Notation would be different but that doesn't matter)
Essentially everything is knowledge. Every new concept, every book etc. But true or pure knowledge is something which stands the test of time and is independent of context. Only Science qualifies because even an intelligent Alien would come up with the same set of Chemistry and Physics etc. (Notation would be different but that doesn't matter)
Crazy_K
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Always with the loaded question.
You are already convinced there has to be a creator and are now working to prove that.
Why does there have to be a thing intervening?
Dear friends, primary knowledge is simply put a process involving information received through senses and processed by the brain and stored and then recalled as and when needed.
This information is processed and separated into different categories eg complete or incomplete, sensible or not sensible yet etc by way of construction and deconstruction and reconstruction. The idea is to come up with an internal model or context to see if it fits or not or is consistence or not.
Mind keeps manipulating it till it fits fine or if it cannot find any way to fit it then ignores it for the time being till more information is available to solve this problem later. Depending on how important it is for mind to solve this puzzle.
Information only becomes knowledge when mind can explain it within itself satisfactorily. After that it is time to share it with others to see if one got the things right or there is still some problem that one did not notice oneself.
Once we have the best possible explanation about something then that is true till there arises some problem with it at some other time for some other reason. The process of reasoning is repeated each time there is change to readjust everything to fit it together again.
The whole things rest on idea of construct which gives it sense and a context. It is because nothing can make any sense without context. This is why till we have some sort of context to look at things we cannot make any sense of them whatsoever.
regards and all the best.
This information is processed and separated into different categories eg complete or incomplete, sensible or not sensible yet etc by way of construction and deconstruction and reconstruction. The idea is to come up with an internal model or context to see if it fits or not or is consistence or not.
Mind keeps manipulating it till it fits fine or if it cannot find any way to fit it then ignores it for the time being till more information is available to solve this problem later. Depending on how important it is for mind to solve this puzzle.
Information only becomes knowledge when mind can explain it within itself satisfactorily. After that it is time to share it with others to see if one got the things right or there is still some problem that one did not notice oneself.
Once we have the best possible explanation about something then that is true till there arises some problem with it at some other time for some other reason. The process of reasoning is repeated each time there is change to readjust everything to fit it together again.
The whole things rest on idea of construct which gives it sense and a context. It is because nothing can make any sense without context. This is why till we have some sort of context to look at things we cannot make any sense of them whatsoever.
regards and all the best.
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What if a delusional mind justifies his/her made-up ideas? You next sentence however seems more accurate i.e. only after sharing it and testing can we conclude it as some sort of knowledge
Testing is important because the group as a whole can be delusional for e.g. relativistic theories and quantum mechanics
Badsha
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Well if we're going to think all scientific here, that was one big chance that is having everything unfold so perfectly.
itsme
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What you means is its sure someone started that evolution,because all existing thing need a creator?
Robert
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Maybe somebody did, but to my mind a Creator is not necessary for the universe to exist the way that it does.
The more I learn, the less likely a Creator becomes in my mind.
Robert
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That is merely the illusion of perfection.
itsme
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But this picture aside I get what you mean by illusion of perfection.... tbh I can't convince you otherwise.
I too think even if a creator exist ,'god' (i mean by that human created god) doesn't exist nor his concept(worship,hell,heaven,imortality,..) the 'creator' don't interfere,care or whatever with us.
Badsha your meanig is human and every existing thing need and have a 'creator' so the 'creator' exist.But by that logic if the 'creator1' exist he himself need a 'creator' we gonna call him the 'creator2' but after that creator2 exist so he need a creator too who gonna be creator3,this gonna continue to infinity,this is interminable.
Dear friends, it is clear so far that aqal is primary basis of human knowledge. If aqal is primary basis for knowledge then anything that is again aqal is not knowledge.
It takes us to concept of divine revelation. Anything we claim is from God has to be logical and rational or reason based and that line of reasoning has to be the best possible. This is where we get the idea of best possible explanation.
Let us first deal with existence of God. It is best possible reasonable line of reasoning to think that God always was and always will be. Why? Because created things have beginning and if each and every existing thing needs a creator then this reasoning fails. Why? Because thing that needs creator cannot come into existence unless its creator is there before its existence. In other words unless father is already there son cannot be there. Now father cannot be there unless grandfather is there already and grandfather cannot be there unless great grandfather is already there. The question is, how can son be there if father is not there? How can creation be there if the creator is not already there?
Because the son is there that is best possible rational proof that father is there and likewise because creation is there that is best possible reasonable proof that creator is already there.
The other reasonable proof is existence of a book that explains perfectly the origin of creation, the purpose of the creation, the way it works and the way it ought to fulfil its set out purpose. How do we explain the existence of such a scripture?
If we could successfully refute these two reasonable best explanations then we are free to do as we please.
The first cause argument is simple and clear enough however the second one needs detailed study of a special scripture.
This scripture is called AL-QUR-AAN.
There have been many scholars in the world who have studied the quran but not many have been able to study it properly.
The proof has been stated already if you see my above posts. The quran talks about importance of observation of universal realities and drawing lessons from them and then doing things for the benefit of mankind.
How many mullahs you have come across in your lives who have interpreted the quran in this context? The question is, why people did not interpret and represented the quran properly to mankind?
Although I have studied the quran for a very long time but only recently I have tried to explain it the way I understood the quran. My work on the quran is still in progress.
You will come to realise that such a work on the quran has not been undertaken by many people for various reasons and yuo will come to know that even within first two surahs.
My reason for producing this work was so that people could use it as a basis for their arguments to come to know the truth.
regards and all the best.
It takes us to concept of divine revelation. Anything we claim is from God has to be logical and rational or reason based and that line of reasoning has to be the best possible. This is where we get the idea of best possible explanation.
Let us first deal with existence of God. It is best possible reasonable line of reasoning to think that God always was and always will be. Why? Because created things have beginning and if each and every existing thing needs a creator then this reasoning fails. Why? Because thing that needs creator cannot come into existence unless its creator is there before its existence. In other words unless father is already there son cannot be there. Now father cannot be there unless grandfather is there already and grandfather cannot be there unless great grandfather is already there. The question is, how can son be there if father is not there? How can creation be there if the creator is not already there?
Because the son is there that is best possible rational proof that father is there and likewise because creation is there that is best possible reasonable proof that creator is already there.
The other reasonable proof is existence of a book that explains perfectly the origin of creation, the purpose of the creation, the way it works and the way it ought to fulfil its set out purpose. How do we explain the existence of such a scripture?
If we could successfully refute these two reasonable best explanations then we are free to do as we please.
The first cause argument is simple and clear enough however the second one needs detailed study of a special scripture.
This scripture is called AL-QUR-AAN.
There have been many scholars in the world who have studied the quran but not many have been able to study it properly.
The proof has been stated already if you see my above posts. The quran talks about importance of observation of universal realities and drawing lessons from them and then doing things for the benefit of mankind.
How many mullahs you have come across in your lives who have interpreted the quran in this context? The question is, why people did not interpret and represented the quran properly to mankind?
Although I have studied the quran for a very long time but only recently I have tried to explain it the way I understood the quran. My work on the quran is still in progress.
You will come to realise that such a work on the quran has not been undertaken by many people for various reasons and yuo will come to know that even within first two surahs.
My reason for producing this work was so that people could use it as a basis for their arguments to come to know the truth.
regards and all the best.
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Yossarian
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Not disagreeing with any of the above, but how does that explain the fact that, apart from some animals, most living things instinctively know what to do? I mean who teaches insects to build complex structures, or spiders to build webs and then entrap other insects, or teach birds the technical design and construction skills to build some of the most complicated and amazings nests? You dont see newly born insects, birds or most animal species being tought by their parents, or having learning classes.
KB-24
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Wahy is the true basis for knowledge as without it the foundation is corrupt.
KB-24
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Following this logic, did you create yourself? If not then how can the universe do that? Limited and dependent things cannot create themselves. To say they can has no basis in reality.
KB-24
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Badsha
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But there is where the concept of "God" comes. Something our minds can not understand.
