Why do British Pakistanis tend to be a lot more conservative than Pakistanis in North America?

[JaDed]

Not if you live in the bigger metro areas. The congestion is horrible now compared to 15-20 yeas ago. It was even better back then.

North Dallas, the traffic moves thanks to toll ways FM roads etc! Houston could be bad.
LA, Chicago are the worst I have been too.

 

[SalimBhai]

Lol someone is hurt.

NYC is one of the only regions where the Pakistani community is blue collar. NYC is where most immigrants first show up especially if of blue collar variety. Eventually they get the education, do well career wise and buy bigger houses in other cities and even NY suburbs and NJ which wouldn’t come in these statistics.

The simple fact is that the Pakistani American average household income and education level is far ahead of the average American statistics. And unfortunately no matter how you slide and dice the stats, British Pakistanis almost always are in the bottom 25% percentile except being on the dole. Hopefully it improves.

Yes it seems someone is hurt. Should be proud of your fellow countrymen doing well. It's not like it was handed to us,. HARD WORK is what got us there. And they only way is up.

 

[Stewie]

No I didn't do it because I'm a lazy British Pakistani paindoo and the New York figures were the first thing that popped up after 30 seconds of googling "Pakistani Americans" and going to the wiki page.

But sure keep pretending that going to America makes Pakistanis smarter somehow because it makes you feel better.

Why have the Pakistanis in New York not broken out of the cycle of poverty? Surely the spirit of George Washington should have descended from the sky and touched them on their forehead and opened up their eyes to the American dream by now?

Let us not try to shoehorn handopicked stats into whatever we want to arrive at a conclusion that we want. Its not fooling anybody. I have posted detailed numbers and a few others have posted reasons behind why NYC residents are an exception here not the norm.

 

[Big Mac]

I find it mildly amusing that someone from North America opened a thread to bash Brit Paks while we have stayed silent knowing that Amreekan and Kanaydian desis are decades behind us.

But let them carry on with their fantasies if it makes them feel better. It is Eid after all…

Nah bro you don't understand they are sooooooooo much more liberal that's why they repeat right wing talking points like if you wanna be rich all you gotta do is work hard

 

[rickroll]

Man here I thought it was because the wave of Pakistani immigrants who started arriving in America during the mid-60's were middle and upper class with higher education and therefore had a way easier time building on the wealth they had already accumulated but I guess I'm wrong America must be a magical place where lazy good for nothing immigrants go and are transformed into hard working, studious entrepreneurs and titans of industry who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps thanks to the incredible power of freedom and democracy.

Now for something totally unrelated let's look at Pakistanis in New York City.

First an older study published in 2004.

Now let's see how that changed over the next couple of decades shall we? Study from the same organisation published in 2019:

https://www.aafederation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/2019pk.pdf














I have no idea why they haven't been transformed by the yankee mindset and continue to live in overcrowded poverty with limited English skills and education.

Normally I would have said something about capitalism installing an all encompassing web of institutional and societal factors that create a self-perpetuating cycle of poverty but I have been informed by posters (Who must be smarter than I am because they live in America) that this is a tinpot conspiracy imagined by ignorant paindoos.

So I guess the only explanation is that there was a mix up at Islamabad airport departure terminal and New York keeps getting batches of defective Pakistanis that were supposed to go to Bradford?

Yeah, that's definitely it.

You deserve to be in one of those Arthur Anderson type consulting firms or maybe in one of those extreme media outlets.

1. Taking an irrelevant data set - Check (Pakistani NYers to all NYers while we are discussing UK Pak versus US Pak)
2. Taking a shoehorned narrow data set - Check (Pakistani NYers versus Pakistani Americans. Should we also get to the most ghetto part of UK Pakistanis and sample that data?)
3. Using that irrelevant narrow data set to suit your false narrative - Check
4. Twisting the words of others to push your false narrative - check (We say US Pak doing BETTER than UK Pak while you twist it into us claiming the US to be an absolute best utopia for all, which is obvious nonsense).

How much more clueless could you be or are you pretending to be clueless and trolling?

We are not saying US is some utopia making everyone successful, far from it actually. All we are saying is that Pakistanis in the US fare BETTER than the ones in UK.

 

[rickroll]

Very interesting share. I think there is a lot to dissect here.

This papaer is NOT comparing NYC Pakistanis with UK Pakistanis. This research is a direct comparison of "NYc Pakistanis" vs "New Yorkers" in general. and when I say New Yorkers, I mean residents of NYC not the entire state of New York, we are looking at a very very narrow sampling here but let us take a look at this research nonetheless.

According to this research conducted in 2015, 1/4th of the adults are not high school grads.. compared to the overall NY percentage of 1/5. Its not a very large gap (20% compared to 25%) but here is trhe surprising part.
37% of Pakistani adults had a college degree and that is higher than the overall NYC resident percentage of college degree holders (36%) this accounts for bachelors degree only.

Income wise, the gap is also not a whole lot $53,373 for NYC households vs $48,141 for NYC Pakistani households, (thats a gap of ~ $5,000/year) per household.

Now a vast majority of NYC residents of Pakistani origin is foreign born (66%) and that means they are not born in the US and are fresh immigrants finding their feet in the country so obviously they will not be as prosperous as the residents of the rest of the city who have been here for generations.

A more comprehensive and nationwide study of the Pakistani Americans can be found here and this covers the entire country:
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/publications/RAD-Pakistan.pdf

Some important poins to consider:


Educational Attainment

- The Pakistani diaspora population in the United States was better educated than the general U.S. population.

- Thirty-three percent of Pakistani diaspora members age 25 years and older had a bachelor’s degree as their highest educational credential versus 20 percent of the general U.S. population.
ƒ
- Twenty-three percent of the Pakistani diaspora age 25 and older had a master’s degree, an advanced professional degree, or a PhD, compared to 11 percent of the U.S.
population overall.



Household Income
ƒ
- Households headed by a member of the Pakistani diaspora had a substantially higher
median annual income than U.S. households overall. The median annual income of
Pakistani diaspora households was about $60,000 versus $50,000 for all U.S. house￾holds.
ƒ
- Thirty-three percent of Pakistani diaspora households reported annual incomes above
$90,000, the threshold for the top 25 percent of all U.S. households.
ƒ Eighteen percent of Pakistani diaspora households had annual incomes exceeding

- $140,000, the threshold for the top 10 percent of U.S. households. After India, Pakistan
and the Philippines tied for having the second-highest proportion of households in the
top decile of the U.S. household income distribution among the 15 groups in the RAD
analysis.

Good fitting response!

 

[Kroll]

The fact that you say decades behind actually proves the initial claim that British Pakistani lack education and evidently math and reading comprehension skulls

Ah apologies, yeah man all Brit Paks are illiterate uneducated benefit scroungers. Lets all hail the Amreeki and Kaanaydan Paks. The bastion of progression and illuminating the Pak nation abroad.

 

[SalimBhai]

Good fitting response!

Yes great response.

 

[Big Mac]

All it comes down to in the end is the mindset. The mindset here is to educate, educate, educate and succeed. I have family in England also. They don’t have this mindset. Always playing the victim card and believing conspiracies . Evident here from many not all uk Pakistanis also here on PP.

Just so we are all clear your stance is that Pakistanis in the US are financially better off than Pakistanis in the UK because American Pakistanis work hard while those in Britain are lazy? Work hard enough for three or four generations in America and you will be on top?

 

[SalimBhai]

Just so we are all clear your stance is that Pakistanis in the US are financially better off than Pakistanis in the UK because American Pakistanis work hard while those in Britain are lazy? Work hard enough for three or four generations in America and you will be on top?

Nope. You are just trolling. Please read all the posts and come back with something substantial and real. Stop trolling

 

[Big Mac]

Nope. You are just trolling. Please read all the posts and come back with something substantial and real. Stop trolling

It's literally your own words I just quoted:

All it comes down to in the end is the mindset. The mindset here is to educate, educate, educate and succeed. I have family in England also. They don’t have this mindset. Always playing the victim card and believing conspiracies .

and here :

It's not like it was handed to us,. HARD WORK is what got us there.

I'm just trying to see things from your point of view, it's been over 20 years since I lived in America maybe things have changed and you can help me understand.

