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What lead will be enough to win against England in the 1st Test?

Aim for 250 but even 150 will give a good lead to add to the 100 runs deficit.

Ideally leave at least one session of Day 4 and all of Day 5 to bowl England out.
 
Unless Stuart Broad comes up with a 8-15 or something as such from any other fast bowler from England, this is Pakistan's game to lose.

A target of 250 is beyond England's reach with two spinners bowling in tandem and supporting the hostile pace trio of S.A.N.

A score of 125+ will do it for Pakistan in 2nd inning.
 
Any target above 300 would be difficult to chase in the fourth innings on this pitch. So they should be aiming to score 200 or thereabouts in this innings.
 
Last Monetarist said:
Any target above 300 would be difficult to chase in the fourth innings on this pitch. So they should be aiming to score 200 or thereabouts in this innings.
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Totally agree. With our 2 spinners in a 4th innings on a dry spinning pitch, we just need to add another 150+ runs to get our lead close to 300 and we will have a great chance. Obviously, the more runs the better, but that should be enough.
 
England's highest chase at Old Trafford was 294 vs New Zealand in 2008, second highest is 231 vs West Indies in 2004.

250 and above would be very tough on this surface.
 
One thing to keep into account is that Sunday's forecast is dodgy!! I really hope someone out of that massive backroom staff has taken that into account . .

Hopefully if they can get through the next hour . . they shouldn't bat past lunch tomorrow! that should be around 50 to 60 overs . . whatever they can get in that
 
ideal is lead of above 300 but i'll take 260-270 as well
 
Markhor said:
England's highest chase at Old Trafford was 294 vs New Zealand in 2008, second highest is 231 vs West Indies in 2004.

250 and above would be very tough on this surface.
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we once lost a test i think some few years ago iin 2018 or 2016, we had a 100 runs lead, what was the target?
 
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300 to be safe at the very least. This is an inexperienced attack despite first innings success, need sort of a safety net with some extra runs.
 
Major said:
we once lost a test i think some few years ago iin 2018 or 2016, we had a 100 runs lead, what was the target?
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That was Edgbaston 2016 where we were set 340+ to chase but more likely we had to survive Day 5 which we didn't.
 
Desperately need another 100 runs at least to keep us in the game. Please Azhar and Asad play a meaningful innings.
 
NauV said:
One thing to keep into account is that Sunday's forecast is dodgy!! I really hope someone out of that massive backroom staff has taken that into account . .

Hopefully if they can get through the next hour . . they shouldn't bat past lunch tomorrow! that should be around 50 to 60 overs . . whatever they can get in that
Click to expand...

Nevermind! We won't last that long . . I'll be happy with anything around 275 ish
 
sweep_shot said:
Anything over 250 should be a winning score against present England.
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Should be, but could easily be overturned by a single England batsmen if he has a stormer, and in Stokes, Root and now looks like Pope as well, they have a few.
 
lol at 300 & 350

200 is more than enough, this pitch will be turning square on Saturday and England are one of the weakest teams against spin. Unless Yasir and Shadab start throwing Lancashire pies all day, very tough for England to get close.
 
Who knows? Anything bellow 300 can be chased by England even if the ball is turning like anything.

They don't have much of a tail. Even James Anderson can bat a bit.
 
Eng will have very hard time chasing 250. Pitch will turn more and more.

Pakistan pretty much has this game now...
 
Pakistan are effectively 213/5 right now. Even if the wickets continue to fall they'll inch their way to 275+ and that should put it out of reach of England.
 
Another 25 or so - and Pak can start to breathe better
 
I'd like to see 300 as a lead, especially with Stokes there.

280 as a minimum.
 
+1
Not sure how it ll go...tough one. Once again we have to get stokes root out cheaply
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Pakistan have got enough.....Shaheen and Shadab to bowl England out.....goodnight all! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PakvsEng?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#PakvsEng</a></p>— Mickey Arthur (@Mickeyarthurcr1) <a href="https://twitter.com/Mickeyarthurcr1/status/1291795562191183872?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 7, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
if pak bowl well it should be enough already, i would have been comfortable with 280+, but unless pak get lucky these last two wont add 35 more, lets hope for 15 or 20 more.
 
