Aakash Chopra questions value of runs/wickets against Zim & weak teams in comparison to strong teams

[Stewie]

You do realize your guy put in the first goal posts, right? So why can’t I put mine a little differently just because the end result for both sides is the same.. questioning the legality of the goal scored!!

I guess what I am trying to say is it’s a matter of perspective. You are looking at it in a way that makes Pakistan look bad. I am looking at it in a way it makes India look bad.. if the idea is to make others look bad, you can always find a way. A third person might be not even be trying to look at any such weird angles and everything will look normal to him.

Hope that helped convey our sentiment in this regard

 

[BlackShadow]

Why don’t you guys prove that India always plays third or second stringers against minnows? I would like to know how many players have debuted for India in such games? Keep in mind india has an established batting order with dhawan, Sharma, Kohli, rahane, etc. Pakistan does not. If India rests its top batsmen who have so many games under their belt it makes sense. It doesn’t for Pakistan. The players need experience. Whether it’s poor teams or not is irrelevant.

But I would still like to see indian squads against poorer opposition in recent times.

Akash's tweet asks a simple question. Are runs scored or wickets taken against minnows really of same value? The question is important because today we have sides like Afganistan and Ireland playing Test Cricket.

Let's assume that India plays a 5 Test series against Ireland and Dhawan literally demolishes every record Bradman held, then would it be worth the same? If your answer is no, then why disagree with Akash here?

 

[The_Odd_One]

Which is all true, Fakhar is an exciting talent indeed. But you need to stop looking at Akash's tweet from a jazbaati perspective. No one can take away Fakhar's worthy performances, he smashed India in CT final and we respect that.

Akash's point here is something totally different. He sees such long series against minnows as a joke and refuse to recognise world records against them. Sounds fair.

It was just a 5 match ODI series. As I said earlier, who cares who reaches to 1000 runs first. That's an insignificant record.

What is the solution? Revoke membership of minnow teams or do not record runs scored or wickets taken against them?

 

[last_knight]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The state of Zimbabwe cricket is, once again, forcing us to ask the question--why and how runs/wickets against seriously weak teams are given equal weightage as International runs/wickets vs must stronger teams?? Shouldn't there be a system to differentiate both...</p>— Aakash Chopra (@cricketaakash) <a href="https://twitter.com/cricketaakash/status/1020979203301404672?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 22, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

For the sake of improvement wrt Zim and "minnows" , it's better to lose against full strength teams as compared to drawing/winning against a depleted squad of stronger teams.

Sending depleted teams to play against minnows should be discouraged.

 

[Stewie]

Akash's tweet asks a simple question. Are runs scored or wickets taken against minnows really of same value? The question is important because today we have sides like Afganistan and Ireland playing Test Cricket.

Let's assume that India plays a 5 Test series against Ireland and Dhawan literally demolishes every record Bradman held, then would it be worth the same? If your answer is no, then why disagree with Akash here?

It’s quite irrelevant so why even raise that question. You give them full member status and they are a test nation and granted that status for a reason that they are good enough for it. Who are you and I to judge them?

This judgmental attitude is where the problem exists. I am not going to question the “value” of any runs scored it wickets taken against Ireland or Afghanistan, because it is condescending and insulting. If you want to have a stick up attitude about this stuff well keep it to yourself or those who like that sort of stuff


When I get a stiff one, I keep it in my pants and don’t go around showing it to every one. Chopra should have been more responsible with his journalism.

 

[BlackShadow]

It was just a 5 match ODI series. As I said earlier, who cares who reaches to 1000 runs first. That's an insignificant record.

What is the solution? Revoke membership of minnow teams or do not record runs scored or wickets taken against them?

I have always been very consistent with my views on this for a long time here. Sides that are not international quality have no business playing international Cricket. Rashid Khan's fastest 100 ODI wickets record is a joke, and sadly Test Cricket will also see age old records being broken consistently in longer series against Ireland/Afganistan.

 

[Stewie]

I have always been very consistent with my views on this for a long time here. Sides that are not international quality have no business playing international Cricket. Rashid Khan's fastest 100 ODI wickets record is a joke, and sadly Test Cricket will also see age old records being broken consistently in longer series against Ireland/Afganistan.

If it’s for the overall betterment and globalization of the game, so be it.. besides your board has the most clout anyway. This would not have been possible without their support.


I would have preferred a division structure in test cricket with a FTP enforced by ICC so India has to fulfill their obligations to play Pakistan away.

 

[The_Odd_One]

I have always been very consistent with my views on this for a long time here. Sides that are not international quality have no business playing international Cricket. Rashid Khan's fastest 100 ODI wickets record is a joke, and sadly Test Cricket will also see age old records being broken consistently in longer series against Ireland/Afganistan.

Ok, I respect that. However, do you really think anybody will make an assumption that Fakhar is as good as Viv based on this record or that Rashid is better than Saqlain?

 

[Itachi]

I guess what I am trying to say is it’s a matter of perspective. You are looking at it in a way that makes Pakistan look bad. I am looking at it in a way it makes India look bad.. if the idea is to make others look bad, you can always find a way. A third person might be not even be trying to look at any such weird angles and everything will look normal to him.

Hope that helped convey our sentiment in this regard

There's also a third perspective.

Without blaming the players, but blaming the system.

It has come to a point where top teams have moved forward so much that the level of difference between top teams and minnow is greater than there ever was.

India, aus, England don't play against minnow because it doesn't attract money.

Pakistan HAS to play against them because weak incompetence PCB failed to make a proper schedule. If there were other options where money was there, trust me, PCB would have taken it.

The_Odd_One has asked a very valid question.

What is the solution?

I think it's time to rethink about the test status, and odi status of many minnows and create a two tier system.

Let's say 8+8.

Bottom two will goto division 2 and top 2 will come to division 1.

But both the division should be isolated.

