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Any Ex-Muslims here?

why so insecure, always bring Allah in discussion its just shame that rather justify yourself you just seems to attack om other beliefs

What a bizarre response...whats insecure?...you asked what the alternative is to prayer...ive asked you to show the lack of futility of prayer...naturally in a discussion on prayer God was gonna pop up no...

So again I ask...those guys getting massacred in Burma...how useful are their prayers right now?...or should we rejoice in that they are dying martyrs and attaining the highest levels of heaven?...
 
I too often get stuck these overzealous tablighias trying to bring hidayat to the world. One of the things I can't help notice is how fat the immense majority of them is. Shows their lack of self-control and love for wordly pleasure that, every night, they stuff themselves full of halwas and gajrelas before burping with contentement like all is finally right in the world, the women are bored home, the children are not being corrupted by western science, the adulterers and the gays are going to be stoned soon and a billion poor people are starving in the world while you are eating for ten.

"He who keeps the law is a discerning son, but a companion of gluttons disgraces his father." (Proverb, 28:7)

Words to live by, muslim or christian. Never take a fat maulvi seriously.
 
So you have no problem with the dogma of religion? All the supernatural hierarchy, stories and even very controversial morality standards and norms directly coming from holy scriptures. Women are not equal to men, sex slaves are ok, marrying children is ok, not believing in God is worst of all crimes, capital punishment in public is way to go, women are men's property list goes on and on

How do you reconcile truth presented by religion with what we discovered through science?

I think you are doctor, how do you reconcile evolution with religion? - do you guys debate about that in medical college?

Last week I was talking to my friend's 8th grader son (they are very religious family) about science they learned in 8th grade. He mentioned that he is not going to study evolution that's harm and contradict Islam. I told him at least you are one better than your dad who does not even understand that science and Islam are in conflict. Islam and science view on evolution is way off from each other, both does not add up [emoji22][emoji22]

Yesterday, some body forward me some lecture transcripts of Numan Khan( so called modern moderate Mulvi, he mentioned that everybody of our body like heart take permission from Allah before beating. Now that is over the top. Some of that is suggested in Quran as well, this shows complete ignorance of Science.

My beef is not just with present religious leaders but the founders, they knew at some point in their life what they are doing. You cannot be hallucinated forever. If Mohammad, Jesus, Ram, Mosses existed today and preached same stuff they would not have being different from many of the babas, DEEPAK chopras, Mormon prophet, peer Sayed Sahib etc of this time. There is one guy in Mexico who calls himself reincarnation of Jesus, he has more than 100,000 followers, for them he is God. That is happening in 21th century, can you believe it? Like Tahir Quadri spend 9 years with Mohammad some how. He has 10s of thousands of followers if not more.

They were lucky to be in business in dark ages!!

Btw: all mainstream religions are political ideologies, they are not just personal beliefs, they are tools to shape policies and mold cultures. They cannot be immune from criticism. All these laws to protect religion is same as kings in those days protected themselves from all criticism. First step is freedom of expression. If you don't have intellect to answer the criticism then ready to be forgotten like any other literature. It does not make any sense to give anybody special treatment.


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Great post, can you please confirm if Quran mentions things against Science, I have seen it being refuted many times.. so wanted your opinion and sources.

On the highlighted part, I am not sure about Ram giving any "lecture" about how Science works or how humans should live their lives.. can you please cite some sources.. my knowledge is limited here.
 
[MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION]

There are certain aspects in Islam that don't make sense to me, and nor do I try to clutch at straws and justify them using half-cooked logic (like most people) because I feel as if it is my moral duty to prove that it is right even though I have no clue what I am talking about.

As far as evolution is concerned, there is an overwhelming evidence for it and it continues to strengthen with time. You are right, in the field of medicine, it is a very pertinent point of discussion and people spend hours and hours debating about it.

One thing I despise is when these Maulvis start talking about science, even though they don't have a clue. Their last resort is that Science is not advance enough yet to disprove Quran, and for me that is nothing but a cop-out.

However, here is the thing. Should I renounce my faith in Islam because of the theory of evolution or because of some other aspects that don't make sense to me?

