Zaid Hamid humiliated on TV

[Junooni]

^ A a very poor post written as expected from an Indian. Which 3 wars are you talking about? Yes in 1971 you took our soldiers as prisoners but that War also was started as a proxy War with the support of Mukti Bahni and Sheikh Mujibur Rahman by India. In 1965 and in Kargil you got a beating from our Army so no need for chest thumping on such beatings. And you should also take into consideration the difference in sizes of our Army and yours. Realistically our Army with its size should have no chance against Indian Army but regardless of this we always give a tough fight and on more than one occasion a very good beating to your huge Army.

umm. lets be honest here. I am a Pakistani but we should not run away from the facts. We got beaten in 1965 war as well. Some may say that we should call it even between the two sides but really, WE started that war and failed to achieve everything that we set out to achieve. Had we won the war, Kashmir would be part of our land today.

1971 was of course a war where we got the most humiliating phainty by the indians. We would probably have laid claim to victory in that war as well had we not been so embarassingly exposed. And lets not even get started on who won the kargil war

To be honest, Pakistani Army can only claim to have had a semblance of victory in one war - The Afghan Jihad against the soviets. And that too has not turned out too well for us looking at our present condition

So yeah. To summarize. Pakistan have lost to India in all 3 wars. Its an uncomfortable truth but the truth nevertheless. But reading history from unbiased perspective will make this clear very soon.

 

[NJamal]

umm. lets be honest here. I am a Pakistani but we should not run away from the facts. We got beaten in 1965 war as well. Some may say that we should call it even between the two sides but really, WE started that war and failed to achieve everything that we set out to achieve. Had we won the war, Kashmir would be part of our land today.

1971 was of course a war where we got the most humiliating phainty by the indians. We would probably have laid claim to victory in that war as well had we not been so embarassingly exposed. And lets not even get started on who won the kargil war

To be honest, Pakistani Army can only claim to have had a semblance of victory in one war - The Afghan Jihad against the soviets. And that too has not turned out too well for us looking at our present condition

So yeah. To summarize. Pakistan have lost to India in all 3 wars. Its an uncomfortable truth but the truth nevertheless. But reading history from unbiased perspective will make this clear very soon.

I did not claim that Pakistan won those wars and in reality there are no winners in War. I just said that with limited capabilities and small numbers (in comparison to Indian Army) our Army did well to inflict considerable damages on the Indian Army in 1965 & Kargil Wars.

 

[youboy]

Iqbal's the same guy who wrote 'Tarana-e-Hind' ?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Xslp6jeTKxc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


If yes, i support him.
To this day remains the favorite patriotic song of mine. Saare Jahan se achha, Hindustan humara
^Written by a proud Muslim^

Have you noticed in the video, The singers, the directors and special thanks people names are shown but poets name is not shown. Indian flag is shown but the poem was written 43 years before Indian Independence. I don't whether it is full video or not.

This ghazal or poem was written by Allama Iqbal in 1904-1905.

Here I am not claiming that India cannot used this song or who am I to claim that. Its about India and every country has a right to use anything to portray what is good in their country.

Just posted this comment on a historical point of view that when the song was written.

Bhai what i intended to bring to table was the philosophy of Mr.Iqbal. What the Pathan brothers and ZH out there are preaching is totally opposite to Iqbal's views.

It's like they don't even know the man whom they are using to fight the so called secular demons. In that regard, they are the ones who are actually disgracing Mr.Iqbal because Iqbal was of the opinion that religion should have nothing to do with the business of the state. So it is quite dumb on their part

Let me give you a little history lesson. It was Allama Muhammad Iqbal who first raised his voice asking for a separate homeland for Muslims in 1930.

ALLAMA IQBAL- The founder of Muslim politics in the Indian Subcontinent

by R.Upadhyay

"Sir Mohammad Iqbal (1877-1938) popularly revered as Allama (Great Scholar) Iqbal on the other hand enunciated two-nation theory and separated Muslim nationalism from Indian nationalism with the same objective and became the political ideologue for Pakistan movement. He did not continue with his intellectual worldview on Indian nationalism, which he often projected during his student days. He was the first seminal Islamist, who expanded this theory of Muslim separatism in his presidential speech of Muslim League session at Allahabad in 1930 and firmly established it in Indian Muslim mind for their political exclusivism. Later Mohammad Ali Jinnah implemented it as political ideology for accelerating Pakistan movement".

source : http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/\papers9\paper895.html

 

[saadibaba]

^ A a very poor post written as expected from an Indian. Which 3 wars are you talking about? Yes in 1971 you took our soldiers as prisoners but that War also was started as a proxy War with the support of Mukti Bahni and Sheikh Mujibur Rahman by India. In 1965 and in Kargil you got a beating from our Army so no need for chest thumping on such beatings. And you should also take into consideration the difference in sizes of our Army and yours. Realistically our Army with its size should have no chance against Indian Army but regardless of this we always give a tough fight and on more than one occasion a very good beating to your huge Army.

)

This is what happens when you start taking people like Zaid Hamid seriously.

 

[Junooni]

Here is a very interesting piece on the historical facts about Pak and India wars. And just a big facepalm on some of the absurd comments of Hamid Gul here. What morons we had in our Army.

It is often said that Pakistan has better soldiers but India has better generals. Strategy comes from the Greek work strategos which means general. Better strategy wins the war. What passes for strategy in Pakistan is tactics raised to the level of strategy, to the detriment of the state.
A recent book by Tahir Malik, Richard Bonney and Tridev Singh Maini, Warriors after War (Peter Lang 2011) carries interviews of generals of both sides. What emerges confirms past assessments of Pakistani generals. The Indian generals are more professional; the Pakistani ones are ideological — therefore non-professional — and daring. The Indians speak from the drill; Pakistanis are unorthodox and swashbuckling.
Stereotypes: the average Indian officer will say Pakistan was a mistake; the average Pakistani officer will say India never accepted Pakistan. Both stances are wrong. The first one can’t be proved; the second one has been proved wrong again and again.
Being a general in a status quo state with unconquerable size is laid-back, intellectually fertile, and lacking in daring tactics; his counterpart has to be fidgety in peace, trigger-happy, non-intellectual and daring. India is better-off not being revisionist vis-à-vis China or it may have produced generals in the Pakistani mould. The paradox in the case of Pakistan is that defeat teaches nothing.
From the Indian side those interviewed included: Maj-Gen Gagandeep Bakshi, Lt-Gen Kamaleshwar Dawar, General VP Malik, etc. From Pakistan, we have General Mirza Aslam Beg, General Hamid Gul, General Talat Masood, Major-Gen Syed Wajahat Hussain, Brigadier Shaukat Qadir, etc.
Aslam Beg says: The 1965 and 1971 wars were defeats for Pakistan. Jihad is ordained and has bestowed dividends in Afghanistan and Kashmir because of Divine Will behind Jihad. “In Pakistan, Pakhtun power has emerged as a reality. There are over three million Pakhtuns in Karachi; their power extends to Balochistan, NWFP and to the Hindukush mountains. Their fight for freedom, since 1980, has galvanised them into a formidable force, combining the forces of Pakhtun nationalism, Islamic idealism (jihad) and the universalism of the Islamic resistance against oppression, with its hard core resting along the Durand Line.”
Hamid Gul says: “Indian secularism is a ruse as Babri Mosque proved it. This is my reason for dislike of India. The rift with India has a solid basis and that is why the Muslims living in the subcontinent — whether in Pakistan, Bangladesh or India — are one nation. The 1965 war was an interrupted victory because finance minister Shoaib sabotaged it. Foreign minister Zafrullah Khan sabotaged the 1948 war. I strongly believe that the sole purpose of the Pakistani Army is to liberate Kashmir from Indian occupation. I assure you that India is in a miserable state. Deep down, Indians are afraid of Pakistan.”
Major-General Syed Wajahat Hussain says: “Jinnah emphasised a liberal, tolerant and outward-looking, progressive Pakistan. Hamid is wrong on the 1948 war. Jinnah never wanted it and it was abandoned after Pakistan Army Chief General Gracey and Liaquat agreed with Jinnah to call it off. The 1965 war was our mistake. Extremism and the concept of jihad were never part of the Pakistani Army.”
He goes on: “General Zia was the first to introduce the concept of jihad and shahadat. Pakistan has suffered more than India in the three declared wars. The people who were supported once by us are those who are causing terrorism in Pakistan today.”
Lieutenant-General Talat Masood is for normalising ties with India instead of fighting. He thinks President Zardari is sticking his neck out to improve relations with India. His vision of relations with India is driven by economic and cultural motivations and is futuristic in approach.
Brigadier Shaukat Qadir is remarkably perceptive, challenging the military’s fundamental tenets of war: “The military is responsible for converting a genuine movement for an independent Kashmir into a jihad — the greatest damage that we could do and did. Both 1965 and 1971 wars were acts of stupidity. Musharraf, like others of his ilk, is given to bragging. Our oft-quoted strategic location is strategic only if commerce flows through it in all directions.”
Today, because the Pakistan Army is not allowed to self-correct, it is being penetrated by a thinking that not only negates the military profession but the state itself. Professional soldiers are silent, Aslam Beg and Hamid Gul are encouraging Pakistan’s nemesis, the non-state actors, to pull apart whatever is left of the country.

