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Analysing the records of Pakistan coaches: Whatmore vs Waqar vs Arthur (Tests/ODIS/T20S)

Markhor

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After the 2019 World Cup, PCB will decide upon Mickey Arthur's future. I suggest it's best for them and fans to form their opinion with the facts in mind. Therefore I've broken down the records of Mickey Arthur and his two full-time predecessors Dav Whatmore and Waqar Younis.

The criteria for ODIS and T20S was to include the nine other teams that participated in the 2019 World Cup.

Dav Whatmore:

Dav Whatmore stats.jpg

Waqar Younis:

Waqar Younis stats.jpg

Mickey Arthur:

Mickey Arthur stats.jpg

Tournament record:

Dav Whatmore - Won 2012 Asia Cup, Semi Finalists in 2012 WT20 and Group Stage exit from 2013 Champions Trophy.

Waqar Younis - Quarter Finalists in 2015 World Cup and Group Stage exit from 2016 WT20.

Mickey Arthur - #1 Test mace in 2016, won 2017 Champions Trophy, Super Four exit from 2018 Asia Cup and Group Stage exit from 2019 World Cup, finishing in 5th due to NRR.

On this basis, where does Mickey Arthur rank amongst his predecessors, what are his strengths/weaknesses in his track record, and does he merit a contract extension with Pakistan ?
 
If Mickey stays I won’t complain. He is better than the other 2 without a doubt. I just don’t like his love for all rounders who are spinners rather than specialists. Also I was convinced that he would get rid of the senior culture, but instead he just let them be in the team.

If he is willing to change his attitude towards specialist spinners, and if he is allowed more of a say in what players are selected then he can stay. But if he is going to just be another yes man, he can go.
 
Also if we are going to hire someone like Mohsin Khan or Moin Khan, I would rather keep Mickey Arthur.
 
I think Mickey is the best here. He was essentially one game away from a very good record in major tournaments for Pakistan. I think purely because Whatmore and Younis had a couple of dreadful tournaments (WC 2015 where the team was poor and we never looked like winning the tournament and Whatmore had probably arguably the worst ever tournament with CT 2013), they were never going to be seen as better than Mickey.
 
Wow these are some shockingly mediocre performances. Pak has regressed terribly in this decade. Mickey is the best among 3 I suppose but that is not saying much.
 
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ex players etc who want mickey gone also admit that the coach doesnt have that much power so i fail to understand their argument..get rid of mickey and get who...mohsin khan??
 
Excellent OP!

What about captains? :)
 
Whatmore had the services of a pre 15 degree Ajmal, Hafeez and a decent Afridi and an in form Junaid and Irfan. He really should have had a much better odi and T20 bowling record
 
[MENTION=107807]Pete Rose[/MENTION], as you were saying 14 300+ scores under Mickey compared to just 4 and 2 300+ scores under Dav and Waqar definitely counts for something.

ex players etc who want mickey gone also admit that the coach doesnt have that much power so i fail to understand their argument..get rid of mickey and get who...mohsin khan??
I think the numbers also show foreign coaches have a better grasp of today's one day cricket and the tactics required, whereas local coaches as [MENTION=147314]topspin[/MENTION] often makes the argument are stuck in the past where 230-240 is par score.

However in fairness Waqar's Test record is decent albeit without any series outside Asia in his latest stint.

Whatmore had the services of a pre 15 degree Ajmal, Hafeez and a decent Afridi and an in form Junaid and Irfan. He really should have had a much better odi and T20 bowling record

Savak what do you think of the surprising fact that our bowling record under Mickey is actually better in terms of bowling avg and economy rate than Waqar whose specialism is meant to be bowling ?
 
[MENTION=107807]Pete Rose[/MENTION], as you were saying 14 300+ scores under Mickey compared to just 4 and 2 300+ scores under Dav and Waqar definitely counts for something.


I think the numbers also show foreign coaches have a better grasp of today's one day cricket and the tactics required, whereas local coaches as [MENTION=147314]topspin[/MENTION] often makes the argument are stuck in the past where 230-240 is par score.

However in fairness Waqar's Test record is decent albeit without any series outside Asia in his latest stint.



Savak what do you think of the surprising fact that our bowling record under Mickey is actually better in terms of bowling avg and economy rate than Waqar whose specialism is meant to be bowling ?

