Why are British Indians more successful than British Pakistanis?

[mani1]

Absence of an overwhelming Mirpuri population in the US and Canada is the reason why the North American Pakistanis are doing much better than the Brit Paks. Not that there is any problem with being from Mirpur, however the migrants from Mirpur to the UK in the 60s were mostly illiterates and conservative in their attitudes , which resulted in self segregation and them becoming stubborn to change with modern times.

So why are Punjabi's making the underclass in London and Scotland where they are the majority.

Most of the recent Punjabis make the underclass of the UK as they are mainly Asylum seekers living on £5 a day and in the City of Sanctuary the knock on Mirpuri's and others doors and beg for money Chanda de lol.

Then again they do that back home in Mirpur too travel 100s if not 1000s of miles and beg.

As for Canadian Pakistanis lol they make the underclasd there figures have been posted by me.

The US ones are doing better as they have to work as no disability benefits or housing.

They are still way way behind Indians.

Also why is the USA richer than the UK per capita despite having a much larger population.

Are the White Brits illiterate in ENGLISH?
Are they more conservative in nature then those from the USA lol.

 

[Wave your flag]

It's the norm for British Pakistani men to marry English women, it's very frequent as they are very fond of them! There are also quiet a few who marry British Indian women as well, does that count? and in not so frequent cases but a growing number marry Jamaican women; my friend [MENTION=136193]Adil_94[/MENTION] is married to a super fine Caribbean young lady as well! and my mom and dad were an example as well but back then it was extremely rare for such a relation to form. It's actually not extraordinary to find Brits off different backgrounds marry one another now which is why our society is the most enriched in the Universe! well you don't count, you're a Traitor; we will never forgive you for settling in Enemy territory

And where does that leave Brit Pakistani females? Oh yeah marry their cousin from abroad.

Very rare is it the other way round.

 

[Mamoon]

I have some highly successful British Pakistanis in my family and none of them married their cousins and neither were they born to cousin marriages,, so perhaps OP has a point. Also, integration is a sensitive topic, but it is never a pleasant sight to see men and women walking around in in their Mirpuri village attire, straight from Afzalpur etc.

The young men often break the shackles and have developed their own British Mirpuri stereotype: short hair (shaved from the sides) with too much gel, black v-neck tees, fancy beard styles, dog tags, and a severe obsession with bodybuilding, which often serves as a compensation for their short heights (Napoleon complex). One can spot them from the moon, and I wonder who, when and why inspired this tradition.

 

[mani1]

I have some highly successful British Pakistanis in my family and none of them married their cousins and neither were they born to cousin marriages,, so perhaps OP has a point. Also, integration is a sensitive topic, but it is never a pleasant sight to see men and women walking around in in their Mirpuri village attire, straight from Afzalpur etc.

The young men often break the shackles and have developed their own British Mirpuri stereotype: short hair (shaved from the sides) with too much gel, black v-neck tees, fancy beard styles, dog tags, and a severe obsession with bodybuilding, which often serves as a compensation for their short heights (Napoleon complex). One can spot them from the moon, and I wonder who, when and why inspired this tradition.

Oh lol you ever though about getting in to comedy?

Is the Attock or Peshawar or Kandahar taliban village burkha attire any different? I mean Burkha upon Burkha.

For those whom happen to live in an area with loads of Pukhtuns and Chaachis you would hardly ever see any women with out a burka. Talk about self segregating.

As for the second part lol. Never seen this my self and I live in an area "Full of Mirpuri's" thankfully I dont live in the areas of Bradford full of Pukhtuns as they are the most deprived and crime ridden in the City BD3 especially around Attock Park and BD5.
There is a stereo type there that their cars are worth more then there houses lol
The only integration there is with Irish Gypsies.

As for the second part never seen this my self, though I am assuming you are talking about London.

There the stereo types regarding London blokes is and has been said by London girls of various different South Asian ethnicitys that the fellas there spend more time on there looks then women.
Must be ine of the reasons why the "Urban" Pakistani females love there non Muslim black guys.

Infact "Imam" Kirmani wrote an article in the Guardian talking about non Mirpuri females and there Oral skills lol
I guess them said skills are now being used to "Integrate"

 

[shaz619]

Oh lol you ever though about getting in to comedy?

Is the Attock or Peshawar or Kandahar taliban village burkha attire any different? I mean Burkha upon Burkha.