 

[ftbno1]

^ A a very poor post written as expected from an Indian. Which 3 wars are you talking about? Yes in 1971 you took our soldiers as prisoners but that War also was started as a proxy War with the support of Mukti Bahni and Sheikh Mujibur Rahman by India. In 1965 and in Kargil you got a beating from our Army so no need for chest thumping on such beatings. And you should also take into consideration the difference in sizes of our Army and yours. Realistically our Army with its size should have no chance against Indian Army but regardless of this we always give a tough fight and on more than one occasion a very good beating to your huge Army.

In 1965 you had a better equipped army and fought an army which was low on moral after defeat against China.Still we conquered more of your territory than you conquered ours.You spend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965 How was this a thumping is beyond me.most of your GDP is spent on defence so obviously your soldiers are better equipped.Yours is a security oriented state while ours is people welfare state.We have never started war ever in our history.Every one knows about 1971 where you were defeated resoundingly and what you mentioned above is just an excuse.In Kargil even after launching more than 10 years of proxy war and having a mammoth advantage of being on top of mountain you were not able to capture an inch of kargil and your PM had to run to US to stop the war.How was that a beating.Had our politicians allowed our troops to cross LOC (like your soldiers did) victory would have been much more resounding.Such was greatness of your army that they returned dead bodies of our soldiers after mutilating them and refused to accept bodies of their own soldiers because it would hamper their casualties number.Again as I said I am not claiming mistakes were not made by us.And as educated indivisual it is our duty to look at our own mistakes rather than seeking pleasure in ridiculing other as ZH does.Thats what Hasan Nisar is doing showing you your own mistakes.Wish we had someone like him.

 

[WithLoveFromCanada]

ftbno1 you created a useless thread. You've gone from zaid hamid to 1965 war. Neither Zaid Hamid was humiliated in this video nor thread has anything to do about 1965. You should post meaningful stuff.

 

[DW44]

in 1965 you had a better equipped army and fought an army which was low on moral after defeat against china.still we conquered more of your territory than you conquered ours.you spend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/indo-pakistani_war_of_1965 how was this a thumping is beyond me.most of your gdp is spent on defence so obviously your soldiers are better equipped.yours is a security oriented state while ours is people welfare state.we have never started war ever in our history.every one knows about 1971 where you were defeated resoundingly and what you mentioned above is just an excuse.in kargil even after launching more than 10 years of proxy war and having a mammoth advantage of being on top of mountain you were not able to capture an inch of kargil and your pm had to run to us to stop the war.how was that a beating.had our politicians allowed our troops to cross loc (like your soldiers did) victory would have been much more resounding.such was greatness of your army that they returned dead bodies of our soldiers after mutilating them and refused to accept bodies of their own soldiers because it would hamper their casualties number.again as i said i am not claiming mistakes were not made by us.and as educated indivisual it is our duty to look at our own mistakes rather than seeking pleasure in ridiculing other as zh does.thats what hasan nisar is doing showing you your own mistakes.wish we had someone like him.

2.6%

 

[tahaqureshi]

2.6%

I think he should have said most of the government budget.

 

[DW44]

I think he should have said most of the government budget.

In that case, it was between 19.9 and 24.8 percent of the budget using a low figure of $5.16 billion and a high of $7 billion. That's still not 'most' of the budget or the GDP.

 

[ftbno1]

2.6%

Out more than 100 words this was only thing you picked up??Ok i take back my statement but it is a fact that all pakistani soldiers were better equipped in all the wars including kargil(as told by an indipendent report).Large part of our defence budget goes to internal security mechnism.Even in the time of kargil we were spending less.Thanks to pakistan and its habit of attacking just when our guard is down india has become biggest importer of arms in the world.That is the biggest damage your country has done to us as that money could have spent on development purposes if we had a liberal neighbour.

 

[Tapori]

I've been listening to Hassan Nisar a lot recently. He speaks the truth and he is not afraid to say what he believes. Zaid Hamid was glorifying Iqbal as if he was a Newton cum Einsten. Iqbal was a great philosopher and poet but that's pretty much all.

This. Iqbal was a legend. But The UK's NHS and welfare state wasn't made by Charles Dickens either...

Zaid Hamid saab, should note it was German money that preserved Iqbals residence for us all to see. For Iqbal had great admiration for the West and Germany and London in Particular. The German;s recognised this.

(Paraphrasing Iqbal's most relevant quote to a large degree)
When I go to the West I see Islam but no Muslims
Here I see Muslims but no Islam

Mohammed Ali Jinnah the de facto separator of Religion and Political Legislature (yes abdulrazzaqfan I know, I know, but actions such as this IMO speak louder than words nor are they incompatible to the words you've quoted elsewhere...) was the leader that actually had the acumen and intelligence to clash with his peers and contemporaries to form Pakistan.

Genral Zia and the later Hijackers of Islam have put paid to his vision of a confident. liberal (note this isn't a term that denotes secularism no matter which side you support), progressive country much like Turkey now and the best aspects of the USA of that time and now.

He was not one iota like the Lion that is Zaid Hamid of course!
A rich, fairly liberal (Great fan of acting himself, Shakespere and such Theatre his passion), pint sipping refined Gentlemen, trained and Educated in...

The West. That is where the Knowledge is. Knowledge is Power. He didn't sit thinking:

"Oh the British have made us slaves, it's all their fault so I want nothing at all to do with them. let me just sit and Pontificate on Mohammad Bin Kasim and the Sahabbah and the Rasool and The Caliphate and one day we will rise if we just wallow in self-pity and a false pride in our cherry picked notions of Pan-Arab islamic History..."

No, he educated himself in the highest institutes of Knowledge and applied it Pragmatically and Intelligently. He used his Aql rather than waffle.

The West Learnt from the East. Why not now learn not only from that History of the East the West benefitted from but how the West have today applied it and furthered it.

Notice Zaid saab avoiding that inconvenient truth.

The issue always with Zaid Hamid and people like the fake Dr that is Amir Liaquat is that they are at the very best ignorant and naive or are at the very worst populist pandering to the extent that they can't see the crap buried beneath them isn't the sole fault of the West and to solve it you might well have to learn from the West...

If my Pakistani brethren break each others legs, slap people at poll booths, try to do short cuts every which way but a Halal way, treat our women like infants, poison our children's food, it ain't because of a AK-47 pointed at us from the US is it?

Read some Charles Dickens (Oh no a western writer, what can he teach me!) and tragically marvel at how similiar his depictions of a hypocritical society in all spheres from poor to rich, religious to liberal, are to Pakistani Society today...

 

[humzy]

You are seriously deluded pal. I don't want to sound disrespectful but you really are deluded if you think you have more intellect or courage than ZH. I don't think you have the capability to understand where he is coming from. You're the poster who suggested prostitution could be legalised in a Muslim nation. lol.

