Why do British Pakistanis tend to be a lot more conservative than Pakistanis in North America?

[HappyWarsFan]

As a Canadian, I've noticed this trend for a while - I feel that, based on my experiences online and the few times I've visited the UK on vacations, that British Pakistanis seem a lot more conservative, both culturally and religiously. Some may even say some extremism rises out of it at times.

Of course, one cannot generalise, and I'm not saying all British Pakistanis are like this, or that North American Pakistanis are never conservative. But it is just a trend I noticed.

Any reasons on this or personal experiences?

 

[JaDed]

I wouldn’t club Canadian and American ones either.. I generally notice Canadian and UK ones to be similar and American-Australian ones to be similar.

My assumption is it’s probably to do with immigration patterns and policies of countries.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

It’s very simple.

Pakistanis who went to US were generally ones who were educated or went for education. They were relatively well off (not rich obv) for most part.

The Pakistanis who went to UK was mostly labor class

 

[HappyWarsFan]

I wouldn’t club Canadian and American ones either.. I generally notice Canadian and UK ones to be similar and American-Australian ones to be similar.

My assumption is it’s probably to do with immigration patterns and policies of countries.

Interesting. I feel with Canada, it would depend on the area but I've felt they are fairly similar to Americans, but that's just my own experiences. I myself and the circles I'm in are fairly liberal but I do think there are some very tightly knit, more traditional communities here and there, especially around Toronto.

 

[ElRaja]

ahh, this old chestnut again

1. uk pakistanis tend to have stronger ties to the motherland being closer and in more manageable timezones, they also tend to marry from back home a lot
2. the UK Pakistani population is proportionally massive compared to the USA, where they are massively spread out and diluted, the likelihood of maintaining a homogenous parallel culture is difficult
3. British society tends to have far more space for parallel cultures than American, where corporatism and big brands tend to drive a lot of culture
4. a lot of non-conservative britpaks tend not to stand out in any way in multicultural cities like london, brum or manc, so ur less likely to notice them
5. the UK is far more tolerant of pluralism of thought, having differing views between groups of friends and even families is not uncommon, hence less need to conform to the dominant culture

that sums it up i think, had to get this in before i knew where the thread would eventually end up

 

[SalimBhai]

Immigration patterns, policies, education level , assimilation level to the host culture .

 

[Champ_Pal]

I have seen similar topics before. I think it has to something to do with education. American Pakistanis also tend to have lesser opportunities to live among Pakistani only communities like it happens in England.

Lastly, US requires people with proper educational qualifications to qualify to live there. Illiterate Asians cannot get in easily.

 

[Mockingbird]

ahh, this old chestnut again

1. uk pakistanis tend to have stronger ties to the motherland being closer and in more manageable timezones, they also tend to marry from back home a lot
2. the UK Pakistani population is proportionally massive compared to the USA, where they are massively spread out and diluted, the likelihood of maintaining a homogenous parallel culture is difficult
3. British society tends to have far more space for parallel cultures than American, where corporatism and big brands tend to drive a lot of culture
4. a lot of non-conservative britpaks tend not to stand out in any way in multicultural cities like london, brum or manc, so ur less likely to notice them
5. the UK is far more tolerant of pluralism of thought, having differing views between groups of friends and even families is not uncommon, hence less need to conform to the dominant culture

that sums it up i think, had to get this in before i knew where the thread would eventually end up

I think you missed the biggest reason - education & wealth.

Most American Pakistanis tend to be highly educated (they need to be one to meet the visa requirements) and generally come from wealthier families from Pakistani cities - similar to the Indian ones, so they are better assimilated with the local population . If I understand right, many of the Brit ones came from a rural area of Pakistan under some kind of water treaty with England, they mostly lived in Ghettos and continue the conservative practices of their homeland.

 

[SalimBhai]

I have seen similar topics before. I think it has to something to do with education. American Pakistanis also tend to have lesser opportunities to live among Pakistani only communities like it happens in England.

Lastly, US requires people with proper educational qualifications to qualify to live there. Illiterate Asians cannot get in easily.

The last part is not 100 percent true Through migration relatives can come also.

 

[ElRaja]

I think you missed the biggest reason - education & wealth.

Most American Pakistanis tend to be highly educated (they need to be one to meet the visa requirements) and generally come from wealthier families from Pakistani cities - similar to the Indian ones, so they are better assimilated with the local population . If I understand right, many of the Brit ones came from a rural area of Pakistan under some kind of water treaty with England, they mostly lived in Ghettos and continue the conservative practices of their homeland.

the vast majority of britpaks are no longer first gen, they have lived here for two, three and in some cases four generations. ive been to America and met pakistanis from very modest backgrounds, whilst there may be some difference in the ratios its not as extreme as always portrayed on this forum.

there are nearly 300,000 ethnic pakistanis living in London, and the majority are not living in ghettos. they live within 10 to 15 minutes of communities which are completely different to them. there is no shortage of exposure to other cultures, and some assimilate and some dont.

for every adil rashid you have a zayn malik, for every moeen ali you have a riz ahmed, in fact if i start listing them, sadiq khan, art malik, sajid javid, etc, there are far more famous britpaks who would be considered culturally centrist or non conservative, however we discount them, and the plurality of cultural expression within the britpak community completely and revert to the trope of the conservative brit pak cos that an image of a certain subsection which the media loves to portray.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

As a Canadian, I've noticed this trend for a while - I feel that, based on my experiences online and the few times I've visited the UK on vacations, that British Pakistanis seem a lot more conservative, both culturally and religiously. Some may even say some extremism rises out of it at times.

Of course, one cannot generalise, and I'm not saying all British Pakistanis are like this, or that North American Pakistanis are never conservative. But it is just a trend I noticed.

Any reasons on this or personal experiences?

Yes, we can't generalize. And we shouldn't.

But IMO and in my personal experiences, that extra bit of conservatism in some British Pakistanis is basically focused on beard and putting cloak around women, and having peers and faqeers, and urs and mazaar, and taweez etc - and yet some of them will still abuse the system to unfairly suck on the social welfare.

The kind of abuse (not only by Pakistanis) but by almost all desi communities of South Asia and from the third world, may have played it's role to bring British economy to it's knees.