What about my personal experiences that made me go back to Islam and strengthened my faith in Allah swt when I was on the brink? Do I have anything to lose by being a Muslim?

Suppose God does not exist and I die a believer, what do I lose? Nothing. No one is going to judge me after my death and I will simply decompose.

On the contrary, what if God exists and I die a disbeliever, what then?

Which case is better?
 
Not really, having state currency in your wallet has nothing to do with painting or wearing something with human representations or not. It was pretty clever to come up with that on the spot when questionned but it doesn't make sense as an argument. Pretty sure you mentionned it recently but, if not, it's called artistic liberty. :P

If I did, I did so because it was relevant to the point of discussion.

I disagree. It is not different at all to having pictures in your house which are haram as well. The issue is that it his highly inconvenient for them not to keep money in their wallet, so they have provided this self-satisfying excuse to justify their actions.

They will contently use non-Muslim products and non-Muslims technology because they cannot live without them and Muslims are not capable enough to make their own advancements, but will go into a frenzy when it comes to drinking Pepsi, which is easily avoidable.

Similarly, a lot of these tablighis are in the fabric business and sell female clothes that don't exactly comply with Islam, but hey its business.

These hypocrisies that they practice and preach don't work for me.
 
Why do you hate beards? Our prophet had a beard too. So you hate the fact that he had a beard?

I don't hate beards; I hate what beards mean to us.

Yes, Prophet Muhammad PBUH had a beard, but so did Abu Jahal and Abu Lahab. Everyone had beards in that society in that culture, and that is the reason why the Prophet PBUH had one and he had it long before he became a Prophet.

That is why beard is a sunnah, just like any other action or activity that the Prophet PBUH participated in. Why then has beard become so significant for us? Why has it become the license of piety? why do people with beards immediately become 'bhais' and we hope that they score runs against our team so that their averages are not disturbed? :amla

People have given sunnah a whole new meaning and don't look at the context of why the Prophet PBUH did certain things, and certain things he did were relevant to his time and society only.

Yes Islam is a universal and timeless religion, but let's not forget that Quran was revealed to a man living in 7th century Arabia. All his practices that were driven by his culture and society cannot be superimposed on today's society. The message remains the same, such as do good to other people, don't lie, cheat, commit adultery etc etc., but we take it the next level.

Another issue on which I have regularly argued with these Maulvis is the use of miswak. They tell people to refrain from using modern toothpastes because miswak is better and it is the sunnah of the Prophet.

Now my argument is that miswak is not the sunnah; cleaning your teeth and maintaining oral hygiene is. The reason the Prophet used miswak was because at that time, there was no Colgate and Miswak was the only means by which you could have cleaned your teeth. Secondly, just because the Prophet used it 1,400 years ago does not mean it is better than modern day toothpastes formulated in laboratories.

If miswak is a sunnah, then so is riding camels but of course, riding a camel is not convenient in this day and age for them. [/quote]

And you hate Maulvis because they tell you that painting is haram and you shouldn't eat with your left hand? Lol. What a silly reason to hate them. I know some Maulvis are evil but not all of them are.[/QUOTE]

Yes I abhor their views and I disagree with them. I despise what they preach and what others reason do you need? Isn't it enough? Does a mullah need to shoot me in the head for me to dislike him? I don't understand your reasoning.
 
I have myself dated a girl who is considered to be really pious and innocent by her parents, Hijabi and a Hafizah. And guess what she was the one who ditched me, However for all of her family she has been raised up such that she cant even stare at a guy, Now beat that for delusions.

It is normal for children growing up in such a closed environment to end up breaking their shackles out of frustration one way or the other. Now can his parents explain what good did the hijab and hifaz do?
 
I too often get stuck these overzealous tablighias trying to bring hidayat to the world. One of the things I can't help notice is how fat the immense majority of them is. Shows their lack of self-control and love for wordly pleasure that, every night, they stuff themselves full of halwas and gajrelas before burping with contentement like all is finally right in the world, the women are bored home, the children are not being corrupted by western science, the adulterers and the gays are going to be stoned soon and a billion poor people are starving in the world while you are eating for ten.