Yes he has so much intellect.. still waiting for pakistan to reach the moon, while they have a poverty and resource epedemic in the country lol...

Ofcourse i have the capability to understand him.. like i said before.. his view was my view when i was 16, a young and hot blooded patriotic australian born pakistani teenager.. but i grew up and gained intellect.. now im a man for humanity, not just or one nation and against another..

My comment about legalising prostitution was simply my opinion of what should happen.. not of what could happen in a muslim nation.. it is a very logical answer to the illegal mujra's where police come in and collect their weekly bribe and prostitutes pray to allah and then go about their daily job of selling themselves.

 

[Tapori]

I don't think you have the capability to understand where he is coming from.

True. I don't think he, nor I, nor most on this planet, have such a level of acumen.

The Russian, Chinese and American secret authorities are currently fighting to see who can harness this most bountiful and wondrous natural resource bestowed upon us by Allah.

What untold mysteries and untapped potential lie within his brilliant brain? Who knows? Maybe we don't currently have the technology or knowledge to fully harness it's capabilities. We might have to wait for Hazrat Isa (PBUH) to return, less we misuse the power that lies within his mind and obliterate mankind...

How proud we should be that he was born a Pakistani and a Muslim!

What a man. What a man. What a mighty good man...

 

[Markhor]

No wonder Pakistan is in the state its in.

Still the topic of the day is liberal vs fundamentalist, who is pious and who is kafr. Who has a beard, who is more patriotic.

If the energy crisis, corruption, illiteracy was debated in the same vigour and passion as this debate, then we might be getting someplace.

 

[Tapori]

Markhor - Maybe it's not too different from the satanic US of A, after all!

Note India Bashers: The E.U. - Yes it ain't perfect, but Europe has shed more bloodshed than most and has more rivalries in history than you can write, and yet years later they recognized they couldn't go on with that level of hate and had to co-operate to survive...

But yeah prepare for Zaid saabs battle for Ghazwa-E-Hind... It's definitely coming with an accompanying book as sequel to his blockbuster:

 

[Imran_A]

No wonder Pakistan is in the state its in.

Still the topic of the day is liberal vs fundamentalist, who is pious and who is kafr. Who has a beard, who is more patriotic.

If the energy crisis, corruption, illiteracy was debated in the same vigour and passion as this debate, then we might be getting someplace.

Top post this. I hope the Zaid Hamid followers read this and try to understand what it means. Its not about one-upping each other. Its about progressing as a nation.

 

[bmwduran]

Nisar states that poety is haraam in Islam, he talk abkut others to get their facts straightened out yet he does nt has his facts straight,if we go by his statement then Naat and Hamd are also a form of poetry.

We need someone balanced with not too liberal as some posters are here, especiLly from I dian side, and not too rigid on his religious views, as some are from the other side, liberalism has given us AIDS, i literally mean it, because u can be very liberal to go for the animals, replacing women with them. On the other hand u get those lunatic suicidal barbarians who take the lives of humans, just like normal humans do groceries.

 

[ITGuy]

Zaid Hamid Ideology & Philosophy reminds me of the George Costanza's line from Seinfeld

 

[PakPrince]

Not a huge fan of Zaid Hamid.

But real Pakistanis also vote for Zardari, Nawaz Sharif and Altaf Hussain. Again, and again, and again.

I dont know where you get again and again and again from. There are simple reasons why these people get voted. Lack of any other option is one of the main reasons. Now Inshallah PTI will get representation as there is a clear positive alternative.

Secondly and most importantly they get votes because of the feudal society where choudhrays and waderas literally treat their farmers as slaves and make them votee for the local representative. Dont go about throwing mud on the poor people who have to go through this.

As for individual reason:
Zardari - he has technically never run for anything. His party got votes on account of his dead wife. HE never got any votes

Sharif - Not from Punjab but PML-N has done work in that area so that could be another reason.

Altaf - Frankly if you take apart the party's militant wing, MQM is the best party out there and has delivered in Karachi whenever it has the chance. If I they dropped their violent ways I would vote for them over PTI as they back up their talk. I saw their work from 2002-2007 from my own eyes and positively affected many people's lives



as for Prince_Pathan post, I value professionalism aswell and I aagree we lack it here. But its not as if it is some genetic trait of overseas Pakistanis. Its jsut the surrounding you grow up in

In any case I dont see what relation that has to Zahid Hamid. I have seen enough of the guy and was a big admirer of him till a few years ago but there is not doubt that he talks a lot of bs. If you want i can post some idiotic statements by him but theres a thread on that already

 

[PakPrince]

No wonder Pakistan is in the state its in.

Still the topic of the day is liberal vs fundamentalist, who is pious and who is kafr. Who has a beard, who is more patriotic.

If the energy crisis, corruption, illiteracy was debated in the same vigour and passion as this debate, then we might be getting someplace.

This!

You never see debates on any of those topics by posters here as tthey dont have to go through that.

 

[Imran_A]

Its an interesting analysis how things are being debated in this thread. We are not debating whether Iqbal was a good man or not, we are debating whether he was the greatest ever or just very good. And the people who think he was the greatest thing to ever walk the face of the earth, feel those who think he was just a good poet are making a mockery of his entire life. And now they must stand up to protect him? Seriously? Is this what we have become?

Have we forgotten each and every single thing about our own prophet's life? There's a lot to learn from how he lived. He didnt care about how people treated him. Even those that mocked him to his face, he would just smile and walk away. You "Islamists" need to go back and actually learn a thing or two about Islam before you start your chest thumping sessions on an internet message board.

I've read a lot of negative posts about "secularists" and "liberals" on this thread. Sure, its easy to wave a Quran around and pretend to be a "good muslim" but its a lot harder to come up with actual solutions that make the lives of all muslims better and give us the internal financial strength to not have to bow down to the will of other countries. The "secularist agenda" is not an anti-religious one, this is a complete straw man. If you really thought about how it works, and what we are asking for, you would realize that we dont want to end religion. We dont want to diminish the impact of religion on Pakistan. All we are asking for is some moderation, to be able to get along with everyone.

You dont believe me? Pick up a newspaper, read about the current GOP primary election in the US. This is perhaps the most "secularist" country in the entire world (hard argument to make but we can try). The point is, it is also one of the most staunchly religious. Over 200 years of "secularist agenda" has failed to diminish the impact of religion on american politics. In fact, it grows stronger every year. If you really wanted to make your religion stronger, you would realize that secularism is in fact the way to do it.

As a bit of an aside, Mr. Zaid Hamid should be disqualified from public speaking for many reasons, not the least of which being how he feels Allah has bestowed Pakistanis with a nuclear weapon, while attempting to make the argument that the west are the real evil doers for creating the same bomb. uhhhh....what now?

 

[Tasavur]

I dont know where you get again and again and again from. There are simple reasons why these people get voted. Lack of any other option is one of the main reasons. Now Inshallah PTI will get representation as there is a clear positive alternative.

Secondly and most importantly they get votes because of the feudal society where choudhrays and waderas literally treat their farmers as slaves and make them votee for the local representative. Dont go about throwing mud on the poor people who have to go through this.

As for individual reason:
Zardari - he has technically never run for anything. His party got votes on account of his dead wife. HE never got any votes

Sharif - Not from Punjab but PML-N has done work in that area so that could be another reason.

Altaf - Frankly if you take apart the party's militant wing, MQM is the best party out there and has delivered in Karachi whenever it has the chance. If I they dropped their violent ways I would vote for them over PTI as they back up their talk. I saw their work from 2002-2007 from my own eyes and positively affected many people's lives

I get again and again and again from the fact that this is the fifth time PML-N is ruling in Punjab, and the 3rd time that PPP is in the federal government. 'Lack of alternatives' is a silly excuse because for two of those election (97 and 2002) PTI was running.

PML-N has done peanuts in Punjab; they've developed Lahore, kudos to them, but Punjab consists of more than that.

