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Zafar Gohar or Mohammad Nawaz as a spinning all-rounder for Pakistan in Tests?

Bigboii

Bigboii

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Pretty self explanatory

I like Zafar more cause his bowling is better than Nawaz and he is a decent bat
 
[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] You don't like Zafar's bowling (to some extent I agree with you cause I'll take Nauman, Sajid over him as a specialist spinner any day)

But for an all rounder role who would you take
 
Zafar is better he scored in New Zealand which Nawaz couldn't do even in his dreams he is also wicket taking option, only thing which goes against him is he leaks lot of runs which goes in favour of Nawaz who contains and bowls wicket to wicket.
 
Bigboii said:
[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] You don't like Zafar's bowling (to some extent I agree with you cause I'll take Nauman, Sajid over him as a specialist spinner any day)

But for an all rounder role who would you take
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We all want a spinner that can bat, but first and foremost he has to hold his position in the team as a spinner, if its marginal you go for the better batsman but none of these guys are any good as spinners.
If you are asking me which of the Spinning bowling ARs i like, then an honest answer is none. Shadab is the best batsman out of these guys and will offer real depth at 7/8, but his Leg spinner has totally disappeared. Nawaz is a good batting 8, but he isnt a Test spinner, and like Zafar barely looks FC. Zafar himself looked decent at 8, but as i said, he doesnt look like a spinner that should be playing Fc never mind tests.
I will wait to see NA on the better cameras to make full judgement( he doesnt look terrible but his action is too round arm to get sharp spin) but from what i have seen of Sajid, he is awful. If i am wrong about him, then let there be egg on my face but nothing would me make happier because we would have a genuine spinner for PK.
 
b.lesner said:
Zafar is better he scored in New Zealand which Nawaz couldn't do even in his dreams he is also wicket taking option, only thing which goes against him is he leaks lot of runs which goes in favour of Nawaz who contains and bowls wicket to wicket.
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So far i havent had a single person tell what they saw in Zafars bowling that makes think that he is a genuine spinner.
 
Zafar joins the ever growing list of 1-test players produced by Pakistan.
 
Zafar is nothing special. He is not al all rounder he is a bowler who bats..nawaz is equal batter and bowler. Zafar is no doubt better bowler than nawaz but doesnt give you the balance.

I believe if faheem plays then nawaz has to..if he doesnt we need sajid or nauman to play. Thats the only decision left for first test team rest is hundred.percent guaranteed
 
Zafar was incredibly hard-done. Made his debut in New Zealand, on a pitch that is considered a graveyard for spinners, and dropped immediately after.

On one hand, Wasim claims to give domestic performers a chance yet Zafar who was the player of the tournament last season and was excellent with both bat and ball gets dropped immediately in place of Nawaz, who although gave good performances did not nearly give the kind of performances as Zafar.

And can we please stop calling Nawaz a spinner? Because I have barely ever seen him actually spin the ball.
 
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RedwoodOriginal said:
Zafar was incredibly hard-done. Made his debut in New Zealand, on a pitch that is considered a graveyard for spinners, and dropped immediately after.

On one hand, Wasim claims to give domestic performers a chance yet Zafar who was the player of the tournament last season and was excellent with both bat and ball gets dropped immediately in place of Nawaz, who although gave good performances did not nearly give the kind of performances as Zafar.

And can we please stop calling Nawaz a spinner? Because I have barely ever seen him actually spin the ball.
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What do you like about his bowling, does he spin the ball sharply, does he have flight like the SL left armer.
 
There is no doubt he was hard done but wasim never picked him in first place. I do like the guy as he is hard working and has come through the system. The question is he the best spinner in tye country no he isnt nor does his stats suggest. I am sure he will get his chance
 
Bewal Express said:
What do you like about his bowling, does he spin the ball sharply, does he have flight like the SL left armer.
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The thing that stands out is the ability to bowl long spells on flat wickets and still pick up wickets. The pitches last season were very unforgiving for the bowlers but he managed to give very good and consistent all-round performances.

His main tool is unsurprisingly, his flight. But his effectiveness in deceiving batsman in flight depends on the surface. He does possess the ability to take the ball away from the right-hander very sharply, if the wicket has enough turn. Seems like a more dynamic spinner than Sajid Khan, who I was not impressed by at all this season even though he picked up alot of wickets.

