Any Ex-Muslims here?

[Sattarbuksh]

I've never come across a group of Ex-Muslims hacking away at necks of Muslims. You can easily find the reverse in most Muslim majority countries. Infact Ex-Muslims have Muslims in their own or extended families, and they love Muslims as they love any other human being.

Ex-Muslims (along with any other rational human being) are not against the five pillars of Islam, but are against:

Death penalty for apostasy, blasphemy, homosexuality, adultery, etc.
As well as; virgins in paradise as a reward for martyrdom, forced hijab, unequal blood money, unequal rights of women, sex slavery, amputations, flogging, offering unbelievers choice of protection/gunda tax or death, subjugation of unbelievers, etc.

You see this is were all the misunderstandings begin and Islamaphobia takes shape. There are madrasas funded by saudi that may advocate all those things and various versions of Islam such as extreme salfism and wahabism which are very fond of those evils you mentioned but there are many muslims that don't follow an Islam which suggests their women are forced to wear hijab, unequal rights etc there is a hadith that says there are 72 sects in Islam and only one will go to heaven. My view is that wahabis, extreme salaifs etc will all burn in hell

Fair enough, but can you name a number of Muslim groups that are fighting against the practices highlighted in bold above.

I can name of bunch of Muslim groups who are fighting to bring more of it all around the world, here is a short list:

Mostly peaceful: Tableeghi-Jamaat, Good Taliban, Muslim Brotherhood, Hizb ut-Tahrir, Jamaat Ahle Sunnat, etc.
Mostly violent: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Bad Taliban, Boko Haram, Al Shabaab, etc.

So, if you know of Muslim groups that are reverse of the ones above (meaning Moderate and oppose Sharia Law), please provide their names as I would love to read their website.

 

[Laal]

If God was perverted or whatever, he created this world, why do people expect God to be some liberal humanist or something, he isn't going to be what we want him to be; all our definitions of perversion,tyranny,cruelty,misogyny are all Earthly concepts, God is on a different level.

This is what people fail to understand, then they disappointed that God isn't the pacifist hippy they expected him to be.

As a I said you're welcome to pray to that God. Be happy.

 

[Nostalgic]

What's a stream of consciousness sentence? Please explain

It's like your internal monologue committed to paper. One thought sort of blends into the next, and so on.

I thought the sentence I quoted fit the bill.

 

[Laal]

And what's wrong with that? Better to have all that stuff forever than temporarily.

Lol. I feel vindicated. I wish you many years of celestial orgy. Goree goree hurs and sharab!

 

[Laal]

I believe it was Ghalib (or Daagh Dehlvi) who said,

Jis mein laakhon baras kee hurein hon,
Aiisee jannat ka kya kar-e koi

Ayesi jannat sei mujhey Allah hi bajaye.

 

[shaz619]

Fair enough, but can you name a number of Muslim groups that are fighting against the practices highlighted in bold above.

I can name of bunch of Muslim groups who are fighting to bring more of it all around the world, here is a short list:

Mostly peaceful: Tableeghi-Jamaat, Good Taliban, Muslim Brotherhood, Hizb ut-Tahrir, Jamaat Ahle Sunnat, etc.
Mostly violent: ISIS, Al Qaeda, Bad Taliban, Boko Haram, Al Shabaab, etc.

So, if you know of Muslim groups that are reverse of the ones above (meaning Moderate and oppose Sharia Law), please provide their names as I would love to read their website.

They're all evil unfortunately. But those are just groups and there are many Muslims out there that don't advocate the practices highlighted in bold why do we need to be a group? Am no scholar but am still learning about my faith and I come from a family of sufis that tend to be known for their tolerance and spiritualism. Also to counter attack the threat of extremism there is a centre in my city which works closely with the community and beyond.

 

[Nostalgic]

I believe it was Ghalib (or Daagh Dehlvi) who said,

Jis mein laakhon baras kee hurein hon,
Aiisee jannat ka kya kar-e koi

Ayesi jannat sei mujhey Allah hi bajaye.

The version I've read is:

Jiss mein laakhon baras ki hoorein hon
Aisi jannat ko kya karein

I've condemned Uncle Ghalib for this, because it betrays a lack of appreciation for gracefully ageing aunties, and reeks just a little bit of age bias.

 

[shaz619]

I believe it was Ghalib (or Daagh Dehlvi) who said,

Jis mein laakhon baras kee hurein hon,
Aiisee jannat ka kya kar-e koi

Ayesi jannat sei mujhey Allah hi bajaye.

What's the English translation

 

[Sattarbuksh]

They're all evil unfortunately. But those are just groups and there are many Muslims out there that don't advocate the practices highlighted in bold why do we need to be a group? Am no scholar but am still learning about my faith and I come from a family of sufis that tend to be known for their tolerance and spiritualism. Also to counter attack the threat of extremism there is a centre in my city which works closely with the community and beyond.

