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Would India have been able to compete with Australia if they had Smith, Warner, Bancroft, Pattinson?

Chrish said:
India would have competed well if those players weren’t missing from Aussie line up. I don’t predict Smith would average 200 and Warner 100 like last time. This Indian bowling attack is much more potent than the one that was belted last time around. Bumrah has been amazing. Instant is vastly improved bowler etc. Moreover wickets are more sporting compared to previous tour as well.

I would say series result would have been 80-20 in favor of Australia if Smith/ Warner were playing. However, credit where it’s due. Asian teams in the past have crumbled against weak Australian team but they have overcome this immense psychological hurdle and it’s indeed praiseworthy.
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This. Even I think Australia would have performed better with Smith and Warner. Right now their batting looks pretty poor.
 
Aman said:
3-0 Australia and Indians know this deep down.

Warner and Smith would have broken down the Indian bowlers and left the scraps for the rest to feast on.
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Right now as it stands Australian bowlers have bowled 100 plus overs in last 3 testmatches
 
Yes, Australia are missing 2 of their batsmen, but whats keeping them from running thru Indian Batsman. Except for Kohli and Pujara, Indian bating is very fragile and they don't have decent openers. If you go back and look at India's overseas series loses, most of the time it's their batsmen who have failed them.
They can only play whats in front of them.
 
It's still no mean feat beating Aus in Aus without Smith & Warner. Imo the only sides who would beat this current Aus side in Aus would be either SA or as they are presently doing India. England would possibly have a chance but they lack the pace bowlers. As for the rest of the Asian sides they would be lucky to even win a match.

You can only beat what is in front of you and well done to India for doing that, there is no much using hypothetical scenarios to predict what could have happened. I think some of my fellow Pakistani posters are trying to use this excuse of no Smith & Warner as a coping mechanism to the shellacking we are currently receiving in SA. :sarf2:abbas1
 
May be they should put * against the series win.
* Smith and Warner did not play
2011 WC win
* Aamir did not play

1983 WC win
* Too cold for WI in England.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
3 key match winners of the Aussie team are missing from this series and they are still making India fight till death to remain competitive.

Had Smith, Warner and Pattinson all been available for this series at their peak powers Australia would probably have been dominating India quite convincingly.

Comments
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I don't think Smith and Warner are good enough bowlers to have reduced India's total of 622/7d substantially :))
 
Napa said:
I don't think Smith and Warner are good enough bowlers to have reduced India's total of 622/7d substantially :))
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I think the only thing Smith and Warner could have done to reduce the total is by using more sandpaper on the cricket ball. :smith:ma:vk2
 
Napa said:
I don't think Smith and Warner are good enough bowlers to have reduced India's total of 622/7d substantially :))
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If Smith and Warner been there, they would have Sandpapered the ball and in turn would have helped Starc and Hazlewood produce those banana swing and Indian would be 102-8 instead of 627-8.
 
Yes Australia would be stronger if they had warner and smith, but India would be even stronger if they had shah, Agrawal, and jadeja playing in every test match. They would have kept the dead weight out like vijay, Lokesh and umesh yadav. India would literally be firing on all cylinders. And unlike Smith And warner. Mayank, and jadeja have already proven themselves in this series. The two matches they played they have helped put India in dominant positions in the very first innings before the aussies even got a chance to bat and collapse.

On the other hand with Even with Smith and warner their still a lot of dead weight in the Aussie team. You have to be delusional not to see that. And their no guarantees they would score runs especially since their last series they played they got dominated by an attack that is statistically no better than the current Indian one.
 
From what I see and hear in posts, Warner+Smith seem to have batting prowess of Richards+Tendulkar+Bradman+Ponting combined. If that was case, just like NZ defeated Pakistan in UAE, australia would have done same a series earlier in UAE.
Pretty sure even if Warner+Smith had played in Adelaide,they would not have bowled to stop India from winning.
In Perth , if Warner/Smith had played, the Aus openers who had played ,would not scored 130 opening partnership which was the reason they won, because they would not have been in the team in the first place .
Besides, both Warner and Smith are known to have score in single digits before and there is no gurantee they would not have done same against Bumrah and company.


After the first test loss against SA, all fans felt if Abbas was there they would have won.
Well he played in second test. He is being bashed up pretty badly by weak African batting lineup. Similarly Warner+ Smith would have failed too. In short absence or presence of certain players do not guarantee success.

