Why Afghanistan should recognize the Durand Line

[Artless Dodges]

Afghan officials have at times accused Pakistan of being less than honest in pushing the Afghan Taliban for talks with Kabul. Before making such statements, those same officials should also try to understand Pakistan’s deep concerns about Afghanistan’s stance on their common border. At present, Afghanistan does not officially recognize the international border with Pakistan. Instead, it has territorial claims on areas stretching from the Afghan-Pakistan border to the Indus River, all told comprising nearly 60 percent of Pakistani territory.

This border dispute has its roots in the nineteenth century, when Pakistan was part of India and India was a British colony. The British imposed the 2640 km borderline on the Amir of Afghanistan in 1893 in a bid to strengthen the former’s control over the northern parts of India. The agreement was signed between Sir Mortimer Durand, the Indian Foreign Secretary at the time, and Amir Abdur Rahman Khan in Kabul. The line is thus known as the Durand Line, and runs through Pashtun territory.

According to the Durand Line agreement, Afghanistan relinquished a few districts, including Swat, Chitral and Chageh, although it gained other areas, Nuristan and Asmar, for instance, which it had historically not controlled. The agreement, at least on paper, for the first time demarcated where the Indo-Afghan border started and ended. Before the Durand Line agreement, both India and Afghanistan would make incursions into each other’s domain of influence, frequently sparking border tensions.

In contrast to many historical accounts, Afghanistan did recognize the Durand Line as an international border. Abdur Rahman Khan’s successor, Amir Habibullah Khan, in 1905 signed a new agreement with Britain confirming the legality of the Durand Line. More importantly, article 5 of the Anglo-Afghan Treaty of 1919, on the basis of which Afghanistan reclaimed its independence, says that Afghanistan accepted all previously agreed border arrangements with India. Unlike the previous two agreements, the Anglo-Afghan Treaty was not imposed by Britain. Afghanistan as an independent state agreed to recognize the Durand Line as an international border.

After the founding of Pakistan in 1947, Afghanistan demanded that Pashtuns living on the Pakistani side of the Durand Line be given the right to self-determination. Unsurprisingly, both Britain and Pakistan refused. In response, the Afghan government then began to ignore the Durand Line and instead assert claims over territories that lay between the line and the Indus River.

As a consequence, relations with Pakistan became tense, and this in turn influenced U.S.-Afghan relations in the 1950s and 1960s. Once Pakistan struck an arms deal with the U.S., Kabul realized that the balance of power between Pakistan and Afghanistan had shifted in favor of Pakistan. Hence, in the 1950s Afghanistan, too, approached Washington seeking military assistance and arms sales.

The U.S. demanded that Afghanistan improve its relations with Pakistan and join the Central Treaty Organization (CENTO), of which Pakistan was a founding member, to contain the Soviet Union. Given its location on the Soviet border, Afghanistan declined. In the meantime, Kabul needed modern arms to balance Pakistan’s growing military power. So it turned to the Soviet Union.

Moscow willingly sold arms to Afghanistan and agreed to train Afghan military personnel. As time went by, this dependence on the Soviet Union increased. Estimates show that the Soviet Union gave Afghanistan $2.5 billion in military and economic aid between 1953 and 1978. In addition, thousands of Afghans went to military schools in the Soviet Union between 1953 and 1978—the very officers who staged two coups in 1973 and 1978, paving the way for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979.

Over the last several decades Afghanistan has suffered enormously from the Durand Line tensions. Afghanistan’s Cold War relations with the former Soviet Union ultimately led to invasion by the Red Army. Pakistan has tried to install a client regime in Kabul. Thousands of terrorists have crossed the Durand Line from Pakistan over the last decade and killed large numbers of Afghans. The Pakistani army has shelled areas in eastern Afghanistan, claiming they were shelling Pakistani territory.

Pakistan has been reluctant to engage honestly with Afghanistan on any issue, from trade to peace talks, because of a lack of trust. The Afghan government loses revenue each year as thousands of people—mainly Afghans—illegally cross the border without a visa, avoiding taxes. Tons of illegal goods are smuggled across the border annually, a further loss for the Afghanistan economy.

Many Afghans still dream—Pashtuns in particular—that one day they might reclaim the territories their forefathers lost between the Durand Line and the Indus River. That, of course, is unrealistic: the country lacks the political, economic and military means to pursue any such claim. At any rate, the 30 million Pakistani Pashtuns would appear to have little motivation to join the 15 million Afghan Pashtuns. For more than half a century, Pashtuns have played significant roles in civilian and military life in Pakistan. Why leave that for a barely functioning Afghanistan?

There are multiple examples of ethnic groups living in two or more countries. Kurds, Balochis, Tajiks, Germans, to name a few, live in two or more countries. Afghans must recognize and embrace the fact that the same ethnic group can live in more than one country.

The new Afghan president taking office in the spring should immediately review Afghanistan’s foreign policy toward Pakistan. The time has come for Afghans to once again recognize the Durand Line as the international border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Doing so would bring an end to the protracted border dispute with Pakistan, a precondition for real Pakistani cooperation in the Afghan peace process.

Having recognized the Durand Line, Afghanistan should immediately demarcate the border and fence it. This would prevent Taliban incursions and help control both smuggling and illegal flows of people. As an added benefit, the Pakistan military would no longer have the justification to shell Afghan villages once the fences are in place.

Arwin Rahi is a Fulbright fellow at Texas A&M University’s George Bush School of Government and Public Service. He worked as an adviser to the Parwan governor in 2012-13, and has an MA in politics and security from OSCE Academy with a focus on Central Asia and Afghanistan.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/02/why-the-durand-line-matters/

Interesting article thought I'd share. Although Pakistan has done more than its fair share of interfering in Afghanistan, Afghans have more than generously returned the favor.

 

[Mohsin]

Brace yourself

 

[Artless Dodges]

Brace yourself

?

 

[amax]

our KPK is too diverse to make any linguistic/ethnic claim over it from across border there are Pushtuns, Hindku, Chitral+Kalash People and in future there might be influx of Hunzai/ Balti /People from Ishkuman valley etc from east for opportunities/migration etc, it is diverse and in future will become more diverse.