Pakistanis in America have more money because, unlike their whiny British counterparts, they work hard. Let's accept this claim for the time being I won't argue with you over that.

What I'm wondering is this. Do you think they would have had the same levels of financial and academic success if they lived in the UK i.e. Pakistanis in America are just intrinsically superior to Pakistanis in other countries?

Or are they regular people who work hard and are lucky enough to live in the USA where hard work is rewarded?

 

[RexRex]

This thread is a bit like two bald men fighting over a comb. Yank or pom .. you're all confused desis, at the end of the day.

 

[Big Mac]

This thread is a bit like two bald men fighting over a comb. Yank or pom .. you're all confused desis, at the end of the day.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

Just so we are all clear your stance is that Pakistanis in the US are financially better off than Pakistanis in the UK because American Pakistanis work hard while those in Britain are lazy? Work hard enough for three or four generations in America and you will be on top?

Literally no one has said that

 

[Stewie]

It's literally your own words I just quoted:



and here :




I'm just trying to see things from your point of view, it's been over 20 years since I lived in America maybe things have changed and you can help me understand.

Pakistanis in America have more money because, unlike their whiny British counterparts, they work hard. Let's accept this claim for the time being I won't argue with you over that.

What I'm wondering is this. Do you think they would have had the same levels of financial and academic success if they lived in the UK i.e. Pakistanis in America are just intrinsically superior to Pakistanis in other countries?

Or are they regular people who work hard and are lucky enough to live in the USA where hard work is rewarded?

It’s very hard to pinpoint one reason, maybe it’s a combination of different ones. One can only speculate, but I would not want to write anything here with a definitive undertone because I would be lying.

I guess one big reason I can think of right off the top of my head is the opportunity factor. America is the land of opportunity and there are so many stories of people coming from all around the world with little to literally nothing and striking it big. Schwarzenegger, Shad Khan, Sergey Brin, Musk (he has a privileged background though), etc. So people get motivated to work to achieve their goals. Pakistanis are overall a very motivated people when they know they have a shot at something they will take it.


UK’s economy, on the other hand, has been in a state of decay. The opportunities are perhaps scarce compared to here. The overall size matters too. Too many markets here compared to the UK which is the size of an average US state.

Something else here could be the typical Pakistani trait of bher chaal. At some point perhaps some educated doctors and engineers discovered it pays well in the US and others of their professions followed suit or even looking at their success decided to take up those profession.

The UK Pakistani community on the other hand had initially consisted of blue collar workers brought over years ago to work in various industries. So it kind of became their thing. (Bher chaal at work again)
Of course the best amongst them always rise to the top so there are plenty of barristers, doctors, scientists and engineers and college professors there of Pakistani origin but I hope you get my point.

Last but not least the welfare system in the UK is a big big factor too. Enough has been said about it. I won’t say more. I personally have heard too many stories about how our people there abuse the system.

Our people abuse the system in the US too but it’s more “bare” and rudimentary. It much welfare on offer but whatever they have, our people do find ways to abuse it.

I hope my thoughts did not unduly offend anyone. I tried to be as respectful and objective as I could.

 

[Big Mac]

Last but not least the welfare system in the UK is a big big factor too. Enough has been said about it. I won’t say more. I personally have heard too many stories about how our people there abuse the system.

Our people abuse the system in the US too but it’s more “bare” and rudimentary. It much welfare on offer but whatever they have, our people do find ways to abuse it.

Benefits fraud, iirc, accounts for less than 1% of the total welfare budget according to UK government figures (Last i saw but this was a few years ago who knows it might have risen to a whopping 2-3% now) and when you count up all the different forms of fraud it is dwarfed by almost every other form of fraud including tax fraud. The same goes for the USA.

We should always be careful not to fall for right wing talking points.

 

[Stewie]

Benefits fraud, iirc, accounts for less than 1% of the total welfare budget according to UK government figures (Last i saw but this was a few years ago who knows it might have risen to a whopping 2-3% now) and when you count up all the different forms of fraud it is dwarfed by almost every other form of fraud including tax fraud. The same goes for the USA.

We should always be careful not to fall for right wing talking points.

My view is based on what I was told by certain people years ago. This may not be valid now. But it may have something to do with the discrepancy.
Your last line is absolutely hilarious though, because I am labeled a liberal loon, hippie, trans and gay loving something something by UK posters here. Haha. I didn’t want to tread that aspect of conversation because that would require a lot of time.

I’ll say this though: American Pakistanis are definitely liberal leaning politically, but a vast majority is also extremely conservative in terms of faith. So there is a duality here that outsiders can’t really appreciate.

Personally I would be the last person to fall for the right wing agenda. Perhaps we can research the welfare abuse aspect and discuss it at some other time.

 

[Big Mac]

My view is based on what I was told by certain people years ago. This may not be valid now. But it may have something to do with the discrepancy.

Benefits fraud is greatly exaggerated by the media and the politicians because it is something done by the poor. Tax fraud is generally done by the rich.

We all know tax fraud is far more pervasive and damaging and yet it gets relatively little attention compared to the demonisation of benefits cheats and tax fraud is prosecuted at much, much lower rates than benefits fraud.

Just because people see headlines and internalise them as being true does not change the fact that benefits fraud is nowhere near the top of the list of things we should be concerning ourselves with.

Public perception of these things is always massively skewed too, look at how people always think crime is increasing when it's falling, how people ALWAYS overestimate how many ethnic minorities live in their country, it's the same with things like benefits fraud which the public thinks is something like 30 times more prevalent than it really is.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/perceptions-are-not-reality

A new survey by Ipsos for the Royal Statistical Society and King’s College London highlights how wrong the British public can be on the make-up of the population and the scale of key social policy issues. The top ten misperceptions are:

4. Benefit fraud: people estimate that 34 times more benefit money is claimed fraudulently than official estimates: the public think that £24 out of every £100 spent on benefits is claimed fraudulently, compared with official estimates of £0.70 per £100

5. Foreign aid: 26% of people think foreign aid is one of the top 2-3 items government spends most money on, when it actually made up 1.1% of expenditure (£7.9bn) in the 2011/12 financial year. More people select this as a top item of expenditure than pensions (which cost nearly ten times as much, £74bn) and education in the UK (£51.5bn)[vi].

6. Religion: we greatly overestimate the proportion of the population who are Muslims: on average we say 24%, compared with 5% in England and Wales. And we underestimate the proportion of Christians: we estimate 34% on average, compared with the actual proportion of 59% in England and Wales[vii].

7. Immigration and ethnicity: the public think that 31% of the population are immigrants, when the official figures are 13%[viii]. Even estimates that attempt to account for illegal immigration suggest a figure closer to 15%. There are similar misperceptions on ethnicity: the average estimate is that Black and Asian people make up 30% of the population, when it is actually 11% (or 14% if we include mixed and other non-white ethnic groups)

It is the same in America where people think small minority groups are far, far larger than they really are:

In fact it happens all over the world:

This is mostly down to the media and politicians constantly exaggerating and fearmongering about the invading Muslim hordes ready to outbreed the naive white population and implement Sharia law once they have the numbers, how trans folk and drag queens are in every school and every library ready to turn your kid gay, and yes how every poor person is a lazy benefits cheat living the good life by stealing money from 'honest' people like you.

It's all stemming from the same right wing framing. The politician on the TV fearmongering about Islamic terrorists on every corner ready to enslave your innocent and pure white women and jihad the white men looks dumb if everybody knows Muslims are barely 1% of the population. The politicians and the business owners who want to slash benefits have a much harder job selling that policy if everybody knows benefits fraud is a small drop in a large bucket.

That's why so much air time and column inches are devoted to hammering this stuff into peoples heads, if you hear it enough times it starts to become true plus that old thing about the bigger the lie the more people believe it.

Your last line is absolutely hilarious though, because I am labeled a liberal loon, hippie, trans and gay loving something something by UK posters here.

Liberal and left wing aren't the same thing.

Oh and coming back to this line from your previous post:

I hope my thoughts did not unduly offend anyone. I tried to be as respectful and objective as I could.

It takes a lot more than this to offend me plus you've been posting here since forever and I haven't put you on my ignore list yet so you're probably alright.

