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Why is it easier to get along well with liberal Indians rather than right wingers?

Rajdeep said:
You are trying too hard now and I dont have time to spoon feed both you and @Cpt. Rishwat on every topic.

Critical of their government has nothing to do with being secular. The definition of secularism is tolerant towards others views, beliefs and religion. Secularism is everything Islamic republic of Pakistan stand against. Otherwise people like Taslima Nasreen, Salman Rushdie or even Malala Yusuf would not have faced intolerance. Forget everything....posters like Farhan The Man would not have been booted out of here. And for what? Just having a contradicting opinion?

Pakistanis living overseas pretend to be secular as they are in minority and no other choice. None of them are secular in nature. I chuckle (or sometimes burst out in laughter) when likes of Cpt Rishwat claims to be secular. Like yeah right and I am Queen Victoria.

Anyway, I asked you a simple question on this thread which you have still not answered -

Why is it that every country in South Asia which has muslim majority are not secular? Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, UAE, Saudi, Qatar etc etc.

Why only the countries where non muslims are in majority are secular and liberal - India, SL, Bhutan, Nepal, Japan, North Korea etc.?

Even there wherever muslims are more in numbers, like in Kashmir, we see conflicts and they dont want to live with kafirs?

I know you will never gather enough courage to answer these like you dodged all tough questions I asked you in Indian muslim thread.

You are good at opening click bait threads though to drive traffic and I give you that.

:klopp
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Hahah...first of all, it's not my fault that you know zilch about Islam. Islam is the religion of moderation....and search it for yourself because you won't believe my words.

Secondly, unlike you guys, Muslims can NEVER advocate for second best thing when they are aware of the best model. And they with conviction consider it to be Islam.

Now coming on why you don't tolerate Malala,...Who is keeping him from coming back to Pakistan? Uncle Tom?
On idiots like Rushdie who insult our PROPHET PBUH, we don't have any regard but instead need to be dealt with blasphemy law accordingly.

And YOU will lecture us on being secular 😂😂😂, Coming from someone who comes from a country where let alone ensuring protection to minorities, you lot can't even give them proper respect and use derogatory terms for them like Dara hwa Muslim, todke todke gang, Abdul etc. first look into the mirror before lecturing other on being secular. And yes agree on one bit, secularism is just meant to ensure no compulsion in matter of observance of one religion and Islam firmly believes in it but for that you need to study it man

In the end as an old friend, I again urge you to learn more about Islam brother. And me, @LordJames , @Suleiman bro all available to dispel any of your misunderstandings regarding Islam. Who knows our friend Raj may become Raheel in future. God willing 🙂
 
The Bald Eagle said:
Hahah...first of all, it's not my fault that you know zilch about Islam. Islam is the religion of moderation....and search it for yourself because you won't believe my words.

Secondly, unlike you guys, Muslims can NEVER advocate for second best thing when they are aware of the best model. And they with conviction consider it to be Islam.

Now coming on why you don't tolerate Malala,...Who is keeping him from coming back to Pakistan? Uncle Tom?
On idiots like Rushdie who insult our PROPHET PBUH, we don't have any regard but instead need to be dealt with blasphemy law accordingly.

And YOU will lecture us on being secular 😂😂😂, Coming from someone who comes from a country where let alone ensuring protection to minorities, you lot can't even give them proper respect and use derogatory terms for them like Dara hwa Muslim, todke todke gang, Abdul etc. first look into the mirror before lecturing other on being secular. And yes agree on one bit, secularism is just meant to ensure no compulsion in matter of observance of one religion and Islam firmly believes in it but for that you need to study it man.

In the end as an old friend, I again urge you to learn more about Islam brother. And me, @LordJames , @Suleiman bro all available to dispel any of your misunderstandings regarding Islam. Who knows our friend Raj may become Raheel in future. God willing 🙂
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I dont want to get educated on Islam as I am sure you know more. However, this is your thread where you asked why Pakistanis get well with liberal & secular Indians and not right wingers. So I just ask a simple question, which you are unable to answer - why most of the countries where muslims are in majority are not secular and every country where they are not in majority have liberal constitution?

You know I ask tough questions. If you going to open a thread, get ready to face my tough questions. Your so called brothers can help you too. One guy always runs away from me anyway.

:klopp
 
Rajdeep said:
You are trying too hard now and I dont have time to spoon feed both you and @Cpt. Rishwat on every topic.

Critical of their government has nothing to do with being secular. The definition of secularism is tolerant towards others views, beliefs and religion. Secularism is everything Islamic republic of Pakistan stand against. Otherwise people like Taslima Nasreen, Salman Rushdie or even Malala Yusuf would not have faced intolerance. Forget everything....posters like Farhan The Man would not have been booted out of here. And for what? Just having a contradicting opinion?

Pakistanis living overseas pretend to be secular as they are in minority and no other choice. None of them are secular in nature. I chuckle (or sometimes burst out in laughter) when likes of Cpt Rishwat claims to be secular. Like yeah right and I am Queen Victoria.

Anyway, I asked you a simple question on this thread which you have still not answered -

Why is it that every country in South Asia which has muslim majority are not secular? Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, UAE, Saudi, Qatar etc etc.