Abdullah719 said:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Pakistan have got enough.....Shaheen and Shadab to bowl England out.....goodnight all! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PakvsEng?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#PakvsEng</a></p>— Mickey Arthur (@Mickeyarthurcr1) <a href="https://twitter.com/Mickeyarthurcr1/status/1291795562191183872?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 7, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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This only tells why PAK lost to SRL & NZL at home (UAE) - ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE about spin bowling......................
 
England has done well to avoid starting chasing in those tense 5-10 overs at the end of the day.

I would say Pakistan need 280+ you o be on the safer side because England has three proper sessions to bat tomorrow.
 
300 wouldve been a safe lead.. Now theres a chance England with their long batting lineup can actually chase this down.
 
No excuse for not scoring 200 here, which is a mile away.
Some awful batting with most of the wickets gifted.
England aren't going to be gifting us wickets like that and they can all hold a bat.
Need a new ball blitz again.
Hope the last w wickets can hang around for half an hour, 2 give our quicks 2 bites at it, one before and one after lunch
 
Need to start being smart about running down the wicket systematically for the rest of this innings. Even if it means feigning a few singles just to turn around mid pitch with spikes firmly in the pitch
 
250-260 should be enough, but it will give England hope and they will feel that there is something to build on.

Pak will be highly depended on their leggies.
 
As said in the match thread wicket has been deteriorating and 14 wickets fell today itself. Scores have been declining throughout the match, there is uneven bounce as well as spin. Yes Pak's third inning batting was ordinary but, considering everything 250+ should be enough unless bowlers bowl poorly and Eng plays really well.
 
I believe PAK already has enough, but another 10-12 from the cursed guy Yasir can be very handy.

Chasing 250+ on such wickets are never easy, but against that logic, you never know what a partnership between inform players can do, and Poms has at least three players in good form - Stokes, Root & Pope, first two are due in second innings as well. And, they have a very good tail and players who can hit out. PAK better hold on to catches and whatever they can add tomorrow morning - time is not any issue, unless it rains, despite losing 40+ overs so far, this game won't go to Day 5. If Poms re to win it, they'll do it inside 80 overs - it'll be easier to score ~ 256, than surviving 90 overs.
 
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Problem is pak won't be able to have attacking fields for the likes of Yasir and Shadab
 
Through out the Pakistan innings, there wasn't a single wicket that was due to the pitch deteriorating . . The pitch seems fine! No demons as such (other than psychological 4th innings) . . Look at the dismissals . . Abid, shan, shafiq, azhar ali . . Absolute gifts!

Pak might still win this, but its amazing how we do this time and time again! No other team would have botched this like we did . .

As for the lead . . Well with the batting ability of our tail . . Even 260 is a stretch!

Game is 50/50 now for me!
 
I'll be comfortable at 275 with an English wicket in the first 10.
 
They have got enough already but Root and Stokes both have flopped with bat in last couple of tests, so they will not let this go easy.
 
220 should be more than enough.

But if any of Root/Stokes have one of those days, even 320 can be chased.

60-40 Pakistan should win. Let's see :misbah
 
WhenSultansBowled said:
220 should be more than enough.

But if any of Root/Stokes have one of those days, even 320 can be chased.

60-40 Pakistan should win. Let's see :misbah
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Pretty much. Both are important wickets, if Stokes does something exceptional like he did in Ashes where even 350 wasnt enough then thats part of the game I guess.
 
250 chase is never easy in the final innings, on a wicket like this it's virtually impossible specially with the dry weather around.
 
We should have had a lead of at least 320-330, but as always we managed to collapse under 200.

Having said this, Anything around 250 won't be easy to chase on this pitch. I only fear Ben Stokes.
 
What are the highest succesful chases as this ground ?

I just feel that from an England POV all the hopes are pinned on Stokes, he is a record breaker. Other batsman are due a few runs to and will be a lot more cautious against the Pak bowlers, Yasir Shah will be key for Pakistan; after all the stick that man gets!
 
