Zaid Hamid humiliated on TV

[Invictus]

I think it was a valid point.

IMO, especially when it comes to discussing problems relating to societal values/trends in Pakistan, etc, for instance, I think it makes sense that the person projecting those views should have at least lived in Pakistan for the majority of their life.

It's quite simple. Once you are a citizen of a particular country and have lived there for quite a long time, you would be more apt in having a say in the country's matters (as a general rule). 'Apt' being the keyword here.

I will give velu's example here. He is what, living in South Korea at the moment and will be staying there for a couple of months/years due to his job requirement. While he may get a brief perspective about the country, it is completely different than say, being born in South Korea and growing up there, or living in South Korea for several years, and thereby experiencing what normal citizens have gone through... and how their lives have been shaped over the years to provide them with their current sense of perspective regarding South Korea. Citizens will have differing perspectives, many may agree on a particular viewpoint...but it is not so much about 'which perspective is right', but the fact that their views will have been shaped by their prolonged experiences in the country, over several consecutive years. As such, their viewpoint will likely be more..'apt'...even if one doesn't completely agree with it (i.e there's some truth to it).

Not sure how to really best express it, but yeah, especially when it comes to a country like Pakistan..I think it's more pertinent that you have actually lived there for quite some time. That doesn't mean your opinion doesn't matter or you don't love the country your parents were born in...ugh, hope you get what I am trying to say here.

Anyways, not surprised that people who actually live in Pakistan have differing views than what most others have about the country...

I realize that probably 90% of the posters here fall into that category of 'I have never really lived in Pakistan apart from visiting for a couple of months from time to time/every year' or 'I am Indian/Bangladeshi/British/_________ but visited Pakistan once', etc, so I hope this post isn't perceived as something demeaning or something like..'your views don't matter' because that's not what I was getting at!

That was quite "apt". The bolded part is what I have realized too. There is Pakistan and then there is people's perception of Pakistan. People who have not LIVED in Pakistan do not know Pakistan like it exists today.
They have this perception some of which is based on their own memories, some of it is what they want it to be and some of it is just fairy tales they pick on from the their favorite writer (by favorite writer I mean someone who says exactly what they think just more eloquently) on the web.
Its a weird phenomena that I have come in contact with on this forum. Never saw it before. People so passionate and have such strong convictions about something that they don't even know personally.

 

[akheR]

Jinnah sahab a British agent... never heard of that before *ironical cough*

Well, he was accused of being a 'Hindu agent' by Maulana Hasrat Mohani here, so if he was 'British agent' there, it makes sense, I guess great men just need more than one epithet and a bit of controversy.

 

[violet_may]

Muslim women wearing a sari or bindi is not something rare/completely unheard of in Pakistan, especially at weddings....

Tends to be the case with the Bihari community at least from what I have seen, or the elder generation who travelled over from India quite a while back...

Not really fashionable these days though, because of other clothing styles being more 'in'

Sari is such an 'Aunty'/'I am married so I can wear a sari' type attire anyways, most young people don't wear it for that reason!

 

[KingKhanWC]

Muslim women wearing a sari or bindi is not something rare/completely unheard of in Pakistan, especially at weddings....

So? Some wear skirts or low cut tops too.

When you dress like a Hindu and then come on Pakistan t.v arguing the two nation theory was wrong basically saying Pakistan shouldn't have been created it looks very much like a Pro-Indian stance and anti-Pakistani which she is.

btw In Islam you are not supposed to imitate the idol worshippers in their dress. Please go ahead and argue this Islamic viewpoint, if you can.

 

[Iffitheking]

So? Some wear skirts or low cut tops too.

When you dress like a Hindu and then come on Pakistan t.v arguing the two nation theory was wrong basically saying Pakistan shouldn't have been created it looks very much like a Pro-Indian stance and anti-Pakistani which she is.

btw In Islam you are not supposed to imitate the idol worshippers in their dress. Please go ahead and argue this Islamic viewpoint, if you can.

this is sooo stupid Argument of yours... why the hell you wear Jeans, pants and shirts and ties and shorts and underwear and everything they are created by Chirstians and Jews so Basically the Islam you obey (I am muslim Alhumdulilah and no where in books it is mention to do not wear anything which resemble any thing worn by non muslim) is telling you not to wear Idol worshipers then stop wearing all these things I have mentioned... get a life man

I am Paksitani and I strongly believe that "Two Nation Theory" was flawed because being a Islam is not for 1 nationality it is for whole world... so I can be Argentino and Muslim, I can Australian and Muslim, I can be Indian and Muslim, my Nationality is Argentino, Australian, and Indian but my religion is Islam, so why the hell Jinnah decided to creat a different country on the basis of two Nation theory... when in reality our nationality were Indian and our religion was Islam.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Jeans and shirts are not signs/labels of a religion. Bindi is a Hindu sign/label. Simple really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bindi_(decoration)

You don't believe in the creation of Pakistan, good for you.

 

[zzebie]

Don't intend to derail the thread but idols were introduced at a very later point. If one actually sees the Vedas(scriptures) as such, both forms of worship 'sakar' and 'nirakaar' were present. It's just that one form of worship gained and maintained precedence among the common people. Maybe someone who knows Sanatan dharma more can elaborate.

Also, i am not sure, if a muslim wears a dress worn by Hindus like a sari, or eats something that a Hindu eats etc, would necessarily make them a non muslim.

 

[cricketjoshila]

So if Saari is a Hindu dress.What is a Muslim dress?

 

[KingKhanWC]

What KKWC was saying was that a Hindu giving advice on Pakistan holds the same merit as an Iranian giving advice on Israel, and you went and labelled KKWC a Hindu Hater – grow up.

Exactly. thanks NH.

For the record I don't agree with Hinduism but have no hate towards the average Hindu. I do have a dislike for Hindutva ideology as I do with Zionism and Far right Hitler type facsicm as every sane human being should have imo.

 

[Stewie]

It is amazing how some of the posters here are subscribing to the ridiculous idea that Quaid-e-Azam was a British agent. What in the world is wrong with our young Pakistanis?

What did he have to gain out of serving the British? Did he die with a lot of money and property? How long did he live after the creation of Pakistan? Why did he work so tirelessly for the country knowing fully well how sick he was? Would he have done it if he was a British Agent? My guess is, he would have quit and moved to London for the British doctors to cure him.

Would he have done it all (estranged daughter and all) for the British?


Now coming back to some of the other points. The writer in Carbon11'S posts has gone out of his way to try and prove that West Pakistan is nothing but barren land and a pile of rocks.

Let me remind you, that land holds a very very strategic, geogrpahical position. We are right at the junction of MiddleEast and East Asia.

Let me remind you why the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. THEY WANTED TO REACH HOT WATER and their eventual target was Pakistan.

I am sorry but I dont subscribe to this steaming pile of BS.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Stewie in your view do you think this view of Jinnah is a common one amongst Pakistani's? First time I have come across it on here and shocked there are a number of posters who subscribe to this.

 

[zzebie]

Namak, i have no interest in this muslim vs Hindu debate. But would like to add to this sari and Hinduism discussion.
Saris have been worn by women in the Indian subcontinent by the ladies since a long time. Worn in different styles in different parts of the subcontinent. But in the northern parts of India, ladies primary wear the salwar kameez. In the south its saris. In many parts of India, you will find Muslim and Christian women wearing saris as well.Also, in Sri Lanka many women wear Saris(not necessarily Hindus only).I am assuming it's the same in Bangladesh.

 

[akheR]

I am Paksitani and I strongly believe that "Two Nation Theory" was flawed because being a Islam is not for 1 nationality it is for whole world... so I can be Argentino and Muslim, I can Australian and Muslim, I can be Indian and Muslim, my Nationality is Argentino, Australian, and Indian but my religion is Islam, so why the hell Jinnah decided to creat a different country on the basis of two Nation theory... when in reality our nationality were Indian and our religion was Islam.

You just missed out what 'Two Nation Theory' stood for : not nationality = religion, but in a strictly SC context, the Muslims of NW British India were too different from the rest of the British India to form a Nation-state.