 

[Mamoon]

Pashtuns of KPK have as much affinity towards Afghanistan as we have towards let's say Bangladesh which is practically, zero. This region belongs to Afghanistan in their dreams only and we hope that our province becomes Afghan free as soon as possible.

What are the refugees doing in a foreign country now when their own country is stable enough to be lived in? They should be driven out.

Afghanistan owe their entire existence to us and they don't even acknowledge it. We should cut all ties with them, they are our real enemies.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Afghans are some of the nicest people out there and deserve a peaceful sovereign state. They are so nice that even if my Mahabharta dream is accomplished, i would grant them sovereignty, provided they reconstruct the Budha statues and lend us fast bowlers. :l

 

[Mohsin]

indians don't ruin another thread with your 'Aman ka Asha' trollng

You guys are seriously starting to ruin so many threads

 

[Myrmidon]

Pashtuns of KPK have as much affinity towards Afghanistan as we have towards let's say Bangladesh which is practically, zero. This region belongs to Afghanistan in their dreams only and we hope that our province becomes Afghan free as soon as possible.

What are the refugees doing in a foreign country now when their own country is stable enough to be lived in? They should be driven out.

Afghanistan owe their entire existence to us and they don't even acknowledge it. We should cut all ties with them, they are our real enemies.

Owe their existence to Pakistan? technically Pakistan owes its existence to the lands annexed from Afghanistan and India, if you were to realistically look at it.

That country could have been something else if progressive men like Dr Najibullah and Daud Khan were not murdered and a bunch of regressive bearded weirdos had not took their place. They destroyed an entire nation in the name of islam, albeit their own warped version of it.

Also if Pashtuns have zero affinity towards Afghanistan why do well known singers from Khyber Pukhtunkhwa constantly sing praises & songs about Afghanistan? If you could answer that, it would be nice

 

[amax]

Owe their existence to Pakistan? technically Pakistan owes its existence to the lands annexed from Afghanistan and India, if you were to realistically look at it.

That country could have been something else if progressive men like Dr Najibullah and Daud Khan were not murdered and a bunch of regressive bearded weirdos had not took their place. They destroyed an entire nation in the name of islam, albeit their own warped version of it.

Also if Pashtuns have zero affinity towards Afghanistan why do well known singers from Khyber Pukhtunkhwa constantly sing praises & songs about Afghanistan? If you could answer that, it would be nice

still Pak's importance to Afghanistan cant be denied, look at map and try to find the shortest sea route for land locked country.

 

[Mohsin]

'Annexed'

Interesting

 

[amax]

Owe their existence to Pakistan? technically Pakistan owes its existence to the lands annexed from Afghanistan and India, if you were to realistically look at it.

That country could have been something else if progressive men like Dr Najibullah and Daud Khan were not murdered and a bunch of regressive bearded weirdos had not took their place. They destroyed an entire nation in the name of islam, albeit their own warped version of it.

Also if Pashtuns have zero affinity towards Afghanistan why do well known singers from Khyber Pukhtunkhwa constantly sing praises & songs about Afghanistan? If you could answer that, it would be nice

PAk is natural ally of Israel Btw Pak owes its existence to areas defined by socioeconomic of Indus, there is good probability that Peshawar might have more in common with Multan than Kabul,

 

[Myrmidon]

'Annexed'

Interesting

Considering it was him who signed that treaty

 

[Myrmidon]

PAk is natural ally of Israel Btw Pak owes its existence to areas defined by socioeconomic of Indus, there is good probability that Peshawar might have more in common with Multan than Kabul,

Culturally, genetically and linguistically, Peshawar has more in common with Kabul.

Pashtun and Tajik also are more closely related, (genetically) than Punjabi are to Pashtun

 

[Mohsin]

But we didnt appropriate any land

 

[Bhaijaan]

indians don't ruin another thread with your 'Aman ka Asha' trollng

You guys are seriously starting to ruin so many threads

I would happily leave if any of my Afghan brothers asks me to. For i would listen to the language of love than the language of hatred.

 

[Mohsin]

Ironic...hate (however sugar coated or disguised) is still hate

Funny thing is you used to be an alright poster before you started trying (trying way too hard btw) to troll

 

[Bhaijaan]

Ironic...hate (however sugar coated or disguised) is still hate

Funny thing is you used to be an alright poster before you started trying (trying way too hard btw) to troll

I am the same old loving person, brother. You are just letting hatred consume you. My AmanKiAsha doors will remain open to you, always. Its my vachan.

 

[thelandofthebravepeople]

Mohsin the guy who try to be fake Pathan and have learned a couple of words or two. Living in UK, Big nose, and think he knows more about Pakhtuns/Afghans then us.

The guy think we are Pakistanis lol. Half our families don't even understand the official language of Pakistan hahaha.

There is no doubt we want to be united again or have an independent country. Of course it will become reality one day. Just a question of time.
The Baloch's hates Pakistan even more...
The guy has one thing he always brings in these debate. But the people of KPK voted to become part of Pakistan. Waiting for that one.

Remember these lands are occupied! Once serious revolution starts there won't be any legal hurdles.

 

[Mohsin]

mohsin the guy who try to be fake pathan and have learned a couple of words or two. Living in uk, big nose, and think he knows more about pakhtuns/afghans then us.

The guy think we are pakistanis lol. Half our families don't even understand the official language of pakistan hahaha.

There is no doubt we want to be united again or have an independent country. Of course it will become reality one day. Just a question of time.
The baloch's hates pakistan even more...
The guy has one thing he always brings in these debate. But the people of kpk voted to become part of pakistan. Waiting for that one.

Remember these lands are occupied! Once serious revolution starts there won't be any legal hurdles.

ok

Anyways we can't all have cute little button noses like you, just as we can't all be as eloquent and classy as you.
Btw do make your mind up...one day I hate Pathan's, the next I 'try to be fake Pathan' (there was no need for the use of 'fake' btw)

 

[Ind-yeah]

Afghans are some of the nicest people out there and deserve a peaceful sovereign state. They are so nice that even if my Mahabharta dream is accomplished, i would grant them sovereignty, provided they reconstruct the Budha statues and lend us fast bowlers. :l

 

[ShaazE]

Pashtuns of KPK have as much affinity towards Afghanistan as we have towards let's say Bangladesh which is practically, zero. This region belongs to Afghanistan in their dreams only and we hope that our province becomes Afghan free as soon as possible.

