Why Indian Hindutva supporters back Israel on Gaza bombing

[IMMY69]

The classic ignoring pak use of non-state actors as a policy tool. If pak doesn't use terrorism as a policy tool, India wouldn't have to carry out balakot strike.

Of course that how it would sound to you. because you think Pak/Islam can do no wrong. You after all called Bin laden freedom fighter.

Which is the sort of response Hamas wanted, so they could continue doing what they want.

Tell me, when Hamas sits around a table with US and Israeli officials in Qatar, Egypt and anywhere else in the world to hammer out a cease fire deal what must the Israeli's feel sitting in front of these "murderous lunatics"?

It intrigues me because as far as I know, nobody from the west sat down with Osama or ISIS to discuss peace

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The classic ignoring pak use of non-state actors as a policy tool. If pak doesn't use terrorism as a policy tool, India wouldn't have to carry out balakot strike.

Of course that how it would sound to you. because you think Pak/Islam can do no wrong. You after all called Bin laden freedom fighter.

Which is the sort of response Hamas wanted, so they could continue doing what they want.

Can you explain why India does not recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation?

It's one thing to call out a poster on a forum. You have jumped up and down for many months along with others about Pakistani opinion.

Are you putting pressure on your government on the same way you rant and rave here? Do you agree with the Israelis when they call on India to state that Hamas are terrorists?

 

[HalBass9]

You are avoiding a direct answer to a simple question. I'm not asking what is a solution the conflict raging for 70+ years.

I asked, what IYO opinion should have been israel's response to 10/7 attack?

You are seeking answers that fall into your preconceived beliefs.

Neither October 7th nor Israel's response should be viewed as if whatever happened occurred in a vacuum. This conflict cannot be examined without context.

You are presenting an argument in a way that suggests only Israel has the right to respond indiscriminately, while Palestine, which has been subjugated by occupation and apartheid, has no right to resist.

Your question highlights a crucial point regarding the concept of self-defense and aggression in conflicts. If Israel initiated aggression on October 6th, then its subsequent response may not be considered a legitimate act of self-defense.

 

[HalBass9]

Actually I will go a little further and say that these RSS lot actually think their situation is aligned to Israel's.

They want Isreal to take over Gaza and the West Bank so they can use it as a blue print to take over POK.

I honestly think these fascists cannot differential between Palestinians and Pakistani's. To them they're all the same.

The real issue is not whether they're able to call out genocide but whether they can commit it themselves and get away with it

You are spot on.

 

[HalBass9]

The classic ignoring pak use of non-state actors as a policy tool. If pak doesn't use terrorism as a policy tool, India wouldn't have to carry out balakot strike.

Of course that how it would sound to you. because you think Pak/Islam can do no wrong. You after all called Bin laden freedom fighter.

Which is the sort of response Hamas wanted, so they could continue doing what they want.

Utilizing non-state actors is a practice common to every nation globally. While you may present it as a novel point, it's a fundamental concept understood by everyone in this forum, and India adheres to this pattern as well.

 

[rpant_gabba]

Tell me, when Hamas sits around a table with US and Israeli officials in Qatar, Egypt and anywhere else in the world to hammer out a cease fire deal what must the Israeli's feel sitting in front of these "murderous lunatics"?

It intrigues me because as far as I know, nobody from the west sat down with Osama or ISIS to discuss peace

No clue. Its a mess. I'm aware of Israel's hand in trying to play PA and Hamas against each other. At this point there is no face saving way for them to disengage from each other.

Creation of Israel was a headache (relatively speaking) which was turned into a head trauma by Arab invasion which was then turned into catastrophe by israel's response.

Things haven't gotten better

 

[rpant_gabba]

Utilizing non-state actors is a practice common to every nation globally. While you may present it as a novel point, it's a fundamental concept understood by everyone in this forum,

Oh please. You have been spouting this nonsense repeatedly.

Gimme examples of other countries which emulate Pak behavior

and India adheres to this pattern as well.

Claim that pak has been spouting forever without a shred of evidence

 

[rpant_gabba]

Can you explain why India does not recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation?

India did not call PLO as a terrorist organization either while the rest of the world did.

In fact India voted against partition of Palestine. India has enough stuff to worry about and has condemned the events of 10/7.

India's view: Brits, Yanks and Arabs created this problem. Let them solve it.

It's one thing to call out a poster on a forum. You have jumped up and down for many months along with others about Pakistani opinion.

Not sure where you are going with this. Pakistani govt pays lip service to palestinian cause while it has provided soldiers to murder them in Jordan.

Are you putting pressure on your government on the same way you rant and rave here?

Ranting and raving? thats your view. All I'm doing to asking very simple question and pointing out inconsistencies. What makes you think India is my govt?

Do you agree with the Israelis when they call on India to state that Hamas are terrorists?

When has Israel called on India to declare Hamas as terrorists?

Israel and India have had god relationship even when India was supporting PLO and Arafat.


Let me put the same question that I have put to others.

IYO, what should have been Israels response to 10/7?

 

[HalBass9]

Oh please. You have been spouting this nonsense repeatedly.

Gimme examples of other countries which emulate Pak behavior


Claim that pak has been spouting forever without a shred of evidence

US, Britain, And every other nation that is in conflict with each other.

Do Hindutva live in a bubble?

 

[KB]

1) Well didn't Naqba hapen becuse Arabs attack 1 day after Israel came into existence?

I think some context might help.

It was, of course, the British that had made the Zionist dream of a Jewish homeland possible. So it is ironic that the British were in large part forced out of Palestine by terror tactics used by the Irgun and Lehi. Though the leaders of the Jewish Agency criticised these underground groups, it could be argued that a precedent had been set of achieving political goals through terrorism.

Next, let us consider the UN Partition Resolution, a major milestone towards the realisation of Israel. American Zionists put considerable pressure on Harry Truman. Truman had said that he never “had as much pressure and propaganda aimed at the White House as I had in this instance.” Late in the day, the US performed a u-turn, abandoning its stance of non-intervention and applying pressure on other UN members to support the partition plan. Palestinian Arabs constituted two thirds or 1.2 million of the population of the lands. Arabs owned 94 per cent of the total land area. Yet, the UN partition plan proposed that the Jewish state would get 55 per cent of Mandatory Palestine comprising 500,000 Jews and 400,000 Arabs; the remaining land would be a Palestinian state, made up of 725,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews. Jerusalem would be placed under international control.