"Huwal-'Awwalu wal-' Akhiru waz-' Zahiru wal-'Batin"
He is the first. He is the last. He is the seen. He is the unseen. (roughly translated)
itsme
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No like i said a existing thing always need a creator by yours logic so if your 'god' exist he need himself a creator and so on,that's infinite like i said earlier,if your god have no 'creator thats means he doesn't exist.If you want to stop at 'god' that mean you can stop when you want ( who is incorrect and illogic by that logic),you can stop at human have no creator.
Your concept of god is not 'incomprehensible' it's illogical and incorrect.
Human create religions and'gods',all your monotheist religions are themselve inspire by ancient politheist religions,many(almost all) of monotheist think polytheist stories and gods are myth but they don't even know(or do like they don't) many of their own stories and concept are directly inspire by them.
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Fire Bird
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My understanding
Aqal - Left brained logical thinking, knowledge gathering and understanding, using religious books as a tool
Wahee - Right brained intuitional knowing, relying on divine revelation and gut instinct, relying on the holy spirit (I dont know if you have a similar thing in Islam but what I mean is spirit or voice of God) as a tool
Aqal - Left brained logical thinking, knowledge gathering and understanding, using religious books as a tool
Wahee - Right brained intuitional knowing, relying on divine revelation and gut instinct, relying on the holy spirit (I dont know if you have a similar thing in Islam but what I mean is spirit or voice of God) as a tool
These posts gave me the hope that Mughal will lead us step by step, in the tradition of great buddhist teachers, each answer leading to next question and then the next answer in turn leading us further towards enlightenment.
How disappointing that it didn't take him long to get back to his routine of dumping it all with big statements, large leaps of faith but little new by way of arguments or discussions.
As usual this reasoning of cause and effect breaks down when explaining how the creator came about. Never mind, there is always the' get out of jail' card that he was always there.
Next step, even the best of creators needs raw material. Where did the raw material to create the universe come from. He just wished it and there it was. See how Cause and Effect stops when convenient.
Crazy_K
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Errm there is where you're massively wrong, just because we have life on this planet, don't mistake that for being perfect conditions. Most of the planet is inhabitable for one. There's disease, natural disasters, etc.
The world and how life progressed, evolved, is not perfect, the chances of it occuring naturally don't seem so ridiculous to be honest.
Robert
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We don't know, but not knowing is not evidence for a Creator - it is merely the absence of knowing.
The Big Bang appears to violate the philosophical concept of causality. There was no time before the Bang - at the first Planck time, spacetime was compressed down to a single point - therefore nothing caused the universe.
That thought is unsatisfactory to some, I know. Personally, I find it scary and cool.
akheR
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(Qur'an 2:31-34)
The Quranic epistemological world-view portrays Adam - the archetype of the primal human being - as not only endowed with innate knowledge of the essence of Beings but also, as opposed to Angels, able to memorize them ; traditional commentators have thus put emphasis on the fact that the "superiority" of Adam over the Angels comes from both the former's knowledge and his ability to memorize the flow of chaotic informations, namely to make conceptual connections and theoretical generalizations from disparate and fragmentary ideas.
We could think that such theory is advocating inductive or deductive logic, both pre-modern in shape and who have as main flaws inference from subjective premises, but the Quranic injunctions push us to see the phenomenal world as a web of ayaats (signs or miracles) ; contrarily to ancient metaphysical system who were idealists in nature and had a divine contempt for nature (Christianity holds this view against "the flesh" because it's a Jewish reformulation of neo-Platonism), the Qur'an perennially summons its readers to ponder over the wonders of nature, and there are too many verses to quote here.
That's also why the scientific method could only have been born in the lands of the readers of the Qur'an ; it's only the Islamic civilization which bifurcated chemistry from alchemy and astronomy from astrology - the 'magical' folklore from the empirical realities - and al Haytham, who "invented" experimental physics, could only have been born in a civilization where its Holy Books pushes its admirers to reflect on the created worlds.
I have to say that my cursory, decapitated and perhaps puerile description of the problematic is quite insulting considering the towering tradition of scholarship available in Islam when it comes to metaphysics, logic, ... (even in contemporary Pakistan, there's one Muhammad Faqir Hunzai, and then you have Syed Hossein Nasr in USA to Syed Naquib al-Attas of Malaysia) but I'd say that Islam compels us to use aql' (scientific reasoning) but, at the end, being knowledgeable is being participative of the inner potentials Allah has given to Adam (or mankind) and thus "revealed" ; even if the story might not have happened, the fact that Sir Isaac Newton thought of the universal law of gravitation when an apple hit his head shows his contemplative, Sufi mood, and he perfectly respects the Quranic way of cognizance (al-'aql wa al-wahi.)
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Thank you dear shakil sb, very good point you have raised there.
There are only two modes possible for human thinking, one the constructive and that is what we begin our lives with ie we try to make sense of whatever we see and hear etc etc. The other is destructive mode of thinking ie tearing each and everything apart in such a way that no sense of any sort is left in there any more.
Constructive mode helps us build a house for example and destructive mode helps us pull it apart brick by brick.
Using each of these we try to make sense of things. However the proper use of destructive mode is to deconstruct things for restructuring them in a better way. A seed is destroyed by nature so that a new plant grows out of it and more seeds are produced thereby etc etc. Nature also allows it to decompose and become part of soil again which is recycled etc etc.
The destruction for sake of destruction is not the right way to go about doing things for us human beings because that way we will destroy ourselves and that is not what we want. This is why we cannot be only constructive nor only destructive we need to be purposefully constructive and purposefully destructive. So the question arises, what purpose should we give to our existence or is there any purpose already given to us by our creator?
When we want to find the answer to this question we have no choice but to rely upon our good sense. As you have rightly pointed out that we can be mistaken about things when we begin our search for truth. For example, this world is real or is it that we are just imagining it? How do we test that out?
There are ways to go round that. Let us suppose that we both are in a park and see things. I see a thorny rose plant with beautiful flowers. You tell me just for fun that I don't see any plant there, you must be imagining it in your head. I can go and feel it with my hands, smell its flowers and I see little birds playing on its branches and chirping away and wind is blowing and moving its branches and its leaves make the sound. Yet you keep telling me its all in my head. I take you by hand and make you feel all this and take a thorny branch and jab you with it and you scream loud then I let you go and you still tell me I am just imaging all this even though you are bleeding due to jabbing.
Now even if we are imagining everything, it is still all real for us because we are feeling its pleasures and pains just like in a dream. Is it not still better that we make our dream as pleasant as possible rather than turn it into a nightmare?
How can we turn our dream into a beautiful dream? Not by being destructive and being a negative about things but by being constructive and positive about things.
What atheists do is take a thing and tear it apart into bits and then leave it there and then say, do you see there is nothing there? If we will look at things this way then we are not there, are we? if we kill each other by the thousands and make each other suffer like hell it does not matter because we are only imagining things and we are not really there. Can we see where these like thoughts can lead mankind? Into utter darkness or abyss. This is why we should not take that road and instead take the road that gives us great purpose in life and a beautiful existence.
The study of the quran has given me a lot of things to think about which I can only try to explain as much as I can for others to join in because we are all in this journey together.
It is wrong to read the quran just to condemn mullahs for their lack of understanding of it there is more to the quran than discussing mullahs and their followers and their points of views. People themselves need to get into the quran and see what it really tells about things. if we did that we will see ample proof for its divine origin.
My work on the quran is only the beginning people are going to come to the quran who will have great insight and will be able to present the quran much better. Any idea needs time to develop before it really takes off.
regards and all the best.
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You are a student of history and most likely know a lot more than me, but I think Muslim philosophers and mathematicians took most of the concepts from the Greeks. They did enhance the concepts a lot and develop new technique and what not, but it was still the Greeks who were amongst the first to conceptualize matter and make inferences about it.
More than the religion, I think it is the vastness and strength of the civilization that synergize a group of desperate old ideas into new ones. So big civilizations like the Roman, Islamic (Ottomon, Ummayad) , British and Greek (which was sort of one) civilization germinated new ideas and inventions.
