Why do British Pakistanis tend to be a lot more conservative than Pakistanis in North America?

[NishanKonar]

20 years ago, sure. Immigrants moved into areas with other immigrants, this was not because they didnt want to mix but for ease. Cheaper housing, cultural shops etc.

If US was the size of the UK, it wouldnt be much different. If UK was the size of the US, vice versa

Not true there are hundreds of thousands of Pakistanis married outside of their community. More than in the US.

The major difference is the US does have more higher qualified professionals. This will change over time too, as the 3rd generation Brit Paks are educating their kids to a high level now.

I would say Brit Paks are more in society than US. Check the sports stars, singers, actors, politicians. US has nowhere near the amount.

Thats true. British Pakistanis are lot more in numbers than Pakistani Americans. Which is why British Pakistanis are more involved in politics. Also in the US there is little scope for non Christian / Jewish politicians beyond a point. While British are less bother about religion. No way a Hindu like Rishi sUnak can become President of US or even a governor of a state. Americans only vote for Christians for top posts. This explains why British Pakistanis are doing better in politics

Regarding sports / entertainment - to be very honest apart from Riz Ahmad and Amir Khan there is nothing much to brag. You can say Zayn Malik but the guy himself generally stays away from British Pakistanis

 

[KingKhanWC]

Thats true. British Pakistanis are lot more in numbers than Pakistani Americans. Which is why British Pakistanis are more involved in politics. Also in the US there is little scope for non Christian / Jewish politicians beyond a point. While British are less bother about religion. No way a Hindu like Rishi sUnak can become President of US or even a governor of a state. Americans only vote for Christians for top posts. This explains why British Pakistanis are doing better in politics

Regarding sports / entertainment - to be very honest apart from Riz Ahmad and Amir Khan there is nothing much to brag. You can say Zayn Malik but the guy himself generally stays away from British Pakistanis

Obama was elected, he isnt your avg white christian leader. There are other Indian politicians, none who I rate at all but Kamala is also of Indian origin. But you are prob right, they wont ever make it to President. If you look at the UK, we have Rishi PM, Sadiq Khan Mayor of London and Hamza Yusuf leader of the Scots. None I admire but shows British Pakistanis have a far larger influence in politics compared to US Paks.

In Sports you will see many Brit Pakistanis. Amir Khan is the most famous but there are at least another 3 right now who can become World Champions. Plenty in cricket, but you will see a rise in MMA, Football in the coming years. Entertainment there are plenty too, even Guz Khan is in movies now. US has none I can think of.

The notion of more liberals isnt true and isnt important, as this liberal today are frankly nutters who should be in a secure facility.

 

[TSA321]

Also it is well known that many British Pakistani youths, are well, troublemakers with what 20 percent of the criminals in jail being of Pakistani origin or something? And as somebody pointed out, even the 3rd, 4th gen Brit Pakistanis aren’t known to be much into education/white collar jobs. The difference in the population subsets is stark.

How can 20% of the people in jail be of Pakistani origin when only 8% of prisoners in the UK are ethnically Asian? Lay off the meds before posting.

 

[rickroll]

I think some opinions expressed in this thread need a serious fact check and they may just be anecdotal from 1-2 personal experience or one off news articles from years ago.

1. I have not heard of any Pakistani American pretending to be Indian and nor have people from my circles. Not sure why the Indians and the British Pakistanis in this thread seem to mention that (I think it was originally stated here by an Indian poster. It was an isolated incident years ago or you or your friend saw/heard a case (anecdotal). Yes some Pakistani restaurants brand themselves as "Pakistani Indian" but that is for the closeness of the cuisine and cannot be extrapolated into an identity crisis of an entire community in the country.

2. Regarding who is more accomplished - how are we defining accomplishments here? Education/career/income or political representation? If it is education/career/income than Pakistani Americans rate higher than even whites in the US. This is due to the nature of the immigrants into the country as someone else pointed out. British Pakistanis are at the bottom in the UK with no meaningful progress yet.
If it is political power then British Pakistanis definitely have more of that by virtue of higher numbers, and the longer history between UK and South Asia.

3. Social integration - Pakistani Americans have more social integration than British Pakistanis. I think this is also a function of education and the nature of the immigrants. Mind you, social integration does not just mean drinking, drugs, partying, or illicit relationships. It is the overall behavior and social standing . Things like grooming gangs are pretty much non-existent among Pakistani Americans but seems to be the norm among British Pakistanis.

4 To the Indians in this thread who keep harping about lacking of any Indian crime gangs in the UK or US, perhaps look at the notorious Indian crime gangs in Canada and stay grounded?

5. Accomplishments - Adjusted for percentage of population, I would argue Pakistani Americans are more accomplished. To those wondering who are the prominent Pakistani Americans, maybe see this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Americans. Again, this is not to diss British Pakistanis because it is an unfair comparison. In the US, only educated rich Pakistanis get to move here and certainly have a leg up. In the UK it is struggling segment of the population where survival is a higher priority than education so it is natural to see inward looking communities that are hyper-conservative, less rights for women, and with more children (as all poor families go). British Pakistanis have not had the means to become better and it is not purely their fault since they never had a head start (like Pakistani Americans) from the get go.

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

I have a lot of respect for Uk Pakistanis for staying true to their roots and culture . I feel like this gets lost in US Pakistani's when trying to assimilate . Uk Pakistanis have other problem but they got this one right. American Pakistanis are more about religion than culture I feel .

 

[SalimBhai]

I think some opinions expressed in this thread need a serious fact check and they may just be anecdotal from 1-2 personal experience or one off news articles from years ago.

1. I have not heard of any Pakistani American pretending to be Indian and nor have people from my circles. Not sure why the Indians and the British Pakistanis in this thread seem to mention that (I think it was originally stated here by an Indian poster. It was an isolated incident years ago or you or your friend saw/heard a case (anecdotal). Yes some Pakistani restaurants brand themselves as "Pakistani Indian" but that is for the closeness of the cuisine and cannot be extrapolated into an identity crisis of an entire community in the country.

2. Regarding who is more accomplished - how are we defining accomplishments here? Education/career/income or political representation? If it is education/career/income than Pakistani Americans rate higher than even whites in the US. This is due to the nature of the immigrants into the country as someone else pointed out. British Pakistanis are at the bottom in the UK with no meaningful progress yet.
If it is political power then British Pakistanis definitely have more of that by virtue of higher numbers, and the longer history between UK and South Asia.

3. Social integration - Pakistani Americans have more social integration than British Pakistanis. I think this is also a function of education and the nature of the immigrants. Mind you, social integration does not just mean drinking, drugs, partying, or illicit relationships. It is the overall behavior and social standing . Things like grooming gangs are pretty much non-existent among Pakistani Americans but seems to be the norm among British Pakistanis.

4 To the Indians in this thread who keep harping about lacking of any Indian crime gangs in the UK or US, perhaps look at the notorious Indian crime gangs in Canada and stay grounded?

5. Accomplishments - Adjusted for percentage of population, I would argue Pakistani Americans are more accomplished. To those wondering who are the prominent Pakistani Americans, maybe see this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Americans. Again, this is not to diss British Pakistanis because it is an unfair comparison. In the US, only educated rich Pakistanis get to move here and certainly have a leg up. In the UK it is struggling segment of the population where survival is a higher priority than education so it is natural to see inward looking communities that are hyper-conservative, less rights for women, and with more children (as all poor families go). British Pakistanis have not had the means to become better and it is not purely their fault since they never had a head start (like Pakistani Americans) from the get go.

Great post. However I disagree on the last part. They have been there 4 generations so they have had enough time . It’s the attitude . You can see that in the uk posters here also. But as someone said here earlier, now they are more education focused. Hope that’s true . I have not checked

 

[rickroll]

I have a lot of respect for Uk Pakistanis for staying true to their roots and culture . I feel like this gets lost in US Pakistani's when trying to assimilate . Uk Pakistanis have other problem but they got this one right. American Pakistanis are more about religion than culture I feel .

Many questions pop up here to challenge the perception of "it is better to stay true to your roots and culture" narrative ...

How do you define roots and culture? Reading/writing Urdu, watching Pakistani films or listening to Pakistani music? Eating mostly Pakistani cuisine? higher levels of religious adherence? More conservative? Only interacting with others in the Pakistani community? Mostly marrying cousins per the norm in the motherland? Objectifying women? Denying rights for women including those in your own family? ...