Besides if that is logic, Shaw who has an average of 100+ in tests did not play either or India would have won Perth test as well.. Or if Bhuvneshwar had played England series , England would have lost badly
 
Glad we have some Aussie point of view. We usually take quite a bit of hits from Indian fans just because our team is poor.

Back to the OP. I think nothing should be taken away from India performance even without Smith/Warner. Not so long ago India used rock likes of Praveen Kumar, Vinay Kumar, Ashok Dinda, Piyush Chawala, RP Singh etc in bowling, but they came long away and now have one of if not the best bowling attack in ODIs and tests.

Although neutral, I am obviously glad Ind is sandpapering the Aussies in this series after all the bickering Aus has been doing to BD.

Now with all that being said, if I were an Indian fan I would not go over board thinking this is some legendary test team. Missing some top rated key players does make a world of difference. Remember although India dominated without Kholi in Asia cup they almost lost to Hong Kong in the opener and did just about enough to get past BD in the final.
 
BDfanforever said:
Glad we have some Aussie point of view. We usually take quite a bit of hits from Indian fans just because our team is poor.

Back to the OP. I think nothing should be taken away from India performance even without Smith/Warner. Not so long ago India used rock likes of Praveen Kumar, Vinay Kumar, Ashok Dinda, Piyush Chawala, RP Singh etc in bowling, but they came long away and now have one of if not the best bowling attack in ODIs and tests.

Although neutral, I am obviously glad Ind is sandpapering the Aussies in this series after all the bickering Aus has been doing to BD.

Now with all that being said, if I were an Indian fan I would not go over board thinking this is some legendary test team. Missing some top rated key players does make a world of difference. Remember although India dominated without Kholi in Asia cup they almost lost to Hong Kong in the opener and did just about enough to get past BD in the final.
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That is because Hong Kong was second best team in Asia cup and BD does get lucky in one odd match after 10 losses
 
I hate this "if" word so much. It discredits so many good things. There should never be a question of if and but. It is what it is. That's it.
 
Aman said:
Smith and Warner would have put the runs on the board and taken pressure off the players around them to score. They'd be coming in at scores of 200/3 instead of 50/3. Smith was the best Test batsmen in the world before he was banned.

Pattinson wouldn't make a difference.
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I am surprised you have come back to your senses.. Weren't you one of those posters implying Kohli > Smith in previous thread? Or were you just purposely trolling?
 
ikky47 said:
I think the only thing Smith and Warner could have done to reduce the total is by using more sandpaper on the cricket ball. :smith:ma:vk2
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Birdman said:
If Smith and Warner been there, they would have Sandpapered the ball and in turn would have helped Starc and Hazlewood produce those banana swing and Indian would be 102-8 instead of 627-8.
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Very true... I completely forgot about their talents other than batting :)))
 
Napa said:
I don't think Smith and Warner are good enough bowlers to have reduced India's total of 622/7d substantially :))
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Australia is not only lacking batting of Smith and Warner but also their leadership. Smith wasnt the best tactician but used to lead from the front and Warner was the vice captain.

I am pretty sure they could have handled the bowlers much better.
 
This current Indian team would still have been good enough to draw a test series in Australia, but with Smith and warner don't think Australia would lose the series at home. I think it's time to realize Australia are a shadow of themselves in test cricket, and it has been so for the last 8/10 years. Winning a test series in South Africa is a far greater challenge for subcontinent teams.
 
Chrish said:
I am surprised you have come back to your senses.. Weren't you one of those posters implying Kohli > Smith in previous thread? Or were you just purposely trolling?
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I said they were close with Smith ahead due to doing it longer. But there was a stretch where Kohli was scoring doubles for fun where I thought he was better at that period of time and preferred his batting because he was better to watch.

I still think Kohli is the best batsmen of this generation.
 
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Torborg said:
Smith would have averaged somewhere between 120 and 300, and Warner would have been irrelevant for the most part when he wasn't smashing double centuries in a day.

I'm glad that Kohli felt confident enough to play international cricket when Shane Warne retired. We're hospitable in Australia, so we could have accommodated your needs sooner if you asked nicely. :)
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Smith is done, Bumrah would have had him for breakfast. Don't give excuses. I like Aussies but it is sounding like little girl crying.
 
