Which cricketers would make both Test and ODI all-time XIs?

[Buffet]

Nor argument about Aus having gun team helping McGrath has some merit, but here is the same trend with Ambrose vs Wasim. Again both played at same time and we are not talking about 2 years of peak here and there. It's their entire career.

Ambrose , like McGrath, had majority of career higher than peak rating of Wasim. WI was behind Pakistan when you take entire career of Ambrose.



Again, rating is unbiased, takes account of context like relative contribution in each match, opposition strength etc. There could be problem if we use this method for players playing in different eras, but for same era it's very accurate.

I am simply presenting this to put my point across because not many posters have seen entire 90s. I saw entire career of all three here, I will have no hesitation to put McGrath and Ambrose over Wasim in test format. That's despite me preferring to watch Wasim over other two.

 

[docteurmanish]

players can walk in both tests and odi
team combo demands pace bounce swing utility allrounders

to each his own brother - this 11 of mine ready to take on any 11 in tests and one dayers

cant include people who are good inone format and bad in another

 

[docteurmanish]

Pretty safe to say that you've completely misunderstood the thread

players can walk in both tests and odi
team combo demands pace bounce swing utility allrounders

to each his own brother - this 11 of mine ready to take on any 11 in tests and one dayers

cant include people who are good inone format and bad in another

 

[Joseph Gomes]

It's very hard to argue that point. ICC rating trend for entire career when both players played at same time is a very good indicator of where they stand with each other.

ICC rating takes account of opposition, contrubution of players relative ot peers in each match and many other context. It's not biased, it's not subjective. It;s pure objective. It may not be perrfect at any one point, but for entire career we have,

MCgrath's majority of career had higher rating than peak rating of Wasim. Both played at the same time. You can nitpick ranting all you want, but when difference is so huge for both players playing at same time, it's futile to argue that Wasim was a better bowler than McGrath.

View attachment 84709

Wasim was never, ever, even close to McGrath in tests. They are not even in the same league. People overrate Wasim based on his ODI performance. Peak Waqar was much better than Wasim.

 

[Buffet]

Wasim was never, ever, even close to McGrath in tests. They are not even in the same league. People overrate Wasim based on his ODI performance. Peak Waqar was much better than Wasim.

I don't think that gap was big enough to saying that they were in totally different league.

I saw entire 90s. McGrath > Ambrose > Wasim = Donald > Waqar in the test format for me.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Good list by OP but add McGrath as well.

Sachin
McGrath
Wasim
Gilly
Warne

An argument for Viv can be made as well. He is rated among the top 3-4 cricketers of all-time.

Great coincidence originally I had McGrath in my list in.5 th place but last moment removed as it may have been the unfair to Hadlee,Imran or Lillee in that possible order.Mcgrath all but made my list.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Shane Warne is not a certainty in either format. Muralitharan was just as great while Saqlain was arguably superior in ODIs. Gilly is not a given in ODIs since there are better openers and better keeper-batsmen, although no better keeper-batsman who was an opener.

My picks would be:

1) Wasim
2) Imran
3) Sachin
4) McGrath

What about Viv Richards and Hadlee?Outstadung in both formats.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Shane Warne is not a certainty in either format. Muralitharan was just as great while Saqlain was arguably superior in ODIs. Gilly is not a given in ODIs since there are better openers and better keeper-batsmen, although no better keeper-batsman who was an opener.

My picks would be:

1) Wasim
2) Imran
3) Sachin
4) McGrath

No Viv Richards and Richard Hadlee outstanding in both formats?any reason?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

These players have more chance than any one else when it comes to make it to both all time XIs.

Viv
SRT
Wasim
Hadlee
McGrath


Gilly may be another name, but he is much below other 5 names. I can't think of another name which will have the same chance.

Why not Shane Warne?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

I can only think of 3 players
Sachin
Viv
Mcgrath


Wasim isn't a regular pick in tests. So he isn't a certainty.
Marshall, mcgrath, hadlee, ambrose, dale steyn are usually preferred over him in tests.

Why not Wasim?or Imran and Warne?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Tendulkar, Viv, Gilchrist, Wasim, and Warne.

Great choice.Viv also in tests?Better than Lara?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Sachin
Viv
McGrath

Even for my test XI - I have included players only from the 70s onwards.

