Why are there no non-Muslim cricketers active in Pakistan?

[Charmander]

Angelo is half Tamil and half Burgher (similar to Anglo Indians) and he is married to a Sinhalese lady. He knows very little Tamil and grew up speaking sinhalese for the same reason many 2nd and 3rd generation desis can't speak their mother tongue in the west and grow up speaking English. Russel himself is not a fluent Tamil speaker because like Mathews, he grew up in Colombo, which is not a Tamil majority region.

As for Dilshan, his original name was Tuwan Mohammed Dilshan. He converted to Buddhism and changed his name to Tilakaratne Dilshan soon after his debut. It's well documented. I know his mum was Buddhist but he grew up as a muslim but converted around 1999. And no, Sanath isn't Tamil.

Dilshan's birth name was Tuwan Mohammed but he never practiced Islam. He grew up buddhist, especially since he lived with his mother after the parents divorce. His "converstion" you speak of was a legal name change, nothing more. It is dangerous to insinuate a muslim has converted to a non-islamic religion when that is not the case.

Maybe im wrong about Sanath. But he does speak Tamil, so i wasn't sure.

 

[Rajdeep]

That is because minorities are not well treated in Pakistan. It is well evident and documented. Not only in cricket but I dont think there are many minorities in any public service or civil services in Pakistan.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Lal Kumar was the last Hindu I saw in Pak domestic. There should be more definitely.

Grass Root cricket is not usually being played by the educated people. Harsh treatment for minorities would definitely be an issue there. From what I have seen around the capital, there are a lot more Christians than Hindus or Sikhs or people of other religions. I do believe there is a lot of talent in Christian community who probably aren't getting enough chances.

Another thing. To say we treat our minorities very well would be laughable. Everyone knows minorities are treated harshly in Pakistan.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

That is because minorities are not well treated in Pakistan. It is well evident and documented. Not only in cricket but I dont think there are many minorities in any public service or civil services in Pakistan.

Not really. I have seen quite a few people who are not Muslims on very high posts in the capital.
Possibly the most famous pediatrician of Islamabad is a Hindu doctor.
There are a few christians and hindus working on high posts in various ministries.

The non muslim community that is well off is usually very well educated here. On the other hand, there are slums and some local sectors(just like average Pakistani community) mainly composed of christians as well. So it exists at all levels.

 

[ElRaja]

minority involvement in cricket has reached all time lows, i remember even guys like rajesh ramesh and stephen john in pakistani domestics, but now from under 16 to senior levels there is this uniformity which makes it obvious that the grass root environment isn't welcoming to minority players.

i know its unrelated but if anyone wants a minority persons view on pakistan for minorities, id recomend shallum xaviers interview on youtube, easy enough to search. in a nutshell it paints a bleak picture, with the 80s and 90s remembered as halcyon days compared to today.

 

[Poseidon]

Balochistan U19 squad arranged Diwali celebrations for their star Kabir Raj.

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[Buffet]

Is it really surprising?

I know many posters may find it offensive, but think about it for a second. If you make a country especially for whites then what is the chance that non-whites will be treated fairly in the new country. Discrimination exists everywhere, but it is almost guaranteed to happen if you make a country specially for certain religion, race etc.

A country made for Muslims is always likely to encourage or discourage non-muslims in a certain direction.

For example,

-------------

Sewer Cleaners Wanted in Pakistan: Only Christians Need Apply


But when the Indian subcontinent broke up in 1947 and Pakistan was formed as a homeland for the region’s Muslims, a new, informal system of discrimination formed. In Pakistan, Muslims sit at the top of the hierarchy. And as one of Pakistan’s small Christian minority, Mr. Eric has now been forced into the same work his Hindu ancestors had tried to avoid through religious conversion.



Some areas of Karachi are plagued with sewage and trash. In the sewers, cleaners use their bare hands to unclog drainpipes of feces, plastic bags and hospital refuse.Credit...Mustafa Hussain for The New York Times


Although India has outlawed caste-based discrimination with mixed success, in Pakistan it is almost encouraged by the state. In July, the Pakistani military placed newspaper advertisements for sewer sweepers with the caveat that only Christians should apply.

..
Mr. Eric sends his son to school far from the crowded and segregated neighborhood the city’s sewer cleaners live in, hoping to free him of the discrimination that forced him into this work. Back home, the neighborhood lacks safe drinking water and schools. Swarms of mosquitoes, piles of garbage and overflowing gutters are the area’s only abundance.

While most sweepers like Mr. Eric are illiterate, his generation has been more determined to push their children to attend school to break the cycle of discrimination, just as their ancestors tried to do when they converted. But the children still find themselves discriminated against, forced to adopt the profession of their fathers.

While Christians make up only 1.6 percent of Pakistan’s population of some 200 million, according to a 1998 government census, rights groups believe they fill about 80 percent of the sweeper jobs. Lower-caste Hindus mostly fill the rest of the slots.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/04/world/asia/pakistan-christians-sweepers.html

-----------------

Some minorities will make it to the top, but due to institutional bias, they would have to be far better than others in all rounds to make the cut for the top. Pakistan is just an example, but it will be true for any similar cases.

Imagine if India changed its constitution and make a rule that only Hindus can hold the top post-in-country. Or Aus makes a rule that only whites will be allowed to hold the top post in the country. Simply that institutional bias will filter down. In fact, you can make such rules with the presence of institutional bias to begin with.

In short, it shouldn't be surprising to not see minorities playing at a first-class level in Pakistan. It is a natural outcome. Majority of posters in PP are wonderful person and thoughtful as well. My comments are no way reflection of them. Most of them genuinely want to see everyone getting equal opportunity to play cricket, but it is a losing battle. Problem is much bigger.

 

[Pakpak]

I think you may be right. When even the shia population doesn't get representation. It's a telling sign that life in pakistan is different for any pakistani that is not sunni.

Yes it is so difficult that the Bhuttos and Zardari, Shias, ruled Pakistan for two decades and continue to rule their province since 70.

In Pakistan anyone who does not have money or contacts struggles.

 

[Thanos]

You wont be seeing any in future.

Pakistani society treats them badly. There are alot of social problems that our minority faces.

For example, people dont drink or eat from same things that are uses by hindus and christian. People even throw away food if given by shias claiming that they put their saliva in it..

In pakistani club level, you have to interact with players in club. You sit and eat together. During a match you share a single water bottle. Its a poor mans sport in pakistan, lower class plays this game mostly. You wont see upper class and a very limited middle clas might play.

And these racist ides exist alot in lower class aswell as they live in mohallas so hate is easily spread there.

Saliva point is something I would like to know more about, if you can tell us.
I've seen many secretly recorded videos on twitter where muslims spitting in food before serving or cooking. Like spitting in roti, bakery items before putting them into oven.
And they are surely spitting intentionally because I've seen almost 10-20 videos recently. Some arrests have also been made by authorities in this matter.

In India, non-Muslims don't go into details to find out if someone is Shia or Sunni.
But all these spitting in food videos creating bad image of all muslims and some people have started avoiding muslim shops for eatables.
Is this really a practice followed by Shias only or applicable for Sunnis as well?

 

[Major]

A player by the name of kabir raj of quetta might get selected for quetta gladiators. I think he belongs from hindu background. Good news if true.

He might come as a replacement for hasnain if reports confirm he chucks.

 

[Babeikh]

A player by the name of kabir raj of quetta might get selected for quetta gladiators. I think he belongs from hindu background. Good news if true.

He might come as a replacement for hasnain if reports confirm he chucks.

Kabir Raj is indeed a Hindu. There was a video of his Balochistan U19 team mates celebrating Diwali with him.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Great news! Thats exactly what the PSL should be about - catapulting young talent into the limelight.