Titan24 said:
Australia is not only lacking batting of Smith and Warner but also their leadership. Smith wasnt the best tactician but used to lead from the front and Warner was the vice captain.

I am pretty sure they could have handled the bowlers much better.
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The leadership issue joins a long list of creative excuses offered to minimize India's victories. Paine's leadership is as good as Smith's. The problem for the Aussies is that the Indians team has many very good players.
 
Personally think it would have been a more even contest (remember this Indian was unable to win in Eng and RSA with the same line up).
I don't think it can be stated as 3 players out hence the domination these players were not out due injury but suspension and I think the Australian side has had a hard time recovering from what happened March.
 
Everybody is making a huge deal out of absence of Smith and Warner..

..yet nobody seems to be mentioning the fact that in the current Indian squad around 5-6 players are playing their first series in Australia.

It's not as if Warner and Smith got injured or something like that. They cheated and paid for it and yet we have fans trying to downplay India's performance by constantly bringing up their absence.
Weak batting line up or not , this is Australia in their own backyard we are talking about who arguably have the best bowling attack in the bowling. Beating them was never going to be easy.
It's a huge accomplishment for an Asian team and deserves praise imo.
 
Pakistan beat Australia in the UAE with Warner, Clarke, Smith
 
Also, Warner averaged 36 in his last test series while Smith averaged 24. This bowling attack is different from the one Smith bashed last time.
 
no body would have question Aus team if your same team have not lost a test series to SA and eng .this aus batting is worse in their history that have lost a test series to number 7 rank pakistan in uae where nz beaten pakistan easily
 
TM Riddle said:
..yet nobody seems to be mentioning the fact that in the current Indian squad around 5-6 players are playing their first series in Australia.

It's not as if Warner and Smith got injured or something like that. They cheated and paid for it and yet we have fans trying to downplay India's performance by constantly bringing up their absence.
Weak batting line up or not , this is Australia in their own backyard we are talking about who arguably have the best bowling attack in the bowling. Beating them was never going to be easy.
It's a huge accomplishment for an Asian team and deserves praise imo.
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it is the typical subcontinental jealousy and crab mentality.
 
saeed5646 said:
no body would have question Aus team if your same team have not lost a test series to SA and eng .this aus batting is worse in their history that have lost a test series to number 7 rank pakistan in uae where nz beaten pakistan easily
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India were competitive enough in SA and Eng (barring the tosses) to make this win in Australia not a surprise.

NZ easily won that series in the UAE? Now you're just making things up.
 
Sachin136 said:
Also, Warner averaged 36 in his last test series while Smith averaged 24. This bowling attack is different from the one Smith bashed last time.
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comparing a home average to Away :sarf2.Warner and steven smith are one of the best home track bulley they thrive on aus pitches and i dare to say they would have score heap of runs if they were playing in current series
 
Sachin136 said:
India were competitive enough in SA and Eng (barring the tosses) to make this win in Australia not a surprise.

NZ easily won that series in the UAE? Now you're just making things up.
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Current SA and Eng was for taking they are not a great test side they used to be .at the end the result count and india lost to both of them .

Better side win so yeah nz won that easily
 
saeed5646 said:
comparing a home average to Away :sarf2.Warner and steven smith are one of the best home track bulley they thrive on aus pitches and i dare to say they would have score heap of runs if they were playing in current series
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i dare say that bhuvi would have taken 10-fers and pandya would have hit centuries if they were playing in the current series. easy to dare say when it cannot be proven or disproven.

but i dare say something that can be proven/disproven. no other asian team is going to win a test series in australia for the next 10 years at least.
 
CricketCartoons said:
i dare say that bhuvi would have taken 10-fers and pandya would have hit centuries if they were playing in the current series. easy to dare say when it cannot be proven or disproven.

but i dare say something that can be proven/disproven. no other asian team is going to win a test series in australia for the next 10 years at least.
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What is smith and warner batting average in aus ?if you got the answer than compare it with pandya .no body knows what will be future look like we might see bd winning a test series in aus?
 
If Pakistan were touring Australia and were in this position, everyone would have been celebrating the dawn of a new era.