"He who keeps the law is a discerning son, but a companion of gluttons disgraces his father." (Proverb, 28:7)

Words to live by, muslim or christian. Never take a fat maulvi seriously.

Maulana tahir ashrafi comes to mind

in Islam we are told to do everything in moderation.

I had the misfortune of having been to quite a few tableeghi events between the ages of 13 and 17 as some of my aunts are married into very religious families where males are important people in the TJ. I got to see the hypocrisy of the se tableeghis a lot and thank God my parents are forward looking and educated and made sure I got the best education or else it is easy to be brainwashed especially when you are 13,14,15. When I got closer to 18 I totally saw their contradictions and hypocrisies and became confident enough to say to relatives that this is not sth I have the time for. And its a feeling that has become even stronger now but since I have been abroad for education I have not had any run ins with these tableeghis

The abiding memory I have of these events is Tariq jameel or Junaid Jamshed or Saeed Anwar sitting in Airconditioned rooms whereas the rest of the populace suffers in the heat outside. While in their comfortable surrounding they would backbite people and look down on others and have a constant supply of biryanis and kheer and sheermals etc. Every few hours they would go outside and give their bayans and then return to their lavish setting inside.
 
Maulana tahir ashrafi comes to mind

in Islam we are told to do everything in moderation.

I had the misfortune of having been to quite a few tableeghi events between the ages of 13 and 17 as some of my aunts are married into very religious families where males are important people in the TJ. I got to see the hypocrisy of the se tableeghis a lot and thank God my parents are forward looking and educated and made sure I got the best education or else it is easy to be brainwashed especially when you are 13,14,15. When I got closer to 18 I totally saw their contradictions and hypocrisies and became confident enough to say to relatives that this is not sth I have the time for. And its a feeling that has become even stronger now but since I have been abroad for education I have not had any run ins with these tableeghis

The abiding memory I have of these events is Tariq jameel or Junaid Jamshed or Saeed Anwar sitting in Airconditioned rooms whereas the rest of the populace suffers in the heat outside. While in their comfortable surrounding they would backbite people and look down on others and have a constant supply of biryanis and kheer and sheermals etc. Every few hours they would go outside and give their bayans and then return to their lavish setting inside.

This is a popular tactic used political discourse. By devaluing other sects/groups/leaders in a religious setting they aim to strengthen the zeal amongst their own followers, that they are being taught God's truth whilst those "others" are being led a stray. It allows them to maintain and exert further influence over their followers, who are intern less likely to question their teaching or be led astray as they are content in the "knowledge" that they are on the righteous path. You can pretty much get people to do whatever you want provided you use this tactic for long enough. It's all about indoctrination.
 
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It is normal for children growing up in such a closed environment to end up breaking their shackles out of frustration one way or the other. Now can his parents explain what good did the hijab and hifaz do?
Probably they will stop talking to her, beat her even or degrade her to make her feel shameful, Might even snatch phone and other facilities if they come to know as female are in view of izzat of the house. The problem is the delusion here, People are even unable to understand basic human nature logic, The personal likes dislikes, Comfort Zones, Opposite gender attractions, Importance of a fresh and free mind and so on. For instance this case of parents not believing or degrading their young girl for going out whilist its obviously natural but for them they brought her up in such a way that she couldnt even stare someone. We have turned religious and social matters to a joke.
 
I dislike ex muslims and I'm proud to say that.

Not fair you guys have a word when people hate you...Islamaphobe...

Us apostates need a word...i guess you're being apostaphobic :)...not sure how good that sounds...
 
Not fair you guys have a word when people hate you...Islamaphobe...

Us apostates need a word...i guess you're being apostaphobic :)...not sure how good that sounds...

The ones who call others Islamophobes are the biggest Islamophobes-in-reverse. :ghalib

gsi2-chp1-9.png

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
 
Now, that we've established your an adult I've got a couple of questions.

1. Why do you dislike them?

2. Why would your dislike be a source of pride?

Well because all they do is look to gain sympathy from the non Muslims, basically all the Islamophobes. Go to any religion forum and you see what I mean.

