Why are British Indians more successful than British Pakistanis?

[Wave your flag]

Just under 60 per cent of British Pakistanis are living in relative poverty, while for Indians the figure is closer to 25 per cent. Indians are better represented in the top jobs than even the White British, while Pakistanis are significantly underrepresented. 12 per cent of doctors are Indian, while many Pakistanis are clustered in low-skilled professions; indeed, one study found as many as one quarter of Pakistani men drove taxis.

IMO it's because Indians are more integrated socially. I honestly believe cousin marriages has regressed the Pakistani community. Because it leads to no progress. It's the same cycle over and over again. Note most cousin marriages include getting a Partner from abroad from some village in Pakistan. Therefore, the British born child will always have at least one parent with a mindset and mentality , also limited education, from a conservative Pakistani village that will greatly influence the children.

Indians are very successful because they don't marry their cousins from back home.

 

[Pakpak]

90% of Pakistanis in UK came to the UK in the 1960s from Azad Kashmir to fill in the factory towns in the North West and North East. Hence had no real education, and this trend has been carried down to their generations after that. Which is why most of them still work in takeways, cabs, cash and carrys etc after the mills died in mill towns.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Success can be viewed in many ways. Certainly profession and money is one measure, but if you live in Britain (and I daresay most other developed nations) you would notice that many British Indian girls prefer to marry out. That would suggest that they are looking for a different type of success in their preference for a partner.

 

[troodon]

I read a similar thread a few months ago regarding US Indians vs Pakistanis.

Household income matters a lot in terms of financial success. These days both Husband and Wife have to work if you want to move up the ladder fast. I think Pak women do not work. I have not seen even 1 Pakistani women till now at work place and I worked in many cities. Saw Srilankan women and even Nepali ones. But not a single Pak woman.

There was one woman I met in Miami whose ancestors were from South India. They moved to US back in 1940's. Their family moved to Pak after Partition. Technically she is South Indian, but she considers herself as Pakistani heritage.

 

[Syed1]

I don't know about poverty and relative incomes but when I visited UK a few years back, it seems that the UK Pakistanis were still stuck in the Pakistan mode of 1970s-80s. When they donned desi clothing they were wearing styles that have long been out of fashion in Pakistan. The desis also seemed less integrated with the overall population and tended to cluster in parts of the city which were desi only. It also seemed to me that UK desis were more religiously inclined than North American desis.

 

[Indiafan]

Success can be viewed in many ways. Certainly profession and money is one measure, but if you live in Britain (and I daresay most other developed nations) you would notice that many British Indian girls prefer to marry out. That would suggest that they are looking for a different type of success in their preference for a partner.

That is some amazing logic. But I think Indian culture allows these kind of marrying out more than Pakistani culture, at a guess. Whether its marrying into a different religion, community. Education and wealth has a direct co-relation on women being more independent and allowed to take their own decisions. Back home we see this differentiation between educated well to do women vs those who are from poor, uneducated background

 

[Buffet]

What are education levels of both groups?

What % of women work in workforce from both groups?

Birth rates in both groups?

---------

These three things itself will make huge difference. I am very sure that portion of British Pakistanis having similar characteristics will have similar success.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Pakistani's are far ahead in terms or sports, politics, entertainment and business. Indians are generally educated more but are geeky in nature so it's not surprise they will have more wealth in terms of percentage but that's about it.

 

[TSA321]

Pakistani's are far ahead in terms or sports, politics, entertainment and business. Indians are generally educated more but are geeky in nature so it's not surprise they will have more wealth in terms of percentage but that's about it.

The only one 'far ahead' would be sports.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The only one 'far ahead' would be sports.

I haven't checked the numbers but im pretty sure there have been more Brit Pak Councillors and MPs too. Recently I think there are more actors, comedians and singers. Fair enough Zayn Malik is mixed race but there is no Indian singer anywhere near his level and then there is the likes of Riz Khan who is big in Hollywood now. Indians are good at business but in terms of sheer numbers Brit Paks own more businesses.

 

[TSA321]

I haven't checked the numbers but im pretty sure there have been more Brit Pak Councillors and MPs too. Recently I think there are more actors, comedians and singers. Fair enough Zayn Malik is mixed race but there is no Indian singer anywhere near his level and then there is the likes of Riz Khan who is big in Hollywood now. Indians are good at business but in terms of sheer numbers Brit Paks own more businesses.