In Waqar's first stint in 2010-11 we beat NZ in NZ in Test series, it's a decent acheivment.
 
people seem to want to ignore that Waqar built the test team that went on to lift the mace under Arthur

I'm OK with Arthur , personally I think the selectors are the problem, as they are the ones who constantly ignore players that are performing in the domestic circuit
 
Waqar’s record is best amongst the three in tests, Watmore’s record is best in ODIs whole Arther’s record is best in T20s.
 
Waqar’s record is best amongst the three in tests, Watmore’s record is best in ODIs whole Arther’s record is best in T20s.
We are closer to an international standard odi team under Arthur, than the others.
 
We are closer to an international standard odi team under Arthur, than the others.

Have to give credit to players who came in during the last 3 years Babar, comeback of Amir, Fakhar, Shadab, Shaheen, Imam etc PSL also had a role in highlighting most of the these players which previous coaches didnt have at their disposal.
 
Mickey's position as a foreign coach who has stuck with Pakistan is symbolically pretty relevant when it comes to the ongoing saga of bringing cricket back to the country.

Given his overall record and certain Pakistani things (senior culture, nepotism) are beyond even the coaches control, he hasn't done that bad overall.

I think he needs to stay.
 
Coaches don't mean much in cricket, but continuity does. I say keep him on for a while and see how it goes from there.

No that baba jee Shoaib Sheesha Malik is gone, and hopefully Hafeez too, we can see some young blood enter. I'm willing to take a bet and see how he does with the youngsters.
 
You lot deserve the likes of waqar watmore and Mohsin khan... I hope Mickey goes and then you will realise his worth.

What can he do with the tools given to him by the selectors????

Half of those tools are rusted broken and unrepairable
 
Waqar was abysmal in LOI. Mickey is a huge upgrade from him. Our batting is progressive compared to the past and the team is capable of posting 300+. A few more adjustments like getting rid of the seniors can really help the team.
 
Mickey should stay. We need a better batting coach and I’m still on the fence about Azhar
 
I am repeating again. Nothing to do with coach. Players talent and execution matters on the ground.
 
After the 2019 World Cup, PCB will decide upon Mickey Arthur's future. I suggest it's best for them and fans to form their opinion with the facts in mind. Therefore I've broken down the records of Mickey Arthur and his two full-time predecessors Dav Whatmore and Waqar Younis.

The criteria for ODIS and T20S was to include the nine other teams that participated in the 2019 World Cup.

Dav Whatmore:

View attachment 93639

Waqar Younis:

View attachment 93641

Mickey Arthur:

View attachment 93640

Tournament record:

Dav Whatmore - Won 2012 Asia Cup, Semi Finalists in 2012 WT20 and Group Stage exit from 2013 Champions Trophy.

Waqar Younis - Quarter Finalists in 2015 World Cup and Group Stage exit from 2016 WT20.

Mickey Arthur - #1 Test mace in 2016, won 2017 Champions Trophy, Super Four exit from 2018 Asia Cup and Group Stage exit from 2019 World Cup, finishing in 5th due to NRR.

On this basis, where does Mickey Arthur rank amongst his predecessors, what are his strengths/weaknesses in his track record, and does he merit a contract extension with Pakistan ?
You’re joking if you attach #1 ranking to Mickey. At best it must be shared between Waqar and Mickey.

Also Waqar took us to semi finals of WC 2011.

If you’re talking about highs you must also talk about lows which for Mickey arthur include losing the first home series in UAE, losing home series to SL and a 7 match tests losing streak which is longest losing streak for Pak in tests in addition to 10+ match ODI losing streak
 
You lot deserve the likes of waqar watmore and Mohsin khan... I hope Mickey goes and then you will realise his worth.

What can he do with the tools given to him by the selectors????

Half of those tools are rusted broken and unrepairable

Yea Mickeys the 2 year old kid who is blameless.

He is atrocious.

At the very least what you can hope and expect from your coach is that he is sincere to his job which unfortunately Mickey isn’t. All he is concerned about is getting as much cash from as many sources as he can. That’s why he has two sources of income and isn’t doing justice to either of the jobs.

I don’t know if he’s the best or worst coach we’ve had but most certainly he is the greediest in terms of money.
 
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Good to see the stats of the coaches so we have the facts in mind. But different set of players, captains, venues and opposition also play a major role, so we should have that in mind as well, for instance which coach got the best out of the least talented players?
 
Another thing to note here is during Waqars time the team regressed in the limited format, I don't credit Waqar with the Test record because there aren't enough games to represent things properly and most of the 15 games were played in the UAE.