As you can see above, roots and culture is a spectrum, so where do you draw the line for meaningful adoption? Also bear in mind that meaningful adoption can change with time.

How can we also say only adherence to Pakistani culture is good regardless of where we live? Isn't that a myopic approach to things? Shouldn't the best path be adherence to good aspects of both cultures you are exposed to, for the benefit of yourself and your family?

 

[rickroll]

Great post. However I disagree on the last part. They have been there 4 generations so they have had enough time . It’s the attitude . You can see that in the uk posters here also. But as someone said here earlier, now they are more education focused. Hope that’s true . I have not checked

Interesting point about 4 generations. British Pakistanis have more continuous immigration from Pakistan (especially from poorer uneducated sections of the society). So now it makes me wonder if their overall data is diluted in terms of education and income accomplishments because they are seen as one monolith entity.

Will 4th gen British Pakistanis have higher rates of education for both genders and higher income levels than 3rd gen, and so on and so forth until 1st gen and fresh immigrants? I would be curious to see data points regarding this.

 

[SalimBhai]

Interesting point about 4 generations. British Pakistanis have more continuous immigration from Pakistan (especially from poorer uneducated sections of the society). So now it makes me wonder if their overall data is diluted in terms of education and income accomplishments because they are seen as one monolith entity.

Will 4th gen British Pakistanis have higher rates of education for both genders and higher income levels than 3rd gen, and so on and so forth until 1st gen and fresh immigrants? I would be curious to see data points regarding this.

I don’t know if there is data on that. Sorry I am not an economist or a sociologist. . I have a very big family. Most live in the USA , few in Australia and the rest in uk We all had the same grand or great grand parents . Humble beginnings ( farmers mostly ) the first ones to leave were the ones to the UK. If you look at us. They are the least accomplished. Even less than the very few who never left Pakistan. The ones in usa and Australia have done extremely well. My mother is very close to the ones in the UK so that makes me know them very well . The new generation ( 3rd maybe) are just for a lack of a better word “lame”. Not ambitious and believing in conspiracies and even more conservative than the ones in Punjab . But yes would like to look at some real data

 

[TSA321]

BUt in the US I have never heard of any Desi gang. Not even one !

You aren't looking hard enough

https://www.latimes.com/california/...ckton-sacramento-county?utm_source=reddit.com

Now that I think of it, the UK is probably the only Anglophone country where there are more Pakistani gangs than Indian ones.

 

[TSA321]

Interesting point about 4 generations. British Pakistanis have more continuous immigration from Pakistan (especially from poorer uneducated sections of the society). So now it makes me wonder if their overall data is diluted in terms of education and income accomplishments because they are seen as one monolith entity.

Will 4th gen British Pakistanis have higher rates of education for both genders and higher income levels than 3rd gen, and so on and so forth until 1st gen and fresh immigrants? I would be curious to see data points regarding this.

Most British Pakistanis aren't 4th gen. The average British Pakistani is still 1st or 2nd gen. I'd say most of the generation aged 0-18 are a mixture of 3rd and 2nd gen. The younger gen are far more likely to go onto University than their White British counterparts and overall the community is fast catching up to the average in terms of education level. I'm sure the results of the 2021 census will show British Pakistanis having a higher % of degrees than White Brits.

 

[TSA321]

For everyone confidently claiming British Pakistanis are at 'the bottom' of the UK, would this image make you reconsider your thoughts?

<a href="https://ibb.co/kMBKzt1"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/XVLX6q8/mt-Yd-Zd8i-D4-Z1-AHw-I3-VGw-FUZEz-Hijuc9-GN-UUBidz-SS8.webp" alt="mt-Yd-Zd8i-D4-Z1-AHw-I3-VGw-FUZEz-Hijuc9-GN-UUBidz-SS8" border="0"></a>

It'd be interesting to see where Pakistani Americans stand in terms of Home ownership compared to other groups.

 

[TSA321]

American Pakistanis are highly educated (mostly doctors

There's no shortage of Pakistani origin doctors in the UK too - so much so that Khan is the most common surname for doctors here!
See - not as black and white as you all think.

 

[SalimBhai]

Housing has always been a big point for desis in uk usa or I assume other places also.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

In the US - the Indian community is so influential and visible that many Pakistanis & Bangladeshis identify as Indian American !

I’ve never seen this happen. Like never.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

It is pretty common. I have stayed in all those places and a lot of them identify as Indians. They won't go around saying they are Indians, but they won't correct you if anyone assumes they are Indians. Only after multiple enquires you will find out that they are actually Pakistanis. It also happened once when I was NJ. One of the new colleagues was Pakistani but I was not aware as I was not part of the hiring panel. Poor guy never told us he was from Pakistan until weeks later when we went to lunch at Veg Restaurant Saravana Bhavan in NJ He was clearly struggling with options he had, and we were quite surprised as most North Indians at our office had tasted south Indian food. Only then the conversation went towards where he was from. He was from Karachi and had spent last few years in NJ.

Sure this happened.

 

[rickroll]

For everyone confidently claiming British Pakistanis are at 'the bottom' of the UK, would this image make you reconsider your thoughts?

<a href="https://ibb.co/kMBKzt1"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/XVLX6q8/mt-Yd-Zd8i-D4-Z1-AHw-I3-VGw-FUZEz-Hijuc9-GN-UUBidz-SS8.webp" alt="mt-Yd-Zd8i-D4-Z1-AHw-I3-VGw-FUZEz-Hijuc9-GN-UUBidz-SS8" border="0"></a>

It'd be interesting to see where Pakistani Americans stand in terms of Home ownership compared to other groups.

If we are not talking about political representation, the real metric is education and income.

 

[moghul]

In the US - the Indian community is so influential and visible that many Pakistanis & Bangladeshis identify as Indian American !

That's non-sense , no Pakistani ever would like to be called an Indian.

 

[rickroll]

That's non-sense , no Pakistani ever would like to be called an Indian.

TBH this point (seems to be from Indians) about Pakistanis LARPing as Indians in the US is fictitious (we have a Pakistani playing super hero in Hollywood for crying out loud!) and it is diluting the quality of the discussion in this thread between Pakistani Americans and British Pakistanis.

As I type this, the naming convention between the two strikes a thought right now and it may shed light on the core difference between the groups.

Pakistani American - American at its core and is describing a category of the various Americans.

British Pakistani - Pakistani at its core and seems to describe a category of the various Pakistanis.

The description of what your core to me also says about where the true loyalty may lie. If there is a sport between US and Pakistan, you can bet your life savings that a 2nd or 3rd gen Pakistani American will want to root for the US. But in the UK, all British Asians usually root for their respective ethnic origin countries in sports, right?

I'm not saying one is right and the other is wrong but it seems interesting how the two communities have evolved differently - one more inward looking, and one more outward looking.

 

[SalimBhai]

TBH this point (seems to be from Indians) about Pakistanis LARPing as Indians in the US is fictitious (we have a Pakistani playing super hero in Hollywood for crying out loud!) and it is diluting the quality of the discussion in this thread between Pakistani Americans and British Pakistanis.

As I type this, the naming convention between the two strikes a thought right now and it may shed light on the core difference between the groups.

Pakistani American - American at its core and is describing a category of the various Americans.

British Pakistani - Pakistani at its core and seems to describe a category of the various Pakistanis.

The description of what your core to me also says about where the true loyalty may lie. If there is a sport between US and Pakistan, you can bet your life savings that a 2nd or 3rd gen Pakistani American will want to root for the US. But in the UK, all British Asians usually root for their respective ethnic origin countries in sports, right?

I'm not saying one is right and the other is wrong but it seems interesting how the two communities have evolved differently - one more inward looking, and one more outward looking.

Great post again. You are on fire today.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Most British Pakistanis aren't 4th gen. The average British Pakistani is still 1st or 2nd gen. I'd say most of the generation aged 0-18 are a mixture of 3rd and 2nd gen. The younger gen are far more likely to go onto University than their White British counterparts and overall the community is fast catching up to the average in terms of education level. I'm sure the results of the 2021 census will show British Pakistanis having a higher % of degrees than White Brits.

One more thing I have noticed, some of the 2nd generation Pakistanis of Kashnmiri descent (or Mirpuris how other Pakistanis often refer to them)are doing quite well in business these days, at least at a local level. Many attending unis as well now, at least compared to the first generation which was mostly from rural areas of Pakistan. Those who actually live here would be witness to it. Yes many of them are still also involved in gang stuff and a bit rough and ready, but the point is they are going in the right direction.