Focus on education and academic excellence seems minimal in general (you have some outliers) - and I think the idea of becoming a positive contributing member of the British society can be vastly improved.

IMO, one can follow his religion and faith - and also excel in academics and entrepreneurship. But this idea seems aliens to many British Pakistani households that live like illiterates villagers even after being third and fourth gen British.


It was very disappointing to see many, many youth of Pakistani origin have little to no regards of law and order. Lots of drugs, gangs and desi thug attire with that ugly crew cut on the display.

Many will now counter this with being compared to White Britons of English football and being compare to Jamaicans - to feel good about themselves.

I always tell them to compare yourself with your Indian counterparts in Education, Academics, Business, Entrepreneurship, and politics.

 

[SalimBhai]

Yes, we can't generalize. And we shouldn't.

But IMO and in my personal experiences, that extra bit of conservatism in some British Pakistanis is basically focused on beard and putting cloak around women, and having peers and faqeers, and urs and mazaar, and taweez etc - and yet some of them will still abuse the system to unfairly suck on the social welfare.

The kind of abuse (not only by Pakistanis) but by almost all desi communities of South Asia and from the third world, may have played it's role to bring British economy to it's knees.

Focus on education and academic excellence seems minimal in general (you have some outliers) - and I think the idea of becoming a positive contributing member of the British society can be vastly improved.

IMO, one can follow his religion and faith - and also excel in academics and entrepreneurship. But this idea seems aliens to many British Pakistani households that live like illiterates villagers even after being third and fourth gen British.


It was very disappointing to see many, many youth of Pakistani origin have little to no regards of law and order. Lots of drugs, gangs and desi thug attire with that ugly crew cut on the display.

Many will now counter this with being compared to White Britons of English football and being compare to Jamaicans - to feel good about themselves.

I always tell them to compare yourself with your Indian counterparts in Education, Academics, Business, Entrepreneurship, and politics.

Very good post. Good job

 

[saeedhk]

This boils down to the type of people that live in these two places. In the US, the majority are educated since the US has tough visa requirements. This translate into American Pakistanis beings opened minded, progressive and toward-looking.

On the other hand, the people who live in the UK are from the villages and rural areas of Pakistan and only came over due to the Mangla Dam Rising Project and spouse visas. Most of such people lack any kind of qualifications and are stuck in age-old cultural traits, norms and mores.

 

[RajBan]

ahh, this old chestnut again

1. uk pakistanis tend to have stronger ties to the motherland being closer and in more manageable timezones, they also tend to marry from back home a lot
2. the UK Pakistani population is proportionally massive compared to the USA, where they are massively spread out and diluted, the likelihood of maintaining a homogenous parallel culture is difficult
3. British society tends to have far more space for parallel cultures than American, where corporatism and big brands tend to drive a lot of culture
4. a lot of non-conservative britpaks tend not to stand out in any way in multicultural cities like london, brum or manc, so ur less likely to notice them
5. the UK is far more tolerant of pluralism of thought, having differing views between groups of friends and even families is not uncommon, hence less need to conform to the dominant culture

that sums it up i think, had to get this in before i knew where the thread would eventually end up

I will think US cities are more diverse and pluralistic than UK with London the only exception.

 

[Mockingbird]

You can defend as much as you like but the difference between the American and Brit population is extremely visible. American Pakistanis are highly educated (mostly doctors, but they aren’t too uncommon in Wall Street as well) and they live a regular suburban life mixing well with the general population. And even for the few first generation Pakistani Americans who weren’t educated, their kids are all doing extremely well in white collar jobs.

Also it is well known that many British Pakistani youths, are well, troublemakers with what 20 percent of the criminals in jail being of Pakistani origin or something? And as somebody pointed out, even the 3rd, 4th gen Brit Pakistanis aren’t known to be much into education/white collar jobs. The difference in the population subsets is stark.

 

[Dios]

It is the same for all South Asian expat communities. The ones based in the US are generally more educated and come from a higher societal status back home than the ones based in the UK (level of education and wealth is generally inversely correlated with religiosity). As a result, they are able to get better jobs and assimilate and integrate into society much better and this passes down through generations.

In general, people go to the UK when they are unable to make it to the US, Canada or Australia (in that order) and this is even more true now with the current state of the UK economy. I've come across many accounts of international students coming to the UK recently and regretting their decision big-time. The UK is a failing country and I say this as someone who grew up in the UK and now living in the US and I'm glad I decided to leave before the UK implodes further. No one in their right mind would choose the UK over the US.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I've travelled quite a bit in the US. I think what helps is that there are other large minority groups and US culture quite happily allows people to have multiple identities.

Most Americans when speak about their ancestry quite openly, most of it is probably false, but they are quite happy claiming multiple descents and celebrating different cultures.

There isn't much spotlight on individual groups because there are so many of them. For example, here in the UK you stand out in the workplace if you are Pakistani, in the US the blacks take a lot of the heat.

Older generation seems quite content and happy to let their kids become fully american and less Pakistani. I would say that the number of kids living a fully american lifestyle is massive - especially those attending colleges away from home. People here are mentioning UK based drug dealers etc - I would argue that American Pakistanis are mainly alcohol drinkers, pro lgbtq+ coconuts ( generalisation of course not all of them).

In contrast in the UK when our parents/grandparents got here they stuck out like a sore thumb. They were beaten up and abused. It became essential to retreat, group together and form our own areas. They had nothing else to fall back on apart from being Pakistani - so that became our sole identity. There was no interest in assimilation or integration because it often resulted in rejection. This resulted in deeper ties to the so called motherland.

it's not all doom and gloom. None of you US based guys had the initiative to make a popular Pakistani forum, so you are exposed to a lot more of things happening in the UK than we do in the US. On forums generally only bad news is shared and so you only see one side of the story.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

ahh, this old chestnut again

1. uk pakistanis tend to have stronger ties to the motherland being closer and in more manageable timezones, they also tend to marry from back home a lot
2. the UK Pakistani population is proportionally massive compared to the USA, where they are massively spread out and diluted, the likelihood of maintaining a homogenous parallel culture is difficult
3. British society tends to have far more space for parallel cultures than American, where corporatism and big brands tend to drive a lot of culture
4. a lot of non-conservative britpaks tend not to stand out in any way in multicultural cities like london, brum or manc, so ur less likely to notice them
5. the UK is far more tolerant of pluralism of thought, having differing views between groups of friends and even families is not uncommon, hence less need to conform to the dominant culture

that sums it up i think, had to get this in before i knew where the thread would eventually end up

I think the bolded is quite a london centric view. North of London can be quite brutal for different cultures or even points of view.

