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Why do you believe in God?

[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] Pushpak Vimana is mentioned in Ramayana which was written around 3 thousand years ago .It was the ancient version of a chartered plane used by Lord Ram and Sita along with their associates to fly them direct from SL to Ayodhya :))
These things are meant to be taken with a pinch of salt as anyone can predict them with ease.Honestly how hard is it for someone to claim that in future there would be this transportation device which would let people to fly in air.For instance suppose in future we are somehow able to create a time machine , would that mean HG Wells was actually making a divine prophesy when he wrote his famous novel?

We are talking about dark age.

Trick is the timeline,if you are vague enough you can "predict" almost everything.
 
Where is the evidence that corroborate actual historical events?

I'm not sure if your accustomed to analysing data or history but none of this addresses what was discussed.

Ideologies have been spread through many means but military conquest and patronage have been responsible for the overwhelming majority of this.

If you are going to present evidence it has to be rigorous enough that it would stand up to scrutiny. You've just presented statements made a millennia after actual events. If centuries down the line I make a statement does it become fact?

By the same token if someone states that religion was ONLY spread by the sword I would take them to task about the fallacy and ask for proof.

But to minimise the impact conquest, patronage, economics and geopolitics had in the spread of religion because it makes uncomfortable reading is disingenuous.


Doc I am sure these Non Muslim's made this Opinion after going through history pages. I am sure it wasn't revealed to them neither they claimed revelation.
 
Doc I am sure these Non Muslim's made this Opinion after going through history pages. I am sure it wasn't revealed to them neither they claimed revelation.

Opinion is neither proof not fact.

Either provide supporting evidence or please don't waste my time. I have no patience for such games.
 
Opinion is neither proof not fact.

Either provide supporting evidence or please don't waste my time. I have no patience for such games.


Hafiz sahib probably those writers need to revisit history :) They got brainwashed. They should have seen thw Evidence :)


Tussi Tay Ghussa Ee ker gaey o Paa Ji
 
Trick is the timeline,if you are vague enough you can "predict" almost everything.


Itsme you have not memtioned whether you are Agnostic/Aethiest/Hindu or Ex Muslim.


You think it's timeline and I guess what you mean to say is that one can adulterate history to create narrations/prophecies which never existed in first place. (Just to fool uneducated, non-intelligent folkes)


What is your opinion about ISIS related Prophecies ?


I don't want to open a Pandora Box but do you know that One of the fastest growing Faith today in 2017 in standing on fulfilment of a 1500 years old Prophecy of some Lunar & Solar Eclipses happening in month of Ramazan in 1894 & 1895 ?


If this Prophecy did not get fulfilled or if you can correct it from Scientific Record than one faith will cease to exist totally and will be gone for all money.



So God's presence can be established by two things :


1. Direct relationship with God

2. Fulfilment of the Prophecies where the claimant claimed that God has told him this and that event occurs in Future.



Otherwise God is not a physical entity and his existence can never be proved through Science.
 
Hafiz sahib probably those writers need to revisit history :) They got brainwashed. They should have seen thw Evidence :)


Tussi Tay Ghussa Ee ker gaey o Paa Ji

There is no anger, here.

I'm just perturbed that you don't seem to be able to distinguish between opinions and facts nor how to present evidence to draw conclusions.

Why don't you provide me with the references these great "intellectuals" used so we can reach our own conclusions.

Ghandi also had some disgusting beliefs on Africans. Do you agree with him on those too?

You've even referenced a speach given at an event to commemorate the Prophet. Do you actually expect an impartial critique to be presented here?

Do you or don't you know how to present evidence?
 
There is no anger, here.

I'm just perturbed that you don't seem to be able to distinguish between opinions and facts nor how to present evidence to draw conclusions.

Why don't you provide me with the references these great "intellectuals" used so we can reach our own conclusions.

Ghandi also had some disgusting beliefs on Africans. Do you agree with him on those too?

You've even referenced a speach given at an event to commemorate the Prophet. Do you actually expect an impartial critique to be presented here?

Do you or don't you know how to present evidence?



As I have said I believe they made they opinion after reading stuff. So they based their opinions on " some evidence " for which they are responsible and not me.


Going back 1500 years what would you trust ? Which Evidence ? Definitely writings of People. You can't go 1500 years back and witness things with your own eyes. No scientific lab would provide evidence in favour or against whether Islam spread by force or otherwise.


So you have the right to not agree with the " Intellectuals " and say I don't agree or they were fools or they did not read much or they tried to appease Muslims or they were diplomatic etc etc. But I did my Job. I can't dig their remains to say Hey Sir could you please tell me what was the evidence based on what he developed this Opinion ? This was their HeadAche not mine.


From Modern Day you can educate me that which Sword or Weapon is being used by Fastest growing Islamic Sect ? Than we may bridge some relationship with Past.
 
