dzor
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I know a few too, I'm not that religious either I guess
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Contact the PP Team
Any Ex-Muslims here?
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I know a few too, I'm not that religious either I guess
Cpt. Rishwat
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Neither am I but I'm not anti-religious either. I'm more zen than a Burmese buddhist.
Pantani
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This ought to keep you busy for the next couple of hours. http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran
the Great Khan
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totally agree. We should assess our children accordingly and if they don't want to be a doctor or lawyer perhaps the liberal arts is a better route? coupled with islam this can be a good path to take. e.g. Hamza yusufs Zaytuna college in the US is trying to buck the trend amongst parents to encourage the liberal arts...
Sattarbuksh
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Ex-Muslim: My parents don't want me 'to burn in hell'
In the UK religious freedom is a human right, but leaving your family's religion can still mean isolation and loneliness.
Sara has been speaking to Newsbeat about what it was like when she told her parents two years ago that she no longer wanted to be a Muslim.
"You feel like you're betraying everyone. Because no one leaves Islam," she says.
She says they kicked her out at 17 and she's not lived with them since.
In some countries, such as Qatar and Saudi Arabia, leaving Islam - or "apostasy" carries the death penalty.
"Most people I talk to feel like they're the only ex-Muslim in the world," says Sara.
As she got older she realised "that Islam didn't quite fit" with her thinking but she kept it a secret - lying about praying and studying Arabic.
"They would try and catch me out. Once I came downstairs, my parents asked me if I had prayed and I said 'yes, yes, of course, obviously'."
"They were like, 'You do know you're still wearing your shoes'."
Muslims remove their shoes before prayer to wash their feet.
"That was pretty awkward," she says.
It became hard to hide.
"I just didn't think I could do it. So I very seriously considered suicide. It's difficult because you sort of give up," she says.
When she told her parents they burst into tears.
"You want to hug them, but you're the source of your pain," she says.
"They thought the main reason I wanted to leave was alcohol and pork and things like that but obviously that was not even a factor in my decision.
"It's like arguing with a drunk person. You can't do anything right. Everything you believe is wrong."
"They don't want you to burn in hell eternally, so I can see their point, but it's not going to change my mind."
Soon after starting university, Sara joined a group which tries to help ex-Muslims by giving talks and offering advice.
"Just knowing you're not alone is enough to help some. Normally they've not told their family and they're like 'oh my god you exist'."
Imtiaz Shams, who runs the group Faith to Faithless, knows of around 200 ex-Muslims in London and another 100 around the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33005214/ex-muslim-my-parents-dont-want-me-to-burn-in-hell
In the UK religious freedom is a human right, but leaving your family's religion can still mean isolation and loneliness.
Sara has been speaking to Newsbeat about what it was like when she told her parents two years ago that she no longer wanted to be a Muslim.
[utube]i2lYgsX4kkc[/utube]
"You feel like you're betraying everyone. Because no one leaves Islam," she says.
She says they kicked her out at 17 and she's not lived with them since.
In some countries, such as Qatar and Saudi Arabia, leaving Islam - or "apostasy" carries the death penalty.
"Most people I talk to feel like they're the only ex-Muslim in the world," says Sara.
As she got older she realised "that Islam didn't quite fit" with her thinking but she kept it a secret - lying about praying and studying Arabic.
"They would try and catch me out. Once I came downstairs, my parents asked me if I had prayed and I said 'yes, yes, of course, obviously'."
"They were like, 'You do know you're still wearing your shoes'."
Muslims remove their shoes before prayer to wash their feet.
"That was pretty awkward," she says.
It became hard to hide.
"I just didn't think I could do it. So I very seriously considered suicide. It's difficult because you sort of give up," she says.
When she told her parents they burst into tears.
"You want to hug them, but you're the source of your pain," she says.
"They thought the main reason I wanted to leave was alcohol and pork and things like that but obviously that was not even a factor in my decision.
"It's like arguing with a drunk person. You can't do anything right. Everything you believe is wrong."
"They don't want you to burn in hell eternally, so I can see their point, but it's not going to change my mind."
Soon after starting university, Sara joined a group which tries to help ex-Muslims by giving talks and offering advice.
"Just knowing you're not alone is enough to help some. Normally they've not told their family and they're like 'oh my god you exist'."
Imtiaz Shams, who runs the group Faith to Faithless, knows of around 200 ex-Muslims in London and another 100 around the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33005214/ex-muslim-my-parents-dont-want-me-to-burn-in-hell
For all 4 Imams of the 4 schools of jurisprudence Apostasy was akin to treason, if A apostate wanted to leave the State he could he would just have to hide his apostasy.
The religion is perfect, The prophet is the perfect role model but the Muslims can never reach perfectness that is limited to the prophets who are sinless but we should always strive to become better.
Ar7alan
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I have nothing against them ... just interested to know ... what is logical error in Islam which force them to becone ex Muslim.
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Ar7alan
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I opened the site and found this site has translated the Quran wrong .... any better site
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Most (if not all) religions are based on Faith ( belief without evidence), this itself is fundamental problem. Like racism, sexism, patriotism or any other faith based ideology, is worst way to educated yourself about unknown. Faith erodes humans most important survival tool, intelligence. What is the point of intelligence if you are not going to use it? We cannot build enterprise of knowledge on faith. You have to challenge your faith to discover truth.
Fundamental difference between science and religion is that one relies on evidence other on faith. They are opposite of each other. More scientific society will get culturally weaker faith based ideologies will become. Which has exactly what happened in western world and in a century or so should happen in east as well.