LooneyReturns
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I hope it is Aqal , because if it is wahee and Quran was final , then i have no hope left for mankind .
Well I was only mentioning an example of Solipsism i.e. we cannot be sure of anything except ourselves (I think therefore I am). This essentially means that all other things are uncertain and attaining "true" knowledge is impossible.
Now moving forward, there are some assumptions that we humans do make and spend their lives accordingly like assuming that the Sun is going to rise tomorrow or if I throw a ball in the air, it will come back to earth. This is relatively weak truth, but for all intents and purposes it is the truth, you can throw the ball in the air and watch it come back. Ask any other person to do the same and he will also observe the same.
The third kind of truth is "belief". One can belief that "Money will make him happy" but as far as science is concerned, there is hedonistic treadmill which prevents a state of absolute bliss. Some beliefs can prove to be right (like Pakistan will defeat India in Asia cup) but there is no guarantee. I am generally okay with people believing stuff, but to me absolute truth or any version close to it matters the most.
Well it is up to each person to appreciate the beauty of the universe and its wonders and I think both Atheists and theists are ingrate and pessimistic in their world view.
Also "the road" is different for every person and we all have different versions of paradise in our minds.
Chao and Peace
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Dear Javelin, great insight you have. Allah has created two kinds of things. A)non-living things and b) living things.
Allah has programmed all things through natural interaction but they are programmed to different degrees. Human beings are programmed to the least degree because they are supposed to program themselves to a certain extent.
The reason Allah created all things programmed is so that they are set in ways they work so that human beings could learn from them and use them. If things were not set in ways the way they were then mankind could not predict their behaviour so man could not use them. For example fire not having permanent characteristics would be useless for people. Most of things we have learn all come from observing other things in nature and if Allah did not program things then they could not learn from each other. The quran is full of verses telling mankind to observe things in nature and do thing by learning from them to suit yourself. This is why man was the latest creation of Allah after Allah had put everything in place ready for man to come along and take advantage of already existing things. This idea is not only employed for mankind but other animals as well. Allah used nature to do natural things the natural way.
In the quran we read that Allah created life then from within it Allah created its life support system. This is why food chain had to be this way because each living thing was dependent on other living things for its existence as life became more and more complex and sophisticated. Other things act as toys for mankind to play with them and learn from that and do more highly creative works for which mankind have been created. More detailed explanation will be found in my work on the quran.
The main question is why Allah created man? So that he gets to know Allah by way of his expression through creation and revelation. The whole universe is created for man to use it. The quran explains things in detail what man has yet to accomplish because like a tiny seed with potential to grow in to a huge tree, man is created with huge potential to to show his creativity in form of seeing the creation of Allah throughout the universe. Man is masterpiece of Allah's creation ie the ultimate creature. The day man actualises his full potential that is the day glory of Allah will be seen by man actually shining throughout the universe. Man is what I call a mini god. It will become more and more obvious as man develops and moves more and more in that direction.
Ultimately man will come to realise that when he himself is such huge thing then how great will be his creator who created such a clever little thing that is able to take over the whole of universe one day just like man takes over a donkey or camel or an elephant etc etc.
If you have time please do read through my interpretation of the quran you may get some answer to some question as well as you may raise some more worthwhile questions. This is what learning from each other is all about. We need each other's help because world is not one man show.
regards and all the best.
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itsme
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Yes, animal like we have instinct ,intuition and intelligence(not at the same levels),intuition and instinct are derive from inteligence(aqal).For exemple when some animal provide weather you can say this is their instinct or intuition but what permit them to provide that it their inteligence,they are living in nature since they are born so they can notice almost every little modification and deduct the weather according it.Lot of animal are social,ant and bee for exemple have hierarchy(queen,soldiers,workers...).
The main difference beetween human and animal is their abscence of self-awareness(almost every animal).
Justcrazy
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green&blue
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some golden words of wisdom was once told to me my a very educated person of both religion and worldly texts. They are
'Jahaan aqal ki inteha hai, wahan say wahi ki ibteda hai'
I will never forget these words as they really touched my heart
'Jahaan aqal ki inteha hai, wahan say wahi ki ibteda hai'
I will never forget these words as they really touched my heart
These are true words dear green&blue but in a context and that context is very important to realise for each and every person.
Aqal is judge for something is true or false on basis of whether it is complete or incomplete for its said purpose. To invent things to the degree the quran explains is beyond human aqal and that is why the quran gives us a way of life that aqal cannot work out itself for billions of years yet to come.
When humanity reaches that state of knowledge it will come to know that it has to follow the advice of the quran if it wants to move away from life of terrible painful suffering that people inflict upon each other.
Thanks for sharing this regards and all the best.
mithun_minhas
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If everything needs a Creator as some posters are arguing, then who created The Creator?
How can the Creator just exist without someone Creating the Creator?
How can the Creator just exist without someone Creating the Creator?
Dear mithun minhas, how can the created things exist without a creator? So the possibilities were neither existed or both existed. Since the created things exist therefore it makes logical sense that uncreated creator also exists. The uncreated creator is supposed because otherwise the created cannot exist if there was an infinite chain of creators.
regards and all the best.
Lurker_Ind
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People believe that everything needs a creator as things cannot be this orderly without a creator.
The same people cannot believe that the perfectly organized Creator did not need anyone to create it. It just happened by chance.
The same people cannot believe that the perfectly organized Creator did not need anyone to create it. It just happened by chance.
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The difference between facts and theories.
First of all words fact and theory both have various meanings which depend upon the context of their use or purpose. However in one respect facts are actual objects or things that are detectable with human senses either directly or with help of instruments ie real world realities are facts be they within our own reach or not. In this context theory means explanation that helps make sense of the things or facts or real world realities or objects. In the same context laws are those observed realities which repeatedly happen the same way or are made to happen the same way. It is a matter of if, then and always. Law means a way of doing something or a way of making something happen the same way. For example, if water is poured on the ground then it will flow downhill due to gravity. Since this will happen always therefore we can take it as a rule. If anything consumable is put in the fire then it will burn. Since this will happen always therefore we can take it as a rule.
Coming to theory of evolution. It is not a fact in the sense explained above because it is not a real world reality or an object but an explanation of some observed realities or objects. Whether this explanation is complete or incomplete depends upon facts or objects used in its explanation. The more the number of facts there are the better the explanation of the facts is because the increased quantity of things in the sample helps understand something better just like quality control sampling. The higher the frequency of the samples the more likely that faulty goods will be caught and less likely that faulty goods will escape detection.
Since for Godless explanation of evolution samples so far collected or are available are not sufficient in numbers therefore it is not as good an explanation as is necessary or needed therefore to take it as a something water tight is not right. There are far too many gaps between things which clearly show they do not transform into each other smoothly rather they need more and more intermediary things to go between them. This shows steps or breaks or irregularities which lend support to God based idea of evolution rather than the Godless based idea of evolution. For example, big bang seems to be a controlled inflation of the universe or expansion of the time and space for serving some purpose rather than a random explosion which could have led to chaos instead of the fully functioning universe.
As for evolution based upon divine intervention there is more than sufficient evidence. For example, so many variations in each and every kind of things in ways that cannot be explained any other way than external intervention due to gaps between species of things. More than that the origin of things which did not exist is better explained that way only. That is, a thing which we accept has come into existence had to have a parent or originator otherwise it could not come into being. I am here due to my parents and the chain goes back but it has to stop at some point in time. If this does not stop then that leads us into infinity which is impossible for things that come into existence because before a child thing could come into existence its parent must first have to be there and if parents of parents are not there then how could the child come into existence? This being the case we have no choice but to except that ultimately there is something there which was always there which did not need a creator which brought the non-existing thing or things into being eg the universe and things in it. Since things need to be functional that come about otherwise they cannot survive this means they need designing and planning because allowing things to happen randomly is not going to produce any results regardless of length of time. You can break a glass bottle and let the pieces lie on the ground they will never become a bottle again regardless how long they are left there. This is why saying Godless evolution is a fact is wrong. If God evolved things it still needs a lot of explanations eg what was purpose of God for creating things? How did he create them? How do they work to fulfil his objective? Etc etc. Idea of God can only be eliminated once we have better explanation than the one offered by the allegedly revealed scripture. However first we need to learn enough to understand this scripture that is said to be from God ie the quran.