As I have said I believe they made they opinion after reading stuff. So they based their opinions on " some evidence " for which they are responsible and not me.


Going back 1500 years what would you trust ? Which Evidence ? Definitely writings of People. You can't go 1500 years back and witness things with your own eyes. No scientific lab would provide evidence in favour or against whether Islam spread by force or otherwise.


So you have the right to not agree with the " Intellectuals " and say I don't agree or they were fools or they did not read much or they tried to appease Muslims or they were diplomatic etc etc. But I did my Job. I can't dig their remains to say Hey Sir could you please tell me what was the evidence based on what he developed this Opinion ? This was their HeadAche not mine.


From Modern Day you can educate me that which Sword or Weapon is being used by Fastest growing Islamic Sect ? Than we may bridge some relationship with Past.

A history of the Arabs by Hitti, a history of Islamic societies by Lapidus and the Prophet's biography by Lings are some of the books I have read and could easily have been used to back up your claims (not mine but YOURS! I'm actually doing your job for you). Let me assure you that none of these authors dug up dead people to write these books nor did they use a time machine. They researched the relevant literature. Though, their work doesn't provide a definitive truth, they provide references which you can also analyse to draw conclusions. To draw conclusions from one or similar sources is ignorant.

In analysing history we also have to consider the impact of the revision, usually by the victors and also lost historical references such as when the Mongols ransacked Baghdad.

This begs the question, that if you couldn't provide references then obviously you hadn't researched the topic and if so why would you make a definitive statement, without research? Is this just a case of pushing a preconceived narrative?

I have mentioned that religion is mainly spread through violence, patronage, geopolitics and coercion.

The Ahmadiyya movement targets the poor and vulnerable under the guise of charity work but is blatantly missionary work, which capitalises on their frailties to further their agenda. This is especially evident in their work in Africa.

These tactics aren't exclusive to your movement but are adopted by all missionary groups unashamedly and shows the duplicitous nature of religious groups. Taking advantage of people when they are most in need.

Most if not all religious movements perpetuate a softer narrative when in a position of weakness yet become tyrannical once their power base has been established.

Just because I defend the right of the religious to practice their religion and their basic human rights in general doesn't mean I don't see through their facade.


Can you also provide the data that shows it as the fastest growing sect, as this claim is made by all proselytising groups. Then we'd have to look birth rates, and demographic data including education and socioeconomic status of new converts.
 
A history of the Arabs by Hitti, a history of Islamic societies by Lapidus and the Prophet's biography by Lings are some of the books I have read and could easily have been used to back up your claims (not mine but YOURS! I'm actually doing your job for you). Let me assure you that none of these authors dug up dead people to write these books nor did they use a time machine. They researched the relevant literature. Though, their work doesn't provide a definitive truth, they provide references which you can also analyse to draw conclusions. To draw conclusions from one or similar sources is ignorant.

In analysing history we also have to consider the impact of the revision, usually by the victors and also lost historical references such as when the Mongols ransacked Baghdad.

This begs the question, that if you couldn't provide references then obviously you hadn't researched the topic and if so why would you make a definitive statement, without research? Is this just a case of pushing a preconceived narrative?

I have mentioned that religion is mainly spread through violence, patronage, geopolitics and coercion.

The Ahmadiyya movement targets the poor and vulnerable under the guise of charity work but is blatantly missionary work, which capitalises on their frailties to further their agenda. This is especially evident in their work in Africa.

These tactics aren't exclusive to your movement but are adopted by all missionary groups unashamedly and shows the duplicitous nature of religious groups. Taking advantage of people when they are most in need.

Most if not all religious movements perpetuate a softer narrative when in a position of weakness yet become tyrannical once their power base has been established.

Just because I defend the right of the religious to practice their religion and their basic human rights in general doesn't mean I don't see through their facade.


Can you also provide the data that shows it as the fastest growing sect, as this claim is made by all proselytising groups. Then we'd have to look birth rates, and demographic data including education and socioeconomic status of new converts.


Google will help you.


1. Professor Dr.Atif Mian

2. Jonathan Butterworth

3. Adam Walker Great Britain

4. Ibrahim Noonan Ireland



Do let me know the education aswell as wealth status of these 4 people who are converts :)


And Hey African borders aren't open for 1 Sect but are open for all 72 sects aswell as other religions :)


You think it's easy to Fool someone who is PHD from MIT & was named amongst top 20 under 40 Economists of World by Times ? :-)


I am glad that from Violence, Wars & Patronage you have taken a U-turn towards poor, weak, opressed africans and charity :)


Hey Africans are getting fooled Hafiz sahib, they are getting brainwashed just like MIT PROFESSOR ;) so why don't the Atheists throw some money in their way :) charity charity :)
 
" A history of the Arabs by Hitti, a history of Islamic societies by Lapidus and the Prophet's biography by Lings are some of the books I have read and could easily have been used to back up your claims (not mine but YOURS! I'm actually doing your job for you). Let me assure you that none of these authors dug up dead people to write these books nor did they use a time machine. They researched the relevant literature. Though, their work doesn't provide a definitive truth, they provide references which you can also analyse to draw conclusions. To draw conclusions from one or similar sources is ignorant. "


So Hafiz sahib you have agreed that there are two sides of the stories ?