For those whom happen to live in an area with loads of Pukhtuns and Chaachis you would hardly ever see any women with out a burka. Talk about self segregating.

As for the second part lol. Never seen this my self and I live in an area "Full of Mirpuri's" thankfully I dont live in the areas of Bradford full of Pukhtuns as they are the most deprived and crime ridden in the City BD3 especially around Attock Park and BD5.
There is a stereo type there that their cars are worth more then there houses lol
The only integration there is with Irish Gypsies.

As for the second part never seen this my self, though I am assuming you are talking about London.

There the stereo types regarding London blokes is and has been said by London girls of various different South Asian ethnicitys that the fellas there spend more time on there looks then women.
Must be ine of the reasons why the "Urban" Pakistani females love there non Muslim black guys.

Infact "Imam" Kirmani wrote an article in the Guardian talking about non Mirpuri females and there Oral skills lol
I guess them said skills are now being used to "Integrate"

Lol that Imam sounds a bit dodgy, like them peer who say I will fix your life for x,y,z don't think those Urban women have such interests more common amongst other ethnicities

 

[mani1]

Lol that Imam sounds a bit dodgy, like them peer who say I will fix your life for x,y,z don't think those Urban women have such interests more common amongst other ethnicities

Have you ever been to a house party with Afro Caribbean's in London or Manchester or clubbing?

 

[shaz619]

And where does that leave Brit Pakistani females? Oh yeah marry their cousin from abroad.

Very rare is it the other way round.

Personally me mom married a black dude and a cousin of mine she married outside her ethnicity, in both instances there was a conversion to Islam which was the only condition by sceptical family members. A growing number of British females who prefer to marry non-pakistani's are increasingly able to fulfil their wish under that conversion condition, however majortiy marry British Pakistani's at present and prefer them for obvious reasons but marriages to cousin Iqbal in Pakistan are not preffered and are very rare. I know that you may feel different due to a potential personal situation but I do hope you get to be with whom you desire!

 

[shaz619]

Have you ever been to a house party with Afro Caribbean's in London or Manchester or clubbing?

Alright there are quiet a few thinking about it a bit more but they stick to apneh mostly even then but I say that from my own experiences and nothing more

 

[90MPH]

And where does that leave Brit Pakistani females? Oh yeah marry their cousin from abroad.

Very rare is it the other way round.

Actually I personally know so many Pakistani women who marry outside their family. If they are well educated they want to marry someone similar, not some villager from some country who can't even speak English.

Smell the coffee and get out more.

 

[Yossarian]

Just under 60 per cent of British Pakistanis are living in relative poverty, while for Indians the figure is closer to 25 per cent. Indians are better represented in the top jobs than even the White British, while Pakistanis are significantly underrepresented. 12 per cent of doctors are Indian, while many Pakistanis are clustered in low-skilled professions; indeed, one study found as many as one quarter of Pakistani men drove taxis.

IMO it's because Indians are more integrated socially. I honestly believe cousin marriages has regressed the Pakistani community. Because it leads to no progress. It's the same cycle over and over again. Note most cousin marriages include getting a Partner from abroad from some village in Pakistan. Therefore, the British born child will always have at least one parent with a mindset and mentality , also limited education, from a conservative Pakistani village that will greatly influence the children.

Indians are very successful because they don't marry their cousins from back home.

Very true, Pakistanis in the US are quite successful because they are not the defenders of Islam like in the UK. I visited Birmingham UK once and the amount of beehive beards and religious backwards ppl I saw there made it feel like a 3rd world country...

The same old theme repeated umpteen times in thread after thread containing the same old ignorance based posts without an inkling of the background of how we are where we are.

If posters visited some of the earlier threads on the same/similar topics, perhaps they'd understand the background and learn something instead of posting the same old rubbish.

Hear, read these, you might learn something.

British Pakistanis, less successful compared to North American Pakistanis ?

There has been a lot of rubbish posted in this thread vis-a-vis the above question. One must understand the major historical differences between the Pakistani diaspora in the UK versus the USA in order to comprehend why these economic differences exist.