I blame our human ignorance for lack of our understanding of the allegedly divine scripture because I have my reasons to believe so. For example, to begin with we humans depend upon external physical realities for learning by interacting with them directly. It is because our minds create images of things or models which we see. As things are or they interact with each other we try to figure them out. Through this learning process we learn simple reasoning which becomes more and more complex and sophisticated as we learn more and more. This is why those who have wider and deeper life experiences have better understanding of things than those who have narrow and shallow life experiences. This is why people with wider and deeper life experiences can easily see logical connections and disconnections between things. This helps people to see what goes together and what does not. This is how we gradually become rational thinkers. However to think about abstracts is still another world to learn about and anyone who is not good at learning about real world realities certainly cannot be good in learning about abstract realities because in that case one has to rely upon abstract ideas more and more to try and understand things.
Let me try and explain this in another way. Let say our bike has broken down and we need to repair it. Since bike is basically a physical thing with almost all parts visible to us we can easily find most of the faults in it just by physical visual examination of it. The same cannot be said about our tv set when that breaks down. This time there are many more parts involved and a lot of things in it involve electricity which means electrons are not visible to us to see where they are going and how the fault is preventing them from working. It is easy for a mother to put on anti septic cream when her child slightly injures himself while playing in the playground,, however if a person has internal pain due to something gone wrong inside then that cannot be easily diagnosed due to being invisible to the eye. So we can see how visible things help us learn about invisible things. Therefore first stage of learning is to learn about what is visible and within our reach. Without first going through this stage we cannot develop to go to the next stage of process of learning.
This is why just because we have managed to understand a little bit about real world realities does not mean we can understand the scripture attributed to God. That is because to understand the scripture people need to especially prepare themselves as it needs a higher stage of learning by human beings. That is because it is word of God but in human language and the problem is in decoding it accordingly.
Why do we need higher stage of learning to understand the scripture? It is because without scripture there is nothing to tell us with reasonable certainty regarding origin of the universe and ourselves, how things came to be what they are, what is purpose of all this and how things are supposed to work to fulfil any purpose if there is one? Such things are beyond our senses that is why the need for guidance. However just because we can read a scripture does not mean we can understand it properly or we can follow it faithfully. This needs knowledge about things that a scripture talks about otherwise we cannot understand it. What sense can a baby get when a politician starts talking to him about politics? Absolutely none. Since scripture is mainly for peace and harmony between people so that they could then together concentrate on higher objectives rather than fighting with each other and losing the sight of higher goals therefore it needs full attention for our proper understanding of it to benefit from it.
This is why we cannot be right in dismissing things out of hand till we have done our bit properly regarding the scripture. Divine scriptures were not needed if we were already fully programmed like robots. Scriptures are needed because we have been programmed a bit and a bit we must program ourselves like self learning robots. In short God has designed us to find out God but by our own sense of creativity and effort that is why we must discover the scripture and the creation for ourselves.
As for the objective of deen of islam, it is to fulfil the purpose for which Allah has created this universe and mankind in it. I have already explained in detail what that purpose is or why Allah bothered to create the universe and us human beings in it. Anyone who has bothered to read my posts will have come to know it.
Just to remind people, Allah created things because he being a living being decided to express his existence and that he did by way of creation and revelation. Why revelation? Because he wanted to create a creature called human with a limited free will so that it could appreciate his existence and ability of creativity out of choice with a little helping hand from God himself through his guidance.
To appreciate God to that degree humanity has to reach a level of knowledge all by itself to be able to understand the scripture properly because it has been created knowing nothing at all but with brains and senses and bodies that can help it achieve that objective with help of God's revelation and creation.
This is the starting point of deen of islam ie the purpose why God created things including human beings and why human beings have been left on their own by God to learn things by themselves through direct interaction with things after being created knowing nothing at all. This is why God advises a way of life for mankind that could help them fulfil the purpose for which God created human beings.
What is deen of islam? It is a way of life which if understood properly and followed faithfully by mankind can lead them to blissful, dignified and secure life in this world and any effort by anyone made in that direction will be rewarded both in this life as well as in the life to come. Any people who will reject and oppose that way of life will end up in painful suffering in this life by hands of each other as well as in hereafter because whatever way of life people will invent and adopt by themselves will never lead them to blissful, dignified and secure existence instead it will always lead them into conflicts and wars with each other because no way of life people will ever be able to invent and follow that could be free of concept of personal gains at the expense of each other. This is why deen of islam will take over humanity in due course completely ie after a lot of conflicts and fights with each other people will gradually come to realise that they have no way of life to live by other than the way of life whereby they could live with each other as a united, peaceful, progressive and prosper human community ie an ummah.
What is the way of life about whereby Allah wants people to live? It is about living for each other and not living at the expense of each other. It is because personal vested interests at the expense of each other lead people into all sorts of harmful and destructive divisions and conflicts with each other sooner or later. That is how comes about rivalry and animosity which leads to hatred between people that turns into conflicts which lead to unending wars between people.
Why must people live for each other? It is because they have been created to depend upon each other. Some have been created with much more advantages as compared to others only to work together as one single human family ie they have been created for purpose of complementing each other and not for taking undue advantages of each other. Why must anyone work for anyone else instead of oneself? It is because all human beings belong to God and everything also belongs to God so all things must be used according to his guidance so that his purpose could become fulfilled. If people will not do so then because all people are not created equal therefore those better off will try and take undue advantage of the disadvantaged and so the conflicts will start which cannot be ended till people do what God says ie use his provisions according to his wishes to ensure well being of all people. This is why in deen of islam there is no right for anyone to rule over others or to buy or sell anything because nothing belongs to anyone to do so. People have right of use of things from God but only if they use them according to guidance of God not otherwise. This is why there is no ruling class or money lending business elite or priestly class in actual deen of islam. All these are tricks and mechanisms for using masses abusively by cleverest among them.
The objective of deen of islam is very clear which is to unite mankind for their own good to ensure well being of mankind. Now when you want to unite people you not only need goals and guidelines but a program as well. This is why the quran not only gives a program for accomplishing the stated goals but also guidelines for formation of a constitution and laws to go with it so that people could organise and regulate themselves as a proper human community according to them for accomplishing the stated objectives. This is why goals, guidelines, program, constitution and laws all have to be consistent with each other so that the whole thing could work like a machine. This is what deen of islam basically is in a nut shell.
All human ideologies are based upon pyramid scheme for power through manpower or wealth or fooling people in the name of God through various religions or versions of secularism which present a very odd and twisted concept about God over which people waste a lot of time in arguing with each other endlessly as is very much obvious from the debates on this very site.
First of all words fact and theory both have various meanings which depend upon the context of their use or purpose. However in one respect facts are actual objects or things that are detectable with human senses either directly or with help of instruments ie real world realities are facts be they within our own reach or not. In this context theory means explanation that helps make sense of the things or facts or real world realities or objects. In the same context laws are those observed realities which repeatedly happen the same way or are made to happen the same way. It is a matter of if, then and always. Law means a way of doing something or a way of making something happen the same way. For example, if water is poured on the ground then it will flow downhill due to gravity. Since this will happen always therefore we can take it as a rule. If anything consumable is put in the fire then it will burn. Since this will happen always therefore we can take it as a rule.
Coming to theory of evolution. It is not a fact in the sense explained above because it is not a real world reality or an object but an explanation of some observed realities or objects. Whether this explanation is complete or incomplete depends upon facts or objects used in its explanation. The more the number of facts there are the better the explanation of the facts is because the increased quantity of things in the sample helps understand something better just like quality control sampling. The higher the frequency of the samples the more likely that faulty goods will be caught and less likely that faulty goods will escape detection.