So Yes You cannot hide behind one side to say Ohh others including neutrals are Ignorant, liars or diplomats. Or they lack Intelligence because they haven't swimmed through Top Seller's Aethiest's piece of art (books)


And I am glad you took many hours to drift the argument from Islam spread through Sword to Charity targetting weak & opressed. :)


Ab Khoob Mehfill Jammay gee Hafiz sahib :)
 
" A history of the Arabs by Hitti, a history of Islamic societies by Lapidus and the Prophet's biography by Lings are some of the books I have read and could easily have been used to back up your claims (not mine but YOURS! I'm actually doing your job for you). Let me assure you that none of these authors dug up dead people to write these books nor did they use a time machine. They researched the relevant literature. Though, their work doesn't provide a definitive truth, they provide references which you can also analyse to draw conclusions. To draw conclusions from one or similar sources is ignorant. "


So Hafiz sahib you have agreed that there are two sides of the stories ?


So Yes You cannot hide behind one side to say Ohh others including neutrals are Ignorant, liars or diplomats. Or they lack Intelligence because they haven't swimmed through Top Seller's Aethiest's piece of art (books)


And I am glad you took many hours to drift the argument from Islam spread through Sword to Charity targetting weak & opressed. :)


Ab Khoob Mehfill Jammay gee Hafiz sahib :)

Are you going to offer anything of substance?
 
Google will help you.


1. Professor Dr.Atif Mian

2. Jonathan Butterworth

3. Adam Walker Great Britain

4. Ibrahim Noonan Ireland



Do let me know the education aswell as wealth status of these 4 people who are converts :)


And Hey African borders aren't open for 1 Sect but are open for all 72 sects aswell as other religions :)


You think it's easy to Fool someone who is PHD from MIT & was named amongst top 20 under 40 Economists of World by Times ? :-)


I am glad that from Violence, Wars & Patronage you have taken a U-turn towards poor, weak, opressed africans and charity :)


Hey Africans are getting fooled Hafiz sahib, they are getting brainwashed just like MIT PROFESSOR ;) so why don't the Atheists throw some money in their way :) charity charity :)

Once again by quoting four people you think you have made a profound statement. If I provide four academics who dismantle your faith does it make.

Did you provide the data I requested?

Did I claim the practices adopted by your sect are exclusive to you? No I specifically stated they are adopted by all and all are wrong.

Please provide evidence of this U turn. This is something I find quite offensive and you better be able to back this up.

Do you even understand the terms patronage and coercion? Are you saying your sect doesn't indulge in this?

Please show where my u turn has occurred.
 
Are you going to offer anything of substance?

Once again by quoting four people you think you have made a profound statement. If I provide four academics who dismantle your faith does it make.

Did you provide the data I requested?

Did I claim the practices adopted by your sect are exclusive to you? No I specifically stated they are adopted by all and all are wrong.

Please provide evidence of this U turn. This is something I find quite offensive and you better be able to back this up.

Do you even understand the terms patronage and coercion? Are you saying your sect doesn't indulge in this?

Please show where my u turn has occurred.


Just Like for you sources to know Islam are Islamophobes, Ex Muslims & Aethiest's or anti Islam in the same way you will quote Anti Sect elements to make a case that Jews, Christians and Agencies are providing the Patronage. Hehe I am well aware (unfortunately) so I will bin that stuff :)



You haven't answered that why other sects, religion or Agnostics, Aethiests don't do the (charity) to buy poor opressed african population ? Why Harry Potter is only allowing Access to One group ? What your group is doing to stop this brain washing ? :)



Hafiz sahib since you are a Science fan like me so could you tell me why Harry Potter botherered to fulfil this 1500 years old Prophecy in the month of Ramazan when the claimant was alive and claim was made already ? Why Daarul Qutni words were fulfilled by Harry Potter ? :)


Science Fan let me know that in last 1500 years when did these events took place in Holy Month of Ramadan in presence of any claimant ? Science would tell you surely.




This poor African from Princeton got fooled and got converted at the same age when you became an Aethiest. I guess some evidence & facts were hidden from him in the age of IT & Science.

Take a look at Atif Mian (@AtifRMian): https://twitter.com/AtifRMian?s=09

http://t.co/z41yd9Cf7y



Leaving you with Open ended questions to Ponder & Answer.
 