Our 'nationality' has never been Indian. Yours, perhaps, if you were born in the Republic of India, after 1947, because India wasn't a 'nation' to begin with, but not the towering majority of the Pakistanis.

It is amazing how some of the posters here are subscribing to the ridiculous idea that Quaid-e-Azam was a British agent. What in the world is wrong with our young Pakistanis?

Disgusting, first time I read that from Pakistanis - generally, that's your Indian POV, and guys like Jaswant Singh gets expelled from BJP because they think differently - I'd hope that they're a minority though, nothing more pitiful than a self-slapping bunch begging for identity.

 

[Invictus]

It’s called psychology and character analysis.

You are simply expanding on my view and endorsing it.

For me to determine the very attributes you have pointed out I must be observant. This is a fact which you cannot deny but accept.

Just because I am observant doesn’t mean I am prejudice (which is what you believe) - This was my point.

God gave my eyes so I could observe the world and apply the knowledge gained from them - it's called intelligence , not prejudice.

Jahab your "intelligence" is making you make false inferences. Again because you are taking a very small sample of data and trying to make very concrete opinions.
My grand mother wore a Sari all her life. Bangalis women wear sari. Sari is a cultural dress. I see women wearing Sari's in Karachi all the time. Hell there are hindus, the horror, living in Pakistan today, some of them wear sari's some dont. So if you saw my grandmother and decided she was Hindu your "intelligence" would have led you to wrong conclusions. Not really intelligent is it ?
And to further elaborate it has nothing to do with psychology. Neither looking at someone and paying attention to details as in how they talk, walk and act enough to do a character analysis on the spot. You have to spend time observing behavior to do a valid analysis.
I am not arguing about how observant you are, you could be the most observant person alive. The whole point was that you cannot judge a person based on a look of a video. She might as well be blonde with blue eyes wearing a tiara it does not make her views irrelevant. The view have to be judged on its own merit not on who is the one communicating them.
People make judgements all the time. People observe and make conclusions all the time. That is not intelligence. Intelligence is to come up with valid and true results based on data. Wisdom is to know when data is enough to form an opinion and when data is inconclusive. There is a world of difference between the three.

 

[Stewie]

Stewie in your view do you think this view of Jinnah is a common one amongst Pakistani's? First time I have come across it on here and shocked there are a number of posters who subscribe to this.

Jiannah was a controversial personality because of some of the tough decisions he made. You have to realize that we were in a situation where we were the the ones losing most at the end (by end I mean by the time the British left the Sub continent after WW2)

The religious right did not believe in having a separate state for Muslims because htey believed they could restore the glory days of Muslim Rule in India and they accused him of being a British Spy ala Carbon11's posts about how he divided the strength of the SC Muslims.

Then there were others who simply feared him for his political clout and opposed him for one reason or another.

Till this day the religious fundamentalist right in Pakistan do not hold him in high esteem. Sure he was not mulla, he did not have a beard and his vision of Pakistan was not of a theocratic Islamic state but one where majority were Muslims but everydenomination could live with equal religious rights. That was something he believed Muslims wont be able to do in a majority Hindu dominated India.

His whole political career can be looked at from that point of view and you can see a visible evolution of his political agendas and ambitions. They always revolved around one particular goal and that was finding a better life for the Muslims of the SC.

Anybody who has ready history books, the Independence movement, his 14 points, him joining the Muslim League, etc can easily tell the truth behind Jinnah.


Please dont let the detractors tell you otherwise. They are nothing but people who refuse to accept the reality of Pakistan and want to prove that its formation, its current governance and policies are built upon hollow roots.

We do have the separatist element in Pakistan. We have MQM, we have the Baloch issue, we have the NWFP tribal area issue and yes there are disgruntled people but they use bashing Pakistan and Jinnah as a spring board to reach their own goals and agenda.


Its means to an end for them. I have to say there is no truth to this fiction at all.

 

[violet_may]

Nah, not many wear mini-skirts or skimpy attires as compared to saris and stuff.

Hmm, my point wasn't to argue what/who one can imitate in terms of clothing according to beliefs about Islam and whether it is wrong...

So many people wear saris in Pakistan (like in many communities in Karachi), no one thinks of them as dressing as 'Hindus' at least while we live in Pakistan.

Clothes vary depending on which region you are from in Pakistan, doesn't always mean you are anti-Pakistan.

 

[violet_may]

Namak, i have no interest in this muslim vs Hindu debate. But would like to add to this sari and Hinduism discussion.
Saris have been worn by women in the Indian subcontinent by the ladies since a long time. Worn in different styles in different parts of the subcontinent. But in the northern parts of India, ladies primary wear the salwar kameez. In the south its saris. In many parts of India, you will find Muslim and Christian women wearing saris as well.Also, in Sri Lanka many women wear Saris(not necessarily Hindus only).I am assuming it's the same in Bangladesh.

Agreed!

My (very religious ) grandma dresses like a 'Hindu' according to some people then (aka sari)... I asked her once (my grandma), she said she could never take a liking to shalwar kameez (which is what I prefer) because it is too uncomfortable for her and that's how she has been dressing for 90 years of her life, when living in India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, and now Canada.

Now I don't like saris or could ever imagine wearing it as it seems quite confusing, but me dressing like a proper Muslim (I think) does not say a whole lot about my beliefs and actions in life...

Don't judge a book by it's cover, that was all. It may be fitting in some circumstances, but will most likely not hold true in general.

 

[Stewie]

You just missed out what 'Two Nation Theory' stood for : not nationality = religion, but in a strictly SC context, the Muslims of NW British India were too different from the rest of the British India to form a Nation-state.

Our 'nationality' has never been Indian. Yours, perhaps, if you were born in the Republic of India, after 1947, because India wasn't a 'nation' to begin with, but not the towering majority of the Pakistanis.



Disgusting, first time I read that from Pakistanis - generally, that's your Indian POV, and guys like Jaswant Singh gets expelled from BJP because they think differently - I'd hope that they're a minority though, nothing more pitiful than a self-slapping bunch begging for identity.

It happens and while people in Pakistan who dont hold QA in high esteem have their own views, some Pakistanis living abroad and their younger generation simply have a distorted view on things influenced a lot by talking to people who sell that stuff to them.

We have to bear in mind while we are struggling as a nation, our plight would have been much worse had partition never happened.

One does not need to look too far to understand this. Muslims are an oppressed minority in India. There are a few who have done well for themselves but mostly they are living a life in squalor.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

Jahab your "intelligence" is making you make false inferences.

Sir jee, no.

My observation of Einstein and my conclusion is false?

Paying attention to how one acts when a blower must determine what a batsman will do next is false?

Observing behavioural traits to determine a mind-set is false?

The only element that is false is you making the inference by suggesting I am applying prejudice.

The whole point was that you cannot judge a person based on a look of a video.

Where did I say you can judge a person just by being observant? My comment was by observing how one acts, how one dresses, how one speaks, gives you a good indication of a personality - a euphuism for - "one can tell ‘a lot’ about a person by the way they speak, dress, act, and look". (Post 318)

For me to judge someone I first need to know everything about that person, which is not what I suggested at all.

And mate, it is psychology. Anything related to the mindset is psychology, which is derived from how one acts, speaks, and dresses. How do you think Psychologists work then? Do they not hear what a patient says and then deliver their diagnosis? Do Psychologists pay attention to how their patient acts? Or is it pie in the sky spin the bottle for an answer?

Heck do you think Psychologists are judgemental? They get paid for it!

 

[violet_may]

)

Wah ji, wah! That 'jo na kattay arrie se' line never gets old.

I have lived all over Karachi as well, but never Clifton area (except when visiting cousins). You must be rich

 

[Namak_Halaal]

My response was to KKWC where he was criticizing the lady for dressing like a hindu.


How does dressing like hindu matter ? So if she was wearing a Salwar then her believe will be different?

KKWC has proved himself a hindu hater and I have not created this opinion on one post.

Now do you agree that a person is wrong just because he/she is dressed like hindu ?

Are you reading my posts?