Islam and Quran is wrong about many specific details about evolution of life or universe. If you study Quran critically, you will realize 80% of material is old stories that are copy pasted from past cultures with 10% of its own spin. Most of it is vague like horoscope reading, you cannot derived any meaningful knowledge from it. That is true of most holy books. If these books were so great at discovering and driving real world then churches, mosques were centers of scientific innovations for 1000s of years.
The verses that are specific are not just inaccurate but way off the tangent from real world. I have detailed many of those fundamental errors in understanding of physic, chemistry and universe in many threads on PP, with no replies from the faithful.
For example:
Quran and other holy books try to suggest that many of the natural disasters (earth quakes, hurricanes, thunders etc) are act of God to show his anger and tools of punishments. This is also not new concept, all pervious literature suggests the same. But we know all this is non sense, universe is not run by bunch of angles, we know in much greater details how natural world works. That is source of most of modern science and technology. We know geology and atmosphere of earth lot better today than 1400 years ago, we do know quakes, hurricane etc happens on planets that don't even have life. It has nothing to do with sin but more of planets physiology, gravity, distance from star etc. 1400 years ago people did not understand those details they attributed it to supernatural God, they were all wrong explaining physical phenomenas and real world so is Islam.
Quran's understanding of Earth, atmosphere, stars, sun, moon is wrong. Like many other holy books Quran has also grossly underestimated the scale of universe. Well Quran does not even describe concept of universe, forget about scale of it. Author of Quran also does not understand that sun is also a star, and never clearly mention who revolves around who. Author also does not seems to understand the logic behind day and night or seasons, there is no supernatural involve in those phenomenas ( no angle magic buddy), in this century its 4th grade physic, 1400 years ago it was mystery attributed to God.
Scale and age of universe is also grossly under estimated in Quran. Author of Quran created universe (or whatever is equivalent of it) in 6 days, where as age of universe is 13+ Billions years. Poor author of Quran cannot even write such a big number because exponents were not invented. There are no big (billion, trillions) or small( micro, nano, pico) numbers in Quran. Where as we know scale of universe is either too big or too small.
Quran is also completely wrong about evolution of life and evolutionary physic, like every other author of Iron Age.
Let's not talk about morality and ethics, that's a whole different can of worms.
I can go on and on...clearly it appears more and more of a conman's job, design to manipulate the ignorant like any other Faith base literature. Why should I respect it? Why should I make myself or entire society hostage of such a primitive literature??? - why we cannot move on??
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chacha kashmiri
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1 - The Almighty said: (Then He turned to the sky when it was smoke) separated 11:
- Made these verses in the conference's scientific miracle of the Qur'an, which was held in Cairo, and when he heard a Japanese professor (Yoshidi Kosei) that verse got surprised and said, did not reach science and scientists to the stunning fact only recently, after the cameras caught the satellite strong images and movies live show and a star is composed of a large mass of thick dark smoke and then had (if our information, the former by these movies and live images were based on false hypotheses that the sky was fog) and said (this may be added to the miracles of the Quran miracle Amazing confirmed that you tell about it is the God who created the universe billions of years ago).
2 - The Almighty said: (not those who disbelieve known that the heavens(sky) and the earth were sewn together) of the Prophets 3:
- I was stunned scientists in the Islamic Youth Conference held in Riyadh in 1979 peak when they heard the verse and said: It was really the early universe is a nebulous cloud of smoke gas potential contiguous then turned gradually to the millions of millions of stars filled the sky. Then told the American Professor (Palmer), said that what was said can not in any way be attributed to a person who died 1400 years ago because he did not have telescopes and not space ships help to discover these facts, it must be, who told Muhammad is God and has announced Professor (Palmer) his conversion to Islam at the end of the conference.
3 - The Almighty said: (and made from water every living thing ,do you not believe in) the Prophets 30:
- And modern science has proven that any organism consists of a high proportion of the water and if he lost 25 percent of its water, it inevitably will die because all chemical reactions within the cells of any living organism is not only in aqueous medium. Where to Muhammad may Allah bless him and grant him peace in this medical information??
4 - The Almighty said: (and the sky we have built ,and still going wide) 47:
- And modern science has proved that the sky continuously increase the capacity of it is told Muhammad may Allah bless him and peace of this fact in those times, backward? Would have telescopes and satellites?! Or is it a revelation from God, the Creator of this great universe??? Is not this irrefutable evidence that the Qur'an is God right???
5 - The Almighty said: (the sun and a resting place for the estimation of Allah) Yassin 38:
- And has proved by modern science that the sun traveling at 43200 miles per hour and as the distance between us and the sun 92 million miles, we see it fixed and does not move and was surprised Professor U.S. to hear the verse of the Koran and said, I find it very difficult to imagine that science Quran which to achieve these scientific facts which have not been able only recently.
6 - The Almighty said: (and who want to mislead him he makes his chest so narrow, as if breathging up in the sky) cattle 125:
- And now when I get in an airplane and fly away with you and step up in the sky What do you feel? Do you feel tightness in the chest? Fberoik who told Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace so 1400 years ago? Did have a spacecraft of its own which could be unaware of this phenomenon physical? Or is it a revelation from God???
7 - The Almighty and them is night, We withdraw therefrom the day, and if they are in darkness) Yassin 37, and the Almighty said: (and have adorned the lower heaven with lamps) King 5:
- As indicated by the holy verses the universe is steeped in the dark dark and we were in broad daylight on the surface of the earth, and I have watched the scientists the earth and the rest of the planets of the solar lit in broad daylight while the heavens around submerged in darkness it is if he knows days of Muhammad God and peace that the darkness is the case dominates the universe? And that these galaxies and stars are not only lights a small and weak hardly dispel the darkness of the universe, plunging the surrounding seeming Kzeinp lamps and no more? And when I read these verses to hearing one of American Scientists stunned admiration and increased admiration and surprise surprise majesty and greatness of the Quran and said it can not be mentioned except in the words of sucking mm of the universe, the knower secrets and Dakkaigah.