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Just Like for you sources to know Islam are Islamophobes, Ex Muslims & Aethiest's or anti Islam in the same way you will quote Anti Sect elements to make a case that Jews, Christians and Agencies are providing the Patronage. Hehe I am well aware (unfortunately) so I will bin that stuff :)



You haven't answered that why other sects, religion or Agnostics, Aethiests don't do the (charity) to buy poor opressed african population ? Why Harry Potter is only allowing Access to One group ? What your group is doing to stop this brain washing ? :)



Hafiz sahib since you are a Science fan like me so could you tell me why Harry Potter botherered to fulfil this 1500 years old Prophecy in the month of Ramazan when the claimant was alive and claim was made already ? Why Daarul Qutni words were fulfilled by Harry Potter ? :)


Science Fan let me know that in last 1500 years when did these events took place in Holy Month of Ramadan in presence of any claimant ? Science would tell you surely.




This poor African from Princeton got fooled and got converted at the same age when you became an Aethiest. I guess some evidence & facts were hidden from him in the age of IT & Science.

Take a look at Atif Mian (@AtifRMian): https://twitter.com/AtifRMian?s=09

http://t.co/z41yd9Cf7y



Leaving you with Open ended questions to Ponder & Answer.

Which events and prophecies are you speaking about?
 
Which events and prophecies are you speaking about?


Daarul Qutni (hadith bok)

Distinct Prophecy of He Pbuh wrt Last days (relatively) touching upon Solar & Lunar Eclipses in the month of Ramazan in presence of claim & claimant.

For Scientific history refer to the screenshot posted in last post.
 
Daarul Qutni (hadith bok)

Distinct Prophecy of He Pbuh wrt Last days (relatively) touching upon Solar & Lunar Eclipses in the month of Ramazan in presence of claim & claimant.

For Scientific history refer to the screenshot posted in last post.

Please post the hadith with source
 
Please post the hadith with source


Laala thori mehnatt khud b ker liya kerr :)


This sign is also explained in the ahadith of the Holy Prophet Muhammadsaw. He states:



حدثنا أبو سعيد الإصطخري ، ثنا محمد بن عبد الله بن نوفل ، ثنا عبيد بن يعيش، ثنا يونس بن بكير عن عمرو بن شمر عنجابر عن محمد بن علي قال : إن لمهدينا آيتين لم تكونا منذ خلق السماوات والأرض ينكسف القمر لأول ليلة من رمضان وتنكسف الشمس في النصف منه ولم تكونا منذ خلق الله السموات والأرض.



For our Mahdi (Spiritual Reformer) there are two Signs which have never occurred before since the creation of the heavens and the earth, namely, the moon will be eclipsed on the first night in Ramadhan (i.e., on the first of the nights on which a lunar eclipse can occur) and the Sun will be eclipsed on the middle day of Ramadhan (i.e., on the middle day on which a solar eclipse can occur) and these Signs have not happened since the creation of the heavens and the earth (Dar Qutni Vol.1, p.188)
 
Laala thori mehnatt khud b ker liya kerr :)


This sign is also explained in the ahadith of the Holy Prophet Muhammadsaw. He states:



حدثنا أبو سعيد الإصطخري ، ثنا محمد بن عبد الله بن نوفل ، ثنا عبيد بن يعيش، ثنا يونس بن بكير عن عمرو بن شمر عنجابر عن محمد بن علي قال : إن لمهدينا آيتين لم تكونا منذ خلق السماوات والأرض ينكسف القمر لأول ليلة من رمضان وتنكسف الشمس في النصف منه ولم تكونا منذ خلق الله السموات والأرض.



For our Mahdi (Spiritual Reformer) there are two Signs which have never occurred before since the creation of the heavens and the earth, namely, the moon will be eclipsed on the first night in Ramadhan (i.e., on the first of the nights on which a lunar eclipse can occur) and the Sun will be eclipsed on the middle day of Ramadhan (i.e., on the middle day on which a solar eclipse can occur) and these Signs have not happened since the creation of the heavens and the earth (Dar Qutni Vol.1, p.188)

And i am guessing Mirza Ghulam is the Mahdi?
 
And i am guessing Mirza Ghulam is the Mahdi?


Laala there are multiple prophecies fulfilled.

Don't be bothered about Imam Mehdi. Your first step has to to accept a God Creator Allah. Once you are able to than you will have to chose a religion and than go for personalities.


There are Prophecies & Mubahilaaz of Alexander Dowee, Pandatt Lekh Ram, Zia etc etc so many.


The reason I touched upon fulfilment of Divine Prophecies is that it establishes existence of Allah, Mohammad Rasool Allah Pbuh & his claim to be a Prophet is proven True and Islam is proven True. So in case you are not close to Allah personally have no living relationship with HIM than what is left for you to believe in a living GOD ? Only fulfilment of Allah's words which were claimed by Divine figures to be revealed to them by ALLAH. Otherwise Science ? No way can it prove existence of a Being which doesn't exist in 3 dimemsional space and isn't matter.