 

[Stewie]

There's also a third perspective.

Without blaming the players, but blaming the system.

It has come to a point where top teams have moved forward so much that the level of difference between top teams and minnow is greater than there ever was.

India, aus, England don't play against minnow because it doesn't attract money.

Pakistan HAS to play against them because weak incompetence PCB failed to make a proper schedule. If there were other options where money was there, trust me, PCB would have taken it.

The_Odd_One has asked a very valid question.

What is the solution?

I think it's time to rethink about the test status, and odi status of many minnows and create a two tier system.

Let's say 8+8.

Bottom two will goto division 2 and top 2 will come to division 1.

But both the division should be isolated.

Very high and might of some people. I have a better suggestion. Why not introduce a proper FTP with enforcement from ICC where all full nation members are obligated to play the other side on Home and away basis and not cherry pick based on what gets the most ratings or largest amount of tv cash...

How about that one while we are trying to recover from our aching hearts over the sad state of some of the weaker nations in the world? After all the only way they can improve is through exposure, wouldn’t you say?

 

[Stewie]

Pose financial penalties on those who renege on their obligations to offset losses suffered by the country that is wronged..

You see what I did there?? Wonderful power of the personal perspective!

 

[Itachi]

Very high and might of some people. I have a better suggestion. Why not introduce a proper FTP with enforcement from ICC where all full nation members are obligated to play the other side on Home and away basis and not cherry pick based on what gets the most ratings or largest amount of tv cash...

How about that one while we are trying to recover from our aching hearts over the sad state of some of the weaker nations in the world? After all the only way they can improve is through exposure, wouldn’t you say?

How does this solve the problem in hand? You are putting emotions into logic.

 

[Stewie]

How does this solve the problem in hand? You are putting emotions into logic.

How’s that?
I think it’s perfectly logical. Let me explain:

What will improve the current situation of some of the weaker nations? Ask yourself that question..

Exposure to stronger teams.. surely..
Perhaps more financial assistance that will also come from regular tours by stronger cricketing nation? Absolutely!

What is the most common gripe of associate nations? Ireland, Scotland and Holland have made it clear several times.. MORE EXPOSURE! More tours.. more games..



So you see whether you do a single tier or double tier test cricket at the end of the day the improvement and fair treatment of all nations go hand in hand.

You can’t make it an oligarchy with only three or four teams playing each other and only their stats mattering the most. We all have to start some where.

 

[Monsee]

Aakash Chopra is right. Unfortunately only with Pakistan you'll find they would put out a full strength side against such a poor side.

It was a great chance to test bench strength with the likes of Sahibzada, Talat, Shaheen (who should be in the first XI) and etc particularly with whoever our second choice of wicket keeper is. A real waste of a series.

Barring NZ, Pakistan of late in LOIs has only been playing minnows (against b and c grade teams) and it's getting ridiculous now to say the least.

One problem with this silly line of thinking: Top Zimbabwe players backed out very close to the start of the series, some injured as well (I think)...what was PCB to do when their senior team rarely gets any chance to play with any/other teams (look at Pak calendar vs other teams to see how often we play anyone besides Lanka), deny them any chance of some practice but switching to a Pak a team or something within a few days of the start of the series?

All this just so that it pleases folks like you who say Pak people are obsessed with everything India yet you guys visit an Pak formn and criticize anything Pak team does, period!

 

[Monsee]

It would be relevant to the thread if you accuse some Indian player of minnow bashing, something that hasn't been done yet.

Btw, records scored against club level sides have always been looked down upon, so nothing new here. Akash's suggestion is spot on. ICC really should look at limiting matches certain sides play against minnows, because all this really is getting ridiculous.

I concur and they should also make some 'Hypocrite' sides to follow on their promises as well...also not blackmail the whole world community for some more money when they (according to their own fans/management etc.) have tons of money to burn!

 

[Stewie]

I concur and they should also make some 'Hypocrite' sides to follow on their promises as well...also not blackmail the whole world community for some more money when they (according to their own fans/management etc.) have tons of money to burn!

Lol.. don’t be emotional yaar, use logic.. logic that sits well with our neighbors. Double standards and hypocrisy are all kosher as long as The Indian idiot is defended.

 

[Monsee]

Lol.. don’t be emotional yaar, use logic.. logic that sits well with our neighbors. Double standards and hypocrisy are all kosher as long as The Indian idiot is defended.

They think everyone can be easily manipulated by their 'brilliant' ideas which only serve their own purposes (when it suits them)...hand over the losses you caused to PCB, follow on the rest of the tours and only then you get the right to criticize Pak team for playing minnows.

If Aus/India/SA/NZ (England are just a little better) are not playing us regularly and are busy playing India because of their cash needs, who the heck are Pak able to play especially if that is what was proposed in the FTP anyway? Maybe Pak should invite teams from mars, Jupitor etc.

 

[topspin]

One problem with this silly line of thinking: Top Zimbabwe players backed out very close to the start of the series, some injured as well (I think)...what was PCB to do when their senior team rarely gets any chance to play with any/other teams (look at Pak calendar vs other teams to see how often we play anyone besides Lanka), deny them any chance of some practice but switching to a Pak a team or something within a few days of the start of the series?

All this just so that it pleases folks like you who say Pak people are obsessed with everything India yet you guys visit an Pak formn and criticize anything Pak team does, period!

I'm an avid Pakistan fan just not part of the hype brigade who goes over the moon over wins against World XI, SL + WI + Zimbabwe C teams and etc.

Name me one of the top 6 ODI sides (besides Pakistan) that not only would play its full strength against Zimbabwe, SL + WI B teams but in every single game. As harsh as it may sound this is small team mentality.