Since for Godless explanation of evolution samples so far collected or are available are not sufficient in numbers therefore it is not as good an explanation as is necessary or needed therefore to take it as a something water tight is not right. There are far too many gaps between things which clearly show they do not transform into each other smoothly rather they need more and more intermediary things to go between them. This shows steps or breaks or irregularities which lend support to God based idea of evolution rather than the Godless based idea of evolution. For example, big bang seems to be a controlled inflation of the universe or expansion of the time and space for serving some purpose rather than a random explosion which could have led to chaos instead of the fully functioning universe.
As for evolution based upon divine intervention there is more than sufficient evidence. For example, so many variations in each and every kind of things in ways that cannot be explained any other way than external intervention due to gaps between species of things. More than that the origin of things which did not exist is better explained that way only. That is, a thing which we accept has come into existence had to have a parent or originator otherwise it could not come into being. I am here due to my parents and the chain goes back but it has to stop at some point in time. If this does not stop then that leads us into infinity which is impossible for things that come into existence because before a child thing could come into existence its parent must first have to be there and if parents of parents are not there then how could the child come into existence? This being the case we have no choice but to except that ultimately there is something there which was always there which did not need a creator which brought the non-existing thing or things into being eg the universe and things in it. Since things need to be functional that come about otherwise they cannot survive this means they need designing and planning because allowing things to happen randomly is not going to produce any results regardless of length of time. You can break a glass bottle and let the pieces lie on the ground they will never become a bottle again regardless how long they are left there. This is why saying Godless evolution is a fact is wrong. If God evolved things it still needs a lot of explanations eg what was purpose of God for creating things? How did he create them? How do they work to fulfil his objective? Etc etc. Idea of God can only be eliminated once we have better explanation than the one offered by the allegedly revealed scripture. However first we need to learn enough to understand this scripture that is said to be from God ie the quran.
I blame our human ignorance for lack of our understanding of the allegedly divine scripture because I have my reasons to believe so. For example, to begin with we humans depend upon external physical realities for learning by interacting with them directly. It is because our minds create images of things or models which we see. As things are or they interact with each other we try to figure them out. Through this learning process we learn simple reasoning which becomes more and more complex and sophisticated as we learn more and more. This is why those who have wider and deeper life experiences have better understanding of things than those who have narrow and shallow life experiences. This is why people with wider and deeper life experiences can easily see logical connections and disconnections between things. This helps people to see what goes together and what does not. This is how we gradually become rational thinkers. However to think about abstracts is still another world to learn about and anyone who is not good at learning about real world realities certainly cannot be good in learning about abstract realities because in that case one has to rely upon abstract ideas more and more to try and understand things.
Let me try and explain this in another way. Let say our bike has broken down and we need to repair it. Since bike is basically a physical thing with almost all parts visible to us we can easily find most of the faults in it just by physical visual examination of it. The same cannot be said about our tv set when that breaks down. This time there are many more parts involved and a lot of things in it involve electricity which means electrons are not visible to us to see where they are going and how the fault is preventing them from working. It is easy for a mother to put on anti septic cream when her child slightly injures himself while playing in the playground,, however if a person has internal pain due to something gone wrong inside then that cannot be easily diagnosed due to being invisible to the eye. So we can see how visible things help us learn about invisible things. Therefore first stage of learning is to learn about what is visible and within our reach. Without first going through this stage we cannot develop to go to the next stage of process of learning.
This is why just because we have managed to understand a little bit about real world realities does not mean we can understand the scripture attributed to God. That is because to understand the scripture people need to especially prepare themselves as it needs a higher stage of learning by human beings. That is because it is word of God but in human language and the problem is in decoding it accordingly.
Why do we need higher stage of learning to understand the scripture? It is because without scripture there is nothing to tell us with reasonable certainty regarding origin of the universe and ourselves, how things came to be what they are, what is purpose of all this and how things are supposed to work to fulfil any purpose if there is one? Such things are beyond our senses that is why the need for guidance. However just because we can read a scripture does not mean we can understand it properly or we can follow it faithfully. This needs knowledge about things that a scripture talks about otherwise we cannot understand it. What sense can a baby get when a politician starts talking to him about politics? Absolutely none. Since scripture is mainly for peace and harmony between people so that they could then together concentrate on higher objectives rather than fighting with each other and losing the sight of higher goals therefore it needs full attention for our proper understanding of it to benefit from it.
This is why we cannot be right in dismissing things out of hand till we have done our bit properly regarding the scripture. Divine scriptures were not needed if we were already fully programmed like robots. Scriptures are needed because we have been programmed a bit and a bit we must program ourselves like self learning robots. In short God has designed us to find out God but by our own sense of creativity and effort that is why we must discover the scripture and the creation for ourselves.
As for the objective of deen of islam, it is to fulfil the purpose for which Allah has created this universe and mankind in it. I have already explained in detail what that purpose is or why Allah bothered to create the universe and us human beings in it. Anyone who has bothered to read my posts will have come to know it.
Just to remind people, Allah created things because he being a living being decided to express his existence and that he did by way of creation and revelation. Why revelation? Because he wanted to create a creature called human with a limited free will so that it could appreciate his existence and ability of creativity out of choice with a little helping hand from God himself through his guidance.
To appreciate God to that degree humanity has to reach a level of knowledge all by itself to be able to understand the scripture properly because it has been created knowing nothing at all but with brains and senses and bodies that can help it achieve that objective with help of God's revelation and creation.
This is the starting point of deen of islam ie the purpose why God created things including human beings and why human beings have been left on their own by God to learn things by themselves through direct interaction with things after being created knowing nothing at all. This is why God advises a way of life for mankind that could help them fulfil the purpose for which God created human beings.
What is deen of islam? It is a way of life which if understood properly and followed faithfully by mankind can lead them to blissful, dignified and secure life in this world and any effort by anyone made in that direction will be rewarded both in this life as well as in the life to come. Any people who will reject and oppose that way of life will end up in painful suffering in this life by hands of each other as well as in hereafter because whatever way of life people will invent and adopt by themselves will never lead them to blissful, dignified and secure existence instead it will always lead them into conflicts and wars with each other because no way of life people will ever be able to invent and follow that could be free of concept of personal gains at the expense of each other. This is why deen of islam will take over humanity in due course completely ie after a lot of conflicts and fights with each other people will gradually come to realise that they have no way of life to live by other than the way of life whereby they could live with each other as a united, peaceful, progressive and prosper human community ie an ummah.
What is the way of life about whereby Allah wants people to live? It is about living for each other and not living at the expense of each other. It is because personal vested interests at the expense of each other lead people into all sorts of harmful and destructive divisions and conflicts with each other sooner or later. That is how comes about rivalry and animosity which leads to hatred between people that turns into conflicts which lead to unending wars between people.
Why must people live for each other? It is because they have been created to depend upon each other. Some have been created with much more advantages as compared to others only to work together as one single human family ie they have been created for purpose of complementing each other and not for taking undue advantages of each other. Why must anyone work for anyone else instead of oneself? It is because all human beings belong to God and everything also belongs to God so all things must be used according to his guidance so that his purpose could become fulfilled. If people will not do so then because all people are not created equal therefore those better off will try and take undue advantage of the disadvantaged and so the conflicts will start which cannot be ended till people do what God says ie use his provisions according to his wishes to ensure well being of all people. This is why in deen of islam there is no right for anyone to rule over others or to buy or sell anything because nothing belongs to anyone to do so. People have right of use of things from God but only if they use them according to guidance of God not otherwise. This is why there is no ruling class or money lending business elite or priestly class in actual deen of islam. All these are tricks and mechanisms for using masses abusively by cleverest among them.
The objective of deen of islam is very clear which is to unite mankind for their own good to ensure well being of mankind. Now when you want to unite people you not only need goals and guidelines but a program as well. This is why the quran not only gives a program for accomplishing the stated goals but also guidelines for formation of a constitution and laws to go with it so that people could organise and regulate themselves as a proper human community according to them for accomplishing the stated objectives. This is why goals, guidelines, program, constitution and laws all have to be consistent with each other so that the whole thing could work like a machine. This is what deen of islam basically is in a nut shell.