Nauman Ali is another good spinner. He too is slow-left arm. Quite skilled and adept at bowling with discipline, which is what you expect from SLA bowlers. I saw only a little bit of him this season but I think he was the leading wicket-taker last season. After Yasir, Nauman and Zafar are probably the best spinners we have.
 
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RedwoodOriginal said:
The thing that stands out is the ability to bowl long spells on flat wickets and still pick up wickets. The pitches last season were very unforgiving for the bowlers but he managed to give very good and consistent all-round performances.

His main tool is unsurprisingly, his flight. But his effectiveness in deceiving batsman in flight depends on the surface. He does possess the ability to take the ball away from the right-hander very sharply, if the wicket has enough turn. Seems like a more dynamic spinner than Sajid Khan, who I was not impressed by at all this season even though he picked up alot of wickets.

Nauman Ali is another good spinner. He too is slow-left arm. Quite skilled and adept at bowling with discipline, which is what you expect from SLA bowlers. I saw only a little bit of him this season but I think he was the leading wicket-taker last season. After Yasir, Nauman and Zafar are probably the best spinners we have.
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I forgot to mention Zahid Mehmood. He too is a pretty good spinner. But I don't think the side needs another leg-spinner with Yasir and Shadab already there.
 
Nawaz for me is just not a serious option for test cricket. I know his stats will tell you differently and credit where credit is due, he has performed in recent seasons with both bat and ball. But somehow I feel he will be badly exposed in test matches because he does realistically possess the ability to spin the ball. And his batting ability is also not something I have confidence in having seen him bat in international cricket.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
The thing that stands out is the ability to bowl long spells on flat wickets and still pick up wickets. The pitches last season were very unforgiving for the bowlers but he managed to give very good and consistent all-round performances.

His main tool is unsurprisingly, his flight. But his effectiveness in deceiving batsman in flight depends on the surface. He does possess the ability to take the ball away from the right-hander very sharply, if the wicket has enough turn. Seems like a more dynamic spinner than Sajid Khan, who I was not impressed by at all this season even though he picked up alot of wickets.

Nauman Ali is another good spinner. He too is slow-left arm. Quite skilled and adept at bowling with discipline, which is what you expect from SLA bowlers. I saw only a little bit of him this season but I think he was the leading wicket-taker last season. After Yasir, Nauman and Zafar are probably the best spinners we have.
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I agree with the long spells but I don't see anything of the other qualities you suggest. When I saw him at the U19 he looked the real deal, this version is a shadow of that bowler. There was little or no flight that deceived the batsman, and with his current action he won't be able to spin the ball to beat the bat and to me he looked like a partimer. Lets hope you guys are right and he becomes the bowler you are suggesting.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I forgot to mention Zahid Mehmood. He too is a pretty good spinner. But I don't think the side needs another leg-spinner with Yasir and Shadab already there.
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Zahid has even less control than Yasir. At least one 4 ball an over, if not more. His strength is his pace and bounce but doesn't have enough control to be able to use on a consistent basis.
 
Bewal Express said:
Zahid has even less control than Yasir. At least one 4 ball an over, if not more. His strength is his pace and bounce but doesn't have enough control to be able to use on a consistent basis.
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Yeah I agree he lacks control. But after Yasir and Shadab he is your number one leg spinner.
 
Bewal Express said:
I agree with the long spells but I don't see anything of the other qualities you suggest. When I saw him at the U19 he looked the real deal, this version is a shadow of that bowler. There was little or no flight that deceived the batsman, and with his current action he won't be able to spin the ball to beat the bat and to me he looked like a partimer. Lets hope you guys are right and he becomes the bowler you are suggesting.
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Honestly I prefer Nauman. He is not being discussed here because no one here has actually seen him play. But he is very good imo. Like I said, he has skill, he can bowl consistently and with discipline. And he probably understands the local pitches very well. That is one inclusion by Wasim that I think deserves to be commended. Would be a shame if he doesn't get a debut in Karachi.

That said, I think Zafar should have been the third (backup) spinner over Sajid Khan
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Honestly I prefer Nauman. He is not being discussed here because no one here has actually seen him play. But he is very good imo. Like I said, he has skill, he can bowl consistently and with discipline. And he probably understands the local pitches very well. That is one inclusion by Wasim that I think deserves to be commended. Would be a shame if he doesn't get a debut in Karachi.