And I must admit that I also have a bias against them for leaving Islam.
 
Well because all they do is look to gain sympathy from the non Muslims, basically all the Islamophobes. Go to any religion forum and you see what I mean.

And I must admit that I also have a bias against them for leaving Islam.

Out of interest how do you define an Islamophobe?...
 
Well because all they do is look to gain sympathy from the non Muslims, basically all the Islamophobes. Go to any religion forum and you see what I mean.

And I must admit that I also have a bias against them for leaving Islam.

Bit of a blanket statement.

1. So, when someone says all these Muslims are terrorists at heart, just turn on the news or go on the internet you agree with that too?

2. Why would you have a bias against them for leaving Islam, when your belief is unshakeable?

3. You still didn't tell me why it is a source of pride for you?
 
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Yep although not there anymore...deciding where to move next in September...

My upbringing hasnt been conventional...generally I have been allowed to make my own decisions...explore things for myself...Islam wasnt something forced on me at all...wasnt a fixture in my home...

At 18 I was practicing and thought getting married would be a good idea...and might have done if not for a change of heart...

As for the apostasy thats a lot more recent...

Awesome, btw how was Moldova for you as a Pakistani if you dont mind me asking?
 
[MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION]

There are certain aspects in Islam that don't make sense to me, and nor do I try to clutch at straws and justify them using half-cooked logic (like most people) because I feel as if it is my moral duty to prove that it is right even though I have no clue what I am talking about.

As far as evolution is concerned, there is an overwhelming evidence for it and it continues to strengthen with time. You are right, in the field of medicine, it is a very pertinent point of discussion and people spend hours and hours debating about it.

One thing I despise is when these Maulvis start talking about science, even though they don't have a clue. Their last resort is that Science is not advance enough yet to disprove Quran, and for me that is nothing but a cop-out.

However, here is the thing. Should I renounce my faith in Islam because of the theory of evolution or because of some other aspects that don't make sense to me?

One of the purpose of education is not what to belief but how to investigate and digest information. Enterprise of Science does not make any sense if supernatural entities like God exists. Biggest question always have being how does such an entity got created?

Flirting with both Science and religion is also confusing, to me our society has not developed much trust in Science yet, partly because most scientist are from West, its not part of our culture yet, we are skeptical about the culture of free thinking, most of our elders associate free sex, nudity, drugs with free thinking culture, they also under mine the importance of free thinking mind. For them free thinking culture is evil it will take away their thousand years old traditions and religion.


God of Gaps

In software programing there is a very standard technique where you start simple and all kinds of error are caught by catch all exception, as your program mature, you have more detail exception handling, every category of error has special handling, in many cases you start taking proactive action rather than just printing error. this helps troubleshooting and make program robust. Which error to handle first depends on many factors like priority, frequency, how harder it is to fix etc

Supernatural God has sort of same purpose, we started off with everything is attributed to God, as we learn more, we put that phenomena in its own bucket. We have being doing a lot lately. The whole operation aspect of universe and our life has nothing to do with Super natural. The problem with Origins is that its harder to gather evidence of events that are rare or happened long time ago. Origin of life and Origin of Universe are such events, that are difficult to study because they are rare, that's why most theologian are now only focusing on injecting God in Origin process, they debate less about role of God in operation aspects. Although they have no explanation to offer as to how origins begin...

Role of God in Life and Death

One of the operation aspect of our life is well life and death. Most religions believe that God actively involves in life and death of every human beings. Every birth is directly by God's command and so is death.

If you look at last century, with the advancement of Science we have controlled lot of infant mortality, plus controlling diseases, improving food and clean water etc has led to exponential growth of our population. There is no religious explanation of why population has gone up so much? - specially why infants were dying at such a high percentage even that was true for noble men including Prophets. Why God suddenly change his population dial to let infants live, even for worst of people? - Average life span has increased which can be attributed to advancement via Science. There is clearly no connection of God Birth and Death.

Same is true for new problem we facing collectively as society like Climate Change.