Test XI

S Gavaskar
G Smith
V Richards
S Tendulkar
B Lara
A Gilchrist
I Khan (c)
S Warne
M Marshall
D Steyn
M Muralidharan

ODI XI

S Tendulkar
S Jayasuriya
V Kohli
V Richards
R Ponting
MS Dhoni (C)
L Klusener
K Dev
W Akram
S Mushtaq
G McGrath

Why no Wasim In tests Allrounder skill better than any pace bowler?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Solid teams.

Great teams.Why no Sobers In tests?or Bradman?Why not Gilchrist in ODI.s or Warne?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

For me it is and Ill try and go in batting order:

1. Viv Richards
2. Sachin Tendulkar
3. Ricky Ponting
4. Gary Sobers
5. Adam Gilchrist
6. Wasim Akram

I know Sobers didnt really have an ODI career but with his striking ability and bowling adaptability, he'd be a very modern ODI
I think Tendulkar and Akram are self explanatory while Viv was an ODI batsman before ODI batting is what it is today.

Gilly for me is simply the bets keeper bat ever so no point in not having him.

None of the all time great spinners are assured (Warne possibly in tests, Murali definitely in ODIs), while in the wings, Saqlain, Qadir and Kumble are biding their time.

Ponting, people tend to forget, had the most remarkable peak. ODI and test runs just about everywhere, a complete range of strokes and someone bowlers absolutely hated.

Great choices.What about Warne,McGrath,Imran and Hadlee?Why Ponting and not Lara ?Would not Bradman have also been striking?

 

[Buffet]

Why not Shane Warne?

Because I prefer Saqlain in ODI all time XI. In test XI, Murali was equally good as well.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Wasim was never, ever, even close to McGrath in tests. They are not even in the same league. People overrate Wasim based on his ODI performance. Peak Waqar was much better than Wasim.

Morally he is as arguably better with his all round ability and versatility.Great batsmen found him more lethal and he hardly got support from team mates in the field who spilled many catches of his bowling.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Tendulkar, Viv, Gilchrist, Wasim, and Warne.

Not McGrath?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Tendulkar is the only certainty and that is why he is called the GOAT.

Why not Warne,Gilly and Wasim? Or even Viv who was more impactful in peak era?

 

[Sidilicious]

Why no Wasim In tests Allrounder skill better than any pace bowler?

I wanted to choose 3 pace bowlers and 2 spinners. 1 of them had to be an allrounder. IMHO, Imran has been the best AR in Tests since 1970s (though Ian Botham is close second, as he was the best at performing at the same time). Since the 1970s, I believe that Steyn and Marshall have been the greatest pace bowlers. So there was no place for Wasim. Though I wont argue with anyone who chooses Wasim. They are all very close.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

He is not.

Viv's overall stature is exaggerated by his aggressive batting that best suited ODI cricket.

In tests his achievements pale in comparison to many batsmen.

Viv had a freakish reign in 1976. Post that he averaged 45 as a test batsman during 15 years till he retired in 1991. That's not extra ordinary.

In his peak Viv was the best batsmen after Bradman in tests from 1976-821Also remember incredible batting in Packer Wsc supertests when he annihilated great bowling.Remember what Lillee and Imran said about him.In peak more impactful than Sachin or Lara.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

There is nothing certain about that. Wasim was arguably better than Ambrose and McGrath and the only four three bowlers ahead of him were Marshall, Imran and Hadlee.

People forget that Wasim bowled more than 50% of his matches in Pakistan. That is a far harder prospect than bowling an equivalent amount on the lush, juicy pitches of South Africa and even Australia and West Indies, which were perfect for bowlers who utilized bounce.

Wasim being left-handed is part of his arsenal, just like McGrath being tall or Waqar having that slingy action. It is what made him Wasim. We have no way of telling if he would have been just as effective if he was a right-handed bowler.

Why Hadlee ahead of Wasim?Did not Wasim have more all round skill and versatility and considerably more effective on flat batting tracks?Hadlee often went on the defensive on placid surfaces.Infact McGrath was more adaptable.Infact McGrath a better choice than Hadlee. being arguably only behind Marshall and more intelligent than any paceman ever.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Shane Warne is not a certainty in either format. Muralitharan was just as great while Saqlain was arguably superior in ODIs. Gilly is not a given in ODIs since there are better openers and better keeper-batsmen, although no better keeper-batsman who was an opener.