I don't think British Pakistanis have ever had much of an issue with US Pakistanis other than on forums like this, where US Pakistanis seem to unite with Indians in their fear of their British Pakistani brothers. But they have been severely embarrassed by their Indian partners in this thread who have mocked the Pakistanis in America pretending to be Indian. )

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

A British / US tv show / movie caricaturing migrants in unflattering light is a common trope in the West. Its like how Bollywood movies generally show Pakistanis as terrorists / villains. Or Hollywood movies showed Russians / Arabs as villains. In the 90s US tv shows had similar caricatures of Indians. Most famously as " Apu " with funny accent, But those days are now gone. Indians nowadays get normal roles in Hollywood movies without any caricature. A sign of greater visibility of Indian Americans in the US

In real life you will never see Indian expats trying to pretend to be British / Americans. I mean with our brown shin it wud be laughable to even do anything like that !

Except these aren't made by white people mocking immigrants, Goodness Gracious Me was actually made by British Indians. These clips are specifically sending up Indian immigrants trying to pass themselves off as better than their more rural fellow Indians by sucking up to the white Brits, something those of us who have lived here have witnessed regularly. I hope watching these, readers will be able to see past the Indian/Pakistan narrative and see the similarities at work in this topic re US/UK Pakistanis.

 

[rickroll]

One more thing I have noticed, some of the 2nd generation Pakistanis of Kashnmiri descent (or Mirpuris how other Pakistanis often refer to them)are doing quite well in business these days, at least at a local level. Many attending unis as well now, at least compared to the first generation which was mostly from rural areas of Pakistan. Those who actually live here would be witness to it. Yes many of them are still also involved in gang stuff and a bit rough and ready, but the point is they are going in the right direction.

I don't think British Pakistanis have ever had much of an issue with US Pakistanis other than on forums like this, where US Pakistanis seem to unite with Indians in their fear of their British Pakistani brothers. But they have been severely embarrassed by their Indian partners in this thread who have mocked the Pakistanis in America pretending to be Indian. )

Not sure this is true and I have added a post explaining this in post #99 of this thread. There was less friction between Pakistani Americans (NOT US Pakistanis please) and Indian Americans during pre-Modi times. But post Modi, the crazies in the Indian American community seem to have gone up so there is probably a cautious distance between the two now, but still nothing nowhere near the friction in the UK.

Most Pakistani Americans don't care about Indians' inputs in this thread as it is irrelevant and adding Indians to this conversation is a pointless distraction at best. Yes, most Pakistani Americans also do not LARP as Indians. A few Indians mentioning it does not make it true and it need not be used as a distraction against the core topic of this thread.

British Pakistanis - more conservative, lower education, lower income levels, more inward looking, less women's rights, more unity in the community, bigger political voice, more political achievements, higher loyalty to Pakistan than UK. This after 4 generations of being a part of UK.

Pakistani Americans - less conservative, higher education, higher income levels, more outward looking, higher women's rights, less cohesion/unity in the community, low political voice, low political achievements, higher loyalty to US than Pakistan (at 2nd gen and later). This after probably 2 gens (maybe 3) of being part of the US.

I'm not dissing either community, and not saying one is better than the other but pointing out the differences and how the size of the community and the adopted countries' (US - UK) demographies and policies have shaped the respective Pakistani communities over the generations.

For all of the "looking down" on the British Pakistani community for lower education/income and more regressive thinking, they do have more unity and higher political accomplishments.

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

Many questions pop up here to challenge the perception of "it is better to stay true to your roots and culture" narrative ...

How do you define roots and culture? Reading/writing Urdu, watching Pakistani films or listening to Pakistani music? Eating mostly Pakistani cuisine? higher levels of religious adherence? More conservative? Only interacting with others in the Pakistani community? Mostly marrying cousins per the norm in the motherland? Objectifying women? Denying rights for women including those in your own family? ...

As you can see above, roots and culture is a spectrum, so where do you draw the line for meaningful adoption? Also bear in mind that meaningful adoption can change with time.

How can we also say only adherence to Pakistani culture is good regardless of where we live? Isn't that a myopic approach to things? Shouldn't the best path be adherence to good aspects of both cultures you are exposed to, for the benefit of yourself and your family?

All good points, I can only talk about my experiences.I believe that Pakistani individuals in the United States often come across as somewhat apologetic when introducing themselves as being from Pakistan. However, I strongly believe that it's important to take pride in one's roots and accomplishments.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Not sure this is true and I have added a post explaining this in post #99 of this thread. There was less friction between Pakistani Americans (NOT US Pakistanis please) and Indian Americans during pre-Modi times. But post Modi, the crazies in the Indian American community seem to have gone up so there is probably a cautious distance between the two now, but still nothing nowhere near the friction in the UK.

Most Pakistani Americans don't care about Indians' inputs in this thread as it is irrelevant and adding Indians to this conversation is a pointless distraction at best. Yes, most Pakistani Americans also do not LARP as Indians. A few Indians mentioning it does not make it true and it need not be used as a distraction against the core topic of this thread.

British Pakistanis - more conservative, lower education, lower income levels, more inward looking, less women's rights, more unity in the community, bigger political voice, more political achievements, higher loyalty to Pakistan than UK. This after 4 generations of being a part of UK.

Pakistani Americans - less conservative, higher education, higher income levels, more outward looking, higher women's rights, less cohesion/unity in the community, low political voice, low political achievements, higher loyalty to US than Pakistan (at 2nd gen and later). This after probably 2 gens (maybe 3) of being part of the US.

I'm not dissing either community, and not saying one is better than the other but pointing out the differences and how the size of the community and the adopted countries' (US - UK) demographies and policies have shaped the respective Pakistani communities over the generations.

For all of the "looking down" on the British Pakistani community for lower education/income and more regressive thinking, they do have more unity and higher political accomplishments.

There isn't actually much friction between Pakistanis and Indians in the UK, this is a misconception which has been
amplified by hindutvas finding their voice via the internet. Indians are usually quite polite and respectful face to face.

 

[rickroll]

There isn't actually much friction between Pakistanis and Indians in the UK, this is a misconception which has been
amplified by hindutvas finding their voice via the internet. Indians are usually quite polite and respectful face to face.

Gotcha, thank you for clarifying this.

 

[rickroll]

There isn't actually much friction between Pakistanis and Indians in the UK, this is a misconception which has been
amplified by hindutvas finding their voice via the internet. Indians are usually quite polite and respectful face to face.

Point I was trying to make was that incidents like the one below are non-existent in the US but they do exist in the UK (probably few and far in between pre-Modi and more frequent post-Modi). I should have clarified this better, I'm not saying friction between Pakistani and Indian communities is high in UK in an absolute sense. I was only saying it is higher in UK than in the US (so in a relative sense). Among the contributors for this would be higher number of people among both communities in the UK (than in the US) and both communities being more inward looking in the UK as opposed to both communities being more outward looking in the US.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/huge-brawl-breaks-out-uk-27886799

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...for-calm-after-hindu-muslim-unrest-in-uk-city

 

[wasim-fan]

Legacy. Commonwealth rules. Demography. Education. Immigration criterias.

US tends to attract the best talent from across the globe. You will find this gap across all nationalities not just Pakistanis. And high performing folks think differently.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Point I was trying to make was that incidents like the one below are non-existent in the US but they do exist in the UK (probably few and far in between pre-Modi and more frequent post-Modi). I should have clarified this better, I'm not saying friction between Pakistani and Indian communities is high in UK in an absolute sense. I was only saying it is higher in UK than in the US (so in a relative sense). Among the contributors for this would be higher number of people among both communities in the UK (than in the US) and both communities being more inward looking in the UK as opposed to both communities being more outward looking in the US.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/huge-brawl-breaks-out-uk-27886799

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...for-calm-after-hindu-muslim-unrest-in-uk-city

Does the larger population of the US actually care about India vs Pakistan? We westerners just see the whole place as a giant slum.

 

[chrismatt83]

I've travelled quite a bit in the US. I think what helps is that there are other large minority groups and US culture quite happily allows people to have multiple identities.

Most Americans when speak about their ancestry quite openly, most of it is probably false, but they are quite happy claiming multiple descents and celebrating different cultures.