What are the refugees doing in a foreign country now when their own country is stable enough to be lived in? They should be driven out.

Afghanistan owe their entire existence to us and they don't even acknowledge it. We should cut all ties with them, they are our real enemies.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Mohsin the guy who try to be fake Pathan and have learned a couple of words or two. Living in UK, Big nose, and think he knows more about Pakhtuns/Afghans then us.

The guy think we are Pakistanis lol. Half our families don't even understand the official language of Pakistan hahaha.

There is no doubt we want to be united again or have an independent country. Of course it will become reality one day. Just a question of time.
The Baloch's hates Pakistan even more...
The guy has one thing he always brings in these debate. But the people of KPK voted to become part of Pakistan. Waiting for that one.

Remember these lands are occupied! Once serious revolution starts there won't be any legal hurdles.

Come the revolution brother

 

[Mamoon]

Owe their existence to Pakistan? technically Pakistan owes its existence to the lands annexed from Afghanistan and India, if you were to realistically look at it.

That country could have been something else if progressive men like Dr Najibullah and Daud Khan were not murdered and a bunch of regressive bearded weirdos had not took their place. They destroyed an entire nation in the name of islam, albeit their own warped version of it.

Also if Pashtuns have zero affinity towards Afghanistan why do well known singers from Khyber Pukhtunkhwa constantly sing praises & songs about Afghanistan? If you could answer that, it would be nice

Because there are people who suffer from identity crisis but they don't represent the whole region. Unfortunately, the Pashtun nationalist society is pretty bare.

 

[Myrmidon]

He is just trying to impress the other posters on here by distancing himself from nationalism and Afghans, going by the views I read of this guy on facebook on a post this one time, which I still have saved for my own entertainment purposes every time he says something like this

 

[Mamoon]

Mohsin the guy who try to be fake Pathan and have learned a couple of words or two. Living in UK, Big nose, and think he knows more about Pakhtuns/Afghans then us.

The guy think we are Pakistanis lol. Half our families don't even understand the official language of Pakistan hahaha.

There is no doubt we want to be united again or have an independent country. Of course it will become reality one day. Just a question of time.
The Baloch's hates Pakistan even more...
The guy has one thing he always brings in these debate. But the people of KPK voted to become part of Pakistan. Waiting for that one.

Remember these lands are occupied! Once serious revolution starts there won't be any legal hurdles.

) ) )

Please tell us more.

 

[Myrmidon]

Mohsin the guy who try to be fake Pathan and have learned a couple of words or two. Living in UK, Big nose, and think he knows more about Pakhtuns/Afghans then us.

The guy think we are Pakistanis lol. Half our families don't even understand the official language of Pakistan hahaha.

There is no doubt we want to be united again or have an independent country. Of course it will become reality one day. Just a question of time.
The Baloch's hates Pakistan even more...
The guy has one thing he always brings in these debate. But the people of KPK voted to become part of Pakistan. Waiting for that one.

Remember these lands are occupied! Once serious revolution starts there won't be any legal hurdles.

Mara, Pakhtoons have long noses rarely see a Pakhtoon with a small nose lol

 

[Mamoon]

He is just trying to impress the other posters on here by distancing himself from nationalism and Afghans, going by the views I read of this guy on facebook on a post, he displayed more racism and sexism than I am capable of

Sorry Mamoon, needs to be said, unless of course you are posing to be that guy on here

I oppose racism against all races. I have put down plenty of Punjabis and Sindhis who have been prejudiced towards us. Its just that I don't have a victimized mentality.

If they laugh at us, so do we.

I am proud to be a Pashtun, but I 200% allegiance to my country. I have no desire or whim to become a part of a country where my forefathers arrived from centuries ago and if Afghans think that KPK belongs to them well they should keep dreaming.

 

[Mamoon]

Yes, please tell me more about how my life will become much better by impressing and lying to a bunch of anonymous people over the internet whose significance and importance in my life don't transcend beyond a few words in a post.

The people who impact my life and are important to me are impressed already.

Pretty weak argument on your part, expected better from a seasoned poster like you.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I can sort of see why there would be this romantic notion of Pashtun areas being united, but the problem is Pashtuns have spread to so many other parts of Pakistan and show no signs of wanting to stay put in Afghanistan even if the Durand Line vanished overnight. You also have Bengal divided plus Kashmir and Punjab. \how would you go about wiping out all these lines dividing these countries?

 

[thelandofthebravepeople]

My kher you are pakhtun

 

[Mamoon]

My kher you are pakhtun

If you and a few others represent what a Pashtun is, I would like to stamp this title with my foot. Make your country your identity, not your ethnicity.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I oppose racism against all races. I have put down plenty of Punjabis and Sindhis who have been prejudiced towards us. Its just that I don't have a victimized mentality.

If they laugh at us, so do we.

Good for you. Racism is usually prevalent in ignorant societies, they deserve pity rather than give them any power by feeling hurt.

 

[thelandofthebravepeople]

If you and a few others represent what a Pashtun is, I would like to stamp this title with my foot. Make your country your identity, not your ethnicity.

You don't deserve it.

 

[Mamoon]

Good for you. Racism is usually prevalent in ignorant societies, they deserve pity rather than give them any power by feeling hurt.

We draw attentions towards us ourselves and then complain for the sake of it.

Some Pashtuns just never get their thick heads around the fact that your nationality trumps your ethnicity. After all that is what a nationality is about.

A unification under one umbrella. If you keep plugging holes in that umbrella, you don't have a right to complain.

Again, it takes two hands to clap but again, we haven't done anything to help our case.

 

[thelandofthebravepeople]

He is just trying to impress the other posters on here by distancing himself from nationalism and Afghans, going by the views I read of this guy on facebook on a post this one time, which I still have saved for my own entertainment purposes every time he says something like this

Hard to find a more clueless guy.