8 - The Almighty said: (and made the sky a roof preserved) Prophets 32:
- And has proved by modern science and the existence of the Earth's atmosphere, which is protected from harmful solar rays and meteorites destroyed when touching these meteorites the Earth's atmosphere, it is raging because of friction with the tags seems to us the night in the form of blocks, a small flare fell from the sky very quickly, estimated at about 150 miles in the second and then extinguished quickly and disappear, and this is what we call Balchb, who told Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace that the sky Calcagaf save Earth from meteorites and solar radiation harmful? Is this not evidence that peremptory this Qur'an, when the creator of this great universe???
9 - The Almighty said: (and the mountains as pegs?) Report 7, and the Almighty said: (and Throw me in the earth lest it should shake with you) Luqman 10:
- Since the earth's crust and from the mountains and plateaus and deserts over the depths of liquid and soft animation (known as Layer cinema), the earth's crust, and what it Westmead and constantly moving and will result in movement of cracks and huge earthquakes destroy everything .. But this did not happen .. Why?
- Has been shown recently that two-thirds of any mountain rooted in the depths of the earth and in the (layer cinema) and only a third of a prominent above-ground therefore likeness of God Almighty mountains that hold the tent peg land as in the previous verse, and has made these verses at the Muslim youth, which was held in Riyadh in 1979 and has astonished professor America (Palmer) and the world geological Japanese (Slardo) and they said it is not reasonable in any way to be the words of a human, especially that it was said 1400 years ago because we did not arrive at the scientific facts only after extensive studies with the aid of technology of the twentieth century that were not in an era when there was ignorance and underdevelopment throughout the land) also attended the discussion of the world (Frank Bryce) Counsel American President (Carter) and specialized in geology and the sea and said, agape can not Mohammed become familiar with this information and must be the pinnacle of them is the creator of this universe, the knower secrets and laws and designs).
10 - The Almighty said: (view of the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed and are going through a cloud over the work of God, who disposes of all things) till 88:
- We all know that mountains are stationary in place, but we if we rise from the earth away from the attractiveness and atmosphere we will see the earth revolves rapidly (100 mph) and then we will see the mountains and to be going functioning of the clouds means that the movement is not self but of the motion of the Earth just like clouds, which does not move himself, but driven by the wind, and this is evidence of the movement of the Earth, who told Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace this? Is not God??
11 - Almighty said: (Marj Bahrain meet them * do not transgress isthmus) Rahman: 19-20:
- Has been shown through recent studies show that each sea its own special characteristics which distinguish it from other seas Khdp salinity and weight Allen awareness of water until the color of which varies from one place to another because of variations in temperature and depth and other factors, and stranger than this discovery of the delicate white line is taking shape by the confluence of water, Bahrain each other and this is exactly what is stated in the previous verses, and when discussed in the Qur'anic text with the world of the U.S. Professor of the Sea (Hill) and also the German geologist (Schroeder) responded, saying that this divine science one hundred percent and its trunks between and it is impossible for a person my mother's simple Kmamed be mastered this knowledge in an age dominated by the backwardness and ignorance.
12 - The Almighty said: (and we send the winds fertilizing) Al-Hijr 22:
- And this is proven by modern science as the benefits of wind they carry the pollen grains to pollinate the flowers that will later bear fruit, it is told Muhammad, peace be upon him, and that the wind is inoculated flowers? Is not that evidence that this Qur'aan is the word of God???
13 - The Almighty said: (more mature skin Bdlnahm skins to taste the punishment) of women 56:
- And modern science has proven that the particles competent physical pain and heat are present in the skin layer alone, and with that the skin will burn with what is beneath the muscles, etc., but the Koran does not mention it because the pain is specific to the skin layer alone. It is told Muhammad to this medical information? Is not God??
14 - The Almighty said: (or Kzlmat in a dark place fraught with waves topped by waves, topped by clouds of darkness on each other if they are removed his hand was barely sees and of God did not make him light his final abode of light) the light 40:
- Could not ancient man to dive more than 15 meters because it was unable to survive without breathing more than two minutes and because the veins of his body would explode from the pressure of the water and after that there submarines in the twentieth century, scientists found that the seabed very dark and discovered that each sea Xie two layers of water, the first is very deep and dark and covered by the waves very moving and another layer surface and is also a dark and covered by waves that we see on the surface of the sea, and was surprised the American world (Hill) of the greatness of the Quran and raised eyebrows when it was discussed with the miracle found in the second half of the verse he says: (the darkness of clouds on each other if they are removed his hand was barely seen) and said that such a cloud has not witnessed the Arabian Peninsula and this never bright weather does not occur only in North America, Russia and the States Scandinavian near the pole, and which were not discovered days of Mohammed may Allah bless him and grant him peace and must be the Holy Word of God.
15 - The Almighty said: (* Romans have been defeated in the lowest land) Romans 2-3:
- The minimum land: spot lower on the surface of the earth and have overcome the Romans in Palestine near the Dead Sea, and when he discussed this verse with the geologist famous (Palmer) in the international scientific conference held in Riyadh in 1979 denied this immediately and announced to the world that there many places on the Earth's surface is lower asked scientists to make sure of his information, and to review the geographical Mkttanh surprised the world (Palmer) map of maps showing topography of Palestine and has been traced by the thick arrow points to the Dead Sea area and has written at its peak (the lowest spot on Earth's surface) were perplexed Professor and declared his admiration and appreciation, and stressed that this Quran must be the word of God.