Khuda ko Dhoondna hai tou Chajj se dhoondo. Jesay Wali ullahs ka saffar tha. Aethiest's ki kitaaboun mein tumhein khuda nai milne waala perho beshak zaroor.


Baaqi Mohammad Pbuh ko unki life mein ya even 100 saam baad dunya ki kitni population ne maan liya tha despite prophecies fulfilment ?


Quran says : Waa Aksarahumm Laa Youmenoon. The Majority does not believe so if Majority does not believe still its insignificant in the domain of religion but the spreading of message for Saaed Fitrat people will not stop until Qayamatt.
 
Just Like for you sources to know Islam are Islamophobes, Ex Muslims & Aethiest's or anti Islam in the same way you will quote Anti Sect elements to make a case that Jews, Christians and Agencies are providing the Patronage. Hehe I am well aware (unfortunately) so I will bin that stuff :)



You haven't answered that why other sects, religion or Agnostics, Aethiests don't do the (charity) to buy poor opressed african population ? Why Harry Potter is only allowing Access to One group ? What your group is doing to stop this brain washing ? :)



Hafiz sahib since you are a Science fan like me so could you tell me why Harry Potter botherered to fulfil this 1500 years old Prophecy in the month of Ramazan when the claimant was alive and claim was made already ? Why Daarul Qutni words were fulfilled by Harry Potter ? :)


Science Fan let me know that in last 1500 years when did these events took place in Holy Month of Ramadan in presence of any claimant ? Science would tell you surely.




This poor African from Princeton got fooled and got converted at the same age when you became an Aethiest. I guess some evidence & facts were hidden from him in the age of IT & Science.

Take a look at Atif Mian (@AtifRMian): https://twitter.com/AtifRMian?s=09

http://t.co/z41yd9Cf7y



Leaving you with Open ended questions to Ponder & Answer.

Once cornered you have to resort to diversionary tactics and blantant lies. It's very reflective of the approach your ilk take.

Please provide all the proof you claim. You haven't provided a single thing so far. Unlike you I am more than happy to change my view based on evidence, rather than have preconceived views and then looking for a narrative that supports it.

Don't bin anything. Bring it all to light.

I have repeatedly stated all religious groups indulge in underhanded missionary work, yet you keep trying to shift the focus. Why do you feel the need to do this? Why do you keep asking that I haven't stated so, when I clearly have in the original post?

This was in response to your claim that your sect is the fastest growing. I have asked for proof and a demographic breakdown of the converts. I provided an explanation to the tactics used by religious who then in turn portray these conversions as purely down to the intellectual weight of their argument. Which is a blatant lie.

Now that the rouse has been exposed you're trying to drag the debate in to the textual minutiae of theology. Such tactics won't work here. Vague theological statements spun to fit your narrative mean very little if the authenticity of the the original source can't be verified. In basic English, it makes no sense to use a vague man-made text to prove an even more absurd notion, in the hope of increasing control of a grefater number of vulnerable people. Why are you afraid of sticking to the facts?
 
Once cornered you have to resort to diversionary tactics and blantant lies. It's very reflective of the approach your ilk take.

Please provide all the proof you claim. You haven't provided a single thing so far. Unlike you I am more than happy to change my view based on evidence, rather than have preconceived views and then looking for a narrative that supports it.

Don't bin anything. Bring it all to light.

I have repeatedly stated all religious groups indulge in underhanded missionary work, yet you keep trying to shift the focus. Why do you feel the need to do this? Why do you keep asking that I haven't stated so, when I clearly have in the original post?

This was in response to your claim that your sect is the fastest growing. I have asked for proof and a demographic breakdown of the converts. I provided an explanation to the tactics used by religious who then in turn portray these conversions as purely down to the intellectual weight of their argument. Which is a blatant lie.

Now that the rouse has been exposed you're trying to drag the debate in to the textual minutiae of theology. Such tactics won't work here. Vague theological statements spun to fit your narrative mean very little if the authenticity of the the original source can't be verified. In basic English, it makes no sense to use a vague man-made text to prove an even more absurd notion, in the hope of increasing control of a grefater number of vulnerable people. Why are you afraid of sticking to the facts?


I think you have been on Pakpassion for many more years than Me so you should know the rules better than me.

You should know that this forum is read and has significant traffic from Pakistan so PTA rules apply aswell. (Get it Checked)


If you are interested in reading stories of Converts than there are texts aswell as Videos available on Internet which you can search easily. I do not intend to Post then here rage buddies and get myself banned. Got it ?


I have always maintained that GOD is not a physical entity, not a matter or form of it, does not exist in three dimensional space Hence HE or His existence cannot be proven through SCIENCE. Should I remind you this through my posts or are you ok with it ??


Than I enlightened you that People believe on GOD for two ressons :


1. They have direct relatiinship with HIM like Waliullah's so through True dreams, Kashaf's, Royaas etc God's existence is established on them.

or


2. Fulfillment of Prophet's Divine Prophecies is another mean of Prople believing in GOD.


Yes I know a significant number believes in GOD because there religious texts or parents, teachers, scholars fed them for years that GOD exists and is the Creator and Supreme Higher Power.