My picks would be:

1) Wasim
2) Imran
3) Sachin
4) McGrath

Great choices.Why not Viv Richards?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

I don't think that gap was big enough to saying that they were in totally different league.

I saw entire 90s. McGrath > Ambrose > Wasim = Donald > Waqar in the test format for me.

Considering he played half his tests on flat pancakes Wasim was better than Ambrose and Dionald and in peak period Betty than McGrath.He had greater all round skill and versatility and the best batsmen found him the hardest to face be it Viv,Kallis or Lara.

 

[Bhaijaan]

In his peak Viv was the best batsmen after Bradman in tests from 1976-821Also remember incredible batting in Packer Wsc supertests when he annihilated great bowling.Remember what Lillee and Imran said about him.In peak more impactful than Sachin or Lara.

What peak? You mean 1976? Mohammed Yousuf had a better year than that.

From Jan 1, 1977 to his retirement in 1991, Viv Averaged 45-46 as a test batsman in those 14-15 years.

What is so spectacular about that? Please provide answer.

Lets stick to international cricket. I want no Kerry Packer **. Consider it a warning.

Thanks

-Bhaijaan

 

[Bhaijaan]

Why not Warne,Gilly and Wasim? Or even Viv who was more impactful in peak era?

Because :-

. Warne's place in ODI XI is not 100% certain. Murali and Saqi of Pak are big contenders to take his place

- Wasim might not make it as a bowler in tests. He doesn't feature too high in most test match ATG bowlers discussions.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Because :-

. Warne's place in ODI XI is not 100% certain. Murali and Saqi of Pak are big contenders to take his place

- Wasim might not make it as a bowler in tests. He doesn't feature too high in most test match ATG bowlers discussions.


-
Bhaijaan

Not only stats .assess impact on opponents like Lara or Kallis.He has been chosen by experts in more test all time teams than McGrath or even Imran.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

What peak? You mean 1976? Mohammed Yousuf had a better year than that.

From Jan 1, 1977 to his retirement in 1991, Viv Averaged 45-46 as a test batsman in those 14-15 years.

What is so spectacular about that? Please provide answer.

Lets stick to international cricket. I want no Kerry Packer **. Consider it a warning.

Thanks

-Bhaijaan

Never forget the outstanding standard In Wsc cricket, more competitive and challenging than conventional test cricket in view of the great players.Viv demoralised opponents mor than any batsmen ever.Remember the great bowlers he faced and his Phenomenal average from 1976-81.Imagine playing Lillee and Imran like spinners.

 

[Abdullah Rabbani]

My Joint Test And ODI 11 Would Be!
1: Viv Richards
2: Hashim Amla
3: Brian Lara
4: AB Deviliers
5: Javed Miandad
6: Adam Glichtrist
7: J Kallis
8: Imran Khan (c)
9: Shane Warne
10: Glenn McGrath
11: Waqar Younis

 

[Peshwa]

My Joint Test And ODI 11 Would Be!
1: Viv Richards
2: Hashim Amla
3: Brian Lara
4: AB Deviliers
5: Javed Miandad
6: Adam Glichtrist
7: J Kallis
8: Imran Khan (c)
9: Shane Warne
10: Glenn McGrath
11: Waqar Younis

Where is Younis Khan

 

[Buffet]

Considering he played half his tests on flat pancakes Wasim was better than Ambrose and Dionald

Then why Wasim did not do better outside Asia when compared to Asia? BTW Donald averages 20.XX in Asia.

and in peak period Betty than McGrath.He had greater all round skill and versatility and the best batsmen found him the hardest to face be it Viv,Kallis or Lara.

Harder to face for sure, but we are talking about performance. You are talking about Wasim's peak and him being better than McGrath. Well, why didn't Wasim got to rank 1 for even single day in his career? Simple reason is that better performing bowlers were always present during his long career.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Then why Wasim did not do better outside Asia when compared to Asia? BTW Donald averages 20.XX in Asia.



Harder to face for sure, but we are talking about performance. You are talking about Wasim's peak and him being better than McGrath. Well, why didn't Wasim got to rank 1 for even single day in his career? Simple reason is that better performing bowlers were always present during his long career.

Wasim still captured many more wickets in Asia.Interms of skill possibly the best ever.Hardly got support from fielders.In peak era better than Donald and Ambrose.Anyway it is not all about stats.