MQM is a terrorist party; they have been declared by a Canadian Court as a terrorist organisation. Yet people will vote for them on an ethnic basis, same with ANP.

Point being, you can sit here and justify why these parties are in power, but it's the 70% of the 'real Pakistanis' who have been sitting on their backsides, watching Star Plus dramas and Bollywood, who love to talk but never vote, that are to blame.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yes he has so much intellect.. still waiting for pakistan to reach the moon, while they have a poverty and resource epedemic in the country lol...

Ofcourse i have the capability to understand him.. like i said before.. his view was my view when i was 16, a young and hot blooded patriotic australian born pakistani teenager.. but i grew up and gained intellect.. now im a man for humanity, not just or one nation and against another..

My comment about legalising prostitution was simply my opinion of what should happen.. not of what could happen in a muslim nation.. it is a very logical answer to the illegal mujra's where police come in and collect their weekly bribe and prostitutes pray to allah and then go about their daily job of selling themselves.

Only an ignorant and foolish Muslim could ever support the legalisation of prostitution in any circumstances as this goes against the basic princpiles of Islam.

This is enough to show such a person who doesn't understand the basics of Islam couldn't understand the complexes of world geo-politics.

 

[Imran_A]

Only an ignorant and foolish Muslim could ever support the legalisation of prostitution in any circumstances as this goes against the basic princpiles of Islam.

This is enough to show such a person who doesn't understand the basics of Islam couldn't understand the complexes of world geo-politics.

With all due respect I think you continue to miss the point. We can all agree that prostitution is bad. I dont want to speak for humzy but hopefully he'll jump in and also agree with this. Much like most other things, I think we are all on the same page. The question is, is 'government' the right tool to eradicate this social wrong?

So if someone expresses this sentiment, you must not immediately start believing that they are holding up neon signs next to their house in favor of prostitution. Also, to call them ignorant and foolish is great hubris on your part and a personal attack that is completely unnecessary in a reasoned, adult discussion on a very difficult and important social issue.

I think that as a self-professed non-ignorant and non-foolish muslim you must realize that questioning other people's religion at the drop of a hat is something muslims are not supposed to do. But then again, chest thumping is easier.

 

[KingKhanWC]

^ What do you mean we all agree? This is your third post on here and I have yet to read your views on this subject?

I'm sure the poster doesn't need a knight in shining armour to come to his/her rescue. If you have point you would like me to address just spit it out please.

 

[Imran_A]

I have no intention of rescuing humzy from anything, least of all a keyboard warrior. And when I said all I meant nobody here is defending prostitution. Anyway, I believe I made my point clear enough. If you couldnt follow I'm not sure if there's any other way I can put it.

 

[KingKhanWC]

^ You are boring me now but I've found your post so let's have some entertainmnment. btw it's idiotic to call someone a keyboard warrior when you yourself are behind a keyboard.

Here's an interesting piece you wrote.

As a bit of an aside, Mr. Zaid Hamid should be disqualified from public speaking for many reasons, not the least of which being how he feels Allah has bestowed Pakistanis with a nuclear weapon, while attempting to make the argument that the west are the real evil doers for creating the same bomb. uhhhh....what now?

Pakistan only went after the nuke because India obtained it first. It's a deterent which came with a lot of hardship when the US tried to stop this, so saying Allah has bestowed this is just recognising the difficulty of obtaining it. No other Muslim nation has this. The western policies could be classed as evil, they have nuked two cities, invaded numerious nations, cleansed various tribes/peoples, led covert wars throughout the world, put in puppet rulers and lastly but not least have been attacking Muslims and controlling their lands for a very long time not least by supporting what can be considered a crusader outpost in Palestine known as Israel.

Now you may have made imaginary friends after 3/4 posts but now please go ahead and address the points. It's only a discussion, no need to get all emotional.

 

[Imran_A]

Look KingKhan, I hope you can see that we are all on the same side here. I will not argue the points you have raised because I agree with them. Your point of view doesnt paint the entire picture because Iran, Syria, Egypt and others have made a lot of money (the governments) over the Palestinian issue and unfortunately nobody has the Palestinians best interest at heart. But you certainly will get no argument from me over the zionists or the misguided american foreign policy regarding Israel.

The point I was trying to make was that if giving us a nuke is Allah's will, you cannot be so naive as to think that giving everybody else a nuke before us was not. This is dangerous rhetoric and does no good to our country whatsoever.

Anyway, we are getting off topic. I should say that this is only my 4th post here and I am under no misguided notion that I have either friends or enemies here. I was merely trying to state that we are all Pakistanis and these are difficult times for us. We could do with a bit of unity and realization that we are all (whether die-hard-religious or "secularist progressive liberals") on the same side. It would be better for everyone if we didnt question each others' religion or our motives at the drop of a hat. We can disagree on many things, but lets not disagree on our patriotism.

 

[the Great Khan]

Its an interesting analysis how things are being debated in this thread. We are not debating whether Iqbal was a good man or not, we are debating whether he was the greatest ever or just very good. And the people who think he was the greatest thing to ever walk the face of the earth, feel those who think he was just a good poet are making a mockery of his entire life. And now they must stand up to protect him? Seriously? Is this what we have become?

wrong. we are debating whether it is right for those on the panel to denigrate him as "nothing special" and just "some poet". He wasnt just some poet but an inspirational thinker and one of the founding fathers of the nation we all call Pakistan. He was a visonary and a thinker who should not be held to denigration in the manner he was in this program.Yes we should stand up for what is right. By all means criticise but not for the sake of it, in this case to mock an individuals passion for the said subject.



Have we forgotten each and every single thing about our own prophet's life? There's a lot to learn from how he lived. He didnt care about how people treated him. Even those that mocked him to his face, he would just smile and walk away. You "Islamists" need to go back and actually learn a thing or two about Islam before you start your chest thumping sessions on an internet message board.

Unfortunatley yes. People couldnt give two hoots about the Prophet PBUH's life. especially some of the people in the panel above. The hypocrisy was so obvious. It actually amused me that we have mr drunk on live tv hassan nissar talking about Quraan and sunnah. Yes people should go back and learn a thing or two about Islam, for example dont eat the flesh of your brother for starters and dont slander without proof or reason!as they say in Punjabi "hoon Islam yaad aga hay?"


I've read a lot of negative posts about "secularists" and "liberals" on this thread. Sure, its easy to wave a Quran around and pretend to be a "good muslim" but its a lot harder to come up with actual solutions that make the lives of all muslims better and give us the internal financial strength to not have to bow down to the will of other countries. The "secularist agenda" is not an anti-religious one, this is a complete straw man. If you really thought about how it works, and what we are asking for, you would realize that we dont want to end religion. We dont want to diminish the impact of religion on Pakistan. All we are asking for is some moderation, to be able to get along with everyone.

the worst line of BS if Ive ever heard. This moderation line is the actual straw man. Islam is the path of moderation and if followed properly will lead to the "getting on with everyone". The secualrist agenda is anti religion. It cant be anything but. The hidden hate for Islam has a tendency to come out into the open at times hence exposing those that espuse this view. For example the constant need to portray Jinnah as some secualr demi god and denigrate Iqbal as a mere poet. There are numerous instances throughout where these so called secular liberals suddenly become defenders of Islam when it suits them and then denigrate it when it doesnt. I havent met a Pakistani secularist who is pro religion yet. I still await this miracle! ZH core point was simply ignored. Why do we still follow the law of the british raj?


You dont believe me? Pick up a newspaper, read about the current GOP primary election in the US. This is perhaps the most "secularist" country in the entire world (hard argument to make but we can try). The point is, it is also one of the most staunchly religious. Over 200 years of "secularist agenda" has failed to diminish the impact of religion on american politics. In fact, it grows stronger every year. If you really wanted to make your religion stronger, you would realize that secularism is in fact the way to do it.

their law is based on what? chrisitanity! what is our law based on? christianity!why? by the way Britain isnt secular. the US may be.