There are more Pak councillors and we have the same No. of MPs and also MEPs, but they have quite a few more in the House of Lords.
I agree in terms of entertainment we've seen quite a few upcoming in the last few years particularly but still labelling it as 'far ahead' wouldn't be accurate. E.g. while we have Riz Ahmed, they have Dev Patel

There probably are more businesses owned by Pakistanis but the biggest Asian owned ones are mostly run by Indians.

 

[TM Riddle]

Zayn Malik..Seriously??

 

[Zak_Fan]

Zayn Malik..Seriously??

Lol.. and another example he gives is Riz Khan who apparently is big in Hollywood, but Dev Patel gets no mention.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Zayn Malik..Seriously??

Must be to do with his looks more than his singing ability ,wonder where his genes comes from.

 

[TM Riddle]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] how convenient that you forgot to mention Ben Kingsley and Freddie Mercury , the two absolute legends of their fields.
Oh and since we are talking of nobodies like Riz then we have Kunal Nayyer and Naveen Andrews.Dev Patel is of course a bigger star now a days.

 

[TM Riddle]

And btw isn't Bilal Saeed the Punjabi singer a pak brit?Or am I confusing him with someone else?

 

[mani1]

90% of Pakistanis in UK came to the UK in the 1960s from Azad Kashmir to fill in the factory towns in the North West and North East. Hence had no real education, and this trend has been carried down to their generations after that. Which is why most of them still work in takeways, cabs, cash and carrys etc after the mills died in mill towns.

So why are Pakistanis from "Urban" areas in London and Scotland scraping the bottom of the barrel along with Bengali's?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Never respected singers and actors. In earlier times these were the lowly profession, and only now due to rise of immorality have they become popular. Anyway, those who are not good at studies have no option but to try their hand at singing acting and other clown related fields.

 

[mani1]

As the OP 70% of Pakistani women don't work.

The older gen also tend to be more injury prone too.

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] how convenient that you forgot to mention Ben Kingsley and Freddie Mercury , the two absolute legends of their fields.
Oh and since we are talking of nobodies like Riz then we have Kunal Nayyer and Naveen Andrews.Dev Patel is of course a bigger star now a days.

Riz is big in the UK now. Ben Kingsley is a legend and didnt' know Mercury was of Indian heritage. Why don't they have desi names though? Not heard of the others tbh.

I dont think Bilal Saeed is British but i could be wrong. There are a lot of British Indian actors but in recent times there has been a good number of Brit Pak actors.

I dont think you can generalise which community has been more successful unless it's sports, Brit Paks are way ahead.

 

[Screopho]

Its quite simple. They are more educated, value education, are diverse and integrate very well. Same is true in US. My cousin who is third gen Indian in UK is more British than most ancestral British. Big shot and owns his own law firm. By the way I'm not full Indian if anyone brings in bias into picture. Indian dad, Australian mum, Pakistani husband who had a British dad and Pakistani mum and I consider myself a world citizen.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

That is some amazing logic. But I think Indian culture allows these kind of marrying out more than Pakistani culture, at a guess. Whether its marrying into a different religion, community. Education and wealth has a direct co-relation on women being more independent and allowed to take their own decisions. Back home we see this differentiation between educated well to do women vs those who are from poor, uneducated background

It's not logic, it's just an observation that is obvious to most people if you bother to look. Successful British Indian women don't tend to marry within their own culture. So it seems that financial and professional success aren't attractive enough traits alone. What other conclusion can you draw from this?

 

[Pakpak]

So why are Pakistanis from "Urban" areas in London and Scotland scraping the bottom of the barrel along with Bengali's?

I'll carry out a survey and get back to you!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Riz is big in the UK now. Ben Kingsley is a legend and didnt' know Mercury was of Indian heritage. Why don't they have desi names though? Not heard of the others tbh.

I dont think Bilal Saeed is British but i could be wrong. There are a lot of British Indian actors but in recent times there has been a good number of Brit Pak actors.

I dont think you can generalise which community has been more successful unless it's sports, Brit Paks are way ahead.