There isn't much spotlight on individual groups because there are so many of them. For example, here in the UK you stand out in the workplace if you are Pakistani, in the US the blacks take a lot of the heat.

Older generation seems quite content and happy to let their kids become fully american and less Pakistani. I would say that the number of kids living a fully american lifestyle is massive - especially those attending colleges away from home. People here are mentioning UK based drug dealers etc - I would argue that American Pakistanis are mainly alcohol drinkers, pro lgbtq+ coconuts ( generalisation of course not all of them).

In contrast in the UK when our parents/grandparents got here they stuck out like a sore thumb. They were beaten up and abused. It became essential to retreat, group together and form our own areas. They had nothing else to fall back on apart from being Pakistani - so that became our sole identity. There was no interest in assimilation or integration because it often resulted in rejection. This resulted in deeper ties to the so called motherland.

it's not all doom and gloom. None of you US based guys had the initiative to make a popular Pakistani forum, so you are exposed to a lot more of things happening in the UK than we do in the US. On forums generally only bad news is shared and so you only see one side of the story.

I agree with most of this, my experience, as an Indian, now an American citizen who had two very good Pakistani friends (born in the Us) from college were just awesome!! And boy were they both extremely good looking!! So much to my annoyance, that any Indian girl I was with, would constantly be asking me if my Pakistani friends were single or if they were Indian. They’re both happily married now. When I first met them through friends, had I not been told they were Pakistani, I would have thought they were your typical white guys. They were extremely fair and didn’t have any beards and such, but very well groomed. They weren’t religious at all and neither were their parents. We all did engineering together. We often joked, about how we were supposed to be enemies and laugh about it. We partied and went clubbing together, drank and it was a blast. But again in the Us the Americans mostly have a real racist bias against blacks and typically are ignorant about Indians/Pakistanis/ Bangladeshis that we barely register except that, they do know that we are mostly well educated and are in good social standing having the top most positions in corporate America, be it medical or corporate.

 

[NishanKonar]

Point I was trying to make was that incidents like the one below are non-existent in the US but they do exist in the UK (probably few and far in between pre-Modi and more frequent post-Modi). I should have clarified this better, I'm not saying friction between Pakistani and Indian communities is high in UK in an absolute sense. I was only saying it is higher in UK than in the US (so in a relative sense). Among the contributors for this would be higher number of people among both communities in the UK (than in the US) and both communities being more inward looking in the UK as opposed to both communities being more outward looking in the US.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/huge-brawl-breaks-out-uk-27886799

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...for-calm-after-hindu-muslim-unrest-in-uk-city

In the US both Indians and Pakistanis belong to same social strata. Like mostly highly educated engineers / doctors / MBA. So they get along very well. There is not much difference in lifestyle between average Indian and Pakistani in the US. Also US based Pakistanis tend to be less religious and more open minded. Hence more open to mingling with other communities

In UK there is stark difference between Indian and Pakistani community. Indians are mostly white collar folks while most Pakistanis tend to blue collar jobs like cab drivers / waiters / takeaway guys. You rarely see Indians and Pakistanis in the same social circles. This is especially true for the younger generation. There is not much socializing between the 2 groups. This often leads to friction between the 2 groups

 

[rickroll]

Does the larger population of the US actually care about India vs Pakistan? We westerners just see the whole place as a giant slum.

Huh? How is this comment relevant to the topic of this thread?

I was sharing that data point in the context of UK having higher friction between the two communities than the US, to add to the discussion of how inward+entrenched South Asian communities in UK seem to be relative to the ones in the US. Who cares what the whole wide western world thinks within the scope of this thread?

I responded to your post about low friction between the two communities and explained why that reasoning is not valid in this topic. Your response seems to be digressing from the actual topic and is a head scratcher for me now.

 

[Technics 1210]

In the US both Indians and Pakistanis belong to same social strata.

Indians and Pakistanis in Amreeka belong to the same strata because the next town is 50 miles down the road. The very notion of assimilation beyond a town or city for that matter is no existent, resulting in a communal identity.

This Is the same reason why rednecks are inbred in Amreeka, it is just too far to spread the seed.

 

[Technics 1210]

Does the larger population of the US actually care about India vs Pakistan? We westerners just see the whole place as a giant slum.

Spot on.

In fact the very word 'Indian' in Amreeka actually refers to as Native Americans, and not Subcontinent Indians.

Going back to the point, 'Indians' along with Pakistanis in Amreeka have no cultural or ethnic identity unlike in the UK.

 

[amirm]

I am a 3rd Generation British Pakistani, born and bred in Yorkshire. I am degree qualified and currently work in the oil and gas sector. My parents were of a lower socioeconomic standing, as my dad was a taxi driver and mother was a housewife. However my dad worked so hard, and owns two properties outright now, and my brothers are all successful in their careers too.

As for the argument pertaining to household income in the UK, the government statistics do not take into account the under-reporting/declaration of wealth to the tax man. If British Pakistanis are poor - then how do they have one of the highest home ownership rates in the country? Also I would say roughly 40% of Pakistani men are self-employed, and real wealth is not fully declared which is why the median wage/household income statistics are skewed towards the downside. Even for the women who do work as make-up artists or freelancers, they do the same. Outwardly, British Pakistanis are driving around in nice cars, own plenty of properties, businesses, massive houses back home in Pakistan. Of course there are a minority who have dabbled in drugs, violence etc.

They’re doing pretty well IMO.

 

[Technics 1210]

I am a 3rd Generation British Pakistani, born and bred in Yorkshire. I am degree qualified and currently work in the oil and gas sector. My parents were of a lower socioeconomic standing, as my dad was a taxi driver and mother was a housewife. However my dad worked so hard, and owns two properties outright now, and my brothers are all successful in their careers too.

As for the argument pertaining to household income in the UK, the government statistics do not take into account the under-reporting/declaration of wealth to the tax man. If British Pakistanis are poor - then how do they have one of the highest home ownership rates in the country? Also I would say roughly 40% of Pakistani men are self-employed, and real wealth is not fully declared which is why the median wage/household income statistics are skewed towards the downside. Even for the women who do work as make-up artists or freelancers, they do the same. Outwardly, British Pakistanis are driving around in nice cars, own plenty of properties, businesses, massive houses back home in Pakistan. Of course there are a minority who have dabbled in drugs, violence etc.

They’re doing pretty well IMO.

As proven in this thread, Indians are quick to cite stats, but do not understand how the stats are calculated.

 

[NishanKonar]

Spot on.

In fact the very word 'Indian' in Amreeka actually refers to as Native Americans, and not Subcontinent Indians.

Going back to the point, 'Indians' along with Pakistanis in Amreeka have no cultural or ethnic identity unlike in the UK.

Pakistanis I agree have little ethnic identity in the USA

But you are clearly wrong about Indians. They are easily the most visible minority across America right now. Big cities now regularly host Bollywood musicals. Tik Tokers now regulary share Bollywood dance routines. The movie RRR became one if the most watched movies on OTT in the USA. Yoga is now one of biggest fitness activities - and most Americans know it's from India. Not to mention Indian food - now regularly mentioned as one of the Top 5 most popular in the US

There is difference between Indian and Indian American. Americans use Indian to denote Native Americans and Indian Americans. Its a typical nomenclature which is clearly understood across the country

 

[Technics 1210]

Pakistanis I agree have little ethnic identity in the USA

But you are clearly wrong about Indians. They are easily the most visible minority across America right now. Big cities now regularly host Bollywood musicals. Tik Tokers now regulary share Bollywood dance routines. The movie RRR became one if the most watched movies on OTT in the USA. Yoga is now one of biggest fitness activities - and most Americans know it's from India. Not to mention Indian food - now regularly mentioned as one of the Top 5 most popular in the US

There is difference between Indian and Indian American. Americans use Indian to denote Native Americans and Indian Americans. Its a typical nomenclature which is clearly understood across the country

You don't have to tell me the difference why Amreekan refer to Indians as native Indians. I mentioned this point above long before you did.

SC Indians have next to zero recognition in USA.

As I mention, the very word 'Indian' actually refers to native Americans, and you are telling fibs if you believe Americans think India when Indians is mentioned.

Plus there is no such thing as American Indians, as your Indian government does not recognise dual nationality, unlike American Pakistanis.

Indians have next to zero identity which is why they cling to American CEOs of Indian heritage.

 

[NishanKonar]

You don't have to tell me the difference why Amreekan refer to Indians as native Indians. I mentioned this point above long before you did.