 

[rickroll]

Just so we are all clear your stance is that Pakistanis in the US are financially better off than Pakistanis in the UK because American Pakistanis work hard while those in Britain are lazy? Work hard enough for three or four generations in America and you will be on top?

You keep saying "work hard" in multiple posts and I'm not sure if it is deliberate trolling. People respond to you emphasizing EDUCATION but you keep going back to "work hard"

No - It is not work hard it is emphasis on education!

Working hard without education is almost similar to running inside a hamster wheel and hoping to go someplace. Lack of education does not even give one an awareness that it is a hamster wheel and it gets you nowhere and hence the frustrations when others call it out.

1. Pakistani Americans emphasize education for both genders
2. Pakistani Americans (men and women) generally do not rush to marry their cousin back in Pindi or karachi in late teens or early 20s (more pronounced for women) but wait
3. Because they wait, and because they emphasize education for women, they equip themselves with better skills and degrees for job markets or for businesses
4. Pakistani Americans make the plan for advanced degrees (not just for men but also women) leading to higher end professional careers (medicine, law, business school, academia). It is more common to see women doctors or women lawyers among Pakistani American women
5. Pakistani Americans though being religious and adherents of Islam, do not tend to make religion the absolute focal point of their lives at the expense of education/knowledge/career
6. Pakistani Americans do not live in closed off communities and get to interact with people of varied backgrounds, thus gaining a broader perspective of what we can do in order to succeed as opposed to being stuck in an echo chamber of local Pindi boys.

Notice how many times I alluded to EDUCATION and not just some generic word like "hard work"? Who cares about just hard work if you are metaphorically running on a treadmill hoping to go some place (which is what lack of education can do)?

Notice I emphasized a lot on WOMEN and their education in my points above. Why? Because a community is measured based on the performance of the weakest members of that community. Arguably most South Asian communities are male dominated and so the true progress of British Pakistani and Pakistani American communities can best be compared by how women fare across both these communities.

I get the sense that many British Pakistanis actually know and realize these differences in their hearts but are too proud to accept that reality and hence want to keep putting up straw man namesake counter arguments.

 

[Big Mac]

You keep saying "work hard" in multiple posts and I'm not sure if it is deliberate trolling. People respond to you emphasizing EDUCATION but you keep going back to "work hard"

No - It is not work hard it is emphasis on education!

Working hard without education is almost similar to running inside a hamster wheel and hoping to go someplace. Lack of education does not even give one an awareness that it is a hamster wheel and it gets you nowhere and hence the frustrations when others call it out.

1. Pakistani Americans emphasize education for both genders
2. Pakistani Americans (men and women) generally do not rush to marry their cousin back in Pindi or karachi in late teens or early 20s (more pronounced for women) but wait
3. Because they wait, and because they emphasize education for women, they equip themselves with better skills and degrees for job markets or for businesses
4. Pakistani Americans make the plan for advanced degrees (not just for men but also women) leading to higher end professional careers (medicine, law, business school, academia). It is more common to see women doctors or women lawyers among Pakistani American women
5. Pakistani Americans though being religious and adherents of Islam, do not tend to make religion the absolute focal point of their lives at the expense of education/knowledge/career
6. Pakistani Americans do not live in closed off communities and get to interact with people of varied backgrounds, thus gaining a broader perspective of what we can do in order to succeed as opposed to being stuck in an echo chamber of local Pindi boys.

Notice how many times I alluded to EDUCATION and not just some generic word like "hard work"? Who cares about just hard work if you are metaphorically running on a treadmill hoping to go some place (which is what lack of education can do)?

Notice I emphasized a lot on WOMEN and their education in my points above. Why? Because a community is measured based on the performance of the weakest members of that community. Arguably most South Asian communities are male dominated and so the true progress of British Pakistani and Pakistani American communities can best be compared by how women fare across both these communities.

I get the sense that many British Pakistanis actually know and realize these differences in their hearts but are too proud to accept that reality and hence want to keep putting up straw man namesake counter arguments.

ah so Pakistanis in America are intrinsically better than their British brethren or do you think that maybe there could be some small correlation between higher education and socioeconomic status

 

[SalimBhai]

ah so Pakistanis in America are intrinsically better than their British brethren or do you think that maybe there could be some small correlation between higher education and socioeconomic status

Hahahhaha.I thinks that's what everyone is telling you. Either you are a troll or have issues comprehending.

 

[Big Mac]

ah so Pakistanis in America are intrinsically better than their British brethren or do you think that maybe there could be some small correlation between higher education and socioeconomic status

Hahahhaha.I thinks that's what everyone is telling you. Either you are a troll or have issues comprehending.

No the point, which I made right at the top of the post which got you so worked up was this:

Man here I thought it was because the wave of Pakistani immigrants who started arriving in America during the mid-60's were middle and upper class with higher education and therefore had a way easier time building on the wealth they had already accumulated

Pakistani Americans didn't arrive in the USA in the same situation as Pakistanis who arrived in the UK. They already had money and degrees when they got off the plane and just like poverty reinforces itself, wealth creates more wealth. That's why I brought up the New York Pakistani community that arrived in the 90s-00s and is more closer to the Pakistanis who arrived in the UK post WW2 and partition than those middle to upper class Pakistanis who emigrated to the USA in the late 60s and 70s. Why are they poor? Why can't they speak good English? Why don't they finish school?

For a thread about how American Pakistanis are supposedly so much less conservative it is very funny seeing posts from you and rickroll repeating fox news style rhetoric blaming poor people and minorities for their own poverty while patting yourselves on the back for being so open minded.

If higher education and increasing your income is such a mindset thing then how come black Americans and Native Americans are at or near the bottom when it comes to university degrees, household incomes, net worth, employment levels etc? Why don't they just go to university and become engineers and doctors?

 

[Stewie]

No the point, which I made right at the top of the post which got you so worked up was this:



Pakistani Americans didn't arrive in the USA in the same situation as Pakistanis who arrived in the UK. They already had money and degrees when they got off the plane and just like poverty reinforces itself, wealth creates more wealth. That's why I brought up the New York Pakistani community that arrived in the 90s-00s and is more closer to the Pakistanis who arrived in the UK post WW2 and partition than those middle to upper class Pakistanis who emigrated to the USA in the late 60s and 70s. Why are they poor? Why can't they speak good English? Why don't they finish school?

For a thread about how American Pakistanis are supposedly so much less conservative it is very funny seeing posts from you and rickroll repeating fox news style rhetoric blaming poor people and minorities for their own poverty while patting yourselves on the back for being so open minded.

If higher education and increasing your income is such a mindset thing then how come black Americans and Native Americans are at or near the bottom when it comes to university degrees, household incomes, net worth, employment levels etc? Why don't they just go to university and become engineers and doctors?

There is no way to prove that all immigrants to US from Pakistan already had money and degrees. But there is some truth to it that elites send their children to get education here and after graduation they try to stay here.

But there are also a lot of chain migration beneficiaries who may not bring much wealth or education at all.
[MENTION=865]Big Mac[/MENTION] I think the part about socioeconomic status and education variance between UK and US Pakistanis has been proven. If you want to research the reasons behind it, it will take proper socioeconomic research. We can just speculate. You are speculating as well that US Pakistanis just had more money and education from the get go.

But the thread is about a different topic. I think we have all lost track of that.

 

[Kroll]

Laughable thread, why is that when freshies go anywhere, they already think they're better than everyone else?

 

[Stewie]

Benefits fraud is greatly exaggerated by the media and the politicians because it is something done by the poor. Tax fraud is generally done by the rich.

We all know tax fraud is far more pervasive and damaging and yet it gets relatively little attention compared to the demonisation of benefits cheats and tax fraud is prosecuted at much, much lower rates than benefits fraud.

Just because people see headlines and internalise them as being true does not change the fact that benefits fraud is nowhere near the top of the list of things we should be concerning ourselves with.

Public perception of these things is always massively skewed too, look at how people always think crime is increasing when it's falling, how people ALWAYS overestimate how many ethnic minorities live in their country, it's the same with things like benefits fraud which the public thinks is something like 30 times more prevalent than it really is.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/perceptions-are-not-reality



It is the same in America where people think small minority groups are far, far larger than they really are:

In fact it happens all over the world:

This is mostly down to the media and politicians constantly exaggerating and fearmongering about the invading Muslim hordes ready to outbreed the naive white population and implement Sharia law once they have the numbers, how trans folk and drag queens are in every school and every library ready to turn your kid gay, and yes how every poor person is a lazy benefits cheat living the good life by stealing money from 'honest' people like you.

