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Why has Doosra only recently been developed while Googly was around for ages?

Badsha

T20I Debutant
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Runs
8,072
I don't think I quite get it. Both are wrong 'uns. The same way a leggie, bowls a googly, could it not easily have been imitated by all an offie?

All these years, offie's didn't think to ball wrong 'uns?

Also, what is the difference between a leggie bowling a googly or a a leggie bowling an off spin delivery.

An off spinner like Murali (who uses his wrist) could easily bowl a Leggie too... so what's the difference between his "leggie and Dossra"

So many questions! :saqi
 
It's an interesting question. I will try and answer though I think [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] would be much better at answering, their knowledge is far greater than mine and I find myself learning from their posts.

Before Murali, the entire concept of an off-spinner was someone who blocked the flow of runs. Sure, they got wickets if the pitch was spinning, but on the whole, they were there to provide quick overs and block runs, mostly before the new ball was available. While there were some attacking spinners, none were really innovative.

Murali was the true attacking offspinner, and he developed the googly, and the rest is history.
 
It's an interesting question. I will try and answer though I think [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] would be much better at answering, their knowledge is far greater than mine and I find myself learning from their posts.

Before Murali, the entire concept of an off-spinner was someone who blocked the flow of runs. Sure, they got wickets if the pitch was spinning, but on the whole, they were there to provide quick overs and block runs, mostly before the new ball was available. While there were some attacking spinners, none were really innovative.

Murali was the true attacking offspinner, and he developed the googly, and the rest is history.

Murali was an offie. He bowled doosras not googly. Besides, I don't get how his "doosra" was a big feat given he was a wrist spinner.

In other words, was Murali just a leggie who bowled a googly every delivery until he bowled a proper leggie?


Off Spin was a dying art but according to Michael Atherton Saqi was the one who brought it back to mainstream attention. I'm talking about proper finger spinning off
 
Murali was an offie. He bowled doosras not googly. Besides, I don't get how his "doosra" was a big feat given he was a wrist spinner.

In other words, was Murali just a leggie who bowled a googly every delivery until he bowled a proper leggie?


Off Spin was a dying art but according to Michael Atherton Saqi was the one who brought it back to mainstream attention. I'm talking about proper finger spinning off

I meant Doosra and Saqlain, but can't edit. Had made another point about Murali, went back to delete, and made a mess. Now outside 2 minute period
 
Because googly can be bowled by back of the hand without changing action while dobara cannot be bowled easily, actually apart from Saqlain I don't think any bowler has bowled legally .
I was a left arm orthodox spinner, and I am telling you that you can't bowl doosra with same action without chucking. Carton ball and slider are the delivery that can be bowled legally but your action will going to change while delivering that bowl.
Saqlain was the first one that I saw bowling doosra and was only the one player who did it legally.
 
It's an interesting question. I will try and answer though I think [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] would be much better at answering, their knowledge is far greater than mine and I find myself learning from their posts.

Before Murali, the entire concept of an off-spinner was someone who blocked the flow of runs. Sure, they got wickets if the pitch was spinning, but on the whole, they were there to provide quick overs and block runs, mostly before the new ball was available. While there were some attacking spinners, none were really innovative.
Correcting here

Saqlain was the first person to innovate as an off spinner and Murali copied the Doosra off him to more devastating effect. Before these two, off spinners did not dream of innovation or being the main wicket taking bowlers. Saqlain was devastating, but it was Murali who truly changed the role of the off spinner and made him an attacking threat.

Previously, teams had no issue playing two attacking leggies, if needed. Now we think of variety.
[MENTION=74419]Badsha[/MENTION] (Corrected here)
 
The action between leg and off spin deliveries are DIFFERENT. they can be easily spotted by batsmen hence why leggies don't bowl off spin, they bowl GOOGLY. and Googly and Doosra are completely different things. I don't know why you think they are the same!!!
 
I don't think I quite get it. Both are wrong 'uns. The same way a leggie, bowls a googly, could it not easily have been imitated by all an offie?