 

[Mamoon]

You don't deserve it.

True, I don't because my priority is to do something constructive for Pakistan one day, rather than alienate myself because of my ethnicity.

 

[thelandofthebravepeople]

True, I don't because my priority is to do something constructive for Pakistan one day, rather than alienate myself because of my ethnicity.

"Good job kid" ... "Pat yourself on the shoulder"

 

[Myrmidon]

Yes, please tell me more about how my life will become much better by impressing and lying to a bunch of anonymous people over the internet whose significance and importance in my life don't transcend beyond a few words in a post.

The people who impact my life and are important to me are impressed already.

Pretty weak argument on your part, expected better from a seasoned poster like you.

I like you as a poster, I just find that aspect annoying, you put down nearly everything about your own area, people, culture,language and even food. It does appear most of the time that you are just trying to impress some people on here that have a habit of saying something inflammatory then ganging up on us.

What you said about KPK is 100% correct though, I have no allegiance towards Afghanistan or Pakistan, perfectly happy telling people I am from Khyber Pukhtunkhwa when they ask me or Ireland. But unlike you I do believe in the Lar Aw Bar, Yaw Pukhtoon, Yaw Afghan, by blood, race, language, history, culture, we are all Afghan, but now those people living in KPK have Pakistani nationality. So it annoys me when people who have availed of the education there, medical care, practically their livelihood suddenly hate the country. Also not centuries Mamoon, your family pre 1947 would have called themselves Afghan, not Pakistani right? because Pakistan did not exist, only ideologically but Pashtunistan is also an ideology yet people will easily dismiss it.


This thread is perfect for this discussion though, I hope people keep it civil.

 

[King Cobra]

I can sort of see why there would be this romantic notion of Pashtun areas being united, but the problem is Pashtuns have spread to so many other parts of Pakistan and show no signs of wanting to stay put in Afghanistan even if the Durand Line vanished overnight. You also have Bengal divided plus Kashmir and Punjab. \how would you go about wiping out all these lines dividing these countries?

Makes you wonder what came into existence after these so many divisions.

Pakistan came into existence after the Division of Punjab, Bengal, Expulsion of Hindus from Sindh, Kashmir and Pushtun territory.

A Nation build on dividing so many people and regions .

Doomed to fail one day.

 

[Mamoon]

I like you as a poster, I just find that aspect annoying, you put down nearly everything about your own area, people, culture,language and even food. It does appear most of the time that you are just trying to impress some people on here that have a habit of saying something inflammatory then ganging up on us.

What you said about KPK is 100% correct though, I have no allegiance towards Afghanistan or Pakistan, perfectly happy telling people I am from Khyber Pukhtunkhwa when they ask me or Ireland. But unlike you I do believe in the Lar Aw Bar, Yaw Pukhtoon, Yaw Afghan, by blood, race, language, history, culture, we are all Afghan, but now those people living in KPK have Pakistani nationality. So it annoys me when people who have availed of the education there, medical care, practically their livelihood suddenly hate the country. Also not centuries Mamoon, your family pre 1947 would have called themselves Afghan, not Pakistani right? because Pakistan did not exist, only ideologically but Pashtunistan is also an ideology yet people will easily dismiss it.


This thread is perfect for this discussion though, I hope people keep it civil.

I apologize if you got offended and I don't hate my culture at all. Its just that I completely despise the notion that KPK belongs to Afghanistan and Pashtuns are Afghanis. No I don't agree with it at all and if such a dreaded day comes where KPK is merged with Afghanistan, that'd be the last day I step foot in this region.

I don't want to be a person who puts his ethnicity over his country. I don't have a problem with Afghanis desiring to have KPK but when Pakistanis make such comments, it really disappoints me and I am not talking about any individual here. Just generally and such people can actually make you despise the culture and Pakhtun wali itself.

Khapa nashay, pregda bas. Let's leave it here.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Makes you wonder what came into existence after these so many divisions.

Pakistan came into existence after the Division of Punjab, Bengal, Expulsion of Hindus from Sindh, Kashmir and Pushtun territory.

A Nation build on dividing so many people and regions .

Doomed to fail one day.

What will happen when the nation fails as per your prediction? Will Punjab and Kashmir fall into India's lap? We already see that wasn't the case with Bangladesh. How come?

 

[ahmedzee]

indians don't ruin another thread with your 'Aman ka Asha' trollng

You guys are seriously starting to ruin so many threads

Bro...I understand your frustration, hence why I hardly post in such threads cuz posters like FC, CJ, and others just join a thread to troll. Funny thing is one of them was a mod and used to be a quality poster. Now I feel a 2nd grader is typing, no offense.

 

[Saeed]

Will Afghanistan also take their refugee brothers living along the roads in Punjab?

 

[amax]

Makes you wonder what came into existence after these so many divisions.

Pakistan came into existence after the Division of Punjab, Bengal, Expulsion of Hindus from Sindh, Kashmir and Pushtun territory.

A Nation build on dividing so many people and regions .

Doomed to fail one day.

problem with your fascination is that your prediction dont look viable, will the people of that nation join its neighbor in east where hundred millions of poors in overpopulated northern states with highest teeming/open defecation rates will clog its fertile plains and valleys or will they join land locked/rugged west? interesting scenario this.

 

[ahamedirshad123]

indians don't ruin another thread with your 'Aman ka Asha' trollng

You guys are seriously starting to ruin so many threads

Captain isn't an Indian

 

[mithun_minhas]

Mamoon bhai seems to be on a mission to make everyone his enemy.

First he criticizes Pak cricket team and even blasts them in every posts.

Now he is alienating himself from Pashtuns.

 

[Myrmidon]

indians don't ruin another thread with your 'Aman ka Asha' trollng

You guys are seriously starting to ruin so many threads

So he is trolling because he did not come here to bash Afghans and also not agree with the rest of you dudes?