Quetta's bowling attack resembled a pensioners club. Best of luck to young Kabir I hope he makes it!

 

[Rajdeep]

Think the time has come that this question is asked. India, which is considered as a hell hole for minorities as per few here, always have muslim representation in the national side. Heck, India's ex captain M.Azharuddin was a muslim. Similarly, Bangladesh which is formed 24 years after Pakistan, have Hindu players playing for them like Liton Das and Sowmya Sarkar.

However Pakistan hardly picks any non-muslim player in the side. And pls dont tell me in such a populated country, there are no good cricketers from minority faith.

So the question is - why Pakistan don't give chance to any non-muslim cricketer? Is it bcoz as a society it is intolerant towards its religious minorities? Or there are actually no cricketer from Hindu, Christian or Sikh community good enough to represent Pakistan, which is honestly tough to believe? Lets discuss.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

It seems like you have already made up your mind anyway

 

[Rajdeep]

It seems like you have already made up your mind anyway

It seems like you are becoming defensive. I asked an honest question and genuinely want to know the reason.

I understand that Pakistan constitution says no non-muslim can become PM or hold any public life but does that apply to sports too? Does players get discriminated based on their religious faith? In India, Muslim players like Irfan Pathan looked up to Wasim Akram and considered him as his idol. Pathan proudly represented Indian team and now a prominent figure in commentary box. Similarly I am sure there are many Pakistani Hindus consider Sachin Tendulkar or Virat Kohli as their idol. Why PCB never give them a chance? Why is it that no hindu, sikh, christian or sindhi player come across the rank and represent Pakistan cricket team?

I think it is a fair question and I am seeking an answer to dilemma.

 

[BouncerGuy]

I don't think that there is any capable player atm in the domestic circuit who is good enough to make it into the team. Never heard of any name in recent times since Yousaf Youhana who later on reverted to Islam in the last stages of his cricketing career.

 

[offstump]

Pakistan is close to 97% Muslim, it will be rare for a non Muslim, that too one who is good enough to play at the highest level of cricket in the world, to crack the national team lineup. It’s not discrimination, it’s just math.

 

[rpant_gabba]

It seems like you have already made up your mind anyway

how cute. playing the victim

 

[rpant_gabba]

Kabir Raj is indeed a Hindu. There was a video of his Balochistan U19 team mates celebrating Diwali with him.

don't worry, if he ever makes it to the national team, the conversion culture will take over, just like it did with yusuf youhana.

 

[boomboomcheema]

Why are there no Dalit Captains in Indian Cricket team ? Despite Dalits making up such huge percentage of Indian population ? Is there representation proportionate to their overall population ? Why Indian Cricket is dominated by a few Upper Caste players ?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

how cute. playing the victim

Victim of what?

 

[Seam Specialist]

don't worry, if he ever makes it to the national team, the conversion culture will take over, just like it did with yusuf youhana.

So why didn't Danish Kaneria convert, he was playing at same time as Yusuf? Unfortunately, Kaneria turned out to be a scum fixer. He lied for over 10 years and saying he was innocent and then finally admitted to it. He is one of the most dishonest players to have played for Pakistan.

It seems a certain section of Pakistan's neighbours want to paint pictures of how Pakistan treats minorities through cricket to show how their countries situation for minorities is so much better. Yet cricket is not a good example to show this.

For example, I'm Australian and 7% of all Australia is south asian, you go from grass roots cricket to the top level of cricket and you will see teams filled with south asians and yet the national team and even the state teams barley have any south asians. Why is this? Is it culture, discrimination or a bit of both? Are south asians just naturally inferior to white Australians? In reality, it's hard to pit point one particular reason for this, it could be the old guard of coaches and selectors not pushing for south asians thinking it would be bad marketing for the game to the wider Australian audience.

So a country like Australia, which has astronomically better human rights for minorities than Pakistan and its 'Neighbour' is not pushing south asian talent to the national or even state teams even though they are 7% of the Australian public. Even Pakistan has more minority representation than Australia has of south asians in the national team.

This thread is a dog whistle, unless you can show a specific player or incident where a deserving minority player has not been pick for state or even national teams. The answer is very clear for this thread, the current players that are minorities in Pakistan, are just not good enough.

 

[rpant_gabba]

So why didn't Danish Kaneria convert, he was playing at same time as Yusuf? Unfortunately, Kaneria turned out to be a scum fixer. He lied for over 10 years and saying he was innocent and then finally admitted to it. He is one of the most dishonest players to have played for Pakistan.

It seems a certain section of Pakistan's neighbours want to paint pictures of how Pakistan treats minorities through cricket to show how their countries situation for minorities is so much better. Yet cricket is not a good example to show this.

For example, I'm Australian and 7% of all Australia is south asian, you go from grass roots cricket to the top level of cricket and you will see teams filled with south asians and yet the national team and even the state teams barley have any south asians. Why is this? Is it culture, discrimination or a bit of both? Are south asians just naturally inferior to white Australians? In reality, it's hard to pit point one particular reason for this, it could be the old guard of coaches and selectors not pushing for south asians thinking it would be bad marketing for the game to the wider Australian audience.

So a country like Australia, which has astronomically better human rights for minorities than Pakistan and its 'Neighbour' is not pushing south asian talent to the national or even state teams even though they are 7% of the Australian public. Even Pakistan has more minority representation than Australia has of south asians in the national team.

This thread is a dog whistle, unless you can show a specific player or incident where a deserving minority player has not been pick for state or even national teams. The answer is very clear for this thread, the current players that are minorities in Pakistan, are just not good enough.

the suffocating maulana islamic conversion culture within pak national team is well documented and so is their attempt to convert other nations players

Yes, most South asians in Aus propably don't have what it to make it into the tough aus team

 

[Rajdeep]

Pakistan is close to 97% Muslim, it will be rare for a non Muslim, that too one who is good enough to play at the highest level of cricket in the world, to crack the national team lineup. It’s not discrimination, it’s just math.

With respect, I refuse to believe that there is no discrimination. Bangladesh is also a muslim majority country and their cricket structure is much weaker. Yet they have 2 present hindu cricketer and had Tapas Vaidya, Alok Kapali etc. in the past. I refuse to believe there are no good non-muslim cricketer in Pakistan. They are simply not allowed to play for the nation due to their religious faith.

 

[FearlessRoar]

I really want to see more Christian and Hindu cricketers in the Pakistan cricket team. In fact, we should have quotas for them in the cricket team.

 

[guard]

It seems like you are becoming defensive. I asked an honest question and genuinely want to know the reason.

I understand that Pakistan constitution says no non-muslim can become PM or hold any public life but does that apply to sports too? Does players get discriminated based on their religious faith? In India, Muslim players like Irfan Pathan looked up to Wasim Akram and considered him as his idol. Pathan proudly represented Indian team and now a prominent figure in commentary box. Similarly I am sure there are many Pakistani Hindus consider Sachin Tendulkar or Virat Kohli as their idol. Why PCB never give them a chance? Why is it that no hindu, sikh, christian or sindhi player come across the rank and represent Pakistan cricket team?

I think it is a fair question and I am seeking an answer to dilemma.

Irfan fake pathan is a pathological Pakistan hater, Wasim Akram doesn't need his Fanboyism

 

[ElRaja]

I really want to see more Christian and Hindu cricketers in the Pakistan cricket team. In fact, we should have quotas for them in the cricket team.

quotas are wrong, you need to understand why there are none at domestic level. im guessing those who were families which had resources to pursue cricket most likely left. parsis used to be the most well off of the minority communities in Pakistan, i know nearly all parsis have pretty much left Pakistan now, might be the same with more affluent Christians and hindu families.