Why only the countries where non muslims are in majority are secular and liberal - India, SL, Bhutan, Nepal, Japan, North Korea etc.?

Even there wherever muslims are more in numbers, like in Kashmir, we see conflicts and they dont want to live with kafirs?

I know you will never gather enough courage to answer these like you dodged all tough questions I asked you in Indian muslim thread.

You are good at opening click bait threads though to drive traffic and I give you that.

:klopp
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Top post!
 
Rajdeep said:
You are trying too hard now and I dont have time to spoon feed both you and @Cpt. Rishwat on every topic.

Critical of their government has nothing to do with being secular. The definition of secularism is tolerant towards others views, beliefs and religion. Secularism is everything Islamic republic of Pakistan stand against. Otherwise people like Taslima Nasreen, Salman Rushdie or even Malala Yusuf would not have faced intolerance. Forget everything....posters like Farhan The Man would not have been booted out of here. And for what? Just having a contradicting opinion?

Pakistanis living overseas pretend to be secular as they are in minority and no other choice. None of them are secular in nature. I chuckle (or sometimes burst out in laughter) when likes of Cpt Rishwat claims to be secular. Like yeah right and I am Queen Victoria.

Anyway, I asked you a simple question on this thread which you have still not answered -

Why is it that every country in South Asia which has muslim majority are not secular? Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, UAE, Saudi, Qatar etc etc.

Why only the countries where non muslims are in majority are secular and liberal - India, SL, Bhutan, Nepal, Japan, North Korea etc.?

Even there wherever muslims are more in numbers, like in Kashmir, we see conflicts and they dont want to live with kafirs?

I know you will never gather enough courage to answer these like you dodged all tough questions I asked you in Indian muslim thread.

You are good at opening click bait threads though to drive traffic and I give you that.

:klopp
Click to expand...


That's not the definition of secularism. That is liberalism.

Secularism is separation of state and religion. I advise you look it up as English is not your first language and if you are going to lecture others on these things then you need a good grasp of it.

Incidentally getting likes from your fellow Indians who speak with a thick Indian accent isn't any sort of affirmation either.
 
Rajdeep said:
I dont want to get educated on Islam as I am sure you know more. However, this is your thread where you asked why Pakistanis get well with liberal & secular Indians and not right wingers. So I just ask a simple question, which you are unable to answer - why most of the countries where muslims are in majority are not secular and every country where they are not in majority have liberal constitution?

You know I ask tough questions. If you going to open a thread, get ready to face my tough questions. Your so called brothers can help you too. One guy always runs away from me anyway.

:klopp
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I have already answered you in the post you quoted above (81). Anyways, let me reiterate again. Islam doesn't decide which steak it's minority subjects can eat or not, nor does it force them to chant glorifying chants for the God of Majority. Nor does it ask them to prove their loyalty by pandering to the majority. It asks them to protect the minority, refrains from converting them against their will and gives their life same sanctity as of a regular subject

Now tell me does Hindutva ideology (Ideology of right wingers in India) espouse the same ideals. You can simply answer this query in Yes/No and there you got your answer. Thanks me later 🙂
 
Rajdeep said:
You are trying too hard now and I dont have time to spoon feed both you and @Cpt. Rishwat on every topic.

Critical of their government has nothing to do with being secular. The definition of secularism is tolerant towards others views, beliefs and religion. Secularism is everything Islamic republic of Pakistan stand against. Otherwise people like Taslima Nasreen, Salman Rushdie or even Malala Yusuf would not have faced intolerance. Forget everything....posters like Farhan The Man would not have been booted out of here. And for what? Just having a contradicting opinion?

Pakistanis living overseas pretend to be secular as they are in minority and no other choice. None of them are secular in nature. I chuckle (or sometimes burst out in laughter) when likes of Cpt Rishwat claims to be secular. Like yeah right and I am Queen Victoria.

Anyway, I asked you a simple question on this thread which you have still not answered -

Why is it that every country in South Asia which has muslim majority are not secular? Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, UAE, Saudi, Qatar etc etc.

Why only the countries where non muslims are in majority are secular and liberal - India, SL, Bhutan, Nepal, Japan, North Korea etc.?

Even there wherever muslims are more in numbers, like in Kashmir, we see conflicts and they dont want to live with kafirs?

I know you will never gather enough courage to answer these like you dodged all tough questions I asked you in Indian muslim thread.

You are good at opening click bait threads though to drive traffic and I give you that.

:klopp
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I agree with what you said but BD actually has secualrism enshrined in its founding principles although they recognize Islam as state religion. Slightly more nuanced.
 
For the same reason why it's easier for non Muslims to get along with non practising/liberal/ex muslims etc.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
That's not the definition of secularism. That is liberalism.

Secularism is separation of state and religion. I advise you look it up as English is not your first language and if you are going to lecture others on these things then you need a good grasp of it.

Incidentally getting likes from your fellow Indians who speak with a thick Indian accent isn't any sort of affirmation either.
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Yes Yes...English is your first language and Pakistanis speaks in fluent British English. Bhai kyon apna mazaak bana raha hai?:facepalm:

I dont make fun of anyone for not able to speak in English fluently or their accent. You dont know me personally, so you dont know how I speak anyway.