Now if we want to talk about big team mentality - India playing their second team (barring a couple of players) in the tri series in Bangladesh and winning it but that outcome doesn't necessarily really matter in such a series, what does matter is that they've tried and tested new blood in the side, so when a senior player or say someone is dropped the transition for these players becomes easier. Big team mentality thinks far ahead and that's one of the reasons why we're behind the likes Aus, NZ, India, England and etc in ODIs.

What next? Organise a series against Nepal and play the same XI come out with a whitewash and glorify our nonsensical achievements on PP.

 

[zulfiqar]

To start with, I'm not sure what Chopra is referring to when he says "weight" : i.e. for player rankings? for player statistics?

Most statgurus and authors do in fact offer filtered stats where performances against minnows are taken out. If Chopra is saying that they should be removed altogether from the overall aggregate of international stats then there is a huge problem and there simply is no precedent for this across most systems I can think of. The point of international statistics is to show how a person has fared against other international opponents, nothing more. To know a player's true worth, you have to look beyond just statistics - this will always be the case. As far as player rankings go, we have the same problem: Is playing against an opposition without their best bowling attack the same as playing against that team with their best? How will a system differentiate? Certainly for annual awards these things would be considered.

So the TLDR is that the true measure of a player will always require an analysis just beyond their aggregate statistics, and there is not an ounce of merit in removing performances against minnows.

 

[Titan24]

To start with, I'm not sure what Chopra is referring to when he says "weight" : i.e. for player rankings? for player statistics?

Most statgurus and authors do in fact offer filtered stats where performances against minnows are taken out. If Chopra is saying that they should be removed altogether from the overall aggregate of international stats then there is a huge problem and there simply is no precedent for this across most systems I can think of. The point of international statistics is to show how a person has fared against other international opponents, nothing more. To know a player's true worth, you have to look beyond just statistics - this will always be the case. As far as player rankings go, we have the same problem: Is playing against an opposition without their best bowling attack the same as playing against that team with their best? How will a system differentiate? Certainly for annual awards these things would be considered.

So the TLDR is that the true measure of a player will always require an analysis just beyond their aggregate statistics, and there is not an ounce of merit in removing performances against minnows.

Exactly, they will have to alter all the records starting from 90s 80s against minnows or poor oppositions.

 

[Titan24]

One day it will be like "Fakhar scoring 6 sixes to a spinner"

and Akash Chopra or Sehwag tweeting will these 6s against a poor bowler count?

"Hassan Ali getting the wicket of Dhoni". Will this be counted as wicket of Dhoni as he is in the evening of his career.

"Imam scoring a century against Bangladesh or Afghanistan" will these runs count as they are against a poor team.

"Babar scoring a century against India" will these runs count as one of our Phaaaaaaast bowlers are missing.

Lol. Thats some crazy level stupidness from so called Indian experts.

 

[Titan24]

I wonder if Akash Chopra would have tweeted same thing if Pakistan wasnt breaking that many records. I think not. Akash himself wasnt able to score a century in 10 tests so its understandable where its coming from.

 

[Stewie]

I'm an avid Pakistan fan just not part of the hype brigade who goes over the moon over wins against World XI, SL + WI + Zimbabwe C teams and etc.

Name me one of the top 6 ODI sides (besides Pakistan) that not only would play its full strength against Zimbabwe, SL + WI B teams but in every single game. As harsh as it may sound this is small team mentality.

Now if we want to talk about big team mentality - India playing their second team (barring a couple of players) in the tri series in Bangladesh and winning it but that outcome doesn't necessarily really matter in such a series, what does matter is that they've tried and tested new blood in the side, so when a senior player or say someone is dropped the transition for these players becomes easier. Big team mentality thinks far ahead and that's one of the reasons why we're behind the likes Aus, NZ, India, England and etc in ODIs.

What next? Organise a series against Nepal and play the same XI come out with a whitewash and glorify our nonsensical achievements on PP.

I agree with some of what you have said but the hype brigade is not in question here but AC’a comments are. Personally I am not reading too much into these results because I know how bad the opposition was. In fact, you might notice that even though Imam scores two hundreds, most here do not hold a very high opinion of him. That example right there should say a lot about how we felt the end result of the ODI series. I also agree with trying other players, I don’t know what Mickey Arthur was thinking.. the only explanation for that I can think of is that some of these players are fairly new (imam, Saif, shinwari) or making a comeback (babar, Yasir shah, junaid)..

You also have to keep in mind Pakistan doesn’t get that much cricket as other top nations in the world. So our first inclInation is to give our first choice guys as much match time as possible. Just to put matters in perspective, based on the ranking cycle, for the latest ranking cycle England which is #1 ODI at the moment has played 51 matches compared to Pakistan (37) ..

So you can appreciate the dilemma our team faces. It’s easy for others to sit and moan about the quality of opposition and whatnot but let’s face it: All full nation members are not treated equally in world cricket. There are several other factors at play here that sometimes determine a Cricket Boards actions and policies.

 

[topspin]

I agree with some of what you have said but the hype brigade is not in question here but AC’a comments are. Personally I am not reading too much into these results because I know how bad the opposition was. In fact, you might notice that even though Imam scores two hundreds, most here do not hold a very high opinion of him. That example right there should say a lot about how we felt the end result of the ODI series. I also agree with trying other players, I don’t know what Mickey Arthur was thinking.. the only explanation for that I can think of is that some of these players are fairly new (imam, Saif, shinwari) or making a comeback (babar, Yasir shah, junaid)..

You also have to keep in mind Pakistan doesn’t get that much cricket as other top nations in the world. So our first inclInation is to give our first choice guys as much match time as possible. Just to put matters in perspective, based on the ranking cycle, for the latest ranking cycle England which is #1 ODI at the moment has played 51 matches compared to Pakistan (37) ..

So you can appreciate the dilemma our team faces. It’s easy for others to sit and moan about the quality of opposition and whatnot but let’s face it: All full nation members are not treated equally in world cricket. There are several other factors at play here that sometimes determine a Cricket Boards actions and policies.