 

[Stewie]

Cricket is a very difficult line of profession. Most people are shying away from it because of the politics involved. The minorities are very well represented in the performing arts profession. Also, I have noticed that most minorities are now finding it easier to use the religion card to get out of Pakistan and get immigration to UK and Canada to escape the tough economic conditions affecting Muslims and non Muslims alike.

 

[Stewie]

quotas are wrong, you need to understand why there are none at domestic level. im guessing those who were families which had resources to pursue cricket most likely left. parsis used to be the most well off of the minority communities in Pakistan, i know nearly all parsis have pretty much left Pakistan now, might be the same with more affluent Christians and hindu families.

If you have the money or connections to leave Pakistan, you leave. It’s not limited to minorities but a lot of Pakistanis in general have and are leaving. That’s what happens when you don’t have proper democracy and rule of law and the future is so dependent on the whims and fancies of a few.

 

[Champ_Pal]

How many non-muslim players played for pakistan in the past 25 years? I can think of Kaneria.

Not sure of Yousuf Yohanna counts.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

A player should be selected based on abilities.

There should be no quota system.

Good idea, I second it. May be at the moment, we don't have any impact player from this category yet.

 

[ElRaja]

If you have the money or connections to leave Pakistan, you leave. It’s not limited to minorities but a lot of Pakistanis in general have and are leaving. That’s what happens when you don’t have proper democracy and rule of law and the future is so dependent on the whims and fancies of a few.

yes, but going into the nuance of the matter mass flight from pak has only been a post covid phenomenon, prior to that rich pakistanis were fairly happy staying in Pakistan, whereas rich and middle class minorities have been fleeing Pakistan en mass since the post 9/11 radicalisation of the country. the religious extremism has normalised somewhat from the mid 2010s but now the economy is battered so the exodus continues.

 

[RexRex]

It's called the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and they seem to be proud of it; why would hindus and christians be represented in the national team of an islamic state ?

 

[Mockingbird]

Good idea, I second it. May be at the moment, we don't have any impact player from this category yet.

Are you sure that non-Muslim cricketers are being scouted and given opportunities at the grassroots? If they are not even identified to begin with, how will any impact player emerge from the non-Muslims?

 

[offstump]

With respect, I refuse to believe that there is no discrimination. Bangladesh is also a muslim majority country and their cricket structure is much weaker. Yet they have 2 present hindu cricketer and had Tapas Vaidya, Alok Kapali etc. in the past. I refuse to believe there are no good non-muslim cricketer in Pakistan. They are simply not allowed to play for the nation due to their religious faith.

Maybe maybe not, you can refuse to believe it but I don’t see any proof to backup the claim that minorities are being discriminated against and not allowed to play for the nation. That is a wild accusation.

 

[BouncerGuy]

It's called the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and they seem to be proud of it; why would hindus and christians be represented in the national team of an islamic state ?

Islam is a religion of peace and justice.

Can you name 1 player from the domestic system in Pakistan who raised his voice about being treated unfairly for real? So we can speak for him together. The reality is there is no non-muslim player atm in domestic, who is making runs or taking wickets to make his way into the team.

 

[Rajdeep]

Maybe maybe not, you can refuse to believe it but I don’t see any proof to backup the claim that minorities are being discriminated against and not allowed to play for the nation. That is a wild accusation.

The fact that there has only been a handful of minority players represented Pakistan in their cricket history itself shows discrimination. What more proof you want? If you want to get more into specifics, listen to the accusation of Danish Kaneria and what used to happen to him in the dressing room, which even Sohaib Akhtar agreed.

Pakistan is a country of 245 million people. Agreed the minority population which used to be 24% during partition stands around 2.14% now, is stll significant enough in the grand scheme of things.

Do you have any proof that they does not get discriminated and don't get a chance only bcoz they aren't "good enough"?

 

[Rajdeep]

No non muslim player is good enough in the domestic is one of the lamest excuse I have heard. As if present PCT is filled with Bradman's of the world. LOL.

There are many Hindus & Christian players in teams like UAE & Saudi Arab. As mentioned before, Bangladesh also has fair share of hindu cricketers given their short cricket history. But but a team like Pakistan who is playing cricket since 1950s, could hardly find any non-muslim cricketer bcoz aparenly all of them can't score runs or take wickets. Hilarious

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It's called the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and they seem to be proud of it; why would hindus and christians be represented in the national team of an islamic state ?

Because you don't need to be Islamic to play a sport well.

 

[Hextro]

While I do not doubt that there is malicious intent behind this thread, I'll entertain it.

Christians who have played for Pakistan: 5

1. Duncan Sharpe
2. Wallis Mathias
3. Billy Ibadulla
4. Antao DSouza
5. Mohammad Yousuf

I don't like misappropriating people's names, so I chose to use MY's current name to address him.

I do recall there being more, but their names escaped me.

Hindus who have played for Pakistan: 2

1. Anil Dalpat
2. Danish Kaneria

All this, despite there being a greater number of Hindus in Pakistan than Christians.

I'll highlight three reasons for the low Hindu representation. Two of which would address problems that Hindus specifically face. Please note that these reasons will not encompass racial, religious, or color discrimination, as those are well-known factors. Instead, I aim to delve into lesser-discussed aspects that outsiders may be less familiar with.

1.) Their population is relatively small. Hindus constitute only 2.1% of Pakistan's total population, whereas in Bangladesh, they represent 8%, with a significant concentration in urban areas, thus amplifying their societal impact.

While this is the primary reason so few of them are in the National Team, one might still anticipate at least a couple among every hundred players. Therefore, I'll delve into more detailed explanations for their limited representation.

2.) Most Hindus are concentrated in interior Sindh, one of the poorest regions in Pakistan. Representation of Muslims from this area is already limited, let alone representation of a minority. While I sympathize with them, it's crucial to acknowledge that many of them have contributed to their plight by consistently voting for PPP. We must remember the root cause, even if it discomforts those who may be unaware of the ground realities.

Also, there's been a noticeable decline in sports participation from Sindh. Over time, cricket seems to be increasingly dominated by players from Punjab and KP. Perhaps Balochistan will take Sindh's slice of the pie.

After adding provincial discrimination into the mix, we can reduce that two for every hundred players to less than one player for every hundred players.

3.) Many Pakistani Hindus adhere firmly to their local customs and religious beliefs, often abstaining from consuming certain meats. While some may overlook it, even small percentages become significant in a competitive environment with millions. Economically, meat is affordable to a large segment of the Pakistani population, particularly those who rely on it for nutrition amidst an otherwise unhealthy diet. If you take some of that crucial protein out of the equation, it becomes difficult to keep up with the competitors.

In conclusion, the cumulative disadvantage, compounded by the factors I've outlined, serves as the final blow, making it highly improbable for a Hindu player to break into the National Team.

 

[Stewie]

It's called the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and they seem to be proud of it; why would hindus and christians be represented in the national team of an islamic state ?

Because the two are not mutually exclusive. Pakistan does recognize the minorities and their rights and they are even represented on the flag. Pakistani cricket team has had minority players in the past and there are plenty of Hindu and Christian judges and other government officers in Pakistan as well.

A Muslim democratic republic, if governed properly provides more rights to non Muslims than Saudia Arabia and UAE etc where minorities love to live even without equal rights just for the money.
If Pakistan’s economy was better, it would be better place to live for Hindus and Christians than KSA or UAE.

 

[Stewie]

The fact that there has only been a handful of minority players represented Pakistan in their cricket history itself shows discrimination. What more proof you want? If you want to get more into specifics, listen to the accusation of Danish Kaneria and what used to happen to him in the dressing room, which even Sohaib Akhtar agreed.

Pakistan is a country of 245 million people. Agreed the minority population which used to be 24% during partition stands around 2.14% now, is stll significant enough in the grand scheme of things.