16 - The Almighty said: (Ikhalqkm in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation of the creature in the darkness of three meaning) 6:
- It was not Mohammed a doctor, and he could not dissect a pregnant woman, and did not receive lessons in Anatomy and Embryology, and even did this science known before the nineteenth century, the meaning of the verse is quite clear Modern science has proven that there are three membranes surrounding the fetus These are:
- First: the membranes that surround the conjoined fetus is composed of the membrane that makes up the lining of the uterus and placental membrane and membrane TB and these three membranes form the darkness first sticking together.
- Second: the wall of the womb and the second is the darkness. Third: the abdominal wall and the third is the darkness. Where to Muhammad Muhammad, peace in this medical information???
17 - The Almighty said: (Did you see that God is delighted to extend the Clouds, then composing himself, then it turned into rubble, you see the rain issuing out of which come down from heaven and from the mountains where the cold afflicts by whom and for whom he will spend almost not burqa goes Balobesar) light 43:
- Scientists say: begin to form cumulus clouds in several cells a few snippets of cotton blown by wind to incorporate some of them in some of the problem of cloud giant a mountain as high as 45 thousand feet and the summit will be a cloud too cold for the base, and because of this difference in temperature created eddies leads to the formation hail at the height of the cloud shape km mountainous lead to electrical discharges fired sparks spectacular light affect pilots in the sky including page called (the temporary blindness) and this is what the verse perfectly. Is Muhammad may Allah bless him and grant him peace can come of this information is accurate as of him???
18 - The Almighty said: (and they stayed in their Cave three hundred years and adding nine) Cave 25:
- The meaning of the verse is that the people of the cave had stayed in their cave 300 years, solar and 309 lunar years, and was sure to mathematicians that the solar year is longer than the lunar year is 11 days, if we multiply the 11-day 300 years the result is 3300 and dividing this figure by the number day of the year (365) output becomes 9 years. Would the prophet Mohammed peace be upon him to know the length of stay of the people of the cave lunar and solar calendar???
19 - The Almighty and is something that does not take away the flies Istnvdhuh than twice the student and required) Al-Hajj 73:
- And has proven to modern science and secretions when the flies to be captured so as to prevent the material is completely different to the picked up so we can not know the truth of the material picked up and so we can not exhaust this article, including all. Muhammad, who told this too? Not God Almighty is the world's minutes, who told him things?
20 - The Almighty said: (and I have created man from a quintessence of clay * Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed * then created sperm into a clot the clot into bones and clothed the bones with flesh, then we produced it another best of creators) believers, 11-13,
And the Almighty said: (O people, if you are in doubt of the expedition then we have created you from dust, then from a sperm and then from a clot, then from the reconstructed embryo, and unformed to show you) Hajj 5:
- From the previous verses it is clear that the creation of man is in phases as follows:
1 - Soil: The evidence for that, and that all the mineral elements and organic composition and the human body found in soil and mud and the second guide that will become dust after his death no different from the soil in anything.
2 - sperm: and that is not honoring the wall of the egg and the resulting fertilized egg (sperm gamete), which incite divisions phones that make sperm gametes grow and multiply so that the embryo of an integrated, as He says: (Verily We created man from a sperm gametes) Rights 2.
3 - leech: After the cell divisions that occur in the fertilized egg shaped cluster of cells similar in form micro-berry fruit (clot) which is characterized by its ability to hung on the wall of the uterus to draw the necessary food from the blood vessels in it.
4 - embryo: Taatkhalq cells of the embryo to give the limb buds and the members and organs of the body different is composed if cells reconstructed the membranes surrounding Balamadgp (membrane placental as well as villi that will become the salvation of later), they cells unformed, and under study microscopic indicate that the fetus at the stage of the embryo seems like a piece of meat or chewed gum and teeth and marked Odharas Madgp.
Not confirm this verse: (from the embryo, synthetic and non-synthetic) Was Muhammad may Allah bless him and grant him peace Device (ECHO) has defined through this fact?!
5 - The advent of bone: scientifically proven that the bones begin to appear at the end of the embryo stage and this coincides with the order in which said verse (Fajlguena lump bones).
6 - Apparel bone meat: I have proved that modern embryology muscle (meat) to be formed, the bones a few weeks, and clothing associated muscle acidifies the skin of the fetus and this fully agrees with him: (and clothed the bones with flesh).
When supervised by the seventh week of pregnancy, stages of completion are creating the fetus has ended and became a form akin to unborn baby and needs some time to grow and complete its growth and its length and weight and take a question that has known.
And now: Is it possible for Mohammed Mohammed may Allah bless him and grant him peace to make this medical information and had lived in an era where there is ignorance and backwardness???
I've looked these verses of the great conference miracle medical VII of the Koran in 1982 and what the world heard of Thai (Tajmas) specialized knowledge of the embryos in those verses even announced immediately and without hesitation that there is no god but Allah, Mohammad is the Messenger of God, also attended the conference, Prof. famous ( Keith Moore) is a senior professor of American and Canadian universities and said (it is impossible to be a prophet knew all these minute details on the stages of creating a perception of the fetus and of itself, and must have been in contact with the senior scientist briefed on the various sciences, not and is God) and has announced his conversion to Islam at the conference held in 1983 and line Qur'an and miracles in Arabic in the university's famous book, taught to medical students in the faculties of America and Canada.