 

[Fallen King]

I like you as a poster, I just find that aspect annoying, you put down nearly everything about your own area, people, culture,language and even food. It does appear most of the time that you are just trying to impress some people on here that have a habit of saying something inflammatory then ganging up on us.

What you said about KPK is 100% correct though, I have no allegiance towards Afghanistan or Pakistan, perfectly happy telling people I am from Khyber Pukhtunkhwa when they ask me or Ireland. But unlike you I do believe in the Lar Aw Bar, Yaw Pukhtoon, Yaw Afghan, by blood, race, language, history, culture, we are all Afghan, but now those people living in KPK have Pakistani nationality. So it annoys me when people who have availed of the education there, medical care, practically their livelihood suddenly hate the country. Also not centuries Mamoon, your family pre 1947 would have called themselves Afghan, not Pakistani right? because Pakistan did not exist, only ideologically but Pashtunistan is also an ideology yet people will easily dismiss it.


This thread is perfect for this discussion though, I hope people keep it civil.

Pakistan border will be extended to great measures. There will be time that not only that border extends to POSWAN, but also, Kashmir and Afghanistan might become part of Pakistan - new Pakistan as part of Khalifa - as it is waiting for ruler; Imam Mahdi (A.S).

If i were you, i would give up the ideas of Pukhtoonistan or whatever it is. The concept of Nationalism will fall, and that includes Pukhtoonistan.

Pakistan is a Muslim nation; a platform for everyone, Balochi, Sindhi, Punjabi, Pukhtoon, Hazara, Kashmiri and everyone in it including non-Muslim. The land that built on this purpose despite of facing crises, is going to last longer.

 

[blinding light]

Interesting read, and even more interesting comments, here.

Mamoon - I really do want to know, is your sentiment truly what is echoed in Peshawar and other KPK areas? I haven't been there myself.

As for the Pashtuns, they have integrated socially in Punjab - and in Sindh as well, just that there are some factions creating trouble in Karachi.

This dream of the old Afghanistan with Pashtun areas really does seem like some weird, far-off fairytale. Minimal chances of that happening.

 

[Mohsin]

Makes you wonder what came into existence after these so many divisions.

Pakistan came into existence after the Division of Punjab, Bengal, Expulsion of Hindus from Sindh, Kashmir and Pushtun territory.

A Nation build on dividing so many people and regions .

Doomed to fail one day.

OK

This thread is perfect for this discussion though, I hope people keep it civil.

Yeah your friend kinda ruined that with his random comments (it seems he can even bring up random points about my facial features without even having seen or met me).

So he is trolling because he did not come here to bash Afghans and also not agree with the rest of you dudes?

Yes my comment is based on one certain comment he made in one certain thread. Not like I've eversaid it in other threads and you've quoted those...and who's bashing afghans? When did/have I based afghans?
Its nice how you pick and choose posts...someone can say random rubbish and you'll quote it making a joke with him and others you quote with thesame 'yeah you hate certainpeoples, stop targeting those who don't agree with you' type posts...thanks
Probably have a good joke/gossip on Facebook too no doubt

 

[Pahari]

Makes sense. In general pathans don't speak Urdu/Hindi and to my knowledge don't have a decent recipe for daal. They have more affinity with Afghans.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

I dont see frontier region clamouring for greater Afghanistan let alone the settled areas of KP.... If the clear majority want to go, then by all means, they should be let go. Mqm and its supporters are probably praying for it to happen one day

But the reality is that the influencial pakistani pashtuns want or wanted greater pakistan to the west...

 

[RWAC]

Why Afghanistan Should Recognize the Durand Line?

If you and a few others represent what a Pashtun is, I would like to stamp this title with my foot. Make your country your identity, not your ethnicity.

Why does something imaginary, subject to lines drawn on whims of a few men, hold more importance than something that defines your personality and something that makes you who you are?

 

[akheR]

From a Pashtun point of view it's understandable that they want "unification", or at least a formal recognition of their national unity as the Durand line has never been accepted by them, and I think such "extreme" reactions from Pak Pakhtoons is a modern phenomenon, born out of the continuous contempt for their culture and the perennial "traitor" etiquette following them even when they were (legitimately) asking for their basic human rights.

The reactions on this very thread show it, some equate "patriotism" with stubbornness, and instead of engaging a constructive discussion in order to help the country in the longer run, they try to bury the debate with ad hominems.
I personally believe no one is born "nationalist", any individual has only few modest aims in life, namely roti, kapra and makan (quite cheesy, but anyway) ; I think that, if later they become Pashtun (or Baloch, Kashmiri, Kurd, Irish ...) "nationalists" it's because they're pushed to do it.

If we want to progress as a nation we must first opt for a a complete moral overhaul on an individual level and begin, for instance, by being tolerant enough to accept a different, if not opposite, point of view ; a good beginning will perhaps be to stop accusing Afghan "refugees" of all ills on earth.
Whether we like or not we'll have to live as neighbours, and I genuinely don't believe that international borders will change in the upcoming decades...




...will have to bear the daal-khors.

 

[RWAC]

Why Afghanistan Should Recognize the Durand Line?

Pakistan border will be extended to great measures. There will be time that not only that border extends to POSWAN, but also, Kashmir and Afghanistan might become part of Pakistan - new Pakistan as part of Khalifa - as it is waiting for ruler; Imam Mahdi (A.S).



If i were you, i would give up the ideas of Pukhtoonistan or whatever it is. The concept of Nationalism will fall, and that includes Pukhtoonistan.



Pakistan is a Muslim nation; a platform for everyone, Balochi, Sindhi, Punjabi, Pukhtoon, Hazara, Kashmiri and everyone in it including non-Muslim. The land that built on this purpose despite of facing crises, is going to last longer.

Great. I will be waiting here in Canada for the day the Pakistani border reaches here.

 

[akheR]

Why does something imaginary, subject to lines drawn on whims of a few men, hold more importance than something that defines your personality and something that makes you who you are?