Do you have any proof that they does not get discriminated and don't get a chance only bcoz they aren't "good enough"?

Pakistan has had a more dismal in the national team representation from Sindh and Baluchistan areas. If there is discrimination, it’s not due to religion. This is due to a multitude of factors including regional discrimination, lack of proper facilities, game development, etc.

Cricket was dominated by the cities of Lahore and Karachi. Eventually rest of Punjab players started coming in. Post 2000, majority of the stronger players are from KPK and karachi and Lahore representation is not as strong anymore. Most players are from southern punjab and KPK areas and they are not places well known for minorities.

Most minorities in Pakistan prefer owning businesses to make a living. I stated previously cricket is a high risk no reward profession and most Pakistanis, not just minorities actually discourage it as a profession.

 

[Rajdeep]

Though there are certain people who will always defend Pakistan no matter what as if it the beacon of democratic values but 2 hindu cricketer for a team like Pakistan with a cricket history of 70+ years sounds pure discrimination. One can twist it in anyway they want but deep down even they know it is religious bias. Hindus were 20.5 percent in 1947 during partition. What is the reason that it is only 2.1 now? It is hilarious that people are sneakily sliding down this percentage figure as if that justifies this blatant bias.

Also, I keep hearing most hindu's are restricted in one of the poorest Sindh region. Why? What is Pak govt doing to uplift them?

Also, I thought there are significant amount of Sikhs in Pakistan. Imran Khan himself did some drama to open the Kartarpur corridor and inviting Sidhu etc as if to show how secular Pakistan is. Why there are no Sikh cricketers in Pakistan either?

Look one can twits it anyway they want to make themselves feel good but the fact is considering Pakistan is an Islamic republic, it has a mindset of muslims first, muslims second, then dogs and then probably minorities. I mean Pakistan constitution says that only muslims can hold a public figure. Though there is no such rule for sports but this biasness is embedded in everyone's mind. People then try to justify this bias with 'no good enough' players in domestic, lower percentage, eating meat etc etc. Danish Kaneria faced similar discrimination in the dressing room against the hand of Afridi which Sohaib Akhtar himself confirmed. Imagine being the only 2nd hindu cricketer in your country's history and even then get discriminated. And when ball is on the other side and similar discrimination happens to them as in the case with Azeem Rafiq in Yorkshire, the same people justifying here will cry foul. Ahmed Sehzad trying to convert Dilshan in the middle of cricket field is a give away what minority cricketers may go through in domestic circuit.

 

[Red-Indian]

While I do not doubt that there is malicious intent behind this thread, I'll entertain it.

Christians who have played for Pakistan: 5

1. Duncan Sharpe
2. Wallis Mathias
3. Billy Ibadulla
4. Antao DSouza
5. Mohammad Yousuf

I don't like misappropriating people's names, so I chose to use MY's current name to address him.

I do recall there being more, but their names escaped me.

Hindus who have played for Pakistan: 2

1. Anil Dalpat
2. Danish Kaneria

All this, despite there being a greater number of Hindus in Pakistan than Christians.

I'll highlight three reasons for the low Hindu representation. Two of which would address problems that Hindus specifically face. Please note that these reasons will not encompass racial, religious, or color discrimination, as those are well-known factors. Instead, I aim to delve into lesser-discussed aspects that outsiders may be less familiar with.

1.) Their population is relatively small. Hindus constitute only 2.1% of Pakistan's total population, whereas in Bangladesh, they represent 8%, with a significant concentration in urban areas, thus amplifying their societal impact.

While this is the primary reason so few of them are in the National Team, one might still anticipate at least a couple among every hundred players. Therefore, I'll delve into more detailed explanations for their limited representation.

2.) Most Hindus are concentrated in interior Sindh, one of the poorest regions in Pakistan. Representation of Muslims from this area is already limited, let alone representation of a minority. While I sympathize with them, it's crucial to acknowledge that many of them have contributed to their plight by consistently voting for PPP. We must remember the root cause, even if it discomforts those who may be unaware of the ground realities.

Also, there's been a noticeable decline in sports participation from Sindh. Over time, cricket seems to be increasingly dominated by players from Punjab and KP. Perhaps Balochistan will take Sindh's slice of the pie.

After adding provincial discrimination into the mix, we can reduce that two for every hundred players to less than one player for every hundred players.

3.) Many Pakistani Hindus adhere firmly to their local customs and religious beliefs, often abstaining from consuming certain meats. While some may overlook it, even small percentages become significant in a competitive environment with millions. Economically, meat is affordable to a large segment of the Pakistani population, particularly those who rely on it for nutrition amidst an otherwise unhealthy diet. If you take some of that crucial protein out of the equation, it becomes difficult to keep up with the competitors.

In conclusion, the cumulative disadvantage, compounded by the factors I've outlined, serves as the final blow, making it highly improbable for a Hindu player to break into the National Team.

Pakistan has had a more dismal in the national team representation from Sindh and Baluchistan areas. If there is discrimination, it’s not due to religion. This is due to a multitude of factors including regional discrimination, lack of proper facilities, game development, etc.

Cricket was dominated by the cities of Lahore and Karachi. Eventually rest of Punjab players started coming in. Post 2000, majority of the stronger players are from KPK and karachi and Lahore representation is not as strong anymore. Most players are from southern punjab and KPK areas and they are not places well known for minorities.

Most minorities in Pakistan prefer owning businesses to make a living. I stated previously cricket is a high risk no reward profession and most Pakistanis, not just minorities actually discourage it as a profession.

It concerns me when even smart posters deny there's any discrimination.

There is almost always discrimination against minorities in sports.

- Indian Muslim players have to show themselves more patriotic than their Hindu counterparts and face more pointed questioning when they fail

- Muslim players in England ( which is supposed to be more advanced) have documented struggles and racial discrimination they have to face

But here we have thoughtful posters saying they don't believe there's any discrimination against religious minorities in Pakistani sports - a country formed to safeguard the interests of it's majority religion.

If that's what you truly believe, I fear for Pakistan.

 

[offstump]

The fact that there has only been a handful of minority players represented Pakistan in their cricket history itself shows discrimination. What more proof you want? If you want to get more into specifics, listen to the accusation of Danish Kaneria and what used to happen to him in the dressing room, which even Sohaib Akhtar agreed.

Pakistan is a country of 245 million people. Agreed the minority population which used to be 24% during partition stands around 2.14% now, is stll significant enough in the grand scheme of things.

Do you have any proof that they does not get discriminated and don't get a chance only bcoz they aren't "good enough"?

That’s not how it works. You are the one who has made a wild accusation and have stated “They are simply not allowed to play for the nation due to their religious faith.”

I am well aware of Kaneria coming on tv making absurd allegations. Was he prevented from playing for the nation due to his religious faith? The fact that Kaneria played 61 tests for Pakistan tells you everything about discrimination. Apart from coming on tv and making statements to anyone and everyone, did he take the PCB to court for damages? Has the PCB, in its entire history been held liable for discrimination by any credible body? The answer is No.

I ask again, where is the proof to back up your allegation of wrong doing? The burden is on you.

 

[JaDed]

Why are there no Dalit Captains in Indian Cricket team ? Despite Dalits making up such huge percentage of Indian population ? Is there representation proportionate to their overall population ? Why Indian Cricket is dominated by a few Upper Caste players ?

There is definitely discrimination against Dalits, but there have been various non uppercaste players ,all Yadavs are not upper caste..even various Kumars aren’t uppercaste(Bhuvi etc), Also India does have various non Hindu players making up our sports representation not only cricket but boxing, Tennis etc

 

[Rajdeep]

That’s not how it works. You are the one who has made a wild accusation and have stated “They are simply not allowed to play for the nation due to their religious faith.”