All human ideologies are based upon pyramid scheme for power through manpower or wealth or fooling people in the name of God through various religions or versions of secularism which present a very odd and twisted concept about God over which people waste a lot of time in arguing with each other endlessly as is very much obvious from the debates on this very site.
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Yatoo
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Shaykh Ul Islam Ibn Taymiyyah:
Reason is prerequisite to the acquisition of knowledge, as well as for the performance of a good deed or righteous act. Mystical states like ecstasy or intoxication, which involve the suppression of reason, are imperfect states of mind, and ideas that conflict with reason are false. However, reason is not self-sufficient; it cannot dispense with revelation, which alone gives the knowledge of realities that transcend it.
Many theologians base their ideas simply on reason, and rely exclusively on it. They subject it to the faith and the Qur’an. Knowledge is derived from general principles of reason sufficient in themselves without a recourse to faith on the Qur’an.
Most Sufis, on the other hand, condemn reason and find fault with it. They assert that sublime states and higher spiritual stages are never attained without negating reason. They expound ideas which contradict reason and lead to rapture, ecstasy and intoxication. They believe in truths and experiences which, as they claim, accrue only when reason is completely suppressed; they also believe in things that are clearly denied by reason or are not attested to by it.
Both these sources are wrong. To be sure, reason is prerequisite to all knowledge, as it is the prerequisite of virtue and good life. With it we acquire knowledge and virtue, but it is not sufficient by itself. It is only a faculty of the soul, a power like the power of vision in the eye. It works only when it receives light from faith and the Qur’an, as the eye sees only when it receives light from the sun or a fire.
Left to itself, reason cannot know things which it is not equipped to know by itself. On the other hand, when it is completely suppressed, the ideas that one receives and the acts that one performs may be things such as happen to the animals. One may have love and ecstasy and other experiences, but they will not be different from what the animals get. Hence the states that one attains by negating reason are defective, and the ideas one receives contrary to reason are false.
Prophets came with knowledge which reason could not attain in and of itself; never did they come with what reason considers to be impossible. People who place unjustified faith in reason readily make statements regarding the necessity, possibility or impossibility of things purely on the basis of reason; they work all the while under the impression that their views are correct, whereas they are false; they are even audacious enough to oppose the views which the prophets taught. On the other hand, those who decry reason and affirm things that are false, revel in satanic states and evil practices, and cross the boundaries which the sense of discrimination (between good and evil) draws, with which God has endowed man and elevated him above other creatures.
Among the people of hadith (ahl al-hadith) there are also some who lean towards one or the other of these two groups. They sometimes bring down reason from its position, and sometimes put it against the prophetic practices (sunan). [Source: Ibn Taymiyyah Fatawa 3:338-9 – Taken from “Ibn Taymiyyah Expounds on Islam]
Reason is prerequisite to the acquisition of knowledge, as well as for the performance of a good deed or righteous act. Mystical states like ecstasy or intoxication, which involve the suppression of reason, are imperfect states of mind, and ideas that conflict with reason are false. However, reason is not self-sufficient; it cannot dispense with revelation, which alone gives the knowledge of realities that transcend it.
Many theologians base their ideas simply on reason, and rely exclusively on it. They subject it to the faith and the Qur’an. Knowledge is derived from general principles of reason sufficient in themselves without a recourse to faith on the Qur’an.
Most Sufis, on the other hand, condemn reason and find fault with it. They assert that sublime states and higher spiritual stages are never attained without negating reason. They expound ideas which contradict reason and lead to rapture, ecstasy and intoxication. They believe in truths and experiences which, as they claim, accrue only when reason is completely suppressed; they also believe in things that are clearly denied by reason or are not attested to by it.
Both these sources are wrong. To be sure, reason is prerequisite to all knowledge, as it is the prerequisite of virtue and good life. With it we acquire knowledge and virtue, but it is not sufficient by itself. It is only a faculty of the soul, a power like the power of vision in the eye. It works only when it receives light from faith and the Qur’an, as the eye sees only when it receives light from the sun or a fire.
Left to itself, reason cannot know things which it is not equipped to know by itself. On the other hand, when it is completely suppressed, the ideas that one receives and the acts that one performs may be things such as happen to the animals. One may have love and ecstasy and other experiences, but they will not be different from what the animals get. Hence the states that one attains by negating reason are defective, and the ideas one receives contrary to reason are false.
Prophets came with knowledge which reason could not attain in and of itself; never did they come with what reason considers to be impossible. People who place unjustified faith in reason readily make statements regarding the necessity, possibility or impossibility of things purely on the basis of reason; they work all the while under the impression that their views are correct, whereas they are false; they are even audacious enough to oppose the views which the prophets taught. On the other hand, those who decry reason and affirm things that are false, revel in satanic states and evil practices, and cross the boundaries which the sense of discrimination (between good and evil) draws, with which God has endowed man and elevated him above other creatures.
Among the people of hadith (ahl al-hadith) there are also some who lean towards one or the other of these two groups. They sometimes bring down reason from its position, and sometimes put it against the prophetic practices (sunan). [Source: Ibn Taymiyyah Fatawa 3:338-9 – Taken from “Ibn Taymiyyah Expounds on Islam]
Laal
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Lol. Just relying on verbatim wahe would cause bloodshed (case in point: Islamic terrorism). You need aqal (or reason) to discern the wahe.
JaDed
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I try not to get into such threads but since i see evolution being questioned based on insufficient data I'm sure religion and God fall in the same category by that logic.
If we want pakistan to be an exemplary kingdom then that is only and only possible through implementing deen of islam. The problem is people have little or no knowledge about deen of islam. This problem needs to be solved on revolutionary basis.
it is high time we accepted islam as a deen and not as a mazhab. It is because in the proper quranic context islam is all about the purpose of creation ie why God created this universe and mankind in it. Why he gave people limited choice and his revelation. What is revelation of God about and why it is the way it is. Once a person realises importance of these like points only then there is a chance that a person may see what the quran is saying and why because one then becomes aware of the context of deen of islam.
The quran is simply put a manifesto ie a program for God set goals for mankind to accomplish according to his provided guidelines for a constitution and laws in order to set up or organise humanity into a proper human community and to regulate it so that mankind fulfill the God given program. This is worship of God in the context of the quranic text not what mullahs and priests preach in mosques and churches or temples etc. Deen of islam is not at all about what people who claim to be muslims are saying and doing or for that matter what nonmuslims are saying and doing.
The quran is basically all about bringing about a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah for ensuring blissful, dignified and secure existence of mankind themselves in this very world on basis of which people will be rewarded in hereafter. This is why there is no need for changing the text of the quran or its message but it does need people who have brains and sense to make proper sense of it and and follow it faithfully so that God's purpose for creation of humanity and sending his revelation for mankind becomes fulfilled. So all people need to do is, learn sense to make proper sense of things then with help of that sense make proper sense of the quran and then do as it says and reap the results or benefits or advantages it promises.
It is not the quran or deen of islam that needs any changing in its text because it is from God and it is perfect for its purpose. What needs to change is humanity in its mindset, attitude and behaviour and it is changing as time goes on through interacting with each other be it by forcing each other towards the right path bit by bit instead of educating itself by bringing about an education based revolution. We are happy with bringing about bloody revolutions but not education based revolution which is really needed.
One has to ask oneself, why aren't we human beings building a lot of schools, colleges and universities? What or who is stopping us and why? There is no shortage of human beings on this planet, is there? There are a lot of people who are literate in our world, why are they not doing enough to help others become literate who are illiterate? There are plenty of educated people in our world in various fields of knowledge, why are they not helping others to become educated like them? There are a lot of highly trained and skilful people in many fields, why are they not busy trying to train others who are untrained and unskilled? Are we being stopped by the quran and deen of islam?