As a bit of an aside, Mr. Zaid Hamid should be disqualified from public speaking for many reasons, not the least of which being how he feels Allah has bestowed Pakistanis with a nuclear weapon, while attempting to make the argument that the west are the real evil doers for creating the same bomb. uhhhh....what now?

because for a country like ours to make a bomb was a miracle in itself hence the prevalence in wrapping the struggle for the bomb in such terms. We has no real business making one, we had no money to do it, no resources, hardly any expertise, and not much time. that is why he uses such terms and most of the time its common language amongst those of us who take Islam a bit more seriously than just a visit to the Eid gaa every year or Jummah once a week. We see it in the hatred in the secularists all the time. "why do you use arabic terms like alhumdullilah instead of allah ka shukr or jazakhallah khair instead of shukria? whats this arab worship blah blah blah. the best one i got was when I called an egyptian woman who got beaten up a sister and was lambasted for using a religious term to describe her rather than the more respectable "woman". what utter BS!!

 

[KingKhanWC]

Look KingKhan, I hope you can see that we are all on the same side here. I will not argue the points you have raised because I agree with them. Your point of view doesnt paint the entire picture because Iran, Syria, Egypt and others have made a lot of money (the governments) over the Palestinian issue and unfortunately nobody has the Palestinians best interest at heart. But you certainly will get no argument from me over the zionists or the misguided american foreign policy regarding Israel.

Agreed.

The point I was trying to make was that if giving us a nuke is Allah's will, you cannot be so naive as to think that giving everybody else a nuke before us was not. This is dangerous rhetoric and does no good to our country whatsoever.

I think he was just trying to point out the difficulties Pakistan faced getting the nuke and how other Muslim nations would also faced these difficulties while Israel and other western nations can obtain nukes at will.

Anyway, we are getting off topic. I should say that this is only my 4th post here and I am under no misguided notion that I have either friends or enemies here. I was merely trying to state that we are all Pakistanis and these are difficult times for us. We could do with a bit of unity and realization that we are all (whether die-hard-religious or "secularist progressive liberals") on the same side. It would be better for everyone if we didnt question each others' religion or our motives at the drop of a hat. We can disagree on many things, but lets not disagree on our patriotism.

Ok fine. I look forward to reading your thoughts in the future. You are right division is the tool of the enemy and it doesn't help those who have the same goal.

 

[ftbno1]

If nukes are only deterrent for you why dont your nation declare no first use policy like india has done.About west being evil and you being great.Saudi Arabia(the country with mecca) is great friend of west.No muslim country takes you seriously.It is a fact that we have more friends than you in the muslim world and that is the reason you are not able to internationalize Kashmir issue even in muslim worlds.You should grow up and understand that their is no muslim or secularist , no good or evil in diplomacy.Only intrest prevails.When your rulers were strong they also invaded other peaceful countries.So how can you blame west when they are in position of power.

 

[PakPrince]

I get again and again and again from the fact that this is the fifth time PML-N is ruling in Punjab, and the 3rd time that PPP is in the federal government. 'Lack of alternatives' is a silly excuse because for two of those election (97 and 2002) PTI was running.

PML-N has done peanuts in Punjab; they've developed Lahore, kudos to them, but Punjab consists of more than that.

MQM is a terrorist party; they have been declared by a Canadian Court as a terrorist organisation. Yet people will vote for them on an ethnic basis, same with ANP.

Point being, you can sit here and justify why these parties are in power, but it's the 70% of the 'real Pakistanis' who have been sitting on their backsides, watching Star Plus dramas and Bollywood, who love to talk but never vote, that are to blame.

maybe if you guys hadnt run away from the country at the first opportunity you could have had a positive impact

but as you guys ran after money, stop this preaching.

I dont give two hoots abt what canadian courts think

pti had non existent campains in 97 and 2002. if they had won then, then there would have been sth wrong

 

[humzy]

Only an ignorant and foolish Muslim could ever support the legalisation of prostitution in any circumstances as this goes against the basic princpiles of Islam.

This is enough to show such a person who doesn't understand the basics of Islam couldn't understand the complexes of world geo-politics.

The basic rules of Islam tell me that prostitution is haram and i should not take part in that.. And i would not as it goes against my moral fiber, however I am not here to ban everyone in the world from doing that as god is the ultimate judge.. Prostitution is the oldest trade known to man and is not going anywhere, banning it will not do anything as it will still be rampant in any muslim society.. Legalising it helps put in control measures..

If you step outside of your religious upbringing and look at it from a logical perspective its really simple..

 

[Tapori]

because for a country like ours to make a bomb was a miracle in itself hence the prevalence in wrapping the struggle for the bomb in such terms. We has no real business making one, we had no money to do it, no resources, hardly any expertise, and not much time. that is why he uses such terms and most of the time its common language amongst those of us who take Islam a bit more seriously than just a visit to the Eid gaa every year or Jummah once a week. We see it in the hatred in the secularists all the time. "why do you use arabic terms like alhumdullilah instead of allah ka shukr or jazakhallah khair instead of shukria? whats this arab worship blah blah blah. the best one i got was when I called an egyptian woman who got beaten up a sister and was lambasted for using a religious term to describe her rather than the more respectable "woman". what utter BS!!

You do know that the a majority of Muslims who don't reside in Pakistan couldn't give a paisa's worth of care about Pakistan having a Nuclear weapon.

Yes it's good Pakistan has nukes, but it's the fatuous "We had nukes for Islam" message which is hilariously revisionist and myopic; It was all down to military warfare and tactics and politics with a bit of good luck that the Dutch were a tad dozy, little to do with some predestined plan by Allah for Pakistan to have it as some Bastian of Pan-Nationalist Islamic identity...

 

[Tapori]

maybe if you guys hadnt run away from the country at the first opportunity you could have had a positive impact

but as you guys ran after money, stop this preaching.

I dont give two hoots abt what canadian courts think

pti had non existent campains in 97 and 2002. if they had won then, then there would have been sth wrong

Wow.

I'd put that down to ignorance.

Or worse, jealousy.

 

[the Great Khan]

You do know that the a majority of Muslims who don't reside in Pakistan couldn't give a paisa's worth of care about Pakistan having a Nuclear weapon.

Yes it's good Pakistan has nukes, but it's the fatuous "We had nukes for Islam" message which is hilariously revisionist and myopic; It was all down to military warfare and tactics and politics with a bit of good luck that the Dutch were a tad dozy, little to do with some predestined plan by Allah for Pakistan to have it as some Bastian of Pan-Nationalist Islamic identity...

so what if they dont care? thats not the point. as for pre-destination well it depends what you believe, as a Muslim we believe in it. So ZH using that language is normal, thats my point.

 

[Tapori]

so what if they dont care? thats not the point. as for pre-destination well it depends what you believe, as a Muslim we believe in it. So ZH using that language is normal, thats my point.

Exactly, you're so wrapped up in your own world you don't care what other Muslims think and can't see why that is an issue!

Well you can't claim to speak for all Muslims or define Pakistan's nuclear Arsenal as some divine defence of Islam, if the majority of Muslims couldn't care less about you!

Pre-Destination - I'm a Muslim too. It can be defined any number of ways. The great philosophers in Islam and beyond have debated this. There is no one Islamic definition due to their being no Centralised Church...

If ZH uses that language then he's a tool. That's mine and many others' opinion. By voicing this opinion we do not care any less than he does, nor are we ex-communicated from the faith of Islam.

 

[Garuda]

so what if they dont care? thats not the point. as for pre-destination well it depends what you believe, as a Muslim we believe in it. So ZH using that language is normal, thats my point.

So you believe Allah decided to give you a nuclear bomb (I mean to Pakistan) ?

 

[humzy]

Zaid Hamid will go on tv next and say, "Allah ne ye hum ko tawfa deeya hai" and point at a picture of Zardari

 

[Garuda]

Zaid Hamid will go on tv next and say, "Allah ne ye hum ko tawfa deeya hai" and point at a picture of Zardari

Actually he said in one show I remember.

He said something like this

"Allah ne yeh likh diya tha ke Pakistan ko nuclear arms milenge and bla bla".