Given what has transpired it is easy to assert that the Arabs should have taken the deal. But that is abusing the benefit of hindsight. Is it really that surprising that the Arabs rejected the partition plan? How would Indians have reacted if Pakistan had been given over 50% of British India, despite the Muslims being an overall minority in the country?

And so civil war broke out. The Jewish community was in a better position than Palestinian Arabs. The Zionist military organisation - the Haganah - had benefited from training and combat experience in the World War that had just ended. They also had a stockpile of weapons.

The only chance for the Palestinian Arabs was if the Arab states could co-ordinate their actions. Alas! The nascent independent states of Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon - themselves short of arms and ammunition - could not put aside their differences and distrust of each other. The Arab mission was on shaky ground from the outset.

750,000 Palestinians were displaced. There would be no return. David Ben-Gurion informed his cabinet in 1948, “We must prevent at all costs their return.”

And so it was, that “people left their country dazed and directionless,” as one Arab eyewitness reported, “without homes or money, falling ill and dying while wandering from place to place, living in niches and caves, their clothing falling apart, leaving them naked, their food running out, leaving them hungry. The mountains grew colder and they had no one to defend them.”

 

[rpant_gabba]

You are seeking answers that fall into your preconceived beliefs.

Neither October 7th nor Israel's response should be viewed as if whatever happened occurred in a vacuum. This conflict cannot be examined without context.

You are presenting an argument in a way that suggests only Israel has the right to respond indiscriminately, while Palestine, which has been subjugated by occupation and apartheid, has no right to resist.

Your question highlights a crucial point regarding the concept of self-defense and aggression in conflicts. If Israel initiated aggression on October 6th, then its subsequent response may not be considered a legitimate act of self-defense.

Nope. I'm trying to deal with the situation as it exists. Neither Hamas nor Israel have a good endgame.

If you are asking for historical context, Post WWII was a mess.

As an athiest, the chosen people, promised land bs doesn't fly with me. Neither did the idea of a first generation converts (Allama Iqbal and Jinnah) declaring hindus and muslims cannot be one country.

Indian leaders accepted the reality and made the best of a challenging situation. I've to come to recognize Allama and jinnah did India and Hindus a huge favor with their actions. I consider them to be be heroes of Hindus and India in the long run, more than Nehru.

Partition of Palestine and creation of Israel doesn't have to look like it does today. Now, it is an intractable mess: Arabs, Yanks, Brits and Israel's all have an equal contribution to this.

 

[rpant_gabba]

US, Britain, And every other nation that is in conflict with each other.

Do Hindutva live in a bubble?

Really?

UK has been sending terrorists into neighboring countries? US invades and manipulates elections? sending and training terrorists specificaly to cause civlian casualties?

do pak muslims always make assertions without evidence and expect every to accept it?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

India did not call PLO as a terrorist organization either while the rest of the world did.

In fact India voted against partition of Palestine. India has enough stuff to worry about and has condemned the events of 10/7.

India's view: Brits, Yanks and Arabs created this problem. Let them solve it.

Not sure where you are going with this. Pakistani govt pays lip service to palestinian cause while it has provided soldiers to murder them in Jordan.

Ranting and raving? thats your view. All I'm doing to asking very simple question and pointing out inconsistencies. What makes you think India is my govt?

When has Israel called on India to declare Hamas as terrorists?

Israel and India have had god relationship even when India was supporting PLO and Arafat.


Let me put the same question that I have put to others.

IYO, what should have been Israels response to 10/7?

The Israelis have called for it numerous times since 10/7. Here is a statement from Nora Galom in October 2023 I think it is time for India to officially designate Hamas as a terror organisation. Many countries – EU, U.S., Canada, Australia – have already done that.

Let's talk about the inconsistency in the approach of your government before preaching to others here.

Your nickname is rpant_gabba it's unlikely you are Pakistani or Bangladeshi so I am assuming you are Indian.

Please can you let us know what is stopping your government from describing Hamas as a terrorist group? Have you tried to convey the same messages you are conveying to us on this forum to your elected representative?

These are very reasonable questions and I hope you will find it within yourself to answer them.

 

[rpant_gabba]

I think some context might help.

It was, of course, the British that had made the Zionist dream of a Jewish homeland possible. So it is ironic that the British were in large part forced out of Palestine by terror tactics used by the Irgun and Lehi. Though the leaders of the Jewish Agency criticised these underground groups, it could be argued that a precedent had been set of achieving political goals through terrorism.

Next, let us consider the UN Partition Resolution, a major milestone towards the realisation of Israel. American Zionists put considerable pressure on Harry Truman. Truman had said that he never “had as much pressure and propaganda aimed at the White House as I had in this instance.” Late in the day, the US performed a u-turn, abandoning its stance of non-intervention and applying pressure on other UN members to support the partition plan. Palestinian Arabs constituted two thirds or 1.2 million of the population of the lands. Arabs owned 94 per cent of the total land area. Yet, the UN partition plan proposed that the Jewish state would get 55 per cent of Mandatory Palestine comprising 500,000 Jews and 400,000 Arabs; the remaining land would be a Palestinian state, made up of 725,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews. Jerusalem would be placed under international control.

Given what has transpired it is easy to assert that the Arabs should have taken the deal. But that is abusing the benefit of hindsight. Is it really that surprising that the Arabs rejected the partition plan? How would Indians have reacted if Pakistan had been given over 50% of British India, despite the Muslims being an overall minority in the country?

And so civil war broke out. The Jewish community was in a better position than Palestinian Arabs. The Zionist military organisation - the Haganah - had benefited from training and combat experience in the World War that had just ended. They also had a stockpile of weapons.

The only chance for the Palestinian Arabs was if the Arab states could co-ordinate their actions. Alas! The nascent independent states of Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon - themselves short of arms and ammunition - could not put aside their differences and distrust of each other. The Arab mission was on shaky ground from the outset.