Vayuu
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No offence to anyone here, but has any of the pakistani member gone through views of kabir on this topic, he use to criticise both hindu ' s and muslims,
"The pathar poojay rab mile for hindus and kankar pathar jodke masjid liyo banaye doha comes to my mind.
"The pathar poojay rab mile for hindus and kankar pathar jodke masjid liyo banaye doha comes to my mind.
Sandeep
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Obviously, isn't it? Followers set examples and that is what other people perceive. If a guy is calling names like 'fool' etc, just for asking and engaging him in a discussion, what kind of an example is he setting?
it is not right- but even the mass media- it is like they enjoy portraying Islam negatively and highlight the negative aspects.
Obviously they have their own interests. Take for example what followed Malalas shooting against what is happening in Burma.
Both things are really bad but the difference in ''outcry'' is almost tangible
^ it is disproportionate in how muslims are really like and how they are viewed by wider society (due to portrayal in media/political world)
There are extremists in the UK who 99% off muslims detest and they get so much air time it is not even funny. They should be kicked out for what they say and they are giving interviews on national TV and being invited to newsnight!!
I just ask myself why!
There are extremists in the UK who 99% off muslims detest and they get so much air time it is not even funny. They should be kicked out for what they say and they are giving interviews on national TV and being invited to newsnight!!
I just ask myself why!
Sandeep
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I understand what you're saying. But is there a better way? I'm not talking about mass media, but about the actual people..
junaid.ahmed
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a question to atheists & agnostics that we muslim/hindu individuals when in some severe problems call Allah or respective Gods to save or solve what you peoples do??
Hamza_
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[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] Why did you almost loose faith at that time?
The more something is highlighted to a person and the more exposure he gets to it , it will affect ur psychological make up and how u think about those that associated with whatever it is that is being portrayed. Now It is such that the word terrorism is reserved for those who happen to be muslims
As an individual if I am wronged, I would not look to associate the wrong doer to a group and allow myself to think that the whole group or community is wrong,
But we have come way to far down this road
Lol and how often does he help you?...if your situation sorts itself its cos of you...or some other factors but you thank God...a doctor saves you...why it must be God that did it
...I'm sure those Nepalese were praying to God too...fat good it did them...the Rohingya praying to Allah for protection as they get cleansed...
In short when i have severe problems i try and sort them...i dont ask some guy in the sky to help me...especially since when that guy in the sky does jack for me this is his wonderful way of testing me
...
Sandeep
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We believe in ourselves to overcome our problems. We believe that there's no supernatural power somewhere that can help us.
junaid.ahmed
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Lol and how often does he help you?...if your situation sorts itself its cos of you...or some other factors but you thank God...a doctor saves you...why it must be God that did it
I'm sure those Nepalese were praying to God too...fat good it did them...the Rohingya praying to Allah for protection as they get cleansed...
In short when i have severe problems i try and sort them...i dont ask some guy in the sky to help me...especially since when that guy in the sky does jack for me this is his wonderful way of testing me
lets assume you are stuck in the center of the road with a lorry is just microseconds away from you, will you let yourself to the lap of death or pray to someone who can save you? Dnt tell me that you will use your wisdom there
Sidilicious
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I hope this is sarcastic. If not, really poor post towards other humans, irrespective of their believes.
As someone who has actually been hit by a vehicle I can say i didnt exactly have time to think or pray...so somewhat of a ridiculous point to make really...
And what use is prayer for life or death anyway?...when God wants to take your life he will regardless of your feelings on the matter...how many thousands of people die daily who God doesnt give a monkeys about...how many children die without even beginning their test...our apparent purpose on this earth?...what is God doing to allay the suffering of most of the world who live in poverty...fact is he does jack...
The Mutazila version of Islam at least makes Allah out to be better...he doesn't interfere in the world...the fact that you believe Allah interferes in the world simply shows him to be the tyrant that he is...oh wait...all this horror is 'testing' people
...Lol well isn't that the general perspective of apostates...
Instead of pretending to be a Muslim, go and tell your parents you coward
Mamoon
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The general behavior and attitude of the Mullahs and so-called religious people. They drove me away from Islam, before I realized that you don't need any of these people for guidance; all you need is your head, heart and will, and Allah swt will guide you Himself.
Hamza_
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Thats interesting bro. What did you feel like at that time? And how were these elements contributing to you being driven away from Islam?
dzor
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Interesting. So is religion now a private matter for you bro?
My family know my views.
Sitting on the internet and justifying murder behind a keyboard like a warrior makes you the biggest coward here. Disgusting bigots like you are the reason why our country is in a mess that its in.
And I don't pretend to be anything you utter troll. I don't live my guise under the joke of being a Muslim.
People like you drove a lot of us away from religion too, and I am glad talking to people like only makes me feel my decision was correct. Thank you!
Mamoon
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I felt confused. I never entertained the idea that there might be no God at all, but I was questioning if I am following the right path. There were also certain things within Islam that I didn't understand and appreciate, and there still are certain things that don't make sense to me, but I don't think about it anymore because I feel content that I am on the right track.
They contributed in driving me away from Islam because when I saw the double standards, hypocrisy, rude behavior etc. of these so-called Maulanas and the sexism that they spread, I wondered if this is what Islam teaches you, then I don't want to have any part in it.
I started doing my own research and started to interpret things in the manner that made sense to me. Religious people around me in my social circle call me 'modified Muslim' and unqualified to interpret religion and that is why I should not reject the company of tablighis and maulvis (there are too many where I live and I interact them on daily basis when it comes to my professional life) and learn the true way and basics of Islam from them, but what they preach does not make sense to me and I find it unpractical in the world of today, which is why I stick to what I feel right.