That said, I think Zafar should have been the third (backup) spinner over Sajid Khan
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I have seen NA play and he is ok, action is a little too round arm but with all those years of experience, he knows his action and game. Sajid reminds me of desi taxi drivers playing Sunday parks league cricket
 
Nawaz is a very good option. As a all-rounder though. Like Faheem outside Asia. Nawaz in Asia.

Feel like new chief selector reads [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] posts.
 
Bullet Drive said:
Nawaz is a very good option. As a all-rounder though. Like Faheem outside Asia. Nawaz in Asia.

Feel like new chief selector reads [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] posts.
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Exactly!

Zafar Gohar is a Second Spinner, similar to Abdur Rehman in that he can average 35 with the ball and 20 with the bat.

Mohammad Nawaz is not a specialist spinner: he is more like Mohammad Hafeez: he could average 40 with the ball and 35 with the bat.

I fear that Pakistan are going to approach this series as if it was in the UAE and be underpowered with quick bowlers.

In general, my model in Asia would be:

5. Mohammad Nawaz
6. Rohail Nazir (wk)
7. Shadab Khan
8. Amad Butt (for his extra pace over Faheem)
9. Sajid Khan
10. Hasan Ali
11. Shaheen Shah Afridi
 
Bewal Express said:
I have seen NA play and he is ok, action is a little too round arm but with all those years of experience, he knows his action and game. Sajid reminds me of desi taxi drivers playing Sunday parks league cricket
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I disagree. He has subtle variations which are not common for slow left arm spinners. He can disguise them with his stock balls quite well and has the disciple necessary for bowling at the test level.

Totally agree re: Sajid. I find his action particularly unimpressive.
 
I think people ought to reserve judgement until we see Nawaz play, because i'm not ruling out that we might see Nawaz 2.0 when he makes his comeback to the team. He's looking much more dangerous with both ball and bat and has taken on a real leadership role with his domestic side.

If nothing else it might be more about Shadab Khan vs Mohammad Nawaz in the LOI side.
 
Junaids said:
Exactly!

Zafar Gohar is a Second Spinner, similar to Abdur Rehman in that he can average 35 with the ball and 20 with the bat.

Mohammad Nawaz is not a specialist spinner: he is more like Mohammad Hafeez: he could average 40 with the ball and 35 with the bat.

I fear that Pakistan are going to approach this series as if it was in the UAE and be underpowered with quick bowlers.

In general, my model in Asia would be:

5. Mohammad Nawaz
6. Rohail Nazir (wk)
7. Shadab Khan
8. Amad Butt (for his extra pace over Faheem)
9. Sajid Khan
10. Hasan Ali
11. Shaheen Shah Afridi
Click to expand...

My dear friend, none of Shadab, Nawaz, and Sajid will take you a 5-fer. Sajid on a good day maybe. This XI would not do well at all.
 
Zafar by a country mile. Nawaz is not good enough. A medicore player.
 
Thunderbolt14 said:
My dear friend, none of Shadab, Nawaz, and Sajid will take you a 5-fer. Sajid on a good day maybe. This XI would not do well at all.
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Pakistan is not the UAE. Or even India

One frontline spinner, two part-time spinners and and three quicks seems ok to me.
 
Thunderbolt14 said:
My dear friend, none of Shadab, Nawaz, and Sajid will take you a 5-fer. Sajid on a good day maybe. This XI would not do well at all.
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With respect, I think a 5-fer is the wrong metric for a spinner.

An absolute frontline spinner will average 4 wickets per match in Asia and 3 in SENA.

I think Sajid can deliver that. Nauman could, but he can’t bat or field. Zafar probably isn’t a good enough bowler to be the Lead Spinner.

I only intend for Nawaz and Shadab to average 2 wickets each per match in Asia. Their job is to provide part-time variety while the lead spinner is an offie, and maybe to bowl longer spells on a wearing pitch on Day 5.
 
Junaids said:
Exactly!

Zafar Gohar is a Second Spinner, similar to Abdur Rehman in that he can average 35 with the ball and 20 with the bat.