Freddie Mercury has Parsee heritage. I don't know if that community settled directly from Persia but that might explain the very light skin tone

 

[KingKhanWC]

Its quite simple. They are more educated, value education, are diverse and integrate very well. Same is true in US. My cousin who is third gen Indian in UK is more British than most ancestral British. Big shot and owns his own law firm. By the way I'm not full Indian if anyone brings in bias into picture. Indian dad, Australian mum, Pakistani husband who had a British dad and Pakistani mum and I consider myself a world citizen.

lol. This is just a type of Uncle Tom mentality. Leaving your culture isn't successful at all. People like this are made fun of whether they are Indian or Pakistani in the UK.

 

[TM Riddle]

Riz is big in the UK now. Ben Kingsley is a legend and didnt' know Mercury was of Indian heritage. Why don't they have desi names though? Not heard of the others tbh.

I dont think Bilal Saeed is British but i could be wrong. There are a lot of British Indian actors but in recent times there has been a good number of Brit Pak actors.

I dont think you can generalise which community has been more successful unless it's sports, Brit Paks are way ahead.

Dude Indian doesn't automatically mean Hindu.Mercury was a Parsi while Ben's original name is Krishanji or smth like that.
Lol you are the one who started the generalization in the first place with your claims of Pakistanis being far ahead of Indians in politics , music, movies and sports.
The only area they seem to be doing better than Indians is sports and there too there isn't much gap.

 

[mani1]

I'll carry out a survey and get back to you!

Maybe it's because 90% of them are villagers from the former Sikh heartlands and fraudulant asylum seekers hence had no real education, and this trend has been carried down to their generations after that. Which is why most of them still work in takeways, cabs, cash and carrys

 

[TM Riddle]

Freddie Mercury has Parsee heritage. I don't know if that community settled directly from Persia but that might explain the very light skin tone

Most Parsis are like that only.His family had been in India for centuries and he himself spent part of his teenage years in the country before emigrating to Britain.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

lol. This is just a type of Uncle Tom mentality. Leaving your culture isn't successful at all. People like this are made fun of whether they are Indian or Pakistani in the UK.

To be fair there are quite a few of these characters from Pakistan as well if PP is anything to go by. Mostly US Pakistanis would be my guess.

 

[Pakpak]

Maybe it's because 90% of them are villagers from the former Sikh heartlands and fraudulant asylum seekers hence had no real education, and this trend has been carried down to their generations after that. Which is why most of them still work in takeways, cabs, cash and carrys

Half of which I mentioned as well, my point was it has nothing to do with cousin marriages.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Dude Indian doesn't automatically mean Hindu.Mercury was a Parsi while Ben's original name is Krishanji or smth like that.
Lol you are the one who started the generalization in the first place with your claims of Pakistanis being far ahead of Indians in politics , music, movies and sports.
The only area they seem to be doing better than Indians is sports and there too there isn't much gap.

Where did I mention Hindu? lol. But let me tell you , every other Indian you meet here has changed their first name to an English names, Sikhs seem to be doing this more than Hindu's. You dont see this in Paks.

I didn't generalise but made references to specific areas where imo they are more successful but i clarified it's not right to generalise.

 

[KingKhanWC]

To be fair there are quite a few of these characters from Pakistan as well if PP is anything to go by. Mostly US Pakistanis would be my guess.

The US community find it difficult to even criticise their own government. I dont blame them tbh, if you're not a patriotic American and dont dance around your flag pole you are looked down and perhaps seen as suspicious. One of the great things about living in the UK, this type of mentality is not an obligation to live here.

 

[TM Riddle]

every other Indian you meet here has changed their first name to an English names, Sikhs seem to be doing this more than Hindu's. You dont see this in Paks.

That's well their personal choice but I personally am not a big fan of those Uncle Tom types.Khair to each their own.

 

[troodon]

Must be to do with his looks more than his singing ability ,wonder where his genes comes from.

He is half white.

 

[KingKhanWC]

He is half white.

I'm aware

 

[Robert]

didnt' know Mercury was of Indian heritage.

Thought he was a Parsi from Zanzibar?

 

[TM Riddle]

Thought he was a Parsi from Zanzibar?

Originally a Parsi from India.

 

[Syed1]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] how convenient that you forgot to mention Ben Kingsley and Freddie Mercury , the two absolute legends of their fields.
Oh and since we are talking of nobodies like Riz then we have Kunal Nayyer and Naveen Andrews.Dev Patel is of course a bigger star now a days.