To summarise:

The early Pakistani's who arrived in Britain in the late 50's early 60's came to work primarily as manual labourers in the major industrial towns and cities due to a manpower shortage as Britain tried to rebuild after the war. Most of them were from rural backgrounds, with many either completely uneducated (ie not even able to read or write) or just having basic education. The intention was to stay for a few years, save and send money back to support their extended families, and perhaps buy a plot of land for when they went back. Due to the low wages, cost of flights, and other hardships, it was the 'norm' to not go back and see their parents, wives, children for upwards of five years or more.

Over time they brought their wives and children over to the UK, but still kept sending money back (out of their already low wages) to support elderly parents and/or still strive to buy that plot of land or two. This however meant that there was even less to spend on the familes in the UK => poor housing, deprived run down areas, poor schooling, working long hours and thus less time to spend on the kiids .......all of which had a detrimental effect of the children's education.

This was further exacerbated in the mid-70's onwards when the cotton mills of the North started to close (due to the likes of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh setting up their own cotton mills instead of sending the cotton to the UK for it to be processed, made into cloth and then re-exported back). Other labour intensive industries such as steel mills, car plants, and other manufacturing industries in the Midlands also went down, the net result of which was that the first to be laid off work were the low paid manual workers. The knock on affect of all this is a major cause of the economic (and educational, social) situation of the majority of todays Pakistani's in the UK.


In contrast, those Pakistani's who went to the USA initially were either professionals (doctors, engineers ..) or students ... ie from the educated urban middle classes of Pakistan. Thus they, and their children, already had a head start over their UK counterparts, and hence the differences in their relative economic prosperity today.

OK, let me try and explain.

As mentioned previously, the Pakistanis came to work as manual labourers in the cotton & woollen mills of the North and the heavy industries of the Midlands. So just like most newly arrived, uneducated immigrants, they performed the worst and lowest paid jobs. To make matters worse, apart from feeding and looking after themselves, they also needed to send the little money they had back to support their families back home.

Result? They congregated together, living in the cheapest and most deprived parts of the twon and cities. As newcomers came, they too gravitated towards the same areas. Then they brought their families to live with them - again in the same areas. They formed ghettos.

When the factories closed en mass and caused massive unemployment, those living in these ghettos were the worst off - for all the reasons explained earlier.

But, those that did manage to improve their lot, acquire decent education / good jobs / acquire a little bit of wealth, they started to move out and disperse into the more upmarket suburbs, with better schooling, better facilities, lower unemployment etc. You will find that these British Pakistanis, by and large, are just as integrated as their American counterparts (- having lived/worked in the States for a few years, and now living in one such area, I can verify this personally).

As for the American Pakistanis, coming from middle class/ wealthier / educated backgrounds (as students, doctors, engineers etc), their starting point in the States was very similar to those British Pakistanis who had managed to move out of the deprived inner city areas. Not only that, but they had no need to send money back to support their wealthy middle class families back home. meaning that they could afford better housing, live in better areas with better schooling etc. You get the picture.

It's not easy as you may think. Living in a deprived area means worst schools, fewer jobs, higher crime rates - and even organisations like Banks and Insurance companies (say for insuring your car - which is compulsory in the UK otherwise you can't drive the car on a public road) work against you by increasing their rates and/or denying you loans and refusing to insure you.

Let me give you an example of a current situation which does not even involve someone living in a deprived area.

Because of the large discrepency of house prices in the UK between London & the South east versus the North, if a family man living in the North, with a good job and a decent house in a good neighbourhood, is made redundant but is offered a new job in London / the South-East (even with a larger salary), he will most likely turn it down.

Why? You may ask.

The reason being that the price he will obtain for selling his big family house in the North, will unlikely be enough for a flat/house half the size in a deprived area of London ie Not large enough for him and his family to live in. Thus he's stuck in the North unless he can get a mega increase in his salary for relocating which will enable him to take on a much larger mortgage for a larger house in a decent area of London.

Now translate that to someone low paid or unemployed living in a deprived inner city area of a Northern town trying to move to the suburbs with better housing, better facilities, better schools, better prospects for employment. Basically, he's stuck in his ghetto, that of the British Pakistani community containing none other than British Pakistanis, with all the aforementioned probems. And so the circle continues for his children. (That's not to say that every now and then some, like my parents, manage to break out of that circle and move to better areas where 'they can integrate')

 

[Chrish]

Drastic difference between the median incomes.. Seriously is this data real or made up?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Pakistanis#Economic_status

 

[QuickCrick]

Drastic difference between the median incomes.. Seriously is this data real or made up?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Pakistanis#Economic_status

Pakistanis are blessed with entrepreneurial skills and are self employed how much they earn and how much they show they earn are two seperate things - I don’t the difference is as big...