 
Rajdeep said:
Yes Yes...English is your first language and Pakistanis speaks in fluent British English. Bhai kyon apna mazaak bana raha hai?:facepalm:

I dont make fun of anyone for not able to speak in English fluently or their accent. You dont know me personally, so you dont know how I speak anyway.

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He’s right. Raj if you’re going to live in England at least learn what secularism is . It’s a separation of state and religion. These far right rally’s are misguiding you . Just like @rpant_gabba you’ll fail the citizenship test . Pls ask before exam day
 
Rajdeep said:
Yes Yes...English is your first language and Pakistanis speaks in fluent British English. Bhai kyon apna mazaak bana raha hai?:facepalm:

I dont make fun of anyone for not able to speak in English fluently or their accent. You dont know me personally, so you dont know how I speak anyway.

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What makes you think I'm making fun of you? What's wrong with having an Indian accent? :unsure:
 
@The Bald Eagle would you mind defining what are the attributes of a Indian liberal?

I get the sense that your primary definition is one who is willing to overlook Pak shenanigans like MKG.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
What makes you think I'm making fun of you? What's wrong with having an Indian accent? :unsure:
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When did I say you made fun of me? I was just reminding you the grasp over english language of Pakistanis since you bought the topic of language and accent.

:kp
 
This is what an English accent sounds like Rajdeep, I know you are a follower so this should strike a cord with you.

 
Here's another one of proud Brits supporting their champion.

@Rajdeep if you are here supporting your hero please point out as I see no Indians for some reason. :unsure:



 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
This is what an English accent sounds like Rajdeep, I know you are a follower so this should strike a cord with you.

Click to expand...

Cpt. Rishwat said:
Here's another one of proud Brits supporting their champion.

@Rajdeep if you are here supporting your hero please point out as I see no Indians for some reason. :unsure:



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Okay but what is the relevance of these posts on this thread? I know when you lose debate you tend to deviate but just curious.
 
Rajdeep said:
Okay but what is the relevance of these posts on this thread? I know when you lose debate you tend to deviate but just curious.
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You professed an admiration of Tommy Robinson and this thread is about right wing vs liberals. You said I was making fun of Indian accents and so I gave you an example of good salt of the earth English accents.
 
KingKhanWC said:
He’s right. Raj if you’re going to live in England at least learn what secularism is . It’s a separation of state and religion. These far right rally’s are misguiding you . Just like @rpant_gabba you’ll fail the citizenship test . Pls ask before exam day
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I know mate. So in that same definition Islamic republic of Pakistan is not secular isn't it? The constitution of Pakistan does not allow separation of state from religion. Hence my point still stands - Pakistanis are not secular in Pakistan. They only tend to act secular in western world simply because they are in minority. However the way things are, very soon places like Birmingham and Bradford will lose that secularism too. We just saw the ugly scenes and a glimpse of that before the Machabi Tel Aviv game and let me tell you except Muslims no one was happy with that, including Vila fans.
 
Incidentally, if you feel that these videos would be better suited to your thread about the Israeli team playing in Birmingham (which you posted) then I can put them there and we can take it up in that thread so as not to disrupt this one.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
You professed an admiration of Tommy Robinson and this thread is about right wing vs liberals. You said I was making fun of Indian accents and so I gave you an example of good salt of the earth English accents.
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Thread is about Pakistanis getting well with liberal Indians and not about Tommy Robinson or British accent. You started deviation from post #85
 
Rajdeep said:
Thread is about Pakistanis getting well with liberal Indians and not about Tommy Robinson or British accent. You started deviation from post #85
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Actually you started the deviation by giving a wrong description of secularism. From that point the thread seems to have embraced a few diverging branches.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Actually you started the deviation by giving a wrong description of secularism. From that point the thread seems to have embraced a few diverging branches.
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Nah...all my points were on track. Even if my definition of secularism was slightly off than what it is written in oxford dictionary my overall point still holds good for Pakistanis. You deviated the topic in post #85 by calling how Indians with thick accent liking my post has no relevance etc. Its okay...not sure why are you getting defensive. Everyone is used to your diversionary tactics here especially when you start losing debate.

:kp
 
Rajdeep said:
I know mate. So in that same definition Islamic republic of Pakistan is not secular isn't it? The constitution of Pakistan does not allow separation of state from religion. Hence my point still stands - Pakistanis are not secular in Pakistan. They only tend to act secular in western world simply because they are in minority. However the way things are, very soon places like Birmingham and Bradford will lose that secularism too. We just saw the ugly scenes and a glimpse of that before the Machabi Tel Aviv game and let me tell you except Muslims no one was happy with that, including Vila fans.
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You’re not applying at the Pakistani embassy, don’t go there . Apply online or visit CAS.

now you’re confusing the right to practice a religion with secularism. Freedom to protest is actually a part of secularist society. I think you imagined UK as some 17th century land. Maybe it’s not the place for if you believe what you write ?
 
Rajdeep said:
Hindus are secular by default.