Mickey has meanwhile taken things and improved them in the limited over games from where Waqar left things and this is even with the awful 11 losing streak. Mickey's tactics in tests have definitely had a role, esp in the UAE going with 1 spinner. But what surprises me is that under Mickey, our bowling averages have gotten better as have our batting averages barring test matches where it's the other way around.

If this trend continues, I see us going from strength to strength. Great post OP! Convinced me further that Mickey should definitely stay a little longer!
 
You’re joking if you attach #1 ranking to Mickey. At best it must be shared between Waqar and Mickey.

Also Waqar took us to semi finals of WC 2011.

If you’re talking about highs you must also talk about lows which for Mickey arthur include losing the first home series in UAE, losing home series to SL and a 7 match tests losing streak which is longest losing streak for Pak in tests in addition to 10+ match ODI losing streak

The Test record has suffered in UAE because Sarfraz is a mediocre captain who never takes responsibility with the bat. The difference in retaining and losing our undefeated UAE streak is 27 runs across two close Abu Dhabi runchases vs SL and WI where Sarfraz bottled it.

Also Waqar never toured outside Asia in his second run which's being analysed here whereas Arthur has toured Australia, England (twice), New Zealand and South Africa !

Despite that ODI losing streak, Arthur's W/L ratio is better than Waqar's. We've increased the number of 300+ scores from 2 under Waqar to 14 under Arthur, and our batting and bowling averages, as well as RPO and economy rates has also improved.
 
I blame selectors and PCB for our downfall more as much as Coach and Captain. I mean after Misbah-Younis and Yasir's peak. Where are other batsman? Why Inzi didn't selected players like Fawad Alam? Where is the 2nd spinner that was supposed to be groomed.
 
Best coach was Whatmore, he was trying to develop all-rounders like Bilawal Bhatti and Anwar Ali Khan. In the long run they didnt do well but he tried to modernise our style of cricket which affected our test record.

For the time being keeping Mickey is the sensible thing to do as he is also trying to modernise our cricket. He needs support of a better batting and bowling coach however. Dont see Azhar Mahmood or Grant Flower being the right people in those supporting roles.
 
I think these four wins in the world cup is going to have the same effect in Pakistan cricket as the CT 2017 did. Not many things are going to change.
 
Interesting figures
Mickey Arthur has been impressive
What was his overall records like with Australia and Sa and even Karachi kings
And has he improved as a coach over time ?

Mickey Arthur's South Africa record:

TESTS

Played 45
Won 22
Drew 7
Lost 16
W/L ratio - 1.375.

ODIS

Played 84
Won 49
Lost 32
NR 3
W/L ratio - 1.531.

Mickey Arthur's Australia record:

TESTS

Played 19
Won 10
Drew 3
Lost 6
W/L ratio - 1.666

ODIS

Played 38
Won 18
Lost 16
Tied 1
NR 3
W/L ratio - 1.125

Again that's excluding teams who didn't compete in 2019 WC.
 
England, and the Importance of Faith and Strategies.

(Long post. TLDR: Strategies are important. England abandoned theirs in the 2015 World Cup, but have stuck with a new one since. Also remember to back your players, which England did now but didn’t at the last World Cup.)

Cricket is a team sport. That’s why you can’t just be content with picking your best players, they need to have synergy, complement each others’ strengths, and cover their weaknesses. To succeed, you need to play to a strategy. This does sound a bit like football or T20 league talk, but it’s true. Having the best players won’t always be enough, to go the extra mile, you need a plan to win. A quick example is Australia, who are overloaded with top order batsmen. David Warner, Aaron Finch, Usman Khawaja, and Shaun Marsh are all openers. Alex Carey would also open for South Australia. Steve Smith is a number 3 batsman. Carey has batted this whole tournament at 5, 6, or 7, while at least 4 of the rest have played in every game except the semi final. At least one of them is always out of position, and coming out to bat at a time that doesn’t suit their batting style. The talent is there, but the synergy and planning isn’t.