750,000 Palestinians were displaced. There would be no return. David Ben-Gurion informed his cabinet in 1948, “We must prevent at all costs their return.”

And so it was, that “people left their country dazed and directionless,” as one Arab eyewitness reported, “without homes or money, falling ill and dying while wandering from place to place, living in niches and caves, their clothing falling apart, leaving them naked, their food running out, leaving them hungry. The mountains grew colder and they had no one to defend them.”

Allows to summarize:

Brits played both sides. The Balfour declaration was not exactly a secret. King of Jordan want along with it (until the last minute) as long his territory got bigger.

Arabs must have been aware that Brits got pushed out and israel was getting lots of military help, yet they thought they could defeat israel?

So british and arab (jordanian) malfeasence created the problem and arab arrogance made it 10X worse

 

[rpant_gabba]

The Israelis have called for it numerous times since 10/7. Here is a statement from Nora Galom in October 2023 I think it is time for India to officially designate Hamas as a terror organisation. Many countries – EU, U.S., Canada, Australia – have already done that, Let's talk about the inconsistency in the approach of your government before preaching to others here.

What part of India doesn't go around with declaration do you not get? they condemned hamas actions and provide aid to and diplomatic support palestinian cause. It has been india's historical stance and remains consistent

Your nickname is rpant_gabba it's unlikely you are Pakistani or Bangladeshi so I am assuming you are Indian.

nope

Please can you let us know what is stopping your government from describing Hamas as a terrorist group?

My country has. If you asking why India hasn't: why would it. It condemns hamas terrorist actions. In the past it has preferred non-partition of palestine. since it became inevitable it prefers a peaceful achievement of 2 state solution.

Have you tried to convey the same messages you are conveying to us on this forum to your elected representative?

These are very reasonable questions and I hope you will find it within yourself to answer them.

Yup. I have. At this point, I prefer a complete disengagement of from the Israel-Arab mess.

 

[Asad T]

thats your version. Arabs attacked and palestinians paid the price. Rest of the arabs went on their merry way.

Glad you think so

1) so israel should just sign apeace deal after 1200 of tis citizens were massacred?

2) is there time limit on how far we can go back regarding oppression? how about the moghuls and their oppression of hindus?

 

[rpant_gabba]

<snip>

sad that this is all you can come up with

 

[Asad T]

sad that this is all you can come up with

Yes, unfotunatley that is the sad realisty of Palestinean history. You should maybe read a book

 

[rpant_gabba]

Yes, unfotunatley that is the sad realisty of Palestinean history. You should maybe read a book

you conveniently want to start the moral clock at your preferred time and location. i don't have to agree

 

[Asad T]

you conveniently want to start the moral clock at your preferred time and location. i don't have to agree

Yes, I started the clock just prior to Israel being established. Quite a logical place to start from.

You are only starting from 10/7 at your preffered time and location which is quite convinent and disingenuous because it lacks any context. But its ok, I dont expect you to have a comprehensive understanding of history. Right wing nationalists seldom do.

 

[RexRex]

So how exactly do you fight hamas which is blended itself with gazan civlians and has command centers in hospitals

Let's say there's a wedding going on in a conference hall with a thousand plus people. And you have information that there are 2 Hamas terrorists amongst that crowd. Would you as the commander call for an airstrike and drop a 2000 pound bomb on that building ?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Let's say there's a wedding going on in a conference hall with a thousand plus people. And you have information that there are 2 Hamas terrorists amongst that crowd. Would you as the commander call for an airstrike and drop a 2000 pound bomb on that building ?

If those 2 Hamas fighters are going to fire rockets into your home anytime, what choice do you have. What would you do if you know your children and loved ones will be in danger if you don’t take out those 2 terrorists?

There is no easy answer for this. If you take action, you can kill innocents. If you don’t take action, those terrorists will kill your children.

Ideally I want IDF and Hamas go to a vacant land and fight it out and winner takes it all. This kind of guerrilla warfare is going to hurt common civilians. For every terrorist killed, 10 innocents will be hurt or killed.

 

[rpant_gabba]

Let's say there's a wedding going on in a conference hall with a thousand plus people. And you have information that there are 2 Hamas terrorists amongst that crowd. Would you as the commander call for an airstrike and drop a 2000 pound bomb on that building ?

So you are putting up a strawman.

Tell me how to combat a terrorist organization in an urban setting?

ground invasion? more casualties on your side and potentiallly more hostages.

 

[RexRex]

If those 2 Hamas fighters are going to fire rockets into your home anytime, what choice do you have. What would you do if you know your children and loved ones will be in danger if you don’t take out those 2 terrorists?

That's cruel and kinda dehumanising.. you'd kill a thousand innocent people because of some future event that you're not even sure might happen ?

 

[RexRex]

There is no easy answer for this. If you take action, you can kill innocents. If you don’t take action, those terrorists will kill your children.

Alright since you have no problem with mass casualties, here's another scenario -

You are President Obama. He decides against a surgical strike with Navy SEALs and instead decides to bomb the entire neighbourhood/town in Abbotabad where Osama Bin Laden was hiding so as to kill him. Would you do it ?

 

[Technics 1210]

The stuff RSS spew is disgusting and disturbing - should be banned outright and the day is not far when Hindutva is classified as a terrorist ideology (Modi ban was not enough), and I am hoping the first few flights to Rwanda are filled to the brim with UK wannabe RSS silos.

 

[rpant_gabba]

That's cruel and kinda dehumanising.. you'd kill a thousand innocent people because of some future event that you're not even sure might happen ?

so, whats is an acceptable number?

what is your limit if you can prevent 10/7 or 9/11 or 11/26?

 

[rpant_gabba]

Alright since you have no problem with mass casualties, here's another scenario -

You are President Obama. He decides against a surgical strike with Navy SEALs and instead decides to bomb the entire neighbourhood/town in Abbotabad where Osama Bin Laden was hiding so as to kill him. Would you do it ?

what if obama doesn't have teh ability and OBL was working on getting a WMD to hit NYC again? What would you do?

 

[Asad T]

what if obama doesn't have teh ability and OBL was working on getting a WMD to hit NYC again? What would you do?

