Why are Indians against self-criticism?

[KingKhanWC]

One of the most obvious and biggest differences I've noticed living alongside Indians and seeing them post on social media is they are very reluctant in criticising their nation.

India has more poverty than sub saharan Africa, yet I've never heard an Indian protesting or criticising their nation over it. They all seem to feel India is a superpower now and should get a seat at the UNSC.

To this day I've never heard a single Indian condemn any act of brutality by their forces in Kashmir.

Modi was banned in various nations. Since his rise to power right wing extremism has taken a new lease of life with minorities being targeted esp with the beef bans yet hardly read any condemnation of such policies.

India refuses to play Pakistan in cricket, yet Indians dismiss this as being right due to relations between both countries.

On the other hand Pakistsani's are very open and very criticial of anything in Pakistan which is wrong. Most want to play cricket with India, most criticise their army and government, most demand change against any laws which seem to discriminate minorities.

Can anyone shed light on these differing mindsets?
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] [MENTION=140459]SandyB[/MENTION] @TMriddle [MENTION=141520]troodon[/MENTION] @kayaal [MENTION=137142]JaDed[/MENTION] [MENTION=136588]CricketCartoons[/MENTION] [MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION]

 

[Syed1]

Maybe the Indians don't want to give a bad image of their country infront of the "enemy nation"... If I happened to frequent an Indian forum I wouldn't be badmouthing Pakistan either infront of them.

 

[Enigma_]

Victim complex. Insecure.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Maybe the Indians don't want to give a bad image of their country infront of the "enemy nation"... If I happened to frequent an Indian forum I wouldn't be badmouthing Pakistan either infront of them.

Seems to be the case on PP for sure.

But when I speak to Indians in the UK, I criticise some aspects of Pakistan in front of them such as corruption, NS etc but they never do in return.

Have you found the same in Canada or are they more open face to face there?

 

[Syed1]

Seems to be the case on PP for sure.

But when I speak to Indians in the UK, I criticise some aspects of Pakistan in front of them such as corruption, NS etc but they never do in return.

Have you found the same in Canada or are they more open face to face there?

I found people from the South more critical of India and willing to criticize it than people from Delhi or Punjab etc.

 

[finalfantasy7]

extreme nationalistic - hence the funny stupid comments.

I play badminton with a Indian Muslim and the funny comments he asks and always bad mouth Pakistan. yet completely ignores the massive problems.

Both countries media are a joke, but you will agree with me and say that he pakistani's see things more neautral way than indians.

Interesting to see if james and robert comments regarding this topic

 

[ShadabFakhar]

A rise of Hindutva extremism means even those who do see the criticism will probably be branded traitors down the line. Pakistan has a problem but most are aware and trying to counter it, India has a problem and they're encouraging it. Fastest growing economy is all that matters to them.

 

[ExpressPacer]

I've wanted to make a similar thread for a long time. I completely never understand this. They have massive problems, a lot of corruption, the wrong leaders and wrong priorities but they try justify everything. I remember a poster even justifying rape in an argument once. It's completely beyond me how this is possible. I guess they have a false sense of aggressive patriotism and nationalism which leads them to accepting and justifying every wrongs of their leaders and country.

A wise man once said, "To fix a problem, you must first accept that the problem exists.". It isn't a matter of whether they live under a rock and don't know what's going on - they certainly do. The exactly know what the wrongs and rights are but they keep themselves deluded. Possibly to feel better.

India can never succeed because a nation that is never able to question themselves or their leaders will always remain in poverty and ignorance.

 

[ahsan17]

It is one of the most unique aspects of Indians compared to other nationalities. There seems to be very little diversity in opinion across India. If you are not an Indian and you criticize their country, their usual first response is to say that your country has problems x, y, z and thus you should not be criticizing India. But those same Indians would be talking crap about other countries wholeheartedly in other places. Diversion is usually the first form of defense. Some of them usually have pre-meditated responses for certain criticisms of their country.

This is not just with Pakistanis. They do this with anyone who criticizes their country. Check out BBC articles - every time you see one that remotely shows India in a negative way, they get really defensive and start criticizing BBC.

You really don't see this with any other nationality. People are generally open to criticism of their own country and often criticize their country themselves. This includes developed countries like US, Canada, Australia, UK, Scandinavian countries, etc. If other people criticize those countries, the citizens are generally open to the criticism as long as it is valid and constructive.

Another thing - Indians frequently use how much their country is liked or other countries are disliked by western nations to gauge themselves, which is not something I've seen other people do.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

Any Indian who criticize and questions is labelled as Anti-India. My Indian friend who was sad and angry on killing of innocent Kashmiris but couldn't even put a facebook status because he knew he will be labelled as Anti-India.

 

[Specialisttailender]

If you criticize your country you are an "anti-indian", that is the message that Indian central government, politicians and the media have created. On top of this, desis like to always blame others for their fault.

 

[KingKhanWC]

There was a video on fb where a racist man attacked an Indian girl but luckily her brother was around to help her. What shocked me was she kept repeating she is not a 'Pakistani' (the abbreviated version) but an Indian and he shouldn't have attacked her. Seemed like some type of weird superiority complex thinking racist should know better as if Indians shouldn't be subjected to racism because they are nothing like Pakistanis.

 

[IMMY69]

I honestly think they are an insecure nation.
A lot of their statements and actions are bourne out of insecurity.

 

[ShadabFakhar]

I've wanted to make a similar thread for a long time. I completely never understand this. They have massive problems, a lot of corruption, the wrong leaders and wrong priorities but they try justify everything. I remember a poster even justifying rape in an argument once. It's completely beyond me how this is possible. I guess they have a false sense of aggressive patriotism and nationalism which leads them to accepting and justifying every wrongs of their leaders and country.

A wise man once said, "To fix a problem, you must first accept that the problem exists.". It isn't a matter of whether they live under a rock and don't know what's going on - they certainly do. The exactly know what the wrongs and rights are but they keep themselves deluded. Possibly to feel better.

India can never succeed because a nation that is never able to question themselves or their leaders will always remain in poverty and ignorance.