From my experience America is more accepting of different cultures and cultural quirks.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yes, we can't generalize. And we shouldn't.

But IMO and in my personal experiences, that extra bit of conservatism in some British Pakistanis is basically focused on beard and putting cloak around women, and having peers and faqeers, and urs and mazaar, and taweez etc - and yet some of them will still abuse the system to unfairly suck on the social welfare.

The kind of abuse (not only by Pakistanis) but by almost all desi communities of South Asia and from the third world, may have played it's role to bring British economy to it's knees.

Focus on education and academic excellence seems minimal in general (you have some outliers) - and I think the idea of becoming a positive contributing member of the British society can be vastly improved.

IMO, one can follow his religion and faith - and also excel in academics and entrepreneurship. But this idea seems aliens to many British Pakistani households that live like illiterates villagers even after being third and fourth gen British.


It was very disappointing to see many, many youth of Pakistani origin have little to no regards of law and order. Lots of drugs, gangs and desi thug attire with that ugly crew cut on the display.

Many will now counter this with being compared to White Britons of English football and being compare to Jamaicans - to feel good about themselves.

It's ironic because I always feel that so many threads on this subject are created expressly for the same reason. I always wonder that there must be something lacking in US Pakistanis lives that they need to compare themselves with some of the more insular Pakistani Brits to make them feel good about themselves. I think this stems from not having much of a visible presence in the US, so perhaps this gives them some sense of achievement where it isn't really acknowledged by Americans in general.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

It's ironic because I always feel that so many threads on this subject are created expressly for the same reason. I always wonder that there must be something lacking in US Pakistanis lives that they need to compare themselves with some of the more insular Pakistani Brits to make them feel good about themselves. I think this stems from not having much of a visible presence in the US, so perhaps this gives them some sense of achievement where it isn't really acknowledged by Americans in general.

For all of their supposed superiority I can't really think of many notable American Pakistanis.

At least we have 3-4 powerful politicians here ( and proper Pakistani origin not like the Indian origin politicians that were actually chased of Africa and fled here).

Perhaps I am biased but apart from Shahid Khan the businessman I can't think of any Americans.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It is the same for all South Asian expat communities. The ones based in the US are generally more educated and come from a higher societal status back home than the ones based in the UK (level of education and wealth is generally inversely correlated with religiosity). As a result, they are able to get better jobs and assimilate and integrate into society much better and this passes down through generations.

In general, people go to the UK when they are unable to make it to the US, Canada or Australia (in that order) and this is even more true now with the current state of the UK economy. I've come across many accounts of international students coming to the UK recently and regretting their decision big-time. The UK is a failing country and I say this as someone who grew up in the UK and now living in the US and I'm glad I decided to leave before the UK implodes further. No one in their right mind would choose the UK over the US.

Where about in the UK did you live out of interest? I know a lot of south Asians tend to live in dense city centres all clustered together in their own communities - like Bangladeshis mainly lived in Brick Lane, Sikhs lived in Southall, Hindus lived in Wembley etc. But UK has a lot more to it than that, but those with insular mindsets tend to be very fearful of stepping outside of their own world.

 

[Major]

European Union basically, and some what Mirpuris

The goal of every Pakistani used to be to run off to Europe and make their way up UK. Thus, alot of these people were not really educated and went through dinkys (smuggled), or entered the country during the world cups, or took visit visas etc. Once they entered Europe, they would run to UK as UK was paying better for jobs. Eventually once in UK, they would than claim asylum etc. Than their generations would start getting born. In families where education was not really a priority, most of their children dont end up being highly educated.

There is also the mirpuri group that got in due to the dam.

In North America its different. First of all, no one would do a dinky from Pakistan to North America, too expensive, not possible and you are more likely to die in such a trip. Majority of the Pakistans that go to Canada and USA are the educated ones. Either through proper immigration, or on the basis of student visas or scholorship. After getting a student visa and doing a job they are than able to stay back as educated individuals. Even immigration takes educated people aswell, and majority of immigration through proper channel is done by educated people.

Canada had a point system where your education really mattered for immigration cases.

There is also the rich class, that can enter as international students by paying the very high fees. The rich class prefers USA over UK.

Also, in the immigration process, North America is very vigilant in there process. Since 9/11 they make sure no islamic radical crosses their borders

 

[cricketjoshila]

Yes, we can't generalize. And we shouldn't.

But IMO and in my personal experiences, that extra bit of conservatism in some British Pakistanis is basically focused on beard and putting cloak around women, and having peers and faqeers, and urs and mazaar, and taweez etc - and yet some of them will still abuse the system to unfairly suck on the social welfare.

The kind of abuse (not only by Pakistanis) but by almost all desi communities of South Asia and from the third world, may have played it's role to bring British economy to it's knees.

Focus on education and academic excellence seems minimal in general (you have some outliers) - and I think the idea of becoming a positive contributing member of the British society can be vastly improved.

IMO, one can follow his religion and faith - and also excel in academics and entrepreneurship. But this idea seems aliens to many British Pakistani households that live like illiterates villagers even after being third and fourth gen British.


It was very disappointing to see many, many youth of Pakistani origin have little to no regards of law and order. Lots of drugs, gangs and desi thug attire with that ugly crew cut on the display.

Many will now counter this with being compared to White Britons of English football and being compare to Jamaicans - to feel good about themselves.

I always tell them to compare yourself with your Indian counterparts in Education, Academics, Business, Entrepreneurship, and politics.

And what has the government done too tackle law and order, drugs, thuggery and gangs? Or the local politician is content with letting them be as long as he gets the votes?

Is the law enforcement afraid of being called racist or Islamophobic?