I'm against the concept of nation (I think it's a 19th century European manufacture which can only be applied there, in the east there's too much of ethnic-religious heterogeneity), but, until the rise of the Khilafah, it's the most logical political proposition to protect a people's history, culture, language, ... the problem with Pakistan is that it isn't really the federation that it's supposed to be.
If it followed its own basic ideas all these nationalisms shouldn't even have been there (ironically, the main point differentiating MA Jinnah and Pandit Nehru was the federation-centralization debate, the former being for a federation, thus not only aware of the ethnic and regional identities, but logically recognizing them.)

 

[RWAC]

Why Afghanistan Should Recognize the Durand Line?

I'm against the concept of nation (I think it's a 19th century European manufacture which can only be applied there, in the east there's too much of ethnic-religious heterogeneity), but, until the rise of the Khilafah, it's the most logical political proposition to protect a people's history, culture, language, ... the problem with Pakistan is that it isn't really the federation that it's supposed to be.
If it followed its own basic ideas all these nationalisms shouldn't even have been there (ironically, the main point differentiating MA Jinnah and Pandit Nehru was the federation-centralization debate, the former being for a federation, thus not only aware of the ethnic and regional identities, but logically recognizing them.)

I'm fine with the concept of nation-states. But it does not define who I am to the extent my ethnicity (culture, language, customs) define me. I'm not in favor of every ethnicity trying to create their own country (just leads to more skirmishes in my opinion), but when it hits the fan, I know where my loyalties lie.

Today based on the 2 sets of imaginary lines I was born within, I'm an Indian. Tomorrow, based on the 2 sets of lines my kids are born within, they will be Indian/Canadian. What will not change is the Punjabi language we speak, the customs and culture which shape my daily life and my outlook on life. And that, I propose, is true for most people around the world living in ethnically-dense places.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

This whole concept of states 'recognising' something or the other is silly. As if by not recognising a border or a nation it will some how dissappear. If you do not 'recognise' something which is real and present then you are a blind fool.

 

[eradicator]

I'm fine with the concept of nation-states. But it does not define who I am to the extent my ethnicity (culture, language, customs) define me. I'm not in favor of every ethnicity trying to create their own country (just leads to more skirmishes in my opinion), but when it hits the fan, I know where my loyalties lie.

Today based on the 2 sets of imaginary lines I was born within, I'm an Indian. Tomorrow, based on the 2 sets of lines my kids are born within, they will be Indian/Canadian. What will not change is the Punjabi language we speak, the customs and culture which shape my daily life and my outlook on life. And that, I propose, is true for most people around the world living in ethnically-dense places.

Very well put Man. Sadly , India is also becoming a totalitarian society where one has to prove his loyalty as " Indian only and nothing else matters " as if the identity given 60 odd years ago is the only thing that defines an individual.

Nationalities can change anytime. Yesterday a few people were calling themselves Pakistanis , today they are calling themselves Bangladeshis but the only identity that lasts is that of ethnicity ( Bengali in this case ) , just goes to show how bogus the pride with Nationalism is and it can never swap the Linguistic , Cultural and to an extent Religious identity ( in my case they would be limited to celebrating festivals and rituals of birth/marriage etc )

 

[Badsha]

Mara, Pakhtoons have long noses rarely see a Pakhtoon with a small nose lol

I also suffer from this.

Culturally, genetically and linguistically, Peshawar has more in common with Kabul.

Pashtun and Tajik also are more closely related, (genetically) than Punjabi are to Pashtun

I agree. Linguistically and culturally we may have more in common with them but socially we are just way more different and this has been the case since the late British times. Socially we are much better with Punjab than Afghanistan. My mothers side came from south Afghanistan through south Waziristan about 100 years ago but still I don't consider having any ties with an Afghan except for both being of more or less the same race.

Will Afghanistan also take their refugee brothers living along the roads in Punjab?

This is one really bad aspect of Afghanis. Plenty of them are really good people but there are those living in Peshawer who have just caused problems for everyone. The worst part is they are the ones who criticize Pakistan the most and focus on "Pakhtunkhwa" despite leeching of the nation. Not all of them are like that but I've seen plenty and it really annoys me to see someone so ungrateful who has received help from a nation to complain about it and then on top of that focus on Pakhtunkhwa.

The idea of a "nation" of Pakhtunkhwa is also a silly idea in my opinion. Nationalistic identities are formed through unifying factors such as a united education, social culture, military ect. The time when "race" was considered a "nation/empires" Identity has probably passed two centuries ago.

But all is not well. Pashtun people still go through daily racism in Pakistan which weather you admit it or not is dominated by Punjab. One thing about Punjab is that they don't know how to govern/rule a nation (and it may be due to inexperience). They want everything for themselves and we're seeing the results.

That said the majority of Pashtun people (except maybe some in Peshawer and some singers who are drunk 90 percent of the time) don't have much affinity for afghanian or Pukhtunkhwa.

 

[Zu456]

This argument can easily be extended to Kashmir becoming it's own state in Central Asia. Also baloch want an independent Balochistan as it split between Iran and Pakistan. They want both provinces to unite. Seen as though many baloch have moved to Oman maybe Oman should become Balochistan too. Fact is Afghanistan like Pakistan is made up of many ethnicities. Tajiks, pushtun, Uzbek, hazara, gujjar, pamiri, qizilbash, nuristani etc. You don't see tajiks or Uzbeks wanting greater Tajikistan or greater Uzbekistan. I'm from the gujjar tribe and they are found in Indian Kashmir, Pakistani Punjaab and northern areas as well as Afghanistan. I can't call for these regions to unite to make gujjaristan.

 

[Badsha]

This argument can easily be extended to Kashmir becoming it's own state in Central Asia. Also baloch want an independent Balochistan as it split between Iran and Pakistan. They want both provinces to unite. Seen as though many baloch have moved to Oman maybe Oman should become Balochistan too. Fact is Afghanistan like Pakistan is made up of many ethnicities. Tajiks, pushtun, Uzbek, hazara, gujjar, pamiri, qizilbash, nuristani etc. You don't see tajiks or Uzbeks wanting greater Tajikistan or greater Uzbekistan. I'm from the gujjar tribe and they are found in Indian Kashmir, Pakistani Punjaab and northern areas as well as Afghanistan. I can't call for these regions to unite to make gujjaristan.