What if your goal is to displace more arabs off their land so you can annex it? just bomb them to bits under the pretext of self-defense. Great strategy

 

[RexRex]

so, whats is an acceptable number?

what is your limit if you can prevent 10/7 or 9/11 or 11/26?

There should be an international moratorium on airstrikes, particularly in population dense areas.

 

[RexRex]

what if obama doesn't have teh ability and OBL was working on getting a WMD to hit NYC again? What would you do?

.. doesn't have the ability for what ?

 

[HalBass9]

The people who find justification for burning children alive in tents, those who excuse it, and even those who are willing to look away in silence - they will support and justify anything out of pure hatred. There is no red line for them. If the death toll were a million, they would act the same, or Worse.

Many have exposed themselves, though many were not oblivious to that fact. The Gaza genocide has confirmed it forever.

There is no debate or discussion left.

 

[rpant_gabba]

.. doesn't have the ability for what ?

to carry out a a precise op?

How come you are running from a straight answer to a simple question?

What would have been your response to the 10/7 attacks? you bring issues with israels current response. Fair. what would you have done differently?

I'll admit that nothing that I can come with will be win win for both parties, becos I don't think there is one.

Can u do better?

 

[rpant_gabba]

There should be an international moratorium on airstrikes, particularly in population dense areas.

sure.... That way terrorists scumbags will know exactly where to hide.

Have you noticed how little sympathy Ukranians get in this forum. Its all selective outrage.

 

[RexRex]

to carry out a a precise op?

How come you are running from a straight answer to a simple question?

What would have been your response to the 10/7 attacks? you bring issues with israels current response. Fair. what would you have done differently?

I'll admit that nothing that I can come with will be win win for both parties, becos I don't think there is one.

Can u do better?

What would I do ? Have you seen the film Zero Dark Thirty ? I would send out the Mossad commandos and conduct surgical strikes, clearing one building after another ...

 

[rpant_gabba]

What would I do ? Have you seen the film Zero Dark Thirty ? I would send out the Mossad commandos and conduct surgical strikes, clearing one building after another ...


View attachment 144072

is this supposed to be a comedy?

Israel and hamas have had skirmishes like that one you describe for a long time with no tangible long term success for either side. most often its ends in more Israeli hostages.

If that is all you have, you and I wasting each others time. I was under the impression you had an ace up your sleeve.

Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rpant_gabba]

The people who find justification for burning children alive in tents, those who excuse it, and even those who are willing to look away in silence - they will support and justify anything out of pure hatred. There is no red line for them. If the death toll were a million, they would act the same, or Worse.

Many have exposed themselves, though many were not oblivious to that fact. The Gaza genocide has confirmed it forever.

There is no debate or discussion left.

Lets say I grant you all that. Answer two questions for me.

Was life in Gaza better or worse before and after 10/7?

What IYO did Hamas think Israel was going to do?

 

[rpant_gabba]

Yes, I started the clock just prior to Israel being established. Quite a logical place to start from.

You are only starting from 10/7 at your preffered time and location which is quite convinent and disingenuous because it lacks any context. But its ok, I dont expect you to have a comprehensive understanding of history. Right wing nationalists seldom do.

Nope I'm starting back farther and taking a wider view. I hold the arabs equally culpable for the current situation and u canl;t stand it becos of your religious bias

 

[uppercut]

Yes, I started the clock just prior to Israel being established. Quite a logical place to start from.

Explain why that is logical. Facts only please.

 

[Champ_Pal]

That's cruel and kinda dehumanising.. you'd kill a thousand innocent people because of some future event that you're not even sure might happen ?

So you are going to wait till the terrorists hit you with rockets again and hide among civilians again?

Even then according to you Israel cannot bomb them as they are hiding among civilians?

Cool story bro. The world does not work like that.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Alright since you have no problem with mass casualties, here's another scenario -

You are President Obama. He decides against a surgical strike with Navy SEALs and instead decides to bomb the entire neighbourhood/town in Abbotabad where Osama Bin Laden was hiding so as to kill him. Would you do it ?

If osama and his cronies are constantly hitting you with rockets and planning on further attacks, do you think US will sit and watch their next moves?

In Osama’s case he was done with his evil deeds and US paid Pakistan to kill Osama.

 

[Champ_Pal]

The stuff RSS spew is disgusting and disturbing - should be banned outright and the day is not far when Hindutva is classified as a terrorist ideology (Modi ban was not enough), and I am hoping the first few flights to Rwanda are filled to the brim with UK wannabe RSS silos.

Bro, you can talk when Hindutva followers start doing dastardly acts in the west.

As of now, they are no where near the brutes that some other organizations are.

 

[Champ_Pal]

When Saudis were bombing Yemen, there were crickets. Over 300,000 people were killed in Yemen during those bombings. We didn’t see any protests worldwide. It’s all forgotten now.

What Hamas was doing to Israel is what Houthis were doing to Saudis. Houthis fire rockets and hide among civilians. What will Saudis do? Sit and watch just because there will be civilian casualties?

Pakistan was letting US bomb its own civilians by US not long ago.

 

[BouncerGuy]

No sane person in this world can support what Israel did in Rafah. How can you bomb people who thought that these shelter homes would be safe for them and their 1-2-year-old kids?

 

[Rajdeep]

The stuff RSS spew is disgusting and disturbing - should be banned outright and the day is not far when Hindutva is classified as a terrorist ideology (Modi ban was not enough), and I am hoping the first few flights to Rwanda are filled to the brim with UK wannabe RSS silos.

The title of the thread is Why Hindutva supporters back Israel. It is not a question but an accusation. So it is only fair that hindutva brigade must be given a chance to explain their position and that is exactly what is happening in this thread. Just bcoz you lot are losing this debate badly and not able to hear what you wanted to hear, you want to ban them outright? LOL. How many Indians here take part in normal Israel-Palestine thread? However, if a thread is created specifically accusing one group who has nothing to do with this conflict, they have all the right to respond. Sun na padega bhai.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Can you explain why Modi govt refuses to brand Hamas as terrorists?

@cricketjoshila claims they will do so in a few months. What's your thoughts?

To brand any organisation a terrorist organisation requires strict compliance under UAPA act.