If a 3rd or 4th gen Brit of pakistani origin is what you have explained, a lot of blame goes to the government as well.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

For all of their supposed superiority I can't really think of many notable American Pakistanis.

At least we have 3-4 powerful politicians here ( and proper Pakistani origin not like the Indian origin politicians that were actually chased of Africa and fled here).

Perhaps I am biased but apart from Shahid Khan the businessman I can't think of any Americans.

I noted something similar about Indian ex-pat posters who kept posting about Shining India on a Pakistani forum. You can't help wonder why it's important to them, but then you realise they don't really get much respect in the USA, they are almost invisible. There's actually some great sketches about it from Goodness Gracious Me which highlights this syndrome.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I noted something similar about Indian ex-pat posters who kept posting about Shining India on a Pakistani forum. You can't help wonder why it's important to them, but then you realise they don't really get much respect in the USA, they are almost invisible. There's actually some great sketches about it from Goodness Gracious Me which highlights this syndrome.

I doubt that the financially most successful community in US, who are very well-known for their success in silicon valley and are now considered to be a very influential lobby at the Capitol cares about visibility in the eyes of a brit of pakistani origin.

If only you would care so much about your community, that isn't financially and education wise doing very well.

 

[Major]

I doubt that the financially most successful community in US, who are very well-known for their success in silicon valley and are now considered to be a very influential lobby at the Capitol cares about visibility in the eyes of a brit of pakistani origin.

If only you would care so much about your community, that isn't financially and education wise doing very well.

to be honest, Indians are valued soo much in USA that they even for wroldwide remote jobs, 80% of the websites allow Indians to apply from India and get a remote job.

Barely any website offer remote jobs to Pakistanis and the only way for a Pakistani to get a remote job is through another company that outsources them and provide HR services to another company.

For anyone to sit here and claim that Indians dont get respect in USA, that person is just being biased and nothing else.

The reason why Indians can get a job in USA and earn in dollars or wage rates of USA is because of the Indians that moved there and worked their way up in USA and are now part of the BOD that can influence decisions.

Pakistans, be it USA or UK are the ones that are more invisible, and havent progressed that much compared to Indians

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I doubt that the financially most successful community in US, who are very well-known for their success in silicon valley and are now considered to be a very influential lobby at the Capitol cares about visibility in the eyes of a brit of pakistani origin.

If only you would care so much about your community, that isn't financially and education wise doing very well.

This isn't meant to be about Indians to be honest, it was just about a similar mindset, where because the the foreign citizens in question don't have enough confidence to boast about their value amongs their peers in the USA, they seek out smaller pastures where they can feel more assertive to announce their worth.

It is perfectly natural to be honest, if a man is small in height, he will brag about other qualities such as how smart he is, or maybe find someone who is 5'2 and call him shorty.

 

[Technics 1210]

I do not see the points of such threads.

Conservatism has always been strong in the UK compared to liberal Amreeka due to laws, social constructs, and political views.

So the question in the OP is not just specific to Pakistanis, but any other ethnicities too. Indian, Bangladeshi, Australian, South African, Sri Lankan, Brazilian etc.

 

[JaDed]

I do not see the points of such threads.

Conservatism has always been strong in the UK compared to liberal Amreeka due to laws, social constructs, and political views.

So the question in the OP is not just specific to Pakistanis, but any other ethnicities too. Indian, Bangladeshi, Australian, South African, Sri Lankan, Brazilian etc.

Which is shocking to know because laws in US are way more conservative than UK.
Europe does lean liberalism compared to America

 

[RajBan]

This isn't meant to be about Indians to be honest, it was just about a similar mindset, where because the the foreign citizens in question don't have enough confidence to boast about their value amongs their peers in the USA, they seek out smaller pastures where they can feel more assertive to announce their worth.

It is perfectly natural to be honest, if a man is small in height, he will brag about other qualities such as how smart he is, or maybe find someone who is 5'2 and call him shorty.

Spot on. If the man is thick in his brains he will always be delighted about size than accomplishments or ability to deal complex scenarios. To each his own to find solace I guess.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Which is shocking to know because laws in US are way more conservative than UK.
Europe does lean liberalism compared to America

America is a big place, for every California or New York, you'll get an Alabama or Missouri. We have similar contrasts in the UK, not everyone lives in London.

 

[NishanKonar]

Its the UK social welfare program. In UK even if are not educated and have no job - you can avail welfare befits and survive. And that's what most British Pakistanis do. Leech off the benefits and stay lazy & jobless

But USA has no such social welfare. If you don't get good education and job - your life will be tough. You can see that with rise of homeless and drug addicts in USA. They are mostly those who screwed up in college and job and now has no stable income. No wonder in the US most Pakistanis focus more on getting into a good university and then get a good job.

All problems with British Pakistanis will be solved if UK govt scraps or reduces their social welfare scheme !

Another issue is the entry barrier. US has very stringent criteria on entry - only highly educated folks are allowed to come in . No wonder they are more cultured and educated and less prone to crime and gang stuff. UK had no such barriers till recently. So they let in the riffraff - who are more attracted to crime and drug gangs !

 

[NishanKonar]

I doubt that the financially most successful community in US, who are very well-known for their success in silicon valley and are now considered to be a very influential lobby at the Capitol cares about visibility in the eyes of a brit of pakistani origin.

If only you would care so much about your community, that isn't financially and education wise doing very well.

In the US - the Indian community is so influential and visible that many Pakistanis & Bangladeshis identify as Indian American !

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Spot on. If the man is thick in his brains he will always be delighted about size than accomplishments or ability to deal complex scenarios. To each his own to find solace I guess.

If a man is thick in his brains he might not even think about size or accomplishments. Why would he? He'd be too thick to give it any thought surely?

 

[Technics 1210]

Which is shocking to know because laws in US are way more conservative than UK.
Europe does lean liberalism compared to America

Disagree.

If we take the recent LGBTQ+ movement, this is imported from the USA into UK. It all starts in the USA under the guise of the 1st amendment and this very American freedom is the bedrock of radical Liberalism we see in the West today.

It's not just LGBTQ. decriminalisation of recreational drug use in the UK, including hard drugs, is also an imported view from liberal North America, in particular Canada.