Whether I am right or wrong, time will tell, but at least I am not believing in things that have been enforced on me by my society even though I don't accept it with my heart.
Is not to be honest about them rather than pretend just to be in the good books of the people who claim themselves to be esteemed learners of Islam?
Sums up your deranged mindset, I say bravo, sir!
Mamoon
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Yes, I would say so. I never question anyone on their religious practices and nor do I encourage/discourage someone, but if someone seeks my opinion or if there is a discussion or a debate then I do openly tell people what I think. If it offends them than that is their problem.
Generally speaking, I don't like it when people ask each other if they pray, give zakat, fast etc etc. No one has to tell others because that's your direct, uninterrupted connection with Allah swt.
dzor
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Thanks, and yeah I agree.
Mamoon
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I forgot to add another key point: I don't believe that you need to learn about religion from certain people who claim to be qualified and have the authority to issue fatwas and make official interpretations of Quran and hadith; Islam is not a qualification.
It was not revealed to a certain group of people of a certain age or a certain gender, it's open for everyone and everyone can have their interpretations based on how they see it.
No opinion is worth or unworthy; it is all about how you see it because ultimately, whatever your interpretation is, the goal is the same but only the means to achieve that goal differ, which is why the intolerance of people who call themselves esteemed followers and students of Islam is simply terrible.
It was not revealed to a certain group of people of a certain age or a certain gender, it's open for everyone and everyone can have their interpretations based on how they see it.
No opinion is worth or unworthy; it is all about how you see it because ultimately, whatever your interpretation is, the goal is the same but only the means to achieve that goal differ, which is why the intolerance of people who call themselves esteemed followers and students of Islam is simply terrible.
Hamza_
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I think you are spot on, Hypocrisy is deep and every X,Y and Z thinks he is a perfect muslim because this person does this wrong and he needs to be amended asap, We face problem of degrading as well and that is also one reason many people dont speak up openly about religion specially young. Btw What were your parents views about that preech and mullah element?
dzor
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I don't want to instigate or anything but this is a Pashto song I found, I think it's like there questioning god
But it's an interesting view point
Adil_94
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I am in between agnosticism and Islam at the moment. But my parents are very religious and they wouldnt accept it all. I have talked to my mum a few times in the past that how do we know islam is thr truth
dzor
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Just hide it I guess? I'm not exactly religious either, but to my relatives I just go along with it, doesnt really effect me that much I guess
I think you mentioned your mother has depression, so it probably wouldn't be right to discuss that(no offense, not intending to be nosy).
Adil_94
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She goes oh you cant say that its gunnah. I was like ok didnt want to create argument. First time i questioned Islam was s when i was 10 when someone died and my dad said women couldnt go to the graveyard during a janazah because of a Hadith. And i said that was stupid and he flipped out and was like you cany say that.
Adil_94
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Yeah i know this was about 6 months ago wr had this discussion. I am not stupid to do that now
Adil_94
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Rozay are coming and idk should i really keep fasts when i dont have 100% conviction in islamic beliefs.
Adil_94
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[MENTION=130430]dzor[/MENTION] obviously if i wasnt keeping fasts i would hide it from them
I'm in the same boat as you but still identify as Muslim, I fast during ramzaan as I see it as a festival, that keeps me motivated even if i have my doubts and my faith isn't 100%
Adil_94
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Have u spoken to any friends about your doubts. Or spoke to anyone about it.
My mom's like that too
Started questioning religion when I was 8 and the eternity of the hereafter when I was ten, still seeking anwers.
Though Idk about that Hadith your father claims; cause all the women i know have visited graveyards to pay respects
One of my friends is an atheist, and I did discuss this with some of my cousins and this islamist friend of mine, but no I don't even renounce Islam, I still very much want to be Muslim.
Adil_94
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It was during the janazah i think when the body is getting buried at the qabarstan. Women arent apparently allowed there. That just struck me as odd. Idk if it is an actual hadith though.
dzor
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dzor
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Sad, but I'm pretty sure I've seen tons of women at qabarstan, not sure if they were allowed to go to the burial but I've seen them visit graves
Adil_94
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Yeah it was specifically about burial. Women are allowed to go to qabarstan after burial by themselves or with another woman.
Feel bad for you guys...
I guess I was quite fortunate...told my mum...she accepted my decision and if anything i have convinced her religion is nonsense...guess that is taking me even closer to hell...
I always wondered what i would do if I had a wife and children...im 30 now and single with no responsibilities...but nearly settled down at 18...i think sometimes if things had been different whether i would have even had the viewpoints i have now...and if i did have the viewpoints i have now what i would do if i had a practicing wife...and children raised on Islam...
I have had the luxury i guess of being able to focus solely on whats best for me...i imagine its a lot harder for some others...
I guess I was quite fortunate...told my mum...she accepted my decision and if anything i have convinced her religion is nonsense...guess that is taking me even closer to hell
...I always wondered what i would do if I had a wife and children...im 30 now and single with no responsibilities...but nearly settled down at 18...i think sometimes if things had been different whether i would have even had the viewpoints i have now...and if i did have the viewpoints i have now what i would do if i had a practicing wife...and children raised on Islam...
I have had the luxury i guess of being able to focus solely on whats best for me...i imagine its a lot harder for some others...
Mamoon
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My mother is a regular Muslim, quite orthodox but not extremist. She doesn't share most of my views.