It's all stemming from the same right wing framing. The politician on the TV fearmongering about Islamic terrorists on every corner ready to enslave your innocent and pure white women and jihad the white men looks dumb if everybody knows Muslims are barely 1% of the population. The politicians and the business owners who want to slash benefits have a much harder job selling that policy if everybody knows benefits fraud is a small drop in a large bucket.

That's why so much air time and column inches are devoted to hammering this stuff into peoples heads, if you hear it enough times it starts to become true plus that old thing about the bigger the lie the more people believe it.



Liberal and left wing aren't the same thing.

The last line is very important. Not many people make that demarcation here. The gist of your post is “be wary of right wing propaganda”. American Pakistanis fight that battle everyday. Because of that and the liberal view of some of us here, I have seen a lot of childish UK posters here make insulting comments that we are tranny lovers, follow gay imams, etc. lol

We only believe in tolerance because it’s tolerance that’s needed for minorities such as us to thrive in foreign lands. We are plenty conservatives when it comes to practicing our faith.

Some UK Pakistanis become bashful because they have achieved larger numbers there and perhaps don’t feel the need to have a “minority rights backing mind frame” which is completely different from the conservative vs liberal debate, which happens to be a topic of this thread.

I believe it’s important to make that distinction. I am just coming back from a prayer at an Eid gah in the US in a stadium and the Azan could be heard in a two block radius on the loud speaker.

Hopefully some of the more sensible UK posters will understand the point I’m trying to communicate here.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

LOL, this thread is still going?

I always felt when we kept getting Indians like joshila bhai trumpeting about their higher incomes than Pakistanis, it was to cover up some deep seated complex in other departments. Now we have our US Pakistani brothers taking the same path. How embarrassing.

Guys it's ok, some people get the brains, some people get the brawn, some people get the money, and some people get all of it. Why does it matter to you how Pakistanis in the UK earn their money? What are you trying to prove?

 

[Stewie]

Mate, if they really thought that, they wouldn't need to shout about it or google statistics. It's a coping mechanism, I don't really want to think what it's to help cope with. Maybe the higher incomes still doesn't make them any more attractive as potential life partners unless we are talking LGBTQ....

Here we go again.
[MENTION=865]Big Mac[/MENTION], see what i was talking about? lol

FYI- the financial status of the two groups is not the topic of this thread. Perhaps we need to get back on track.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Here we go again.
[MENTION=865]Big Mac[/MENTION], see what i was talking about? lol

FYI- the financial status of the two groups is not the topic of this thread. Perhaps we need to get back on track.

It's not the topic of the thread yet you've been producing essays on income over the last few pages for some reason. Just go back and check your posts. I haven't read any for a few days so just going on what's been posted since I was last online.

Why do you care anyway if British Pakistanis are more conservative than US Pakistanis? Do you ever see us initiating such threads about how modern and liberal the US Pakistanis are? Truth is bro, we just don't give you guys that much thought. I always assumed you guys lived separate and scattered lives, didn't have much of a community, and maybe struggled to find halal meat, a bit like the British Pakistani founders first did. Beyond that we don't really give you guys much thought. For all I know those views may well be totally out of date and you all have thriving communities there. But it doesn't sound like it.

 

[Stewie]

It's not the topic of the thread yet you've been producing essays on income over the last few pages for some reason. Just go back and check your posts. I haven't read any for a few days so just going on what's been posted since I was last online.

Why do you care anyway if British Pakistanis are more conservative than US Pakistanis? Do you ever see us initiating such threads about how modern and liberal the US Pakistanis are? Truth is bro, we just don't give you guys that much thought. I always assumed you guys lived separate and scattered lives, didn't have much of a community, and maybe struggled to find halal meat, a bit like the British Pakistani founders first did. Beyond that we don't really give you guys much thought. For all I know those views may well be totally out of date and you all have thriving communities there. But it doesn't sound like it.

What makes you think I do? I shared my opinion on some things I felt were incorrectly presented. I am not the thread starter and quite frankly i dont care if they are more or less or ultra conservative. We have all sorts here in the US as well, in fact i am sure we are bout the same level of "conservative" as the UK ones, if you mean conservative in terms of culture and religion.

 

[SalimBhai]

Captain sahib. You have our support . Be who you wanna be. We don’t judge.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Last but not least the welfare system in the UK is a big big factor too. Enough has been said about it. I won’t say more. I personally have heard too many stories about how our people there abuse the system.

Our people abuse the system in the US too but it’s more “bare” and rudimentary. It much welfare on offer but whatever they have, our people do find ways to abuse it.

I hope my thoughts did not unduly offend anyone. I tried to be as respectful and objective as I could.

I'm just wondering, do you think it's only "our people" who abuse the benefits system? From what I've seen over here, plenty of people of all ethnic make ups do it, but maybe it's different in USA. Perhaps it's just "our people" who do it, but then I'd be interested to hear your views as to why that is.

 

[Stewie]

I'm just wondering, do you think it's only "our people" who abuse the benefits system? From what I've seen over here, plenty of people of all ethnic make ups do it, but maybe it's different in USA. Perhaps it's just "our people" who do it, but then I'd be interested to hear your views as to why that is.

We are off topic, man. You can start a separate thread on this subject.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

We are off topic, man. You can start a separate thread on this subject.

I'm just picking up your quotes and asking you to explain them. If I was introducing random nonsense then you could have some justification for saying we are off topic, but these are literally your own words.

If you don't want to go down that road then I suggest you pick your words more carfefully. Or come back tomorrow if you feel that today isn't the day you want to dwell on such stuff.

 

[Romali_rotti]

I recall having this discussion here about 10 years ago. I go back to what I said then from memory, the American Pakistanis are hard working and focus heavily on education and career. While the Britstanis (not all) but a lot of them want to live the village Pakistani lifestyle....

 

[rickroll]

No the point, which I made right at the top of the post which got you so worked up was this:



Pakistani Americans didn't arrive in the USA in the same situation as Pakistanis who arrived in the UK. They already had money and degrees when they got off the plane and just like poverty reinforces itself, wealth creates more wealth. That's why I brought up the New York Pakistani community that arrived in the 90s-00s and is more closer to the Pakistanis who arrived in the UK post WW2 and partition than those middle to upper class Pakistanis who emigrated to the USA in the late 60s and 70s. Why are they poor? Why can't they speak good English? Why don't they finish school?

For a thread about how American Pakistanis are supposedly so much less conservative it is very funny seeing posts from you and rickroll repeating fox news style rhetoric blaming poor people and minorities for their own poverty while patting yourselves on the back for being so open minded.

If higher education and increasing your income is such a mindset thing then how come black Americans and Native Americans are at or near the bottom when it comes to university degrees, household incomes, net worth, employment levels etc? Why don't they just go to university and become engineers and doctors?

Black people in the US were forced to come here, endured many years of slavery and social+systemic discrimination (discrimination specific against black people to this day). Look up things like housing discrimination, altering school districts in the south, extreme gerrymandering to reduce their political representation over multiple generations etc.

Pakistani people in the UK are economic migrants who have not faced the level of systemic discrimination or forced slavery like black people in the US.

Trying to equate British Pakistanis to the black people in the US is not just an apples-ranges comparison but also borderline trivializing of the historic struggles of black people in the US. I'm not even mentioning the typical lack of social benefits in the US compared to relatively generous social benefits in the UK.

Perhaps directly talk about why British Pakistanis do not prioritize education, do not give opportunities for women, and resort to an inward looking community with high rates of crime, believe in conspiracies even after 3-4 generations of reaping the social benefits and opportunities that UK has to offer ... instead of digressing or creating roundabout whataboutism of US black people?

Ok so the great grandparents or great great grand parents of British Pakistanis were poor economic migrants. It is 3-4 generations later now. They have had the benefits of access to opportunities in the UK, benefits through UK's generous social+medical+educational benefits (generous relative to the US) ... so why is their development still lacking? I hope to see a direct response instead of a mini graph filled essay questioning the validity of these research data, or needlessly attacking the people asking this question instead of a logical discourse.