It took government years to ban SIMI and PFI.

Israel has just put in a request in October 2023 to ban Hamas. So it will take some time plus evidence sharing by Israel to get this done.

 

[cricketjoshila]

But he does though.

@Cpt. Rishwat takes pride on British Raj and also find the Mughal rule in India as glorious.

Why do you think most of the world doesn't take much cognizance of Pakistani narrative on India.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Off course. But Netanyahu Cleary said HE WONT.

If all Muslim countries accept the two state solution why did they attack Israel multiple times? Why don't some still don't recognise Israel?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Bro, did I give them the title of the British Raj? How would I be in a position to do so?

I don't recall ever calling Mughal rule as glorious, but it is true that India as a country was one of the great continents of the world at that time.

India as a region was one of the greatest long before Mughals came.

What title? That's your self declared title, when it just means British rule.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

To brand any organisation a terrorist organisation requires strict compliance under UAPA act.

It took government years to ban SIMI and PFI.

Israel has just put in a request in October 2023 to ban Hamas. So it will take some time plus evidence sharing by Israel to get this done.

UAPA act relates mainly to domestic groups or stops groups seeking funding or recruiting in India. It makes sense for it to take so long to ban SIMI etc as these bans could be appealed in Indian courts. I don't think India will need to follow through with the act in this case - I don't see Ismail Haniyeh appealing it in New Delhi.

After October 7 Indian intelligence sources told the media there were no plans to ban Hamas.

There is a massive inconsistency in the behaviour of many Indian posters when they demand condemnation from Pakistani posters for something that their own government is keeping its lips sealed about.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

When Mosad is intervening, then you know there's serious xxit. But I'm sure the Hindutwa brigade will be out in droves again to defend.


Mossad director Yossi Cohen personally involved in secret plot to pressure Fatou Bensouda to drop Palestine investigation, sources say

The former head of the Mossad, Israel’s foreign intelligence agency, allegedly threatened a chief prosecutor of the international criminal court in a series of secret meetings in which he tried to pressure her into abandoning a war crimes investigation, the Guardian can reveal.

Yossi Cohen’s covert contacts with the ICC’s then prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda, took place in the years leading up to her decision to open a formal investigation into alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity in occupied Palestinian territories.

That investigation, launched in 2021, culminated last week when Bensouda’s successor, Karim Khan, announced that he was seeking an arrest warrant for the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, over the country’s conduct in its war in Gaza.

The prosecutor’s decision to apply to the ICC’s pre-trial chamber for arrest warrants for Netanyahu and his defence minister, Yoav Gallant, alongside three Hamas leaders, is an outcome Israel’s military and political establishment has long feared.

Cohen’s personal involvement in the operation against the ICC took place when he was the director of the Mossad. His activities were authorised at a high level and justified on the basis the court posed a threat of prosecutions against military personnel, according to a senior Israeli official.

Another Israeli source briefed on the operation against Bensouda said the Mossad’s objective was to compromise the prosecutor or enlist her as someone who would cooperate with Israel’s demands.

A third source familiar with the operation said Cohen was acting as Netanyahu’s “unofficial messenger”.

Cohen, who was one of Netanyahu’s closest allies at the time and is emerging as a political force in his own right in Israel, personally led the Mossad’s involvement in an almost decade-long campaign by the country to undermine the court.

Four sources confirmed that Bensouda had briefed a small group of senior ICC officials about Cohen’s attempts to sway her, amid concerns about the increasingly persistent and threatening nature of his behaviour.

Three of those sources were familiar with Bensouda’s formal disclosures to the ICC about the matter. They said she revealed Cohen had put pressure on her on several occasions not to proceed with a criminal investigation in the ICC’s Palestine case.

According to accounts shared with ICC officials, he is alleged to have told her: “You should help us and let us take care of you. You don’t want to be getting into things that could compromise your security or that of your family.”

One individual briefed on Cohen’s activities said he had used “despicable tactics” against Bensouda as part of an ultimately unsuccessful effort to intimidate and influence her. They likened his behaviour to “stalking”.

The Mossad also took a keen interest in Bensouda’s family members and obtained transcripts of secret recordings of her husband, according to two sources with direct knowledge of the situation. Israeli officials then attempted to use the material to discredit the prosecutor.

The revelations about Cohen’s operation form part of a forthcoming investigation by the Guardian, the Israeli-Palestinian publication +972 Magazine and the Hebrew-language outlet Local Call, revealing how multiple Israel intelligence agencies ran a covert “war” against the ICC for almost a decade.

Contacted by the Guardian, a spokesperson for Israel’s prime minister’s office said: “The questions forwarded to us are replete with many false and unfounded allegations meant to hurt the state of Israel.” Cohen did not respond to a request for comment. Bensouda declined to comment.

In the Mossad’s efforts to influence Bensouda, Israel received support from an unlikely ally: Joseph Kabila, the former president of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, who played a supporting role in the plot.

Revelations about the Mossad’s efforts to influence Bensouda come as the current chief prosecutor, Khan, warned in recent days that he would not hesitate to prosecute “attempts to impede, intimidate or improperly influence” ICC officials.

According to legal experts and former ICC officials, efforts by the Mossad to threaten or put pressure on Bensouda could amount to offences against the administration of justice under article 70 of the Rome statute, the treaty that established the court.

A spokesperson for the ICC would not to say whether Khan had reviewed his predecessor’s disclosures about her contacts with Cohen, but said Khan had never met or spoken to the head of the Mossad.

While the spokesperson declined to comment on specific allegations, they said Khan’s office had been subjected to “several forms of threats and communications that could be viewed as attempts to unduly influence its activities”.

Bensouda sparks ire of Israel

Khan’s decision to seek arrest warrants against Netanyahu and Gallant last week marked the first time the court had taken action against leaders of a country closely allied with the US and Europe. Their alleged crimes – which include directing attacks on civilians and using starvation as a method of warfare – relate to the eight-month war in Gaza.