The only countries in sub continent that are democratic and secular has Hindu/Buddhist majority - India, SL, Nepal, Bhutan etc etc

The countries that has muslim majority are Islamic republic - Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Saudi, UAE etc

Ever wondered why this is the case?

Right wing hindus from India have realized...secularism work both ways. Sirf humne secularism ka theka thori na uthaya hai. So they give back Pakistanis in the same rhetoric and language they understand and hence Pakistanis dont get along with them.

On the other hand, secular Indians, who blind themselves from the reality and treat Pakistanis as secular liberal people. So they get along well.

This is true however not only for Indian but everywhere including here in UK. Pakistanis/muslims only pretend to be secular because they are minority. Why do you think they were burning down Union Jack flags in Tower Hamlets? So much for mutual tolerance.

These dramebaazis no longer work unfortunately....India or else. I am a secular and liberal person but I want it to be mutual. I am not a fool like Mahatma Gandhi.
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Rajdeep said:
Thread is about Pakistanis getting well with liberal Indians and not about Tommy Robinson or British accent. You started deviation from post #85
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#85? The deflection actually started with your comment in #35, where you brought up Pakistan and secularism. Did Pakistan ever officially claim to be a secular country and then abandon it? If not, why bring them into the discussion? @The Bald Eagle simply expressed his personal opinion, but you assumed that since he is Pakistani, you should drag Pakistan into it and deflect from the main topic, just like you do it always.

If you or others believe India shouldn't remain secular anymore, does that somehow prove Pakistan right for not being secular? Are we supposed to follow their example? :inti
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
#85? The deflection actually started with your comment in #35, where you brought up Pakistan and secularism. Did Pakistan ever officially claim to be a secular country and then abandon it? If not, why bring them into the discussion? @The Bald Eagle simply expressed his personal opinion, but you assumed that since he is Pakistani, you should drag Pakistan into it and deflect from the main topic, just like you do it always.

If you or others believe India shouldn't remain secular anymore, does that somehow prove Pakistan right for not being secular? Are we supposed to follow their example? :inti
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Lol at I brought up Pakistan when literally the title of the thread is why Pakistanis get along well with liberal Indians and not right wingers. The post#35 just says the truth and exactly what OP is asking. I only speak facts, remember?

:kp
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
#85? The deflection actually started with your comment in #35, where you brought up Pakistan and secularism. Did Pakistan ever officially claim to be a secular country and then abandon it? If not, why bring them into the discussion? @The Bald Eagle simply expressed his personal opinion, but you assumed that since he is Pakistani, you should drag Pakistan into it and deflect from the main topic, just like you do it always.

If you or others believe India shouldn't remain secular anymore, does that somehow prove Pakistan right for not being secular? Are we supposed to follow their example? :inti
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You're right of course. We have to fight against India becoming as bad as Pakistan regarding tolerance of liberals and attitude towards secularism.
 
Rajdeep said:
Lol at I brought up Pakistan when literally the title of the thread is why Pakistanis get along well with liberal Indians and not right wingers. The post#35 just says the truth and exactly what OP is asking. I only speak facts, remember?

:kp
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Title of the thread: :inti

Why is it easier to get along well with liberal Indians rather than right wingers?​

 
Red-Indian said:
You're right of course. We have to fight against India becoming as bad as Pakistan regarding tolerance of liberals and attitude towards secularism.
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True we should never be like Pakistan but if a Pakistani is asking such a question we have to always show the mirrow and remind them the secularism of their own country. If snowflakes dnt want to drag Pakistan into such thread, that is simply not going to happen.

However knowing my good friend @The Bald Eagle ...he actually wanted content in this thread. And I gave plenty already...so he must be happy.

:kp
 
Rajdeep said:
True we should never be like Pakistan but if a Pakistani is asking such a question we have to always show the mirrow and remind them the secularism of their own country. If snowflakes dnt want to drag Pakistan into such thread, that is simply not going to happen.

However knowing my good friend @The Bald Eagle ...he actually wanted content in this thread. And I gave plenty already...so he must be happy.

:kp
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When did Pakistan ever claim to be a secular country?

How can you then claim to show them the mirror when they don't make that claim as India does?
 
Rajdeep said:
True we should never be like Pakistan but if a Pakistani is asking such a question we have to always show the mirrow and remind them the secularism of their own country. If snowflakes dnt want to drag Pakistan into such thread, that is simply not going to happen.

However knowing my good friend @The Bald Eagle ...he actually wanted content in this thread. And I gave plenty already...so he must be happy.

:kp
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Not really. Though this is a Pakistani site, Pakistan is irrelevant in this particular discussion. It's given up on concepts like liberalism, secularism and democracy a long time ago and chosen a darker path.

India needs to measure itself against the higher standards we have chosen to set ourselves and unfortunately we often fall very short.
 
Red-Indian said:
Not really. Though this is a Pakistani site, Pakistan is irrelevant in this particular discussion. It's given up on concepts like liberalism, secularism and democracy a long time ago and chosen a darker path.

India needs to measure itself against the higher standards we have chosen to set ourselves and unfortunately we often fall very short.
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Hmm… and that’s where the difference in mindset lies between liberal Indians and people like me.