SC Indians have next to zero recognition in USA.

As I mention, the very word 'Indian' actually refers to native Americans, and you are telling fibs if you believe Americans think India when Indians is mentioned.

Plus there is no such thing as American Indians, as your Indian government does not recognise dual nationality, unlike American Pakistanis.

Indians have next to zero identity which is why they cling to American CEOs of Indian heritage.

The " Indian" was used by Christopher Columbus to describe original inhabitants of North America. That became the standard term for Native Americans. When Indians started migrating to the US in the 20th century - they were initially called " Hindoos ". But post 1947 the nomenclature changed to " Indian American ". That's how the 2 terms emerged in the US

Regarding recognition of Indians in USA - you just need to come to the US and see for urself. Little point in arguing with someone who seems to have never stepped on US soil

 

[Technics 1210]

The " Indian" was used by Christopher Columbus to describe original inhabitants of North America. That became the standard term for Native Americans. When Indians started migrating to the US in the 20th century - they were initially called " Hindoos ". But post 1947 the nomenclature changed to " Indian American ". That's how the 2 terms emerged in the US

Regarding recognition of Indians in USA - you just need to come to the US and see for urself. Little point in arguing with someone who seems to have never stepped on US soil

Save the Wiki response.

I have been in USA longer than you have and for this reason I mentioned native Indians, yet you failed to mention the what the term Indian means in Amreeka. So unless you are at my level of experience, save your responses. Though I sense your blood pressure is boiling at the truth.

You have no cultural or ethnic identity in Amreeka. At best a religious one.

 

[NishanKonar]

Save the Wiki response.

I have been in USA longer than you have and for this reason I mentioned native Indians, yet you failed to mention the what the term Indian means in Amreeka. So unless you are at my level of experience, save your responses. Though I sense your blood pressure is boiling at the truth.

You have no cultural or ethnic identity in Amreeka. At best a religious one.

You see Indians have no identity in US but still Pakistanis here identify as American. So sad !

 

[Technics 1210]

You see Indians have no identity in US but still Pakistanis here identify as American. So sad !

My posts were in ENGLISH. Neither have an identity in Amreeka but push come to shove, Indians have close to a zero of an identity hence they cling to Indian heritage especially when it comes to CEOs. Not the case with American Pakistanis.

Mention Indians in Amreeka and the first thing that pops into ones mind is native Americans, mention Pakistan and its another ball game. This proves Indians like you need to educate Amreekans of your identity because Indians have been living in the shadows of American Pakistani, its the closest you have to a cultural identity.

You've been spanked. Your pitiful attempts at anointing Indians based on nothing but money and education in Amreeka have been torpedoed, as well as in the UK, because in the end you believe money is your identity. Such a disgrace, but understandable.

Maybe learn about Amreeka and its culture before you go all bravado.

 

[NishanKonar]

My posts were in ENGLISH. Neither have an identity in Amreeka but push come to shove, Indians have close to a zero of an identity hence they cling to Indian heritage especially when it comes to CEOs. Not the case with American Pakistanis.

Mention Indians in Amreeka and the first thing that pops into ones mind is native Americans, mention Pakistan and its another ball game. This proves Indians like you need to educate Amreekans of your identity because Indians have been living in the shadows of American Pakistani, its the closest you have to a cultural identity.

You've been spanked. Your pitiful attempts at anointing Indians based on nothing but money and education in Amreeka have been torpedoed, as well as in the UK, because in the end you believe money is your identity. Such a disgrace, but understandable.

Maybe learn about Amreeka and its culture before you go all bravado.

Calm down bro. Just chill. This is just a forum for discussion. No need to get so angry and hyper. over such trivial discussions. If you disagree its fine. Looks like you will soon pop a vein !

Take a deep breathe and calm your nerves !

Peace

 

[Stewie]

All good points, I can only talk about my experiences.I believe that Pakistani individuals in the United States often come across as somewhat apologetic when introducing themselves as being from Pakistan. However, I strongly believe that it's important to take pride in one's roots and accomplishments.

Very unlike my experience. My family has been here since the 70s, I was born here and we have never been shy or apologetic when saying we are originally from Pakistan. When I used to live in Houston, there were massive Eid and 8/14 celebrations (don’t know if that still goes on), but yeah overall not as close to our roots as the UK Pakistanis… fair point, but not apologetic at all.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Without beating around the bush, the well off and highly educated class were able to go and settle in the US. Rest of the peyndoo crowd went to the other remaining countries. There is always a clear cut visible difference in class. The same applies to Indian diaspora.

You can now defend this in any manner possible but it is what it is. This is the simplest answer to the question. No need for anyone to be offended.

I personally wouldn’t want to settle in Canada or UK , simply for the fact that there are exponentially more desi villagers there than in Indian metro cities.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Without beating around the bush, the well off and highly educated class were able to go and settle in the US. Rest of the peyndoo crowd went to the other remaining countries. There is always a clear cut visible difference in class. The same applies to Indian diaspora.

You can now defend this in any manner possible but it is what it is. This is the simplest answer to the question. No need for anyone to be offended.

I personally wouldn’t want to settle in Canada or UK , simply for the fact that there are exponentially more desi villagers there than in Indian metro cities.

Education is important, but an educated dwarf would still be a dwarf.

 

[corleone]

Education is important, but an educated dwarf would still be a dwarf.

Pakistanis in the UK have generally done pretty well for themselves, despite as some posters have put it, being "peyndoos".


As much as you hear about drug trafficking and grooming gangs in Rochdale, Bradford etc there's many highly educated Pakistanis at the top of their field whether they're doctors, dentists, lawyers, university lecturers or businessmen and so on.

Can't speak for Pakistani Americans but anyone that thinks British Pakistanis are peyndoos, needs to open their eyes and realise we are several generations on from when our ancestors came here, and most Pakistanis live a very comfortable life here.

 

[rickroll]

Education is important, but an educated dwarf would still be a dwarf.

Pakistanis in the UK have generally done pretty well for themselves, despite as some posters have put it, being "peyndoos".


As much as you hear about drug trafficking and grooming gangs in Rochdale, Bradford etc there's many highly educated Pakistanis at the top of their field whether they're doctors, dentists, lawyers, university lecturers or businessmen and so on.

Can't speak for Pakistani Americans but anyone that thinks British Pakistanis are peyndoos, needs to open their eyes and realise we are several generations on from when our ancestors came here, and most Pakistanis live a very comfortable life here.

It is all about probabilities and the percentage of the population that has a good or bad outcome as a result of these probabilities.

An educated person has a lower chances of becoming a "dwarf" while an uneducated one has higher chances of becoming one.

I would not say ALL Pakistani Americans are stellar or ALL British Pakistanis are drug traffickers or grooming gangs of Rochdale/Bradford. If you compare both communities (Pakistani Americans and British Pakistanis), a higher percentage will be under the stellar category among Pakistani Americans and the stellar percentage will be lower among British Pakistanis. "Stellar" here is higher education, lower crime, higher women's rights, more connected to other communities, outward looking community etc.

Ask yourself honestly, do you think a higher percentage of British Pakistanis are stellar compared to Pakistani Americans? Do you think a lower percentage of British Pakistanis are drug traffickers or pedophile groomers compared to Pakistani Americans? Answer is no to both (unfortunate for the British Pakistanis here) and it is because of education.

The flip side to this is absolute numbers and how that affects the political standings. Pakistani Americans are lower in number and mostly no political power. British Pakistanis seem to have higher political power.

 

[Big Mac]

Lastly, US requires people with proper educational qualifications to qualify to live there. Illiterate Asians cannot get in easily.

This is true, USA has no need for illiterate immigrants the country is full of Americans they've got that part covered already.

 

[Stewie]

This is true, USA has no need for illiterate immigrants the country is full of Americans they've got that part covered already.

It’s a balancing act. Americans have a vast majority of blue collared workforce and they want to attract the educated brainy white collar class from around the world to sustain their continued innovation and progress.

Britain seems to be full of lords and royals and it seems they need the working class more.

 

[ahsan17]

I have seen similar topics before. I think it has to something to do with education. American Pakistanis also tend to have lesser opportunities to live among Pakistani only communities like it happens in England.

Lastly, US requires people with proper educational qualifications to qualify to live there. Illiterate Asians cannot get in easily.