 

[Buffet]

Wasim still captured many more wickets in Asia.Interms of skill possibly the best ever.Hardly got support from fielders.In peak era better than Donald and Ambrose.Anyway it is not all about stats.

It's about stats with context. Everything else is just talk.

 

[Buffet]

Wasim still captured many more wickets in Asia.

You raised a point about Wasim not having home ground outside Asia. My question was simple, did he do better outside Asia or he did better in Asia?

 

[barah_admi]

Great choices.What about Warne,McGrath,Imran and Hadlee?Why Ponting and not Lara ?Would not Bradman have also been striking?

I already spoke about the spin choice, basically Warne COULD be more likely in tests and Murali in ODIs but none of that is a given for me, so I could not pick them. Same goes for the spinners just behind them in terms of all time rankings.

In terms of the allrounders, Imran KHan has the best shout BUT Sobers is already there and I'm not sure if a second all rounder is a necessity in the sides, again, we're looking at a player being picked no doubt in both formats. Hadlee, Botham, Dev, none of them make it because they aren't as great as Sobers or Khan.

Now McGrath was a tricky one. Astounding bowler across formats but again, if I'm making an XI for both formats, would I necessarily pick him all the time? Waqar, Marhsall, Holding, Garner and Lillee would have a shout ,as would a few others. I tried to be as cast iron with my choices as possibles, so maybes, no matter how great or how close, just can't make it in.

In terms of Ponting, he was simply the better all format batsman. I can not see it any other way.

Now to Bradman...I've often made the point that for me, it is always difficult to rate a player from an era which I consider pre-modern. We do not know his career sr, very little footage on his actual batting and too far removed from the ODI era (SObers picked on his all round greatness and proximity to the ODI game, especially in the county circuit).

 

[zulfiqar]

When I read the title, I immediately thought of three names: Gilchrist, Wasim Akram, Sachin. I would easily put Glen McGrath next, and put Murali right there with Warne after McGrath! The next on list would be Viv Richards. Also, I would really only consider cricketers in the "modern" era - 1975 and onwards since the ones before were untested and/or did not play (enough) ODIs.

I'm so surprised at the Imran Khan vs other all-rounders for comparison, the OP strictly asked someone who can do BOTH formats. If people think IK was poor at ODIs, I would argue the other all-rounders I've seen above were even poorer in tests (Klusener, Kapil, Flintoff above IK in tests? Give me a break!) IK and Kallis are the only elite ARs in discussion IMO.

The hardest task for me is two find two TEST-caliber openers that would also perform well in the ODI lineup! They would likely have to be demoted because Gilchrist/Sachin are both elite ODI openers. Because of this, guys that normally wouldn't make this list deserve a shout out: Saeed Anwar, Virender Sehwag and Mathew Hayden.

Test order: Anwar, Sehwag, Viv, Sachin, Ponting, Gilchrist, IK, Warne, Wasim, McGrath, Murali
ODIs order: Gilchrist, Sachin, Viv, Anwar, Ponting, Sehwag, IK, Warne, Wasim, McGrath, Murali

Not fully satisfied, but that test opener problem is the hardest one, as most elite test openers were not proven ODI players (I.e. the old English or WI openers, Gavaskar, etc.). But both Sehwag and Anwar have played in ODI line-ups without being the opener so I chose them!

 

[zulfiqar]

Just FYI, Imran Khan has a career batting ave. of 33.41 & career bowling ave. of 26.61 in ODIs. Let me know of a better ODI all-rounder that was in the same tier as Imran in tests.

Kapil Dev ODIs: 23.79 batting, 27.45 ODIs (strictly worse in both formats)
Lance Klusener ODIs: 41 batting, 29.95 bowling (tests: bat: 32, bowl: 38). With those test stats, he shouldn't have even had a test career, let alone for South Africa which have one of the most talented teams of his generation.

 

[moghul]

Virat Kohli

I thought this was a serious discussion.

 

[Sidilicious]

If I had to choose the same XI that would play both tests and ODIs, my team would be

M Hayden
G Smith/V Sehwag
S Tendulkar
V Richards
B Lara/R Ponting
A Gilchrist
I Khan (c)
W Akram
S Warne
M Muralitharan
G McGrath

With Gilly at 6 and Imran at 7, the ODI batting is slightly on the weaker side.

Test batting is solid, with Warne and Wasim at 8 and 9.

Bowling is again solid for both Tests and ODIs.