FYI - Pakistani Americans are not saying they are all magically smarter. That is nonsense, and you probably know it too ... and are using a troll-ish comment to deflect/digress. I would say the reverse is true - meaning immigrants from working class backgrounds typically become smarter, more hard working because nothing was handed to them.

So given the same equal opportunities, British Pakistanis could outperform Pakistani Americans, if we go with the trope of British Pakistanis being poorer working class and Pakistani Americans being the royal "Syeds & Sharifs". The issue here seems to be the bad inward looking ultra religious social/communal structure among British Pakistanis that is proving to be detrimental to their own benefit. My 0.02

 

[Kroll]

I recall having this discussion here about 10 years ago. I go back to what I said then from memory, the American Pakistanis are hard working and focus heavily on education and career. While the Britstanis (not all) but a lot of them want to live the village Pakistani lifestyle....

Or we could flip this another way and say the North Amreekan Paks are envious of our well established community and now the cringe meisters are posting in threads to have a go.

Like the Capn' said, we don't really care and are moving along just fine. Its cringe the way the NAP behave, they wouldn't be out of place in a US version of Meet the Kumars (look up if you don't what it is).

 

[rickroll]

Or we could flip this another way and say the North Amreekan Paks are envious of our well established community and now the cringe meisters are posting in threads to have a go.

Like the Capn' said, we don't really care and are moving along just fine. Its cringe the way the NAP behave, they wouldn't be out of place in a US version of Meet the Kumars (look up if you don't what it is).

So the people with better education, better income, better women's rights, and better career are envious of those that have less of all of these (plus higher stats on religious fanaticism, women grooming, drug trafficking) just because the latter are higher in numbers? ... Right!!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Or we could flip this another way and say the North Amreekan Paks are envious of our well established community and now the cringe meisters are posting in threads to have a go.

Like the Capn' said, we don't really care and are moving along just fine. Its cringe the way the NAP behave, they wouldn't be out of place in a US version of Meet the Kumars (look up if you don't what it is).

My guess is they don't actually have much presence in the US, so in order to make themselves feel more important, they come here with their google surveys to make themselves feel better. It's not easy living in distant isolated communities, I've seen it personally with Pakistani families who moved out in the Highlands of Scotland, or way out west in Wales. It does have it's advantages as well though, no having to live with nosy neighbours, so when the children have left home and married out, at least you don't have to explain to anyone what happened.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Huge respect to the US-Pakistanis in the way they have courageously yet politely dealt with their relatively less educated British Pakistani counterparts here. They can get fanatical real quick.
US-Pakistanis have always been my favourite Pakistanis followed by Pakistani Pakistanis.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There you go US Pakistanis, another pat on the back from your Indian pals. Well done, great to see you on the same page because that is surely where you belong.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Huge respect to the US-Pakistanis in the way they have courageously yet politely dealt with their relatively less educated British Pakistani counterparts here. They can get fanatical real quick.
US-Pakistanis have always been my favourite Pakistanis followed by Pakistani Pakistanis.

How do you know the posters here are less educated? How do you know they get fanatical real quick?

A lot of assumptions from someone who brought the Butcher of Gujarat to power in your own country. If I was you I would stay out of this, it only makes the US Pakistanis look like chumps.

 

[Technics 1210]

Desi Indians and Pakistanis are officially known as 'South Asian Other' on all forms and applications. Stripped of their identity and roots before ink is on paper. Hence the lack of an identity. There is no such thing as a US Pakistani or Indian (Desi).

At least in the UK desis are officially attributed to their ethnic origin country - example, British Pakistani.

 

[Kroll]

Desi Indians and Pakistanis are officially known as 'South Asian Other' on all forms and applications. Stripped of their identity and roots before ink is on paper. Hence the lack of an identity. There is no such thing as a US Pakistani or Indian (Desi).

At least in the UK desis are officially attributed to their ethnic origin country - example, British Pakistani.

This lack of identity is eating the NA Paks.

 

[Technics 1210]

This lack of identity is eating the NA Paks.

The Amreekan government and system have grouped all South Asians under one colour, this has a knock on effect on Amreekan desi insecurities.

This is precisely why desi Amreekans cling to Amreekan liberalism, to seek that glimmer of hope to be identified as they hope to be.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

The Amreekan government and system have grouped all South Asians under one colour, this has a knock on effect on Amreekan desi insecurities.

This is precisely why desi Amreekans cling to Amreekan liberalism, to seek that glimmer of hope to be identified as they hope to be.

Lol someone’s coping.

What you’re stating is incorrect but even if it were true I’m sure American Pakistanis would be fine with crying in their nice houses and cushy lifestyle which they earned due to their higher education. British Pakistanis can be happy crammed up in their council housing and waiting for welfare checks.

 

[Stewie]

This thread has lost all objectivity and value. Funny thing is it was started by a Canadian and somehow the British Pakistanis feel like taking out their frustrations on American Pakistanis.

This should not be a mud slinging contest and yet that’s exactly what this has turned out to be like pretty much a lot of PP discussions thanks to some immature people that inhabit these once illustrious discussion boards. PP used to host a lot more mature and sensible discussions when I first joined years ago. This is not a knock on the admins and those running the boards.

I believe it’s a good time for some of the “older” ones to evaluate our participation here. Don’t seem to fit in with the “younger” crowd here anymore. The shutdown could not have come at a better time.

 

[Kroll]

This thread has lost all objectivity and value. Funny thing is it was started by a Canadian and somehow the British Pakistanis feel like taking out their frustrations on American Pakistanis.

This should not be a mud slinging contest and yet that’s exactly what this has turned out to be like pretty much a lot of PP discussions thanks to some immature people that inhabit these once illustrious discussion boards. PP used to host a lot more mature and sensible discussions when I first joined years ago. This is not a knock on the admins and those running the boards.

I believe it’s a good time for some of the “older” ones to evaluate our participation here. Don’t seem to fit in with the “younger” crowd here anymore. The shutdown could not have come at a better time.

Dude, you need to chill.

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[Stewie]

Dude, you need to chill.

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Haha, nice one, Mr. Miyagi!

 

[Bhaijaan]

How do you know the posters here are less educated? How do you know they get fanatical real quick?

A lot of assumptions from someone who brought the Butcher of Gujarat to power in your own country. If I was you I would stay out of this, it only makes the US Pakistanis look like chumps.

The US Pakistanis are a different class. They are the most highly educated and inclusive desi community living abroad. Even above Indians in many regards who have made a reputation of being ultra nerds obsessed with making their children win spelling bees whereas the US Pakistanis are almost as smart but with a laid back personality.

The British Pakistanis are at the level of Brampton Punjabis I’m sorry to say that. It hurts but it is the truth. It’s also backed by some historical facts. During the last 2 decades, the worst of the peyndoo lot from the remote villages of Indian Punjab went to Canada and from Pakistan to Britain. The major cities of India and Pakistan are both ahead of Manchester and Brampton today in terms of having a civilised gentry.

 

[rickroll]

The Amreekan government and system have grouped all South Asians under one colour, this has a knock on effect on Amreekan desi insecurities.

This is precisely why desi Amreekans cling to Amreekan liberalism, to seek that glimmer of hope to be identified as they hope to be.

This is so inaccurate and false just so you know.

1. US is a big country and many parts of it are actually more conservative than UK
2. There are many conservative South Asians in the US, which has been the contributors of conservative South Asians like Jindal and Haley (albeit both white washed) and recent players like Vivek.

I personally would love to see more Pakistani Americans across both the aisles.

You seem to always type "liberal = bad, conservative = good" and hence seem to type "Pakistani Americans = liberal" to go with your implicit narrative of "Pakistani Americans = bad". "liberal = bad, conservative = good" is your subjective opinion and I have no comment on that. What I'm correcting here is that US in general is more politically diverse and also more conservative than what you assume or portray.

 

[rickroll]

This thread has lost all objectivity and value. Funny thing is it was started by a Canadian and somehow the British Pakistanis feel like taking out their frustrations on American Pakistanis.