The ICC case, however, dates back to 2015, when Bensouda decided to open a preliminary examination into the situation in Palestine. Short of a full investigation, her inquiry was tasked with making an initial assessment of allegations of crimes by individuals in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Bensouda’s decision sparked the ire of Israel, which feared its citizens could be prosecuted for their involvement in operations in Palestinian territories. Israel had long been open about its opposition to the ICC, refusing to recognise its authority. Israeli ministers intensified their attacks on the court and even vowed to try to dismantle it.

Soon after commencing the preliminary examination, Bensouda and her senior prosecutors began to receive warnings that Israeli intelligence was taking a close interest in their work.

According to two sources, there were even suspicions among senior ICC officials that Israel had cultivated sources within the court’s prosecution division, known as the office of the prosecutor. Another later recalled that although the Mossad “didn’t leave its signature”, it was an assumption the agency was behind some of the activity officials had been made aware of.

Only a small group of senior figures at the ICC, however, were informed that the director of the Mossad had personally approached the chief prosecutor.

A career spy, Cohen enjoys a reputation in Israel’s intelligence community as an effective recruiter of foreign agents. He was a loyal and powerful ally of the prime minister at the time, having been appointed as director of the Mossad by Netanyahu in 2016 after working for several years at his side as his national security adviser.

As the head of the national security council between 2013 and 2016, Cohen oversaw the body that, according to multiple sources, began to coordinate a multiagency effort against the ICC once Bensouda opened the preliminary inquiry in 2015.

Cohen’s first interaction with Bensouda appears to have taken place at the Munich security conference in 2017, when the Mossad director introduced himself to the prosecutor in a brief exchange. After this encounter, Cohen subsequently “ambushed” Bensouda in a bizarre episode in a Manhattan hotel suite, according to multiple sources familiar with the incident.

Bensouda was in New York in 2018 on an official visit, and was meeting Kabila, then the president of the DRC, at his hotel. The pair had met several times before in relation to the ICC’s ongoing investigation into alleged crimes committed in his country.

The meeting, however, appears to have been a setup. At a certain point, after Bensouda’s staff were asked to leave the room, Cohen entered, according to three sources familiar with the meeting. The surprise appearance, they said, caused alarm to Bensouda and a group of ICC officials travelling with her.

Why Kabila helped Cohen is unclear, but ties between the two men were revealed in 2022 by the Israeli publication TheMarker, which reported on a series of secretive trips the Mossad director made to the DRC throughout 2019.

According to the publication, Cohen’s trips, during which he sought Kabila’s advice “on an issue of interest to Israel”, and which were almost certainly approved by Netanyahu, were highly unusual and had astonished senior figures within the intelligence community.

Reporting on the DRC meetings in 2022, the Israeli broadcaster Kan 11 said Cohen’s trips related to an “extremely controversial plan” and cited official sources who described it as “one of Israel’s most sensitive secrets”.

Multiple sources have confirmed to the Guardian the trips were partly related to the ICC operation, and Kabila, who left office in January 2019, played an important supporting role in the Mossad’s plot against Bensouda. Kabila did not respond to a request for comment.

‘Threats and manipulation’

After the surprise meeting with Kabila and Bensouda in New York, Cohen repeatedly phoned the chief prosecutor and sought meetings with her, three sources recalled. According to two people familiar with the situation, at one stage Bensouda asked Cohen how he had obtained her phone number, to which he replied: “Did you forget what I do for a living?”

Initially, the sources explained, the intelligence chief “tried to build a relationship” with the prosecutor and played “good cop” in an attempt to charm her. The initial objective, they said, appeared to have been to enlist Bensouda into cooperating with Israel.

Over time, however, the tone of Cohen’s contact changed and he began to use a range of tactics, including “threats and manipulation”, an individual briefed on the meetings said. This prompted Bensouda to inform a small group of senior ICC officials about his behaviour.

In December 2019, the prosecutor announced that she had grounds to open a full criminal investigation into allegations of war crimes in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. However, she held off launching it, deciding first to request a ruling from the ICC’s pre-trial chamber to confirm the court did indeed have jurisdiction over Palestine.

Multiple sources said it was at this stage, as the judges considered the case, that Cohen escalated his attempts to persuade Bensouda not to pursue a full investigation in the event the judges gave her the green light.

Between late 2019 and early 2021, the sources said, there were at least three encounters between Cohen and Bensouda, all initiated by the spy chief. His behaviour is said to have become increasingly concerning to ICC officials.

A source familiar with Bensouda’s accounts of the final two meetings with Cohen said he had raised questions about her security, and that of her family, in a manner that led her to believe he was threatening her.

On one occasion, Cohen is said to have shown Bensouda copies of photographs of her husband, which were taken covertly when the couple were visiting London. On another, according to sources, Cohen suggested to the prosecutor that a decision to open a full investigation would be detrimental to her career.

Four sources familiar with the situation said it was around the same time that Bensouda and other ICC officials discovered that information was circulating among diplomatic channels relating to her husband, who worked as an international affairs consultant.

Between 2019 and 2020, the Mossad had been actively seeking compromising information on the prosecutor and took an interest in her family members.

The spy agency obtained a cache of material, including transcripts of an apparent sting operation against her husband.

It is unclear who conducted the operation, or precisely what he is alleged to have said in the recordings. One possibility is that he had been targeted by the intelligence agency or by private actors of another country that wanted leverage over the ICC. Another possibility is the information was fabricated.

Once in the possession of Israel, however, the material was used by its diplomats in an unsuccessful attempt to undermine the chief prosecutor. But according to multiple sources, Israel failed to convince its allies of the significance of the material.

Three sources briefed on the information shared by Israel at a diplomatic level described the efforts as part of an unsuccessful “smear campaign” against Bensouda. “They went after Fatou,” one source said, but it had “no impact” on the prosecutor’s work.

The diplomatic efforts were part of a coordinated effort by the governments of Netanyahu and Donald Trump in the US to place public and private pressure on the prosecutor and her staff.

Between 2019 and 2020, in an unprecedented decision, the Trump administration imposed visa restrictions and sanctions on the chief prosecutor. The move was in retaliation to Bensouda’s pursuit of a separate investigation into war crimes in Afghanistan, allegedly committed by the Taliban and both Afghan and US military personnel.