Mohammad Nawaz is not a specialist spinner: he is more like Mohammad Hafeez: he could average 40 with the ball and 35 with the bat.

I fear that Pakistan are going to approach this series as if it was in the UAE and be underpowered with quick bowlers.

In general, my model in Asia would be:

5. Mohammad Nawaz
6. Rohail Nazir (wk)
7. Shadab Khan
8. Amad Butt (for his extra pace over Faheem)
9. Sajid Khan
10. Hasan Ali
11. Shaheen Shah Afridi
Click to expand...

Nawaz wont averge more then 25 with the bat and with the ball it wont be below 45. Why on earth would you have nawaz at 5. When you have so many better options then him. I would even take ifti over him.
 
Khan12 said:
Nawaz wont averge more then 25 with the bat and with the ball it wont be below 45. Why on earth would you have nawaz at 5. When you have so many better options then him. I would even take ifti over him.
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In Asia I like the idea of having all three of:

Off-spinner
Slow left-arm
Leg-spinner

The problem is, two of them need to be good fielders, one of whom can average 30 with the bat and the other 25.

Ashwin and Jadeja tick the batting box. Nauman and Yasir do not.
 
Junaids said:
In Asia I like the idea of having all three of:

Off-spinner
Slow left-arm
Leg-spinner

The problem is, two of them need to be good fielders, one of whom can average 30 with the bat and the other 25.

Ashwin and Jadeja tick the batting box. Nauman and Yasir do not.
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The only box which Nawaz ticks is being a garbage cricketer. Zafar is the better bowler and technically a better batsmen then him i wont have zafar at aboce 8. Here you want us to play nawaz at 5. Has nawaz hacked your account by any chance?
 
Khan12 said:
The only box which Nawaz ticks is being a garbage cricketer. Zafar is the better bowler and technically a better batsmen then him i wont have zafar at aboce 8. Here you want us to play nawaz at 5. Has nawaz hacked your account by any chance?
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The title of this thread is about which spinner can be an all-rounder for Pakistan.

I totally disagree with Misbah. For me, an all-rounder just has to be half a batsman and half a bowler!
 
Zafar is far better bower.

In batting Zafar has proved he was capable of scoring runs in trying condition and against world class bowling in NZL, Nawaz is only capable of scoring runs at domestic level.
 
moghul said:
Zafar is far better bower.

In batting Zafar has proved he was capable of scoring runs in trying condition and against world class bowling in NZL, Nawaz is only capable of scoring runs at domestic level.
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Can I remind you what happened when Nawaz played for the Pakistanis v Australia A at Cairns in 2016-17?

He took 0-20 and 3-31 and scored 4 and 36 not out.

Misbah scored 20 and 0. Babar scored 16 and 22.

That’s not a bad record. Nawaz might be a viable international cricketer - I’m not sure.
 
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Just for the record, I don’t think Nawaz and Gohar are the same type of First Class cricketer.

Nawaz can bat at 6, and is a Third Spinner.

In a 3 match series he should score 210 runs at 35 and take 6 wickets for 250, bowling 30 overs per Test.

Gohar can bat at 8, and is a Second Spinner. He should score 120 runs at 20 and take 9 wickets for 350, bowling 50 overs per Test.
 
Why do we need batting depth in Pakistan? All our batsmen love Pakistan conditions so there is no need for batting depth. People need to ignore [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] on this. Take 20 wickets first which we are struggling shambolicly to do so in recent times.

Hassn Ali is a good no 8
 
shah_1 said:
Why do we need batting depth in Pakistan? All our batsmen love Pakistan conditions so there is no need for batting depth. People need to ignore [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] on this. Take 20 wickets first which we are struggling shambolicly to do so in recent times.

Hassn Ali is a good no 8
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Very very few bowlers take more than an average of 4 wickets per game.

If you want to take 20 wickets, you need 5 or even 6 bowlers.

But if you have 5 or 6 bowlers, at least 2 of them need to be chosen as much (or more) for their batting as for their bowling.
 
Junaids said:
Very very few bowlers take more than an average of 4 wickets per game.

If you want to take 20 wickets, you need 5 or even 6 bowlers.