Pata nahin kahan se woh padta hai yeh sab ? aur kisiko nahin milta padne ko.

Pakistan ko bane 60 saal hue hain but pehle se yeh likha hua tha :facepam:

 

[KingKhanWC]

If nukes are only deterrent for you why dont your nation declare no first use policy like india has done.About west being evil and you being great.Saudi Arabia(the country with mecca) is great friend of west.No muslim country takes you seriously.It is a fact that we have more friends than you in the muslim world and that is the reason you are not able to internationalize Kashmir issue even in muslim worlds.You should grow up and understand that their is no muslim or secularist , no good or evil in diplomacy.Only intrest prevails.When your rulers were strong they also invaded other peaceful countries.So how can you blame west when they are in position of power.

Nukes are only a deterrent if they are on the table. To say openly they are not on the table for first use is stupid as it weakens the deterrent. India after the Mumbai attacks shouted from the rooftops like Tarzan in the jungle but when it came to the crunch Hindustan lost it's biscuit and bottled out of 'surgical attacks' on Pakistan. Why because those days are gone. You don't mess with a nuclear armed nation, thankfully the Hindu's realised this.

The rest of your post is nonsense, Pakistan has plenty of influence with other Muslim nations like Turkey and Saudi Arabia and now growing with Iran which are possibly the other big Muslim nations. Kashmir will be free from Indian state terrorism, no occupation is forever.

 

[Garuda]

Nukes are only a deterrent if they are on the table. To say openly they are not on the table for first use is stupid as it weakens the deterrent. India after the Mumbai attacks shouted from the rooftops like Tarzan in the jungle but when it came to the crunch Hindustan lost it's biscuit and bottled out of 'surgical attacks' on Pakistan. Why because those days are gone. You don't mess with a nuclear armed nation, thankfully the Hindu's realised this.

The rest of your post is nonsense, Pakistan has plenty of influence with other Muslim nations like Turkey and Saudi Arabia and now growing with Iran which are possibly the other big Muslim nations. Kashmir will be free from Indian state terrorism, no occupation is forever.

I was not wrong about you.

 

[humzy]

Nukes are only a deterrent if they are on the table. To say openly they are not on the table for first use is stupid as it weakens the deterrent. India after the Mumbai attacks shouted from the rooftops like Tarzan in the jungle but when it came to the crunch Hindustan lost it's biscuit and bottled out of 'surgical attacks' on Pakistan. Why because those days are gone. You don't mess with a nuclear armed nation, thankfully the Hindu's realised this.

The rest of your post is nonsense, Pakistan has plenty of influence with other Muslim nations like Turkey and Saudi Arabia and now growing with Iran which are possibly the other big Muslim nations. Kashmir will be free from Indian state terrorism, no occupation is forever.

What can Pakistan do for Turkey for it to have influence on them??
Saudi Arabia simply looks at Pakistan as a slave labour force for them to use and discard.. Iran is only growing ties with Pakistan now because they are forced to, with all the sanctions and what not

 

[Garuda]

What can Pakistan do for Turkey for it to have influence on them??
Saudi Arabia simply looks at Pakistan as a slave labour force for them to use and discard.. Iran is only growing ties with Pakistan now because they are forced to, with all the sanctions and what not

Pakistan foreign minister will carry the nuclear bomb and keep it on the table.

 

[KingKhanWC]

What can Pakistan do for Turkey for it to have influence on them??
Saudi Arabia simply looks at Pakistan as a slave labour force for them to use and discard.. Iran is only growing ties with Pakistan now because they are forced to, with all the sanctions and what not

Have about you try to do some research. Pakistan and Turkey have close military strategic ties. Saudi looks to Pakistan for as an ally and a military ally if required. At least you accept Iran is growing ties with Pakistan and it's not only because Iran needs them but also because Pakistan is slowly going away from the US and moving towards to more regional allies.

 

[the Great Khan]

So you believe Allah decided to give you a nuclear bomb (I mean to Pakistan) ?

well as a Muslim I believe Allah swt gives us everything so yes. As a believeing Muslim we believe everything comes from Allah swt. Why is that hard to understand? its language that is common amongst believing Muslims. for example Allah ka shukr hay, alhumdullilah Allah is mulk ko bacha kay rakhay etc. Its common language! ZH is simply articulating the same!

 

[the Great Khan]

the problem with this debate was that ZH was conducting a purely theological and ideological argument while the rest were engaging in ZH bashing although Nissar did present a counter point to ZH's passion. The other two were just lightweights in the whole argument!

 

[Stewie]

I have been following this thread. I think we might be getting off track. So while we are at it, let me just add some light humor here. It is starting to sound to me like Zaid Hamid is the Pakistani version of Chuck Norris, Jack Bauer, the most interesting man in the universe, all rolled into one.

So it is not surprising he elegantly held off attempts at character assassination from the weird girlish sounding liberal dude and others during this debate.

You just dont mess with the Zaid. I dont know if you guys know this or not but when Graham Bell invented the phone, he realized he had three missed calls from Zaid who was probably calliing him to get his email address since Zaid invented the internet and email.

Google usually contact Zaid for information everytime someone uses them for searching the web.

 

[Stewie]

the problem with this debate was that ZH was conducting a purely theological and ideological argument while the rest were engaging in ZH bashing although Nissar did present a counter point to ZH's passion. The other two were just lightweights in the whole argument!

TGK, I understand what you are saying but I believe the purpose of the debate as confirmed by Kamran at the begining was to discuss why Pakistan has not progressed as was expected and what can be done about it. So while the first portion may have required a bit of inwards soul searching and theological debate, the second part demanded the discussion of a practical approach which I think they all failed to deliver.

We will forever be stuck playing the blame game and looking behind when we should all just simply say" We effed up.. lets move on and see what can be done to fix this"

Guys like Zaid Hamid fail to provide any productive or practical method of moving forward. They just want to go to war which is not the answer.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Nukes are only a deterrent if they are on the table. To say openly they are not on the table for first use is stupid as it weakens the deterrent. India after the Mumbai attacks shouted from the rooftops like Tarzan in the jungle but when it came to the crunch Hindustan lost it's biscuit and bottled out of 'surgical attacks' on Pakistan. Why because those days are gone. You don't mess with a nuclear armed nation, thankfully the Hindu's realised this.

The rest of your post is nonsense, Pakistan has plenty of influence with other Muslim nations like Turkey and Saudi Arabia and now growing with Iran which are possibly the other big Muslim nations. Kashmir will be free from Indian state terrorism, no occupation is forever.

India too has Nuclear weapons and can use them.its not that Pakistan only has them.A war mean destabilising a good economy,while Pakistan is already suffering from a war within India is comparatively much more stable as you can see.So not going to war was the right thing.i didnt hear a single govt minister saying we are going for a war.

Hindu's realised?India has more muslims than Pakistan,remember that.India is not identified by a single religion and is not a theocracy.

Influence with whom?

Saudi:When was the last time they helped you with money or anything?Did they stop giving India oil?Even in the 3 wars Saudi kept giving India oil even though it cost Pakistan half of its country.

Iran:India is the largest importer and buyer of Iranian oil.Its the 2nd largest investor in Iran.Its building railways Ports highways in Iran.Unlike Pakistan India hasnt been detered by US sanctions and stopped buying oil from Iran.Iran's involvement in Baluchistan is well known.So i doubt you have much influence with them.

What has KAshmir got to do with it?What is Pakistan's LEGAL claim over Kashmir,except some non existent Ummah which has no legal entity.

If i were you i would worry about Baluchistan and not Kashmir.

 

[the Great Khan]

TGK, I understand what you are saying but I believe the purpose of the debate as confirmed by Kamran at the begining was to discuss why Pakistan has not progressed as was expected and what can be done about it. So while the first portion may have required a bit of inwards soul searching and theological debate, the second part demanded the discussion of a practical approach which I think they all failed to deliver.