Indians can’t hide their money as they prefer working for someone and have to declare all they earn.

 

[mustang]

Pakistanis are blessed with entrepreneurial skills and are self employed how much they earn and how much they show they earn are two seperate things - I don’t the difference is as big...

Indians can’t hide their money as they prefer working for someone and have to declare all they earn.

Is this really an accurate perception of Indians in the UK or is it an argumentative stance to defend a data point against your community?

In the US, Indian Americans are well known as successful entrepreneurs be it new age tech startups or older school small businesses (think gas stations or motels or convenience stores or franchise businesses). I'm guessing perhaps Indians in the UK have higher percentage of employees than entrepreneurs relative to Indians in the US?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Is this really an accurate perception of Indians in the UK or is it an argumentative stance to defend a data point against your community?

In the US, Indian Americans are well known as successful entrepreneurs be it new age tech startups or older school small businesses (think gas stations or motels or convenience stores or franchise businesses). I'm guessing perhaps Indians in the UK have higher percentage of employees than entrepreneurs relative to Indians in the US?

Indians are also fairly entrepreneurial in the UK, but he does make a valid point about Pakistanis, they don't tend to show their real earnings like a lot of small businesses. Pakistanis in the UK are generally cash rich, the data isn't going to reflect that.

 

[mustang]

Indians are also fairly entrepreneurial in the UK, but he does make a valid point about Pakistanis, they don't tend to show their real earnings like a lot of small businesses. Pakistanis in the UK are generally cash rich, the data isn't going to reflect that.

Nice to see the street smartness of the community there. The successful cash rich British Pakistani entrepreneurs - do they place emphasis on education and a white collar career path (which people usually prefer more for right or wrong) or do they place more emphasis on motivating their kids to also be cash rich entrepreneurs like themselves?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Nice to see the street smartness of the community there. The successful cash rich British Pakistani entrepreneurs - do they place emphasis on education and a white collar career path (which people usually prefer more for right or wrong) or do they place more emphasis on motivating their kids to also be cash rich entrepreneurs like themselves?

In my family education and white collar career path has always been important, pretty much extends to the Pakistani community we mix in as well. That said, I don't claim to speak for British Pakistanis in general, the wikipedia link which your compatriot bumped is quite derogatory of the Mirpuri community. Not sure if that is a serious study or been doctored to take a dig at them.

 

[QuickCrick]

Is this really an accurate perception of Indians in the UK or is it an argumentative stance to defend a data point against your community?

In the US, Indian Americans are well known as successful entrepreneurs be it new age tech startups or older school small businesses (think gas stations or motels or convenience stores or franchise businesses). I'm guessing perhaps Indians in the UK have higher percentage of employees than entrepreneurs relative to Indians in the US?

My opinion is based on experiences gained living in different areas of the UK and having both Indian and Pakistani friends.

It is easier to gather accurate stats on someone employed, when you are self employed you can manipulate how much you earn to avoid tax but NET someone running a small business would earn more than a doctor as long as they have a semi decent accountant.

 

[mustang]

My opinion is based on experiences gained living in different areas of the UK and having both Indian and Pakistani friends.

It is easier to gather accurate stats on someone employed, when you are self employed you can manipulate how much you earn to avoid tax but NET someone running a small business would earn more than a doctor as long as they have a semi decent accountant.

This is true (and I have observed this among cash heavy businesses as well) but it is the case for businesses that are doing good which is a percentage of sum total of businesses owned by the community, right?

 

[ElRaja]

Drastic difference between the median incomes.. Seriously is this data real or made up?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Pakistanis#Economic_status

the data is 11 to 13 years old, additionally from the report,

The numbers in the sample are not large enough to give a very detailed breakdown of wealth
by ethnicity (of the household reference person) or of the spread within each ethnic group.

and it is a measure of wealth not income, i.e. the stock of family assets, as opposed to income levels, which shows a greater inequality due to cumulative effects.

imo there are two issues affecting the figures for brit pakistanis,

1. primary source of wealth is property, hence brit paks do much better than bengalis, because back then bengladeshis had a much high proportion of council house dwellers, but much worse than indians as a lot of the home ownership for brit paks was in northern england, which has lower property values.

even today london pakistanis have a higher proportion of recent migrants than london indians, some of whom, especially the sikhs have done very well in terms of consolidating generational wealth.