England will play aggressively to chase the runs down. This can put Pakistan under pressure. I still feel 280 would have been a comfortable lead but anything under is still doable (albeit tough). I feel Pakistani batsmen did a horrible job and shows the importance on Shan Masoods century in the first innings.

How is Pakistan looking for the rest of the series? It doesnt seem Azhar and Shafiq are in form. Are we going to rely on Shan and Babar to take us through. This collapse raises a lot of questions.
 
Pakistan have enough runs but they still have to bowl well - straight and a good length.
The pitch is doing more than enough for spinners and seamers to assit them.

England will have to bat out of their skins and it’s possible one of them like Stokes scores a gem but Pak 70/30 favourites.
 
A spirited fightback from England that has restored a bit of pride after their largely spineless batting display, but I think that Pakistan already has enough runs. England might have had an outside chance at chasing down 220, but 250+ is too many I think.
 
shaz619 said:
What are the highest succesful chases as this ground ?

I just feel that from an England POV all the hopes are pinned on Stokes, he is a record breaker. Other batsman are due a few runs to and will be a lot more cautious against the Pak bowlers, Yasir Shah will be key for Pakistan; after all the stick that man gets!
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Stokes will be clueless against the leggies who will bowl around the wicket. HE's a good player but not a great player of spin, no England player is tbf. I dont think Stokes will even get to face spin, he will be back in the shed before they come on.
 
Ozeirk said:
England will play aggressively to chase the runs down. This can put Pakistan under pressure.
Click to expand...

Shots on this wicket are not easy to play. Going aggressive at the start would be a double edged sword, if they loose 2 quick wickets with this approach then they will be on the back foot.
 
If we can somehow manage another 15/20
A few wickets with new ball and then I think we should be ok

But this game should of been a lot more comfortable
 
Its funny how ben stokes has become that symbol of cornered tiger.

Before the world cup, wouldnt even care about the guy, would had laughed that he was playing in the team.

But after what he did in the world cup and that game winning innings against australia with leach batting, you could never be sure about winning till hes out.

We have seen what stokes did with NZ and Australia. The last thing i want is him breaking the hearts of pakistanis.

Who knows, tommarow he might pull it off once again. Or maybe give a chance and let broad finish it
 
Titan24 said:
Shots on this wicket are not easy to play. Going aggressive at the start would be a double edged sword, if they loose 2 quick wickets with this approach then they will be on the back foot.
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Burns and Sibley can't even play aggressively.

Their aggressiveness starts from Stokes and if Burns and Sibley manage to see off the new ball then England might consider giving Stokes a more open role.
 
shaz619 said:
What are the highest succesful chases as this ground ?
Click to expand...

viZP4YD.png
 
I keep going back to the Lord’s test of 2016 where we bowled ENG out for scores of c. 210 in each inning. Lead was only 75 after the first inning but what we had was c. 200 in the second innings making the target around 300. Anyway, feel like if ENG can get to 50-0, it may be there’s to lose.
 
By having almost all batsmen fail or throw their wickets away in second innings: Abid Ali, Asad Shafique (courtesy Rizwan's call), etc. we have ensured that England is not really out of the match. If 1-2 of their batsmen get set, this score will not be a lot to chase. Yes, Pakistan winning the game is the most likely outcome but if we bowl badly, drop catches/field lapses etc. this will end up really tragic quickly!

This situation keeps reminding me of two instances which have a bigger impact on the game than anything and both involved Shadab (one way or the other):

1- When Shadab threw his wicket away in the first innings and one of the experts said (I think on Cricinfo) that this is where Asian teams fail (in England) to put their foot down. Shadab's shot will be something they will rue later because he threw a chance to put the match out of England's reach and now instead of 400 or more, they will maybe get to 325 or something (jist of the message)

2- Azhar's hesitancy in bringing Shadab to bowl last night when Pope and Buttler were quite new...they then started attacking Yasir and yet Azhar would not take him off. At that point, Shadab being a very modern sort of leggie, with a very good googly, could have helped get one of them out quickly and England could have been out with a score like 150-175. We all saw how he quickly helped polish the tail as soon as Azhar brought him in when Yasir was loosing some of his bite.