This should not be a mud slinging contest and yet that’s exactly what this has turned out to be like pretty much a lot of PP discussions thanks to some immature people that inhabit these once illustrious discussion boards. PP used to host a lot more mature and sensible discussions when I first joined years ago. This is not a knock on the admins and those running the boards.

I believe it’s a good time for some of the “older” ones to evaluate our participation here. Don’t seem to fit in with the “younger” crowd here anymore. The shutdown could not have come at a better time.

Very well said! I feel every discussion here is taken over or hijacked or steered by a handful of people with narrow knowledge/lens fueled by their personal bias and lack of education. It seems to have silenced many amazingly good and knowledgeable Pakistani posters from UK/US/Canada/Pakistan.

 

[Technics 1210]

This is so inaccurate and false just so you know.

1. US is a big country and many parts of it are actually more conservative than UK
2. There are many conservative South Asians in the US, which has been the contributors of conservative South Asians like Jindal and Haley (albeit both white washed) and recent players like Vivek.

I personally would love to see more Pakistani Americans across both the aisles.

You seem to always type "liberal = bad, conservative = good" and hence seem to type "Pakistani Americans = liberal" to go with your implicit narrative of "Pakistani Americans = bad". "liberal = bad, conservative = good" is your subjective opinion and I have no comment on that. What I'm correcting here is that US in general is more politically diverse and also more conservative than what you assume or portray.

It's not inaccurate, it's just the cold hard truth. Every Amreekan Desi on this forum supports radical liberalism. Go look and read at every thread, it's the yanki desis who come out defending radical liberalism.

Desis have no identity in Amreeka, this is why Pakistanis and Indians are grouped into one and why they end up patting each other's backs.

The Amreekan government denies desis their ethnic identity, but desis will embrace radical liberalism because one is free to identify themselves.

 

[Stewie]

It's not inaccurate, it's just the cold hard truth. Every Amreekan Desi on this forum supports radical liberalism. Go look and read at every thread, it's the yanki desis who come out defending radical liberalism.

Desis have no identity in Amreeka, this is why Pakistanis and Indians are grouped into one and why they end up patting each other's backs.

The Amreekan government denies desis their ethnic identity, but desis will embrace radical liberalism because one is free to identify themselves.

What exactly is "radical liberalism"?

I am sorry but you have a very skewed and ill informed view of what constitutes being left wing, right wing, ultra left wing, ultra right wing, liberal, conservative, etc. People who do not agree with somehow are all radical liberal people according to you. If Maulana Tariq Jameel disagreed with you, you would probably call him a left wing Biden loving radical liberal.

 

[SalimBhai]

Lol someone’s coping.

What you’re stating is incorrect but even if it were true I’m sure American Pakistanis would be fine with crying in their nice houses and cushy lifestyle which they earned due to their higher education. British Pakistanis can be happy crammed up in their council housing and waiting for welfare checks.

Imagine how much more successful they would have been if they were assigned their proper identity like the British Pakistanis. Laughable argument. Hahahahah

 

[Colorblind Genius]

I’ve read this a few years ago and unable to find the source now - so may be it’s a rumor?

“British youth of Pakistani origin is the biggest chunk of unskilled labor in UK”

How true is this?
Is there any such stat available?

 

[Technics 1210]

Desi Amreekans cannot accept the truth, because their reality revolves around good old fashion Amreekan materialism, which is why when they are asked to define their identity and values, they are flummoxed with pent up anger and pull out the money card along with other excuses.

Only today the US Supreme Court has ruled that race can no longer be considered as a factor in university admissions. Yes you read this right folks, university places in Amreeka were based on race and quotas - this is in a country that is considered to be the beacon of civilisation, justice, and equality.

Amreeka is one giant mess, a complete con of a country that lacks an identity as a whole, a purpose, a goal - but they are united on 2 fronts - war and radical liberalism.

 

[Stewie]

Desi Amreekans cannot accept the truth, because their reality revolves around good old fashion Amreekan materialism, which is why when they are asked to define their identity and values, they are flummoxed with pent up anger and pull out the money card along with other excuses.

Only today the US Supreme Court has ruled that race can no longer be considered as a factor in university admissions. Yes you read this right folks, university places in Amreeka were based on race and quotas - this is in a country that is considered to be the beacon of civilisation, justice, and equality.

Amreeka is one giant mess, a complete con of a country that lacks an identity as a whole, a purpose, a goal - but they are united on 2 fronts - war and radical liberalism.

And yet UK seems always available to lick their boots when they want. It’s an interesting dynamic.

 

[rickroll]

Desi Amreekans cannot accept the truth, because their reality revolves around good old fashion Amreekan materialism, which is why when they are asked to define their identity and values, they are flummoxed with pent up anger and pull out the money card along with other excuses.

Only today the US Supreme Court has ruled that race can no longer be considered as a factor in university admissions. Yes you read this right folks, university places in Amreeka were based on race and quotas - this is in a country that is considered to be the beacon of civilisation, justice, and equality.

Amreeka is one giant mess, a complete con of a country that lacks an identity as a whole, a purpose, a goal - but they are united on 2 fronts - war and radical liberalism.

Your post is the one rife with pent up anger. Is "Amreeka" supposed to be your attempt at insulting Americans? So you refuse to talk about actual facts plaguing the British Pakistani community - low education, high unemployment, low women's rights, religious fanaticism, drug trafficking, grooming gangs .... but you want to counter with made up words like "Amreeka", radical liberalism (whatever this means), some made up point about materialism (as if there is no desire for money in any other part of the world)?

I'm saying this again, I really wish I could see some of the other well informed UK Pakistanis posters add value to this thread instead of a select few that only add negative comments. This seems an unfair portrayal on the British Pakistani community and only reinforces the current perception that Pakistani Americans have.

 

[Stewie]

FYI radical liberalism can fall under socialist policies aimed at benefitting everyone… such as a single payer healthcare, welfare systems in place, extreme and vocal support of minorities, with favorable immigration policies, etc.

Seems like UK has all that. Singular healthcare system, welfare plans, crap ton of desis. Did I miss anything?

Let’s compare that with a strict capitalist society of the US. Minorities are much less in number. Crackdown on immigration, no welfare system, socialism is a curse word here. Etc.

Makes you wonder which country is “radical liberalist” state here between the two.

 

[Stewie]

Let us define “conservative” first. It would help.

 

[Technics 1210]

Lol. You have to love it when these guys complain about the level of discussion but are reduced to this sort of jibe when a few home truths start coming back their way.

I think you are the OP right? Might be better for you to focus on the answers to your own thread. Why are British Pakistanis more conservative than their US counterparts? There might be valid reasons in some cases, maybe not so much in others.

Is it a case of an Amreekan masquerading as a Canadian? If so, the intent and motive are clear given Canada is the beacon of Radical Liberalism.

Conservatism, along with society, is declining rapidly in North America; there is no comparison with the UK!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The US Pakistanis are a different class. They are the most highly educated and inclusive desi community living abroad. Even above Indians in many regards who have made a reputation of being ultra nerds obsessed with making their children win spelling bees whereas the US Pakistanis are almost as smart but with a laid back personality.

The British Pakistanis are at the level of Brampton Punjabis I’m sorry to say that. It hurts but it is the truth. It’s also backed by some historical facts. During the last 2 decades, the worst of the peyndoo lot from the remote villages of Indian Punjab went to Canada and from Pakistan to Britain. The major cities of India and Pakistan are both ahead of Manchester and Brampton today in terms of having a civilised gentry.

It clearly doesn't hurt as much as when other respective qualities and shortcomings of respective "classes" are compared, as this was answered already. I don't know anything about Brampton Punjabis other than they must be "peyndoos" in your own word, as opposed to weedy nerds whom I'm assuming you are comparing them to.

Might be best to raise that as a separate topic as this is a thread about Pakistanis abroad.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Let us define “conservative” first. It would help.

I think you need to take the lead here bro, where would you like to start?

 

[Stewie]

I think you need to take the lead here bro, where would you like to start?

Not my place, I can only speak to “what” a vast majority of American Pakistanis believe.
From my experience I can tell the understanding and definitions of these concepts vary from person to person and society to society.

I suspect the OP was thinking conservatism from a religious/societal POV and not political.

I believe, therein, is the problem. American Pakistanis have to consolidate their religious views with political views. Because as Americans, we are taught to be an advocate for equal rights for all. This is even more important for us as minorities because US has a long history with racism, discrimination, segregation, etc.