I am well aware of Kaneria coming on tv making absurd allegations. Was he prevented from playing for the nation due to his religious faith? The fact that Kaneria played 61 tests for Pakistan tells you everything about discrimination. Apart from coming on tv and making statements to anyone and everyone, did he take the PCB to court for damages? Has the PCB, in its entire history been held liable for discrimination by any credible body? The answer is No.

I ask again, where is the proof to back up your allegation of wrong doing? The burden is on you.

What is this 'Burden of proof' you are looking for?

There has only been 2 hindu and handful of Christian cricketers in the history of Pakistan cricket which is 70 odd years. It is a fact...so not sure what proof you are looking for. And when it combines with Kaneria's accusation which is authenticated by Akhtar, one can't help but think about discrimination.

However, if you think it is not discrimination you are fooling or deluding yourself. Nevertheless, lets hear your opinion. Why there has only been 2 hindu cricketer in Pakistan's cricket history? Why you think it is the case?

 

[Rajdeep]

Why are there no Dalit Captains in Indian Cricket team ? Despite Dalits making up such huge percentage of Indian population ? Is there representation proportionate to their overall population ? Why Indian Cricket is dominated by a few Upper Caste players ?

Lol...everyone is aware there is a discrimination against Dalits & lower castes in India. I am fighting all my life to break this caste barrier so that hindus are united. Are you saying likes Dalits in India, hindus are also discriminated in Pakistan?

#SelfGoal

 

[JaDed]

Because the two are not mutually exclusive. Pakistan does recognize the minorities and their rights and they are even represented on the flag. Pakistani cricket team has had minority players in the past and there are plenty of Hindu and Christian judges and other government officers in Pakistan as well.

A Muslim democratic republic, if governed properly provides more rights to non Muslims than Saudia Arabia and UAE etc where minorities love to live even without equal rights just for the money.
If Pakistan’s economy was better, it would be better place to live for Hindus and Christians than KSA or UAE.

They live in KSA , Qatar, UAE only coz money not for anything else, there are Pakistani posters on this very forum that have spoken about discrimination in Qatar for non -Arab, even the laws in Qatar are so much pro Qatari.

If given a choice between West and Middle east literally every non-Muslim and majority non-Muslims would choose. Western nations.

Religious republics will never be better than western nations.

 

[Stewie]

It concerns me when even smart posters deny there's any discrimination.

There is almost always discrimination against minorities in sports.

- Indian Muslim players have to show themselves more patriotic than their Hindu counterparts and face more pointed questioning when they fail
- Muslim players in England ( which is supposed to be more advanced) have documented struggles and racial discrimination they have to face

But here we have thoughtful posters saying they don't believe there's any discrimination against religious minorities in Pakistani sports - a country formed to safeguard the interests of it's majority religion.

If that's what you truly believe, I fear for Pakistan.

I think you and Indians in general are very very confused over Pakistan’s identity, and I am not surprised because Pakistanis themselves are.

Safe guarding the interests of practitioners of a particular faith does not by default mean trampling on the rights of others. This is a very one-sided and narrow view, one that the Indian RWers love to propagate. If you follow Islamic Jurisprudence, the rights of minorities are very well emphasized.

You might like to think we keep all Hindus and Christian’s locked up in our basements in chains, but I assure you this perception could not be farther from the truth.

Now let’s talk about the topic at hand. Was there discrimination in the locker room with Kaneria and Youhana? Yes absolutely. Other players did discriminate when it came to those two, based on news reports and interviews.

But was there any discrimination when it comes to selection? This is the tricky part I tried to address in my previous posts. It’s none more so than even Muslim players face. Favoritism and politics is the bigger evil.

I remember Kaneria has been well below par at one point in his career and yet he was persisted with because he was buddies with Inzi.

If you don’t believe me, maybe someone can do an analysis or minority players at domestic level and Sindhi and balochi players and then analyze how many of these demographics make it to the national level.

People who don’t live in Pakistan don’t understand this complicated dynamics. I have lived in Pakistan and I have seen Christians, Sikhs, Hindus in important government posts and even in the army. But the truth is the minority numbers are small due to overall economic situation and they tend to either move for greener pastures or run their own businesses. Most minorities who stayed in Pakistan after the partition were business owners who decided to stay because of their established businesses.

It’s a very different demographic from those that are attracted to cricket in Pakistan.

 

[NishanKonar]

There is definitely discrimination against Dalits, but there have been various non uppercaste players ,all Yadavs are not upper caste..even various Kumars aren’t uppercaste(Bhuvi etc),
Also India does have various non Hindu players making up our sports representation not only cricket but boxing, Tennis etc

The team that played in the 2022 World Cup final had 6 backward caste players

1. Bumrah
2. Siraj
3. Shami
4. Surya Kumar Yadav
5. Kuldeep Yadav
6. Shubman Gill

Thats more than half of the playing XI

 

[NishanKonar]

I think you and Indians in general are very very confused over Pakistan’s identity, and I am not surprised because Pakistanis themselves are.

Safe guarding the interests of practitioners of a particular faith does not by default mean trampling on the rights of others. This is a very one-sided and narrow view, one that the Indian RWers love to propagate. If you follow Islamic Jurisprudence, the rights of minorities are very well emphasized.
You might like to think we keep all Hindus and Christian’s locked up in our basements in chains, but I assure you this perception could not be farther from the truth.

Now let’s talk about the topic at hand. Was there discrimination in the locker room with Kaneria and Youhana? Yes absolutely. Other players did discriminate when it came to those two, based on news reports and interviews.
Ok
But was there any discrimination when it comes to selection? This is the tricky part I tried to address in my previous posts. It’s none more so than even Muslim players face. Favoritism and politics is the bigger evil.

I remember Kaneria has been well below par at one point in his career and yet he was persisted with because he was buddies with Inzi.

If you don’t believe me, maybe someone can do an analysis or minority players at domestic level and Sindhi and balochi players and then analyze how many of these demographics make it to the national level.

People who don’t live in Pakistan don’t understand this complicated dynamics. I have lived in Pakistan and I have seen Christians, Sikhs, Hindus in important government posts and even in the army. But the truth is the minority numbers are small due to overall economic situation and they tend to either move for greener pastures or run their own businesses. Most minorities who stayed in Pakistan after the partition were business owners who decided to stay because of their established businesses.

It’s a very different demographic from those that are attracted to cricket in Pakistan.

Hindus are 2% of Pakistan and only 2 Hindus played for Pakistan. That's really pathetic

Just for comparison. Sikhs are 2% each in India and look at how many played for India. There are 3 Sikhs in current playing XI

 

[Stewie]

They live in KSA , Qatar, UAE only coz money not for anything else, there are Pakistani posters on this very forum that have spoken about discrimination in Qatar for non -Arab, even the laws in Qatar are so much pro Qatari.

If given a choice between West and Middle east literally every non-Muslim and majority non-Muslims would choose. Western nations.

Religious republics will never be better than western nations.

While I agree 100% with your views, I think you completely missed the point of my post.

If done right, minorities are very very well protected in an Islamic republic.

You guys tend to think otherwise.

Funny you used the gulf countries as an example and how they treat even Muslim non Arabs. So what hope is there for minorities. That shows how truly close they are to the picture of Islam. The Prophet said “kissi arbi ko ajmi per ya ajmi ko arbi per bartari nahi siwai taqwa ke” and yet we see that discrimination in Arab countries all the time.

 

[Stewie]

Hindus are 2% of Pakistan and only 2 Hindus played for Pakistan. That's really pathetic

Just for comparison. Sikhs are 2% each in India and look at how many played for India. There are 3 Sikhs in current playing XI

Obviously you didn’t read my argument or didn’t want to acknowledge it

 

[Hextro]

Staggering display of dishonesty.