You are talking about people who immigrate on work visas. Family-based immigration is wild west where anyone can come, as long as they are a qualified relative and willing to wait.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

You are talking about people who immigrate on work visas. Family-based immigration is wild west where anyone can come, as long as they are a qualified relative and willing to wait.

It must be the environment and or social structure in USA that helps immigrants to flourish.

Many of those illiterate Asians who arrive here on family based immigration tend to have their second generation pursue a very good standard of education and become positive contributing members of the society.

I have seen numerous examples - Low educated families with little money, arrive here - and they start a life by doing odd jobs - but their kids tend to pursue good education and become educated professionals.

I am sure many others have noticed - dad is a cab driver or works at a gas station etc but the kids become engineers, physicians, financial advisors, finance professionals etc.


But it’s a weird phenomenon among many third and fourth gen Pakistanis in UK - they remain unskilled labor.

 

[Big Mac]

It’s a balancing act. Americans have a vast majority of blue collared workforce and they want to attract the educated brainy white collar class from around the world to sustain their continued innovation and progress.

Britain seems to be full of lords and royals and it seems they need the working class more.

I wouldn't read too much into my post I just wanted to call Americans dumb. Not like Britain is much better but American exceptionalism is a particularly unique strain of delusional nationalism.

I have seen numerous examples - Low educated families with little money, arrive here - and they start a life by doing odd jobs - but their kids tend to pursue good education and become educated professionals.

I am sure many others have noticed - dad is a cab driver or works at a gas station etc but the kids become engineers, physicians, financial advisors, finance professionals etc.

Bro this happens in every country lmao

 

[shaz619]

Americans have a slave / uncle tom mentality, they will abandon all their values to be accepted by a bunch of nimrods and idiot liberals

 

[Energy]

It must be the environment and or social structure in USA that helps immigrants to flourish.

Many of those illiterate Asians who arrive here on family based immigration tend to have their second generation pursue a very good standard of education and become positive contributing members of the society.

I have seen numerous examples - Low educated families with little money, arrive here - and they start a life by doing odd jobs - but their kids tend to pursue good education and become educated professionals.

I am sure many others have noticed - dad is a cab driver or works at a gas station etc but the kids become engineers, physicians, financial advisors, finance professionals etc.


But it’s a weird phenomenon among many third and fourth gen Pakistanis in UK - they remain unskilled labor.

The last paragraph is alarming.

 

[shaz619]

The last paragraph is alarming.

It’s untrue and a moronic generalisation.

Majority of the populous pursue higher education now, and whether in media, acting, music, professional careers, medicine or sport; they are thriving.

The only thing they have fallen back in is letting their superiors abuse them and pandering to liberal extremism.

I think religion and family values are also important, these haven’t been abandoned. Those in the US have sold their souls to the devil.

 

[shaz619]

America is the Mecca of Boxing right, which American Pakistani or Pakistani American has thrived in the sport there? [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]

They wouldn’t dare.

They are more good for doing protests for trans protection, allowing their superiors to run rings around them and dreaming of dating some weird hippie with a suspect gender.

 

[Stewie]

I wouldn't read too much into my post I just wanted to call Americans dumb. Not like Britain is much better but American exceptionalism is a particularly unique strain of delusional nationalism.



Bro this happens in every country lmao

Which is fine. They are. It’s a miracle they rule the world.

But I think we are getting off topic here now.

 

[Kroll]

The British Pakistani is a member of a well established and decades long community. I was in Pakistan recently and there was a woman from Canada at a family gathering trying so hard to accentuate her Canadian drawl when talking in Urdu, I found it so cringe.

The North American Pakistanis try too hard to be Uncle Toms. Its so cringe.

 

[shortbread]

The foundations of the Pakistani migrant population in the UK and US are very different.

Arrival: Migration to the US is challenging, initially due to geography and then due to regulations. Migration to the UK was more organised and on a much larger scale.

So what?

Well in the UK thousands arrived en masse and they lived close to each other and formed collective colonies of similar cultures/race. How come - will be detailed later. In the US a similar phenomenon happened among blacks who were brought in as slaves. But arrivals from the commonwealth into the US was scattered, therefore they necessarily did not live together or close by, they were spread all over. Hence you are most likely to see Pakistani/Bangladeshi ghettos in the UK and black ghettos in the US.

Quality: UK brought in unskilled migrants to work in factories and they traditionally did not have the educational foundations, therefore had poorer livelihoods. What made things worse was the collapse of British industry and the unemployment that followed, which made progress tougher.

Irrespective of this the previous generations did their best and all had the same idea, to do better in life. This sort of class war/finger pointing of oh Pakistanis of falana country is so much more impressive than Pakistanis of dhimkana country, is both petty and stupid.

For Bradford, most of their new South Asian population were Muslims from Mirpur in Pakistan. Here in the late 1950s and early 1960s, the Government of Pakistan planned the Mangla Dam, which was to be built in the Mirpur area.

They asked several thousand locals to leave the land. At that time, the British needed man-power
mainly for their textile factories. Up to 5,000 people from Mirpur (five per cent of the displaced) left for
Britain, the displaced Mirpuris being given legal and financial assistance by the British contractor which
had built the dam. Many started working in factories, mostly in Birmingham and Bradford. In some
Mirpur villages, more than half the population moved to the United Kingdom to settle in the industrial
towns. This rural, impoverished district provided cheap, unskilled labour for Britain in the 1960s and
1970s.

These migrants were to suffer greater prejudice and discrimination due to their colour and their
religious beliefs and as numbers grew, so did British Government concern. The government had greatly
restricted immigration by the 1970s but had not stopped it altogether. Some 83,000 immigrants from
the Commonwealth settled in the UK between 1968 and 1975, largely through gaining work permits or
obtaining permission to join relatives. The most significant migration of people of South Asian origin
came in 1972 when the Ugandan dictator General Idi Amin expelled 80,000 African Asians from the
country, families who had been encouraged to settle there during the days of Empire. Many held British
passports, and, amid a major crisis, the UK admitted 28,000 in two months.

The contribution made by South Asian migrants to Bradford’s textile industry cannot be underestimated
and the Saltaire Collection is planning to record some first-hand experiences of work in textile
production and explore some of the barriers the first migrants faced in being accepted by indigenous
workers. The issues of disproportionate unemployment faced by these communities as the textile
industry declined in the late 1970s and early 1980’s has tentacles that persist to the present day but
their major contribution to the economy of the City and the rich cultural diversity of Bradford today is
worthy of celebration.

Saltaire Collection - Migrant workers Bradford

 

[SalimBhai]

America is the Mecca of Boxing right, which American Pakistani or Pakistani American has thrived in the sport there? [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]

They wouldn’t dare.

They are more good for doing protests for trans protection, allowing their superiors to run rings around them and dreaming of dating some weird hippie with a suspect gender.

Totally made up post .

 

[SalimBhai]

Totally made up post .

Also boxing is usually a low income group sport. Not many Pakistanis fall into that group. Pakistanis here are more academic inclined. . Also uk had one boxer amir khan. And he was just ok. You can keep him. Hahahah

 

[Stewie]

Totally made up post .

Tori mirchein lagi hui hein bachay ko, janey do lol.

It is just bitterness at facing the truth. Shad Khan is part owner of a UK football club but how many brit football club owners or part owners happen to be UK Pakistanis? IN fact most soccer clubs in the UK are owned by american owners or businesses. SO it is not a surprise the only pakistani owner happens to be an American.

I thought i should just mention this part, it is by no means any evidence or in support of the argument the US Pakistanis are better off than their UK counterparts, because it is also a one off case like Amir Khan's.

But since we are being told we have uncle tom personalities, perhaps they should look at the most popular sport in their own country and see who is running it and also ponder over what happened to that poor ISIS bride. WHo was that "bloke" again who signed the orders that doomed her? WHy it was Chacha Tom Sajid, wasnt it? HAHA

 

[JaDed]

UK is too small to be compared to US.. Texas is 2.8 times bigger than UK..

US has areas which are super Liberal and areas that are very conservative and then in the middle.

But overall I do think Europe is way more Liberal than US, the Liberals in US always give example of European countries.

 

[SalimBhai]

It’s untrue and a moronic generalisation.

Majority of the populous pursue higher education now, and whether in media, acting, music, professional careers, medicine or sport; they are thriving.

The only thing they have fallen back in is letting their superiors abuse them and pandering to liberal extremism.

I think religion and family values are also important, these haven’t been abandoned. Those in the US have sold their souls to the devil.