But if you have 5 or 6 bowlers, at least 2 of them need to be chosen as much (or more) for their batting as for their bowling.
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Faheem is ideal for low bounce pitches as he took 6 wickets in QEA final so him at 7 and Hasan Ali at 8 play two proper spinners and Shaheen Afridi.
 
shah_1 said:
Faheem is ideal for low bounce pitches as he took 6 wickets in QEA final so him at 7 and Hasan Ali at 8 play two proper spinners and Shaheen Afridi.
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I think Faheem is a bit high at 7. He is a square of the wicket batsman for SENA conditions.
 
Unless Zafar is given at least 3 - 4 Test Matches in Asia one cannot judge , its unfair to judge him with just one Test in NZ.
 
Junaids said:
The title of this thread is about which spinner can be an all-rounder for Pakistan.

I totally disagree with Misbah. For me, an all-rounder just has to be half a batsman and half a bowler!
Click to expand...

Well that would describe Nawaz down to a tee. No idea what he would be like in tests, but his bowling in the PSL was pretty awful after a promising start in the first ever series where the pitches were turning square.
 
If there's a binary choice I'd play Zafar.

Nawaz's bowling will not trouble many international batsmen unless on a square turner. He couldn't buy a wicket even in the UAE when he last played which was the disasterous 2018 Asia Cup !
 
Bewal Express said:
We all want a spinner that can bat, but first and foremost he has to hold his position in the team as a spinner, if its marginal you go for the better batsman but none of these guys are any good as spinners.
If you are asking me which of the Spinning bowling ARs i like, then an honest answer is none. Shadab is the best batsman out of these guys and will offer real depth at 7/8, but his Leg spinner has totally disappeared. Nawaz is a good batting 8, but he isnt a Test spinner, and like Zafar barely looks FC. Zafar himself looked decent at 8, but as i said, he doesnt look like a spinner that should be playing Fc never mind tests.
I will wait to see NA on the better cameras to make full judgement( he doesnt look terrible but his action is too round arm to get sharp spin) but from what i have seen of Sajid, he is awful. If i am wrong about him, then let there be egg on my face but nothing would me make happier because we would have a genuine spinner for PK.
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Why do you think Sajid is horrible? Is it the action, or is it something more technical?

I'm just curious because a lot of other people rate him very highly on this forum, so I just want to know if there's something that most people don't know.

We don't have a wicket-taking spinner who is a good batsman. If you want role-models of players to be looking for, someone like Jadeja should be your ideal find. Takes wickets and is reliable with the bat. Nawaz isn't even close to the level that Jadeja is at, and neither is Zafar. However, considering the age factor, I'd take Zafar because he at least has the time to improve, but at the moment, we're better off playing two specialist spinners, Sajid and Yasir for varying spin directions.
 
UzmanBeast said:
Why do you think Sajid is horrible? Is it the action, or is it something more technical?

I'm just curious because a lot of other people rate him very highly on this forum, so I just want to know if there's something that most people don't know.

We don't have a wicket-taking spinner who is a good batsman. If you want role-models of players to be looking for, someone like Jadeja should be your ideal find. Takes wickets and is reliable with the bat. Nawaz isn't even close to the level that Jadeja is at, and neither is Zafar. However, considering the age factor, I'd take Zafar because he at least has the time to improve, but at the moment, we're better off playing two specialist spinners, Sajid and Yasir for varying spin directions.
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Sajid has a horrible action, so horrible that it would shame the desi taxi drivers playing parks league on Sundays but that doesn't matter if its effective. From what I have seen he can't spin the off spinner unless he slows down as he bowls mostly undercutters. These give you a bit of drift into left handers and away from right handers but not sharp spin into right handers.
 
Bewal Express said:
Sajid has a horrible action, so horrible that it would shame the desi taxi drivers playing parks league on Sundays but that doesn't matter if its effective. From what I have seen he can't spin the off spinner unless he slows down as he bowls mostly undercutters. These give you a bit of drift into left handers and away from right handers but not sharp spin into right handers.
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The action seems slanted according to me, and the wrist position isn't ideal. What most coaches tell you is that you should release the ball with the seam pointing upwards but at an angle of 45 degrees to the right, so that it gets enough revolutions to actually spin. His wrist doesn't make that angle, which is why he bowls a lot of undercutters and arm balls.

However, could it be that he was just doing that in one innings? Or is it a consistent observation that he doesn't get a lot of spin off the pitch?