Don’t get me wrong , I completely respect your line of thought: think bigger, don’t compare ourselves with a failed state like Pakistan, just because they’ve taken a darker path doesn’t mean we should do the same, and so on.

However, the way I see it, we must respond in the same language and with equal tenacity. The idea that, under the excuse of “Hum to dube hain sanam,” they can say anything while we are expected to always act morally superior is something I don’t agree with. I am not Gandhian or Nehruvian...I believe in the ideology of Modi.

And perhaps that explains why Pakistanis tend to get along better with liberal Indians like you, rather than with right-wingers like me.
 
Rajdeep said:
So I just ask a simple question, which you are unable to answer - why most of the countries where muslims are in majority are not secular and every country where they are not in majority have liberal constitution?
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I'm curious to know if the OP aka @The Bald Eagle agrees that Pakistan should stop being an islamic state and should make its constitution secular.
 
Rajdeep said:
So I just ask a simple question, which you are unable to answer - why most of the countries where muslims are in majority are not secular and every country where they are not in majority have liberal constitution?
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RexRex said:
I'm curious to know if the OP aka @The Bald Eagle agrees that Pakistan should stop being an islamic state and should make its constitution secular.
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Issue is not whether muslim majority nations are secular.

Its that they push of pseudosecularism when they are in minority until they are majority.

almost like a virus.
 
RexRex said:
What kind of self-answering question in the title is this ? They are easier to get along with because they are liberal :unsure:
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I thought the same thing when I read the title of the thread, but apparently we’re already at two pages.

In my personal experience, I’ve found right-wingers around the world to be dogmatic, close-minded, and often either subtly or openly racist, with very problematic views on women and minorities.
 
I have a lot of respect for the ideals that the Indian constitution was created on. In my opinion, the Indian Constitution is one of the most well-written constitutional documents that strongly emphasizes secularism while guaranteeing fundamental rights to all citizens. I also have immense respect for Dr. Ambedkar, because he played a central role in shaping that constitution into what it is. A big part of this is that I’ve always felt Pakistan’s constitutional foundations should have been built on similar principles.

But when I look at India today, it feels as though that original secular vision is being chipped away by the rise of Hindu nationalism. India is still incredibly diverse, and to be fair, a lot of this seems more pronounced in North India. Still, it feels like India has lost the moral high ground when it comes to lecturing Pakistan on secularism. And many Indians themselves, particularly those who support the BJP seem to view India as a 'Hindu nation.'

Ultimately, I think people is South Asia badly need to understand that majoritarianism, demonization of minorities and religious nationalism is not a normal and sane form of politics. This region is facing so many grave existential threats like climate change, poverty, social inequality that require immediate action. But the leaders and people of this region are too stupid, too self-serving, and too indifferent to understand that.
 
rpant_gabba said:
Issue is not whether muslim majority nations are secular.

Its that they push of pseudosecularism when they are in minority until they are majority.

almost like a virus.
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Does that mean if/when the UK and US become majority muslim population at some point in the future, they will push for an islamic state ?
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I have a lot of respect for the ideals that the Indian constitution was created on. In my opinion, the Indian Constitution is one of the most well-written constitutional documents that strongly emphasizes secularism while guaranteeing fundamental rights to all citizens. I also have immense respect for Dr. Ambedkar, because he played a central role in shaping that constitution into what it is. A big part of this is that I’ve always felt Pakistan’s constitutional foundations should have been built on similar principles.
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Secular liberal constitutions are good only if they are actually enforced by the courts i.e you need strong instituions. The court system in India has become near useless in many respects since Modi took power in 2014, so much so it's made me lose a lot of interest in what goes on in India these days.
 
RexRex said:
Does that mean if/when the UK and US become majority muslim population at some point in the future, they will push for an islamic state ?
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why do you have doubts about this? They already are pushing for limits to free speech.

read the article in telegraph by Janet Eastham
 
Pakistan is neither an Islamic state nor a functioning democracy. It operates as a dictatorship, carefully masked with the language of religion and the façade of democratic process. This illusion serves one purpose, to preserve the power and influence of a liberal elite that benefits from the status quo.

India, on the other hand, is a democracy, but it can no longer be called a secular state, at least not since the election of Modi’s government. While India’s constitution promises secularism, a nation is judged not by what is written on paper, but by the actions of those in power. In recent years, the line between religion and state has blurred, weakening the secular foundation that once set India apart.

The key difference lies in the possibility of change. India, despite its challenges, can still return to its secular roots, one vote at a time. Its institutions, though strained, still function. Pakistan, however, faces a far deeper crisis. With power so deeply entrenched in the hands of the military and elite, meaningful change won’t come through ballots or reforms alone. It may require a complete, and possibly violent, upheaval, a revolution to dismantle the system and rebuild from the ground up.
 
rpant_gabba said:
Issue is not whether muslim majority nations are secular.

Its that they push of pseudosecularism when they are in minority until they are majority.

almost like a virus.
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Can you give an example of Muslim nations being secular in minority and then becoming nom secular when in majority?
 