The name is classic though. Gujjaristan.

and yeah I agree. Like I said most Pakhtuns don't want anything like Pakhtunkhwa.

 

[Zu456]

They actually did genetic studies and found all Pakistani populations including Pathans, Sindhis, baloch, punjaabis, Kashmiris etc were closer to each other than other groups. The only exceptions were the hazara, makranis and Kalash. Also you can keep going further back in time. Let's take the Indus Valley civilisation it encompassed all of Afghanistan, Pakistan and North west India. I think we should all try and re establish the Indus Valley haha.

 

[amax]

They actually did genetic studies and found all Pakistani populations including Pathans, Sindhis, baloch, punjaabis, Kashmiris etc were closer to each other than other groups. The only exceptions were the hazara, makranis and Kalash. Also you can keep going further back in time. Let's take the Indus Valley civilisation it encompassed all of Afghanistan, Pakistan and North west India. I think we should all try and re establish the Indus Valley haha.

I also read one interesting article recently regarding roots of Pakistanis(dont know about authenticity), the author said that there are two extreme "ideological" opinions that got lot of visibility one is Muhammad bin Qasim 1st Pakistani theory from zahid Hamid/religious group and other is at extreme other end to counter it saying we are all "Indians"( a very recent terms). He stated that all Pakistani ethnicity have 4 strong common genetic components and difference is different proportions of them in different ethnicities and its Indus that has historically defined most of current Pak region and its about time we own to great ancient civilizations that it nourished instead of going foreign . btw from my travel in the country I have noticed that seraiki belt provide a "seamless" entry in every province,

 

[Saeed]

Considering it was him who signed that treaty

If you want to create a country of ethnic groups then it should be like this

or if you want to go back in history why stop at one particular period go further and make it like this

 

[Myrmidon]

From a Pashtun point of view it's understandable that they want "unification", or at least a formal recognition of their national unity as the Durand line has never been accepted by them, and I think such "extreme" reactions from Pak Pakhtoons is a modern phenomenon, born out of the continuous contempt for their culture and the perennial "traitor" etiquette following them even when they were (legitimately) asking for their basic human rights.

The reactions on this very thread show it, some equate "patriotism" with stubbornness, and instead of engaging a constructive discussion in order to help the country in the longer run, they try to bury the debate with ad hominems.
I personally believe no one is born "nationalist", any individual has only few modest aims in life, namely roti, kapra and makan (quite cheesy, but anyway) ; I think that, if later they become Pashtun (or Baloch, Kashmiri, Kurd, Irish ...) "nationalists" it's because they're pushed to do it.

If we want to progress as a nation we must first opt for a a complete moral overhaul on an individual level and begin, for instance, by being tolerant enough to accept a different, if not opposite, point of view ; a good beginning will perhaps be to stop accusing Afghan "refugees" of all ills on earth.
Whether we like or not we'll have to live as neighbours, and I genuinely don't believe that international borders will change in the upcoming decades...




...will have to bear the daal-khors.

Other than the daal-khor bit that is one of the best posts I have read in a while. Pushed to nationalism, only half the story

 

[Myrmidon]

OK



Yeah your friend kinda ruined that with his random comments (it seems he can even bring up random points about my facial features without even having seen or met me).



Yes my comment is based on one certain comment he made in one certain thread. Not like I've eversaid it in other threads and you've quoted those...and who's bashing afghans? When did/have I based afghans?
Its nice how you pick and choose posts...someone can say random rubbish and you'll quote it making a joke with him and others you quote with thesame 'yeah you hate certainpeoples, stop targeting those who don't agree with you' type posts...thanks
Probably have a good joke/gossip on Facebook too no doubt

Only those who have very little dignity or honour gossip Mohsin, also I am merely doing what you normally do, pick and choose on here.

 

[Myrmidon]

If you want to create a country of ethnic groups then it should be like this

or if you want to go back in history why stop at one particular period go further and make it like this

Peshawar might have benefited by being in Punjab, maybe our cities would be well developed too then

 

[Myrmidon]

Pakistan border will be extended to great measures. There will be time that not only that border extends to POSWAN, but also, Kashmir and Afghanistan might become part of Pakistan - new Pakistan as part of Khalifa - as it is waiting for ruler; Imam Mahdi (A.S).

If i were you, i would give up the ideas of Pukhtoonistan or whatever it is. The concept of Nationalism will fall, and that includes Pukhtoonistan.

Pakistan is a Muslim nation; a platform for everyone, Balochi, Sindhi, Punjabi, Pukhtoon, Hazara, Kashmiri and everyone in it including non-Muslim. The land that built on this purpose despite of facing crises, is going to last longer.

Umm, what is the difference between Pakhtoon nationalism and Pakistani nationalism? are you not being a hypocrite? Pakistan is a muslim nation fine, are Pakhtoons not muslim? Am I the only one that sees hypocrisy in this? or am I way too naive. Not saying I want Pukhtoonistan, and I have no clue where I made a desire of it

You say concept of nationalism will fall but you said the border of Pakistan will extend to great measures. Spare me the lectures, you guys have ruined the nation with your absolute hypocrisy. I saw some mullahs talk about how it is only okay to walk in front of somebody praying if they do it in a specific manner. If some normal person had done it they would be cutting corn in a jail cell somewhere awaiting the death sentence. Makes me laugh

 

[Myrmidon]

They actually did genetic studies and found all Pakistani populations including Pathans, Sindhis, baloch, punjaabis, Kashmiris etc were closer to each other than other groups. The only exceptions were the hazara, makranis and Kalash. Also you can keep going further back in time. Let's take the Indus Valley civilisation it encompassed all of Afghanistan, Pakistan and North west India. I think we should all try and re establish the Indus Valley haha.

Well why don't you read up on the genetic studies which claimed Pashtuns were much closer related to macedons than Kalash? Pashtuns do not claim Greek ancestry but the Kalash do.

 

[Zu456]

Well why don't you read up on the genetic studies which claimed Pashtuns were much closer related to macedons than Kalash? Pashtuns do not claim Greek ancestry but the Kalash do.