Statistically speaking, if this were the case, batsmen should have played him with relative ease, but he picked up a ton of wickets, leading me to suggest that even if this is the case, he has worked out how to get batsmen out regardless, which is a good trait to have.
 
UzmanBeast said:
The action seems slanted according to me, and the wrist position isn't ideal. What most coaches tell you is that you should release the ball with the seam pointing upwards but at an angle of 45 degrees to the right, so that it gets enough revolutions to actually spin. His wrist doesn't make that angle, which is why he bowls a lot of undercutters and arm balls.

However, could it be that he was just doing that in one innings? Or is it a consistent observation that he doesn't get a lot of spin off the pitch?

Statistically speaking, if this were the case, batsmen should have played him with relative ease, but he picked up a ton of wickets, leading me to suggest that even if this is the case, he has worked out how to get batsmen out regardless, which is a good trait to have.
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The standard of domestic batsman is pretty poor relative to what he will bowl to in international cricket. He may get a few wickets as they adjust to his action but it won't last.
 
Bewal Express said:
The standard of domestic batsman is pretty poor relative to what he will bowl to in international cricket. He may get a few wickets as they adjust to his action but it won't last.
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True, but that's when bowlers develop variations. He's pretty young if I'm not mistaken, so he can easily develop a different type of delivery to aid him.

I won't rule him out just yet.
 
UzmanBeast said:
True, but that's when bowlers develop variations. He's pretty young if I'm not mistaken, so he can easily develop a different type of delivery to aid him.

I won't rule him out just yet.
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The basics are not there. For s spinner its to spin the ball, but from what I have seen of him, he has no real spin into the batsman and that is a big problem for an off spinner
 
Bewal Express said:
The basics are not there. For s spinner its to spin the ball, but from what I have seen of him, he has no real spin into the batsman and that is a big problem for an off spinner
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True, but the thing is, some spinner develop a way to bowl even if they can't spin the ball sufficiently.

The great Anil Kumble wasn't a square turner of the ball, but his greatest weapons were his lethal accuracy, drift, and flight.

I won't rule him out yet without seeing how he handles the pressure of bowling to international quality batsmen. But he's not a technically correct off-spinner as per your analysis, so I'll keep that in mind when watching the series.

It's too early for me to make a judgement on him.
 
UzmanBeast said:
True, but the thing is, some spinner develop a way to bowl even if they can't spin the ball sufficiently.

The great Anil Kumble wasn't a square turner of the ball, but his greatest weapons were his lethal accuracy, drift, and flight.

I won't rule him out yet without seeing how he handles the pressure of bowling to international quality batsmen. But he's not a technically correct off-spinner as per your analysis, so I'll keep that in mind when watching the series.

It's too early for me to make a judgement on him.
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Yup I'm quiet on him as he has performed in domestic cricket but Zafar had an average of 36 with the bowl in 2019 season, don't know what great things people are expecting from him.
 
shah_1 said:
Yup I'm quiet on him as he has performed in domestic cricket but Zafar had an average of 36 with the bowl in 2019 season, don't know what great things people are expecting from him.
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Yeah, that's also something to note.
 
i am okay with nawaz in the squad as a batting all rounder and an excellent fielder.he should bat at 7 if hes going to be in the starting xi.
 
Justcrazy said:
Saeed Anwar got a pair on debut , so he should have never played again.
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So you are comparing a batsman who may only face a ball with a bowler who gets lots of overs. Maybe a slight understanding of the role of batsman and bowlers but never mind. Interesting
 
Bewal Express said:
So you are comparing a batsman who may only face a ball with a bowler who gets lots of overs. Maybe a slight understanding of the role of batsman and bowlers but never mind. Interesting
Click to expand...

Stuart Broad averaged 40 in his first 20 Tests. Agay batao.
 
shamaan said:
i am okay with nawaz in the squad as a batting all rounder and an excellent fielder.he should bat at 7 if hes going to be in the starting xi.
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If i'll be honest i don't see Nawaz doing anything special with the ball even though he did ok with the ball this season, but i'd rely more on his batting than bowling.

Zafar has been done unfair but i reckon Zimbabwae conditions will be a good chance for him to thrive and he shouldn't be disheartened.
 
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