HalBass9 said:
Unless one is living under the rock, the free speech has been limited in the US.
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Examples?

make sure you understand what freedom speech means.

don't confuse Goverment actions vs action take by private organizations
 
DeadlyVenom said:
There is no such thing as free speech. It has it's limits. The debate is really what limits are acceptable. In the west holocaust denial seems the limit of acceptability, for other cultures it is religious elements.
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The question is whether the muslim majority population in western countries will push for an islamic state or islamic laws.

Islam, unlike other religions, is a political ideology so the question is valid.
 
HalBass9 said:
Government influencing private entities.
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You don't get put in jail for having an opinion. The US is the greatest country in the world as far as free speech is concerned.

Government will always subtly influence private entities, you can't stop that. Some like Trump are just more overt about it.
 
rpant_gabba said:
word salad. Shocker,

According to 1st amendment, you have right to free speech and freedom from government actions.

Thats it.
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It was 4 words. Probably going to need more words for it to be actual ‘salad’.

Thanks for copying and pasting the 1st amendment.
 
RexRex said:
cc @LordJames
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Right to criticise Islam is protected under British law, judge rules​

Patrick Lee wins employment tribunal which supporters hope will slow down Government rollout of Islamophobia definition

Patrick Lee, 61, was found guilty of misconduct by the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries (IFoA) last April over posts on X. After a four-year disciplinary process, he was banned from the professional body and ordered to pay nearly £23,000 in costs.

The trade body ruled that 42 of his posts that criticised Islam, including calling the Prophet Mohammed a “monster”, were “either offensive or inflammatory or both”, adding that 29 were “designed to demean or insult Muslims”.
 
RexRex said:
You don't get put in jail for having an opinion. The US is the greatest country in the world as far as free speech is concerned.

Government will always subtly influence private entities, you can't stop that. Some like Trump are just more overt about it.
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Why is it has to be always extreme punishment for some to agree that freedom of speech has declined in the US?
 
HalBass9 said:
It was 4 words. Probably going to need more words for it to be actual ‘salad’.

Thanks for copying and pasting the 1st amendment.
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I do what I can, Unfortunately I can't make you understand it and impressed that you haven't mentioned hindutva it your reply
 
HalBass9 said:
Why is it has to be always extreme punishment for some to agree that freedom of speech has declined in the US?
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Becos that thats construction of the law? about limiting government ability and at the time of framing there were not private corporations to worry about.

this should help. I'm sure you have heard of Adam Smith.

en.wikipedia.org

Adam Smith - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
RexRex said:
The question is whether the muslim majority population in western countries will push for an islamic state or islamic laws.

Islam, unlike other religions, is a political ideology so the question is valid.
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They will push in the same way as other communities lobby and push their own agenda.
 
rpant_gabba said:
Becos that thats construction of the law? about limiting government ability and at the time of framing there were not private corporations to worry about.

this should help. I'm sure you have heard of Adam Smith.

en.wikipedia.org

Adam Smith - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...

Boy, you’re arguing so hard to be right, you skipped the part where you had to actually read what was written.
 
To be honest, the U.S Constitution is not exactly a beacon of good values that everyone should look up to. While it does have alot of admirable elements, we shouldn't forget that it was written by white slave-owners who were essentially writing this document for white immigrants who had murdered most of the native population of that land and taken over it. The original document even had slavery compromises, and allowed for the import of slaves. US Constitution also does not guarantee socio-economic rights of citizens like healthcare, education,housing... and continues to have deeply problematic elements like the 2nd Amendment, which tbh reflects more poorly on modern-day Americans, rather than the authors who wrote it. On top of that, its rigid structure makes it difficult to change aswell.
 
rpant_gabba said:
Issue is not whether muslim majority nations are secular.

Its that they push of pseudosecularism when they are in minority until they are majority.

almost like a virus.
Click to expand...

That applies to any community though. Including Jews and Hindus.
 
Rajdeep said:
You are trying too hard now and I dont have time to spoon feed both you and @Cpt. Rishwat on every topic.

Critical of their government has nothing to do with being secular. The definition of secularism is tolerant towards others views, beliefs and religion. Secularism is everything Islamic republic of Pakistan stand against. Otherwise people like Taslima Nasreen, Salman Rushdie or even Malala Yusuf would not have faced intolerance. Forget everything....posters like Farhan The Man would not have been booted out of here. And for what? Just having a contradicting opinion?

Pakistanis living overseas pretend to be secular as they are in minority and no other choice. None of them are secular in nature. I chuckle (or sometimes burst out in laughter) when likes of Cpt Rishwat claims to be secular. Like yeah right and I am Queen Victoria.

Anyway, I asked you a simple question on this thread which you have still not answered -

Why is it that every country in South Asia which has muslim majority are not secular? Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, UAE, Saudi, Qatar etc etc.

Why only the countries where non muslims are in majority are secular and liberal - India, SL, Bhutan, Nepal, Japan, North Korea etc.?

Even there wherever muslims are more in numbers, like in Kashmir, we see conflicts and they dont want to live with kafirs?

I know you will never gather enough courage to answer these like you dodged all tough questions I asked you in Indian muslim thread.