Exactly this. Their extremism is going unchecked in the name of patriotism and will have disastrous consequences.

 

[Dios]

Denial.
Delusions of grandeur.
False sense of pride.

I still remember the uproar caused by Slumdog Millionaire because it exposed the brutal realities that millions still face in 'Shining India' to the rest of the world, something that the NRI-centric, pretentious Bollywood industry conveniently tends to steer well clear of.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] I think the British ones in general are not so bad, my sikh friend was joining in protests against modi when he came over here and others who went with me to school in brum always display solidarity with all communities and muslims; we only fight over the cricket know of a hindu guy who is one of my close friends, he's a brahmin but not really into politics etc but his family support modi blindly and got tickets for the wembley show.

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] I think the British ones in general are not so bad, my sikh friend was joining in protests against modi when he came over here and others who went with me to school in brum always display solidarity with all communities and muslims; we only fight over the cricket know of a hindu guy who is one of my close friends, he's a brahmin but not really into politics etc but his family support modi blindly and got tickets for the wembley show.

Yep, the Sikhs I've spoken to have a slightly different perspective but many in the UK are still angry over operation blue star and are highly critical of India but usually for reasons related to this. I have a Hindu friend, hes a great guy, comes from a wealthy family living in Edgbaston, he will never criticise India though. He will just change the subject.

 

[Stewie]

Indians are quietly critical of the ills in their country. They may not admit it openly in front of Pakistanis in particular but I have some close Indian friends and at our gatherings there are moments when they let loose about that stuff.

Pakistanis in general are more open and critical of our country but the Indians usually see it as airing their own dirty laundry and don't do it, there are some who refuse to believe any problems exist at all.

 

[PakLFC]

They think they are better then everyone else despite being the poorest country in the world. They have been so brainwashed by their teachers of this "mera bharat mahaan" nonsense that it is difficult for them to analyse anything rationally. Bharat is not "mahaan" and never will be.

 

[aloo paratha]

I've wanted to make a similar thread for a long time. I completely never understand this. They have massive problems, a lot of corruption, the wrong leaders and wrong priorities but they try justify everything. I remember a poster even justifying rape in an argument once. It's completely beyond me how this is possible. I guess they have a false sense of aggressive patriotism and nationalism which leads them to accepting and justifying every wrongs of their leaders and country.

A wise man once said, "To fix a problem, you must first accept that the problem exists.". It isn't a matter of whether they live under a rock and don't know what's going on - they certainly do. The exactly know what the wrongs and rights are but they keep themselves deluded. Possibly to feel better.

India can never succeed because a nation that is never able to question themselves or their leaders will always remain in poverty and ignorance.

We have a certain poster on PP who I won't name, but he defends every move the BCCI makes, no matter how ridiculous it may sound.

I guess it's the same for a lot of other people in India as well.

What's funny is, when you see people say anything remotely negative about India, a lot of Indians just start swearing in return rather than even defending themselves. Obviously this doesn't happen on PP because it is strictly monitored.

 

[Abdul]

The Indians that I know personally aren't like this!

 

[www787]

Or maybe they are brainwashed not to self criticized?

 

[Black Zero]

Chinese also have similar mindset.

 

[Tera Gawaandi]

Indians have 'chalta hai', 'chalo koi na', 'Shodo yaar' attitude. Criticism should serve a purpose that is constructive. Indians are dheeth lol.

 

[kaayal]

Seriously why would we air our dirty laundry in front of Pakistani's in this forum?

It's not like we don't criticise ourself at all, we actually do when the other person is pretty reasonable and really understand us. It's only the Modi fan's who can't take any criticism at all.

 

[ExpressPacer]

There's actually quite a few Indians I know (even on this forum) who are open to criticism but the majority have had their ego sky rocketed to the moon in recent years, assuming they are already the greatest superpower to have dawned Earth in all of history. This is a major problem because with vanity also comes complacency, which has been the disease of many a great man and many a great nation!

The comedic aspect about it is that the ego is based off of basically nothing.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Seriously why would we air our dirty laundry in front of Pakistani's in this forum?

It's not like we don't criticise ourself at all, we actually do when the other person is pretty reasonable and really understand us. It's only the Modi fan's who can't take any criticism at all.

Then why are such proud, vain and aggressively nationalistic deluded Indians on a Pakistani forum in the first place? My intention is not to put you off but I don't think Pakistani's have ever had problems criticizing themselves, their policies, their law and their own head of state, even in foreign land if they are corrupt. Protests against NS in London, Switzerland by Pakistani's are one of the few examples, and NS is an extremely corrupt man at most. Modi on the other hand is a guilty mass murderer yet Indians go at full stretch to justify his acts. Is this patriotism or delusion?

 

[ExpressPacer]

We have a certain poster on PP who I won't name, but he defends every move the BCCI makes, no matter how ridiculous it may sound.

I guess it's the same for a lot of other people in India as well.

What's funny is, when you see people say anything remotely negative about India, a lot of Indians just start swearing in return rather than even defending themselves. Obviously this doesn't happen on PP because it is strictly monitored.

The two most annoying Indian's on this forum have stopped posting after the epic thrashing on the 18th. However, I noticed they still come online, just don't have the heart to post after all the hate they spurred against Pakistan. Good that they're gone tbh. They weren't a good representation of how Indians are. While they may be hesitant to criticize their country even for the wrongs, the rest aren't as deluded as those two.

One of the best posters on this forum are [MENTION=134981]Bhaag Viru Bhaag[/MENTION] and SIF. Pity SIF stopped posting though. These two are extremely unbiased and I trust their opinion and views.

 

[Saeed]

Seriously why would we air our dirty laundry in front of Pakistani's in this forum?

How does this concept even work in the age of mass media? Pretty much anyone interested can visit Indian sites to check out what's going on in India. It's really hard to keep secrets.

 

[Hornbill]

[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] and some other posters are the only ones who have guts to criticize the deep state and their policies, Tbh they have every right to point fingers at indians others are not much better than the indians.