It's about context. Being a Hindu and commenting on Pakistan matters. You post on PP day in day out defending India from Pakistani Muslims do you not? Is that because you value the opinion of Pakistani Muslims when it comes to India or because our ideologies oppose each other? Think long and hard.

Fine, you obviously are arguing for the sake of it and ignoring the point of context. This means when an Iranian dressed in his/her national dress is advising Jews on Israel; you will find merit in his/her views. Plenty of videos around if your are worth your salt.

PS: KKWC has proved himself to be a Hindu hater? Are you not being judgemental now?

 

[Garuda]

Are you reading my posts?

It's about context. Being a Hindu and commenting on Pakistan matters. You post on PP day in day out defending India from Pakistani Muslims do you not? Is that because you value the opinion of Pakistani Muslims when it comes to India or because our ideologies oppose each other? Think long and hard.

So a hindu in Pakistan can not comment on his own country ?? WoW.

Fine, you obviously are arguing for the sake of it and ignoring the point of context. This means when an Iranian dressed in his/her national dress is advising Jews on Israel; you will find merit in his/her views. Plenty of videos around if your are worth your salt.

We all dresss western clothes and every Pakistani wearing jeans are western sympathizers.

PS: KKWC has proved himself to be a Hindu hater? Are you not being judgemental now?

Atleast I am reading his posts and this is a good data to judge someone's ideology than judging on basis of what he is wearing.

 

[Invictus]

Sir jee, no.

My observation of Einstein and my conclusion is false?

Paying attention to how one acts when a blower must determine what a batsman will do next is false?

Observing behavioural traits to determine a mind-set is false?

The only element that is false is you making the inference by suggesting I am applying prejudice.

Janab lets revisit how this whole conversation started because we are going in circles. KKWC made a comment about the view of this women being irrelevant because she was dressed as a Hindu. To which you jumped in and said something along the lines of you can make a judgement on a person based on how they dress, talk and act ?
Or am I missing something here ?
Because the examples you site in order for them to be true the "observer" has to observe for a period of time to make those conclusions. You are endorsing a conclusion made on a single view of a video. And on what a woman is wearing. You cant possibly be implying that its the same thing ?
You cant judge a batsman's quality just by looking at his face. Neither you can ***** his quality by looking at some other batsman. You have to watch him bat, hence the time reference I keep on making.

Where did I say you can judge a person just by being observant? My comment was by observing how one acts, how one dresses, how one speaks, gives you a good indication of a personality - a euphuism for - "one can tell ‘a lot’ about a person by the way they speak, dress, act, and look". (Post 318)

Okay but you do realize that in most instances it is simply not conclusive enough right. I talk, dress and eat differently at work compared to with friends and again with family.
Same guy 24 hours three different modes. So you cant "tell" by observing me for a day or looking at a picture of me. Unless you spend the time to observe for an extended amount of time. This is the part you don't get. The time needed to accumulate data is of paramount importance. A glance, a video, 5 minutes one post or even 100 on a forum are not enough. More often then not you this will lead you to form incorrect opinions.

For me to judge someone I first need to know everything about that person, which is not what I suggested at all.

Sweet

And mate, it is psychology. Anything related to the mindset is psychology, which is derived from how one acts, speaks, and dresses..

You are mixing psychology and sociology. You can argue they are related but its not the same. Psychology studies the mind sociology deals with behavior. Behavior is heavily influenced by the mind but there are other factors involved. That's like saying figure spin and wrist spin is the same thing its all spin.
Way too simplistic.

How do you think Psychologists work then? Do they not hear what a patient says and then deliver their diagnosis? Do Psychologists pay attention to how their patient acts? Or is it pie in the sky spin the bottle for an answer?

Umm over a period of time bro. And there are different types.
The whole sit on the couch and talk gig is more Psychotherapy and designed around helping you get over your issues.
They don't look at you once and "decide". Most of this research work is usually decided around the idea of "why" and takes years and years of research work and data accumulation.

Heck do you think Psychologists are judgemental? They get paid for it!

First of all I don't secondly just because you get paid for something does not make it right, just saying.

 

[violet_may]

Observing behavioural traits to determine a mind-set is false?

Most likely, you can utilize modern approaches to attempt to answer questions about the mind and behavior in that manner on just one subject, but even then, it will be correlational at best. Very hard to create true experiments when observing human subjects, mostly because we can't manipulate the variable 'human' as it is considered unethical in the research world..

Psychology is not a real science NH (if you are a psych major then I apologize..but it's true), although there is now a movement to change this by incorporating research techniques (and wording theories) as used in other science domains.. So yes, based on most static old theories in psychology, you can't make any conclusive remarks. Only neuropsychology and interdisciplinary approaches might have the most merit in modern days. Off topic, but yeah...if we are going by psychological discipline, then the most common theory is that people use age, sex, and race as the primary cues for 'figuring out' a person (i.e mental heuristic). If anything, I wouldn't rely on just one school of psychological thought, as there are quite a few important branches that often contradict (more like hate) each other...

 

[Namak_Halaal]

Janab lets revisit how this whole conversation started because we are going in circles. KKWC made a comment about the view of this women being irrelevant because she was dressed as a Hindu. To which you jumped in and said something along the lines of you can make a judgement on a person based on how they dress, talk and act ?

No, I said you can tell a lot about a person based on how they dress, talk and act, not judge a person.

Because the examples you site in order for them to be true the "observer" has to observe for a period of time to make those conclusions. You are endorsing a conclusion made on a single view of a video. And on what a woman is wearing. You cant possibly be implying that its the same thing ?

You cant judge a batsman's quality just by looking at his face. Neither you can ***** his quality by looking at some other batsman. You have to watch him bat, hence the time reference I keep on making.

No, I didn’t say you could judge a quality of a batsman, I said you could determine his next move through observation.

If you are going to change words then this discussion is fruitless.

Okay but you do realize that in most instances it is simply not conclusive enough right. I talk, dress and eat differently at work compared to with friends and again with family.
Same guy 24 hours three different modes. So you cant "tell" by observing me for a day or looking at a picture of me. Unless you spend the time to observe for an extended amount of time. This is the part you don't get. The time needed to accumulate data is of paramount importance. A glance, a video, 5 minutes one post or even 100 on a forum are not enough. More often then not you this will lead you to form incorrect opinions.

I do get it. Remember when I said for me to judge a person I would need to know everything about that person? Now remember when I said I can get a good ‘indication’ of a personality through observation. The two are not the same, but you are attempting to equate the two!

You are mixing psychology and sociology. You can argue they are related but its not the same. Psychology studies the mind sociology deals with behavior. Behavior is heavily influenced by the mind but there are other factors involved. T

How is that any different to what I was saying where one can determine a mind-set through observation of how one acts, speaks, etc (behaviour) because behaviour is indicative of choice, and choice is indicative of mindest?

How does one determine behaviour without observation?

That's like saying figure spin and wrist spin is the same thing its all spin.
Way too simplistic.

But it's still spin. I'm a simplistic kind of guy, this is how I view the world.

Umm over a period of time bro. And there are different types.
The whole sit on the couch and talk gig is more Psychotherapy and designed around helping you get over your issues.

Yes, by observing the way you act, speak etc.

They don't look at you once and "decide". Most of this research work is usually decided around the idea of "why" and takes years and years of research work and data accumulation.

Who said they did? You are confusing judgement with indication. I was merely pointing out one can determine information through observation – time is irrelevant in your point above.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

Most likely, you can utilize modern approaches to attempt to answer questions about the mind and behavior in that manner on just one subject, but even then, it will be correlational at best. Very hard to create true experiments when observing human subjects, mostly because we can't manipulate the variable 'human' as it is considered unethical in the research world..

Psychology is not a real science NH (if you are a psych major then I apologize..but it's true), although there is now a movement to change this by incorporating research techniques (and wording theories) as used in other science domains.. So yes, based on most static old theories in psychology, you can't make any conclusive remarks. Only neuropsychology and interdisciplinary approaches might have the most merit in modern days. Off topic, but yeah...if we are going by psychological discipline, then the most common theory is that people use age, sex, and race as the primary cues for 'figuring out' a person (i.e mental heuristic). If anything, I wouldn't rely on just one school of psychological thought, as there are quite a few important branches that often contradict (more like hate) each other...