It concerns me when even smart posters deny there's any discrimination.

Could you please provide a direct quote where I made such a statement? It's quite baffling that you would even suggest that I did.

But here we have thoughtful posters saying they don't believe there's any discrimination against religious minorities in Pakistani sports - a country formed to safeguard the interests of it's majority religion.

From my original comment.

Please note that these reasons will not encompass racial, religious, or color discrimination, as those are well-known factors. Instead, I aim to delve into lesser-discussed aspects that outsiders may be less familiar with.

Why are you misrepresenting my words? I clearly stated that my response aimed to address often overlooked factors at play in Pakistan's dynamics. I was simply trying to educate those who may not understand Pakistan's dynamics the same way I do.

I explicitly acknowledged religious discrimination as a significant issue by noting it as a well-known factor, as you can see in the highlighted portion of my comment.

All you need to do is read the comment you're replying to. Why is it so difficult for you to accurately interpret my words? I find it concerning that you're deliberately distorting my comment and attributing false statements to me.

If that's what you truly believe, I fear for Pakistan.

On the contrary, should I harbor concerns for India based on your flawed argument? You fail to distinguish between the viewpoints of two individuals and the collective perspectives of 240 million people. Following that same logic, I could unfairly generalize your viewpoint to encompass the entire population of 1.4-5 billion Indians and assert that they all engage in bad faith arguments.

Do you recognize the potential consequences of your narrow perspective?

 

[Red-Indian]

I think you and Indians in general are very very confused over Pakistan’s identity, and I am not surprised because Pakistanis themselves are.

Safe guarding the interests of practitioners of a particular faith does not by default mean trampling on the rights of others. This is a very one-sided and narrow view, one that the Indian RWers love to propagate. If you follow Islamic Jurisprudence, the rights of minorities are very well emphasized.

You might like to think we keep all Hindus and Christian’s locked up in our basements in chains, but I assure you this perception could not be farther from the truth.

Now let’s talk about the topic at hand. Was there discrimination in the locker room with Kaneria and Youhana? Yes absolutely. Other players did discriminate when it came to those two, based on news reports and interviews.

But was there any discrimination when it comes to selection? This is the tricky part I tried to address in my previous posts. It’s none more so than even Muslim players face. Favoritism and politics is the bigger evil.

I remember Kaneria has been well below par at one point in his career and yet he was persisted with because he was buddies with Inzi.

If you don’t believe me, maybe someone can do an analysis or minority players at domestic level and Sindhi and balochi players and then analyze how many of these demographics make it to the national level.

People who don’t live in Pakistan don’t understand this complicated dynamics. I have lived in Pakistan and I have seen Christians, Sikhs, Hindus in important government posts and even in the army. But the truth is the minority numbers are small due to overall economic situation and they tend to either move for greener pastures or run their own businesses. Most minorities who stayed in Pakistan after the partition were business owners who decided to stay because of their established businesses.

It’s a very different demographic from those that are attracted to cricket in Pakistan.

I've heard that argument before. If true Islamic principles are followed, minority interests are better protected in an Islamic state than a Secular republic. I'm here to tell you true principles are never followed. Not in a Hindu state, not in a Buddhist state, not in a Christian nation and definitely not in any Islamic state today. I don't think religious principles are designed to be followed in a modern state. So let's set that aside and talk realities on the ground.

Personally I'm not proud of how minority rights are protected (on the ground not in the books) in India. But if you tell me minorities are better shielded from discrimination in Pakistan in government, bureaucracy, business and to the topic of this thread in sport, then I'm afraid you have a huge burden of proof.

In all my 30+ years of watching cricket, there have been 2 minorities who played for Pakistan. One converted to Islam. The other seems to hate Pakistan. There's obviously something the matter. If you don't want to acknowledge it, it's no hair off my back. This is only a discussion after all

 

[Red-Indian]

Staggering display of dishonesty.



Could you please provide a direct quote where I made such a statement? It's quite baffling that you would even suggest that I did.



From my original comment.



Why are you misrepresenting my words? I clearly stated that my response aimed to address often overlooked factors at play in Pakistan's dynamics. I was simply trying to educate those who may not understand Pakistan's dynamics the same way I do.

I explicitly acknowledged religious discrimination as a significant issue by noting it as a well-known factor, as you can see in the highlighted portion of my comment.

All you need to do is read the comment you're replying to. Why is it so difficult for you to accurately interpret my words? I find it concerning that you're deliberately distorting my comment and attributing false statements to me.



On the contrary, should I harbor concerns for India based on your flawed argument? You fail to distinguish between the viewpoints of two individuals and the collective perspectives of 240 million people. Following that same logic, I could unfairly generalize your viewpoint to encompass the entire population of 1.4-5 billion Indians and assert that they all engage in bad faith arguments.

Do you recognize the potential consequences of your narrow perspective?

I apologise if you're so deeply offended. I guess I read your post as 'I won't talk about the elephant in the room since it's obvious but let's discuss all the other reasons why the room seems a little cramped.'

Stewie's post was more specific - 'Oh I assure you there's no elephant in the room. The real people of the room know that the tight fit is because we have too much furniture in here.'

To your last point about generalization, I try not to make any but I still have to see one post from a Pakistani (excepting your one liner) acknowledging that religious discrimination may have played a significant part in under-representation of minorities in Pakistani cricket and sport.

 

[Stewie]

I've heard that argument before. If true Islamic principles are followed, minority interests are better protected in an Islamic state than a Secular republic. I'm here to tell you true principles are never followed. Not in a Hindu state, not in a Buddhist state, not in a Christian nation and definitely not in any Islamic state today. I don't think religious principles are designed to be followed in a modern state. So let's set that aside and talk realities on the ground.

Personally I'm not proud of how minority rights are protected (on the ground not in the books) in India. But if you tell me minorities are better shielded from discrimination in Pakistan in government, bureaucracy, business and to the topic of this thread in sport, then I'm afraid you have a huge burden of proof.

In all my 30+ years of watching cricket, there have been 2 minorities who played for Pakistan. One converted to Islam. The other seems to hate Pakistan. There's obviously something the matter. If you don't want to acknowledge it, it's no hair off my back. This is only a discussion after all

I don’t see the correlation of Yousaf’s converting to Islam with discrimination.

Yes, I agree with some parts of your statement but not all. I already acknowledged there has been discrimination in the dressing room.

I guess the point to argue is whether there is systemic discrimination or if the discrimination is a result of Pakistan being an Islamic republic. It’s a bit like saying is there racial discrimination in the US where there is separation of church and state? And yet we all know it exists.

So agreed.. no system is perfect. They all have their flaws. The issues in Pakistan are not due to a system being imperfect, which it might very well be, but the practitioners of the system. And the victims are not just the minorities. I have said enough on it, don’t feel like repeating myself.

 

[Red-Indian]

I don’t see the correlation of Yousaf’s converting to Islam with discrimination.

You don't? Sure let's lay that aside. I don't know enough about his personal circumstances to argue the point anyway.

Yes, I agree with some parts of your statement but not all. I already acknowledged there has been discrimination in the dressing room.

Then I guess your argument is that there's discrimination only in the dressing room but not at any level below that. Any under-representation of minorities is due to the other factors you detailed. Then I have to ask what makes the dressing room so unique a place to fester such discrimination?

I guess the point to argue is whether there is systemic discrimination or if the discrimination is a result of Pakistan being an Islamic republic. It’s a bit like saying is there racial discrimination in the US where there is separation of church and state? And yet we all know it exists.

This we can argue true. My argument is that Pakistan being an Islamic republic makes makes religious discrimination more likely. I agree I can't prove it but for me it seems likely that a country based on a religion would discriminate against followers of another religion. Exhibit A - specific examples of discrimination against Ahmadis. I'm open to discussion though.