 

[Slog]

Seriously why would we air our dirty laundry in front of Pakistani's in this forum?
.

This is one of them ore inane posts

Everyone knows India's problems, of which there are many.

But it would be nice to have an Indian perspective

In any case even on many forums, there isnt any ownership of the issues plaguing the country

The default responses to such debates are one of the following:
a) denial (doesn't exist)
b) deflection (Country X is worse in this regard)
c) scapegoat (Its only Bihar and UP)

 

[WebGuru]

One of the best posters on this forum are [MENTION=134981]Bhaag Viru Bhaag[/MENTION] and SIF. Pity SIF stopped posting though. These two are extremely unbiased and I trust their opinion and views.

Both are my fav indian posters i always enjoyed reading their posts in Cricket section although i am no more active in Cricket section these days and they are not very active in Time Pass section.

 

[Napa]

India has more poverty than sub saharan Africa, yet I've never heard an Indian protesting or criticising their nation over it.

Given that India's per cap PPP GDP is $6,200 and Paksitan's $5,000 and India is the fastest growing major economy, I think your concern about Indian poverty is misplaced.

They all seem to feel India is a superpower now and should get a seat at the UNSC.

Indeed, as the world's largest democracy and soon to be the world's third largest economy (see the PPP GDP predictions for 2030 in another thread) a permanent seat is reasonable.

On the other hand Pakistsani's are very open and very criticial of anything in Pakistan which is wrong.

Can anyone shed light on these differing mindsets?

Press freedom in India is slightly better than Pakistan according this ranking (136 vs. 139)

https://rsf.org/en/ranking

and much better according to this ranking (52 vs. 102)

http://www.worldaudit.org/press.htm

If you watch channels like NDTV or read any of the major Indian newspapers (easily available on the internet) you will see there is a lot of criticism of both the government and the country. Of course, if there is more reason to criticize (for example the recent Panamagate) there will be more criticism.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Because we are patriots. Patriotism doesn't mean just standing for the country, it also means standing for the State and the Government. Anyone who says otherwise does not matter.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Because we are patriots. Patriotism doesn't mean just standing for the country, it also means standing for the State and the Government. Anyone who says otherwise does not matter.

You meant to say deluded, aggressive Patriots who don't believe in reality, have a false sense of nationalism and take pleasure in making their country sound like a bunch of joker's.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Given that India's per cap PPP GDP is $6,200 and Paksitan's $5,000 and India is the fastest growing major economy, I think your concern about Indian poverty is misplaced.



Indeed, as the world's largest democracy and soon to be the world's third largest economy (see the PPP GDP predictions for 2030 in another thread) a permanent seat is reasonable.



Press freedom in India is slightly better than Pakistan according this ranking (136 vs. 139)

https://rsf.org/en/ranking

and much better according to this ranking (52 vs. 102)

http://www.worldaudit.org/press.htm

If you watch channels like NDTV or read any of the major Indian newspapers (easily available on the internet) you will see there is a lot of criticism of both the government and the country. Of course, if there is more reason to criticize (for example the recent Panamagate) there will be more criticism.

With people being forced to eat rats and the ministers actually encouraging them, his concern about Indian poverty is genuinely justified. With a population growth rate faster than most in the world and with the world's largest illiterate population, I don't even want to think of how deluded you are.

India is certainly not the world's largest democracy. That myth has been debunked a million times already. The beef ban is the most recent example of how your claim is wrong on so many levels.

You can present any statistics you want but the point is, this image of growing India or whatever you have is solely based on myths. Any intellectual minds that have come across have boarded ships of newer horizons outside India.

There is plenty to criticize, the biggest example being the fact that your PM is a mass murderer and terrorist. But we don't see it happen and you know better why it is so.

 

[OneTip-OneHand]

I don't think Indians are open for self criticism. I have never come across any person who doesn't acknowledge the problems in our country, even the most patriotic ones.

The problem starts when Pakistanis throw the generalized statements like - ' India is the poorest country the world/3rd world country and always remain so' 'They have narrow mindset' 'Delusional' etc etc. Of course I'll defend my nation and my fellow country men.

How'd you react if i say- Pakistanis force their women to wear black tent. Or Pakistan is a safe heaven for terrorists, example- Osama, Hafeez Saeed, Masood azhar,Dawood, Salahuddin.. I'm sure everyone will start bad mouthing about India.

There is a dialogue from some movie of Raj Kumar- 'Jaani jinke ghar sheeshe ke hote hain wo dusro ke gharo pe pathhar nahi fekte'
Last byt not least majority of Indians don't share the same Kashmir narrative as Pakistanis. And what the hell is hindu extremism. India is secular nation with 80% hindus in it. But what we have seen is Muslim/Minority appeasement from so called secular political parties. They themselves to be blamed for this discrimation mentality. So if a group of Hindus think that BJP/Modi is their savior, i won't blame them. Nobody wants to go to the root of problems.

 

[OneTip-OneHand]

With people being forced to eat rats and the ministers actually encouraging them, his concern about Indian poverty is genuinely justified. With a population growth rate faster than most in the world and with the world's largest illiterate population, I don't even want to think of how deluded you are.

India is certainly not the world's largest democracy. That myth has been debunked a million times already. The beef ban is the most recent example of how your claim is wrong on so many levels.

You can present any statistics you want but the point is, this image of growing India or whatever you have is solely based on myths. Any intellectual minds that have come across have boarded ships of newer horizons outside India.

There is plenty to criticize, the biggest example being the fact that your PM is a mass murderer and terrorist. But we don't see it happen and you know better why it is so.

Buddy care about your madarsa Education system. We are doing good in Education although lots of improvement is required.

 

[CricketCartoons]

You meant to say deluded, aggressive Patriots who don't believe in reality, have a false sense of nationalism and take pleasure in making their country sound like a bunch of joker's.

Better than those traitors who call for the resignation of their soft spoken decent elected premier and want to throw their country into instability and into the hands of the wolves.