Kumail Nanjiani grew up in Karachi and studied in the Karachi Grammar School, now he is a major cast member in the hit comedy sitcom Silicon Valley.


Checkmate

 

[big_gamer007]

Freddie Mercury has Parsee heritage. I don't know if that community settled directly from Persia but that might explain the very light skin tone

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] how convenient that you forgot to mention Ben Kingsley and Freddie Mercury , the two absolute legends of their fields.
Oh and since we are talking of nobodies like Riz then we have Kunal Nayyer and Naveen Andrews.Dev Patel is of course a bigger star now a days.

Freddie mercury is of Indian heritage? Didn't know that, he is arguably the best singer ever on the planet..

 

[TSA321]

Originally a Parsi from India.

He's not originally from India though, he was born and brought up in Zanzibar.

 

[TM Riddle]

He's not originally from India though, he was born and brought up in Zanzibar.

His family was from Gujarat.That's enough for me.Not to mention he lived for a few years in India too and was apparently a huge Lata Mangeshkar Fan.If Zayn Malik who is only a half Pakistani and probably hasn't even been to Pakistan can be cited as poster boy of successful British Pakistanis then so can Freddie.

 

[TM Riddle]

Kumail Nanjiani grew up in Karachi and studied in the Karachi Grammar School, now he is a major cast member in the hit comedy sitcom Silicon Valley.


Checkmate

Congrats man!

 

[kaayal]

He's not originally from India though, he was born and brought up in Zanzibar.

He was born to an Indian parents though.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/8828994/Freddie-Mercurys-family-tell-of-singers-pride-in-his-Asian-heritage.html

 

[Centurion]

Freddie Mercury's family tell of singers pride in his Asian heritage - The Telegraph UK

 

[Centurion]

He was born to an Indian parents though.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/8828994/Freddie-Mercurys-family-tell-of-singers-pride-in-his-Asian-heritage.html

Beat me to it by a minute

 

[CricketCartoons]

Kumail Nanjiani grew up in Karachi and studied in the Karachi Grammar School...

Wow, they have a school in Karachi just to teach grammar.

 

[confused_amoeba]

Brit-Paks, a majority are coming from rural and poor backgrounds back home, not sure if this is the same for Brit-Indians.

Instead of Zayn Malik, Riz Ahmed etc. what about the mayor of London, has someone mentioned him already?

 

[Syed1]

Wow, they have a school in Karachi just to teach grammar.

One should quit when he is ahead, yesterday you had a funny post and everybody commended you on it, but everyday is not Sunday my friend.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

His family was from Gujarat.That's enough for me.Not to mention he lived for a few years in India too and was apparently a huge Lata Mangeshkar Fan.If Zayn Malik who is only a half Pakistani and probably hasn't even been to Pakistan can be cited as poster boy of successful British Pakistanis then so can Freddie.

Zayn Malik's father is a full Pakistani, that's the side we are claiming. Freddie Mercury on the other hand, like most Indian Brits ditched his name (whatever that was) and called himself Freddie. Compare that with the bona fide Zayn Malik and his 100% Pakistani name. So the present generations reflect the character of the past, Alhamdulillah.

 

[cricketjoshila]

He's not originally from India though, he was born and brought up in Zanzibar.

Nopes. He is originally from India.Gujarat and Mumbai to be precise.He even did his schooling in Panchgani near Mumbai.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

One great aspect of Freddie's life is that he was one of the first gay superstars of the music world. His death from AIDS, while tragic, did a great deal to open people's eyes to that terrible disease and that in turn will have contributed a lot to the efforts to find a cure. India could do worse than use his example to spread the message there as well.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Is Meera Syal a known name in UK?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Is Meera Syal a known name in UK?

Amongst the Asian celebrities, yes. Although not many Asian celebrities are household names. Actually Amir Khan and Zayn Malik are, but they are the exception mostly.

 

[TSA321]

Nopes. He is originally from India.Gujarat and Mumbai to be precise.He even did his schooling in Panchgani near Mumbai.

Freddie Mercury was born Farrokh Bulsara on Thursday September 5th 1946 on the small spice island of Zanzibar.
http://www.freddie.ru/e/bio/

Originally from Zanzibar.