Neither are related to the Macedonians. The Kalash have been found to have the most unique genetics known and are indigenous to pk. There are so many theories out there for every tribe. My tribe for instance has about 10 origins - Turkey, Georgia etc. Fact is these groups are the majority in pk now and over years have homogenised to a large degree. There is a lot of diversity within the groups even. I've read vastly into these things and you will be amazed at the evidence linking a tribe to so many origins. Fact is Afghanistan, Pakistan and NW India are very diverse regions with many invasions through times. The combining factor is the Indus Valley civilisation and later the persian empire followed by the Arab and Turk conquests.

 

[Zu456]

Apart from Makranis which are Negroid and Hazara who are mongoloid anthropologically the rest of pakistanis are caucoscoid falling under the irano-Indic race which is a sub type of Mediterranean race.

 

[Fallen King]

Umm, what is the difference between Pakhtoon nationalism and Pakistani nationalism? are you not being a hypocrite? Pakistan is a muslim nation fine, are Pakhtoons not muslim? Am I the only one that sees hypocrisy in this? or am I way too naive. Not saying I want Pukhtoonistan, and I have no clue where I made a desire of it

You say concept of nationalism will fall but you said the border of Pakistan will extend to great measures. Spare me the lectures, you guys have ruined the nation with your absolute hypocrisy. I saw some mullahs talk about how it is only okay to walk in front of somebody praying if they do it in a specific manner. If some normal person had done it they would be cutting corn in a jail cell somewhere awaiting the death sentence. Makes me laugh

Pakistan means everyone, Pakhtoonistan means Pakhtoon only. What about Hazara, Punjabi, Sindhi, Urdu, Balochi and many others? Who is being more hypocrite, biased, racist? It is bad that Afghanistan is already Pakhtoonistan dominated, now you want to Pakistan away from Balochi, Sindhi, Urdu, Punjabi, Hazara and many more in Pakistan? Where will they go?

If Pakhtoon is not happy, they can leave Pakistan to stay in Afghanistan. But Pakistan is not, and never will be Pakhtoonistan because Allah created Pakistan for Muslim regardless of their backgrounds, and that shows despite of existence of Afghanistan, Allah still created Pakistan for sub-continent, Kashmiri, and everyone in Pakistan including Orthodox, liberal, conservative and you name it.

Pakistan is a nation, but nation for everyone, unlike Pakhtoonistan - that is only for Pakhtoon. I think the world is better off without Pakhtoonistan if it has no place for non-Pakhtoon people.

 

[Zu456]

This illustrates my point well

 

[Zu456]

Different colours represent the different haplogroups of the different races and the admixture between races. It is clear that the Pakistani groups are quite similar whilst being different to the Indian groups.

 

[Mohsin]

Only those who have very little dignity or honour gossip Mohsin, also I am merely doing what you normally do, pick and choose on here.

yeah man I normally pick and choose so much that it results in me being accused of being a wannabe 'fake Pathan'

 

[Myrmidon]

Different colours represent the different haplogroups of the different races and the admixture between races. It is clear that the Pakistani groups are quite similar whilst being different to the Indian groups.

Was this test done on Pakhtoons living in Pakista?, in major cities? they have mixed with a wide range of ethnicities. Better data would be gotten from the tribal areas or Afghanistan to show the differences. As far as I know Pashtuns are closest to Baloch and Sindhi, but that could also be because of the Baloch gene being quite strong in most Sindhis.

This shows a difference but Pashtun from Pakistan and Afghanistan are virtually identical 1&14

 

[carbon11]

This illustrates my point well

oh plan "ya" mankareen waliya (our local pashto meaning one with wide nostrils)

everyone in pakistan knows there is difference between physical shakal , behaviour , attitude between a pathan or punjabi.

i have a brother in law who is afghan pashtun in uk.

all i know durrand line was never accepted by pakhtuns proper i.e those from fata and malakand that is why so many insurrections broke out straight afterwards that the british had to put them down. one of the future british mp's known as winston churchill was there at seige of malakand. the lewanai mullah leading the insurrection there imo is no different to mullah fazlullah of today.

even today u will see in pashtuns in form of taliban taking on the state in fata and malakand divison , fata is basically stolen afghan territory that just seperates tribes and one region by an imaginary border that has never been pacified or policed.
and swat malakand were independent states. these 2 areas imo the pashtuns from these areas have more affinity towards afghanistan than pakistan.

other areas like bannu, gandapur, bannuchis, khattak tribe, people in peshawar, attock, etc marwat tribe etc niazis , tribes in hazara division etc are more closer to pakistan and have adopted more non pakhtun cultural practices.

i can say this because my brother in law is afghan but born in mardan and his family been settled there for many generations they are originally from kunar.
and i also have friend of family who are from dir, and both these guys don't like being called pakistani and reluctanct to refer themselves as pakistani.

 

[carbon11]

I apologize if you got offended and I don't hate my culture at all. Its just that I completely despise the notion that KPK belongs to Afghanistan and Pashtuns are Afghanis. No I don't agree with it at all and if such a dreaded day comes where KPK is merged with Afghanistan, that'd be the last day I step foot in this region.

I don't want to be a person who puts his ethnicity over his country. I don't have a problem with Afghanis desiring to have KPK but when Pakistanis make such comments, it really disappoints me and I am not talking about any individual here. Just generally and such people can actually make you despise the culture and Pakhtun wali itself.

Khapa nashay, pregda bas. Let's leave it here.

wali pregdu va ?

khabre makhta leghu

parshan yay , hits zuroorat ne lare

 

[khanz141]

I think some people are just delusional who still believe in this concept. We all need to rather learn to live in peace with everyone instead, whether its Punjabi, Tajik, Hazara, Farsi, Balochi, Sindhi. In Afghanistan itself, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazara, Dari speakers, Farsi speakers don't get along with each other.

Today it's one sect and ethnicity, tomorrow there will be another set of sects with in the current ethnicity. So then what? everyone divides all over again into some more nations.

I am a Pukhtoon and i do love Lar ao Bar Pukhtoons from Peshawar to Kabul but i wouldn't give away Pakistan for anything.