How did they sell their souls to the devil? By not marrying their cousins ? Or not being on welfare for generations ? Pakistani Americans are on the top of the food chain. Even those with meager means, when they get here they see all the others succeeding and they get cracking to accomplish also. . It’s the mindset. That’s all

 

[Stewie]

UK is too small to be compared to US.. Texas is 2.8 times bigger than UK..

US has areas which are super Liberal and areas that are very conservative and then in the middle.

But overall I do think Europe is way more Liberal than US, the Liberals in US always give example of European countries.

This is lost on some people here. It has been mentioned several times before that there are certain reasons behind expats in the US doing better and one of them is definitely the overall size and scale of the US and its not a knock on the expats in the UK. But then we hear about the second part of it. That we are all liberals and uncle toms. lol

USA is overall far far more conservative. In fact, one of the reasons the europeans came here years ago and left their native lands was because of their conservatism.

 

[SalimBhai]

This is lost on some people here. It has been mentioned several times before that there are certain reasons behind expats in the US doing better and one of them is definitely the overall size and scale of the US and its not a knock on the expats in the UK. But then we hear about the second part of it. That we are all liberals and uncle toms. lol

USA is overall far far more conservative. In fact, one of the reasons the europeans came here years ago and left their native lands was because of their conservatism.

All it comes down to in the end is the mindset. The mindset here is to educate, educate, educate and succeed. I have family in England also. They don’t have this mindset. Always playing the victim card and believing conspiracies . Evident here from many not all uk Pakistanis also here on PP.

 

[Stewie]

All it comes down to in the end is the mindset. The mindset here is to educate, educate, educate and succeed. I have family in England also. They don’t have this mindset. Always playing the victim card and believing conspiracies . Evident here from many not all uk Pakistanis also here on PP.

my wife has family there and she was telling me they mostly pray they wil get council housing.

For us, there are no handouts. We have to work for every thing and that is why we have to either educate ourselves or work hard at being better business people.

I remember when i came here from Pakistan to pursue higher education, even though I was a citizen, I had to work as a student and nobody paid for my college or rent or bills, I had to do it myself working odd jobs or take loans which I paid back with interest.

College education in the UK by the way is also cheaper for UK citizens than it is in the US for US citizens.

 

[Big Mac]

Man here I thought it was because the wave of Pakistani immigrants who started arriving in America during the mid-60's were middle and upper class with higher education and therefore had a way easier time building on the wealth they had already accumulated but I guess I'm wrong America must be a magical place where lazy good for nothing immigrants go and are transformed into hard working, studious entrepreneurs and titans of industry who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps thanks to the incredible power of freedom and democracy.

Now for something totally unrelated let's look at Pakistanis in New York City.

First an older study published in 2004.

Now let's see how that changed over the next couple of decades shall we? Study from the same organisation published in 2019:

https://www.aafederation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/2019pk.pdf

New York City’s Pakistani population was among the fastest growing Asian ethnic groups. Relative to all residents, Pakistani population in New York City were:

 more likely to be children,
 less likely to have graduated high school,
 more likely to be limited English proficient,
 lower income,
 more likely to be poor, and
 less likely to own their homes

Educational attainment for Pakistani adults in 2015 was mixed. Of the city’s 31,098 Pakistani adults, 25 percent had not graduated from high school, comparatively higher than 20 percent of adults citywide.

Also, 15 percent of Pakistani adults in New York City had less than a ninth-grade education – higher than the 10 percent rate for all adult New Yorkers.

New York City’s Pakistani residents had a higher incidence of limited English proficiency (LEP) than New Yorkers as a whole in 2015.3

Pakistani New Yorkers had lower incomes compared to New York City residents overall for all income gauges.4
The Pakistani median household income was $48,141, less than the $53,373 median for the entire city population. Median family income was $43,783 for Pakistanis and $59,285 for city residents as a whole.
Additionally, Pakistani per capita income was $19,455 – significantly less than $33,078 citywide

The poverty rates for Pakistani residents in relation to the total New York City population were higher overall.
Among all Pakistanis in the city, 27.6 percent lived below the poverty line, compared with the general New York City poverty rate of 20.6 percent. For children, 37.5 percent of Pakistanis in New York City experienced poverty, compared with 29.5 percent of all city children.

With working-age adults, 22.8 percent of Pakistanis lived in poverty compared to 18.1 percent citywide. Pakistani seniors had a much higher poverty rate at 28.3 percent, compared to 18.8 percent seniors citywide

Pakistani households were more likely to be overcrowded than households in general, with 36 percent of Pakistani households and 9 percent of households in general having more than one occupant per room

I have no idea why they haven't been transformed by the yankee mindset and continue to live in overcrowded poverty with limited English skills and education.

Normally I would have said something about capitalism installing an all encompassing web of institutional and societal factors that create a self-perpetuating cycle of poverty but I have been informed by posters (Who must be smarter than I am because they live in America) that this is a tinpot conspiracy imagined by ignorant paindoos.

So I guess the only explanation is that there was a mix up at Islamabad airport departure terminal and New York keeps getting batches of defective Pakistanis that were supposed to go to Bradford?

Yeah, that's definitely it.

 

[SalimBhai]

Man here I thought it was because the wave of Pakistani immigrants who started arriving in America during the mid-60's were middle and upper class with higher education and therefore had a way easier time building on the wealth they had already accumulated but I guess I'm wrong America must be a magical place where lazy good for nothing immigrants go and are transformed into hard working, studious entrepreneurs and titans of industry who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps thanks to the incredible power of freedom and democracy.

Now for something totally unrelated let's look at Pakistanis in New York City.

First an older study published in 2004.

Now let's see how that changed over the next couple of decades shall we? Study from the same organisation published in 2019:

https://www.aafederation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/2019pk.pdf














I have no idea why they haven't been transformed by the yankee mindset and continue to live in overcrowded poverty with limited English skills and education.

Normally I would have said something about capitalism installing an all encompassing web of institutional and societal factors that create a self-perpetuating cycle of poverty but I have been informed by posters (Who must be smarter than I am because they live in America) that this is a tinpot conspiracy imagined by ignorant paindoos.

So I guess the only explanation is that there was a mix up at Islamabad airport departure terminal and New York keeps getting batches of defective Pakistanis that were supposed to go to Bradford?

Yeah, that's definitely it.

Now do Dallas, houston . Nyc is the only place where we have still some poverty among Pakistanis. Have you done overall Pakistanis. No because you know the stats there

 

[Big Mac]

Now do Dallas, houston . Nyc is the only place where we have still some poverty among Pakistanis. Have you done overall Pakistanis. No because you know the stats there

No I didn't do it because I'm a lazy British Pakistani paindoo and the New York figures were the first thing that popped up after 30 seconds of googling "Pakistani Americans" and going to the wiki page.

But sure keep pretending that going to America makes Pakistanis smarter somehow because it makes you feel better.

Why have the Pakistanis in New York not broken out of the cycle of poverty? Surely the spirit of George Washington should have descended from the sky and touched them on their forehead and opened up their eyes to the American dream by now?

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

Man here I thought it was because the wave of Pakistani immigrants who started arriving in America during the mid-60's were middle and upper class with higher education and therefore had a way easier time building on the wealth they had already accumulated but I guess I'm wrong America must be a magical place where lazy good for nothing immigrants go and are transformed into hard working, studious entrepreneurs and titans of industry who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps thanks to the incredible power of freedom and democracy.

Now for something totally unrelated let's look at Pakistanis in New York City.

First an older study published in 2004.

Now let's see how that changed over the next couple of decades shall we? Study from the same organisation published in 2019:

https://www.aafederation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/2019pk.pdf














I have no idea why they haven't been transformed by the yankee mindset and continue to live in overcrowded poverty with limited English skills and education.

Normally I would have said something about capitalism installing an all encompassing web of institutional and societal factors that create a self-perpetuating cycle of poverty but I have been informed by posters (Who must be smarter than I am because they live in America) that this is a tinpot conspiracy imagined by ignorant paindoos.

So I guess the only explanation is that there was a mix up at Islamabad airport departure terminal and New York keeps getting batches of defective Pakistanis that were supposed to go to Bradford?

Yeah, that's definitely it.

Lol someone is hurt.

NYC is one of the only regions where the Pakistani community is blue collar. NYC is where most immigrants first show up especially if of blue collar variety. Eventually they get the education, do well career wise and buy bigger houses in other cities and even NY suburbs and NJ which wouldn’t come in these statistics.