Fear is not a path to progress

There is no involvement of God in day to day operation of Cosmos, which is suggested by Holy scriptures. They had political motivation to do that, my point is all those religions were wrong, we should respect them or not based on face value not because of fear. Fear is not a good motivator for us to progress. Fear was useful tool, when masses were illiterate, like institute of military, where purpose is to build obedient solider. This does not work very well for entire society. Even in USA most of the military R&D is outside the military institution, because they sucks at innovation...



What about my personal experiences that made me go back to Islam and strengthened my faith in Allah swt when I was on the brink? Do I have anything to lose by being a Muslim?

Suppose God does not exist and I die a believer, what do I lose? Nothing. No one is going to judge me after my death and I will simply decompose.

On the contrary, what if God exists and I die a disbeliever, what then?

Which case is better?

Everybody has Atheist in them

By this logic, what if your religion is wrong? - You are screwed anyway. Its like you are filling a multi-choice question and has no idea which one is right, not just what are the test criteria, is there a negative marking? - Do you really want to live in such a fear?

Every religious person is Atheist about every other religion except their own. Atheist go one God farther. :)

I have seen people ridicule others believes but never apply same yard stick to their own...
 
Bit of a blanket statement.

1. So, when someone says all these Muslims are terrorists at heart, just turn on the news or go on the internet you agree with that too?

2. Why would you have a bias against them for leaving Islam, when your belief is unshakeable?

3. You still didn't tell me why it is a source of pride for you?

1) I don't really care.

2) If you study and understand Islam properly, you would never leave Islam.

3) Because they left Islam. That's my reason for disliking them and I guess that's the reason for my source of pride.
 
1) I don't really care.

2) If you study and understand Islam properly, you would never leave Islam.

3) Because they left Islam. That's my reason for disliking them and I guess that's the reason for my source of pride.

1. So it's ok to dislike someone if they think differently to you?

2. Are you claiming that it's an achievement in disliking someone hence you derive pride?
 
1) I don't really care.

2) If you study and understand Islam properly, you would never leave Islam.

3) Because they left Islam. That's my reason for disliking them and I guess that's the reason for my source of pride.

You need help.
 
I'm one too. Had a very religious upbringing seeing my parents were Muslim scholars. Obviously most of my siblings are very religious too. One might say I'm the black sheep of the family. My mother's still trying to re-convert or even re-awake the Islam in me since we're all "born muslims", at every opportunity.
 
1) I don't really care.

2) If you study and understand Islam properly, you would never leave Islam.

3) Because they left Islam. That's my reason for disliking them and I guess that's the reason for my source of pride.

So, apparently it's ok to disown your country but not your religion. Got it.
 
1) I don't really care.

2) If you study and understand Islam properly, you would never leave Islam.

3) Because they left Islam. That's my reason for disliking them and I guess that's the reason for my source of pride.

What's your age bro?

Genuine question.
 
1) I don't really care.

2) If you study and understand Islam properly, you would never leave Islam.

3) Because they left Islam. That's my reason for disliking them and I guess that's the reason for my source of pride.

How many Christians who read the Bible properly, leave Christianity?

The point is that you are a Muslim already and believe that Islam is the true religion, therefore a lot of aspects of Islam that won't make sense to you from a neutral perspective are ignored by you now because you are not willing to accept them.
 
1) I don't really care.

2) If you study and understand Islam properly, you would never leave Islam.

3) Because they left Islam. That's my reason for disliking them and I guess that's the reason for my source of pride.

There is no compulsion in religion. God has given them that choice, who are you to hate them?
 
Awesome, btw how was Moldova for you as a Pakistani if you dont mind me asking?

I'm of mixed heritage and British so I wouldn't say I really pass for Pakistani anyway...little things like tattoos and piercings also contribute to that...

I think there is a massive difference in terms of defining experience based on where you are from rather than your ethnicity...being British certainly gives you a lot of brownie points...for instance being a black guy from Britain would probably garner a more positive reaction than a black guy from London...

There is a reasonable Arab expat population here...they have money...they love blondes...and there are enough blondes who love money so they are happy :) ...

Moldova itself is cool...nice people...summers are lovely...very green...24 hour places to eat and drink...good food....gorgeous women...downsides are toughish working conditions and brutal winters...-28 and the moisture in the air makes it even colder...
 