I will be the first to tell you Psychology is not a real science. It isn't materialistic (based on matter).

Anyway, the ultimate point of my point is this - it is better to remain silent that to remove all doubt - silence is Gold, why? Because you can tell a lot about a person when they speak.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Jiannah was a controversial personality because of some of the tough decisions he made. You have to realize that we were in a situation where we were the the ones losing most at the end (by end I mean by the time the British left the Sub continent after WW2)

The religious right did not believe in having a separate state for Muslims because htey believed they could restore the glory days of Muslim Rule in India and they accused him of being a British Spy ala Carbon11's posts about how he divided the strength of the SC Muslims.

Then there were others who simply feared him for his political clout and opposed him for one reason or another.

Till this day the religious fundamentalist right in Pakistan do not hold him in high esteem. Sure he was not mulla, he did not have a beard and his vision of Pakistan was not of a theocratic Islamic state but one where majority were Muslims but everydenomination could live with equal religious rights. That was something he believed Muslims wont be able to do in a majority Hindu dominated India.

His whole political career can be looked at from that point of view and you can see a visible evolution of his political agendas and ambitions. They always revolved around one particular goal and that was finding a better life for the Muslims of the SC.

Anybody who has ready history books, the Independence movement, his 14 points, him joining the Muslim League, etc can easily tell the truth behind Jinnah.


Please dont let the detractors tell you otherwise. They are nothing but people who refuse to accept the reality of Pakistan and want to prove that its formation, its current governance and policies are built upon hollow roots.

We do have the separatist element in Pakistan. We have MQM, we have the Baloch issue, we have the NWFP tribal area issue and yes there are disgruntled people but they use bashing Pakistan and Jinnah as a spring board to reach their own goals and agenda.


Its means to an end for them. I have to say there is no truth to this fiction at all.

Great post, Stewie.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Nah, not many wear mini-skirts or skimpy attires as compared to saris and stuff.

I'm talking about Muslim women around the world. I would suggest more wear skimpy attires than Sari's and Bindi's.

Hmm, my point wasn't to argue what/who one can imitate in terms of clothing according to beliefs about Islam and whether it is wrong...

So many people wear saris in Pakistan (like in many communities in Karachi), no one thinks of them as dressing as 'Hindus' at least while we live in Pakistan.

Clothes vary depending on which region you are from in Pakistan, doesn't always mean you are anti-Pakistan.

You miss the obvious point. This woman is anti-Pakistani, she herself has stated this many times including this show by questioning the very creation of Pakistan.

I don't about you but most people I know would assume any woman wearing a sari and bindi is likely to be Indian rather than Pakistani. This is not the Pakistani national dress for a woman, it's the salwar kameez.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

So a hindu in Pakistan can not comment on his own country ?? WoW.

Shifting the goal poasts again.

Make your mind up. Post your points once and stick to them.

We all dresss western clothes and every Pakistani wearing jeans are western sympathizers.

Doh! This is why if I wear western clothes one would have a hard time figuring out my roots and culture, but a Sari is a dead cert. National dress is key.

Atleast I am reading his posts and this is a good data to judge someone's ideology than judging on basis of what he is wearing.

And observing a national dress is not good data?

The irony. Invictus is discussing how one should not judge a person through sheer observation yet here you are the falsifier.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

I don't about you but most people I know would assume any woman wearing a sari and bindi is likely to be Indian rather than Pakistani.

Bro please do not use your intelligence. Let's follow the guided path of Garuda. Appearance has no value or relevance, which is why from now on I will assume any woman wearing a sari and a bindi of brown skin is a Catholic practising Sikhism born and bred in Argentina with Viking heritage.

 

[Garuda]

Shifting the goal poasts again.

Make your mind up. Post your points once and stick to them.

This is what you said "Being a Hindu and commenting on Pakistan matters."

Why? Why can't a hindu comment on Pakistan?

You have to make your mind up. Look at your post. I exactly made it bold for you.

Doh! This is why if I wear western clothes one would have a hard time figuring out my roots and culture, but a Sari is a dead cert. National dress is key.

KKWC was not saying roots and culture. He said she doesn't agree to two nation thoery and wears like a hindu.

Where is root and culture. She is Pakistani. How does it matter what she wears?

So anyone in Pakistan wear jeans do not support two nation theory?

now you make up your mind.

And observing a national dress is not good data?

Where did I say it is not good? You can.

But saying any Pakistani wearing saree doesn't agree with Pakistan is wrong.

The irony. Invictus is discussing how one should not judge a person through sheer observation yet here you are the falsifier.

I donno about others but what I am saying is you should not judge (behavior or ideology) from someone's dress. As dress can be cultural or choice of fashion these days.

Saying that she doesn't believe in Pakistan ideology cuz she is wearing a saree is just idiotic.

 

[violet_may]

I'm talking about Muslim women around the world. I would suggest more wear skimpy attires than Sari's and Bindi's.

Hmm, okay. But I was talking about Pakistan...not sure about Muslim women around the world, don't have enough life experience.

You miss the obvious point. This woman is anti-Pakistani, she herself has stated this many times including this show by questioning the very creation of Pakistan.

I don't about you but most people I know would assume any woman wearing a sari and bindi is likely to be Indian rather than Pakistani. This is not the Pakistani national dress for a woman, it's the salwar kameez.

I don't know too much about this woman. It may be she is anti-Pakistani but I think your point would've been better had you not mentioned her attire (which I still think is irrelevant). Now, this thread has become about her clothes rather than what she is saying.

Yeah, if I saw a person wearing a sari & a bindi outside of Pakistan, as well as considering their facial features, etc, I would think the same that they are Sri Lankan or Indian.

But I thought you said she is dressing like a Hindu and not Indian (which I agree that most Indians dress by wearing a sari, etc) ...hence my disagreement that a lot of Pakistani Muslims wear saris there still. Back in 90s people used to wear bindis as well, but it faded out. Some elderly people wear saris on a daily basis, but most others buy the nice looking ones and tend to wear it for fancy events only, especially aunties.

Not so much nowadays in Pakistan though because other styles became more prevalent over time...

 

[Garuda]

Bro please do not use your intelligence. Let's follow the guided path of Garuda. Appearance has no value or relevance, which is why from now on I will assume any woman wearing a sari and a bindi of brown skin is a Catholic practising Sikhism born and bred in Argentina with Viking heritage.

ha ha.

Now answer my questions in #373

You can assume where she is from or which culture she is from.

But will you decide that she is againt Pakistan just cuz she is wearing a saree ?

How are both same thing?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Hmm, okay. But I was talking about Pakistan...not sure about Muslim women around the world, don't have enough life experience.

One day you might leave the badlands of Canada. Have a guess at least.

I don't know too much about this woman. It may be she is anti-Pakistani but I think your point would've been better had you not mentioned her attire (which I still think is irrelevant). Now, this thread has become about her clothes rather than what she is saying.

Yeah, if I saw a person wearing a sari & a bindi outside of Pakistan, as well as considering their facial features, etc, I would think the same that they are Sri Lankan or Indian.

But I thought you said she is dressing like a Hindu and not Indian (which I agree that most Indians dress by wearing a sari, etc) ...hence my disagreement that a lot of Pakistani Muslims wear saris there still. Back in 90s people used to wear bindis as well, but it faded out. Some elderly people wear saris on a daily basis, but most others buy the nice looking ones and tend to wear it for fancy events only, especially aunties.

Not so much nowadays in Pakistan though because other styles became more prevalent over time...

I think you should first get to know who this woman is and what she stands for, it will clear things up for you.

I 'm saying anyone dressed like a Hindu would lead to others in assuming she is from India. My point goes hand in hand with her dress sense and also her views. It would be different if someone was known to be very pro-Pakistani and dressed in the Pakistani tradtional clothing(which is not sari and bindi) and then spoke of issues such against the two-state theory.