While we were having debates on these lines You started taking digs and hurled accusations which are favourite ones of Ex Muslims, Aethiests & Islamophobes.


And first one was as usual that Islam Spread through Wars. Meaning thereby through force without people accepting it through free will or through conviction.


I provided you with writings/statements of 6 plus well known Non Muslims of Last 100-200 years who all disagreed with you. I provided references and I did not create those statements. At this you made a foolish request. Yeah foolish demand that I should provide the Evidence which was the reason for those people believing so or stating so or why they had such views ?


There are many Biographies written on My Beloved Mohammad Rasool Allah Pbuh. Tons by Non Muslims. Plus History has always been documented by people of religion, neutrals or enemies of religion. So those " Intellectuals " would have said so about Mohammad Pbuh & Islam based on their reading sources. I can't did their remains to ask them what was the reason why they said so.



I have no issues with you or other Aethiests, Agnostics, Islamophobes believing in events narrated by others or believing in alternate facts which suit you or your brain. Afterall that is why you are Anti Islam, Anti God. Your belief does not harm me. You keep on believing that Islam Spread through Wars and by force but I will keep on posting other POV's and POV which click my mind.


I gave you example of faith spreading in world without Sword, Weapons in last 130 years. And than your argument shifted from Wars to poor, weak, opressed africans being targetted by one group of plannet earth through Charity being the cause of spreading of faith.

I raised questions as to whether only that group/sect does charity on earth ? Other sects are barred from entering Africa ? Why can't Aethiests, Agnostics & people of other sects do this charity and stop people getting " brainwashed " towards one ideology ? You had no answer to it. Not surprising for me.


Than you took another turn :) and your argument was that first people of religion do this and spread like this but once they get into majority ie they become a force than their ways change and than barbaric stuff is their mean of conquering people and ruling people.


Your argument fails massively because you and people like you claim that Ghazwa e Baddar, Ohad, Tabooq etc etc were the reason for Islam and people of Islam getting hold of other belief systems through forceful conversions.

First these events did not took place 130 years after Islam inceptions.

Secondly Muslims were and remained a minority in World before and after those Wars.


So going by your logic of present first they should have waited for some hundred years to get into majority (relatively) and than use Force to impose their beliefs on others ie change their means and SOP's in their World Operations.



For the part of fulfilment of Prophecies being the reason for People believing in Prophets & Allah and religion being True I provided evidence of a 1500 years old narration getting fulfilled when a group/sect was hardly few hundred or few thousand at most in first 5 years. Provided Hadith to Heisenberg in one Post and provided Scientific Evidence screenshots to you that How those Divine events took place.


After that major Divine fulfillment of He Pbuh Prophecy the numbers got soared up significantly. Since at that time there was No Phone, Fax or Internet so spreading of the message took much more time than today.


When Divine Prophecies get fulfilled than not only God's existence gets proven to people but the Man who claimed that GOD told me this this is also proven right.


Whether it is the ISIS related Prophecy or the Solar Lunar Eclipse Ramazan specific Prophecy it proved the Truthfulness of Mohammad Pbuh aswell as his Source Allah.


And not two but Multiple Prophecies of He Pbuh got fulfilled in last 1500 years.


Can you Prophesise that a person will die within these many days or a specific day if he does not withdraw his claim to be divine ? Or does not say sorry to GOD and does not submit for forgiveness ? Pinpoint such prophecies of a Man got fulfilled in letter and spirit in last 130 years. So who told him those things ? Harry Potter ?


Can you Prophesise (as a Jaahil wrt Worldly education) that in coming Winter an Epidemic which hasn't hit the world in last 300 Yesrs is returning and thousands of the area around me will die of it while God has told me that people of your house will be safe ? Can you do this guess work if you only went to school for 4-5 years ??? More than 2 lac people of the region died of Plague following winter and those promised to be saved got saved.


Thousands who read the published Advertisement saw with their own eyes the events which took place as per the Prophecy and than they joined hands and accepted the person.


Yeah Yeah Harry Potter was the source of News :)



As Far as the Numbers and Demography is concerned use internet. If you have any issues than Complain to Google aswell as those who have provided them evidence. I hope they listen to your " Alternate Facts " & counter evidences and take down the claims :)


Just to educate you years back it was " Bahai Movement "



Feel free to contact princeston foor African with Blue tick account to ask him about his dukhyaari and how he got brainwashed :)


I can give you hundreds & thousands of examples of people who converted while they were financially from upper middle or elite class and had degrees from Top notch education schools. Ibrahim Noonan had just begun his PHD when he got converted and at this age coming fall He is going to start his PHD from a top school.