Why have we adopted divisive social, political and economic ideologies? Why are we not adopting an ideology for unity, peace, progress and prosperity for humanity? Is it not because we are ignorant fools with biases and prejudices against each other which therefore forced us to invent and adopt ideologies, systems, structure, procedures and practices that suit our own tastes. Then why blame God or his revelation for our own foolishness and stupidity?
If we want God to have his way then we have no choice but to give up our self made self interest based ideologies and practices. Otherwise if we ourselves do not want to live as a proper human community under rule of law of God then let us keep going and keep facing the dire consequences that have been made clear to us by God in his message. God has given us choice to live our lives his way or our own ways and we have chosen to live our lives our own ways and we are never tired of blaming God for all that goes wrong for doing that. Is that any solution for our self created problems? Is there any solace in all this for us that we must continue living the very same ways that we have been that have led us to the kind of life that we are complaining about today?If not and we still want to regardless then how right are we in saying anything about God? Are we at all to blame for anything at all? Does blaming God for all that is wrong with our world makes it all ok? If not then we are looking at things in a very wrong way so we better look for a way that makes better sense but that we will only come to know if we ourselves have learned sense to make proper sense of things.
it is high time we accepted islam as a deen and not as a mazhab. It is because in the proper quranic context islam is all about the purpose of creation ie why God created this universe and mankind in it. Why he gave people limited choice and his revelation. What is revelation of God about and why it is the way it is. Once a person realises importance of these like points only then there is a chance that a person may see what the quran is saying and why because one then becomes aware of the context of deen of islam.
The quran is simply put a manifesto ie a program for God set goals for mankind to accomplish according to his provided guidelines for a constitution and laws in order to set up or organise humanity into a proper human community and to regulate it so that mankind fulfill the God given program. This is worship of God in the context of the quranic text not what mullahs and priests preach in mosques and churches or temples etc. Deen of islam is not at all about what people who claim to be muslims are saying and doing or for that matter what nonmuslims are saying and doing.
The quran is basically all about bringing about a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah for ensuring blissful, dignified and secure existence of mankind themselves in this very world on basis of which people will be rewarded in hereafter. This is why there is no need for changing the text of the quran or its message but it does need people who have brains and sense to make proper sense of it and and follow it faithfully so that God's purpose for creation of humanity and sending his revelation for mankind becomes fulfilled. So all people need to do is, learn sense to make proper sense of things then with help of that sense make proper sense of the quran and then do as it says and reap the results or benefits or advantages it promises.
It is not the quran or deen of islam that needs any changing in its text because it is from God and it is perfect for its purpose. What needs to change is humanity in its mindset, attitude and behaviour and it is changing as time goes on through interacting with each other be it by forcing each other towards the right path bit by bit instead of educating itself by bringing about an education based revolution. We are happy with bringing about bloody revolutions but not education based revolution which is really needed.
One has to ask oneself, why aren't we human beings building a lot of schools, colleges and universities? What or who is stopping us and why? There is no shortage of human beings on this planet, is there? There are a lot of people who are literate in our world, why are they not doing enough to help others become literate who are illiterate? There are plenty of educated people in our world in various fields of knowledge, why are they not helping others to become educated like them? There are a lot of highly trained and skilful people in many fields, why are they not busy trying to train others who are untrained and unskilled? Are we being stopped by the quran and deen of islam?
Why have we adopted divisive social, political and economic ideologies? Why are we not adopting an ideology for unity, peace, progress and prosperity for humanity? Is it not because we are ignorant fools with biases and prejudices against each other which therefore forced us to invent and adopt ideologies, systems, structure, procedures and practices that suit our own tastes. Then why blame God or his revelation for our own foolishness and stupidity?
If we want God to have his way then we have no choice but to give up our self made self interest based ideologies and practices. Otherwise if we ourselves do not want to live as a proper human community under rule of law of God then let us keep going and keep facing the dire consequences that have been made clear to us by God in his message. God has given us choice to live our lives his way or our own ways and we have chosen to live our lives our own ways and we are never tired of blaming God for all that goes wrong for doing that. Is that any solution for our self created problems? Is there any solace in all this for us that we must continue living the very same ways that we have been that have led us to the kind of life that we are complaining about today?If not and we still want to regardless then how right are we in saying anything about God? Are we at all to blame for anything at all? Does blaming God for all that is wrong with our world makes it all ok? If not then we are looking at things in a very wrong way so we better look for a way that makes better sense but that we will only come to know if we ourselves have learned sense to make proper sense of things.
James
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Such is life.
I think such a chance falling so perfectly is indeed possible.
Life is an extraordinary thing; something so extraordinary can conceivably have come from one amazing instance of chance.
dhump
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Probable not necessarily possible without fine tuning.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
endymion248
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Of course it is when you consider that there are billions of planets in this universe that has existed for 5 billion years. The surprising part would be if it only happened once.
Downlaodable pages of one of the oldest copy of the quran dated between 649-674 ce.
http://idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
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</div>
http://idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165
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last_knight
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First of all, Some of us mistake Instinct as knowledge. We need to rectify this.
When we differentiate between instinct and knowledge, next we have to draw a line between knowledge and wisdom.
Knowledge stems from the media of communication, aka 5 primary senses. This is a learning process of trial revolving around the pivot of language. A decent indicator of "aqal".
Wisdom is something we can't learn. No matter how much effort we put in, wisdom develops subconsciously hence is more precious. "Subconscious" is quite often interchangeable with "wahee".
When we differentiate between instinct and knowledge, next we have to draw a line between knowledge and wisdom.
Knowledge stems from the media of communication, aka 5 primary senses. This is a learning process of trial revolving around the pivot of language. A decent indicator of "aqal".
Wisdom is something we can't learn. No matter how much effort we put in, wisdom develops subconsciously hence is more precious. "Subconscious" is quite often interchangeable with "wahee".
Yossarian
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Knowledge of what? How to survive and reproduce? How to rear young and keep them safe? How/where to obtain food? How to build shelters (homes), form communities? How to communicate and warn others of danger? Well thousands of different species of animals and insects also do that. You could even argue that some of them are better at it then many human beings.
The single major difference between humans and the rest is that humans are the only ones who kill for pleasure, kill without a need to do so, kill when they are not in danger, and are not in search of food. Is that the 'human knowledge' you are referring to?
Black Zero
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Basis of human knowledge is human.
We learn from mistakes, pass our knowledge, experiment, analyse etc.
Present is correcting the mistakes of past and future will our mistakes.
All past books contain blunders ... which proves that there is nothing extraordinary about them.
We learn from mistakes, pass our knowledge, experiment, analyse etc.
Present is correcting the mistakes of past and future will our mistakes.
All past books contain blunders ... which proves that there is nothing extraordinary about them.
Main points everyone should note when debating about existence and revelation of God.
1)No human being can prove God does not exist.
2)Existence of God is an undeniable possibility.
3) If God exists then he is the creator of all that exists but the question is why did he create this universe and things in it as well as people?
4)If God created things for his purpose then he ought to explain that to mankind in some way, so did he or did he not?
5) If God did explain things for us human beings then are we capable of understanding his message? This question arises because God is supposed to be all knowing about his plan and purpose but people are born not knowing a thing. This means people cannot understand the message of God unless they find a way to do so.
6) Has anyone found the way to make proper sense of message of God? This is important because unless we have the way to make proper sense of message of God we cannot understand the message of God and if we fail to do that then we cannot be right in saying things about the message of God concerning which we have no knowledge at all.
So people must look for a way to make proper sense of message of God if there is one from God for us human beings. Human language is invented by human beings and used by them so it cannot express thoughts of God unless it is used in a particular way. Likewise unless people understand that way they cannot interpret message of God as intended by God so what is that way according to which God revealed his message for people to make sense of it provided they are aware of its existence?
This is the real question which I have tried to answer in detail for helping others to make sense of the text of the quran. One can find my detailed explanation of things HERE
1)No human being can prove God does not exist.
2)Existence of God is an undeniable possibility.
3) If God exists then he is the creator of all that exists but the question is why did he create this universe and things in it as well as people?