I appreciate fully Pakistan doesn't get enough cricket and have been very well aware for several years however I say again it's not about building a team, it's about building a squad and reinforcing it's depth and giving them the experience, so that they're accustomed to coming in to the squad when required.

We have a World Cup next year, the first team players will not improve even one bit playing against this side regardless of the "alien conditions" - as one of the lame excuses I've read today.

I do take your point though and it's such a shame for the inequality between the full members.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Akash's tweet asks a simple question. Are runs scored or wickets taken against minnows really of same value? The question is important because today we have sides like Afganistan and Ireland playing Test Cricket.

Let's assume that India plays a 5 Test series against Ireland and Dhawan literally demolishes every record Bradman held, then would it be worth the same? If your answer is no, then why disagree with Akash here?

Because Akash wasn’t bothered to comment on this issue when India was destroying Afghanistan within 2 days in India. The statement ain’t wrong, but the timing is awful and sounds like sour grapes

 

[cricketjoshila]

Jealousy nothing else.

Yes a supporter of the team ranked in top two in every format is jealous of a team ranked 7th in tests and 5th in ODIs.

 

[Khan12]

Yes a supporter of the team ranked in top two in every format is jealous of a team ranked 7th in tests and 5th in ODIs.

Where was he when India was playing Afghanistan?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Pathetic tweet IMO.

The amount of jealousy against Pakistani team is cringeworthy.

At least, we played against a financially struggling cricket board.

We kept out word, we kept our word and we kept our word and sent them our team to play.

Unlike these haters, hypocrite, pathetic and greedy boards who don't give a darn about the great game.

Baat karte Hain ....

India toured ZIM in 2016.

When Pakistan toured ZIM ZC likely makes a loss while India tour is proffitable.

An India no-show will have wide-ranging consequences for Zimbabwean cricket, most notably financially. ZC is running on close to empty and is in severe debt. Match fees to some players are still outstanding and there has been no clarity on the scheme for funding franchise cricket next summer.

The cost of hosting Bangladesh in April and early May will not have helped that situation. There are also scheduled tours by Pakistan in August and Sri Lanka in October, for which they will likely make a loss.

Some of the money could have been recovered by the big drawcard of India because of the substantial television rights fees they bring with them. It could also have helped ZC clear some of their outstanding bills. One of them is some of the commentators who worked on the Bangladesh series. They were not paid by ZC at the time but told they would be reimbursed after the India series.

Baat Karte hai.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Where was he when India was playing Afghanistan?

The same place where Pakistan was playing ireland.

Playing a new entrant in their debut test as a one off is one thing. But playing Ireland in multiple matches then going to ZIM to play a ZIM B team in a 5 match series and before that hosting a depleted WI team in Pakistan is a different one.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Where was he when Indian players were making a mokery of Afghanistan in the test match? Vijay and Dhawan scores tons and Afghanistan were bowled out for 100 in each innings and so all Indian trundlers got a chance to improve their bowling averages.
Did these stats count? Akash Chopra is a hypocrite of the highest category.

Did India play a 5 match test series vs Afghanistan?

It was a one off test and followed by no LOI series and India then didnot fly to ZIM to play a 5 match series.

 

[Khan12]

The same place where Pakistan was playing ireland.

Playing a new entrant in their debut test as a one off is one thing. But playing Ireland in multiple matches then going to ZIM to play a ZIM B team in a 5 match series and before that hosting a depleted WI team in Pakistan is a different one.

And that's our fault that they couldn't play their best team? Stop making up stuff we only played Ireland for 1 test it was India playing them. Know your stuff before you post.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Rich coming from India who's batters averages are based on pumelling minnows on home flat tracks.

Can you tell me who are the minnows and how many tests they played in India in last couple of seasons?

 

[cricketjoshila]

And that's our fault that they couldn't play their best team? Stop making up stuff we only played Ireland for 1 test it was India playing them. Know your stuff before you post.

ZIM is a minnow.Best or second best team is same. Yes You played Ireland in a test then scotland then ZIM.

Thats some minnow bashing of the highest order.

 

[Darkrai]

Yes a supporter of the team ranked in top two in every format is jealous of a team ranked 7th in tests and 5th in ODIs.

Perhaps your not jealous but you can't speak for others. It's pretty clear from the social media reaction that Indians are super jealous and they can't stand it, they have to resort to insults.

BTW Pakistan is number 1 in T20 and they are the CHAMPIONS of the ODI format. They HUMILIATED the so called top teams when it mattered the most. They drew test series in england with a super young team, lets see how India does with their hyped up team.

I guess the records only created more jealousy for these people. But hey i don't blame them i mean after all the trash talk to be humiliated the way they were...

 

[cricketjoshila]

Why don’t you guys prove that India always plays third or second stringers against minnows? I would like to know how many players have debuted for India in such games? Keep in mind india has an established batting order with dhawan, Sharma, Kohli, rahane, etc. Pakistan does not. If India rests its top batsmen who have so many games under their belt it makes sense. It doesn’t for Pakistan. The players need experience. Whether it’s poor teams or not is irrelevant.

But I would still like to see indian squads against poorer opposition in recent times.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/zimbabwe-v-india-2016/content/squad/1018671.html

Indian squad for ZIM tour 2016.

FYI KL and Yuzi made their debuts on that tour.

Bumrah had just made his debut in Jan 2016.

Look at the Squad.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Perhaps your not jealous but you can't speak for others. It's pretty clear from the social media reaction that Indians are super jealous and they can't stand it, they have to resort to insults.

BTW Pakistan is number 1 in T20 and they are the CHAMPIONS of the ODI format. They HUMILIATED the so called top teams when it mattered the most. They drew test series in england with a super young team, lets see how India does with their hyped up team.

I guess the records only created more jealousy for these people. But hey i don't blame them i mean after all the trash talk to be humiliated the way they were...