 

[OneTip-OneHand]

With people being forced to eat rats and the ministers actually encouraging them, his concern about Indian poverty is genuinely justified. With a population growth rate faster than most in the world and with the world's largest illiterate population, I don't even want to think of how deluded you are.

India is certainly not the world's largest democracy. That myth has been debunked a million times already. The beef ban is the most recent example of how your claim is wrong on so many levels.

You can present any statistics you want but the point is, this image of growing India or whatever you have is solely based on myths. Any intellectual minds that have come across have boarded ships of newer horizons outside India.

There is plenty to criticize, the biggest example being the fact that your PM is a mass murderer and terrorist. But we don't see it happen and you know better why it is so.

And what our PM is our concern. He has been cleared by Supreme Court of India. And thats good enough for most of us.

You should be the last people to preach about terrorism.Serving biryani to the likes Osama, Dawood, Masood Azhar, Hafeez Saeed, Salahuddin. I thought after Peshawar incident you guys must have understood that if you pet a snake, its bound to bite you one day.

 

[ExpressPacer]

I don't think Indians are open for self criticism. I have never come across any person who doesn't acknowledge the problems in our country, even the most patriotic ones.

The problem starts when Pakistanis throw the generalized statements like - ' India is the poorest country the world/3rd world country and always remain so' 'They have narrow mindset' 'Delusional' etc etc. Of course I'll defend my nation and my fellow country men.

How'd you react if i say- Pakistanis force their women to wear black tent. Or Pakistan is a safe heaven for terrorists, example- Osama, Hafeez Saeed, Masood azhar,Dawood, Salahuddin.. I'm sure everyone will start bad mouthing about India.

There is a dialogue from some movie of Raj Kumar- 'Jaani jinke ghar sheeshe ke hote hain wo dusro ke gharo pe pathhar nahi fekte'
Last byt not least majority of Indians don't share the same Kashmir narrative as Pakistanis. And what the hell is hindu extremism. India is secular nation with 80% hindus in it. But what we have seen is Muslim/Minority appeasement from so called secular political parties. They themselves to be blamed for this discrimation mentality. So if a group of Hindus think that BJP/Modi is their savior, i won't blame them. Nobody wants to go to the root of problems.

Your post is the most hilarious thing I've seen all July. I couldn't help myself laugh out loud. Hope my colleagues don't mind me bursting into laughter reading every sentence of your post. This post is the exact reason why such threads are made. Firstly, to set your delusions aside. India most definitely IS the poorest country in the world with the most number of people living WAAAY below the poverty line and you guys lead by some distance so, congratulsions!

Secondly, you do have a narrow mindset. Assuming you represent the Indian population, you mere post proves your minsdset and delusion.

Thirdly, India is a third world country. Who ever led you to believing that a country where millions and millions of people don't have access to basic sanitation can be categorized as developing, let alone developed.

Now coming down to your comments regarding Pakistan, firstly the women wear the burqa by choice and sorry to pop your bubble but only a small percentage of people do so. Go and have a look at Hyderabad in India and you'll find almsot every other woman in a "black tent", unlike Pakistan. Please increase your knowledge before making posts in the TP section.

You can claim whatever about Pakistan being a safe haven for terrorists but we're still better off as long as our bloody PRIME MINISTER isnt guilty of mass murderer and terrorist. And lastly, to bring you back to Earth, India is far from being secular. The Beef ban is the most recent example.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Better than those traitors who call for the resignation of their soft spoken decent elected premier and want to throw their country into instability and into the hands of the wolves.

"Soft spoken decent" doesn't matter if you're corrupt. And the riggings been proven time and again with VIDEO evidence so don't understand what you're trying to get at here with saying he's elected..

 

[ExpressPacer]

And what our PM is our concern. He has been cleared by Supreme Court of India. And thats good enough for most of us.

You should be the last people to preach about terrorism.Serving biryani to the likes Osama, Dawood, Masood Azhar, Hafeez Saeed, Salahuddin. I thought after Peshawar incident you guys must have understood that if you pet a snake, its bound to bite you one day.

You're making a fool out of yourself and proving the analogy mentioned by OP true with every single post of yours. Your PM, your concern. Haha nice. Guilty of mass murderer and he's good enough for you hahaha. Also why bring the debate to Pakistan?! Stick to talking about India.

 

[OneTip-OneHand]

I've made it clear I don't have a problem with Indians being on here because gladly and hopefully, you don't represent the majority. You sound like a patriotic individual and I respect that, maybe I would be the same if I grew up in the same environment as though of yours and I would think Pakistan isnt even an atom compared to Indis, but unfortunately, that's not the case. Your media, your leaders and politicians can feed you lies but the world won't believe you.


Also, a bit of advice on the side note, our Govt. and almost every state in the world feeds lies to their citizens, whether or not you choose to see the reality is your own choice. Start trying to develop an opinion for yourself. An unbiased one.

Well thanks for the advice buddy. As i said in other posts i know and acknowledge the problems with my country. I have lived in various parts of India and i can assure you that i certainly don't belong to minority when it comes to putting my opinions/ views.

I don't support anything just because our govt.or media said so. I just had a problem with the motive of this thread which is evident from many posts- Unnecessary India bashing.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Well thanks for the advice buddy. As i said in other posts i know and acknowledge the problems with my country. I have lived in various parts of India and i can assure you that i certainly don't belong to minority when it comes to putting my opinions/ views.

I don't support anything just because our govt.or media said so. I just had a problem with the motive of this thread which is evident from many posts- Unnecessary India bashing.

Great. Happy we can end the debate on a positive note.

 

[OneTip-OneHand]

Also i understand that its a Pakistani forum so these things are bound to happen. India Vs. Pakistan.

Im on this forum because i read a lot. More of a reader than poster which evident from my profile(340 posts in 2 years). You learn many things from forums.

And plz dont P.S. me because i know that this postnis not relevant to the topic

 

[ExpressPacer]

Also i understand that its a Pakistani forum so these things are bound to happen. India Vs. Pakistan.

Im on this forum because i read a lot. More of a reader than poster which evident from my profile(340 posts in 2 years). You learn many things from forums.