You are good at opening click bait threads though to drive traffic and I give you that.

:klopp
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No nation with an official religion, nor any religious follower on Earth, adhere 100% to their faith through their laws, behaviours and practices - whatever their rhetoric.

Everyone deviates from liberals to fundamentalists as compromises with the secular world are inevitable in 21st Century society. Even a raging Islamist may require credit facilities or female relatives to remove their veil for passport photos and driving licenses. The only question is the extent of deviation.

That means concepts of truly Islamic states are pipedreams - besides even Muslims cannot agree on a single version of Islam. Attempts to create one usually end in bloodshed and abuse of power while entrenching a religious elite (as seen in Iran and Saudi Arabia). Hence, speaking only for myself, theocracy isn't an ideal.

However there's many examples worldwide (unsure why you're limiting the question to South Asia) of Muslim majority countries with values of secularism and pluralism including Bosnia, Albania, Indonesia, Sierra Leone, and Kazakhstan. All have sizeable non-Muslim minorities living peacefully with the majority.
 
RexRex said:
The question is whether the muslim majority population in western countries will push for an islamic state or islamic laws.

Islam, unlike other religions, is a political ideology so the question is valid.
Click to expand...

If they do then they would have to do it through the politcal system of democracy. This is something you believe in I assume.
 
RexRex said:
The question is whether the muslim majority population in western countries will push for an islamic state or islamic laws.

Islam, unlike other religions, is a political ideology so the question is valid.
Click to expand...
This hypothetically question has been answered thousands of times before so read and make a specific and clear objection, in this case you are discussing a hypothetical and unlikely political situation but here it is

In Politics, people will vote to elect members who will draft the laws of the land which can be challenged in the Courts of the land.

A Muslim who damages any place of worship (Muslim or non-Muslim) or does vigilantism will be arrested, charged and punished and the damage will be referred to whatever National mechanism (Insurance) etc.

In your mind, you are mixing politics and Jihad but let me tell you about the other scenario which you actually fear:

In some country of Europe, Muslims overthrow the Government, take military control and impose Qur'aan and Sunnah (in your mind Shariah Law) what happens:​
  1. Shariah law does not apply to Non-Muslims so they will continue with their lives, their religion and their places of worship​
  2. They will have the autonomy to decide their civil matters according to their belief so however a Hindu, Christian, Jew, Sikh, Atheist wants to distribute his/her inheritance it has nothing to do with Islam.​
  3. They will pay Jizyah and Muslims will pay Zakat, the common taxation (property, cars, transport etc) will be equally payable by both​

A Muslim who damages any place of worship (Muslim or non-Muslim) or does vigilantism will be arrested, charged and punished and the damage will be paid by the Muslim state and repairs done.

There are dozens of examples like this in Islamic history where Muslim in vigilante zeal damaged Alcohol (of Non-Muslims) were arrested, tried and punished and Muslim state replenished the Alcohol (which you well know is forbidden in Islam). ​

Justify your question from evidence from Qur'aan and Sunnah and primary sources of Islam and not from what you learn from WhatsApp! What happens in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria etc is not necessarily Islam just like every illegal act committed in India or by a Hindu is not necessarily a representation of Hinduism.
 
LordJames said:
This hypothetically question has been answered thousands of times before so read and make a specific and clear objection, in this case you are discussing a hypothetical and unlikely political situation but here it is

In Politics, people will vote to elect members who will draft the laws of the land which can be challenged in the Courts of the land.

A Muslim who damages any place of worship (Muslim or non-Muslim) or does vigilantism will be arrested, charged and punished and the damage will be referred to whatever National mechanism (Insurance) etc.

In your mind, you are mixing politics and Jihad but let me tell you about the other scenario which you actually fear:

In some country of Europe, Muslims overthrow the Government, take military control and impose Qur'aan and Sunnah (in your mind Shariah Law) what happens:​
  1. Shariah law does not apply to Non-Muslims so they will continue with their lives, their religion and their places of worship​
  2. They will have the autonomy to decide their civil matters according to their belief so however a Hindu, Christian, Jew, Sikh, Atheist wants to distribute his/her inheritance it has nothing to do with Islam.​
  3. They will pay Jizyah and Muslims will pay Zakat, the common taxation (property, cars, transport etc) will be equally payable by both​

A Muslim who damages any place of worship (Muslim or non-Muslim) or does vigilantism will be arrested, charged and punished and the damage will be paid by the Muslim state and repairs done.

There are dozens of examples like this in Islamic history where Muslim in vigilante zeal damaged Alcohol (of Non-Muslims) were arrested, tried and punished and Muslim state replenished the Alcohol (which you well know is forbidden in Islam). ​

Justify your question from evidence from Qur'aan and Sunnah and primary sources of Islam and not from what you learn from WhatsApp! What happens in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria etc is not necessarily Islam just like every illegal act committed in India or by a Hindu is not necessarily a representation of Hinduism.
Click to expand...
The Hindutva Conundrum:

When an answer is given to Hindutva, their mind cannot accept that it is possible for Islam to dominate without the sword as their WhatsApp groups have educated them this way so they ask for an example of a country today where Islam was not spread with a sword!