 

[Subaltern]

Freddie Mercury was born Farrokh Bulsara on Thursday September 5th 1946 on the small spice island of Zanzibar.
http://www.freddie.ru/e/bio/

Originally from Zanzibar.

Both were part of British Empire and in British empire, you are from where your ethnic community is 'originally from'. Therefore, Freddy Mercury, is officially Indian. Same reason why you didn't become an 'Englishman/British' if you were born in England pre-1947.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Amongst the Asian celebrities, yes. Although not many Asian celebrities are household names. Actually Amir Khan and Zayn Malik are, but they are the exception mostly.

She was pretty good in Goodness Gracious Me but fell away for some reason.

 

[enkidu_]

Nice, fighting over who has the best actors or sportsmen, who are just by products of modern cultural capitalism and add no plus value whatsoever to human civilization (who will remember Zayn Malik ?)

Jews basically control the world despite being 0.2% of its population but never heard them boasting about Rothschilds or something.

As for OP, the main difference is that Brit Paks are from rural working class while Brit Indians have many middle class peoples, already established businessmen for generations, like the Indians expelled by Idi Amin or those from back home.

A good comparaison would be to compare with the Indians in Canada : they too are rural working class "paindoos" (that is Sikh Jatts mainly) and they are into petty criminality like Brit Paks.

Tamils in France too have sulphurous reputation whereas those in the US, because they were IT specialists, engineers, ... who couldn't find decent jobs in a Nehruvian India (before Manmohan Singh's liberalization in the 90s) went to AmreeKKKa and filled the posts at Silicon Valley and the faculties.

If you throw rural working class, middle class businessmen or upper class engineers you're bound to end up with different sociological and even anthropological realities.

 

[Subaltern]

Nice, fighting over who has the best actors or sportsmen, who are just by products of modern cultural capitalism and add no plus value whatsoever to human civilization (who will remember Zayn Malik ?)

Art is the highest accomplishment of civilization, some would say. And people remember plenty of ordinary artists. Much more than your average engineer, doctor or businessman. Zayn Malik has a far higher chance of being remembered 200 years form now than Mian Muhammad Latif.

We know plenty of artists- great or mediocre- from 300 years ago. How many millionaires from 300 years ago do we remember ?

Jews basically control the world despite being 0.2% of its population but never heard them boasting about Rothschilds or something.

jews control the world = myth.

A good comparaison would be to compare with the Indians in Canada : they too are rural working class "paindoos" (that is Sikh Jatts mainly) and they are into petty criminality like Brit Paks.

indo-Canadian crime rate is way, way lower than Brit-Pak crime rate. This is because of far less prevalence of gangs in Canada.

 

[enkidu_]

Art is the highest accomplishment of civilization, some would say. And people remember plenty of ordinary artists. Much more than your average engineer, doctor or businessman.

Zayn Malik is not quite Da Vinci.

jews control the world = myth.

Looks like some peoples could even miss the sun in the sky during a bright day.

indo-Canadian crime rate is way, way lower than Brit-Pak crime rate. This is because of far less prevalence of gangs in Canada.

It's due to demographics reasons, not only because Sikhs (I don't talk of other Indian Canadians) are way less than Brit Paks but also because the latter have younger demographics.

But there's organized crime and gang violence among Indo Canadians. A report from few months ago but there's more literature on the subject, even in academic circles :

The killing of Satkar Singh Sidhu on Monday is the fifth homicide that is “connected to the conflict in Abbotsford” since 2014, according to a spokesperson for the city’s police department, Constable Ian MacDonald. He also attributed nearly 50 “major incidents” to the “ongoing conflict,” that involves youth of the area.
(...)
As much as 95% of the gang members are of South Asian origin, and mainly Indo-Canadian.
(...)
Indo-Canadian gang violence has been a feature of Vancouver and its suburbs since the 1990s and this phenomenon formed the basis for Indo-Canadian director Deepa Mehta’s 2015 film, Beeba Boys.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world...of-violence/story-54IxHX9QfgL5QGO8jDcnhI.html

 

[Subaltern]

Zayn Malik is not quite Da Vinci.

There are many, many artists of ordinary calibre who people still remember because of their art. My point is, you think artists are useless to civilization, which i disagree. And furthermore, your chances of being remembered are far greater as an ordinary artist than an ordinary businessman/engineer/doctor.