Deregulation of financial services, also an import from the USA into Europe, during the 80s (and UK/Europe banks paid the price during 2008).

So yeah Europe is liberal to a degree, but strict processes and social constructs have changed due to the importation of radical Liberalism from the USA, and Canada.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

In the US - the Indian community is so influential and visible that many Pakistanis & Bangladeshis identify as Indian American !

Interesting. This is what I mean about inferiority complex, if US Pakistanis are so successful and popular, why do they need to pretend they are Indian?

Some narratives are crumbling rather quickly here.

 

[RajBan]

Its the UK social welfare program. In UK even if are not educated and have no job - you can avail welfare befits and survive. And that's what most British Pakistanis do. Leech off the benefits and stay lazy & jobless

But USA has no such social welfare. If you don't get good education and job - your life will be tough. You can see that with rise of homeless and drug addicts in USA. They are mostly those who screwed up in college and job and now has no stable income. No wonder in the US most Pakistanis focus more on getting into a good university and then get a good job.

All problems with British Pakistanis will be solved if UK govt scraps or reduces their social welfare scheme !

Another issue is the entry barrier. US has very stringent criteria on entry - only highly educated folks are allowed to come in . No wonder they are more cultured and educated and less prone to crime and gang stuff. UK had no such barriers till recently. So they let in the riffraff - who are more attracted to crime and drug gangs !

US has plenty of gang violence, murders, crime, probably lot more than UK.

 

[Technics 1210]

Its the UK social welfare program. In UK even if are not educated and have no job - you can avail welfare befits and survive. And that's what most British Pakistanis do. Leech off the benefits and stay lazy & jobless

But USA has no such social welfare. If you don't get good education and job - your life will be tough. You can see that with rise of homeless and drug addicts in USA. They are mostly those who screwed up in college and job and now has no stable income. No wonder in the US most Pakistanis focus more on getting into a good university and then get a good job.

All problems with British Pakistanis will be solved if UK govt scraps or reduces their social welfare scheme !

Another issue is the entry barrier. US has very stringent criteria on entry - only highly educated folks are allowed to come in . No wonder they are more cultured and educated and less prone to crime and gang stuff. UK had no such barriers till recently. So they let in the riffraff - who are more attracted to crime and drug gangs !

Nonsense.

UK has a long history of socialism, whereas North America does bot.

Nothing to do with Pakistanis, but if you want to play the race card, more Indians claim the dole in the midlands than Pakistanis, and, more Indians are deported than any other nationality from the UK.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I know these shows are made by UK Indians but I think the sentiment is applicable to the mindset displayed in this thread. Enjoy.

 

[NishanKonar]

Interesting. This is what I mean about inferiority complex, if US Pakistanis are so successful and popular, why do they need to pretend they are Indian?

Some narratives are crumbling rather quickly here.

Its not inferiority complex. Its the post 9 11 environment. Pakistanis were facing lot of discrimination due to religion- so preferred to identify as Indians

Also most Americans think every brown person is Indian - even if he is from Pakistan / Bangladesh / Sri Lanka. Its now umbrella term for all desis ! That's bcoz 90s% Desis in USA are actually Indian. Unlike say UK where Pakistanis / Bangladeshis are present in large numbers

 

[NishanKonar]

US has plenty of gang violence, murders, crime, probably lot more than UK.

Yes US has lot more gang violence than UK but Desis are not involved - unlike say UK where you have Pakistanis , Bangladeshis , Tamils and Sikhs in many gangs

Here in the US there are no Desi gang. Its mostly Mexicans and Blacks !

 

[MenInG]

Its not inferiority complex. Its the post 9 11 environment. Pakistanis were facing lot of discrimination due to religion- so preferred to identify as Indians

Also most Americans think every brown person is Indian - even if he is from Pakistan / Bangladesh / Sri Lanka. Its now umbrella term for all desis ! That's bcoz 90s% Desis in USA are actually Indian. Unlike say UK where Pakistanis / Bangladeshis are present in large numbers

Think you have now graduated from "I hate Imran Khan" to the "I hate Pakistanis - period" level.

Not sure what your actual agenda is but think it's easy to see what you are about.

 

[NishanKonar]

Nonsense.

UK has a long history of socialism, whereas North America does bot.

Nothing to do with Pakistanis, but if you want to play the race card, more Indians claim the dole in the midlands than Pakistanis, and, more Indians are deported than any other nationality from the UK.

Lots of reports shows that British Indians are highest earning expats in UK and Pakistanis / Bangladeshis are the lowest. Of course some Indians ( mostly Punjabis ) also abuse welfare benefits but its on a smaller scale compared to Pakistanis

 

[Technics 1210]

Yes US has lot more gang violence than UK but Desis are not involved - unlike say UK where you have Pakistanis , Bangladeshis , Tamils and Sikhs in many gangs

Here in the US there are no Desi gang. Its mostly Mexicans and Blacks !

More nonsense. Stop pretending there are no Indian HINDU gangs in the UK, there are plenty.

Proportionally there are more Mexicans and Blacks in the USA, likewise you will not see white gangs in India but plenty of Hindu gangs.

It is a simple case of demographics.

 

[Major]

I know these shows are made by UK Indians but I think the sentiment is applicable to the mindset displayed in this thread. Enjoy.

thread is about British and American Pakistans, but you are truing to hijack it to make fun of Indians. Nice

 

[NishanKonar]

Think you have now graduated from "I hate Imran Khan" to the "I hate Pakistanis - period" level.

Not sure what your actual agenda is but think it's easy to see what you are about.

I don't know how this related to Pakistan or Imran Khan.

This actually happened in the US post 9 11. Muslims were facing discrimination from white supremacists. Even Indians especially Sikhs faced trouble at times bcoz they were mistaken to be Muslims ( bcoz of skin color ). So many Pakistanis started identifying as Indian to avoid trouble

ps : As an Indian what Imran Khan does is least of my concerns. I just post stuff based on my reading of Pakistani politics. Just like many of you do on Indian politics. Not everyone is a hardcore Imran Khan Bhakt like you !