Both the above chances were squandered and now we might not even add another run to the target tomorrow morning. This 244 lead could easily have been 300+ already but alas this is where Pak cricket always becomes painful for the supporters!
 
ElRaja said:
the chase against new zealand was a similar game scenario to the current game, england winning of the fourth day after turning over a big deficit.
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Vettori went for 1-111 in the 4th innings, our spinners are wicket takers so not a similar scenario in that sense.
 
All hopes on Yasir. If he has a good day, Pakistan will win this. If he doesnt, England have an outside chance of nicking this test.

Horrendous batting performance.
 
Usman Chadda said:
All hopes on Yasir. If he has a good day, Pakistan will win this. If he doesnt, England have an outside chance of nicking this test.

Horrendous batting performance.
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Pretty much this. We need a cameo with the bat and for him to take authority with the ball. I'm not too hopeful on either front.

If Stokes gets going tomorrow then 250 is going to start to look small. We need 280-290 to extinguish some of the English hope.
 
A lot of people criticising Pakistan for their Batting on Day 3

Can someone explain what was the most runs scored by an individual today on this day? I can hardly recall any player scoring more than 30 runs today. Ollie Pope scored 20 runs over night, same as Butler.

Pakistan did well to get 321 in the first innings when they were destined to get maybe 230. Pakistan will win this easily unless the young umpire saves England with some umpire’s calls.
 
Before the test match, we would have all taken 250 runs to chase for England in the 4th innings. In that way, nothing has changed and we stand a good chance. But, the way we crumbled in the 3rd innings that has provided momentum to England and they will want to drive on that momentum. For that, if we stand 30 mins and score 20-25 runs that would be great to harper their momentum and mood for the chase. Even if we fail on that, we should try to get the openers as soon as possible to swing the momentum. Even if that does not happen we should keep fighting hard. I feel Root, Stokes and Pope are the main players in order to get England close and if they do then Buttler and the lower order might be handy otherwise they will fall like a house of cards.
 
DandyFellow said:
Before the test match, we would have all taken 250 runs to chase for England in the 4th innings. In that way, nothing has changed and we stand a good chance. But, the way we crumbled in the 3rd innings that has provided momentum to England and they will want to drive on that momentum. For that, if we stand 30 mins and score 20-25 runs that would be great to harper their momentum and mood for the chase. Even if we fail on that, we should try to get the openers as soon as possible to swing the momentum. Even if that does not happen we should keep fighting hard. I feel Root, Stokes and Pope are the main players in order to get England close and if they do then Buttler and the lower order might be handy otherwise they will fall like a house of cards.
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Similar sentiments from Mushy as well - feels another 20-30 will do the job for Pakistan.

My only problem is that one person - Ben Stokes!
 
Even 250 will be a tough chase.

275-300 would put them in the driver's seat.
 
MenInG said:
Similar sentiments from Mushy as well - feels another 20-30 will do the job for Pakistan.

My only problem is that one person - Ben Stokes!
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I fear Stokes too but remember he is a leftie and there must be a lot of rough for Yasir. Bring Stokes early on and attack with pace. Otherwise, attack with Yasir using the rough. In sha Allah he is not going to play well when it spins.
 
Abdullah719 said:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Pakistan have got enough.....Shaheen and Shadab to bowl England out.....goodnight all! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PakvsEng?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#PakvsEng</a></p>— Mickey Arthur (@Mickeyarthurcr1) <a href="https://twitter.com/Mickeyarthurcr1/status/1291795562191183872?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 7, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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As I said - there is a reason ...... this guy was Coach for 3 years, and put his eggs into two baskets that had combined figures of 23'1 - 1 - 95 - 1 on a 4th innings wicket defending 276............
 
MMHS said:
As I said - there is a reason ...... this guy was Coach for 3 years, and put his eggs into two baskets that had combined figures of 23'1 - 1 - 95 - 1 on a 4th innings wicket defending 276............
Click to expand...

He has zero understanding of spin bowling. Where was the game lost for Pakistan ? I feel too much credit is being taken away from England though.
 
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