And plz dont P.S. me because i know that this postnis not relevant to the topic

Post more


Indo Pak debates make this forum interesting

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Insecurity.

We're brought up with the notion, India is best. So when someone highlights something that is wrong then it hurts the image we have of our nation and no one wants to feel insecure. So we tend to hide the fact that something is wrong rather than acknowledging it and working to fix that.

However this trait isn't just true to Indians as the thread title is trying to suggest and anyone that denies it, is in denial.

 

[DW44]

Criticism of the kind being discussed here usually comes from the liberal segments of society and I've never seen lamer ducks than Indian liberals. Even in Pakistan, the one or so percent of the population that is liberal accounts for the bulk of introspection and self critique that goes on here while the rest limit their criticism to corrupt politicians while religiously defending the most unconscionable actions of the Pakistani state and people. Just see how defensive the average Pakistani, who leaves no stone unturned in condemning cow lynchings, gets when someone criticizes the use of death penalty for blasphemy or the Pakistani army's shenanigans that routinely make a mockery of the law, democratic norms and human rights.

 

[the Great Khan]

ive got loads of Indian friends..some indian muslim friends loved the fact we beat them in that final..i was shocked..but many of them just dont talk politics. And when they do it can get a bit weird because Pakistan domes in for alot of unnecessary criticism. The usual tropes about Kargil and terrorism. I avoid it to be honest. but when I need to I get the message across..

 

[ExpressPacer]

ive got loads of Indian friends..some indian muslim friends loved the fact we beat them in that final..i was shocked..but many of them just dont talk politics. And when they do it can get a bit weird because Pakistan domes in for alot of unnecessary criticism. The usual tropes about Kargil and terrorism. I avoid it to be honest. but when I need to I get the message across..

Shocking. Even though I'm as Pakistani as they come, I'm happy to see most Indian Muslims outside of Kashmir are happy about living in India and have a brotherhood with Hindus and Sikhs. That's good for global peace. Even after Pakistan won the match and Pakistani fans were taunting Indian cricketers, it was an Indian Muslim, Mohammad Shami, the only one that reacted.

 

[the Great Khan]

Shocking. Even though I'm as Pakistani as they come, I'm happy to see most Indian Muslims outside of Kashmir are happy about living in India and have a brotherhood with Hindus and Sikhs. That's good for global peace. Even after Pakistan won the match and Pakistani fans were taunting Indian cricketers, it was an Indian Muslim, Mohammad Shami, the only one that reacted.

i was surprised. Its the first time Ive seen some Indian Muslims being very vocal about how they loved the thrashing. Some were gutted obviously but quite a few enjoyed it..definite change from say 2011.

 

[SandyB]

Indians have 'chalta hai', 'chalo koi na', 'Shodo yaar' attitude.

True.

This chorr do, chalta hai, rehne de , "ho jayega", "hona hi thaa " attitude is the reason why a country of 40-50 languages, 29 states and numerous races, all derived from 500+ small kingdoms and myriad cultures manage to stick together for 70 years.

If you think that all Indians would've been much more self critical of their country since the beginning , we'd be 10-15 countries already.

The success of Pakistan was that they basically had one very strong adhesive (apart from nationalism) that was used to hold you all together - Islam. You also only had 5 big provinces and maybe 10 (not sure) or so languages to deal with too, and you did it by basically imposing a completely foreign language aka Urdu on the whole nation. Why did that work ? Again , it was because Urdu was linked to your main religion.

If you understand the history of how Pakistan was formed, you'd get clearly what the BJP/RSS is trying to do in India now.

Pakistanis I feel are much more critical of their country, but if you change "criticism of pakistan" to "criticism of Islam" to the same group of people, you'll get far more of the hyper-defensive statements from the same set of people.

That is beacuse , from a country which in 1947 was held together by "Pakistaniyat" (which is guess is your expression for nationalism), you have morphed into a country that is held together by Islam.

India is still held together by the "Idea of India", and the idea is strengthened by real/perceived threats to that Idea by external factors like (Pakistan, China, imperialism in the past etc) . The BJP is basically trying to transform this country into being held together by religion (aka Vedic Hinduism, and all associated cultural entities like Sanskrit/Hindi, hindu culture and so on), which will act as a much stronger glue than a country held together by nationalism.

 

[Stewie]

High Per capita GDP does not mean poverty is low. This is a big misunderstanding and quite common. In some cases it's a damning indication of income inequality and it shows in India's stats if ou look at them. For such a massive population, their per capita GDP is higher than Pakistan but not by a massive amount. There is a significantly larger percentage of people who are homeless and sleep on the streets in India.
I know this is an older artIcle but I don't thInk much would have changed in the last six years:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...els-higher-than-Pakistans-says-UN-report.html

Now see if you compare the list of richest people in India and Pakistan you will notice India has much more billionaires than Pakistan. So what does this mean?

Income seems to be concentrated with a select few. What the Americans refer to as the top 1%. By the way it's a big problem everywhere including US but it's more pronounced in India and Indians can't just cite their GDP and bury their heads in the sand. Extreme poverty, substandard living conditions and homelessness are rampant there and it's a big problem. Pakistan has its own challenges but it's not so bad there as India in terms of homelessness and poverty.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Other than what [MENTION=133135]kaayal[/MENTION] said.Criticism takes place when on the right topics and on the right place so that some remedy may happen.Its slow but its getting better.

Now coming to this thread.Its often seen on PP that Pakistanis are outraged by some acts of Indians inside India which has no concern with any Pakistani.

Gambhir praises Indian Army and its a matter of debate on PP.Wonder why?Gambhir doesnt have to follow the narrative of Pakistanis.

India launches Satellites sends Spacecraft to Mars.The point of discussion on PP is why not spend the money on building toilets.Bhai did we ask you what you do with your money?

India is not secular or democratic etc etc etc.Bhai did we ask if you are truly Islamic or not?Many posters here on PP say that Pakistan is hardly a true Islamic country.But then its not for Indians to decide what Pakistan is.But Pakistanis want to decide if India is democratic or secular or how Indian muslims support Pakistan etc etc.