However, Mike Pompeo, then US secretary of state, linked the sanctions package to the Palestine case. “It’s clear the ICC is only putting Israel in [its] crosshairs for nakedly political purposes,” he said.

Months later, he accused Bensouda, without citing any evidence, of having “engaged in corrupt acts for her personal benefit”.

The US sanctions were rescinded after President Joe Biden entered the White House.

In February 2021, the ICC’s pre-trial chamber issued a ruling confirming the ICC had jurisdiction in occupied Palestinian territories. The following month, Bensouda announced the opening of the criminal investigation.

“In the end, our central concern must be for the victims of crimes, both Palestinian and Israeli, arising from the long cycle of violence and insecurity that has caused deep suffering and despair on all sides,” she said at the time.

Bensouda completed her nine-year term at the ICC three months later, leaving it to her successor, Khan, to take up the investigation. It was only after the Hamas attacks on Israel on 7 October and the ensuing war on Gaza that the ICC’s investigation gained renewed urgency, culminating in last week’s request for arrest warrants.

It was the conclusion Israel’s political, military and intelligence establishment had feared. “The fact they chose the head of Mossad to be the prime minister’s unofficial messenger to [Bensouda] was to intimidate, by definition,” said a source briefed on Cohen’s operation. “It failed.”

Revealed: Israeli spy chief ‘threatened’ ICC prosecutor over war crimes inquiry

Mossad director Yossi Cohen personally involved in secret plot to pressure Fatou Bensouda to drop Palestine investigation, sources say

www.theguardian.com

 

[Mesozoic]

There is a massive inconsistency in the behaviour of many Indian posters when they demand condemnation from Pakistani posters for something that their own government is keeping its lips sealed about

What on earth are you on about?

Modi and Jai shankar have repeatedly called Oct 7th "a terrorist attack on Israel". I'm pretty sure a few others had as well. You guys need to do some research... atleast a little.

 

[smkk]

If those 2 Hamas fighters are going to fire rockets into your home anytime, what choice do you have. What would you do if you know your children and loved ones will be in danger if you don’t take out those 2 terrorists?

There is no easy answer for this. If you take action, you can kill innocents. If you don’t take action, those terrorists will kill your children.

Ideally I want IDF and Hamas go to a vacant land and fight it out and winner takes it all. This kind of guerrilla warfare is going to hurt common civilians. For every terrorist killed, 10 innocents will be hurt or killed.

This situation is already existing at the moment.

Whole of Gaza is living in the Rafah, and Hamas is occupying the northern and middle portion of Gaza which is vacant at the moment. They are attacking from there and throwing rockets and missiles from that portion into the Israel. But IDF ( like a coward) is attacking on Rafah where only innocents are living only. Refusing to go back and confront the Hamas in Northern side of Gaza.

Yesterday almost 100 of rockets/missiles came from northern side of Gaza as per reports.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

India as a region was one of the greatest long before Mughals came.

What title? That's your self declared title, when it just means British rule.

I invented the term British Raj? Really, is this a serious response? Please don't blame me for your own ancestors subservience to the Brits. I wouldn't have even broached this topic in this thread but was tagged directly about it by @Rajdeep

Was India even known as a collective region before the Mughal period?

 

[Asad T]

Explain why that is logical. Facts only please.

because if someone steals your house and you retaliate, that is an obvious place to start from. what do you think is logical place to start from?

 

[Rajdeep]

I invented the term British Raj? Really, is this a serious response? Please don't blame me for your own ancestors subservience to the Brits. I wouldn't have even broached this topic in this thread but was tagged directly about it by @Rajdeep

Was India even known as a collective region before the Mughal period?

The highlighted part is absolutely hilarious.

Who were your ancestors? Were they not subservient to British as well?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Guys no more off topic discussion plz !

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The highlighted part is absolutely hilarious.

Who were your ancestors? Were they not subservient to British as well?

How many Muslims do you know who go by the name Raj?

 

[Hitman]

The highlighted part is absolutely hilarious.

Who were your ancestors? Were they not subservient to British as well?

It’s called being a wannabe, a donkey with black and white stripes drawn on it’s body pretending to be a zebra.​

 

[DeadlyVenom]

What on earth are you on about?

Modi and Jai shankar have repeatedly called Oct 7th "a terrorist attack on Israel". I'm pretty sure a few others had as well. You guys need to do some research... atleast a little.

I am well versed on the way that diplomats speak.

There is a difference between calling October 7 a terrorist attack and naming Hamas as terrorists. It's why the Israelis have asked the Indians numerous times to explicitly specify Hamas as a terrorist group.

And the Indians lips are zipped tight.

Please apply pressure on your elected representatives on the Hamas issue rather than try to point score here.

 

[Rajdeep]

How many Muslims do you know who go by the name Raj?

That is fine but I am asking who your ancestors were sub servient to?

 

[RexRex]

If osama and his cronies are constantly hitting you with rockets and planning on further attacks, do you think US will sit and watch their next moves?

In Osama’s case he was done with his evil deeds and US paid Pakistan to kill Osama.

So you'd bomb the entire town of Abbotabad which has 200,000 pakistanis living in it, just to kill one person Osama

 

[Rajdeep]

It’s called being a wannabe, a donkey with black and white stripes drawn on it’s body pretending to be a zebra.​

This wanabe giri only looks good in internet forums but doesn't work in real world. Here in Britain no one considers them as British irrespective of whatever their passport says or how many generations have been staying there. This applies to Indians and all other brown community as well mind you. Just google the word Bradford and you will get to know what they think about them who otherwise in internet forums claim to be not subservient to British Raj.

 

[Hitman]

This wanabe giri only looks good in internet forums but doesn't work in real world. Here in Britain no one considers them as British irrespective of whatever their passport says or how many generations have been staying there. This applies to Indians and all other brown community as well mind you. Just google the word Bradford and you will get to know what they think about them who otherwise in internet forums claim to be not subservient to British Raj.

I do know all about Bradford, the home of British Pakistanis, and most of all it's reputation.

 

[RexRex]

It's why the Israelis have asked the Indians numerous times to explicitly specify Hamas as a terrorist group.

And the Indians lips are zipped tight.

Why do you think India refuses to classify Hamas as a terrorist group ?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Why do you think India refuses to classify Hamas as a terrorist group ?