The simple fact is that the Pakistani American average household income and education level is far ahead of the average American statistics. And unfortunately no matter how you slide and dice the stats, British Pakistanis almost always are in the bottom 25% percentile except being on the dole. Hopefully it improves.

 

[Kroll]

Man here I thought it was because the wave of Pakistani immigrants who started arriving in America during the mid-60's were middle and upper class with higher education and therefore had a way easier time building on the wealth they had already accumulated but I guess I'm wrong America must be a magical place where lazy good for nothing immigrants go and are transformed into hard working, studious entrepreneurs and titans of industry who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps thanks to the incredible power of freedom and democracy.

Now for something totally unrelated let's look at Pakistanis in New York City.

First an older study published in 2004.

Now let's see how that changed over the next couple of decades shall we? Study from the same organisation published in 2019:

https://www.aafederation.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/2019pk.pdf














I have no idea why they haven't been transformed by the yankee mindset and continue to live in overcrowded poverty with limited English skills and education.

Normally I would have said something about capitalism installing an all encompassing web of institutional and societal factors that create a self-perpetuating cycle of poverty but I have been informed by posters (Who must be smarter than I am because they live in America) that this is a tinpot conspiracy imagined by ignorant paindoos.

So I guess the only explanation is that there was a mix up at Islamabad airport departure terminal and New York keeps getting batches of defective Pakistanis that were supposed to go to Bradford?

Yeah, that's definitely it.

No I didn't do it because I'm a lazy British Pakistani paindoo and the New York figures were the first thing that popped up after 30 seconds of googling "Pakistani Americans" and going to the wiki page.

But sure keep pretending that going to America makes Pakistanis smarter somehow because it makes you feel better.

Why have the Pakistanis in New York not broken out of the cycle of poverty? Surely the spirit of George Washington should have descended from the sky and touched them on their forehead and opened up their eyes to the American dream by now?

I find it mildly amusing that someone from North America opened a thread to bash Brit Paks while we have stayed silent knowing that Amreekan and Kanaydian desis are decades behind us.

But let them carry on with their fantasies if it makes them feel better. It is Eid after all…

 

[SalimBhai]

No I didn't do it because I'm a lazy British Pakistani paindoo and the New York figures were the first thing that popped up after 30 seconds of googling "Pakistani Americans" and going to the wiki page.

But sure keep pretending that going to America makes Pakistanis smarter somehow because it makes you feel better.

Why have the Pakistanis in New York not broken out of the cycle of poverty? Surely the spirit of George Washington should have descended from the sky and touched them on their forehead and opened up their eyes to the American dream by now?

New York is the one of the first place immigrants come to when they land. There are not only first generation but freshly arrived immigrants. Not just Pakistanis but other groups have higher poverty levels . After a while mist move to other less competitive cities and prosper. And even in the first generation prosper . 2nd generation does way above average . I think it would be fair to see nyc 2-3 generations down the line Ina. Few decades. Overall pakistani Americans are on top.. very top is held by Indians . One of the reasons Pakistani area but lower than Indians is because in the first generation many women don’t work. That brings down the average household income. . That will go up once Pakistani women also start working down the line. 2nd generation I think most work already. So we are all good here. I can’t image where we will be once we hit 4th generation like the UK.

 

[Stewie]

No I didn't do it because I'm a lazy British Pakistani paindoo and the New York figures were the first thing that popped up after 30 seconds of googling "Pakistani Americans" and going to the wiki page.

But sure keep pretending that going to America makes Pakistanis smarter somehow because it makes you feel better.

Why have the Pakistanis in New York not broken out of the cycle of poverty? Surely the spirit of George Washington should have descended from the sky and touched them on their forehead and opened up their eyes to the American dream by now?

Very interesting share. I think there is a lot to dissect here.

This papaer is NOT comparing NYC Pakistanis with UK Pakistanis. This research is a direct comparison of "NYc Pakistanis" vs "New Yorkers" in general. and when I say New Yorkers, I mean residents of NYC not the entire state of New York, we are looking at a very very narrow sampling here but let us take a look at this research nonetheless.

According to this research conducted in 2015, 1/4th of the adults are not high school grads.. compared to the overall NY percentage of 1/5. Its not a very large gap (20% compared to 25%) but here is trhe surprising part.
37% of Pakistani adults had a college degree and that is higher than the overall NYC resident percentage of college degree holders (36%) this accounts for bachelors degree only.

Income wise, the gap is also not a whole lot $53,373 for NYC households vs $48,141 for NYC Pakistani households, (thats a gap of ~ $5,000/year) per household.

Now a vast majority of NYC residents of Pakistani origin is foreign born (66%) and that means they are not born in the US and are fresh immigrants finding their feet in the country so obviously they will not be as prosperous as the residents of the rest of the city who have been here for generations.

A more comprehensive and nationwide study of the Pakistani Americans can be found here and this covers the entire country:
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/publications/RAD-Pakistan.pdf

Some important poins to consider:


Educational Attainment

- The Pakistani diaspora population in the United States was better educated than the general U.S. population.

- Thirty-three percent of Pakistani diaspora members age 25 years and older had a bachelor’s degree as their highest educational credential versus 20 percent of the general U.S. population.
ƒ
- Twenty-three percent of the Pakistani diaspora age 25 and older had a master’s degree, an advanced professional degree, or a PhD, compared to 11 percent of the U.S.
population overall.



Household Income
ƒ
- Households headed by a member of the Pakistani diaspora had a substantially higher
median annual income than U.S. households overall. The median annual income of
Pakistani diaspora households was about $60,000 versus $50,000 for all U.S. house￾holds.
ƒ
- Thirty-three percent of Pakistani diaspora households reported annual incomes above
$90,000, the threshold for the top 25 percent of all U.S. households.
ƒ Eighteen percent of Pakistani diaspora households had annual incomes exceeding

- $140,000, the threshold for the top 10 percent of U.S. households. After India, Pakistan
and the Philippines tied for having the second-highest proportion of households in the
top decile of the U.S. household income distribution among the 15 groups in the RAD
analysis.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

I find it mildly amusing that someone from North America opened a thread to bash Brit Paks while we have stayed silent knowing that Amreekan and Kanaydian desis are decades behind us.

But let them carry on with their fantasies if it makes them feel better. It is Eid after all…

The fact that you say decades behind actually proves the initial claim that British Pakistani lack education and evidently math and reading comprehension skulls

 

[Stewie]

New York is the one of the first place immigrants come to when they land. There are not only first generation but freshly arrived immigrants. Not just Pakistanis but other groups have higher poverty levels . After a while mist move to other less competitive cities and prosper. And even in the first generation prosper . 2nd generation does way above average . I think it would be fair to see nyc 2-3 generations down the line Ina. Few decades. Overall pakistani Americans are on top.. very top is held by Indians . One of the reasons Pakistani area but lower than Indians is because in the first generation many women don’t work. That brings down the average household income. . That will go up once Pakistani women also start working down the line. 2nd generation I think most work already. So we are all good here. I can’t image where we will be once we hit 4th generation like the UK.

NYC is the first stop for a lot of these FOB immigrants primarily because NYC is the only city where you can get by without knowing how to drive and owning a car, and also has the best public transportation system in the country so you can go to work, school, etc easily.

I remember trying to take the bus to work in Texas. It was painful.

 

[Stewie]

If we want to use income as a yardstick:

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...its/pay-and-income/income-distribution/latest


73% of Pakistanis are in the bottom 2 income quintiles. (Most out of all other ethnicities in the UK)

Dont have time but maybe someone can post numbers for Pakistani BRitish with college education vs Britain in general.

 

[JaDed]

NYC is the first stop for a lot of these FOB immigrants primarily because NYC is the only city where you can get by without knowing how to drive and owning a car, and also has the best public transportation system in the country so you can go to work, school, etc easily.

I remember trying to take the bus to work in Texas. It was painful.

That is unfortunately true for Texas when I moved from Chicago to Tx the local transport was a mess had to get a car within 3 months, but it’s definitely the best place to own a car, the drives are way better.

 

[Stewie]

That is unfortunately true for Texas when I moved from Chicago to Tx the local transport was a mess had to get a car within 3 months, but it’s definitely the best place to own a car, the drives are way better.

Not if you live in the bigger metro areas. The congestion is horrible now compared to 15-20 yeas ago. It was even better back then.