 

[Technics 1210]

Lots of reports shows that British Indians are highest earning expats in UK and Pakistanis / Bangladeshis are the lowest. Of course some Indians ( mostly Punjabis ) also abuse welfare benefits but its on a smaller scale compared to Pakistanis

Show me these reports.

Your attempts to turn this into Indian riches vs the rest of desis is futile.

As I said, more Indians abuse the social services in midland UK than any other desi demographic in the UK.

 

[NishanKonar]

More nonsense. Stop pretending there are no Indian HINDU gangs in the UK, there are plenty.

Proportionally there are more Mexicans and Blacks in the USA, likewise you will not see white gangs in India but plenty of Hindu gangs.

It is a simple case of demographics.

The only Hindu gangs in UK used to be Tamil gangs from Sri Lanka. Anyways I am not aware of any other Hindu gang

BUt in the US I have never heard of any Desi gang. Not even one !

 

[cricketjoshila]

In the US - the Indian community is so influential and visible that many Pakistanis & Bangladeshis identify as Indian American !

Yes. I have heard that story.

 

[MenInG]

Yes. I have heard that story.

I have never heard this story and just like all of you, I have many friends and relatives living in the States who have NEVER told me this.

 

[NishanKonar]

Show me these reports.

Your attempts to turn this into Indian riches vs the rest of desis is futile.

As I said, more Indians abuse the social services in midland UK than any other desi demographic in the UK.

Pls check this link. Its UK govt report. Indians are highest earning groups and Pakistanis are lowest.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/who-has-the-highest-and-lowest-household-incomes/

 

[NishanKonar]

I have never heard this story and just like all of you, I have many friends and relatives living in the States who have NEVER told me this.

It actually happens lot in USA Especially in places like Texas where there are lots of white supremacists who hate Islam ( bcoz of their racism )

 

[cricketjoshila]

Lots of reports shows that British Indians are highest earning expats in UK and Pakistanis / Bangladeshis are the lowest. Of course some Indians ( mostly Punjabis ) also abuse welfare benefits but its on a smaller scale compared to Pakistanis

You are correct.

The median household income of Brit Indians are near the top while Pakistanis and Bdeshis are near the bottom.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...ution/latest#by-ethnicity-after-housing-costs

Here you go.

 

[Technics 1210]

Pls check this link. Its UK govt report. Indians are highest earning groups and Pakistanis are lowest.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/who-has-the-highest-and-lowest-household-incomes/

You need to check it.

Data from 2017?

And read how HOUSEHOLD income is calculated. HOUSEHOLD income means income per house or address, and the report simply proves more Indians live in one house than any other demographic which bolsters household income.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I have never heard this story and just like all of you, I have many friends and relatives living in the States who have NEVER told me this.

Anyone in Texas? Houston or Dallas?

After 9/11 it became quite common.

Here is an article from 2010

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-timessquare-backlash-idUSTRE64655Y20100507

 

[SportsWarrior]

American, Australian and New Zealand immigrants tend to be more educated compared to most of Europe and Canadians. So, it is not very surprising that most immigrant Pakistanis in US and Australia tend to be less conservative. I have couple of Pakistani Neighbours in our subdivision and they are not so conservative except when it comes to Ahmadis.

 

[KingKhanWC]

As a Canadian, I've noticed this trend for a while - I feel that, based on my experiences online and the few times I've visited the UK on vacations, that British Pakistanis seem a lot more conservative, both culturally and religiously. Some may even say some extremism rises out of it at times.

Of course, one cannot generalise, and I'm not saying all British Pakistanis are like this, or that North American Pakistanis are never conservative. But it is just a trend I noticed.

Any reasons on this or personal experiences?

These are simply your experiences which are also based on what you've prob heard.

Its simply not true.

MORE British Pakistanis drink alcohol, do drugs, have intimate relations outside marriage, go nightclubs, are homosexuals, dont fast, dont pray than American Pakistanis.

USA is very big, the Pakistani community doesnt have any real identity there. Being a very loyal Yank doesnt make one more liberal.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

thread is about British and American Pakistans, but you are truing to hijack it to make fun of Indians. Nice

I specifically said this was not about Indians but applicable to the mindset shown by those who are trying to prove superiority based on certain aspects of culture and wealth. Watch the video and tell me it isn't appropriate.

Incidentally the video was made by British Indians so it's not me making fun of anyone.

 

[JaDed]

Interesting. This is what I mean about inferiority complex, if US Pakistanis are so successful and popular, why do they need to pretend they are Indian?

Some narratives are crumbling rather quickly here.

They don’t I haven’t met any that does, it seems like an exaggeration, at best they show Pakistani restaurants as serving Indian due to business demand.

 

[JaDed]

Anyone in Texas? Houston or Dallas?

After 9/11 it became quite common.

Here is an article from 2010

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-timessquare-backlash-idUSTRE64655Y20100507

Not the case anymore.. it happened for a while at best

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Its not inferiority complex. Its the post 9 11 environment. Pakistanis were facing lot of discrimination due to religion- so preferred to identify as Indians

Also most Americans think every brown person is Indian - even if he is from Pakistan / Bangladesh / Sri Lanka. Its now umbrella term for all desis ! That's bcoz 90s% Desis in USA are actually Indian. Unlike say UK where Pakistanis / Bangladeshis are present in large numbers

Watch the Goodness Gracious Me videos I have posted above. Why are the Kapoors or "Coopahs" as they like to call themselves trying to pass themselves off as genuine Brits? Is their inferiority complex also because the locals turned on them because of 9/11?

This is why it is educational to show such footage from the archives, it shows reality instead of embarrassing attempts at one-upmanship to boost fragile egos.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Anyone in Texas? Houston or Dallas?

After 9/11 it became quite common.