Looks like some peoples could even miss the sun in the sky during a bright day.

Sorry, but most people go by objective empirical evidence, not BS psychobabble with zero evidence. Feel free to provide empiric evidence that Jews control the world.

It's due to demographics reasons, not only because Sikhs (I don't talk of other Indian Canadians) are way less than Brit Paks but also because the latter have younger demographics.

All stats are per-capita,unless specified.
Didn't say there are NO Indo-Canadian gangs. I said gang stuff is less in Canada than in UK, not that it is non-existent.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Freddie Mercury was born Farrokh Bulsara on Thursday September 5th 1946 on the small spice island of Zanzibar.
http://www.freddie.ru/e/bio/

Originally from Zanzibar.

His Father worked for the British in the Zanzibar. Zanzibar was a British Colony/Protectorate at that time. Mercury returned back to India and did his schooling in Panchgani.

In 1954, at the age of eight, Freddie was shipped to St Peter's English boarding school in Panchgani, about fifty miles outside Bombay. It was there his friends began to call him Freddie, a name the family also adopted

 

[enkidu_]

There are many, many artists of ordinary calibre who people still remember because of their art. My point is, you think artists are useless to civilization, which i disagree. And furthermore, your chances of being remembered are far greater as an ordinary artist than an ordinary businessman/engineer/doctor.

I'm myself an artist. It's basically self criticism for the tribe. And modern "artists" are just pimps for the capitalist system which wants soulless consumers buying stuff.

Sorry, but most people go by objective empirical evidence, not BS psychobabble with zero evidence. Feel free to provide empiric evidence that Jews control the world.

Look up for David Duke videos.

All stats are per-capita,unless specified.
Didn't say there are NO Indo-Canadian gangs. I said gang stuff is less in Canada than in UK, not that it is non-existent.

The point was not quantification, but the fact that you have organized gang crime for a reason (sociology/anthropology of Indo Canadians, at least Sikhs). It was intellectualizing an issue, going beyond the memes and mantras.

 

[Subaltern]

I'm myself an artist. It's basically self criticism for the tribe. And modern "artists" are just pimps for the capitalist system which wants soulless consumers buying stuff.

All artists through history then, are pimps for the capitalist system.

Look up for David Duke videos.

I said empiric evidence. Start by showing jewish control over 50% of the world's corporations and 50% of the world's banks. I am not interested in correlative BS from youtube warriors who don't have enough education to even separate correlation from causation.
Neither is David Dukes presenting empirical evidence.

 

[enkidu_]

All artists through history then, are pimps for the capitalist system.

No, because capitalism is a modern phenomenon, even more so ultra capitalism which is only decades old, proposed through the neo liberal ideology.

All modern "art" is basically neo liberal ideology : look at the lyrics of these singers. It's all about ephemeral romantism, ghetto warfare, etc all things which perpetuate individualism and consumerism of capitalists.

On the other hand traditionalist artists connected you with transcendental values.

When you look at the Taj Mahal and when you listen to Nicki Minaj there's a different feel, scope and alchemy.

One is a lift towards spiritual emancipation the other stairways to materialistic dehumanization.

I said empiric evidence. Start by showing jewish control over 50% of the world's corporations and 50% of the world's banks. I am not interested in correlative BS from youtube warriors who don't have enough education to even separate correlation from causation.
Neither is David Dukes presenting empirical evidence.

David Duke always quotes his sources. But this thread isn't about Jews anyway. I'll perhaps open one and give irrefutable arguments.

 

[Romali_rotti]

lol who the heck is Riz khan ? I am American have never heard of this guy...

 

[Subaltern]

No, because capitalism is a modern phenomenon, even more so ultra capitalism which is only decades old, proposed through the neo liberal ideology.

A rose by any name is still a rose. Modern capitalism is applicable only to the banking systems and concept of creating wealth and money.
It matters not a jot to the artists or wage workers- whether its 2017 or 1017, they are still selling their services/art for a price. So no difference.

All modern "art" is basically neo liberal ideology : look at the lyrics of these singers. It's all about ephemeral romantism, ghetto warfare, etc all things which perpetuate individualism and consumerism of capitalists.

And there is also a lot of collectivist art. You don't sound like an artist if you think art is so narrow a field

On the other hand traditionalist artists connected you with transcendental values.