I do not intend to drag this debate further with you. If you want to than stick with Science since only thing common between you and me in this debate is " Science " so do let me know that in dark ages people used to predict Solar & Lunar Eclipses on soecific dates of a certain Month :)

I do not want Prophecies regarding elections or football matches :)
 
I have read about Mirza Ghulam in the past couple of days.
[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION], do you believe Mirza Ghulam is a Prophet of Islam?
 
I have read about Mirza Ghulam in the past couple of days.
[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION], do you believe Mirza Ghulam is a Prophet of Islam?


Yes I believe that He AS was the Messiah of Last days which multiple religions awaited and He was a non law bearing Prophet & an Imam Mehdi as per Islam.


And Yes I know that Millions agree with me and Billions disagree with me including Islamic Majority ie 72 Sects of Islam.
 
Yes I believe that He AS was the Messiah of Last days which multiple religions awaited and He was a non law bearing Prophet & an Imam Mehdi as per Islam.


And Yes I know that Millions agree with me and Billions disagree with me including Islamic Majority ie 72 Sects of Islam.

Thanks.
 
I have always maintained that GOD is not a physical entity, not a matter or form of it, does not exist in three dimensional space Hence HE or His existence cannot be proven through SCIENCE. Should I remind you this through my posts or are you ok with it ??

What is the evidence for such an overarching statement?? - We have not seen anything that is not matter or energy. We have not experience direct or indirect evidence of God, why we should believe or take such philosophies seriously??

Again to prove this statement, I don't want to hear more statements, weather they are from holy text or not, that does not matter. I want data, evidence.
 

Welcome.

What is the evidence for such an overarching statement?? - We have not seen anything that is not matter or energy. We have not experience direct or indirect evidence of God, why we should believe or take such philosophies seriously??

Again to prove this statement, I don't want to hear more statements, weather they are from holy text or not, that does not matter. I want data, evidence.


There is no such matter which exists sk there is no data and no evidence.

It's my choice to take those philosophies, personal experiences and fulfilment of prophecies to take seriously.

You as an aethiest are not forced to either believe or take them seriously. So it doesn't matter me.


You are not bothered by religious texts no problem. I have zero issues having said that you can express your views and I can express my views.
 
There is no such matter which exists sk there is no data and no evidence.

It's my choice to take those philosophies, personal experiences and fulfilment of prophecies to take seriously.

You as an aethiest are not forced to either believe or take them seriously. So it doesn't matter me.


You are not bothered by religious texts no problem. I have zero issues having said that you can express your views and I can express my views.


I have no problem whatever people believing at personal level. Issue is when religion gets protection/respect (bar from criticism) and forced upon everybody as principle policy framework. You cannot build foundation of society on such outdate ideology, without audit/review, this is the main battle between Atheists and Religion as an institutions. You would not see Atheist going after old(died out) religions, Gods like Thor/Zeus. There are good moral lesson in many fiction literature, something like GOT as well, but making it a principle policy framework for society is not acceptable.
 
I have no problem whatever people believing at personal level. Issue is when religion gets protection/respect (bar from criticism) and forced upon everybody as principle policy framework. You cannot build foundation of society on such outdate ideology, without audit/review, this is the main battle between Atheists and Religion as an institutions. You would not see Atheist going after old(died out) religions, Gods like Thor/Zeus. There are good moral lesson in many fiction literature, something like GOT as well, but making it a principle policy framework for society is not acceptable.


We have previously agreed on PP that State should have nothing to do with religion. I stand with it.
 
Laala there are multiple prophecies fulfilled.

Don't be bothered about Imam Mehdi. Your first step has to to accept a God Creator Allah. Once you are able to than you will have to chose a religion and than go for personalities.


There are Prophecies & Mubahilaaz of Alexander Dowee, Pandatt Lekh Ram, Zia etc etc so many.


The reason I touched upon fulfilment of Divine Prophecies is that it establishes existence of Allah, Mohammad Rasool Allah Pbuh & his claim to be a Prophet is proven True and Islam is proven True. So in case you are not close to Allah personally have no living relationship with HIM than what is left for you to believe in a living GOD ? Only fulfilment of Allah's words which were claimed by Divine figures to be revealed to them by ALLAH. Otherwise Science ? No way can it prove existence of a Being which doesn't exist in 3 dimemsional space and isn't matter.


Khuda ko Dhoondna hai tou Chajj se dhoondo. Jesay Wali ullahs ka saffar tha. Aethiest's ki kitaaboun mein tumhein khuda nai milne waala perho beshak zaroor.


Baaqi Mohammad Pbuh ko unki life mein ya even 100 saam baad dunya ki kitni population ne maan liya tha despite prophecies fulfilment ?


Quran says : Waa Aksarahumm Laa Youmenoon. The Majority does not believe so if Majority does not believe still its insignificant in the domain of religion but the spreading of message for Saaed Fitrat people will not stop until Qayamatt.