So politically we tend to lean liberal but from all other aspects we are conservative. It’s a balancing act.

This is the dichotomy that most non American Pakistanis don’t understand including homelanders, British, etc, etc.

The British Pakistanis do not have to lean into or buy into the liberal philosophy because they are a pretty healthy minority in the UK (27% of the population IIRC) so they have a more, dare I say, bullish view of things. Their interests are not compromised if they don’t ally with or sympathize with other minorities in the country.

Please note none of this has to do with education or social status. This thread loses objectivity if you go down that path. It has nothing to do with the topic.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Not my place, I can only speak to “what” a vast majority of American Pakistanis believe.
From my experience I can tell the understanding and definitions of these concepts vary from person to person and society to society.

I suspect the OP was thinking conservatism from a religious/societal POV and not political.

I believe, therein, is the problem. American Pakistanis have to consolidate their religious views with political views. Because as Americans, we are taught to be an advocate for equal rights for all. This is even more important for us as minorities because US has a long history with racism, discrimination, segregation, etc.

So politically we tend to lean liberal but from all other aspects we are conservative. It’s a balancing act.

This is the dichotomy that most non American Pakistanis don’t understand including homelanders, British, etc, etc.

The British Pakistanis do not have to lean into or buy into the liberal philosophy because they are a pretty healthy minority in the UK (27% of the population IIRC) so they have a more, dare I say, bullish view of things. Their interests are not compromised if they don’t ally with or sympathize with other minorities in the country.

Please note none of this has to do with education or social status. This thread loses objectivity if you go down that path. It has nothing to do with the topic.

I think this is fair enough, it's not that dissimilar to British Pakistanis who live outside the major cosmopolitan cities of the UK, especially those who live in more or less predominantly white areas such as Devon or Cornwall. Britain is not as disparate or disconnected as the US, so it's not difficult to build up sizeable communities here, whether that is Pakistani, Indian or Caribbean.

My impression is that in the US the Pakistani communities are much more isolated so tend to reflect the white viewpoint more. I am fairly confident of saying this only because I have lived in very predominantly white neighbourhoods myself, along with the white schools they come with.

 

[Stewie]

I think this is fair enough, it's not that dissimilar to British Pakistanis who live outside the major cosmopolitan cities of the UK, especially those who live in more or less predominantly white areas such as Devon or Cornwall. Britain is not as disparate or disconnected as the US, so it's not difficult to build up sizeable communities here, whether that is Pakistani, Indian or Caribbean.

My impression is that in the US the Pakistani communities are much more isolated so tend to reflect the white viewpoint more. I am fairly confident of saying this only because I have lived in very predominantly white neighbourhoods myself, along with the white schools they come with.

Pakistanis live mostly in big metropolitan areas of NY, CA, IL, TX, the eastern seaboard, etc. most of these areas are ethnically diverse so I fail to see how they would be swayed towards the “white” viewpoint.

For instance majority white Texas has big metro areas which are ethnically diverse such as Austin, Houston, etc.

The west coast is all full of immigrants. Same for the eastern seaboard. Pakistanis in other heartland states such as Nebraska, etc are very small in numbers.

I also think it’s being very “over simplistic” suggesting our views change because we live around and in the middle of “whites”.

I already explained because of “majority whites” we tend to align more with liberals because of their traditional standing up for minority rights.

But let us assume for the sake of argument you are correct. That would actually make Pakistanis more “conservative” because most suburban whites are your bible waving, gun toting, anti abortion, anti gay, anti immigration “conservatives”

So ideologically a right leaning Desi from Jhang actually has a lot in common with an American heartland white (speaking from sociopolitical standpoint)

Like I said it all depends on how you define or understand certain terms that are casually thrown around here.

 

[Bhaijaan]

It clearly doesn't hurt as much as when other respective qualities and shortcomings of respective "classes" are compared, as this was answered already. I don't know anything about Brampton Punjabis other than they must be "peyndoos" in your own word, as opposed to weedy nerds whom I'm assuming you are comparing them to.

Might be best to raise that as a separate topic as this is a thread about Pakistanis abroad.

There are of course great British Pakistanis as well. Generalisations are never fair. Neither are all Indian Americans bookworms. But generalisations often have some real basis.

The US -Pakistanis deserve all the appreciation in the world for being the ideal Pakistanis and there is no doubt that the biggest reason for that is their superior educational background and upbringing.

British Pakistanis often accuse US Pakistanis of identity crisis but it is they in fact who have given up their unique identity to getting mixed in the middle eastern gangs.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Pakistanis live mostly in big metropolitan areas of NY, CA, IL, TX, the eastern seaboard, etc. most of these areas are ethnically diverse so I fail to see how they would be swayed towards the “white” viewpoint.

For instance majority white Texas has big metro areas which are ethnically diverse such as Austin, Houston, etc.

The west coast is all full of immigrants. Same for the eastern seaboard. Pakistanis in other heartland states such as Nebraska, etc are very small in numbers.

I also think it’s being very “over simplistic” suggesting our views change because we live around and in the middle of “whites”.

I already explained because of “majority whites” we tend to align more with liberals because of their traditional standing up for minority rights.

But let us assume for the sake of argument you are correct. That would actually make Pakistanis more “conservative” because most suburban whites are your bible waving, gun toting, anti abortion, anti gay, anti immigration “conservatives”

So ideologically a right leaning Desi from Jhang actually has a lot in common with an American heartland white (speaking from sociopolitical standpoint)

Like I said it all depends on how you define or understand certain terms that are casually thrown around here.

I think from reading this it is impossible to make a comparison. USA, Canada, Australia etc are not countries which have longstanding cultural roots of the indigenous population, so in essence these are nations made up of immigrants from all around the world so there is no right or wrong viewpoint from a cultural sense. Not even in a conservative sense since it depends which state you are talking about.

What we see of the US is represented by mostly white, and of course English as that is the language of your country. We don't really relate it to other languages or culture such as Spanish, Latino or Navajo. So not really sure what we are supposed to be comparing here.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There are of course great British Pakistanis as well. Generalisations are never fair. Neither are all Indian Americans bookworms. But generalisations often have some real basis.

The US -Pakistanis deserve all the appreciation in the world for being the ideal Pakistanis and there is no doubt that the biggest reason for that is their superior educational background and upbringing.

British Pakistanis often accuse US Pakistanis of identity crisis but it is they in fact who have given up their unique identity to getting mixed in the middle eastern gangs.

No they don't. How many threads have you seen started by British Pakistanis about US Pakistani identity crisis? Not sure what you are talking about re middle eastern gangs either. What middle eastern gangs?

 

[Stewie]

I think from reading this it is impossible to make a comparison. USA, Canada, Australia etc are not countries which have longstanding cultural roots of the indigenous population, so in essence these are nations made up of immigrants from all around the world so there is no right or wrong viewpoint from a cultural sense. Not even in a conservative sense since it depends which state you are talking about.

What we see of the US is represented by mostly white, and of course English as that is the language of your country. We don't really relate it to other languages or culture such as Spanish, Latino or Navajo. So not really sure what we are supposed to be comparing here.

That was my question as well. What’s the yardstick here? How do we measure or define the “conservativeness”?

If the idea is to say British Pakistanis are still more in touch with the roots and lead a more close to home style lives in the UK, I would agree with it.

There is no right or wrong here. We were supposed to just compare the two demographics and share our thoughts.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

That was my question as well. What’s the yardstick here? How do we measure or define the “conservativeness”?

If the idea is to say British Pakistanis are still more in touch with the roots and lead a more close to home style lives in the UK, I would agree with it.

There is no right or wrong here. We were supposed to just compare the two demographics and share our thoughts.

Let me speak up to this one and I absolutely HATE to bring this example. I have NEVER seen this mindset with any other Pakistani decent migrant anywhere in the world.
And NO, I am NOT saying that EVERY Pakistani decent in UK is like this - but truly, this was a one off.

While shopping at a local grocery store in London we picked up a couple of PAANs.
We got back to our car and drove to the next store (Tesco, I think it was) to pick some more groceries. We pulled into the parking lot, and opened our paan wraps to chew on them.
As we stepped out, my host, the local British Pakistani Londoner, splash a large spit on the parking concrete and tossed the aluminum paan wrap in the air - while I was walking towards the near by trash can to dispose my paan wrap.