Finally your point about everyone being a victim in a poorly administered system. Yes everyone gets it bad but minorities always have the worst of it. Which is why laws try to give them special protections and privileges. Affirmative action and voting rights acts in the US, reservations, Wakf laws and unique civil code (that the Hindu Rashtra gang like to call minority appeasement) in India etc. I don't see that in Pakistan.

 

[Stewie]

You don't? Sure let's lay that aside. I don't know enough about his personal circumstances to argue the point anyway.

Then I guess your argument is that there's discrimination only in the dressing room but not at any level below that. Any under-representation of minorities is due to the other factors you detailed. Then I have to ask what makes the dressing room so unique a place to fester such discrimination?


This we can argue true. My argument is that Pakistan being an Islamic republic makes makes religious discrimination more likely. I agree I can't prove it but for me it seems likely that a country based on a religion would discriminate against followers of another religion. Exhibit A - specific examples of discrimination against Ahmadis. I'm open to discussion though.

Finally your point about everyone being a victim in a poorly administered system. Yes everyone gets it bad but minorities always have the worst of it. Which is why laws try to give them special protections and privileges. Affirmative action and voting rights acts in the US, reservations, Wakf laws and unique civil code (that the Hindu Rashtra gang like to call minority appeasement) in India etc. I don't see that in Pakistan.

I honestly can’t speak to the reality of the dressing room. It’s a case of perplexing duality.
You could argue that the inzi led regime brought the conservative ultra religious side to the team. Inzi, yousaf, Anwar, Mushy, saqi these were the guys with long beards and praying on the field and as a team and brought a new flavor to the team so you would imagine the minorities would suffer in their presence. But Kaneria actually got the best of it during that era.

Afridi and Razzaq and Akhtar were the liberal ones. If I am not mistaken the worst behavior is attached with those people or perhaps I am mistaken. Not sure. But if true, it’s down to the overall poor character of those players and not because of some religious philosophy.

In a way, I’ll admit the Pakistani society is not very receptive or inclusive towards non Muslims. But the systems in place do not “supposedly” discriminate, was my thought.

That’s just my observation. And yes we do not have stuff like affirmative action or quota system in place as far as I know. You are correct they may offer some protections.

I think we ought be straying from the topic a bit too much though. The thread is about the minority representation. Don’t let those numbers make you believe this is by design. No matter what people say, the 90% of Pakistan team is actually picked on merit. Favoritism comes into play for 1-2 spots.

Where the system fails is promoting and developing the game around the country, and to make it appealing as a career. I don’t think it was appealing as a career when I was a kid and I don’t think it’s appealing now. Minorties have better options to make a decent living or they simply take the exit route using the asylum card.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

Interesting to note that despite making up only 2% of India's population and mostly residing in states like goa, kerala and the north east where cricket isnt as popular as the rest of the country so many Christians have played for India

Vijay hazare, Chandu borde, Roger and Stuart binny, Robin uthappa, sanju samson and these are just from the top of my head

 

[Rajdeep]

Truth be told, I am actually surprised that no other cricket board, especially BCCI raised concern regarding this blatant discrimination by PCB. This is a fans forum and I fully expect PCT fans to defend their board blindly and that is fine, however boards must speak up on this topic more. It is all well and good for Aus/NZ to ban cricket ties with Afghanistan due to moral stance but one wonders where the morals go in this specific case. Hopefully brother Jay Shah will raise this with ICC in next meeting.

 

[Stewie]

Interesting to note that despite making up only 2% of India's population and mostly residing in states like goa, kerala and the north east where cricket isnt as popular as the rest of the country so many Christians have played for India

Vijay hazare, Chandu borde, Roger and Stuart binny, Robin uthappa, sanju samson and these are just from the top of my head

Didn’t India have a quota system for a long time? Maybe they still do. I believe every state needed to have some representation in the national team. Maybe that’s how those players got in.

 

[offstump]

What is this 'Burden of proof' you are looking for?

There has only been 2 hindu and handful of Christian cricketers in the history of Pakistan cricket which is 70 odd years. It is a fact...so not sure what proof you are looking for. And when it combines with Kaneria's accusation which is authenticated by Akhtar, one can't help but think about discrimination.

However, if you think it is not discrimination you are fooling or deluding yourself. Nevertheless, lets hear your opinion. Why there has only been 2 hindu cricketer in Pakistan's cricket history? Why you think it is the case?

What is this 'Burden of proof' you are looking for?

There has only been 2 hindu and handful of Christian cricketers in the history of Pakistan cricket which is 70 odd years. It is a fact...so not sure what proof you are looking for. And when it combines with Kaneria's accusation which is authenticated by Akhtar, one can't help but think about discrimination.

However, if you think it is not discrimination you are fooling or deluding yourself. Nevertheless, let’s hear your opinion. Why there has only been 2 hindu cricketer in Pakistan's cricket history? Why you think it is the case?

Ok, so it’s established you have no basis for your statement. Kaneria may have been treated badly by some in the team yet he played 61 tests for Pakistan. His selection and opportunity to play for Pakistan was not impacted by your theory that Hindus are prevented from playing for Pakistan.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

Didn’t India have a quota system for a long time? Maybe they still do. I believe every state needed to have some representation in the national team. Maybe that’s how those players got in.

Not really, never had a quota system for cricket. Vijay Hazare is one of our greatest ever batsmen though while the rest of them were average

 

[Stewie]

Not really, never had a quota system for cricket. Vijay Hazare is one of our greatest ever batsmen though while the rest of them were average

I was pretty sure it existed at some point, and I looked it up to make sure I was not being delusional.

Maybe this was practiced in unofficial capacity but I’m sure there is some truth to it.

Quota system gives BCCI blushes - News18

Truth of the quota system in the selection surfaced, when only a fast bowler made it to a players' shortlist of 25.

www.news18.com

 

[Hextro]

I apologise if you're so deeply offended.

You deliberately distorted my words and presented them in a bigoted manner. I believe most individuals would feel offended if something like that happened to them.

I guess I read your post as 'I won't talk about the elephant in the room since it's obvious but let's discuss all the other reasons why the room seems a little cramped.'

So you failed to grasp my initial comment until I provided further clarification? It appears that you are attempting to vilify my original statement in this and your previous comment.

There is no justification for you to presume my intentions, yet you have done so and continue to do so. I would advise you to read the entirety of the comments you encounter and refrain from selectively focusing on segments that align with the narrative you wish to promote.

Unless you explicitly acknowledge that your assessment of my comment was incorrect, I will continue to assume malicious intent on your part.

To your last point about generalization, I try not to make any but I still have to see one post from a Pakistani (excepting your one liner) acknowledging that religious discrimination may have played a significant part in under-representation of minorities in Pakistani cricket and sport.

Forgive me for acknowledging the diversity of opinions within a population of over 240 million people and avoiding generalizations. Apparently, I should base my understanding of complex issues solely on online forum comments, according to your view of the world.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

I was pretty sure it existed at some point, and I looked it up to make sure I was not being delusional.

Maybe this was practiced in unofficial capacity but I’m sure there is some truth to it.

Quota system gives BCCI blushes - News18

Truth of the quota system in the selection surfaced, when only a fast bowler made it to a players' shortlist of 25.

www.news18.com

There's no official quota and it's not based on religion.

But the bombay lobby is strong, they'll support you regardless of your religion

 

[Stewie]

There's no official quota and it's not based on religion.

But the bombay lobby is strong, they'll support you regardless of your religion

That’s how it was or is in Pakistan too. The Karachi lobby vehemently supported Kaneria. Rashid Latif continued to claim he was innocent of fixing.