4)If God created things for his purpose then he ought to explain that to mankind in some way, so did he or did he not?
5) If God did explain things for us human beings then are we capable of understanding his message? This question arises because God is supposed to be all knowing about his plan and purpose but people are born not knowing a thing. This means people cannot understand the message of God unless they find a way to do so.
6) Has anyone found the way to make proper sense of message of God? This is important because unless we have the way to make proper sense of message of God we cannot understand the message of God and if we fail to do that then we cannot be right in saying things about the message of God concerning which we have no knowledge at all.
So people must look for a way to make proper sense of message of God if there is one from God for us human beings. Human language is invented by human beings and used by them so it cannot express thoughts of God unless it is used in a particular way. Likewise unless people understand that way they cannot interpret message of God as intended by God so what is that way according to which God revealed his message for people to make sense of it provided they are aware of its existence?
This is the real question which I have tried to answer in detail for helping others to make sense of the text of the quran. One can find my detailed explanation of things HERE
Justcrazy
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Revelation ( Wahee ) is the source of all knowledge . Adam AS was given knowledge and through Him we got that knowledge. Slowly we made progression , but seed was given to Adam AS , which is almost reaching its pinnacle.
Episode 1.1: Introduction to Critical Thinking (revised)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRmhB3MW6GE
Episode 1.2: Understanding Arguments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPgJCMd9a6k
Episode 1.3: Deductive and Inductive Arguments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwtCScUoL_w
Episode 1.4: Premises and Conclusions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpNoCmNtP5c
Episode 1.5: What is an Argument?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSAWrqavYg0
Episode 1.6a: Evaluating Language, Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keFezZC_l-E
Episode 1.6b: Evaluating Language, Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X65uQ0akLwA
Episode 2.1: Facts and Opinions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb8dvk4yu3k
Episode 2.2: Unstated Assumption
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuXeVpaToPo
Episode 2.3: Truth and Acceptability
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIJjBpFgMr8
Episode 3.1 Theories and Methods
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1F6p2Rpc9g
Episode 3.2 Assessing Acceptability
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVwq7V9eAuo
Episode 3.3 Sources and Biases
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLqV0-n2HZQ
Episode 3.4 Fallacies and Errors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEUZ2h0ykMQ
Episode 4.1 Necessary and Sufficient
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOXz-uTZr04
Episode 4.2 Common Errors of Relevance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTzL8zY7n4U
Episode 4.3 The Many Forms of Inductive Arguments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhFGPlocYOU
Episode 4.4 Understanding Causal Reasoning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnBEACvHjcU
Episode 4.5 Common Errors in Causal Reasoning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sD8E8GcMqA
Episode 5.1 Identifying and Defining Problems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m-xgti19-U
Episode 5.2 Perspective
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShE0H5sP9Y8
Episode 5.3 Constraints
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEsmvLYmmEs
Episode 5.4 Constantly Reevaluating
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNUcvptDxvs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRmhB3MW6GE
Episode 1.2: Understanding Arguments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPgJCMd9a6k
Episode 1.3: Deductive and Inductive Arguments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwtCScUoL_w
Episode 1.4: Premises and Conclusions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpNoCmNtP5c
Episode 1.5: What is an Argument?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSAWrqavYg0
Episode 1.6a: Evaluating Language, Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keFezZC_l-E
Episode 1.6b: Evaluating Language, Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X65uQ0akLwA
Episode 2.1: Facts and Opinions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb8dvk4yu3k
Episode 2.2: Unstated Assumption
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuXeVpaToPo
Episode 2.3: Truth and Acceptability
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIJjBpFgMr8
Episode 3.1 Theories and Methods
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1F6p2Rpc9g
Episode 3.2 Assessing Acceptability
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVwq7V9eAuo
Episode 3.3 Sources and Biases
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLqV0-n2HZQ
Episode 3.4 Fallacies and Errors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEUZ2h0ykMQ
Episode 4.1 Necessary and Sufficient
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOXz-uTZr04
Episode 4.2 Common Errors of Relevance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTzL8zY7n4U
Episode 4.3 The Many Forms of Inductive Arguments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhFGPlocYOU
Episode 4.4 Understanding Causal Reasoning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnBEACvHjcU
Episode 4.5 Common Errors in Causal Reasoning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sD8E8GcMqA
Episode 5.1 Identifying and Defining Problems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m-xgti19-U
Episode 5.2 Perspective
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShE0H5sP9Y8
Episode 5.3 Constraints
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEsmvLYmmEs
Episode 5.4 Constantly Reevaluating
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNUcvptDxvs
Who created the God? - God is made of something or whatever your definition of God is, how that stuff was created in the first place??
We don't know for sure how life started, most data points to the theories that it came from simple to complex, as we have seen in the evolution of life. Complex plants and animals were not present at first. First billion plus years were all unicellular organism, it took a long time to develop multi cellular organism, same goes for more complex plants and animals. There is a progression from simple to complex. We see that in many aspects of life. Most of the elements are created by stars from Hydrogen, we have evidence of how complex elements are create from simple ones. That is one of the main purpose of stars to create elements, that later on in a less intense env allows chemistry to shine. Most of that is not just faith, we have evidence of many aspects of the evolution of universe and life, simple to complex theme exists in every aspect of evolution.
Now this theory that most complex being aka God was somehow created by magic (and even he does not know what was that magic, atleast non of the holly books have shared that magic with us), then he created everything else with his own magic, is a very silly and intellectually shallow origin story. People are more emotionally attach to such stories (after 1000s of years of indoctrination), than with intellectual vigor. I am happy to listen to God's origin story with intellect and evidence (lets keep emotions out of it)
Who created the God? - God is made of something or whatever your definition of God is, how that stuff was created in the first place??
We don't know for sure how life started, most data points to the theories that it came from simple to complex, as we have seen in the evolution of life. Complex plants and animals were not present at first. First billion plus years were all unicellular organism, it took a long time to develop multi cellular organism, same goes for more complex plants and animals. There is a progression from simple to complex. We see that in many aspects of life. Most of the elements are created by stars from Hydrogen, we have evidence of how complex elements are create from simple ones. That is one of the main purpose of stars to create elements, that later on in a less intense env allows chemistry to shine. Most of that is not just faith, we have evidence of many aspects of the evolution of universe and life, simple to complex theme exists in every aspect of evolution.
Now this theory that most complex being aka God was somehow created by magic (and even he does not know what was that magic, atleast non of the holly books have shared that magic with us), then he created everything else with his own magic, is a very silly and intellectually shallow origin story. People are more emotionally attach to such stories (after 1000s of years of indoctrination), than with intellectual vigor. I am happy to listen to God's origin story with intellect and evidence (lets keep emotions out of it)
Dear yasir, it is not necessary for us to know every bit of detail about our creator instead it is sufficient to know some of the things which help us understand things sensibly.
Existence of God is a necessity because nothing can come from absolute nothing at all. Zero can never equal one nor one can equal zero. If something is there then it had to come from something not from nothing at all. So it is more logical to accept someone was already there always than try to accept it created itself. If we try to say God was created or needed someone else to create him then this will result is an infinite regression back in time which could not have given rise to any creation at all. Therefore we will have to accept a starting point which we could use to explain the rest of on going stuff.
The main point is only a proper explanation of what is going on and why and that is explained by God himself through his revealed message. All we need to do is study things to see how could we make proper sense of message of God. The day we become capable of understanding message of God properly in light of real world realities everything will make sense to us as it ought to.
Meanwhile we need to look at possible causes and available circumstantial evidences just as we do in case of finding a dead body of a person and no one there to tell us what happen or how it happened or why etc. After gathering possible causes and evidences we bring them together to see which of the possibilities and the evidences make better sense and take those and ignore the rest. We keep investigating the case further to try to eliminate as many possible causes as we can in light of available evidences so that we end up with only one possibility which solves the case or the case remains open till it is solved.
Likewise we need to gather possible causes for existence of the universe and the evidences we can and then bring them together and see which of the possibilities and evidences make better sense and accept them and reject the rest.
regards and all the best.
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