Speaking the fact is not jealousy or insult. Its laughable to say Indians are jealous of Pakistan.

No you are not Champions of ODI format. The World Champions are Australia and the number 1 team is England. You won a now defunct trophy.

Yea WI too won 2006 CT in England. They have since then won 2 WT20s, hardly anyone calls them a top team.

Hyped up Indian team??Most fans will tell you that our bowling is done with injuries to Bumrah and BK.Lets see what happens.

Trash talk?The trash talk i see is from the likes of you. LOL. No one is jealous of Pakistan.Your team is hardly a template of excellence.

 

[Stewie]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/zimbabwe-v-india-2016/content/squad/1018671.html

Indian squad for ZIM tour 2016.

FYI KL and Yuzi made their debuts on that tour.

Bumrah had just made his debut in Jan 2016.

Look at the Squad.

Pakistan had asif, shinwari and imad wasim who made not have made his debut but this wasn’t only his second series.

So how is India any better?

 

[Stewie]

Pakistan had asif, shinwari and imad wasim who made not have made his debut but this wasn’t only his second series.

So how is India any better?

Sorry not imad.. I meant imam

 

[cricketjoshila]

Problem is you cannot blame Pakistan fully. They are playing whoever is willing to host them. They have a very narrow window of hosting international cricket in UAE. Rest of the time they have to play cricket by touring other places. Also matches and wins againist minnows helps the players gain confidence.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Pakistan had asif, shinwari and imad wasim who made not have made his debut but this wasn’t only his second series.

So how is India any better?

See the full squad.Its not about those 3 i mentioned. The ones i mentioned have since played international cricket with some success. The rest of the team bar Dhoni and couple of others is god knows where

 

[Stewie]

Problem is you cannot blame Pakistan fully. They are playing whoever is willing to host them. They have a very narrow window of hosting international cricket in UAE. Rest of the time they have to play cricket by touring other places. Also matches and wins againist minnows helps the players gain confidence.

You are right, but also how about the fact that most of Pakistani players involved even though they were not debutant, had not played as many games as some of the top team senior players since Pakistan is in a rebuild phase after Misbah, and younis.

Fakhar had played maybe a dozen and faheem had 7 ODIs.. junaid was on the bench and brought on as more of a comeback player. Babar was out due to injury and was making a comeback as well. And then we had shinwari and imam, etc.

So you see my don’t know what chopta is on about here when his country was not any better so to speak. Just because some others players played in the ct final victory against India doesn’t make them marquee players with years of experience.

 

[Stewie]

Why don’t you do this.. count the total number of ODI experience these Pakistani lads had under their belt and compare them with the Indian ODI team that played England or even Zimbabwe in 2016.

You will see how short on experience they are. If you have well established stars in your team, it makes sense to sit them out. Most of the Pakistani players are at the start of their careers, barring sarfaraz, amir, malik, hafeez (who did not get a game) and Babar (who is making a comeback)

 

[cricketjoshila]

Why don’t you do this.. count the total number of ODI experience these Pakistani lads had under their belt and compare them with the Indian ODI team that played England or even Zimbabwe in 2016.

You will see how short on experience they are. If you have well established stars in your team, it makes sense to sit them out. Most of the Pakistani players are at the start of their careers, barring sarfaraz, amir, malik, hafeez (who did not get a game) and Babar (who is making a comeback)

Why compare with England??Is ZIM = ENG ?

Number of ODIs isnt a right cricteria as the person captaining that team in 2016 was MSD and he had a lot of ODIs under his belt.

Thing is Pakistan played its best team vs ZIM. All the regulars. India didnot.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Why compare with England??Is ZIM = ENG ?

Number of ODIs isnt a right cricteria as the person captaining that team in 2016 was MSD and he had a lot of ODIs under his belt.

Thing is Pakistan played its best team vs ZIM. All the regulars. India didnot.

Pakistan’s best team, besides Malik and to a certain extent Sarfraz, hasn’t played many matches. Some of the Zimbabwe players had played twice the amount of matches most of these Pakistani players have played so far. Yes Malik should have been rested, but the lad wanted to have a crack at what he is really good at: minnow bashing

 

[Stewie]

Why compare with England??Is ZIM = ENG ?

Number of ODIs isnt a right cricteria as the person captaining that team in 2016 was MSD and he had a lot of ODIs under his belt.

Thing is Pakistan played its best team vs ZIM. All the regulars. India didnot.

Take out dhoni from your side and take out malik from Pakistan and then compare them.

And best or second best is not the concern here. You want these young guys to have as much experience as possible in order to prepare them for World Cup next year. How difficult is that to understand?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Take out dhoni from your side and take out malik from Pakistan and then compare them.

And best or second best is not the concern here. You want these young guys to have as much experience as possible in order to prepare them for World Cup next year. How difficult is that to understand?

Experience by beating a ZIM B side? Most Pakistani domestic teams will smash them.

 

[Stewie]

Why compare with England??Is ZIM = ENG ?

Number of ODIs isnt a right cricteria as the person captaining that team in 2016 was MSD and he had a lot of ODIs under his belt.

Thing is Pakistan played its best team vs ZIM. All the regulars. India didnot.

You didn’t get my point. I meant compare total ODIs caps of Indian teams that played against England .. assuming they put their best on the field which I am sure they did.. and compare that with the Pak team total caps that played in the Zimbabwe series. You will find the amazingly lip sided numbers there. I said that because I could foresee you using the complaint about dhoni having played so many. My point is even if both teams field their best player, Indian players have a lot of experience compared with the Pakistani guys.
And I think Pakistan did the right thing by playing hen so as to get them more game time loOk’ing at World Cup next year

Hope they made sense to you

 

[Stewie]

Experience by beating a ZIM B side? Most Pakistani domestic teams will smash them.