Only difference is, traditional art has pre-determined structure, modern art is 'chose your own adventure'. That is why modern art is flourishing and traditional art is stagnating, because people like to create something new and innovate, not perform within arbitrary guidelines of a ballet or qawaali.

When you look at the Taj Mahal and when you listen to Nicki Minaj there's a different feel, scope and alchemy.

One is a lift towards spiritual emancipation the other stairways to materialistic dehumanization.

Nothing more than trying to pass off personal opinion as fact. When i listen to sufi music, i feel like i am listening to stone-age idiots who've barely scratched the surface of music. Different strokes for different folks.

David Duke always quotes his sources. But this thread isn't about Jews anyway. I'll perhaps open one and give irrefutable arguments.

Feel free to substantiate your claims with empiric evidence. Which means data.

 

[enkidu_]

A rose by any name is still a rose. Modern capitalism is applicable only to the banking systems and concept of creating wealth and money.
It matters not a jot to the artists or wage workers- whether its 2017 or 1017, they are still selling their services/art for a price. So no difference.

That's not capitalism. Capitalism is linked with a wider anthropology centred around individualism. It begins with the like of Adam Smith. Societies before these of course had merchants but the societal reality itself was corporatist, not individualistic as capitalism wishes, and not consumerism-oriented either, that's why the art produced in medieval Europe for instance was disconnected from materialistic concerns.

And there is also a lot of collectivist art. You don't sound like an artist if you think art is so narrow a field

Collectivist art in socialist countries like the erstwhile Soviet Union, China or North Korea, me likes very much. I criticize capitalist societies only, and especially ultra capitalist ones (since Thatcher/Reagan era).

Only difference is, traditional art has pre-determined structure, modern art is 'chose your own adventure'. That is why modern art is flourishing and traditional art is stagnating, because people like to create something new and innovate, not perform within arbitrary guidelines of a ballet or qawaali.

Yes, individualism, which is the reason for postmodernist "art", you know, where a man pooping is considered "art".

Nothing more than trying to pass off personal opinion as fact. When i listen to sufi music, i feel like i am listening to stone-age idiots who've barely scratched the surface of music. Different strokes for different folks.

I prefer listening to birds the morning.

Feel free to substantiate your claims with empiric evidence. Which means data.

I'll open a thread perhaps, but prepare yourself to awaken.

 

[bleaf27]

I'll add in my 2 cents as well.
I think the reason behind that has a lot to do with Societal expectations and the cultural mindset. I'v grown up with a lot of Pakistani's and Canadian-Pakistani's and I've usually found that barring the Canadian Pakistani which are 2nd or 3rd generation , most of my Pakistani friends do not really view academic achievement or monetary achievement as a measure of success or something to be proud of. Indo-Canadians or Indian society in general is quite achievement heavy - marks in school , familial pressure , to make money etc - all these factors tie in how you view yourself and how others may view you. Couple of my good friends (Pakistani backround) work at the Pearson in security and growing up together I never saw the familial pressure of studies , and universities and making a career as something of a priority.
They all started working odd jobs and got married early and now settled in their routine whereas I was quite neck deep in my education until my late 20s.
I am not arguing which is the correct approach or what's better but this is purely my observation - In Pak cultural makeup - family / religion play a much stronger role where as the Indian cultural makeup focuses quite intensively on academics / worth / career etc. I think to some extent this may explain some of the differences quite commonly observed in US/Canada/UK as well.

 

[Subaltern]

That's not capitalism. Capitalism is linked with a wider anthropology centred around individualism. It begins with the like of Adam Smith. Societies before these of course had merchants but the societal reality itself was corporatist, not individualistic as capitalism wishes, and not consumerism-oriented either, that's why the art produced in medieval Europe for instance was disconnected from materialistic concerns.

The fundamental aspect of capitalism is trading your service for money and the highest bidder wins. Adam Smith simply extended the same concept to banking and creation of wealth in a formalized fashion.

From an artists viewpoint, its the same- whether its DaVinci selling his creation to the highest bidder or an artist doing it today, its all the same. Whether its the designer of Mecca mosque or nightclubs in London, they are artists, who are building what the man with the money wants them to build.

Collectivist art in socialist countries like the erstwhile Soviet Union, China or North Korea, me likes very much. I criticize capitalist societies only, and especially ultra capitalist ones (since Thatcher/Reagan era).