2. the data is from the period of imo the greatest disaffection amongst the younger pakistani generations, with significant numbers being drawn towards extremism, and feeling generally alienated from british society.

3. brit paks do operate it in the cash economy, and regularly under state incomes, however the data does not look at incomes, so i think might is arguably a moot point.

4. this biggest hindrance imo is brit paks hate giving their kids and independence, jobs at a young age are usually frowned upon as money means more independence, at least they were when i was a teen, non of my britpak mates had jobs in college, but most of my non britpak mates did.

additionally this leaves britpaks less money savvy than other groups imo, so you will find a lot who waste money on consumables, luxuries, and flight of fancy business ideas, rather than saving, investing and buying homes and building asset bases. and the parents are happy because the "kids" dont leave the home. this has been the trend for all my britpak mates.

if figures for this were available today i have no doubt bengalis and pakistanis would pbly be on a similar level, with both much closer to indians.

but indians are money savvy, and educated, so it is expected.

 

[QuickCrick]

Nice to see the street smartness of the community there. The successful cash rich British Pakistani entrepreneurs - do they place emphasis on education and a white collar career path (which people usually prefer more for right or wrong) or do they place more emphasis on motivating their kids to also be cash rich entrepreneurs like themselves?

It’s hard to generalise as it’s different in every case and you have to look at what gen they are. I’m 3rd gen and in my family my older brother has taken over my dads business, I have a start up, my sisters a teacher and my little brother is doing a risky degree. We’ve been supported in whatever we’ve decide to do but its probably different for 1st/2nd gen (Mirpuri’s) ..

 

[mustang]

In my family education and white collar career path has always been important, pretty much extends to the Pakistani community we mix in as well. That said, I don't claim to speak for British Pakistanis in general, the wikipedia link which your compatriot bumped is quite derogatory of the Mirpuri community. Not sure if that is a serious study or been doctored to take a dig at them.

Well I'm my own compatriot and none else's but enough about that.

"The Mirpuri community has made significant economic progress over the years. In almost all the major UK cities there is a sizeable Mirpuri business community which owns take aways, restaurants, shops and taxi bases to small and medium-sized manufacturing units, legal and financial firms. On the other hand, after the economic hardships faced by the first generation Mirpuri immigrants, their third and fourth generations are moving fast in the new fields of science, technology, arts and social sciences with higher number of youth taking admissions in different universities. The Mirpuri expatriate community has made notable progress in UK politics and a sizeable number of MPs, councillors, lord mayors and deputy mayors are representing the community in different constituencies.[130] The 2005 Kashmir earthquake caused widespread losses in Azad Kashmir, affecting many British Pakistanis.[23]"

This is from that Wikipedia link. Why should you consider the entire link derogatory? Yeah there may be some mentions under not so positive light (I did not read the entire article) but you can just see it as a holistic picture showing both positive and negative. Perhaps also understand what causes those not so stellar data points instead of expressing anguish over the presentation of those data points?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Well I'm my own compatriot and none else's but enough about that.

"The Mirpuri community has made significant economic progress over the years. In almost all the major UK cities there is a sizeable Mirpuri business community which owns take aways, restaurants, shops and taxi bases to small and medium-sized manufacturing units, legal and financial firms. On the other hand, after the economic hardships faced by the first generation Mirpuri immigrants, their third and fourth generations are moving fast in the new fields of science, technology, arts and social sciences with higher number of youth taking admissions in different universities. The Mirpuri expatriate community has made notable progress in UK politics and a sizeable number of MPs, councillors, lord mayors and deputy mayors are representing the community in different constituencies.[130] The 2005 Kashmir earthquake caused widespread losses in Azad Kashmir, affecting many British Pakistanis.[23]"

This is from that Wikipedia link. Why should you consider the entire link derogatory? Yeah there may be some mentions under not so positive light (I did not read the entire article) but you can just see it as a holistic picture showing both positive and negative. Perhaps also understand what causes those not so stellar data points instead of expressing anguish over the presentation of those data points?

I didn't read it all, just glanced at it so might have got a wrong impression from reading just the first few lines. I have no reason to feel anguish in any case, I am not from the Mirpuri community.