To Bhai ghar bhitha ker unko apas mein khilatey? Come on dude I thought amongst Indian posters here you were the more sensible one. You would sit your top tier guys who played maybe a dozen international games, and send a totally unknown B player who you know won’t have a chance of making the team in future to Zimbabwe before you even knew that some of the zim players will withdraw for whatever reasons?

Do you see the flaw in that logic at all?
A lot of zim senior or first choice players withdrew at the last minute.

 

[Khan12]

ZIM is a minnow.Best or second best team is same. Yes You played Ireland in a test then scotland then ZIM.

Thats some minnow bashing of the highest order.

And India played Afghanistan and irelabd and that is minnow bashing at the highest order.

 

[Stewie]

And India played Afghanistan and irelabd and that is minnow bashing at the highest order.

At the end of the day it’s a professional sport. These days layers make their living out of playing the game and match fees are a big part of it. Now it’s no hidden secret that Pakistani players don’t make as much as the rest of the top teams despite being number 1 on the most commercial format of cricket... due to whatever reasons, and I think it’s only fair they be given a chance to make up for it and not sit out just because “the opposition is weak”

 

[gazza619]

Akash's tweet asks a simple question. Are runs scored or wickets taken against minnows really of same value? The question is important because today we have sides like Afganistan and Ireland playing Test Cricket.

Let's assume that India plays a 5 Test series against Ireland and Dhawan literally demolishes every record Bradman held, then would it be worth the same? If your answer is no, then why disagree with Akash here?

The question is where was Akash bastmati rice when India were moking Aghanistan?
If India failed to make a single world record against Aghanistan then it aint our problem mate.

 

[Darkrai]

Speaking the fact is not jealousy or insult. Its laughable to say Indians are jealous of Pakistan.

No you are not Champions of ODI format. The World Champions are Australia and the number 1 team is England. You won a now defunct trophy.

Yea WI too won 2006 CT in England. They have since then won 2 WT20s, hardly anyone calls them a top team.

Hyped up Indian team??Most fans will tell you that our bowling is done with injuries to Bumrah and BK.Lets see what happens.

Trash talk?The trash talk i see is from the likes of you. LOL. No one is jealous of Pakistan.Your team is hardly a template of excellence.

So cursing the Players and fans isn't insult and it's a fact?...ok then

1) Indians are jealous, just go see the reactions on twitter. Every stat that is put up by ICC twitter and by other people Indian fans are the first to downplay those stats and go for the insults.

2) We are the CHAMPIONS. It's time you learn to deal with it. The whole point of these tournament is to determine the champions hence called champions trophy. Otherwise there would be no point. And yes ppl do refer to WI as world champions...can't believe i have to say that...

3) I remember that thread that said India will humiliate England. Every Indian i've come across said India will win.

4) There is a limit to blind hatred. Are you seriously telling me Indians didn't trash talk before CT final? If so you are a troll.

 

[InziRules]

Pakistan played their best team

Imam Ul Haq, in his 9th game.
Shaheen Shinwari
Faheem
Asif Ali
Even Fakhar's in his 18th game ***

Even if you think that we played our strongest team, you guys do realise that most of our strongest team haven't even played 50 ODI's?

Babar was one of the more experienced players with 46

 

[Titan24]

Our best team!! other than Sarfaraz and Malik none have played even 100 matches, with Asif Ali, Imam, Fakhar, Babar Azam, Shinwari, Nawaz, Shadab havent even played 50 matches.

Really we should be resting guys who are yet to play 50 or 100 matches, if someone thinks that he should stop talking about cricket as he doesnt know the game.

 

[giri26]

To be frank I don't think there is anything wrong in what Aakash said. There are threads on this very forum where people have questioned if runs scored against "x" team should be counted or not. So not sure why it is wrong for others to say the same. It is his opinion and he has stated that.

 

[Monsee]

To be frank I don't think there is anything wrong in what Aakash said. There are threads on this very forum where people have questioned if runs scored against "x" team should be counted or not. So not sure why it is wrong for others to say the same. It is his opinion and he has stated that.

It is the context and timing that is the problem: Pak team, as many above already mentioned, is full of 1-2 year old (some barely) rookies, how can Pak sit them out and play another set of rookies? This makes no sense, if e.g. Inzi and MoYo were still in the team and we continued to play them, I see an issue then but who are these number 1 players in our team that have oodles of experience under their belt: Imam, Fakhar, Babar (not even 50 ODI's played yet), Asif Ali, Shadab, Faheem, Hassan Ali, Shinwari...who are these world travelled players we somehow secretly have in the team that none of the Pak fans know of whom should have been sit out?

Timing: When India plays Ireland, Afghanistan etc., it is not an issue but when Pakistan does the same, it becomes some sort of a crime against humanity? isn't part of the reason Pak have been constantly playing these lowly ranked teams because a certain country 'Cough Hypcrite Rockers Cough' have gone back on their words? Teaching us morality or principles is only good as long as you try out the same shoe for a change as well!

 

[giri26]

It is the context and timing that is the problem: Pak team, as many above already mentioned, is full of 1-2 year old (some barely) rookies, how can Pak sit them out and play another set of rookies? This makes no sense, if e.g. Inzi and MoYo were still in the team and we continued to play them, I see an issue then but who are these number 1 players in our team that have oodles of experience under their belt: Imam, Fakhar, Babar (not even 50 ODI's played yet), Asif Ali, Shadab, Faheem, Hassan Ali, Shinwari...who are these world travelled players we somehow secretly have in the team that none of the Pak fans know of whom should have been sit out?

Timing: When India plays Ireland, Afghanistan etc., it is not an issue but when Pakistan does the same, it becomes some sort of a crime against humanity? isn't part of the reason Pak have been constantly playing these lowly ranked teams because a certain country 'Cough Hypcrite Rockers Cough' have gone back on their words? Teaching us morality or principles is only good as long as you try out the same shoe for a change as well!