Here is an article from 2010

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-timessquare-backlash-idUSTRE64655Y20100507

It is pretty common. I have stayed in all those places and a lot of them identify as Indians. They won't go around saying they are Indians, but they won't correct you if anyone assumes they are Indians. Only after multiple enquires you will find out that they are actually Pakistanis. It also happened once when I was NJ. One of the new colleagues was Pakistani but I was not aware as I was not part of the hiring panel. Poor guy never told us he was from Pakistan until weeks later when we went to lunch at Veg Restaurant Saravana Bhavan in NJ He was clearly struggling with options he had, and we were quite surprised as most North Indians at our office had tasted south Indian food. Only then the conversation went towards where he was from. He was from Karachi and had spent last few years in NJ.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It is pretty common. I have stayed in all those places and a lot of them identify as Indians. They won't go around saying they are Indians, but they won't correct you if anyone assumes they are Indians. Only after multiple enquires you will find out that they are actually Pakistanis. It also happened once when I was NJ. One of the new colleagues was Pakistani but I was not aware as I was not part of the hiring panel. Poor guy never told us he was from Pakistan until weeks later when we went to lunch at Veg Restaurant Saravana Bhavan in NJ He was clearly struggling with options he had, and we were quite surprised as most North Indians at our office had tasted south Indian food. Only then the conversation went towards where he was from. He was from Karachi and had spent last few years in NJ.

Oh dear. Now speak up US Pakistanis, looks like the Indians of the USA are outing you as fake Indian wannabes.

Us UK Brits who are quite comfortable in our skins didn't even need to get into any one-upmanship games, your Indian pals in the USA have slapped you down with us not even having to leave our chairs.

 

[SalimBhai]

It's ironic because I always feel that so many threads on this subject are created expressly for the same reason. I always wonder that there must be something lacking in US Pakistanis lives that they need to compare themselves with some of the more insular Pakistani Brits to make them feel good about themselves. I think this stems from not having much of a visible presence in the US, so perhaps this gives them some sense of achievement where it isn't really acknowledged by Americans in general.

Pakistanis Americans are on the top of the food chain in the USA , Pakistani British are at the bottom.plenty of presence in the corporate world and academia . Not much in sports as American football or basketball the two major sports need bigger frames men. Also Pakistanis in the USA are .18 percent of the population and just got here. British Pakistanis are over 2 percent of the population and have been in the uK for 3-4 generations. I wish the British Pakistanis well in the future. But I speak for all American Pakistanis when I say nobody very says or has heard anyone say. “Oh look at those British Pakistanis. Let’s try to be like them”. Never.

 

[SalimBhai]

For all of their supposed superiority I can't really think of many notable American Pakistanis.

At least we have 3-4 powerful politicians here ( and proper Pakistani origin not like the Indian origin politicians that were actually chased of Africa and fled here).

Perhaps I am biased but apart from Shahid Khan the businessman I can't think of any Americans.

Most are in academia , or corporate world. Also they are .18 percentage of the population .

 

[SalimBhai]

I doubt that the financially most successful community in US, who are very well-known for their success in silicon valley and are now considered to be a very influential lobby at the Capitol cares about visibility in the eyes of a brit of pakistani origin.

If only you would care so much about your community, that isn't financially and education wise doing very well.

Indian Americans are at the very top of the list in the USA . Plenty of Fortune 500 companies ceo are Indian . Heavily involved in politics and media. So many news anchor are Indian decent. Also Indians and Pakistanis are a respected bunch in the USA.

 

[SportsWarrior]

Oh dear. Now speak up US Pakistanis, looks like the Indians of the USA are outing you as fake Indian wannabes.

Us UK Brits who are quite comfortable in our skins didn't even need to get into any one-upmanship games, your Indian pals in the USA have slapped you down with us not even having to leave our chairs.

Nothing to one-up. I just put down my experience. I personally feel US Pakistanis don't care as much about being Pakistanis as UK Pakistanis. Most US Pakistanis are doing fine for themselves and are pretty successful. They just don't seem to care much about being Pakistanis.

 

[SalimBhai]

to be honest, Indians are valued soo much in USA that they even for wroldwide remote jobs, 80% of the websites allow Indians to apply from India and get a remote job.

Barely any website offer remote jobs to Pakistanis and the only way for a Pakistani to get a remote job is through another company that outsources them and provide HR services to another company.

For anyone to sit here and claim that Indians dont get respect in USA, that person is just being biased and nothing else.

The reason why Indians can get a job in USA and earn in dollars or wage rates of USA is because of the Indians that moved there and worked their way up in USA and are now part of the BOD that can influence decisions.

Pakistans, be it USA or UK are the ones that are more invisible, and havent progressed that much compared to Indians

Pakistans in the USA are not that far behind Indians. We are catching up

 

[SportsWarrior]

Pakistanis Americans are on the top of the food chain in the USA , Pakistani British are at the bottom.plenty of presence in the corporate world and academia . Not much in sports as American football or basketball the two major sports need bigger frames men. Also Pakistanis in the USA are .18 percent of the population and just got here. British Pakistanis are over 2 percent of the population and have been in the uK for 3-4 generations. I wish the British Pakistanis well in the future. But I speak for all American Pakistanis when I say nobody very says or has heard anyone say. “Oh look at those British Pakistanis. Let’s try to be like them”. Never.

my experience is same. Most American Pakistanis don't associate themselves much with British Pakistanis.

 

[SalimBhai]

This isn't meant to be about Indians to be honest, it was just about a similar mindset, where because the the foreign citizens in question don't have enough confidence to boast about their value amongs their peers in the USA, they seek out smaller pastures where they can feel more assertive to announce their worth.

It is perfectly natural to be honest, if a man is small in height, he will brag about other qualities such as how smart he is, or maybe find someone who is 5'2 and call him shorty.

We all know you are just trolling as usual and you are not very fact based. Indians and Pakistanis are the same average height
https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/average-height-by-country/

 

[SalimBhai]

In the US - the Indian community is so influential and visible that many Pakistanis & Bangladeshis identify as Indian American !

I have never heard that . Never

 

[SalimBhai]

You need to check it that’s not how household income

Data from 2017?

And read how HOUSEHOLD income is calculated. HOUSEHOLD income means income per house or address, and the report simply proves more Indians live in one house than any other demographic which bolsters household income.

That’s not how household income is calculated. Also Pakistanis and Indians live the same way with multiple generations living in the same house. Also 2017? What have Pakistanis done since that that matters??

 

[SportsWarrior]

to be honest, Indians are valued soo much in USA that they even for wroldwide remote jobs, 80% of the websites allow Indians to apply from India and get a remote job.