Before the 2015 World Cup, England had a plan. Their plan might have been outdated, but it was at least something. The idea was to have one opener take advantage of the first powerplay’s fielding restrictions and be aggressive, while the other opener and the batsmen at 3, 4, and even 5 accumulated runs throughout the innings. Then at the end, maybe the last 5 to 10 overs, the batsmen would up the tempo. Hopefully they’d end up with 250. On a good day, even 300. Their bowlers would bowl test match lines with the new balls, maybe getting some early wickets. After that it was about stemming the flow of runs. It may be an outdated plan, one that wouldn’t work on flat pitches, as they had an upper limit on their score and their bowlers were one dimensional and helpless without assistance from the pitch, but it was something. It would work on pitches which assisted pace bowling, as England usually went with 4 pacers and one spinner, and batted without much risk. England had shown their willingness to play to this plan. Once they found an opener who could play in that “aggressive” role, they decided that one of Cook or Bell was surplus. So they dropped the more out of form Cook on the eve of the Cup. Not ideal, but they were sticking to their guns. There was a tri series with Australia and India that preceded that World Cup. And England didn’t do too badly in it. They beat India twice, both times on pitches with some life in it, and ran Australia close enough twice. While they got thrashed in the final, they had done well enough before to be optimistic enough for the World Cup. Sure, they weren’t going to win, but they would do alright. Surely a quarter final spot at least. Maybe even a semi final spot too if things go extremely well. Moeen Ali was the aggressor up top. Ian Bell, James Taylor, and Joe Root would accumulate in the middle. Eoin Morgan, Ravi Bopara, Jos Buttler, and Chris Woakes would make quick runs at the end. James Anderson, Stuart Broad, Steven Finn, and Woakes could bowl what was required of them. Moeen and Root would sneak in 10 overs in the middle while being cheap. They had picked a side that could play to their strategy. But then, when they played the first game of that World Cup, they didn’t enter with that 11. Crucially, they played Gary Ballance instead of Ravi Bopara, and had Ballance bat at 3 while Taylor got shunted to 6. Taylor wasn’t built for that “final flourish” role, while Ballance wasn’t part of the planning beforehand. He was in the side as a backup to one of the accumulators. Now he was playing with all of them in the same 11. The balance (get it?) of the side was upset. At the last possible second, England had betrayed their plan.

Now, keeping the 11 that had finished second in the tri series wouldn’t have won England that World Cup. They still may not have made the quarter finals with it. But at least they would’ve shown faith in themselves. They abandoned their thinking at, quite literally, the last moment, and played that World Cup, one which broke new batting ground, as a muddled mess. It was so bad that they hit the reset button on their ODI cricket after it. New plan, and this time they would stick with it.

Morgan, Andrew Strauss, and Paul Farbrace got together to discuss what they’d do next. What approach should they take by the time the next World Cup rolled around on home soil? The approach they picked was much like the one Brendon McCullum and Mike Hesson’s New Zealand used in that World Cup: score quick runs throughout the innings, and keep taking wickets. So they adjusted the squad to play to this plan. There are a ton of players playing senior cricket in England. Finding people to fill the roles the thinktank created wasn’t hard. Gone was Ian Bell, too slow for the role of scoring quickly up front. In came Jason Roy and Alex Hales, largely of T20 fame. Joe Root and James Taylor wouldn’t play in the same 11. They both had the same role, and one of them batting at 4 would only be of use if 2 wickets fell quickly at the start of the innings. England had faith in their top 3 to last a while, so having another accumulator at 4 was unnecessary. Root would start, and Taylor was his backup. Morgan would now be at 4, a more attacking option in the middle but able to play the long haul if needed. The hard hitting Ben Stokes was recalled and played at 5. He also added with the ball (more on that later). Then, more quick scorers, with Buttler at 6, and Sam Billings at 7, followed by the bowling line up of Adil Rashid, Chris Jordan, Liam Plunkett, and Finn. That was a batting line up that would look to attack throughout, and would always keep the runs flowing. The bowlers were less one dimensional than the ones that had played in the World Cup. Rashid was an attacking option that spun the ball both ways, Plunkett had variations, while Stokes and Finn could bowl quick. They would always be looking for wickets, even if they went for runs doing so. The batting lineup allowed them to not worry about being expensive, as the batsmen would cover it. The bowlers just needed to take wickets. England chose this strategy to follow, now they just needed to show some faith and stick with it.