But they would never be in this position and would be 3-0 by now.
 
saeed5646 said:
What is smith and warner batting average in aus ?if you got the answer than compare it with pandya .no body knows what will be future look like we might see bd winning a test series in aus?
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their batting average doesn't prove what they would have scored in this series. you are just making things up.

no body knows the future, that is why i dare to predict it. in next 10 years no other asian team will win a test series in australia. no way, no how, no thanks.
 
A win is a win is a win. Especially in Australia. This Aussie bowling attack in particular was hailed before the series had started as one of the best around, and potentially the best Australia have had after McGrath, Gillespie, Lee and Warne. Nobody belittles Australia's victory in India, despite Ganguly and Harbhajan missing matches so same standard should be applied here.

I'm more disappointed we let this Australian batting line-up bat out an entire day against us. Would expect better from our bowling attack on a 5th day UAE pitch.
 
Dr_Bassim said:
If Pakistan were touring Australia and were in this position, everyone would have been celebrating the dawn of a new era.

But they would never be in this position and would be 3-0 by now.
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It is not about pakistan buddy .pakistan is terrible test side and i agree every single victory would have celebrated .you are comparing apple with orange
 
CricketCartoons said:
their batting average doesn't prove what they would have scored in this series. you are just making things up.

no body knows the future, that is why i dare to predict it. in next 10 years no other asian team will win a test series in australia. no way, no how, no thanks.
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There numbers at home are extra ordinary and if the myth is right SA won a test series against india due to ABD heroic than you cannot discount smith or warner absence on the end result.
 
saeed5646 said:
It is not about pakistan buddy .pakistan is terrible test side and i agree every single victory would have celebrated .you are comparing apple with orange
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India are not a much better away side and only recently have started improving away so off course it would be celebrated by Indians.

Plus, who doesn't celebrate victories?

The opposition, salty fans of the opposition but in our case there seems to be a 3rd category where fans of Pakistan get upset at India winning away to some other country.
 
When India lost against Aus at home in 2004, Tendulkar was missing in first two games. When Eng won famous 2005 Ashes, Mcgrath was missing in few games.

You always need some form of luck going in your way when winning such series. India can only beat what's in front of them but there is nothing wrong in admitting that absence of these players played important part in final result. As I have said before, Aus were crap in 80s and Asian sides still failed to win.
 
Chrish said:
When India lost against Aus at home in 2004, Tendulkar was missing in first two games. When Eng won famous 2005 Ashes, Mcgrath was missing in few games.

You always need some form of luck going in your way when winning such series. India can only beat what's in front of them but there is nothing wrong in admitting that absence of these players played important part in final result. As I have said before, Aus were crap in 80s and Asian sides still failed to win.
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yes. They came close to win. Rain and Alan Border saved the day for Australia. India absolutely thrashed AUstralia in A ustralia in all 3 tests. Miraculously Australia escaped in all 3 tests.
 
saeed5646 said:
There numbers at home are extra ordinary and if the myth is right SA won a test series against india due to ABD heroic than you cannot discount smith or warner absence on the end result.
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fact: you cannot say for sure how a player will perform in a series based on past averages.

fact: winning due to presence cannot be compared to losing due to absence.
 
With them India would just win the series ..not thrash them. It's pure thrashing this time. Australia is following on for the first time in last 30 years of cricket.
 
jnaveen1980 said:
yes. They came close to win. Rain and Alan Border saved the day for Australia. India absolutely thrashed AUstralia in A ustralia in all 3 tests. Miraculously Australia escaped in all 3 tests.
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Border.. What a player!
 
I don't think that India would've been able to compete without Smith, Warner, Bancroft, Clive Rose and Trent Lawford.
 
Savak said:
Pakistan beat Australia in the UAE with Warner, Clarke, Smith
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And?

India/Pakistan both would crush Australia even if they bring back Ponting, Hayden, Gikchrist and Shane Warne.
 
Pattinson is available,busy bowling 135 kph in BBL

As for Smith and Warner,they might have drawn the series with them,but its Aus bowling which failed both in MCG and SCG
 
CricketCartoons said:
fact: you cannot say for sure how a player will perform in a series based on past averages.

fact: winning due to presence cannot be compared to losing due to absence.
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smith averages 77 in test at home while david warner 59 .if you still think they would have failed in single test series against india than there is nothing to discuss with you

remove virat and pujara from indian test lineup then you would automatically miss the absence of 2 vital player
 
It would have been 2-2 probably unless Smith had played a monstrous innings in Melbourne and Sydney.