Criticizing success and living in a dreamworld made up of fantasy seems to be your thing.

I'll open a thread perhaps, but prepare yourself to awaken.

Prepare yourself to present empiric evidence to substantiate your claims. I am expecting data, not opinions of random people.

 

[Specialisttailender]

I haven't checked the numbers but im pretty sure there have been more Brit Pak Councillors and MPs too. Recently I think there are more actors, comedians and singers. Fair enough Zayn Malik is mixed race but there is no Indian singer anywhere near his level and then there is the likes of Riz Khan who is big in Hollywood now. Indians are good at business but in terms of sheer numbers Brit Paks own more businesses.

Jay sean.....

 

[MABA]

I think the major difference economically is the difference between attitudes when it pertains to women working. Most first gen Indian women work while first gen Pakistani women do not. Since I came to Canada both my parents have worked while most of my friends mothers did not even though they would be of the same age and in some instances were quite qualified. Its a real shame to be honest but thankfully this attitude is changing.

 

[czar]

Brit Paks should let us know why Brit Indians are more successful?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Brit Paks should let us know why Brit Indians are more successful?

British Indians don't really have a reputation for being successful in the UK if truth be told. I have only ever seen this theory being presented on Pakistani forums like this one. British Indians are mostly invisible in British life as far as the general public is concerned.

 

[czar]

British Indians don't really have a reputation for being successful in the UK if truth be told. I have only ever seen this theory being presented on Pakistani forums like this one. British Indians are mostly invisible in British life as far as the general public is concerned.

I will take your word on that.

 

[MenInG]

In the US, the story is different - so many prominent positions being held in government and private sectors

 

[boomboomcheema]

The Mayor of London is of Pakistani heritage, Indians otoh are so invisible in public sphere in the UK.

 

[SandyB]

We prioritise money, education and survival above this "pursuit of Jannat".. /End of thread.

If you look at the majority of religious conservative Indians overseas, you'd realize that most are super wealthy or were migrants from richer Indian families. Whereas most middle class migrants ( techies, engineers and most South Indians) put religious/cultural adherence on the back-burner till they have really become well set .Simply because many aspects of those are counterproductive to their aspirations in the new country !

Many go back to religion/culture once they are in a kind of safe stable spot, which is why you find that a lot of the Hindutva supporters in the States are mostly middle/old aged, high earning Indians .

Let me give you an example how this works , my southern State of Kerala in India has some of the highest per capita rate of educated/skilled expats and migrants to US/Europe and the Middle east.

Before the IT boom the major area for migrants was Nursing/paramedical fields. It continues to be for women even now. Marrying a nurse was a sure-shot way of getting a chance to migrate to the EU or US or earn high salaries in the middle east .

But once you reach there , the nurse has to work long hours, so it becomes difficult for her to look after the kids/household. If both parents are working in many cases it becomes nearly impossible to focus on the children's education and upbringing . So many men give up their jobs and take up the "homemaker" duties, because that's the only way they can ensure that the household runs well and the kids are raised/looked after properly ! The woman earns considerably more than the man ever will , so that partner with the lesser earning job Quits.

Tell me how many men in Pakistan would even let your wife take up a job that pays more than you ? Let alone take up the homemaker job and let the women be the "breadwinner". Would their adherence to their culture/religion allow it ?


Mind you these Indian men (it's mostly a south Indian phenomenon) are the same kind of "Mards" who make the "aurat ki aukaat" statements back home. But at one stage they realize that for obtaining the optimal results for their children and family stability they have to make this compromise and put their ego on a leash .

Through these kind of life choices most Indian parents are able to focus maximum energy on the children, with very little impact on quality of life, and the kids get well eqiupped to take on the western educational system and achieve better .

 

[Romali_rotti]

In the US, the story is different - so many prominent positions being held in government and private sectors

Very true, Pakistanis in the US are quite successful because they are not the defenders of Islam like in the UK. I visited Birmingham UK once and the amount of beehive beards and religious backwards ppl I saw there made it feel like a 3rd world country...

 

[kaayal]

^ this reminds me of the malayalam sitcom "Akkara kazhchakal" lol.

 

[Romali_rotti]

^ this reminds me of the malayalam sitcom "Akkara kazhchakal" lol.

George Thekumuttil...