We will forever be stuck playing the blame game and looking behind when we should all just simply say" We effed up.. lets move on and see what can be done to fix this"

Guys like Zaid Hamid fail to provide any productive or practical method of moving forward. They just want to go to war which is not the answer.

I agree and disagree. i believe ZH's ideology or practicalies in solving whatever problems, is to go back to what iqbal and jinnah wanted and the principles of the founding of the nation, then move forward. HN's philosophy is to elearn from teh west, not lambast them, be realisitc and learn from them then move ahead. the two views are not that far from each other. The truth is to move ahead we should combine the two and HN has rightly pointed out that Imran khan and the PTI are trying to do so hence his hope they come to power. So I dont believe their positions are that far off, their method of appealing to the viewer are different. Some prefer the inner tiger stuff of ZH while others prefer the self evaluation and realism of HN. I dont mind either of them articulating these views. It is good to do so, but what I resent is denigration and personal attacks as seen on this program which should not be part of a discussion such as this. also HN's grasp of history hleaves much to be desired.

 

[azhar329]

What has KAshmir got to do with it?What is Pakistan's LEGAL claim over Kashmir,except some non existent Ummah which has no legal entity.

Kashmir is an ISLAMIC issue and insha'Allah the kashmiris will obtain freedom; the muslim ummah does exist regardless of the situation and oppression the muslims are currently experiencing.

 

[the Great Khan]

India too has Nuclear weapons and can use them.its not that Pakistan only has them.A war mean destabilising a good economy,while Pakistan is already suffering from a war within India is comparatively much more stable as you can see.So not going to war was the right thing.i didnt hear a single govt minister saying we are going for a war.

Hindu's realised?India has more muslims than Pakistan,remember that.India is not identified by a single religion and is not a theocracy.

Influence with whom?

Saudi:When was the last time they helped you with money or anything?Did they stop giving India oil?Even in the 3 wars Saudi kept giving India oil even though it cost Pakistan half of its country.

Iran:India is the largest importer and buyer of Iranian oil.Its the 2nd largest investor in Iran.Its building railways Ports highways in Iran.Unlike Pakistan India hasnt been detered by US sanctions and stopped buying oil from Iran.Iran's involvement in Baluchistan is well known.So i doubt you have much influence with them.

What has KAshmir got to do with it?What is Pakistan's LEGAL claim over Kashmir,except some non existent Ummah which has no legal entity.

If i were you i would worry about Baluchistan and not Kashmir.

bluster and arrogance, traits common to the arrogant Indian. I would advise you to be humble.

just to correct you, you dont have more Muslims than us anymore and the state they are in is pathetic compared to Pakistan so lets get that one out of the way.

as for influence we have plenty, our geopolitical location is more than enough, coupled with our proximity to central asia and potential to exploit the gateway to the middle east and china is enough.

all it will take is some sound eladership and pakistan will move ahead very quickly voer a short period of time as it has the ingredients of fast success. the rate of literacy is increasing, the proliferation of modern communciations is also increasing, the population is young and the country is fodd safe as well as resource rich to an extent! so plz continue to underestimate us. we like it that way.

 

[Stewie]

India too has Nuclear weapons and can use them.its not that Pakistan only has them.A war mean destabilising a good economy,while Pakistan is already suffering from a war within India is comparatively much more stable as you can see.So not going to war was the right thing.i didnt hear a single govt minister saying we are going for a war.

Hindu's realised?India has more muslims than Pakistan,remember that.India is not identified by a single religion and is not a theocracy.

Influence with whom?

Saudi:When was the last time they helped you with money or anything?Did they stop giving India oil?Even in the 3 wars Saudi kept giving India oil even though it cost Pakistan half of its country.

Iran:India is the largest importer and buyer of Iranian oil.Its the 2nd largest investor in Iran.Its building railways Ports highways in Iran.Unlike Pakistan India hasnt been detered by US sanctions and stopped buying oil from Iran.Iran's involvement in Baluchistan is well known.So i doubt you have much influence with them.

What has KAshmir got to do with it?What is Pakistan's LEGAL claim over Kashmir,except some non existent Ummah which has no legal entity.

If i were you i would worry about Baluchistan and not Kashmir.

I think you are confused about the meaning of theocracy (i dont mean to imply that India is a theocratic mode of governance) but I am just not sure if you truly understand the word.

Based on the conditions surrounding the division of the subcontinent, there was supposed to be a plebiscite in Kashmir which was never held in due time. That and the fact Kashmir had more muslims there than Hindus at that time, gave Pakistan enough reason to lay claim to it.

The modern day situation is different however but you will be naive to claim that injustice was not done there.

 

[Stewie]

I agree and disagree. i believe ZH's ideology or practicalies in solving whatever problems, is to go back to what iqbal and jinnah wanted and the principles of the founding of the nation, then move forward. HN's philosophy is to elearn from teh west, not lambast them, be realisitc and learn from them then move ahead. the two views are not that far from each other. The truth is to move ahead we should combine the two and HN has rightly pointed out that Imran khan and the PTI are trying to do so hence his hope they come to power. So I dont believe their positions are that far off, their method of appealing to the viewer are different. Some prefer the inner tiger stuff of ZH while others prefer the self evaluation and realism of HN. I dont mind either of them articulating these views. It is good to do so, but what I resent is denigration and personal attacks as seen on this program which should not be part of a discussion such as this. also HN's grasp of history hleaves much to be desired.

I agree with your post but I dont think I will agree with your comments about Zaid Hamid. Any man who promises you on public TV Pakistan will reach the moon in 5 years time (that claim was made a few years back by the way) to me is an idiot and has lost all credibility.

I also think both him and NH are aadhey pehelwan. They are making some utterly incomprehensible and illogical and unfair statements while some of what they say does ring true.

My thoughts are 1) ZH should not have been put through such character assassination on TV like that 2) NH and others should have shown more respect towards Allam Iqbal and 3) ZH should stop with the Proud Muslim Ummah angle and concentrate more on Pakistan specific issues and how to fix them if he claims to be such a patriot.

 

[Tasavur]

maybe if you guys hadnt run away from the country at the first opportunity you could have had a positive impact

but as you guys ran after money, stop this preaching.

I dont give two hoots abt what canadian courts think

pti had non existent campains in 97 and 2002. if they had won then, then there would have been sth wrong

Who do Pakistani ex-pats consist of:
- Azad Kashmiris who were displaced due to the building of Mangla Dam and offered citizenship by the British;
- People who are facing threats to their life in Pakistan (know several such families facing threats from batta-khors);
- People seeking medical treatment that Pakistani hospitals don't offer;
- People seeking education that Pakistani universities don't offer;
- People seeking a better life.

How you've reduced this heterogeneity to a simple (and rather dumb) belief that we all "ran after money" is beyond me. Given the opportunity, half of Pakistan's population would get up and leave. If things were to improve vis a vis the judicial system, corruption, bribery and the security situation, many of these ex-pats would come back home. It's a simple situation.

Anyhow, Altaf Hussein left Pakistan too and yet he leads MQM, a party that 'real Pakistanis' vote for. Nawaz Sharif, Shahbaz Sharif and BB spent many years of their lives abroad, yet 'real Pakistanis' venerate these individuals too. Bilawal Bhutto grew up abroad and was educated abroad and for all intents and purposes will spend the majority of his life abroad, and yet 'real Pakistanis' will not only venerate him, they will also vote for him whenever he stands.

Cut the double-standards. Your leadership is either raised abroad or spends most of its time there.

Regards Canadian Courts, do you deny that MQM is a terrorist organisation that uses violence, intimdation and armed gangs to achieve many of its aims?

Finally, you've very conveniently side-tracked the conversation. The conversation was about the voting record of 'real Pakistanis' (according to you); you can deny it however much you want to, but PTI was a viable alternative in 1997 and 2002. Don't go down the whole 'media visibility' route. It's degrading to the very people you're trying to defend to suggest that they need something presented to them on a plate to vote for them. Fact remains that the vast majority of these 'real Pakistanis' don't even vote.

You have absolutely no leg to stand on to suggest that these people are somehow superior to the ones working abroad and sending their hard-earned money back home.