I was like, WHAT THE HECK did you just do? The trashcan is RIGHT HERE, only 5 steps away from our car - why would you spit and litter the public place? His reply left me in shock.
He pointed his index finger to the ground and said, "Isko humney Pakistan banana hai".

In Birmingham, I visited a supposedly religious gathering at someone's place. And noticed about 20 odd men and perhaps the same amount of women were reciting a certain wird. The goal was to do it 100000 times. Upon my inquiry, I was informed that we are doing some sorta of "Khattam" for our Pir Saab in Pakistan since he is our guide and our savior.

We drove by a small street loaded with litter and trash in Small Heath. My local host, proudly told me that all houses in this street are owned by British Pakistanis.
I said, but why there is SO MUCH spread out in the entire street?

He said, "ohh that's not a biggie the residents don't properly dispose their trash, they just toss it in the street. The city crew came to clean it up a few times but then they gave up. And he had a guilty conscious laugh - as if it was a moral victory of British Pakistanis against the whites.

Another incident I saw, the parents were more keen for a taweez and damm from a molvi saab rather than taking their kids to a doctor for medical treatment.

I felt tsunami type waves of JahaIut and paindupanna.

Another family I stayed with was a classical one - the dad used to work some part time job while the "hatta katta" son and the healthy mother were sucking on social welfare.

They all could find jobs and work hard to make an honest living and pay full taxes to become a positive contributing members of the British society- but none actually wanted it.

I am 100% sure not all are like that but it was pretty evident in a few desi communities that I have visited over the years.


IMO, what I noticed is that in the name of practicing conservatism and preserving self identity, there is a resistance towards merging and assimilating into the main British social flow - BEECAUSE it requires passion and hard work in pursuit of high education, academic excellence and entrepreneurship. (again, not all are like that I am sure things are changing for good.)

But looks like the kind of conservatism and self identity some of them have supposedly preserved, is just an excuse to not take benefit of the opportunities that the British society provides.
Putting a Burka on your women, and growing a long beard - and then unfairly sucking on the social welfare - is more of a hypocrisy rather than preserving self identity and conservatism.

 

[rickroll]

Let me speak up to this one and I absolutely HATE to bring this example. I have NEVER seen this mindset with any other Pakistani decent migrant anywhere in the world.
And NO, I am NOT saying that EVERY Pakistani decent in UK is like this - but truly, this was a one off.

While shopping at a local grocery store in London we picked up a couple of PAANs.
We got back to our car and drove to the next store (Tesco, I think it was) to pick some more groceries. We pulled into the parking lot, and opened our paan wraps to chew on them.
As we stepped out, my host, the local British Pakistani Londoner, splash a large spit on the parking concrete and tossed the aluminum paan wrap in the air - while I was walking towards the near by trash can to dispose my paan wrap.

I was like, WHAT THE HECK did you just do? The trashcan is RIGHT HERE, only 5 steps away from our car - why would you spit and litter the public place? His reply left me in shock.
He pointed his index finger to the ground and said, "Isko humney Pakistan banana hai".

In Birmingham, I visited a supposedly religious gathering at someone's place. And noticed about 20 odd men and perhaps the same amount of women were reciting a certain wird. The goal was to do it 100000 times. Upon my inquiry, I was informed that we are doing some sorta of "Khattam" for our Pir Saab in Pakistan since he is our guide and our savior.

We drove by a small street loaded with litter and trash in Small Heath. My local host, proudly told me that all houses in this street are owned by British Pakistanis.
I said, but why there is SO MUCH spread out in the entire street?

He said, "ohh that's not a biggie the residents don't properly dispose their trash, they just toss it in the street. The city crew came to clean it up a few times but then they gave up. And he had a guilty conscious laugh - as if it was a moral victory of British Pakistanis against the whites.

Another incident I saw, the parents were more keen for a taweez and damm from a molvi saab rather than taking their kids to a doctor for medical treatment.

I felt tsunami type waves of JahaIut and paindupanna.

Another family I stayed with was a classical one - the dad used to work some part time job while the "hatta katta" son and the healthy mother were sucking on social welfare.

They all could find jobs and work hard to make an honest living and pay full taxes to become a positive contributing members of the British society- but none actually wanted it.

I am 100% sure not all are like that but it was pretty evident in a few desi communities that I have visited over the years.


IMO, what I noticed is that in the name of practicing conservatism and preserving self identity, there is a resistance towards merging and assimilating into the main British social flow - BEECAUSE it requires passion and hard work in pursuit of high education, academic excellence and entrepreneurship. (again, not all are like that I am sure things are changing for good.)

But looks like the kind of conservatism and self identity some of them have supposedly preserved, is just an excuse to not take benefit of the opportunities that the British society provides.
Putting a Burka on your women, and growing a long beard - and then unfairly sucking on the social welfare - is more of a hypocrisy rather than preserving self identity and conservatism.

Great post. Thank you for sharing this.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Let me speak up to this one and I absolutely HATE to bring this example. I have NEVER seen this mindset with any other Pakistani decent migrant anywhere in the world.
And NO, I am NOT saying that EVERY Pakistani decent in UK is like this - but truly, this was a one off.

While shopping at a local grocery store in London we picked up a couple of PAANs.
We got back to our car and drove to the next store (Tesco, I think it was) to pick some more groceries. We pulled into the parking lot, and opened our paan wraps to chew on them.
As we stepped out, my host, the local British Pakistani Londoner, splash a large spit on the parking concrete and tossed the aluminum paan wrap in the air - while I was walking towards the near by trash can to dispose my paan wrap.

I was like, WHAT THE HECK did you just do? The trashcan is RIGHT HERE, only 5 steps away from our car - why would you spit and litter the public place? His reply left me in shock.
He pointed his index finger to the ground and said, "Isko humney Pakistan banana hai".

In Birmingham, I visited a supposedly religious gathering at someone's place. And noticed about 20 odd men and perhaps the same amount of women were reciting a certain wird. The goal was to do it 100000 times. Upon my inquiry, I was informed that we are doing some sorta of "Khattam" for our Pir Saab in Pakistan since he is our guide and our savior.

We drove by a small street loaded with litter and trash in Small Heath. My local host, proudly told me that all houses in this street are owned by British Pakistanis.
I said, but why there is SO MUCH spread out in the entire street?

He said, "ohh that's not a biggie the residents don't properly dispose their trash, they just toss it in the street. The city crew came to clean it up a few times but then they gave up. And he had a guilty conscious laugh - as if it was a moral victory of British Pakistanis against the whites.

Another incident I saw, the parents were more keen for a taweez and damm from a molvi saab rather than taking their kids to a doctor for medical treatment.

I felt tsunami type waves of JahaIut and paindupanna.

Another family I stayed with was a classical one - the dad used to work some part time job while the "hatta katta" son and the healthy mother were sucking on social welfare.

They all could find jobs and work hard to make an honest living and pay full taxes to become a positive contributing members of the British society- but none actually wanted it.

I am 100% sure not all are like that but it was pretty evident in a few desi communities that I have visited over the years.


IMO, what I noticed is that in the name of practicing conservatism and preserving self identity, there is a resistance towards merging and assimilating into the main British social flow - BEECAUSE it requires passion and hard work in pursuit of high education, academic excellence and entrepreneurship. (again, not all are like that I am sure things are changing for good.)

But looks like the kind of conservatism and self identity some of them have supposedly preserved, is just an excuse to not take benefit of the opportunities that the British society provides.
Putting a Burka on your women, and growing a long beard - and then unfairly sucking on the social welfare - is more of a hypocrisy rather than preserving self identity and conservatism.

That's got nothing to do with being Pakistan or British, it's pure ignorance and typical behaviour of those who live in lower income areas. You see the same in many refugee areas where you get Romanians or Albanians newly arrived, can't speak about Africans since I haven't come across those so much.

Actually even more shameful, you see similar in low income areas where the population is white Brits who are native to the area. There is a lack of civic pride, possibly fuelled by resentment or worthlessness.

Just as an aside, paan chewing is a disgusting habit anyway, it has no place in a first world country.