Her intentions and mindset are clear when you link her words with her attire. It's a like a Muslim woman in a min-skirt calling for ban on the hijab but also saying she is a proud Muslim.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

ha ha.

Now answer my questions in #373

You can assume where she is from or which culture she is from.

But will you decide that she is againt Pakistan just cuz she is wearing a saree ?

How are both same thing?

'Observe' post 361.

Furthermore, Pakistan has its own identity. Sari isn’t one of them. Yes Pakistais do wear Saris, in the same way they wear Western clothes in the same way Westerners wears Eastern clothes, but a national dress is akin to a uniform. it represents your identity.

 

[Lalafied]

truth is always stranger then fiction...just look at the State of Pakistan today, it's on the verge of collapse with slave leaders doing the bidding of their Colonial masters to this day.

fair enough we cannot go back in time & change the events leading up to partition, but now that we do have Pakistan, it's high time we let Islam be the guiding light for the troubled nation...the only way Pakistan can become a superpower & unite rest of the Ummah is by establishing Khilafah Rashidah, there is no other way.

No to Demo-crazy, No to Dictatorship or any other man made political ideology!

 

[Garuda]

'Observe' post 361.

Furthermore, Pakistan has its own identity. Sari isn’t one of them. Yes Pakistais do wear Saris, in the same way they wear Western clothes in the same way Westerners wears Eastern clothes, but a national dress is akin to a uniform. it represents your identity.

You have been skipping the real question.

Does wearing a Saree means she doesn't believe in Pakistan ? Answer this first.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

You have been skipping the real question.

Does wearing a Saree means she doesn't believe in Pakistan ? Answer this first.

You’ve been skipping my answers and shifting the goalpost.

Now I’ll spoon-feed you the final answer cos you obviously haven’t figured it out. Ask yourself why she is opposing a two nation state, one of them being the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, where she is currently residing. If she loved Pakistan, if she felt Pakistan was her identiy, she wouldn’t oppose the creation of Pakistan let alone live in Pakistan while wearing a Sari; she'd be wearing Pakistan's national dress.

Penny dropped yet?

 

[the Great Khan]

sorry did I hear that Jinnah british agent theory again? plenty of gujrati muslims seem to have the same idea too..a mythical belief that the Muslims would have ruled India. So pray tell why did the Muslims not rule India in the 1939 election? because that was their best chance right? or was that because Jinnah rigged the election? and why arent they ruling India now as they have 180 million of them as we are always reminded by our parosee's?

Hindsight is an amazing thing. Can you tell me the social and political situation of the Muslims after 1847? we were reduced to an underclass overnight. For your kind information Muslim power was shattered by the British well and truly in 1847 , some would argue way before that in the battle of Plassey.

The Muslims would never have ruled India after 1847.

Say what you want about Jinnah but in Islamic history there have only ever been two migrations that have resulted in the creation of Muslim states. the first was when the Prophet PBUH migrated to Medina and the second was in 1947.

Now you can argue that the spanish migration of the 14th and 15th centuries was significant but none of those resulted in states. Most of those people migrated to Muslim lands or converted. You can say the turkish migrations resulted in the ottoman state but again that would discount the fact the the turkic tribes migrate all the time throughout history.

The two nation theory was born out of practice and experience. Some would say it was pretty last minute. Nevertheless it dawned on the Muslims very quickly after 39 that their future in hindustan would be pretty bleak. It was inevitable. if not in 47 then in 57 or 67. Personally i'd rather live under Zardari than Modi thank you very much. Ive lived side by side with our parosee community for over 30 years. Ive lived with them, traveled with them and done business with them. They are hard working, value education and want to live in peace like us I will not go through the other qualities that I have found incompatible with my own as that is a discussion that could be misconstrued. And I believe the Two nation theory is the best way to achieve that peace. They are not our brothers. Friends yes, but not brothers!

 

[Invictus]

No, I said you can tell a lot about a person based on how they dress, talk and act, not judge a person.

Man you are going to make this about semantics ? Because this will stop being a discussion and become a bickering game.
I don't want to copy and paste bro. You know the context I know the context so whats the point of this game.

Person A says: Anyone who wears blue is an idiot and this person is wearing blue so what they say don't matter.
Person B says: You know you can tell allot by what color a person wears.

Do you see how person B has endorsed person A's views ? Person B can go on and on and play the semantics game. I said "tell a lot" which is not exactly like saying "judge a person" but its kind of like that since I am not saying anything about the views in question at all. At the same time I am endorsing the view that their opinions do not matter because they are wearing a specific color.
And we can go around in circles till kingdom comes. People wear black while in mourning but not everyone who wears black is mourning. So you cant look at someone wearing black and deduce they are mourning. Sometimes it might be true sometimes it wont. But when dealing with humans sometimes is not good enough.

No, I didn’t say you could judge a quality of a batsman, I said you could determine his next move through observation.
If you are going to change words then this discussion is fruitless.

You can observe as much as you want but a batsman who has just came to the crease and hasn't faced a ball yet wont tell you what his next move will be.
I keep saying that over and over. Yes you can make observations, yes you can accumulate data but unless you have enough of it you cannot make a valid claim.

I do get it. Remember when I said for me to judge a person I would need to know everything about that person? Now remember when I said I can get a good ‘indication’ of a personality through observation. The two are not the same, but you are attempting to equate the two!

Bro you are saying that you think she is anti Pakistan because she wears a Sari and that is an indication of her personality ? That's not a judgement call that's her personality ?
I know the difference between the two. But what I think you are doing cannot be described as "determining her personality" you are pretty much making judgement calls and then basing it on your intelligence. Just say its off of experience and I will understand that a bit.

How is that any different to what I was saying where one can determine a mind-set through observation of how one acts, speaks, etc (behaviour) because behaviour is indicative of choice, and choice is indicative of mindest?

How does one determine behaviour without observation?

Its different because behavior is also learned its not completely controlled by your mind. You have an input but its not 100 % and thus cannot be completely attributed to the mind.
There is no other way to determine behavior but by observation. And I keep saying this over and over and over again, that observation has to be made over a period of time. Tested, re-observed and tested again to make valid conclusions. You keep missing that part for some reason.

But it's still spin. I'm a simplistic kind of guy, this is how I view the world.

But the world you occupy is not simplistic bro. It mostly exists in the shades of grey. If you sit there and do not even try to understand it as it exists then its not that intelligent is it.
You wont know spin if you can't differentiate between the two. Both types are world apart. How much you can spin varies based on what type you bowl, where you bowl, how you bowl ?
Like you keep on saying bud, God is in the detail.

Yes, by observing the way you act, speak etc.

Umm yes kinda but there are allot more details besides that.

Who said they did? You are confusing judgement with indication. I was merely pointing out one can determine information through observation – time is irrelevant in your point above.

Sweet baby Jesus bud it is the essence of it all. Judgement calls made on first look and judgement calls made after a period of time spent collecting data are not the same.
First one is height of ignorance second one is inferences made on behavior by observing a subject. Not the same.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

Man you are going to make this about semantics ? Because this will stop being a discussion and become a bickering game.
I don't want to copy and paste bro. You know the context I know the context so whats the point of this game.

Person A says: Anyone who wears blue is an idiot and this person is wearing blue so what they say don't matter.
Person B says: You know you can tell allot by what color a person wears.

Do you see how person B has endorsed person A's views ? Person B can go on and on and play the semantics game. I said "tell a lot" which is not exactly like saying "judge a person" but its kind of like that since I am not saying anything about the views in question at all. At the same time I am endorsing the view that their opinions do not matter because they are wearing a specific color.
And we can go around in circles till kingdom comes. People wear black while in mourning but not everyone who wears black is mourning. So you cant look at someone wearing black and deduce they are mourning. Sometimes it might be true sometimes it wont. But when dealing with humans sometimes is not good enough.



You can observe as much as you want but a batsman who has just came to the crease and hasn't faced a ball yet wont tell you what his next move will be.
I keep saying that over and over. Yes you can make observations, yes you can accumulate data but unless you have enough of it you cannot make a valid claim.