Why should Indians behave in a way Pakistanis want them to?Whether we are in denial or avoid self criticism is our problem.

This is like how it was in 2014 regarding Modi.

Here we have pakistani posters telling

India isnt the worlds.largest democracy.Well Pakistani narrative on India hardly the deciding factor on India to anyone in the world.

Modi is butcher genocider etc etc.Well didnt matter to anyone once he was cleared by the courts.Pakistanis not believing in Indian courts is again of little significance.


Indians wont act according to how Pakiatanis want them to.You have your own ideas we have our own.You are free to build your nation according to your own.We will build according to our own.No need to tell Indians how they should build their nation.

 

[ExpressPacer]

True.

This chorr do, chalta hai, rehne de , "ho jayega", "hona hi thaa " attitude is the reason why a country of 40-50 languages, 29 states and numerous races, all derived from 500+ small kingdoms and myriad cultures manage to stick together for 70 years.

If you think that all Indians would've been much more self critical of their country since the beginning , we'd be 10-15 countries already.

The success of Pakistan was that they basically had one very strong adhesive (apart from nationalism) that was used to hold you all together - Islam. You also only had 5 big provinces and maybe 10 (not sure) or so languages to deal with too, and you did it by basically imposing a completely foreign language aka Urdu on the whole nation. Why did that work ? Again , it was because Urdu was linked to your main religion.

If you understand the history of how Pakistan was formed, you'd get clearly what the BJP/RSS is trying to do in India now.

Pakistanis I feel are much more critical of their country, but if you change "criticism of pakistan" to "criticism of Islam" to the same group of people, you'll get far more of the hyper-defensive statements from the same set of people.

That is beacuse , from a country which in 1947 was held together by "Pakistaniyat" (which is guess is your expression for nationalism), you have morphed into a country that is held together by Islam.

India is still held together by the "Idea of India", and the idea is strengthened by real/perceived threats to that Idea by external factors like (Pakistan, China, imperialism in the past etc) . The BJP is basically trying to transform this country into being held together by religion (aka Vedic Hinduism, and all associated cultural entities like Sanskrit/Hindi, hindu culture and so on), which will act as a much stronger glue than a country held together by nationalism.

Top post. I love how you haven't given in to the normal opinion on this thread but have also made your point clear without any aggressive insults or spurrs. I may not agree with you ideology but this thread was never for that, OP wanted to know why Indians are self critical and you've answered it beautifully.

 

[shaz619]

Other than what [MENTION=133135]kaayal[/MENTION] said.Criticism takes place when on the right topics and on the right place so that some remedy may happen.Its slow but its getting better.

Now coming to this thread.Its often seen on PP that Pakistanis are outraged by some acts of Indians inside India which has no concern with any Pakistani.

Gambhir praises Indian Army and its a matter of debate on PP.Wonder why?Gambhir doesnt have to follow the narrative of Pakistanis.

India launches Satellites sends Spacecraft to Mars.The point of discussion on PP is why not spend the money on building toilets.Bhai did we ask you what you do with your money?

India is not secular or democratic etc etc etc.Bhai did we ask if you are truly Islamic or not?Many posters here on PP say that Pakistan is hardly a true Islamic country.But then its not for Indians to decide what Pakistan is.But Pakistanis want to decide if India is democratic or secular or how Indian muslims support Pakistan etc etc.

Why should Indians behave in a way Pakistanis want them to?Whether we are in denial or avoid self criticism is our problem.

This is like how it was in 2014 regarding Modi.

Here we have pakistani posters telling

India isnt the worlds.largest democracy.Well Pakistani narrative on India hardly the deciding factor on India to anyone in the world.

Modi is butcher genocider etc etc.Well didnt matter to anyone once he was cleared by the courts.Pakistanis not believing in Indian courts is again of little significance.


Indians wont act according to how Pakiatanis want them to.You have your own ideas we have our own.You are free to build your nation according to your own.We will build according to our own.No need to tell Indians how they should build their nation.

So basically Pakistani's are not allowed to criticise Indians and Indians can not criticise Pakistani's ? is that your position even when one affects the other on a number of issues at times

 

[cricketjoshila]

High Per capita GDP does not mean poverty is low. This is a big misunderstanding and quite common. In some cases it's a damning indication of income inequality and it shows in India's stats if ou look at them. For such a massive population, their per capita GDP is higher than Pakistan but not by a massive amount. There is a significantly larger percentage of people who are homeless and sleep on the streets in India.
I know this is an older artIcle but I don't thInk much would have changed in the last six years:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...els-higher-than-Pakistans-says-UN-report.html

Now see if you compare the list of richest people in India and Pakistan you will notice India has much more billionaires than Pakistan. So what does this mean?

Income seems to be concentrated with a select few. What the Americans refer to as the top 1%. By the way it's a big problem everywhere including US but it's more pronounced in India and Indians can't just cite their GDP and bury their heads in the sand. Extreme poverty, substandard living conditions and homelessness are rampant there and it's a big problem. Pakistan has its own challenges but it's not so bad there as India in terms of homelessness and poverty.

Can you tell me when was the last time Pakistan published a census data on homeless poverty etc?

What is your idea of being rampant?What is the world bank estimates of poverty in pakistan and India?

How come Pakistan has a lower HDI than India?

What is the literacy rates in Pakistan?

What is the percentage of unemployed?

 

[Stewie]

Can you tell me when was the last time Pakistan published a census data on homeless poverty etc?

What is your idea of being rampant?What is the world bank estimates of poverty in pakistan and India?

How come Pakistan has a lower HDI than India?

What is the literacy rates in Pakistan?

What is the percentage of unemployed?

1. I only addressed the per capital GDP vs poverty situation so I don't know why you are bringing the other aspects into the discussion, if you wish to discuss them, feel free to open a different thread

2. Will you believe a Pakistani report or a UN report which i cited in my last post? To you, which will be more creditable? To get your answers, I suggest you read up on it.