 

[Sidilicious]

Just FYI, Imran Khan has a career batting ave. of 33.41 & career bowling ave. of 26.61 in ODIs. Let me know of a better ODI all-rounder that was in the same tier as Imran in tests.

Kapil Dev ODIs: 23.79 batting, 27.45 ODIs (strictly worse in both formats)
Lance Klusener ODIs: 41 batting, 29.95 bowling (tests: bat: 32, bowl: 38). With those test stats, he shouldn't have even had a test career, let alone for South Africa which have one of the most talented teams of his generation.

The problem with Immy was that we was not excellent with the bat and ball at the same time. He was excellent with the ball initially, and then with the bat. IF you check the number of runs scored per test, was quite low in the beginning, and the number of wickets per test in the 2nd half was also low.

Someone like Ian Botham would score runs and take wickets at the same time.

Also, Kapil, despite a lower average maintained a very high batting SR. He was rated constantly the no.1 AR for 10 years. IK was not rated higher than him for 10 years.

For Tests only, I would choose IK.

For ODIs only, I would choose Kapil.

If I were to choose a combined team, I would choose IK.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Just FYI, Imran Khan has a career batting ave. of 33.41 & career bowling ave. of 26.61 in ODIs. Let me know of a better ODI all-rounder that was in the same tier as Imran in tests.

Kapil Dev ODIs: 23.79 batting, 27.45 ODIs (strictly worse in both formats)
Lance Klusener ODIs: 41 batting, 29.95 bowling (tests: bat: 32, bowl: 38). With those test stats, he shouldn't have even had a test career, let alone for South Africa which have one of the most talented teams of his generation.

The fact is that we are not choosing klusener for tests.He does'nt even come close to IK in tests.
In odis his stats are better than Imran,so Imran isn't a certainty in odis.
Also klusener's str rate was 90 and imran (73),we require lower order hitting and klusener would be apt for that.

 

[jeetu]

Good teams. My only issue would be that lack of a truly great third pacer/fifth bowler. Sobers and Flintoff might lose you some matches.

Fifth bowler is tests is a filler mostly. Sobers has 2 things going for him. Firstly being Left armer the variety is there. Also he can bowl as spinner or medium pacer , so ideal for all types of pitches.

In ODI's Flintoff was extremely underated A/R. English team during his time wasn't as good. For me he checks most parameters in ATG teams. He very narrowly edges out Kapil who was my second choice.

Matches 141
Runs 3,394
Batting average 32.01
Bat SR 88.82
100s/50s 3/18

Wickets 169
Bowling average 24.38
ER 4.39
SR 33.2

 

[Bhaijaan]

Just FYI, Imran Khan has a career batting ave. of 33.41 & career bowling ave. of 26.61 in ODIs. Let me know of a better ODI all-rounder that was in the same tier as Imran in tests.

Kapil Dev ODIs: 23.79 batting, 27.45 ODIs (strictly worse in both formats)
Lance Klusener ODIs: 41 batting, 29.95 bowling (tests: bat: 32, bowl: 38). With those test stats, he shouldn't have even had a test career, let alone for South Africa which have one of the most talented teams of his generation.

Kapil was the better batsman in both formats and by far in ODIs. Batting averages aren’t everything. Look at the number of not outs Imran got. There’s hardly 1-2 runs difference between the two per innings excluding not outs. If anything Kapil scoter his runs faster and had a greater impact on the game. Was a more imposing figure with the bat. Kapil was clutch.

You have to know how he batted against West Indies pace quartet in tests to judge him as a batsman. Kapil both with the bat and ball was by far the best of the Imran/Botham/Kapil/Hadlee against the West Indies.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Never forget the outstanding standard In Wsc cricket, more competitive and challenging than conventional test cricket in view of the great players.Viv demoralised opponents mor than any batsmen ever.Remember the great bowlers he faced and his Phenomenal average from 1976-81.Imagine playing Lillee and Imran like spinners.

Tell him how is a test batting average of 45 by Viv from 1977 to 1991 to be considered spectacular?

What is extra ordinary about a top batsman averaging 45 with the bat for 15 years.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Not McGrath?

McGrath won't make my ODI all-time XI. He was very good but I'd rather have someone like Wasim, Garner, Waqar, or even Donald ahead of him in limited overs cricket. Incidentally, I don't know if he's cert for the all-time test XI either.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Great choice.Viv also in tests?Better than Lara?