Bro you are saying that you think she is anti Pakistan because she wears a Sari and that is an indication of her personality ? That's not a judgement call that's her personality ?
I know the difference between the two. But what I think you are doing cannot be described as "determining her personality" you are pretty much making judgement calls and then basing it on your intelligence. Just say its off of experience and I will understand that a bit.



Its different because behavior is also learned its not completely controlled by your mind. You have an input but its not 100 % and thus cannot be completely attributed to the mind.
There is no other way to determine behavior but by observation. And I keep saying this over and over and over again, that observation has to be made over a period of time. Tested, re-observed and tested again to make valid conclusions. You keep missing that part for some reason.



But the world you occupy is not simplistic bro. It mostly exists in the shades of grey. If you sit there and do not even try to understand it as it exists then its not that intelligent is it.
You wont know spin if you can't differentiate between the two. Both types are world apart. How much you can spin varies based on what type you bowl, where you bowl, how you bowl ?
Like you keep on saying bud, God is in the detail.




Umm yes kinda but there are allot more details besides that.



Sweet baby Jesus bud it is the essence of it all. Judgement calls made on first look and judgement calls made after a period of time spent collecting data are not the same.
First one is height of ignorance second one is inferences made on behavior by observing a subject. Not the same.

What exactly is your point mate? I think you’ve deviated well from the initial point even though you are agreeing with almost everything I am saying.

You do not need to tell me that by observing for long enough periods I would gather more information. That’s a given, so what is your point?

I think with you it’s a question of morality more than anything else.

The bottom line is without paying attention to one’s behaviour, there’s no way of working out their mind-set, unless they tell you. This is no different to me saying one can tell alot about a person by observing how they act, how they speak, how they dress etc.

I suggest you watch the video then ask yourself why any sane person who loves Pakistan would oppose a two nation state. Or would that count as being judgemental?

 

[Invictus]

What exactly is your point mate? I think you’ve deviated well from the initial point even though you are agreeing with almost everything I am saying.

You do not need to tell me that by observing for long enough periods I would gather more information. That’s a given, so what is your point?

I think with you it’s a question of morality more than anything else.

The bottom line is without paying attention to one’s behaviour, there’s no way of working out their mind-set, unless they tell you. This is no different to me saying one can tell alot about a person by observing how they act, how they speak, how they dress etc.

I suggest you watch the video then ask yourself why any sane person who loves Pakistan would oppose a two nation state. Or would that count as being judgemental?

The exact issue is that you are not accounting for the fact you need specific amount of time to observe a behavior to form valid opinions.
Time is of utmost relevance because if you don't collect enough data you make assertions like these:

"If I see a woman wearing a sari I will use my intelligence and think she is from India. Do you know why? The national dress for a woman in India is a Sari! Then I would apply my intelligence further and deduce she is a Hindu. Why? Because the traditional dress a Hindu woman wears is a sari, substantiated by the fact the traditional dress branches from a Hindu dominated nation - India. Thus there is no ignorance, prejudice, or stupidity in associating a sari with an Indian Hindu. This is a crude fact. Disagree? When you see a man wearing a turban he’s Jewish is he?"

In the above mentioned example you stated if you saw my grand-mother you would be completely utterly wrong about your assertion. You are not being intelligent if you see a woman wearing a Sari and deduce she is from India. Women outside of India wear sari. Being a national dress means jack-squat. National dress of men in Pakistan is Sherwani, how many men do you see in Pakistan wearing Sherwani beside weddings ?
What bothers me is that people living in the West who come in contact with so many different cultures and people from all over the world turn around and use 18th century "wisdom" to look at the world around them.
Oh a hindu woman she has no relevance talking about Pakistan, oh a jew talking about Iran must be biased. When everyday you run into someone who is the exact opposite of that myth. Jews that are anti-Iran, jews that just don't care and jews that I dunno support Iran who knows.
So why turn around and do that to someone when you, yourself would not like to be judged the same way. If you grew a beard tomorrow would you like to be barred from having opinions on Christianity ? Or US foreign policy or whatever else ? And if someone stands up and says muslims have been blowing up all over the world this kid looks like a muslim, acts like one and talk likes one lets take him to Gitmo and have our way with him ? Would that be wise or intelligent ? No right! that would be idiotic. So if you think that its idiotic then try to change that way of thinking and you do that by starting with yourself first.
A woman comes on T.V and says I think two nation theory was bullsh*t, fine discuss the points she made and not what she wore. Because that mind-set creates a slippery slope for people to judge you by your religion and the color of your skin etc etc.
Thats the point.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

Oh I get it.

Initially you challenged this statement:

You can tell a lot about a person by the way they speak, dress, act, and look.

Now you’re saying you do not dispute the fact one can figure out a lot by observing how one acts, one speaks, or one dresses, but rather in this instance my conclusion was premature, hence your point on time.

There are many cases where I do not need specific time to form valid opinions. One look will suffice.

 

[bmwduran]

sorry did I hear that Jinnah british agent theory again? plenty of gujrati muslims seem to have the same idea too..a mythical belief that the Muslims would have ruled India. So pray tell why did the Muslims not rule India in the 1939 election? because that was their best chance right? or was that because Jinnah rigged the election? and why arent they ruling India now as they have 180 million of them as we are always reminded by our parosee's?

Hindsight is an amazing thing. Can you tell me the social and political situation of the Muslims after 1847? we were reduced to an underclass overnight. For your kind information Muslim power was shattered by the British well and truly in 1847 , some would argue way before that in the battle of Plassey.

The Muslims would never have ruled India after 1847.

Say what you want about Jinnah but in Islamic history there have only ever been two migrations that have resulted in the creation of Muslim states. the first was when the Prophet PBUH migrated to Medina and the second was in 1947.

Now you can argue that the spanish migration of the 14th and 15th centuries was significant but none of those resulted in states. Most of those people migrated to Muslim lands or converted. You can say the turkish migrations resulted in the ottoman state but again that would discount the fact the the turkic tribes migrate all the time throughout history.

The two nation theory was born out of practice and experience. Some would say it was pretty last minute. Nevertheless it dawned on the Muslims very quickly after 39 that their future in hindustan would be pretty bleak. It was inevitable. if not in 47 then in 57 or 67. Personally i'd rather live under Zardari than Modi thank you very much. Ive lived side by side with our parosee community for over 30 years. Ive lived with them, traveled with them and done business with them. They are hard working, value education and want to live in peace like us I will not go through the other qualities that I have found incompatible with my own as that is a discussion that could be misconstrued. And I believe the Two nation theory is the best way to achieve that peace. They are not our brothers. Friends yes, but not brothers!

Well said, most of the posters are kids here, barring a few, they dont know what it felt like to be a POW in 1971 war, my father was held in Bareli for two and a half years,
Similarly these kids have book knowledge of partition, the ones who really participated practically are mostly not in this World. This burger, ipad/ipod generation has been left out in the confused world, where they have lost thier identity,

 

[Imran_A]

Well said, most of the posters are kids here, barring a few, they dont know what it felt like to be a POW in 1971 war, my father was held in Bareli for two and a half years,
Similarly these kids have book knowledge of partition, the ones who really participated practically are mostly not in this World. This burger, ipad/ipod generation has been left out in the confused world, where they have lost thier identity,

From what you just said, you also dont know what its like to be a POW, nor were you alive during partition. Are your views any less significant?

 

[the Great Khan]

From what you just said, you also dont know what its like to be a POW, nor were you alive during partition. Are your views any less significant?

no but I believe having a family member go through such trauma gives this individual a more naunced opinion that i would count more than someone who has never been in the aforementioned situation.

 

[PetroDollars]

never seen so much desperation against ZH, surly there's something about him that burns the haters.

like they say 'truth always hurts'

 

[Garuda]

You’ve been skipping my answers and shifting the goalpost.

Now I’ll spoon-feed you the final answer cos you obviously haven’t figured it out. Ask yourself why she is opposing a two nation state, one of them being the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, where she is currently residing. If she loved Pakistan, if she felt Pakistan was her identiy, she wouldn’t oppose the creation of Pakistan let alone live in Pakistan while wearing a Sari; she'd be wearing Pakistan's national dress.