Obvious Answer: Indonesia which is the largest Muslim country on Earth​
  1. Muslims never waged Jihad on Indonesia
  2. Non-Muslims who didn't convert still live side-by-side and never left!
Regional Answer: Mindanao (Philippines) and I can give dozens of example.

In Islam, an Indonesian Muslim is no different to Afghans (who were defeated in Jihad) and accepted Islam and I can give dozens of examples...​

Millions of Muslims live in the West and go about their lives praying, fasting etc without any issues while living under British or Canadian or American laws but if the constituion changes and we have 45 Hijabi Sisters making laws in 2026, my individual responsibilities will not change.
  1. I will still pray
  2. I will still fast
  3. I will still not deal with Interest whatever the law says...
  4. I would still help David (my neighbour) fix his car...
 
RexRex said:
Hmm I need to see a rebuttal from our resident UK/US muslims here on this topic @Stewie @Cpt.Rishwat @KingKhanWC @DeadlyVenom @Markhor and @HalBass9
Click to expand...
Nobody knows what’s an Islamic state. Do you?
Even Muslims don’t know what an “Islamic state” really looks like.

So it’s important first of all to get that concept clear first before we proceed down this path.

But in terms of the allegations mentioned by the guy you are quoting, I have no response for idiots and self proclaimed “facts” without any solid evidence.
 
RexRex said:
I'm curious to know if the OP aka @The Bald Eagle agrees that Pakistan should stop being an islamic state and should make its constitution secular.
Click to expand...
Good question appreciate, I really unequivocally want it to be an Islamic republic in true sense, not a fascist state ruled by autocrats under the garb of Islamic republic where they want immunity for life. Certainly, in no way Pakistan has been a true Islamic republic ever but just a nominal Islamic republic.

And for clarification, I don't even consider Talibans' govt the same. True Islamic republic should be based on teachings of Islam not someone's whims and desires. And this is entirely feasible notion as we can look up to the example of governance of pious caliphs of Islam and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
 
The Bald Eagle said:
Good question appreciate, I really unequivocally want it to be an Islamic republic in true sense, not a fascist state ruled by autocrats under the garb of Islamic republic where they want immunity for life. Certainly, in no way Pakistan has been a true Islamic republic ever but just a nominal Islamic republic.

And for clarification, I don't even consider Talibans' govt the same. True Islamic republic should be based on teachings of Islam not someone's whims and desires. And this is entirely feasible notion as we can look up to the example of governance of pious caliphs of Islam and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
Click to expand...
I remember reading someone on this forum once say that there has never been a 'True' Islamic Republic or if there was, it was a for a brief period 1400 years ago.

Given the 1400 year track record since then, I wonder why most Muslims haven't yet accepted the fact that a 'True' Islamic Republic is not possible for people in today's world. If that is accepted, the corollary would follow that a modern secular liberal democracy is a better setup than an improper Islamic State. For some reason though, even educated Muslims like you still yearn for the Islamic Republic in their home country even if imperfect.
 
Red-Indian said:
I remember reading someone on this forum once say that there has never been a 'True' Islamic Republic or if there was, it was a for a brief period 1400 years ago.

Given the 1400 year track record since then, I wonder why most Muslims haven't yet accepted the fact that a 'True' Islamic Republic is not possible for people in today's world. If that is accepted, the corollary would follow that a modern secular liberal democracy is a better setup than an improper Islamic State. For some reason though, even educated Muslims like you still yearn for the Islamic Republic in their home country even if imperfect.
Click to expand...
I believe it is still possible and the ideal Islamic state from Caliphs time will again come into being...We may or may not be alive then. I wonder what aspects of Islam are not applicable in modern times given Muslims could formulate new laws to deal with complex modern day problems through tools of Ijtihad (Logical reasoning), Ijma (Unanimous agreement after consultation), Qiyas (Legal Analogy) etc
 
The Bald Eagle said:
I believe it is still possible and the ideal Islamic state from Caliphs time will again come into being...We may or may not be alive then. I wonder what aspects of Islam are not applicable in modern times given Muslims could formulate new laws to deal with complex modern day problems through tools of Ijtihad (Logical reasoning), Ijma (Unanimous agreement after consultation), Qiyas (Legal Analogy) etc
Click to expand...
I know you religious folks have to have this faith but even you have to admit this is unlikely for the next few hundred years given we've been in the Nation-State era for roughly the last 400 years. If that's the case, why not hope that Pakistan becomes a modern, secular, liberal State since those seem to be the best form of government currently?
 
Red-Indian said:
I know you religious folks have to have this faith but even you have to admit this is unlikely for the next few hundred years given we've been in the Nation-State era for roughly the last 400 years. If that's the case, why not hope that Pakistan becomes a modern, secular, liberal State since those seem to be the best form of government currently?
Click to expand...
My friend nobody settles for the second best, when they have a footprint to be the best. You could disagree, but Islam is more tolerant and moderate when it comes to dealing with minority and realizing the principle of co-existence. I hope we are not derailing this thread because that topic itself warrants a debate
 
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