England have not only stuck with this mode of playing, but also the players. The side that will play the World Cup final is very similar to the one that played New Zealand at Edgbaston 4 years ago to kickstart the new era. Roy, Root, Morgan, Stokes, Buttler, Rashid, and Plunkett are still here. Hales has been changed out for Bairstow, for both on field and off field reasons. There’s Chris Woakes in place of Sam Billings, so England now have the luxury of a sixth bowler (7 if you count Root) in case one of the bowlers has a bad day. And there is Jofra Archer and Mark Wood in place of Chris Jordan and Steven Finn. Both bowlers add extreme pace, and each has their own way of attacking the batsmen with it. Even the squad of 15 is close to the one that played that New Zealand series. James Vince replaced Taylor, who was forced into retirement with a heart condition. There’s also Tom Curran instead of David Willey, who had been underperforming for a while and just couldn’t make the final squad, and Liam Dawson and Moeen Ali instead of Jordan, to add more spin options. By sticking with their players, they’ve allowed them to become grow into their roles and cricket at the highest level, and build a healthy team environment. This isn’t a side at war with itself, where everyone is looking over their shoulder, fearful of getting dropped.

England had a good core to implement their strategy in 2015, and the journey since then has been about fine tuning it. The bowling has been beefed up. It has a proper test bowler taking advantage of helpful conditions with good pace and variety to back him up once the movement is gone (Woakes), extreme pace to hurry the batsmen (Archer and Wood), variations in the middle overs to keep the batsmen on their toes (Plunkett), a fifth pacer who’s a bit of all of that (Stokes), and a spinner that can spin it significantly both ways without being too obvious about it (Rashid). It is a solid attack, and it’s had a good time this tournament. The batting has 4 players who primarily take the fight to the bowlers (Roy, Bairstow, Morgan, and Buttler), and 2 capable of grinding out the tough runs (Root and Stokes). All of whom are able to play in the other mode if need be. England also embrace flexibility in their batting line up, promoting their hardest hitter Buttler if they got off to a good start and are, say, 1 or 2 down after 30 overs. It’s a time to attack harder, and they change their batting order to do that. There’s even a seventh option with the ball (Root) if it comes to that, and each of the bowlers has a decent enough ability with the bat (especially Woakes, who’s almost a proper batsman). There are even 2 wicket keepers (Bairstow and Buttler). The depth is there in every department.

This is a quality England side brimming with talent, perhaps their best ever. But all that talent would be wasted without a clear path to follow. England have played to a plan for four years, and, through thick and thin, stuck to that plan. It would have been easy to abandon it after getting rolled over for 100-odd against Australia in the 5th ODI in 2015. It would have been easy to give up on their bowling method when they kept going for runs. It would have been easy to panic after getting thrashed by Pakistan in the 2017 Champions Trophy semi final. It would have been easy to enter their final 2 group games with muddled minds and no clear direction after losing consecutively to Sri Lanka and Australia, where their batting failed them. But they didn’t. They went after India and New Zealand the same way they planned to 4 years ago, and tackled the semi final against Australia the same way. England have shown faith in themselves, their players, and their methods. Their reward is a World Cup final.

The lesson from all this is: identify your strengths, show faith to a core group of players you’ve identified, and plan a strategy around them. Simply having the talent isn’t enough. You also need a strategy.
 
Mickey Arthur's South Africa record:

TESTS

Played 45
Won 22
Drew 7
Lost 16
W/L ratio - 1.375.

ODIS

Played 84
Won 49
Lost 32
NR 3
W/L ratio - 1.531.

Mickey Arthur's Australia record:

TESTS

Played 19
Won 10
Drew 3
Lost 6
W/L ratio - 1.666

ODIS

Played 38
Won 18
Lost 16
Tied 1
NR 3
W/L ratio - 1.125

Again that's excluding teams who didn't compete in 2019 WC.


Hopefully he doesn’t leave in the same acromonious circumstances he did at Australia
 
Sri Lanka’s World Cup winning Australian coach Dav Whatmore was on Sunday appointed Baroda’s Ranji team coach as well as Director of Cricket, state body’s secretary Ajit Lele confirmed. The PTI had reported a couple of days back that Whatmore was set to become the Baroda coach having been in charge of Kerala team last season. Whatmore is a noted coach, who was also in charge of India U-19 team that won the junior World Cup in Malaysia back in 2008 under Virat Kohli’s captaincy.

BCA secretary Lele told PTI: “Whatmore has been appointed as coach of the Ranji trophy team and also the Director of Cricket for a period of two years.”

In his role as Director of Cricket, the age-group coaches, U-23, U-19 and U-16 will be guided by the Australian, Lele said.

It is learnt that after BCA offered him the job, Whatmore gave a go-ahead from his end and communicated his decision to former Mumbai batsman Shishir Hattangadi, who is the CEO of the Association. Following a dismal season, Whatmore had parted ways with Kerala after spending three years with the southern side.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...-of-cricket/story-6GI1DFnXHogbvLRZgPpoiM.html
 
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