But I still feel that Aus would have won the first test considering the margin and would have saved its honour. A 2-2 would have been pretty decent against this mighty Indian team.
 
Dr_Bassim said:
India are not a much better away side and only recently have started improving away so off course it would be celebrated by Indians.

Plus, who doesn't celebrate victories?

The opposition, salty fans of the opposition but in our case there seems to be a 3rd category where fans of Pakistan get upset at India winning away to some other country.
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you might be one of them buts lets not generalize the whole country .maybe not many care about it
 
saeed5646 said:
smith averages 77 in test at home while david warner 59 .if you still think they would have failed in single test series against india than there is nothing to discuss with you

remove virat and pujara from indian test lineup then you would automatically miss the absence of 2 vital player
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I didn't claim they would fail. I only said that you cannot claim anything based on someone's past average. All you are doing is guesswork about a hypothetical situation in the past, which has zero value. If you want to do guesswork do it for the near future so that it can be tested against actual results.
 
CricketCartoons said:
I didn't claim they would fail. I only said that you cannot claim anything based on someone's past average. All you are doing is guesswork about a hypothetical situation in the past, which has zero value. If you want to do guesswork do it for the near future so that it can be tested against actual results.
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practice what you preach

no body knows the future, that is why i dare to predict it. in next 10 years no other asian team will win a test series in australia. no way, no how, no thanks
Click to expand...
 
[MENTION=139510]saeed5646[/MENTION] - Here you are saying Smith/Warner is a huge miss for Australia but in another thread you claim AbDv is not a loss for SA? :uakmal

All these discussions are meaningless brother. The fact is, India won the series in Australia due to some exceptional cricket and in doing so become the 1st Asian team to do so. On the other hand, Pak lost the test series in SA by losing 2 tests in 7 days (as expected).

Peace bruv :)
 
Since it's so easy to win tests when you have players out Pakistan should beat SA in the next game if Amla,Markahm,and Faf are out. Want to see the excuses if we don't.
 
Canford Cliffs said:
[MENTION=139510]saeed5646[/MENTION] - Here you are saying Smith/Warner is a huge miss for Australia but in another thread you claim AbDv is not a loss for SA? :uakmal

All these discussions are meaningless brother. The fact is, India won the series in Australia due to some exceptional cricket and in doing so become the 1st Asian team to do so. On the other hand, Pak lost the test series in SA by losing 2 tests in 7 days (as expected).

Peace bruv :)
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comparing apple with orange

Current SA team (minus ABD) is better than Current AUS (minus smith,warner).the SA team have beaten much better aussie team than this crap team which will be whitewash easily by them unless smith,warner return.

BTW its seems you want to put words in my mouth .i said if SA had ABD india have virat who was equally good in that series .so losing a series was not only due to abd:ma

discussion is about aus i have never claim anything related to pakistan btw too much chest pumping did your team won a series against originally strong side rather then bullying a aus team that lost to 7th rank pakistan
 
saeed5646 said:
it remind me of these lines

my dog is dog and your dog is tommy
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tell me how your statement can be verified, that IF smith and warner played, australia would have won. To verify that one needs a time machine and change the sequence of events so that they are not banned and get to play.

To verify my statement, one simply has to be alive 10 years from now.

now tell me which one is easily possible and which one isn't. It should be easy even for you.
 
CricketCartoons said:
tell me how your statement can be verified, that IF smith and warner played, australia would have won. To verify that one needs a time machine and change the sequence of events so that they are not banned and get to play.

To verify my statement, one simply has to be alive 10 years from now.

now tell me which one is easily possible and which one isn't. It should be easy even for you.
Click to expand...

if you can justify the statement of your then i will"
"in next 10 years no other asian team will win a test series in australia. no way "
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India could have asked Aus to follow on in the 2 tests out of 4 here. If I recall it right, Aus didn't follow on at home in the last 25 years.

It's safe to say that India would have competed pretty well in this series even if Smith/Warner were there and even if they had contributed well.
 
Buffet said:
India could have asked Aus to follow on in the 2 tests out of 4 here. If I recall it right, Aus didn't follow on at home in the last 25 years.