Yeah, I'd have Sir Viv ahead of Lara in all formats. If I wanted to shoehorn Lara in my test team, I'd drop Tendulkar.

 

[Last Monetarist]

I don't think that gap was big enough to saying that they were in totally different league.

I saw entire 90s. McGrath > Ambrose > Wasim = Donald > Waqar in the test format for me.

I saw the entirety of the 90s as well, and that is not true. Ambrose, Wasim, Donald, and Waqar all performed better than McGrath in the 90s. They took more wickets at a lower average and strike rate. McGrath came into his own after the turn of the century. Not denying that utimately he had a better career than those bowlers, but if I just took performance during the 90s as a criteria, McGrath would be below all those bowlers in the same league as someone like Courtney Walsh or Shaun Pollock.

 

[Bilal7]

It's very hard to argue that point. ICC rating trend for entire career when both players played at same time is a very good indicator of where they stand with each other.

ICC rating takes account of opposition, contrubution of players relative ot peers in each match and many other context. It's not biased, it's not subjective. It;s pure objective. It may not be perrfect at any one point, but for entire career we have,

MCgrath's majority of career had higher rating than peak rating of Wasim. Both played at the same time. You can nitpick ranting all you want, but when difference is so huge for both players playing at same time, it's futile to argue that Wasim was a better bowler than McGrath.

View attachment 84709

Poor analysis. These ICC ratings are a weak indicator since they suggest that Javed Miandad was a better ODI batsman in his prime than Sachin Tendulker at his best and Virat Kohli is a better test batsman in his prime than Sunil Gavasker at his best.

By watching all three and knowing the difficulties that Asian fast bowlers go through, Wasim is the better bowler than both Ambrose and McGrath.

 

[Bilal7]

What about Viv Richards and Hadlee?Outstadung in both formats.

Hadlee wasn't better than Imran, Wasim, McGrath or Garner in ODIs. He's the third best pace bowler of all time in tests, however. Viv is the GOAT in ODIs but did not enjoy the same stature in test cricket.

 

[Dios]

Tendulkar, McGrath, Sir Viv and Adam Gilchrist

 

[Ab Fan]

The order between McGrath, Ambrose and Wasim Would be for me: -

Tests: -

McGrath
Ambrose
Wasim

Odis: -

Wasim
McGrath
Ambrose

However, the difference isn't big between the three in tests IMO and due to Wasim's GOAT status in ODI, I would put him only behind McGrath among fast bowlers from their generation.

 

[Hitman]

Hadlee wasn't better than Imran, Wasim, McGrath or Garner in ODIs. He's the third best pace bowler of all time in tests, however. Viv is the GOAT in ODIs but did not enjoy the same stature in test cricket.

Hadlee wasn't better than Imran in ODI's? How is that?

 

[Bilal7]

Hadlee wasn't better than Imran in ODI's? How is that?

Imran is an all-rounder and as an all-rounder he was the better player. Wasim, McGrath and Garner were better pace bowlers. Additionally, you need at least one spinner so there is no place for Hadlee.

 

[Buffet]

Poor analysis. These ICC ratings are a weak indicator since they suggest that Javed Miandad was a better ODI batsman in his prime than Sachin Tendulker at his best and Virat Kohli is a better test batsman in his prime than Sunil Gavasker at his best.

Your conclusion about peak is a flawed one. It simply shows that Javed had 10-15 ODIs at same time better than SRT's 10-15 ODIs. Similarly, Kohli's 15 tests run are better than Sunil's 15 tests run. It's reflected in rating trend and there is nothing wrong in that. it doesn't show that javed had more skill or Kohli has more skill. It simply shows a run of 15 games....

Also, if you compare across era it can be misleading, but players playing in same era being consistently far below then other players then it's simply far fetched make a case for inferior player.

 

[Buffet]

I saw the entirety of the 90s as well, and that is not true. Ambrose, Wasim, Donald, and Waqar all performed better than McGrath in the 90s. They took more wickets at a lower average and strike rate. McGrath came into his own after the turn of the century. Not denying that utimately he had a better career than those bowlers, but if I just took performance during the 90s as a criteria, McGrath would be below all those bowlers in the same league as someone like Courtney Walsh or Shaun Pollock.

Walsh and Pollock were in different league if you are looking at performance only in 90s. Pollock's second half puts him down in pecking order, but he was fantastic in first half.