All these years, offie's didn't think to ball wrong 'uns?

Also, what is the difference between a leggie bowling a googly or a a leggie bowling an off spin delivery.

An off spinner like Murali (who uses his wrist) could easily bowl a Leggie too... so what's the difference between his "leggie and Dossra"

So many questions! :saqi

what do you mean recently? The inventor of doosra Saqlain Mushtaq has been retired long time ago
 
The action between leg and off spin deliveries are DIFFERENT. they can be easily spotted by batsmen hence why leggies don't bowl off spin, they bowl GOOGLY. and Googly and Doosra are completely different things. I don't know why you think they are the same!!!


They are different but they are the same in the sense they go the other way. Also, off spinners have different actions. Murali was wrist while Saqi was fingers
 
what do you mean recently? The inventor of doosra Saqlain Mushtaq has been retired long time ago

In cricketing history, the 90s is pretty recent. Given Googly was developed a century ago.
 
Because googly can be bowled by back of the hand without changing action while dobara cannot be bowled easily, actually apart from Saqlain I don't think any bowler has bowled legally .
I was a left arm orthodox spinner, and I am telling you that you can't bowl doosra with same action without chucking. Carton ball and slider are the delivery that can be bowled legally but your action will going to change while delivering that bowl.
Saqlain was the first one that I saw bowling doosra and was only the one player who did it legally.

Ah to be honest this post makes sense.

So the point then is that the doosra doesn't actually exist? Saqi was able to pull it off and the rest are taking liberties?
 
They are different but they are the same in the sense they go the other way. Also, off spinners have different actions. Murali was wrist while Saqi was fingers

Yes you are right on the first sentence. Maybe its easier for leg break action to bowl quality googly. Wrist spinners and finger spinners is maybe harder for their doosra. Murali was not a traditional off spinner because he used his wrists to add revs like Leggies do. Usually offies use their fingers.

Off spin has way few revs, flight, etc. compared to leg spin. maybe thats why off spin hasn't really developed over the years.
 
Ah to be honest this post makes sense.

So the point then is that the doosra doesn't actually exist? Saqi was able to pull it off and the rest are taking liberties?

Saqlain invented a unique grip from which he was able to bowl doosra. However Carrom ball existed before Doosra. I think Carrom Ball can be bowled legally
 
Saqlain invented a unique grip from which he was able to bowl doosra. However Carrom ball existed before Doosra. I think Carrom Ball can be bowled legally

Yes, you are right. Carrom ball was probably invented decades ago by this bloke from Australia.



main-qimg-2d443766acb55d13e4d1ff9e5fac2f2a.jpg
 
I think it's all got to do with late 90s bowlers taking huge liberty with their bowling actions. Don't forget Doosra remained a controversial delivery for a long while when the white countries thought it couldn't be bowled legally at all.


Concept wise the two deliveries might sound the same but in actual googly comes more naturally to a leggie than a doosra does to an offie.
 
It's an interesting question. I will try and answer though I think [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] would be much better at answering, their knowledge is far greater than mine and I find myself learning from their posts.

Before Murali, the entire concept of an off-spinner was someone who blocked the flow of runs. Sure, they got wickets if the pitch was spinning, but on the whole, they were there to provide quick overs and block runs, mostly before the new ball was available. While there were some attacking spinners, none were really innovative.

Murali was the true attacking offspinner, and he developed the googly, and the rest is history.

Oooh dear! Rhodes, then Laker and Lock, and also Ramadhin and Valentine would tell you otherwise.

The wrist-spinner's 'wrong-un' was invented by Bosanquet in the nineteen-teens.

Saqlain Mushtaq invented the doosra.
 
Oooh dear! Rhodes, then Laker and Lock, and also Ramadhin and Valentine would tell you otherwise.

The wrist-spinner's 'wrong-un' was invented by Bosanquet in the nineteen-teens.

Saqlain Mushtaq invented the doosra.

Hmm that's some more good info.