I'm not sure but many Indians here seem to want Pakistani forum users to condemn Hamas.

Surely they should be rallying against their own government instead. That would be more productive.

Because at the moment the Indian government and Pakistani posters seem aligned.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I invented the term British Raj? Really, is this a serious response? Please don't blame me for your own ancestors subservience to the Brits. I wouldn't have even broached this topic in this thread but was tagged directly about it by @Rajdeep

Was India even known as a collective region before the Mughal period?

British Raj means British rule. Where is the title there? You think it's some kind of title.

Were your ancestors not ruled by Brits?

My ancestors kept fighting the muslim invaders and then the Brits, that's why i have a sovereign nation to live in and follow the culture and religion that my ancestors have followed for 1000s of years.

I invented the term British Raj? Really, is this a serious response? Please don't blame me for your own ancestors subservience to the Brits. I wouldn't have even broached this topic in this thread but was tagged directly about it by @Rajdeep

Was India even known as a collective region before the Mughal period?

 

[RexRex]

Surely they should be rallying against their own government instead. That would be more productive.

Because at the moment the Indian government and Pakistani posters seem aligned.

That's a fair point.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Why do you think India refuses to classify Hamas as a terrorist group ?

Because UAPA allows classification as a terrorist organisation under certain conditions.

Hamas has no activity in India. And Israel only requested India to ban Hamas recently. It will take months for this to happen.

Remember how much time the government took to ban SIMI or PFI.

 

[RexRex]

And Israel only requested India to ban Hamas recently.

I seriously doubt this is true.

 

[HalBass9]

This wanabe giri only looks good in internet forums but doesn't work in real world. Here in Britain no one considers them as British irrespective of whatever their passport says or how many generations have been staying there. This applies to Indians and all other brown community as well mind you. Just google the word Bradford and you will get to know what they think about them who otherwise in internet forums claim to be not subservient to British Raj.

When Hindutva proponents find themselves unable to defend the genocide, hypocrites convene and resort to assumptions.

 

[Rajdeep]

When Hindutva proponents find themselves unable to defend the genocide, hypocrites convene and resort to assumptions.

LOL...says a crazy Islamist who can't string a sentence together

Pls tell me Einstein when have I defended genocide? Read post # 850 what I think about this battle.

I was responding to Cpt Rishwat who thinks his ancestors were British and only hindus were sub servient to British Raj.

BTW, what does hypocrites convene even means?

 

[HalBass9]

LOL...says a crazy Islamist who can't string a sentence together

Pls tell me Einstein when have I defended genocide? Read post # 850 what I think about this battle.

I was responding to Cpt Rishwat who thinks his ancestors were British and only hindus were sub servient to British Raj.

BTW, what does hypocrites convene even means?

Aren't you British Bharti, English is the official language in Britain.

Islamist, lol. I guess Jews, American and British asking to end genocide are all 'Islamist" according to Hindutva.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

That is fine but I am asking who your ancestors were sub servient to?

No one. We were part of the Muslim community which had a pretty high standing in Mughal era which was then followed by the British. The Muslims are the ones who fought the British, to the extent the beleagured Brits had to fund a pacifist fake Muslim leader called Sir Sayyid Ahmed Khan to urge the faithful to give up jihad against the Brits. My ancestors didn't anoint a British "Raj" and salute the new Raj.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Aren't you British Bharti, English is the official language in Britain.

Islamist, lol. I guess Jews, American and British asking to end genocide are all 'Islamist" according to Hindutva.

Just shows how fake hindutva movement is. They adopt western terms like Islamist which never even existed in the Hindi language. They are neither here nor there. They don't know their own culture, they have to adopt their language and the fights of their English Raj.

 

[Rajdeep]

Aren't you British Bharti, English is the official language in Britain.

Islamist, lol. I guess Jews, American and British asking to end genocide are all 'Islamist" according to Hindutva.

I didn't call you crazy Islamist bcoz you are asking to end the genocide. I am calling you one bcoz you jumped in between my conversation with brother Rishwat, didn't even bother to read what we were discussing and called me 'Hindutva supporting genocide'. Then went onto use some fancy English words which I have no clue what do they even mean. If this is not being crazy, what is?

I don't support genocide or killing of even one innocent person. However I don't need to justify it to you what I feel as mostly I laugh at your posts and don't take you seriously.

I have posted in post#850 what I feel about this genocide which is for all to read

 

[Champ_Pal]

So you'd bomb the entire town of Abbotabad which has 200,000 pakistanis living in it, just to kill one person Osama

If Osama and thousands of his followers are hiding among ordinary citizens, bombing innocents will happen due to intelligence failure.

So you've been asking me lots of questions. Let me ask you. What would you do to deal with the situation? Don't tell me you will just play defense and forgive them.

 

[Champ_Pal]

No one. We were part of the Muslim community which had a pretty high standing in Mughal era which was then followed by the British. The Muslims are the ones who fought the British, to the extent the beleagured Brits had to fund a pacifist fake Muslim leader called Sir Sayyid Ahmed Khan to urge the faithful to give up jihad against the Brits. My ancestors didn't anoint a British "Raj" and salute the new Raj.

Your ancestors got canned by invading Turks from central Asia. Many were muderdered. Some converted and joined forces with the new rules in town. You are not part of nobility. You were allowed to live your regular life since you converted.

 

[Stewie]

Some of the earlier pages of this thread are a great insight into INdian psyche as they tried to defend Israel but hook or by crook even in light of the genocide of innocent women and children in Gaza. SO MANY OF THE ISRAELI CLAIMS ARE NOW DEBUNKED and foreign governments are actually realizing the plight of the palestinians, their right to a state and exist. The Indians here just want to tow the line of their maniacal PM, they are not using their own critical thinking skills.

Its not worth debating or engaging such people anywhere.

 

[RexRex]

So you've been asking me lots of questions. Let me ask you. What would you do to deal with the situation? Don't tell me you will just play defense and forgive them.

I wouldn't drop a 2000 pound bomb with a half kilometre long blast radius.

Even pro-israel commentators wouldn't tolerate this in their own backyard.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1795005377894867233