Penny dropped yet?

Again as usual you didn't answer the question.

Does wearing a saree means not agreeing to Pakistan ?

Secondly, does everyone in Pakistan wear one dress ? Is there any law?

Give answers to these questions straight than beating around.

 

[the Great Khan]

Again as usual you didn't answer the question.

Does wearing a saree means not agreeing to Pakistan ?

Secondly, does everyone in Pakistan wear one dress ? Is there any law?

Give answers to these questions straight than beating around.

let me help since it was my initial comment that initiated your discussion in the first place.

what you wear essentially reflects your mindset. For example members of the military wear one uniform that is the same with only rank insignia the difference. Why? because the military needs its soldiers to think together not as individuals.(althought that is required at times) It also instills discipline, same theory applies to school, police etc.

now lets look at national dress. The national dress of most country's reflects identity. A muslim is asked to dress modestly , hence many muslim nations adopt loose clothing adapted to their brand of culture or requirement. The sari if worn in a way that extentuates a womans figure, and shows her body off is not termed permissable. Why when the individual in question lives in pakistan , is she wearing a sari and a bindia? her subsequent statements point to her mindset of seeing herself perhaps more pan subcontinental rather than Pakistani in her outlook. Hence her desire to perhaps relate to Indians or lankans who prefer saris.

In my experience the sari is seen as a predominatley Hindu dress. But many Muslims do wear it.

I still think it reflects ones mindset, just as mush as wearing a burka reflects anothers mindset.

t the end of the day the way we dress says alot about us. e.g. would you go to a IT Project management interview wearing shorts and a T shirt?

 

[Garuda]

^^ Big explaination for a simple question.

Does anyone wearing Saree means she is anti-Pakistan ?

Cuz my initial question was this.

 

[PakPrince]

You’ve been skipping my answers and shifting the goalpost.

Now I’ll spoon-feed you the final answer cos you obviously haven’t figured it out. Ask yourself why she is opposing a two nation state, one of them being the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, where she is currently residing. If she loved Pakistan, if she felt Pakistan was her identiy, she wouldn’t oppose the creation of Pakistan let alone live in Pakistan while wearing a Sari; she'd be wearing Pakistan's national dress.

Penny dropped yet?

have you ever been to a wedding in Pakistan?
or maybe some high school farewell?
I guess the women and girls in those events are not Pakistani
i know you are a bbcd so please dont make stupid claims

 

[PakPrince]

let me help since it was my initial comment that initiated your discussion in the first place.

what you wear essentially reflects your mindset. For example members of the military wear one uniform that is the same with only rank insignia the difference. Why? because the military needs its soldiers to think together not as individuals.(althought that is required at times) It also instills discipline, same theory applies to school, police etc.

now lets look at national dress. The national dress of most country's reflects identity. A muslim is asked to dress modestly , hence many muslim nations adopt loose clothing adapted to their brand of culture or requirement. The sari if worn in a way that extentuates a womans figure, and shows her body off is not termed permissable. Why when the individual in question lives in pakistan , is she wearing a sari and a bindia? her subsequent statements point to her mindset of seeing herself perhaps more pan subcontinental rather than Pakistani in her outlook. Hence her desire to perhaps relate to Indians or lankans who prefer saris.

In my experience the sari is seen as a predominatley Hindu dress. But many Muslims do wear it.

I still think it reflects ones mindset, just as mush as wearing a burka reflects anothers mindset.

t the end of the day the way we dress says alot about us. e.g. would you go to a IT Project management interview wearing shorts and a T shirt?

now make sure you never wear t shirts, jeans, suits and ties

because those are western clothing and if you do wear them you have a western mindset and are anti Islam aswell

(going by your logic)

Saree is not a Hindu dress. Its a south asian dress.

 

[Garuda]

My question is not at all about if Saree is Pakistani/Islam or not.

My objection to the comment is when ppl comment on someone becoming anti-Pakistan just because she is wearing Saree ?? That's just unbelievable.


So if Bala Saheb Thakrey wears a salwar kameez, will he become pro-pakistani ?

 

[Stewie]

Saree for most in Pakistan is a bit unPakistan like because it does expose the mid riff area which is prohibited in the majority religion in Pakistan.

You will mostly find Saree wearing a common practice in Karachi but it is not commonly worn in most other parts of Pakistan.

So I can understand why it can be considered unPakistani or an Indian import.

 

[Garuda]

Saree for most in Pakistan is a bit unPakistan like because it does expose the mid riff area which is prohibited in the majority religion in Pakistan.

You will mostly find Saree wearing a common practice in Karachi but it is not commonly worn in most other parts of Pakistan.

So I can understand why it can be considered unPakistani or an Indian import.

So anyone wearing a Saree will be anti-Pakistani by default ?

I am not sure if you are validating this thought or assuming.

 

[Garuda]

Everyone is trying to justify even if they all know that its wrong to brand someone anti-pakistani just on the basis of what she is wearing .

But no one is giving a straight answer. Just yes/No/May be/ I donno. give an answer to a straight question.

 

[Stewie]

Garuda... Will any article of clothing or your choice of attire (or lack thereof) ever amount to any anti national sentiment??

I really do not think so. And I am not part of the debate you are engaged in. I just wanted to share my opinion about Sarees in Pakistan. Make what you want of it.

 

[youboy]

Saree for most in Pakistan is a bit unPakistan like because it does expose the mid riff area which is prohibited in the majority religion in Pakistan.

You will mostly find Saree wearing a common practice in Karachi but it is not commonly worn in most other parts of Pakistan.

So I can understand why it can be considered unPakistani or an Indian import.

Everyone is trying to justify even if they all know that its wrong to brand someone anti-pakistani just on the basis of what she is wearing .

But no one is giving a straight answer. Just yes/No/May be/ I donno. give an answer to a straight question.

I think I know why you want a yes or no answer. Maybe you want to post pictures of Fatima Jinnah or someone else wearing a Saree. Saree is an old dress in the subcontinent area. Even in Sudan the ladies wear Saree. The only difference is the Saree wore by most Muslims will not reveal belly. (Not saying about Pakistani ladies now a days, who are gone very far from the religion).

No wearing Saree will not make you anti Pakistan

She is not being called anti Pakistan because of what she is wearing. It is because of what she speaks & practice.

I hope this answers your question and end the debate on wearing Saree.

 

[KingKhanWC]

1. Wearing a Sari = Not Islamic dress - Not Pakistani traditional dress.

2. Speaking against Pakistan's creation.

1+2 = Anti Pakistani.

I doubt the trolls will get it though.

 

[akheR]

What is so difficult to answer this ?

Does wearing a saree makes a Pakistani woman anti-Pakistani ? Come on.

What is so random about it?

What would you think if a bearded Hindu (or not) in salwar kameez and with a skullcap/taqiyah talked about, say, the Kashmir issue or the Gujarat riots ? It's about symbol, you just feel that the individual shouldn't talk about it : when you're accused of refuting the Two Nation Theory and then we see you in a sari and with a bindi, it's a bit too much of a symbol - and that certainly what KingKhan thought.

BUT neither is Marvi Sirmed Hindu nor she's anti-Pakistan if we believe that she puts the Pakistan flag as her Twitter background's picture for ideological reasons ; she was accused by Zaid Hamid of being against the Two Nation Theory, but I don't know, didn't come across the article mentioned, so can't say.

I find the sari totally inelegant though, but that's more about aesthetics and not really prone to debate.

 

[Garuda]

Garuda... Will any article of clothing or your choice of attire (or lack thereof) ever amount to any anti national sentiment??

I really do not think so. And I am not part of the debate you are engaged in. I just wanted to share my opinion about Sarees in Pakistan. Make what you want of it.

That is absolutely a fair comment and I do not have any problem with that.

And to your question about my choice. No. I don't think I can calculate one's nationalism/patriotism just from his dressing.

Do you think our RSS people are more Patriot Indians than us who wear Jeans or even sometimes Islamic attire ?

How would I feel if a RSS fellow brands me as Pakistani if I wear a Salwaar Kameez.