So I guess the conclusion is getting the ball to turn the other way WHILE finger spinning the ball like an offie was something not possible due to bowling action constrains and saqi has been the only one to do it without controversy?
 
Oooh dear! Rhodes, then Laker and Lock, and also Ramadhin and Valentine would tell you otherwise.

The wrist-spinner's 'wrong-un' was invented by Bosanquet in the nineteen-teens.

Saqlain Mushtaq invented the doosra.

And this is why I wanted to hear more from those above.

Do tell more.

Laker is England's best off-spinner before Swann right?
 
The reason why off-spinners didn't try and bowl doosras earlier is because they would have thought it was cheating. You cannot bowl a doosra without straightening your arm, thus it's manifestly throwing. Saqlain had the cleanest action while bowling the doosra but even he wasn't averse to throwing it from time to time. It's an illegal delivery, and the game is all the better for having eradicated this menace over the last three years.
 
Because very few people can bowl the doosra legally. It was an absolute joke about half a decade ago when every second offie in international cricket was chucking
 
And this is why I wanted to hear more from those above.

Do tell more.

Laker is England's best off-spinner before Swann right?

Some would say he was the best England produced. He got nineteen wickets in a test. Admittedly there were more turning wickets in England then. There were no new balls so County sides had two quicks and three spinners like India at home.

Lock was his Surrey and England mate, but the Aussies thought he was a chucker.

Hadley Verity was another top English spinner but he was killed in WW2.

Ramadhin and Valentine bowled WI to their first ever test win in England, in 1950. Someone wrote a calypso about it. England got revenge on the next tour of the Caribbean though - May and Cowdrey put on about 400 and the Windies spinners lost confidence after that.

Swann is an interesting one because he benefitted from a recent change in the lbw law. He got big drift away from the right hander so could beat the bat on both sides.
 
I don't think I quite get it. Both are wrong 'uns. The same way a leggie, bowls a googly, could it not easily have been imitated by all an offie?

All these years, offie's didn't think to ball wrong 'uns?

Also, what is the difference between a leggie bowling a googly or a a leggie bowling an off spin delivery.

An off spinner like Murali (who uses his wrist) could easily bowl a Leggie too... so what's the difference between his "leggie and Dossra"

So many questions! :saqi

A leggie bowling a wrist spinning leg break angles the back of the hand to slips to get a leg break, towards the batsman to get top spin and towards leg slip to get the googly all while approaching his crease from a 45 degree angle. The most important attribute a leggie can have is control, drift and dip in the air to make the ball land just before where the batsman would expect. Having control and at least 1 variation is something no leggie can do without. So it’s very natural for a leggie to seek out this control and variation when he is learning. Of course you can have less spin and over spin (generated if you have the front of the palm open faced towards the batsman and release from around your hip tossed up.

An off spinner like Graeme Swann would also approach the crease at a 45 degree angle to get drift control and turn with an arm ball as a variation. The back of his hand is facing square leg and he will do something like a karate chop towards the batsman. The over spin may be generated by engaging the thumb (harbhajan) or third finger. Any off spinner will seek out these variations.

A doosra bowling off spinner would have to be very unconventional and do something which is not natural to him from early development. First this:

If you practice with a splay ball (very heavy rubber ball with no stitching) and approach the wicket very straight from behind the umpire but release with your third finger and have the back the hand facing the batsman you will get massive over spin but your arm will be a little bent. If you now have the same approach and action but turn your back of hand towards 1st or 2nd slip then it’s how the doosra is bowled but your elbow will be bent significantly ala ajmal.

Of course an off spinner in this situation like saqlain has to learn that the turning of the wrist to slips has to engage knees, hips and shoulder so firstly the elbow doesn’t bend and secondly the batsman can’t pick up change in release. But having said that saqi was not so difficult to pick once you knew what you were looking for and once his knees gave way.

So because the doosra requires undoing all that is natural and borderline illegal due to the elbow bending I think unless you are double jointed and develop from an early age I think it deters off spinners thus delaying the development of that type of doosra.
 
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