Barely any website offer remote jobs to Pakistanis and the only way for a Pakistani to get a remote job is through another company that outsources them and provide HR services to another company.

For anyone to sit here and claim that Indians dont get respect in USA, that person is just being biased and nothing else.

The reason why Indians can get a job in USA and earn in dollars or wage rates of USA is because of the Indians that moved there and worked their way up in USA and are now part of the BOD that can influence decisions.

Pakistans, be it USA or UK are the ones that are more invisible, and havent progressed that much compared to Indians

Pakistanis in USA not invisible. They are clearly not as much in front as Indians, but they are there in various fields and pretty successful. I have met successful doctors, engineers and entrepreneurs from Pakistan. They are much closer to Indian Americans than British Pakistanis are to British Indians.

 

[SalimBhai]

American, Australian and New Zealand immigrants tend to be more educated compared to most of Europe and Canadians. So, it is not very surprising that most immigrant Pakistanis in US and Australia tend to be less conservative. I have couple of Pakistani Neighbours in our subdivision and they are not so conservative except when it comes to Ahmadis.

Pakistanis since birth are trained to hate ahmediya Muslims

 

[NishanKonar]

Watch the Goodness Gracious Me videos I have posted above. Why are the Kapoors or "Coopahs" as they like to call themselves trying to pass themselves off as genuine Brits? Is their inferiority complex also because the locals turned on them because of 9/11?

This is why it is educational to show such footage from the archives, it shows reality instead of embarrassing attempts at one-upmanship to boost fragile egos.

A British / US tv show / movie caricaturing migrants in unflattering light is a common trope in the West. Its like how Bollywood movies generally show Pakistanis as terrorists / villains. Or Hollywood movies showed Russians / Arabs as villains. In the 90s US tv shows had similar caricatures of Indians. Most famously as " Apu " with funny accent, But those days are now gone. Indians nowadays get normal roles in Hollywood movies without any caricature. A sign of greater visibility of Indian Americans in the US

In real life you will never see Indian expats trying to pretend to be British / Americans. I mean with our brown shin it wud be laughable to even do anything like that !

 

[NishanKonar]

Pakistanis in USA not invisible. They are clearly not as much in front as Indians, but they are there in various fields and pretty successful. I have met successful doctors, engineers and entrepreneurs from Pakistan. They are much closer to Indian Americans than British Pakistanis are to British Indians.

Pakistani Americans have a good reputation in medical field. Lots of doctors and surgeons in the US. Its now a common stereotype of Pakistani American community !

2nd part is true. Pakistanis in the US tend to have better relations with the Indian Americans. Same with Bangladeshi expats

A big difference between US and UK is thta UK has ghetto culture which US does not. So in the US communities mingle a lot more with each other. You don't have community wise ghettos like Bradford , Southall, Leicester in the US

 

[KingKhanWC]

Pakistani Americans have a good reputation in medical field. Lots of doctors and surgeons in the US. Its now a common stereotype of Pakistani American community !

2nd part is true. Pakistanis in the US tend to have better relations with the Indian Americans. Same with Bangladeshi expats

A big difference between US and UK is thta UK has ghetto culture which US does not. So in the US communities mingle a lot more with each other. You don't have community wise ghettos like Bradford , Southall, Leicester in the US

These are not Ghettos. Bradford is cleaner than most US cities.

Again, British Pakistanis are more into partying, drugs, free mixing etc. This isnt the 80's, things have changed now we are in 2023.

 

[NishanKonar]

These are not Ghettos. Bradford is cleaner than most US cities.

Again, British Pakistanis are more into partying, drugs, free mixing etc. This isnt the 80's, things have changed now we are in 2023.

By ghetto I mean 1 community huddled together in 1 place. Like Pakistanis in Bradford, Sikhs in Southalll, Indians in Leicester. In general there is little mingling between communities in the UK

But in the US you generally don't see such ghetto culture. Most places are diverse and communities mix and mingle more freely with each other

Like in the US Indians / Pakistanis are far more likely to marry outside their community than in UK. So many Indian American colleagues married to whites / Hispanics / Chinese. But in UK all my known folks are married to fellow Indians

 

[KingKhanWC]

By ghetto I mean 1 community huddled together in 1 place. Like Pakistanis in Bradford, Sikhs in Southalll, Indians in Leicester. In general there is little mingling between communities in the UK

But in the US you generally don't see such ghetto culture. Most places are diverse and communities mix and mingle more freely with each other

Like in the US Indians / Pakistanis are far more likely to marry outside their community than in UK. So many Indian American colleagues married to whites / Hispanics / Chinese. But in UK all my known folks are married to fellow Indians

20 years ago, sure. Immigrants moved into areas with other immigrants, this was not because they didnt want to mix but for ease. Cheaper housing, cultural shops etc.

If US was the size of the UK, it wouldnt be much different. If UK was the size of the US, vice versa

Not true there are hundreds of thousands of Pakistanis married outside of their community. More than in the US.

The major difference is the US does have more higher qualified professionals. This will change over time too, as the 3rd generation Brit Paks are educating their kids to a high level now.

I would say Brit Paks are more in society than US. Check the sports stars, singers, actors, politicians. US has nowhere near the amount.

 

[SalimBhai]

20 years ago, sure. Immigrants moved into areas with other immigrants, this was not because they didnt want to mix but for ease. Cheaper housing, cultural shops etc.

If US was the size of the UK, it wouldnt be much different. If UK was the size of the US, vice versa

Not true there are hundreds of thousands of Pakistanis married outside of their community. More than in the US.

The major difference is the US does have more higher qualified professionals. This will change over time too, as the 3rd generation Brit Paks are educating their kids to a high level now.

I would say Brit Paks are more in society than US. Check the sports stars, singers, actors, politicians. US has nowhere near the amount.

I agree one of the difference is that Pakistanis were mostly educated. When they got here . Also the welfare system did not help the UK desi . I don’t think size of the country has anything to do with it Glad to hear the next generation is willing to do better (. I don’t see that in my family in the UK unfortunately). Regarding presence . UK ***** are 2 percent of the population and US Pakistanis are 0.18 percent of the population. But they are making strides in all fields now, other than sports.