I understand where you are coming from. Even though the timing was poor, Aakash still made a generic comment:

"why and how runs/wickets against seriously weak teams are given equal weightage as International runs/wickets vs must stronger teams?? Shouldn't there be a system to differentiate both..."

When he says runs/wickets against weak teams, he means all the teams like Ireland, Afghanistan etc. If he wanted to just point out Zimbabwe, he would have said so. He has just stated what has been discussed on this forum for years. We see that people remove runs scored against Zim, BD etc when they post stats. So nothing wrong in that comment. Also telling that he is only commenting when Pakistan is playing a weak team is something I don't understand either. Pakistan played against Scotland, Ireland, World X1, a depleted WI team etc. There was no comment such as this. so the conspiracy theory is far fetched.

This is just one ex player who decided to post his opinion when one top international team is playing a weak one. Also he did not specifically target Zimbabwe alone, he said "weak teams" which means it includes India's runs/wickets against Afghanistan/Ireland etc.

 

[Caved12]

It is the context and timing that is the problem: Pak team, as many above already mentioned, is full of 1-2 year old (some barely) rookies, how can Pak sit them out and play another set of rookies? This makes no sense, if e.g. Inzi and MoYo were still in the team and we continued to play them, I see an issue then but who are these number 1 players in our team that have oodles of experience under their belt: Imam, Fakhar, Babar (not even 50 ODI's played yet), Asif Ali, Shadab, Faheem, Hassan Ali, Shinwari...who are these world travelled players we somehow secretly have in the team that none of the Pak fans know of whom should have been sit out?

Timing: When India plays Ireland, Afghanistan etc., it is not an issue but when Pakistan does the same, it becomes some sort of a crime against humanity? isn't part of the reason Pak have been constantly playing these lowly ranked teams because a certain country 'Cough Hypcrite Rockers Cough' have gone back on their words? Teaching us morality or principles is only good as long as you try out the same shoe for a change as well!

I totally agree with Monsee's first paragraph. Good post.

 

[cricketjoshila]

To Bhai ghar bhitha ker unko apas mein khilatey? Come on dude I thought amongst Indian posters here you were the more sensible one. You would sit your top tier guys who played maybe a dozen international games, and send a totally unknown B player who you know won’t have a chance of making the team in future to Zimbabwe before you even knew that some of the zim players will withdraw for whatever reasons?

Do you see the flaw in that logic at all?
A lot of zim senior or first choice players withdrew at the last minute.

See if its experience its better to have them play pakistan domestic teams or A tours ro other countries than play Zim.

This year Pakistan has played

3T20Is with a C WI team.

1 test with Ireland

2 T20Is with Scotland

2 T20Is with Zim

5 ODIs with Zim

Which other team plays so many games againist minnows?

You think a Zimbabwe full team is any better?

 

[cricketjoshila]

It is the context and timing that is the problem: Pak team, as many above already mentioned, is full of 1-2 year old (some barely) rookies, how can Pak sit them out and play another set of rookies? This makes no sense, if e.g. Inzi and MoYo were still in the team and we continued to play them, I see an issue then but who are these number 1 players in our team that have oodles of experience under their belt: Imam, Fakhar, Babar (not even 50 ODI's played yet), Asif Ali, Shadab, Faheem, Hassan Ali, Shinwari...who are these world travelled players we somehow secretly have in the team that none of the Pak fans know of whom should have been sit out?

Timing: When India plays Ireland, Afghanistan etc., it is not an issue but when Pakistan does the same, it becomes some sort of a crime against humanity? isn't part of the reason Pak have been constantly playing these lowly ranked teams because a certain country 'Cough Hypcrite Rockers Cough' have gone back on their words? Teaching us morality or principles is only good as long as you try out the same shoe for a change as well!

Indian responsibility? Lol.

India played 1 test and 2 T20Is againist minnows. How many have pakistan played?

 

[Stewie]

See if its experience its better to have them play pakistan domestic teams or A tours ro other countries than play Zim.

This year Pakistan has played

3T20Is with a C WI team.

1 test with Ireland

2 T20Is with Scotland

2 T20Is with Zim

5 ODIs with Zim

Which other team plays so many games againist minnows?

You think a Zimbabwe full team is any better?

Fine, how about you tell your board to send a full team over for a 5 test and 5 ODI series then? Or any other country for that matter.

You make it sound like our country plays with minnows on purpose. We will get our players to play against any side to get them exposure. I don’t think anybody has any grounds to criticize us. But if you want, carry on with your moaning. Let’s see if it helps somehow change things around.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Fine, how about you tell your board to send a full team over for a 5 test and 5 ODI series then? Or any other country for that matter.

You make it sound like our country plays with minnows on purpose. We will get our players to play against any side to get them exposure. I don’t think anybody has any grounds to criticize us. But if you want, carry on with your moaning. Let’s see if it helps somehow change things around.

I said in a earlier post that Pakistan isnt fully responsible for this.Didnt I?

But people will put questions when a team will consistently play minnows. Its like a batsman being HTB.People question that too.Its not moaning.

 

[Stewie]

I said in a earlier post that Pakistan isnt fully responsible for this.Didnt I?

But people will put questions when a team will consistently play minnows. Its like a batsman being HTB.People question that too.Its not moaning.

Well it’s a good thing those people are not in charge of determining what’s an authentic record and what’s not.

Jiss ne jo putna hai put le... right?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Well it’s a good thing those people are not in charge of determining what’s an authentic record and what’s not.

Jiss ne jo putna hai put le... right?

But experts will question the records when XYZ player will be compared to ABC player.

 

[jusarrived]

Valid question, but bad timing. He was obviously expecting a reaction. The guy thinks too high of himself anyway. Some one should as him, should wickets taken by bowlers of average players like him really count?

 

[Slog]

It is a great “get out of jail” card for our resident patriots. When in trouble, talk about the Champions Trophy Final.