In fact Pollock was as good as any bowler if you are only talking about 90s.

Pollock in 90s:

38 tests - Avg 20 with 10 5-fers.

14 away test avg was also 20 with 4 5-fers.

His highest bowling average against any country was against SL and it was 28. Against all other countries he averaged 23 or below.


If you are putting McGrath in same league as Pollock in 90s then it's perfectly fine, but both were as good as any other bowler in 90s.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

Viv and Murali.

 

[amax]

Wasim
Waqar
Donald
Joel garner
Sachin
Viv
Mcgrath

these are some players good in both

 

[Hitman]

Imran is an all-rounder and as an all-rounder he was the better player. Wasim, McGrath and Garner were better pace bowlers. Additionally, you need at least one spinner so there is no place for Hadlee.

Yea, as player, yes. As an ODI bowler, not a chance.

 

[Justcrazy]

My Combined XI for Test as well as OD :

Grame Smith
J. Kallis
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian lara
Viv Richards
Adam GilChrist
Lance Klusner
Shane warne
Wasim Akram
Saqlain
MacGrath

 

[Bhaijaan]

I saw the entirety of the 90s as well, and that is not true. Ambrose, Wasim, Donald, and Waqar all performed better than McGrath in the 90s. They took more wickets at a lower average and strike rate. McGrath came into his own after the turn of the century. Not denying that utimately he had a better career than those bowlers, but if I just took performance during the 90s as a criteria, McGrath would be below all those bowlers in the same league as someone like Courtney Walsh or Shaun Pollock.

This has to be the most worst post of the week.

Glad someone already addressed it destroyed your stupid claim.

Pollock, McGrath were THE two standout all format bowlers of the late 90s/early noughties. In their first burst alone they decided more matches than any of Wasim/Donald/Walsh.

I would say Ambrose in the early 90s, followed by Wasim/Waqar/Donald in mid 90s and then McGrath/Pollock

Worth noting the two Ws heavily relied on late bursts with the reverse swinging ball to turn matches around DRAMATICALLY picking mostly middle order/tailendere but purely at the new ball they weren’t nearly as threatening as McGrath/Pollock were. Classic example being 2003 centurion game where both Ws sprayed the new ball around with all the experience in the world and got smashed. That’s not something a McGrath/Pollock would have let happen.

 

[Last Monetarist]

This has to be the most worst post of the week.

Glad someone already addressed it destroyed your stupid claim.

Pollock, McGrath were THE two standout all format bowlers of the late 90s/early noughties. In their first burst alone they decided more matches than any of Wasim/Donald/Walsh.

I would say Ambrose in the early 90s, followed by Wasim/Waqar/Donald in mid 90s and then McGrath/Pollock

Worth noting the two Ws heavily relied on late bursts with the reverse swinging ball to turn matches around DRAMATICALLY picking mostly middle order/tailendere but purely at the new ball they weren’t nearly as threatening as McGrath/Pollock were. Classic example being 2003 centurion game where both Ws sprayed the new ball around with all the experience in the world and got smashed. That’s not something a McGrath/Pollock would have let happen.

Congratulations for effectively restating what I wrote. Nowhere did I claim that McGrath wasn't the standout bowler of the noughties.

Here are the statistics for the 1990s : http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?class=1;id=199;type=decade

Ambrose, Wasim, Donald, and Waqar all took more wickets at a better strike rate and lower average than McGrath. McGrath wasn't far off them, but anyone claiming he was better than them is deluded.

I don't know what the 2003 World Cup has to do with anything given that Wasim and Waqar were on their last legs and shouldn't have been playing.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Walsh and Pollock were in different league if you are looking at performance only in 90s. Pollock's second half puts him down in pecking order, but he was fantastic in first half.

In fact Pollock was as good as any bowler if you are only talking about 90s.

Pollock in 90s:

38 tests - Avg 20 with 10 5-fers.

14 away test avg was also 20 with 4 5-fers.

His highest bowling average against any country was against SL and it was 28. Against all other countries he averaged 23 or below.


If you are putting McGrath in same league as Pollock in 90s then it's perfectly fine, but both were as good as any other bowler in 90s.

Agreed, they were both very good. But my point was that no one can reasonably claim they were better than the other four bowlers if you took performances in the 90s as the sole consideration. Most fans and players would have chosen Ambrose, Wasim, and Donald ahead of Pollock and McGrath.