So to me dress reflects culture thats it. In every culture you have people who loves you and hates you. So a saree wearing person may be Pakistani lover at the same time another saree wearing may be pakistani hater. A dress itself doesn't define one's thought.

 

[Garuda]

What would you think if a bearded Hindu (or not) in salwar kameez and with a skullcap/taqiyah talked about, say, the Kashmir issue or the Gujarat riots ? It's about symbol, you just feel that the individual shouldn't talk about it : when you're accused of refuting the Two Nation Theory and then we see you in a sari and with a bindi, it's a bit too much of a symbol - and that certainly what KingKhan thought.

BUT neither is Marvi Sirmed Hindu nor she's anti-Pakistan if we believe that she puts the Pakistan flag as her Twitter background's picture for ideological reasons ; she was accused by Zaid Hamid of being against the Two Nation Theory, but I don't know, didn't come across the article mentioned, so can't say.

I find the sari totally inelegant though, but that's more about aesthetics and not really prone to debate.

I may say he is a Pro-Pakistani as he is supporting Pakistan cause.

But saying, he is a pro-Pakistani just cuz he is wearing this is stupid. And I think you agree with this.

I am okay if you say I do not support her thought and she sounds anti-Pakistani. But just cuz she is wearing Saree she doesn't become anti-Pakistani.


Secondly, in your country there are hindus too. Do they have the right to wear saree ? So do they become anti-Pakistani for wearing saree ?

 

[Stewie]

I think you guys have veered off topic in a petty debate. I see a lot of time and bandwidth wasted here over something trivial

 

[Garuda]

1. Wearing a Sari = Not Islamic dress - Not Pakistani traditional dress.

2. Speaking against Pakistan's creation.

1+2 = Anti Pakistani.

I doubt the trolls will get it though.

Good you came back. Lets clarify from the author.

This is what you said

"This woman does not believe in a two nation state and is dressed as a Hindu. She doesn't want Pakistan to exist."

so, lets take your new theory.

she doesn't belive in two nation theory so anti pakistnai. Fair enough.

How does dressing like a hindu becomes anti-Pakistani ? So are all hindus in Pakistan are anti-Pakistani ?

 

[Garuda]

I think you guys have veered off topic in a petty debate. I see a lot of time and bandwidth wasted here over something trivial

There was not much of a debate. I asked a straight question.

You answered in one single post and I am happy with your answer.

But some instead of answering it try to justify it with with big explainations.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

she doesn't belive in two nation theory so anti pakistnai. Fair enough.

Which is why she is wearing a Sari!

 

[Namak_Halaal]

There was not much of a debate. I asked a straight question.

You answered in one single post and I am happy with your answer.

If you are happy with Stevie's answer then why are you demanding more answers?

 

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

Does wearing a saree makes a Pakistani woman anti-Pakistani ? Come on.

See I haven't changed the question at all

No, but wearing a traditional Indian dress whilst spouting anti-Pakistani ideas does make it appear as such.

Can't believe you're having such a difficult time grasping something so simple.

 

[Garuda]

No, but wearing a traditional Indian dress whilst spouting anti-Pakistani ideas does make it appear as such.

Can't believe you're having such a difficult time grasping something so simple.

Bingo. So it's not the attire but the impression of people watching.

Also as you say, it appears but may not be the reality.

And honestly, everyone is grasping but unlike you they do not want to accept that.

 

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

Bingo. So it's not the attire but the impression of people watching.

Also as you say, it appears but may not be the reality.

And honestly, everyone is grasping but unlike you they do not want to accept that.

Actually, attire does make an impression. If lets suppose she was sitting in some morning show wearing the same outfit speaking against Atif Aslam, the first reaction of many Pakistanis would more or less be that she's an Indian based on her dressing first along with her comments.

People (that don't know her) wouldn't think twice that she is a Pakistani until they research, find out her name, etc.

 

[Garuda]

Actually, attire does make an impression. If lets suppose she was sitting in some morning show wearing the same outfit speaking against Atif Aslam, the first reaction of many Pakistanis would more or less be that she's an Indian based on her dressing first along with her comments.

People (that don't know her) wouldn't think twice that she is a Pakistani until they research, find out her name, etc.

As I said, I agree with your this view that it may give an impression that someone is Indian from the dress. So its a cultural thing which you link with the attire.

But anyone wearing a saree in Pakistan doesn't become anti-pakistan by default. which you agreed.

But to same question which NH is dodging. What is so hard to accept that wearing saree by a pakistani doesn't make her a anti-pakistani ?

 

[Namak_Halaal]

If some one can tell me what Garuda is talking about now I would be grateful. From where I am standing he's accepted a multiple of answers, including mine, but says I am dodging the question. How can anyone debate with one who is confused is beyond me.

Garuda, please repeat your question, I don't think it's been repeated or answered enough thus far.

 

[Garuda]

If some one can tell me what Garuda is talking about now I would be grateful. From where I am standing he's accepted a multiple of answers, including mine, but says I am dodging the question. How can anyone debate with one who is confused is beyond me.

Garuda, please repeat your question, I don't think it's been repeated or answered enough thus far.

I don't mind repeating

Does wearing a saree makes a Pakistani woman anti-Pakistani ? Come on.

Try it.

 

[Stewie]

Repetitive, redundant, pointless... please add similar adjectives of your own choice.


Going back to the original topic of discussion: This showdown was of no consequence. I would like to see more of it albeit in a more civilised and methodical setting. I dont think ZH got utterly humilated here, regardless of how idiotic he can be at times. I think the CHisti guy ended up being the bigger loser at the end.

 

[deviously~fading~away]

sorry but i dont understand what your saying. Is talking about Iqbal crap? what particualrly about iqbal do you not like?

Im disgusted at this new wave of anti Iqbalism. pathetic and sick. The secualrists have sunk lower than even i thought they could. No doubt love for Pakistan isnt high on their agenda!! sick people!

This new wave of seculars are as bad as the religious right. They are so insecure & obsessed with West that they are criticizing their own heroes like Jinnah & Iqbal.

Sad times we live in.

 

[kkmix]

Saree for most in Pakistan is a bit unPakistan like because it does expose the mid riff area which is prohibited in the majority religion in Pakistan.

LOL ... un-Islamic maybe. But un-Pakistani? Lmao.

 

[smoothcriminal]

^ Exactly. It is worn in so many events like weddings and gatherings. It is in ABUNDANCE. Pakistani women are actually known to have a very hard time learning how to "baand/wear" a saari because you wear it on special occasions, which I would think gives credibility to the notion that it is a standout dress. I have an aunty who always wore a saaree whenever she came to our place and it was so common.

 

[KingKhanWC]

LOL ... un-Islamic maybe. But un-Pakistani? Lmao.

Maybe in your home town of Karachi were the love for mother India is great. but I've never seen/hear of a single Pakistani woman wear a sari in Islamabad/Pindi region. Kapreh aur dil be Pakistani.

If one of my female relatives wore a Sari she wouldn't be laughed at.

 

[kkmix]

Maybe in your home town of Karachi were the love for mother India is great. but I've never seen/hear of a single Pakistani woman wear a sari in Islamabad/Pindi region. Kapreh aur dil be Pakistani.

If one of my female relatives wore a Sari she wouldn't be laughed at.

LOL ... I would make an arrogant joke too about your home town but that would offend others here .

But yeah if we don't want others to judge us based on how we dress then we gotta stop being hypocrites and not judge others based on how they dress, or look for that matter.

 

[KingKhanWC]

LOL ... I would make an arrogant joke too about your home town but that would offend others here .

But yeah if we don't want others to judge us based on how we dress then we gotta stop being hypocrites and not judge others based on how they dress, or look for that matter.

You wear a Sari kkmix?

It wasn't a slur on Karachi but the point being is just because it's seen in one city doesn't mean it's all over Pakistan. I've been all around the Pindi area many many times in all sorts of enviornments but have never seen a single woman wear a sari.

btw You deny there is sizeable population of Karachi who whole India dear in their hearts more than the average Pakistani?