It's safe to say that India would have competed pretty well in this series even if Smith/Warner were there and even if they had contributed well.
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A simple fact is lost among others. A considerably inferior Indian team only lost 0-2 last time when Smith had an unreal series. That too, one loss was due to preferring to go for a win instead of draw at Adelaide.
 
saeed5646 said:
if you can justify the statement of your then i will"
Click to expand...

I don't need to justify my statement. It is a prediction which can be easily verified in due time. Yours cannot, unless you invent a time machine. still struggling to grasp the difference?
 
jadaja said:
Smith is done, Bumrah would have had him for breakfast. Don't give excuses. I like Aussies but it is sounding like little girl crying.
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Smith was the number 1 batsmen in the world, and you think he would have been owned on his home decks by Bumrah?

Doubtful.

Take a look at the batting averages of Smith and Warner playing at home against other high caliber bowlers, some better than Bumrah.
 
Torborg said:
Smith was the number 1 batsmen in the world, and you think he would have been owned on his home decks by Bumrah?

Doubtful.

Take a look at the batting averages of Smith and Warner playing at home against other high caliber bowlers, some better than Bumrah.
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Kohli is currently the best batsman in the world, and he had a mediocre series when Australia toured India. Hard to discuss hypotheticals.
 
PerfectionPersonified said:
With Smith and Warner in, this would have been 3-0 ( in Aussie favour)
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Aussies won 2-0 in the 4 match series in 2014 when india last toured. But that indian bowling attack was nothing more than club level. With this Indian bowling attack, I don't see how Aussies would hv won 3-0. May be this series could have been a lot closer with Aussies winning 2-1.(had smith and Warner played)
 
TheRock said:
Aussies won 2-0 in the 4 match series in 2014 when india last toured. But that indian bowling attack was nothing more than club level. With this Indian bowling attack, I don't see how Aussies would hv won 3-0. May be this series could have been a lot closer with Aussies winning 2-1.(had smith and Warner played)
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Agreed. This is a stronger Indian team than the last touring side.

With Smith and Warner in, I think it would have been 2-1 Aus.

From the start, I think Warner would have bludgeoned the Indian attack and Smith would have blunted them (like Pujara after 2 red bulls).
 
Hitman said:
Would have, should have, etc does not work in the real practical world. The only thing that matters is what has happened.
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Fantasy is the foundation of life for people who live in the real world. <shrugs>

Maybe I'll wake up tomorrow to a 4-0 Aussie win. Lol
 
Torborg said:
Smith was the number 1 batsmen in the world, and you think he would have been owned on his home decks by Bumrah?

Doubtful.

Take a look at the batting averages of Smith and Warner playing at home against other high caliber bowlers, some better than Bumrah.
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How did Smith do in SA before he was banned, even with Smith and Warner India lost 2-0 ( one test was a loss due India going for the target) last series with a very weak bowling attack.Don't you think it would have done lot better this time around.

India beat Australia at home without Kohli who was out injured. If a team depends on two players that too at home, it has bigger problems.

I do agree it would have been closer series. But Indians dismantled your best bowling attack.
 
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Prithvi Shaw was injured otherwise this would have 3-0 win for India. Bumrah and Bhuvi were injured in England otherwise India would have won that series. We can keep on going.
 
Why not...besides its not India's fault Smith and Co are not there..
 
jadaja said:
How did Smith do in SA before he was banned, even with Smith and Warner India lost 2-0 ( one test was a loss due India going for the target) last series with a very weak bowling attack.Don't you think it would have done lot better this time around.

India beat Australia at home without Kohli who was out injured. If a team depends on two players that too at home, it has bigger problems.

I do agree it would have been closer series. But Indians dismantled your best bowling attack.
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Australia won the first test in SA, so it wasn't all bad news.

When did India defeat Australia at home while Kohli was injured? If my memory isn't failing me, I believe he averaged almost 10 in the 2017 test series. Mitch Marsh would be proud!

I guess we have differing definitions of 'dismantled'. I'll leave it there. Lol

Geez, some Indians seem overly insecure. We get it, really...you won.
 
Torborg said:
Australia won the first test in SA, so it wasn't all bad news.

When did India defeat Australia at home while Kohli was injured? If my memory isn't failing me, I believe he averaged almost 10 in the 2017 test series. Mitch Marsh would be proud!

I guess we have differing definitions of 'dismantled'. I'll leave it there. Lol

Geez, some Indians seem overly insecure. We get it, really...you won.
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Still hurting and sore mate?
 
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