 

[ShadabFakhar]

Other than what [MENTION=133135]kaayal[/MENTION] said.Criticism takes place when on the right topics and on the right place so that some remedy may happen.Its slow but its getting better.

Now coming to this thread.Its often seen on PP that Pakistanis are outraged by some acts of Indians inside India which has no concern with any Pakistani.

Gambhir praises Indian Army and its a matter of debate on PP.Wonder why?Gambhir doesnt have to follow the narrative of Pakistanis.

India launches Satellites sends Spacecraft to Mars.The point of discussion on PP is why not spend the money on building toilets.Bhai did we ask you what you do with your money?

India is not secular or democratic etc etc etc.Bhai did we ask if you are truly Islamic or not?Many posters here on PP say that Pakistan is hardly a true Islamic country.But then its not for Indians to decide what Pakistan is.But Pakistanis want to decide if India is democratic or secular or how Indian muslims support Pakistan etc etc.

Why should Indians behave in a way Pakistanis want them to?Whether we are in denial or avoid self criticism is our problem.

This is like how it was in 2014 regarding Modi.

Here we have pakistani posters telling

India isnt the worlds.largest democracy.Well Pakistani narrative on India hardly the deciding factor on India to anyone in the world.

Modi is butcher genocider etc etc.Well didnt matter to anyone once he was cleared by the courts.Pakistanis not believing in Indian courts is again of little significance.


Indians wont act according to how Pakiatanis want them to.You have your own ideas we have our own.You are free to build your nation according to your own.We will build according to our own.No need to tell Indians how they should build their nation.

It is posters of your ilk that say Indian is founded on "Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam". If that is the case, be prepared for criticism from the rest of your family.

 

[cricketjoshila]

1. I only addressed the per capital GDP vs poverty situation so I don't know why you are bringing the other aspects into the discussion, if you wish to discuss them, feel free to open a different thread

2. Will you believe a Pakistani report or a UN report which i cited in my last post? To you, which will be more creditable? To get your answers, I suggest you read up on it.

1.You said Poverty is rampant in India not in Pakistan.So asked a few questions.

2.Afaik Pakistan hasnt published a census data since 1998.The any reports are based on projections of that data.Has any agency gone and collected data in Waziristan Swat or parts of Balochistan in last 20 years?

 

[cricketjoshila]

It is posters of your ilk that say Indian is founded on "Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam". If that is the case, be prepared for criticism from the rest of your family.

Which ilk?Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam describes the diversity of India.People if various religion languages culture etc live in India.That is Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam.

It doesnot mean that Pakistanis can tell how Indians should be and that Indians should abide by that else be criticised.

 

[Stewie]

1.You said Poverty is rampant in India not in Pakistan.So asked a few questions.

2.Afaik Pakistan hasnt published a census data since 1998.The any reports are based on projections of that data.Has any agency gone and collected data in Waziristan Swat or parts of Balochistan in last 20 years?

Whether we have published data or not is inconsequential because you will refute it anyway. Are you refuting the report from a neutral source I cited?

 

[Stewie]

https://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=69

 

[Napa]

Im sorry. I didn't get my point across as clearly. Since you're the only reasonable person to have responded without any vague statements, I'll agree with the fact that as far as statistics go, it seems as though India may end up being the super power in some decades from now. But that's about it. Whether or not I trust these statistics to be true or to be proven true down the line is another thing.

I don't think most Indians have any illusions about becoming a superpower. The most important aspect of being a superpower, in my opinion, is having superior technology to is competitors. Only the USA can claim to be a genuine superpower, and maybe Russia still is (is the Pak FA T-50 going to work?). Chinese technology is mostly untried, and seems to lag behind not only the US but also Japan and South Korea. Indian technology is fair in the private sector (pharma and software especially) but generally poor in the public sector. The notable exception in the public sector is ISRO. The collaboration of the space agency with private manufacturing firms like L&T also produces some nice technology.

Defense industries financed by governments are a major source of technology. The $400+ billion F-35 program certainly has certainly financed a lot of technological improvements. I think Modi realizes that India lags behind in technology and is therefore trying to get the private sector into defense production rather than spending $100+ billion on foreign arms purchases like the previous Congress government was happy with.

Anyway, a permanent seat in the UN council should not be dependent on being a superpower, but rather a moral authority. Britain and France are certainly not superpowers, nor can Britain be considered a moral authority after Blair's shenanigans prior to the Iraq war. Whether people agree or not, India is a democracy Kashmir notwithstanding. Asia and its neighboring regions have many countries such as India, Pakistan, Russia, Philippines, Saudi Arabia etc. which have minority regions that want to separate and are defeated by force. Nothing special about Kashmir other than that it has a source of weapons which keeps the killing both ways going. Nor is Kashmir the only part of India that wanted to separate violently, Punjab went through its insurgency, the Northeast continues etc.

The value of criticism should not be overestimated. To a point criticism is fine. Beyond that all it means is that people have lost hope in the system and criticism is just demoralizing rather than being productive.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Whether we have published data or not is inconsequential because you will refute it anyway. Are you refuting the report from a neutral source I cited?

I am asking you has Pakistan published a census since 1998?Has anyone done any data collection in Balochistan Swat Waziristan FATA?Are these data based on projection of 1998 census

 

[Stewie]

I am asking you has Pakistan published a census since 1998?Has anyone done any data collection in Balochistan Swat Waziristan FATA?Are these data based on projection of 1998 census

It's like pouring water on a duck. READ THE REPORT.

The census data has a gap of 4 years, India's is from 2010 and Pakistan' s from 2006.

Pakistan is conducting a census at the moment.

And even if Baluchistan and other remote areas are not covered, I don't imagine the numbers will be off by that much. An overwhelming majority of population in Pakistan is concentrated in Punjab, Singh and major KPK areas, tribal areas and Baluchistan san major cities like Quetta are very sparsely populated.

 

[ghalib]

See the link this webpage(https://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=69) sites as source:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2046.html

India - 21.9%
Pakistan - 29.5%

 

[Napa]

https://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=69

Just another example of fake or meaningless data that people latch on to if it appears to present India in a bad light.