 

[Canford Cliffs]

Don't be ridiculous. He does not make the ATG ODI XI ahead of Ponting and de Villiers just yet, and is not among the top 100 test cricketers, let alone top XI.

36th ODI century already with an avg close to 60 and he is not even 30. Has he not surpassed ABDV/Ponting yet?

 

[Buffet]

Agreed, they were both very good. But my point was that no one can reasonably claim they were better than the other four bowlers if you took performances in the 90s as the sole consideration. Most fans and players would have chosen Ambrose, Wasim, and Donald ahead of Pollock and McGrath.

If you strictly go by starting in 90s and ending in 90s then no bowler had better aggregate numbers than Ambrose, but that's simply due to how his career phase was exactly matching 90s. Most bowlers take 1-2 years to perform to their potential in international cricket. It was true for Ambrose and it was true for Wassim and it was also true for McGrath.

Pollock and McGrath didn't start early enough. Just after few years of debuting, both were performing better than pretty much any other bowler in 90s. Since they didn't start in early part of 90s, we can look at stats starting after 1994 and ending in 1999

5 lowest average bowlers from 1995 - 1999




.

5 Highest wicket takers from 1995 - 1999



So yes, statistically they won't be able to match due to starting their career in mid 90s, but that's the timing issue and not the class issue.

 

[Buffet]

Ambrose did appear in previous list I posted. Also for first half of 90s,


5 lowest average in first half of 90s:


5 highest wicket takers in first half of 90s:


Clearly, Ambrose was the only bowler who appeared in lists in all parts of 90s. Ambrose has the best and consistent record in 90s, but he did start in 80s and ended his career immediately after 90s.

It's just not possible for bowlers to match the same stats if they debut in middle of 90s. McGrath and Pollock did have as good stats as anyone in second half of 90s and that was after 1-2 years of debuting. It's safe to say that McGrath and Pollock were performing closer to Ambrose than Walsh in 90s.

 

[Last Monetarist]

If you strictly go by starting in 90s and ending in 90s then no bowler had better aggregate numbers than Ambrose, but that's simply due to how his career phase was exactly matching 90s. Most bowlers take 1-2 years to perform to their potential in international cricket. It was true for Ambrose and it was true for Wassim and it was also true for McGrath.

Pollock and McGrath didn't start early enough. Just after few years of debuting, both were performing better than pretty much any other bowler in 90s. Since they didn't start in early part of 90s, we can look at stats starting after 1994 and ending in 1999

5 lowest average bowlers from 1995 - 1999

View attachment 84737


.

5 Highest wicket takers from 1995 - 1999
View attachment 84739


So yes, statistically they won't be able to match due to starting their career in mid 90s, but that's the timing issue and not the class issue.

Basically what that highlights is that Allan Donald was the best fast bowler playing in the nineties, which kinda tallies in with my own subjective impression when I saw all those bowlers live while they were toiling on the graveyard pitches in Pakistan.

I agree with the timing difference: Ambrose, Waqar and Wasim were at their best in the first half of the nineties. Both Wasim and Waqar had faded by the end of that decade. But there is still no conclusive evidence either way that McGrath was better than any of them.

 

[zulfiqar]

Kapil was the better batsman in both formats and by far in ODIs. Batting averages aren’t everything. Look at the number of not outs Imran got. There’s hardly 1-2 runs difference between the two per innings excluding not outs. If anything Kapil scoter his runs faster and had a greater impact on the game. Was a more imposing figure with the bat. Kapil was clutch.

You have to know how he batted against West Indies pace quartet in tests to judge him as a batsman. Kapil both with the bat and ball was by far the best of the Imran/Botham/Kapil/Hadlee against the West Indies.

So the question is that you have to play a best of 3 test series and a best of 3 odi series with the same squad and both need to be won. Will you go with Kapil or Imran or Klusener (lol)?

 

[Buffet]

So the question is that you have to play a best of 3 test series and a best of 3 odi series with the same squad and both need to be won. Will you go with Kapil or Imran or Klusener (lol)?

IK by a margin.

 

[Ted123]

That's fun.

Gordon Greenidge
Brian Lara
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Ricky Ponting
Imran Khan
Gilchrist (wkt)
Wasim Akram
Shane Warne
Muttiah Muralitharan
Glenn McGrath