It's a pretty good jail card though you gotta admit

 

[Sidilicious]

I can understand this line of criticism. Yes they should have used this opportunity to take some chances and try some new faces

I would have loved to see some of the new kids on the block. One of the reasons Pakistan is doing well is because they have given chances to new faces and even tried kids from U19.

They could have rested Fakhar, Babar, Hasan and Amir. Sarfaraz should have batted higher to get some runs under the belt. Imam and Faheem used the opportunity well. But if a B team was used Shadab, Shaheen, and some 3rd opener should have also been able to shine.

Also, I do not blame the PCB for arranging the series. Zimbabwe can just play against Bang and Afg all the time. They need to be tested against better sides. But I blame PCB for not playing the new faces.

 

[A-1]

The message is actually valid but the timing (and the messenger in this case) is extremely poor.

He comes off as a sore and bitter individual.

Not the players fault though, can only play the team that wants to play with you.

 

[the Great Khan]

So Pakistani hits a billion runs against very weak opposition which is how it should be, and Indian gets riled up about it..what a surprise.

Indian does the same and its future superstar and all sorts of other stuff..

 

[silentkiller187]

Fact of the matter is, who sets these rules on the ranking and weighting, if Zimbabwe go on to become a powerhouse in the next few years do we start adjusting the weighting. This argument will never make sense until there is clear divisions set up. At present all ODI status teams operate on a level playing field whether you like it or not. Its not PAKS fault all these players deserted ZIM. Therefore it is only fair all runs/wickets are given the same weighting. Otherwise it will be left to opinion which doesn't help anyone

 

[topspin]

Not only Fakhar's fastest to 1000 ODI runs but Rashid's fastest to 100 wickets need to be classified differently otherwise with all the 50 -100 members or so coming into T20I - most of these records that are going to be broken time and time again will just become more irrelevant. I say this as a big fan of Fakhar Zaman but there are genuine concerns that cricket will become a sport of meaningless statistics.

Akash Chopra just timed his statement wrong, if he had set this precedent from the Afghanistan test then he wouldn't come across as a man with double standards.

 

[Stewie]

But experts will question the records when XYZ player will be compared to ABC player.

Like I said opinions are like ****les.. everybody has one. They are entitled to their opinion, just like this chopra guy, who I don’t even know qualifies as an expert or not to be honest. But if it comes down to “worrying about expert opinions” vs “what’s logistically feasible for my team” does it take a genius to figure out what option I’ll pick?

 

[Stewie]

I would have loved to see some of the new kids on the block. One of the reasons Pakistan is doing well is because they have given chances to new faces and even tried kids from U19.

They could have rested Fakhar, Babar, Hasan and Amir. Sarfaraz should have batted higher to get some runs under the belt. Imam and Faheem used the opportunity well. But if a B team was used Shadab, Shaheen, and some 3rd opener should have also been able to shine.

Also, I do not blame the PCB for arranging the series. Zimbabwe can just play against Bang and Afg all the time. They need to be tested against better sides. But I blame PCB for not playing the new faces.

Ideally, yes.

But with the World Cup around the corner, you want maximum games for your potential squad members especially if they have not played many games.

If it was right after World Cup, yes I would say send me an entirely brand new set of guys

 

[silentkiller187]

Harry Kane won the golden boot at the world cup after scoring most of his goals against tunisia and panama.You don't see anyone making a fuss about this. International sport is a cut throat environment and you go for the jugular everytime. don't no what the fuss is about tbh.

 

[last_knight]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/zimbabwe-v-india-2016/content/squad/1018671.html

Indian squad for ZIM tour 2016.

FYI KL and Yuzi made their debuts on that tour.

Bumrah had just made his debut in Jan 2016.

Look at the Squad.

Sending a depleted squad should be discouraged.

 

[Mp812]

Indian responsibility? Lol.

India played 1 test and 2 T20Is againist minnows. How many have pakistan played?

One also got the feeling that test against Afg was played reluctantly just to encourage and help Afghan Cricket board

 

[Subhan999]

Indians dont like fakhar Zaman because of the beating he gave to Jadeja and Ashwin in the CT final, and why would they. It's clear Chopra doesn't like fakhar Zaman either, and his reaction is a natural one that we would all expect. Fakhar didn't really celebrate his 100 and barely even celebrated his 200. He understands the quality of the opposition, we all do. But he would be a traitor if he underperformed. Fakhar has scored good runs against all opposition and his record and averages are shaping up nicely. He took care of business against Zimbabwe like a true professional, wasn't really concerned about what the Indians would think.

 

[Rayyman]

Indians dont like fakhar Zaman because of the beating he gave to Jadeja and Ashwin in the CT final, and why would they. It's clear Chopra doesn't like fakhar Zaman either, and his reaction is a natural one that we would all expect. Fakhar didn't really celebrate his 100 and barely even celebrated his 200. He understands the quality of the opposition, we all do. But he would be a traitor if he underperformed. Fakhar has scored good runs against all opposition and his record and averages are shaping up nicely. He took care of business against Zimbabwe like a true professional, wasn't really concerned about what the Indians would think.

Big test for FZ will be pitches on SA tour.

 

[Subhan999]

Big test for FZ will be pitches on SA tour.

Everything is a big test for FZ. Even slow uae pitches might challenge him. Pak goes as far as FZ goes. He's only played 17 Odis still a rookie. But that hand eye coordination, the squat, the playing low and late and the timing, hopefully should be successful in SA. Many more double hundreds and final hundreds to come IA.

 

[Mp812]

So Pakistani hits a billion runs against very weak opposition which is how it should be, and Indian gets riled up about it..what a surprise.

Indian does the same and its future superstar and all sorts of other stuff..

Once upon a time there was thread called "Do runs against SL count ?"
Chopra just tweeted something on similar lines.... Only this time opposition was Zim B team?