Simply fake here. The chart says India poverty rate is 29.8%. If you look for the source, it says "CIA World Factbook". If you go to the source it says 21.9% not 29.8%!



In fact if you click on the blue India icon of this fake data chart, you are told, no it is not 29.8%, it is actually 21.9%.



Another misleading/fake idea that Indian critics love is that "India has more poverty than sub saharan Africa". Given that the 3 most populous sub-Saharan African countries, Nigeria, Ethiopia and Congo have poverty rates of 70%, 29.6% and 63% compared to India's 21.9% (all data from CIA), this is hard to give any credence to.

Also according to the Brookings Institute, the rate of extreme poverty in India should reduce to about 3% by 2030, while remaining at around 30% for sub-Saharan Africa. Sure, keep saying India is worse than sub-Saharan Africa if being deluded is the way to happiness.



https://www.brookings.edu/interacti...eme-poverty-by-2030-interactive/#three_giants

 

[ghalib]

Coming to OP, I thought we are a quite mild and laid back nation. Terms like Hindu rate of economic growth (2%), Indian Stretchable Time etc. are used by Indians about ourselves. Not sure about the online world, but, political discussions in the drawing rooms/living rooms of most Indians is about the myriad problems the country is facing. This is not different from any part of the world I suppose. Multiple posters on PP complain about Indians claiming super-power status. Trust me, this notion is furthest from the mind of a common Indian. Maybe some do this for scoring points over our dear neighbors.

Having said that, a subject can not be the observer, so, one can not completely dismiss this impression that you guys seem to carry. An explanation could be that we are taught early in our childhood that nation is supreme. There is this belief among most Indians that giving one's life for nation is the highest form of sacrifice and takes one to heaven. Similar to the notion in Islam, I think, about dying for religion. Some of us could be blinded by our patriotism to not recognize our shortcomings. But many of us do this because of our political inclinations (and they are derided as Bhakts in India).

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Seriously why would we air our dirty laundry in front of Pakistani's in this forum?

Because the patriotic Pakistanis don't have a problem washing dirty linen in front of Indians in this forum is a simple answer. What do you think about that then hmmm?


Don't be shy now, let's hear what you really think about the self-critical Pakistanis that are always vocal on any Pakistan forums.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Because the patriotic Pakistanis don't have a problem washing dirty linen in front of Indians in this forum is a simple answer. What do you think about that then hmmm?


Don't be shy now, let's hear what you really think about the self-critical Pakistanis that are always vocal on any Pakistan forums.

Why should Indians behave the same way as Pakistanis?

No logic.

 

[Napa]

Why should Indians behave the same way as Pakistanis?

No logic.

Also, I think generally while recognizing that poverty is still high, most Indians feel that the country is progressing. 7%+ growth rates, the Army in the barracks, and some corrupt politicians ending up in jail are reasons for optimism.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Why should Indians behave the same way as Pakistanis?

No logic.

It's the same logic as Indians using Pakistan as a yardstick to measure success like your most reasonable compatriot Napa has done in the post above.

 

[Napa]

It's the same logic as Indians using Pakistan as a yardstick to measure success like your most reasonable compatriot Napa has done in the post above.

Where?

If you are referring to "Army in the barracks", maintaining power using the Army is quite common in the neighborhood and doesn't refer specifically to Pakistan. In the last 10 years, the government of these countries also have used guns rather than elections to stay in power: about a dozen Arab countries, China, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Vietnam etc.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Anyone who dare to criticise IPL or call spade a spade will be called a traitor or most probably a Pakistani by some of my so called educated fellow indian members here.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Why should Indians behave the same way as Pakistanis?

No logic.

So do you agree with OP then?

 

[Enigma_]

Anyone who dare to criticise IPL or call spade a spade will be called a traitor or most probably a Pakistani by some of my so called educated fellow indian members here.

The principle sponsors of IPL are all Chinese companies lol

 

[sshakir411]

It is one of the most unique aspects of Indians compared to other nationalities. There seems to be very little diversity in opinion across India. If you are not an Indian and you criticize their country, their usual first response is to say that your country has problems x, y, z and thus you should not be criticizing India. But those same Indians would be talking crap about other countries wholeheartedly in other places. Diversion is usually the first form of defense. Some of them usually have pre-meditated responses for certain criticisms of their country.

This is not just with Pakistanis. They do this with anyone who criticizes their country. Check out BBC articles - every time you see one that remotely shows India in a negative way, they get really defensive and start criticizing BBC.

You really don't see this with any other nationality. People are generally open to criticism of their own country and often criticize their country themselves. This includes developed countries like US, Canada, Australia, UK, Scandinavian countries, etc. If other people criticize those countries, the citizens are generally open to the criticism as long as it is valid and constructive.

Another thing - Indians frequently use how much their country is liked or other countries are disliked by western nations to gauge themselves, which is not something I've seen other people do.

Ahsan hit the nail on the head. There's very little diversity of opinion across India..and this is true with the very educated Indians as well. I read a lot of news form every decent news source around the world..and it's startling to see how often the same opinion/point of view is washed and rewashed in India...I've also noticed heavy plagiarism by some Indian journalists. If you read some of the threads where Indian posters have actually chimed in on a discussion you'll notice there's only a handful who formulate their own opinion rather than repeating what they heard/read from somewhere.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Also, I think generally while recognizing that poverty is still high, most Indians feel that the country is progressing. 7%+ growth rates, the Army in the barracks, and some corrupt politicians ending up in jail are reasons for optimism.

Good points raised. Perhaps Pakistanis are too self-critical then. We have seen the army in their barracks for some time now with the longest spell of democracy for decades. The Prime Minister is being held to account by a supreme court acting with the highest integrity. Malala Yousufzai was sent to Britain with the blessings of the govt to continue to raise awareness of female education in Pakistan, and the military has allied successfully with it's worldwide partners to eliminate terrorist havens in FATA areas.

As one of our most esteemed members would always say, it's easy to look at the negatives but the truth is surely....it's getting better.