My father despises Mullahs and beards like I do but he is one step ahead of me and doesn't see anything wrong with having wine or whiskey once in a while. Unfortunately it is very prevalent in the social circle of the bureaucrats and upper-tier government officials and army officers in Pakistan. If you live her, you will know.
I personally think there are far worse crimes than having an alcoholic drink once in a while, but there is too much emphasis on alcohol and pork specifically in Islam, which is why I'd never touch it. Honestly speaking, even if it was halal, I would not drink because I don't like these things.
I tend to not see eye-to-eye with Mullahs for two direct reasons as well: I'm a painter; I make paintings and sketches, plus I'm left-handed.
According to them, painting is haram. Like I mentioned before, there are a lot of tablighis in my locality and I interact with them a lot, and they keep telling me how painting is haram and a big sin. They even tried to convince my parents to destroy my paintings. Reason? It is a form of idol worship. That's where I disagree with them.
Having the ability to paint is a skill that not many people have. In fact, you can't really acquire it either because you are born with it. I am thankful that I'm blessed with this talent and I make use of it because it makes me happy. I don't paint for financial purposes nor do I sell my paintings, I just make them for my own satisfaction.
There are professional painters in Pakistan who sell them to earn a living. What's wrong with that? It is a tough, competitive and cruel world. If they are utilizing their talents to earn a living without doing anything illegal and unethical, without harming other people taking their due right, what is wrong with it?
It is haram to make paintings, it is haram to take pictures, but it is perfectly okay for a Maulvi to lead prayer in the mosque with money in his wallet, money which has picture of Quaid-e-Azam on it.
Now to the left-handed part. I am severe left-hander - my right-hand is practically useless unless it is supported by my left. I can barely use a spoon or a fork with my right and cannot write anything half legible. Why should I not use my left-hand as my dominant one? I am regularly criticized for eating with my left, but what is wrong with it?
Is it haram to watch with your left eye? hear with your left ear? Allah swt made me a left-handed person, why does that make me different than a right-handed one?
Same goes for my father, from whom I inherited my left-handedness. He is 63 now and has eaten with his left-hand all his life and still gets lambasted by the 'righteous Muslims.
Apart from their hypocrisies and double-standards, they tend to be extremely rude, obnoxious and lack empathy. When I was a kid and used to study Quran with a Maulvi that would come to our house (as is the custom among Pakistani families living here), one maulvi destroyed my new sweater by marking off the cartoon with a pen because it is haram, and he was duly fired the next day.
You must have seen how these Maulvis and their comrades treat kids in mosque. If someone makes the grand mistake of standing in the front row, they rudely shove him backwards. So what if one day, a kid prays in the front row? You should be thankful that a young boy has left his world at the age of 10-12 and has come to offer prayer in a mosque, and what you are doing is simply discouraging him with this behavior. I have seen it many times, along with getting angry at children for wearing shirts with cartoons to mosques and wearing t-shirts etc.
People blame me for generalizing, but we all go by our experiences, and I have seen enough of these people not to pay any heed to what they say.
Mamoon
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It is a misconception that Pathans are not religious. The Tribal areas and remote villages have Wahhabi mentality, and even Peshawar, which is far more urban than people think it is, remains one of the major centre of tabligh in Pakistan.
Is dating common in peshawar and do most girls there wear burkas and hijabs?or they more liberal?
endymion248
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It was a clever retort at the time but it doesn't make much sense as an argument. You should stop bringing it up so often, it looks like Bullet Drive using Shehzad's century in New Zealand 2010 to prove that he is a good player. Let it go, the moment passed.
Square Drive
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Agree wholeheartedly with this post. Although we share a love-hate relationship, this is one of the few times where I completely agree with you.
Not a fan of maulvis at all.
Mamoon
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No one wears burkas, hijab etc. in Peshawar and dating is extremely common. Of course, I am not talking about girls belonging to these Mullah families, they do but they are barely allowed to leave their homes.
During the reign of MMA, Peshawar was at its lowest ebb in terms of religious intolerance. To the point where women used to fear going out without covering their heads and billboards with females used to be painting black.
One good thing the left-wing ANP govt. did among its general incompetency was to pull Peshawar out from this extremism and in the last 6-7 years, *touchwood* Peshawar has been a very progressive city and is going through its best period in the last decade or so, now only if we can manage to wipe out the TTP scum and put an end to these bomb blasts and sectarian violence that goes on from time to time.
Mamoon
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Nothing clever about it, I was just giving an example of their hypocrisy. I only brought it up now since we are discussing this topic, and its relevant to the point of discussion. This is the first time I'm mentioning it in like 2 years, don't exaggerate for the sake of it.
I think PTI may played a role too
Hamza_
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I had encountered a guy who had asked me to leave with him for gathering in some other city leaving my classes, I declined with my reasons but he was still stubborn there. Religion is to be followed with heart, Everyone is surely responsible for their own deads and surely there cant be any forced convincing. In my view, We can solve our problems using religion but people tend to make religion look like that its against the human nature.
Why do you hate beards? Our prophet had a beard too. So you hate the fact that he had a beard?
And you hate Maulvis because they tell you that painting is haram and you shouldn't eat with your left hand? Lol. What a silly reason to hate them. I know some Maulvis are evil but not all of them are.
Hamza_
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I have myself dated a girl who is considered to be really pious and innocent by her parents, Hijabi and a Hafizah. And guess what she was the one who ditched me, However for all of her family she has been raised up such that she cant even stare at a guy, Now beat that for delusions.
shaz619
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Feel bad for you guys...