There is no compulsion in religion. God has given them that choice, who are you to hate them?

There is no compulsion in Islam in a widely misrepresented idea...

You can't compel a non Muslim to become a Muslim...
You most certainly can compel a Muslim to remain Muslim...
 
1) I don't really care.

2) If you study and understand Islam properly, you would never leave Islam.

3) Because they left Islam. That's my reason for disliking them and I guess that's the reason for my source of pride.

Well for your info I find most apostates I know to be people who have actually studied things in depth...and for that reason left the religion...I find many Muslims know absolutely jack about their faith which is why they don't have to confront the difficult questions raised by actually reading it...

I also find people with your views...many of whom have never even read the Quran themselves...

And also 21 isn't young...dunno why people are giving you the benefit of the doubt...
 
I'm of mixed heritage and British so I wouldn't say I really pass for Pakistani anyway...little things like tattoos and piercings also contribute to that...

I think there is a massive difference in terms of defining experience based on where you are from rather than your ethnicity...being British certainly gives you a lot of brownie points...for instance being a black guy from Britain would probably garner a more positive reaction than a black guy from London...

There is a reasonable Arab expat population here...they have money...they love blondes...and there are enough blondes who love money so they are happy :) ...

Moldova itself is cool...nice people...summers are lovely...very green...24 hour places to eat and drink...good food....gorgeous women...downsides are toughish working conditions and brutal winters...-28 and the moisture in the air makes it even colder...

Ce faceți acolo? Daca pot sa intreb.
 
salut :)...am fost profesor de engleza...esti in Moldova?...

Buna!, nu am fost la chisinau cat o data cand am fost student la Iasi si am intalnit sotia mea atunci. Acum sunt in Germania.

Din cand esti acolo si cum merge treaba cu slujba. Sper ca tot e ok.
 
Buna!, nu am fost la chisinau cat o data cand am fost student la Iasi si am intalnit sotia mea atunci. Acum sunt in Germania.

Din cand esti acolo si cum merge treaba cu slujba. Sper ca tot e ok.

Locuiam in Chisinau pentru un ani...am terminat in Septembrie...Cand ai fost acolo?...este sotia Moldoveanca?...sunt vizita in August...iti place Chisinau?...
 
Locuiam in Chisinau pentru un ani...am terminat in Septembrie...Cand ai fost acolo?...este sotia Moldoveanca?...sunt vizita in August...iti place Chisinau?...

Vai, am fost acolo cand am avut 19 ani cam 15 ani inainte. Nu ea e romanca. Da me a placut foarte mult acolo. Nu ai fost la Romania sau cum
 
Vai, am fost acolo cand am avut 19 ani cam 15 ani inainte. Nu ea e romanca. Da me a placut foarte mult acolo. Nu ai fost la Romania sau cum

Da...Bucuresti, Brasov si Iasi...Brasov este frumos...ai studiat stomatologie?
 
Da...Bucuresti, Brasov si Iasi...Brasov este frumos...ai studiat stomatologie?

Nu am invațat medicina general pentru 3 ani dar dupa practicala cu cadavre nu mi am placut si am schimbat la IT si am studiat in Londra.
 
Nu am invațat medicina general pentru 3 ani dar dupa practicala cu cadavre nu mi am placut si am schimbat la IT si am studiat in Londra.

Well at least you met the wife :) ...do you ever return?...
 
Well at least you met the wife :) ...do you ever return?...

To Moldova? No, I didn't have the opportunity. I've been busy globetrotting to other parts of the planet. I do find myself in Romania once an year for one reason or the other though. Where are you residing now?
 
To Moldova? No, I didn't have the opportunity. I've been busy globetrotting to other parts of the planet. I do find myself in Romania once an year for one reason or the other though. Where are you residing now?

Back in London for the summer but heading to Spain next...will be in Moldova again this summer and might pop to Sibiu and Sighisoara...wanted to see those last time i was in Romania...
 
Ex-Muslims

What do you think of them? Do of know of any in real life? Are there any on this forum? What made you leave? :misbah3
 
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