Are you really serious about that being a prophecy? If you are not having a laugh then let's start with the authenticity of the Hadith. Why is it rejected by mainstream Islam and why do you think they are wrong about rejecting it?

Who are the narrators? On the A'isha Hadith you copy pasted a link about how it was narrated by only one person - which wasn't true - so how many narrators are there of this Hadith? When we can establish the legitimacy of this Hadith we can move on to the actual message and prophecy in it.

Lastly, before coming up with a reply, remember you rejected a Sahih and authentic hadith with multiple narrators from one of the most trustworthy books and here you are coming up with something that you can't even link to an original source. All because it suits your argument. Let's be real now.
 
Are you really serious about that being a prophecy? If you are not having a laugh then let's start with the authenticity of the Hadith. Why is it rejected by mainstream Islam and why do you think they are wrong about rejecting it?

Who are the narrators? On the A'isha Hadith you copy pasted a link about how it was narrated by only one person - which wasn't true - so how many narrators are there of this Hadith? When we can establish the legitimacy of this Hadith we can move on to the actual message and prophecy in it.

Lastly, before coming up with a reply, remember you rejected a Sahih and authentic hadith with multiple narrators from one of the most trustworthy books and here you are coming up with something that you can't even link to an original source. All because it suits your argument. Let's be real now.


Laala I am tired of religious debates at present. Yes seriously. Takes lots of time along with energy so I want to enjoy Cricket, Gym & political talk at present.


Would be my last reply in this and threads like this for sometime.


When these eclipses took place than there was a Punjabi Newspaper called " Zimeendaar " which used to get published from Lahore. It quoted Mullah's saying :

" Hunn Tayy Loqaan Ne Mirzay Nuu Mann Lena Aey "


Fortunately as per Divine plans Alhamdoulillah aesa he hua after that which is very very unfortunate for opponents of the Claimant. :)


Since you aren't a duffer or less intelligent folk so I am shocked at you discussing authenticity of a Prophecy contained in Hadith.


If Today I say that there will be Lunar plus Solar eclipse on X dates in Y month in the last of times with Science of the day being zero and Me having no scientific help or clue than for next 1000 years people can debate whether this hadith is true or false authentic or non authentic etc etc since it isn't in Bukhari or in Muslim.


But once that event takes place and is visible to ordinary people as well as people of science than only a stupid folk will question authencity of Hadith because what was written in hadith happened physically yeah physically.


Without going into further details please read Opinions/writings/beliefs of Reformers of Ahl e Sunnat who have died 200 years ago or even before that. They had also mentioned this " Prophecy ' this Hadith of He Pbuh. Now only a fool will say that a Mujjaddid a reformer of Islam did not know that Darul Qutni hadith is not worth it. Surety Mujaddid/Reformers know more than ordinary muslims or Islamic Scholars.


One of the famous Reformer of Islam even mentioned Prophecised famous Plague Epidemic in the time of Mehdi. That Reformer died 400 years ago.


So Yes Read stuff in favour or against both. All available on Internet. Use proxies to open blocked websites.


No more discussion with tired TSPK. Stay blessed and hope to see you in non religious threads aswell. Between I just loved your post on Seborrhic Dermititis and I hope it does wonders for Hamza. May Allah (if he exists :) ) give Jazaaey Kheir to you. Aameen.
 
A history of the Arabs by Hitti, a history of Islamic societies by Lapidus and the Prophet's biography by Lings are some of the books I have read and could easily have been used to back up your claims (not mine but YOURS! I'm actually doing your job for you). Let me assure you that none of these authors dug up dead people to write these books nor did they use a time machine. They researched the relevant literature. Though, their work doesn't provide a definitive truth, they provide references which you can also analyse to draw conclusions. To draw conclusions from one or similar sources is ignorant.

In analysing history we also have to consider the impact of the revision, usually by the victors and also lost historical references such as when the Mongols ransacked Baghdad.

This begs the question, that if you couldn't provide references then obviously you hadn't researched the topic and if so why would you make a definitive statement, without research? Is this just a case of pushing a preconceived narrative?

I have mentioned that religion is mainly spread through violence, patronage, geopolitics and coercion.

The Ahmadiyya movement targets the poor and vulnerable under the guise of charity work but is blatantly missionary work, which capitalises on their frailties to further their agenda. This is especially evident in their work in Africa.

These tactics aren't exclusive to your movement but are adopted by all missionary groups unashamedly and shows the duplicitous nature of religious groups. Taking advantage of people when they are most in need.

Most if not all religious movements perpetuate a softer narrative when in a position of weakness yet become tyrannical once their power base has been established.

Just because I defend the right of the religious to practice their religion and their basic human rights in general doesn't mean I don't see through their facade.


Can you also provide the data that shows it as the fastest growing sect, as this claim is made by all proselytising groups. Then we'd have to look birth rates, and demographic data including education and socioeconomic status of new converts.

What is the agenda which they want to further ?
 
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