And therein was the gist of my argument. There is favoritism.. yes but not discrimination as such based on religion in Pakistan cricket. Once again it’s hard to prove such a subjective thing.

 

[Red-Indian]

You deliberately distorted my words and presented them in a bigoted manner. I believe most individuals would feel offended if something like that happened to them.



So you failed to grasp my initial comment until I provided further clarification? It appears that you are attempting to vilify my original statement in this and your previous comment.

There is no justification for you to presume my intentions, yet you have done so and continue to do so. I would advise you to read the entirety of the comments you encounter and refrain from selectively focusing on segments that align with the narrative you wish to promote.

Unless you explicitly acknowledge that your assessment of my comment was incorrect, I will continue to assume malicious intent on your part.



Forgive me for acknowledging the diversity of opinions within a population of over 240 million people and avoiding generalizations. Apparently, I should base my understanding of complex issues solely on online forum comments, according to your view of the world.

I assure you there was no malicious intent and I should've given you credit for acknowledging the racial, religious, or color discrimination before going on to discuss other factors but given the other posters who refused to even consider that religious discriminations could be a factor in the under-representation of minority cricketers, I hope you'll forgive me as well for assuming that you were in the same group. I've already apologized.

As far as the diversity of opinions in a 240 Million population regarding prioritizing minorities and their rights goes, I think I've seen enough evidence on neutrally reported news sources and this and other forum to form my own opinions.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Probably Kaneria's allegations and the past behaviour of certain Pakistani cricketers have dissuaded minorities from taking up the sport?

 

[Markhor]

There are four Christian Pakistani Test cricketers since 1947.

Wallis Mathias - sadly died at the age of 59 in 1994.
Antao D'Souza - also of Goan descent and still alive.
Duncan Sharpe - the only white Pakistani cricketer and currently living in Australia. According to his niece, he had a brother called Robin who passed away in 1990 who played club cricket in Pakistan.
Mohammad Yousuf - who obviously converted to Islam in 2005.

There was also another Christian called Sohail Fazal who played a couple of ODIs in 1989.

I wish someone would write a book on the minority cricketers of Pakistan before these men are no longer around to share their stories. England and Australia constantly promote their history. If we don't tell our story who will ?

 

[Rajdeep]

There are four Christian Pakistani Test cricketers since 1947.

Wallis Mathias - sadly died at the age of 59 in 1994.
Antao D'Souza - also of Goan descent and still alive.
Duncan Sharpe - the only white Pakistani cricketer and currently living in Australia. According to his niece, he had a brother called Robin who passed away in 1990 who played club cricket in Pakistan.
Mohammad Yousuf - who obviously converted to Islam in 2005.

There was also another Christian called Sohail Fazal who played a couple of ODIs in 1989.

I wish someone would write a book on the minority cricketers of Pakistan before these men are no longer around to share their stories. England and Australia constantly promote their history. If we don't tell our story who will ?

Brother we all are aware that there were 4 Christian & 2 hindu cricketers. However, don't you think it is very less considering PCT has a history of 70+ years? So the purpose of this thread is not to list down the handful of minority players played for them but to understand why there are so few representations in the first place?

Reasons can be - Discrimination (most likely), not good enough (hard to believe) or no one wants to take cricket as an option.

If you can shed some light on this, it will be helpful. Thank you.

 

[Hextro]

As far as the diversity of opinions in a 240 Million population regarding prioritizing minorities and their rights goes, I think I've seen enough evidence on neutrally reported news sources and this and other forum to form my own opinions.

So, despite all logical reasoning, you insist that within a country of over 240 million people, there's a scarcity of individuals supporting minority rights? Ironically, you're engaging in dialogue with someone (myself) who staunchly advocates for the rights of every minority. By your own standards, as an active participant on an internet forum, I apparently represent a significant portion of what Pakistan's population believes. However, I must clarify that I'm merely following your line of reasoning, as I don't believe that any single internet forum or social media platform can fully encapsulate the beliefs of an entire population.

I recommend that you broaden your viewpoint. Such generalizations hardly ever lead to good things.

 

[Markhor]

Brother we all are aware that there were 4 Christian & 2 hindu cricketers. However, don't you think it is very less considering PCT has a history of 70+ years? So the purpose of this thread is not to list down the handful of minority players played for them but to understand why there are so few representations in the first place?

Reasons can be - Discrimination (most likely), not good enough (hard to believe) or no one wants to take cricket as an option.

If you can shed some light on this, it will be helpful. Thank you.

Unfortunately Pakistan's sports journalists spend more time on gossip mongering than on investigative reporting into difficult subjects like this so there's little light to shed.

What I will say is minorities represent some of the most impoverished communities in an already impoverished nation, and cricket is an expensive hobby. Unless you have a benefactor, most minority cricketers simply cannot afford the cost of equipment, access to facilities, or time off employment to pursue the sport professionally.

I'm sure discrimination plays a role too as Pakistan has gradually become a more intolerant nation since the mid-1970s. It's no coincidence most of the Christians representing Pakistan played prior to the Zia-ul-Haq era. However bear in mind there's also very few ethnic Sindhis and Balochis who've played internationally too. That's reflective of how Pakistan, despite it's federal setup on paper and founding commitment to preserving minorities rights, remains in practice a brutally majoritarian nation.

How to weight these factors is not for me or you or pointscoring to determine, but for the minority cricketers of Pakistan themselves. I prefer not to put words into their mouths.

 

[Champ_Pal]

It will be awkward for Christians, Hindus and Sikhs in PCT when they cannot take part in any of the prayers and team building activities that involve religion. Its better they are not in the team at all. They will feel left out.

 

[Champ_Pal]

The team that played in the 2022 World Cup final had 6 backward caste players

1. Bumrah
2. Siraj
3. Shami
4. Surya Kumar Yadav
5. Kuldeep Yadav
6. Shubman Gill

Thats more than half of the playing XI

Bumrah and Gill are Sikh. Not sure if they are considered low caste.
Siraj and Shami are Muslims. Their ancestors could be Backward Caste Hindus.
SKY and Kuldeep come under Backward Caste.
Some say Kohli follows both Hindu and Sikhism.
Even KL Rahul ( I believe is a Shetty) comes under Backward Caste in some Southern states.

This is over 60% of the team are not part of Upper Caste. BCCI is as secular as it gets.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It will be awkward for Christians, Hindus and Sikhs in PCT when they cannot take part in any of the prayers and team building activities that involve religion. Its better they are not in the team at all. They will feel left out.

I don't know if there is still any religious team building going on since it was introduced by Inzi/Yousuf if my memory serves right. With them gone it might not be so big a part of the dressing room.

Bumrah and Gill are Sikh. Not sure if they are considered low caste.
Siraj and Shami are Muslims. Their ancestors could be Backward Caste Hindus.
SKY and Kuldeep come under Backward Caste.
Some say Kohli follows both Hindu and Sikhism.
Even KL Rahul ( I believe is a Shetty) comes under Backward Caste in some Southern states.

This is over 60% of the team are not part of Upper Caste. BCCI is as secular as it gets.

Siraj and Shami could have high caste ancestors, can't really put figures out there on uneducated guesswork.

 

[Champ_Pal]

I don't know if there is still any religious team building going on since it was introduced by Inzi/Yousuf if my memory serves right. With them gone it might not be so big a part of the dressing room.




Siraj and Shami could have high caste ancestors, can't really put figures out there on uneducated guesswork.

90% of Indian Muslims are from low caste and dalit converts. The Ashraf Muslims are a very small minority. Chances of Shami and Siraj belonging to low caste are pretty high.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

90% of Indian Muslims are from low caste and dalit converts. The Ashraf Muslims are a very small minority. Chances of Shami and Siraj

If India was really secular you wouldn't be breaking down different player religions by caste in the first place.