I guess I was quite fortunate...told my mum...she accepted my decision and if anything i have convinced her religion is nonsense...guess that is taking me even closer to hell
I always wondered what i would do if I had a wife and children...im 30 now and single with no responsibilities...but nearly settled down at 18...i think sometimes if things had been different whether i would have even had the viewpoints i have now...and if i did have the viewpoints i have now what i would do if i had a practicing wife...and children raised on Islam...
I have had the luxury i guess of being able to focus solely on whats best for me...i imagine its a lot harder for some others...
Am glad you're able to live happily with the support of your family, I don't agree with atheism but respect the difference of belief.
dzor
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Feel bad for you guys...
I guess I was quite fortunate...told my mum...she accepted my decision and if anything i have convinced her religion is nonsense...guess that is taking me even closer to hell
I always wondered what i would do if I had a wife and children...im 30 now and single with no responsibilities...but nearly settled down at 18...i think sometimes if things had been different whether i would have even had the viewpoints i have now...and if i did have the viewpoints i have now what i would do if i had a practicing wife...and children raised on Islam...
I have had the luxury i guess of being able to focus solely on whats best for me...i imagine its a lot harder for some others...
Bro aren't you guy who's a teacher in Moldova? You seem like a very UNIQUE British Pakistani if that's the right word to say, when you say nearly settled down at 18, how do you mean got married etc? How did your life come to this path? I'm interested to hear, but I understand if you don't wish to speak about it
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Saying you are a Muslim is one thing, but practically practicing Islam is another. For instance, I am a Muslim but practically do not practice Islam as I should on consistent basis; does that even mean that I am a Muslim? I don't know.
Laal
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If you believe in the Shahadat, you're a Muslim. End of story.
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I don't disagree with you but I feel if I am sinning more then doing something basic like praying 5 times a day then in fact I am in a worse situation as I am lying and not respecting the duties of what a muslim is expected to do. Either way, I am very grateful that I have been born as a Muslim. I am not consistent practically but trying is not a myth for me.
Laal
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At least you have that realization. At the end of the day intention is what matters.
endymion248
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Not really, having state currency in your wallet has nothing to do with painting or wearing something with human representations or not. It was pretty clever to come up with that on the spot when questionned but it doesn't make sense as an argument. Pretty sure you mentionned it recently but, if not, it's called artistic liberty.
Insha'Allah one day you will become more consistent.
The fact that this seems to be an issue suggests you are...when that guilt goes then you're moving away...most Muslims dont practice as they should...its being human...and one sign you're gone is when you're eating pork without a care in the world
...Yep although not there anymore...deciding where to move next in September...
My upbringing hasnt been conventional...generally I have been allowed to make my own decisions...explore things for myself...Islam wasnt something forced on me at all...wasnt a fixture in my home...
At 18 I was practicing and thought getting married would be a good idea...and might have done if not for a change of heart...
As for the apostasy thats a lot more recent...
So you have no problem with the dogma of religion? All the supernatural hierarchy, stories and even very controversial morality standards and norms directly coming from holy scriptures. Women are not equal to men, sex slaves are ok, marrying children is ok, not believing in God is worst of all crimes, capital punishment in public is way to go, women are men's property list goes on and on
How do you reconcile truth presented by religion with what we discovered through science?
I think you are doctor, how do you reconcile evolution with religion? - do you guys debate about that in medical college?
Last week I was talking to my friend's 8th grader son (they are very religious family) about science they learned in 8th grade. He mentioned that he is not going to study evolution that's harm and contradict Islam. I told him at least you are one better than your dad who does not even understand that science and Islam are in conflict. Islam and science view on evolution is way off from each other, both does not add up [emoji22][emoji22]
Yesterday, some body forward me some lecture transcripts of Numan Khan( so called modern moderate Mulvi, he mentioned that everybody of our body like heart take permission from Allah before beating. Now that is over the top. Some of that is suggested in Quran as well, this shows complete ignorance of Science.
My beef is not just with present religious leaders but the founders, they knew at some point in their life what they are doing. You cannot be hallucinated forever. If Mohammad, Jesus, Ram, Mosses existed today and preached same stuff they would not have being different from many of the babas, DEEPAK chopras, Mormon prophet, peer Sayed Sahib etc of this time. There is one guy in Mexico who calls himself reincarnation of Jesus, he has more than 100,000 followers, for them he is God. That is happening in 21th century, can you believe it? Like Tahir Quadri spend 9 years with Mohammad some how. He has 10s of thousands of followers if not more.
They were lucky to be in business in dark ages!!
Btw: all mainstream religions are political ideologies, they are not just personal beliefs, they are tools to shape policies and mold cultures. They cannot be immune from criticism. All these laws to protect religion is same as kings in those days protected themselves from all criticism. First step is freedom of expression. If you don't have intellect to answer the criticism then ready to be forgotten like any other literature. It does not make any sense to give anybody special treatment.
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Sandeep
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Interesting.. great insights!
junaid.ahmed
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As someone who has actually been hit by a vehicle I can say i didnt exactly have time to think or pray...so somewhat of a ridiculous point to make really...
And what use is prayer for life or death anyway?...when God wants to take your life he will regardless of your feelings on the matter...how many thousands of people die daily who God doesnt give a monkeys about...how many children die without even beginning their test...our apparent purpose on this earth?...what is God doing to allay the suffering of most of the world who live in poverty...fact is he does jack...
The Mutazila version of Islam at least makes Allah out to be better...he doesn't interfere in the world...the fact that you believe Allah interferes in the world simply shows him to be the tyrant that he is...oh wait...all this horror is 'testing' people
why so insecure, always bring Allah in discussion its just shame that rather justify yourself you just seems to attack om other beliefs
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