 

[Garuda]

well as a Muslim I believe Allah swt gives us everything so yes. As a believeing Muslim we believe everything comes from Allah swt. Why is that hard to understand? its language that is common amongst believing Muslims. for example Allah ka shukr hay, alhumdullilah Allah is mulk ko bacha kay rakhay etc. Its common language! ZH is simply articulating the same!

Why didn't he give it to Afghans or Palestines?

Out of all the problem Pakistan and other other muslim countries facing, he prefered to solve it by giving a nuclear bomb ?

I know its a believe but I feel sometimes its better to get a better believe to help next generation. Do you really want your kids to know that Allah blessed them with a nuclear bomb?

 

[Garuda]

the problem with this debate was that ZH was conducting a purely theological and ideological argument while the rest were engaging in ZH bashing although Nissar did present a counter point to ZH's passion. The other two were just lightweights in the whole argument!

I agree with you.

Both were looking at it from very different spheres.

ZH was completely irrational as usual and others wanted to fit him into rational world where it sounded joke to them.

But anyway, in my view, as a faith ZH may be close tho the religion than others but he what he is preaching is dangerous.

 

[KingKhanWC]

India too has Nuclear weapons and can use them.its not that Pakistan only has them.A war mean destabilising a good economy,while Pakistan is already suffering from a war within India is comparatively much more stable as you can see.So not going to war was the right thing.i didnt hear a single govt minister saying we are going for a war.

It was India who threatned to attack Pakistan (08)with 'surgical strikes' which would have been an act of war. Pakistan didn't threaten India at all. When you have a nation threatning war then you use all your military might as a deterrent including nuclear weapons, basic stuff really. As for your claim India being stable, a war with Pakistan would be more of a disastour for India when Pakistan has less to lose.

Hindu's realised?India has more muslims than Pakistan,remember that.India is not identified by a single religion and is not a theocracy.

It's a majority Hindu nation, nothing wrong with classifying it as a Hindu nation.

Influence with whom?

Saudi:When was the last time they helped you with money or anything?Did they stop giving India oil?Even in the 3 wars Saudi kept giving India oil even though it cost Pakistan half of its country.

Iran:India is the largest importer and buyer of Iranian oil.Its the 2nd largest investor in Iran.Its building railways Ports highways in Iran.Unlike Pakistan India hasnt been detered by US sanctions and stopped buying oil from Iran.Iran's involvement in Baluchistan is well known.So i doubt you have much influence with them.

Business deals don't go above religous connections. If security is at risk Saudi, Turkey and other Muslim nations will seek alliance with Pakistan not India.

What has KAshmir got to do with it?What is Pakistan's LEGAL claim over Kashmir,except some non existent Ummah which has no legal entity.

If i were you i would worry about Baluchistan and not Kashmir.

Kashmir was majority Muslim and should have been part of Paksitan. However we just want them to have rights and stop being raped and murdered now. Indian state terrorism won't be forgotten.

Balochistan is part of Pakistan that's why you don't see Pak soldiers raping women there which is what Indian Hindu soldiers are doing in Kashmir.

 

[Garuda]

Kashmir was majority Muslim and should have been part of Paksitan. However we just want them to have rights and stop being raped and murdered now. Indian state terrorism won't be forgotten.

So you do not want it to be part of Pakistan anymore?

 

[KingKhanWC]

So you do not want it to be part of Pakistan anymore?

It's their choice, independance, Pakistan or India. It should have been part of Pakistan at partition and I have never suggested it should be now.

 

[Garuda]

It's their choice, independance, Pakistan or India. It should have been part of Pakistan at partition and I have never suggested it should be now.

Leave it to them and India to decide then.

 

[Statsman]

Nukes are only a deterrent if they are on the table. To say openly they are not on the table for first use is stupid as it weakens the deterrent. India after the Mumbai attacks shouted from the rooftops like Tarzan in the jungle but when it came to the crunch Hindustan lost it's biscuit and bottled out of 'surgical attacks' on Pakistan. Why because those days are gone. You don't mess with a nuclear armed nation, thankfully the Hindu's realised this.

The rest of your post is nonsense, Pakistan has plenty of influence with other Muslim nations like Turkey and Saudi Arabia and now growing with Iran which are possibly the other big Muslim nations. Kashmir will be free from Indian state terrorism, no occupation is forever.

Allah(swt) gave nuclear bombs to the Hindus as well!

I like that!!

 

[Garuda]

Allah(swt) gave nuclear bombs to the Hindus as well!

I like that!!

And pehle diya.

Anyway, ignore his comments about hindus this and that.

 

[bmwduran]

Any Indians who are favoring Hasan Nisar, their opinion would nto count, because they would like someone to bash Pakistan, just like someone from India who bashes India would be my friend.

 

[Garuda]

Any Indians who are favoring Hasan Nisar, their opinion would nto count, because they would like someone to bash Pakistan, just like someone from India who bashes India would be my friend.

Fatwa dediya kya?

Darr gaya mein tho. Hasan Nisar is right. Aaj kal gali gali mein fatwa baant te hain.

 

[Statsman]

And pehle diya.

And more than 70,000 to Amreeka!!!

Anyway, ignore his comments about hindus this and that.

Yeah

 

[azhar329]

Leave it to them and India to decide then.

This clearly illustrates your inability to comprehend the complete scenario relating to kashmir.

 

[nish_mate]

Regarding Kashmir India ought to go the China way and as we know our lovely friends the Pakistanis love all things Chinese

 

[Garuda]

This clearly illustrates your inability to comprehend the complete scenario relating to kashmir.

Well, the answer was specific to the post where he said Pakistan doesn't want Kashmir now.

So instead of 3 side, it is better for 2 side to discuss the issue as Pakistan has no stake.

Can u explain what is wrong in it if India and Kashmir are the parties which discuss the issue keeping Pakistan out in this scenario?

 

[bmwduran]

Well, the answer was specific to the post where he said Pakistan doesn't want Kashmir now.

So instead of 3 side, it is better for 2 side to discuss the issue as Pakistan has no stake.

Can u explain what is wrong in it if India and Kashmir are the parties which discuss the issue keeping Pakistan out in this scenario?

Kashmir was awarded to Pakistan firt, later to move it to India. Pakistan is a party to this issue,

 

[azhar329]

@garuda: So nobody should intervene, its between the indian occupiers and the kashmiris, let the occupation, oppression and murder continue via the indian thugs; you agree with that do you ?

They have been occupied for more than 60 years, what makes you think that the occupiers are genuinely interested in dealing with their crimes.

 

[Garuda]

Kashmir was awarded to Pakistan firt, later to move it to India. Pakistan is a party to this issue,

Who awarded Kashmir to Pakistan first?

 

[Garuda]

@garuda: So nobody should intervene, its between the indian occupiers and the kashmiris, let the occupation, oppression and murder continue via the indian thugs; you agree with that do you ?

They have been occupied for more than 60 years, what makes you think that the occupiers are genuinely interested in dealing with their crimes.

First answer my question. Why can't those two discuss their problem without Pakistan on table ?

If you have to intervene, why don't you intervene in tibet too?

 

[azhar329]

Why don't you intervene in tibet?

Youre not answering the question.

 

[Garuda]

Youre not answering the question.

If problem is between A and B then why can't A and B discuss between themselves ?

Simple question I had asked and you dodged that first.

 

[azhar329]

If problem is between A and B then why can't A and B discuss between themselves ?

Simple question I had asked and you dodged that first.

It seems you are suffering from selective amnesia when it relates to the occupation of kashmir.

 

[Garuda]

It seems you are suffering from selective amnesia when it relates to the occupation of kashmir.

Again, didn't answer the question.

You started replying my post on a topic where I relied to KKWC. As per him Pakistan doesn't want Kashmir now.

So first answer me why Pakistan be in the table for discussion ?

 

[azhar329]

So first answer me why Pakistan be in the table for discussion ?

The fact that you ask this question (if youre serious) is mind boggling; This could have easily been asked from a child in primary school.