There are countless Muslim groups that want to impose the oppressive Sharia Law on everyone, but you cant name a single group of Moderate Muslims who oppose Sharia Law - because there aren't any.

There are individual Moderate Muslim gems scattered all around the world who oppose Sharia Law, but they are themselves are in hiding - from Muslims.

 

[The_KING]

My fellow Muslim Shaz on a roll Masha'Allah.

 

[The_KING]

You go to any religion forum on the internet and you see these ex muslims hoping to gain the sympathy of atheists. Oh I've left Islam, my family will disown me and people want me dead and blah blah blah. That''s the kind of BS these people will say to gain sympathy. What a bunch of sad and pathetic people.

 

[RWAC]

Some excellent examples in this thread of how someone who leaves the religion is hounded in packs.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

You go to any religion forum on the internet and you see these ex muslims hoping to gain the sympathy of atheists. Oh I've left Islam, my family will disown me and people want me dead and blah blah blah. That''s the kind of BS these people will say to gain sympathy. What a bunch of sad and pathetic people.

Not as sad and pathetic as the majority of muslims in some middle eastern countries that want apostates death and then people like you call apostates pathetic for complaining about it... I guess they should just shut up when they're oppressed. That would be the more noble, less pathetic thing to do, apparently.

Meanwhile you guys complain when a woman on an airliner doesn't get a diet coke. And that's not pathetic.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

Some excellent examples in this thread of how someone who leaves the religion is hounded in packs.

Don't be pathetic. It's pathetic to open your mouth.

 

[Cricket lover 27]

I can provide you with way more than 5 but that defeats the purpose. The point is that this is religious hatred and it's sadly hilarious to call ex-muslims islamophobic or phobic of a religion where the orthodox view demands your death.

Then care do

 

[filthyfulltoss]

Then care do

Here's a fairly comprehensive list

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Ex-Muslims#Videos_showing_Persecution_of_Ex-Muslims

The vast majority of ex-muslims are silent about it for these reasons ^

 

[Raw deal]

I have drifted away from Islam numerous times and I have come back numerous times. For me humanity is bigger than any religion, god. If you see a man suffering and if you go there and help him out, humanity is god there. No god is coming from heaven to help him out. You are helping him irrespective of his religion, his faiths. Your humanity, love towards another human being is god.
I absolutely hate when Muslims care only about Muslims. As if others are not equal because they pray to some other god...
You freaking treat everyone with respect. Love your fellow human being, .. Allah should love you even if you don't believe or pray to him...if he doesn't love, I reject such a god.

 

[tempus123]

What's the English translation

Talking about the age of 'hoor' (angels) and claiming they are millions of years old.

 

[tempus123]

The version I've read is:

Jiss mein laakhon baras ki hoorein hon
Aisi jannat ko kya karein

I've condemned Uncle Ghalib for this, because it betrays a lack of appreciation for gracefully ageing aunties, and reeks just a little bit of age bias.

You can age gracefully only till a certain age.

 

[Cricket lover 27]

Here's a fairly comprehensive list

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Ex-Muslims#Videos_showing_Persecution_of_Ex-Muslims

The vast majority of ex-muslims are silent about it for these reasons ^

So this is the best you can do I ask you for reference and you come up with Wikipedia
Besides the link's not working.

Get back to me to me when you have an authentic source

 

[tempus123]

Being an atheist does not mean one does not love his country. The freedom fighter Bhagat Singh wrote an interesting essay while he was lodged in the Lahore Central Jail in 1930, shortly before he was executed by the British in 1931.
It is titled "Why I am an Atheist".

Thanks for sharing his views.. very rare.

 

[Sandeep]

I have drifted away from Islam numerous times and I have come back numerous times. For me humanity is bigger than any religion, god. If you see a man suffering and if you go there and help him out, humanity is god there. No god is coming from heaven to help him out. You are helping him irrespective of his religion, his faiths. Your humanity, love towards another human being is god.
I absolutely hate when Muslims care only about Muslims. As if others are not equal because they pray to some other god...
You freaking treat everyone with respect. Love your fellow human being, .. Allah should love you even if you don't believe or pray to him...if he doesn't love, I reject such a god.

Beautifully put!

 

[filthyfulltoss]

So this is the best you can do I ask you for reference and you come up with Wikipedia
Besides the link's not working.

Get back to me to me when you have an authentic source

You asked for five instances of murder. I provided more than that. These are verified and legitimate sources from major news paper. If you want to ignore it than go ahead.

What's the point you're trying to make anyways?

It's okay to have such hadith and laws as long as no one is murdered (which they are anyways)? Shocking priority in what you choose to criticize.

 

[Cricket lover 27]

You asked for five instances of murder. I provided more than that. These are verified and legitimate sources from major news paper. If you want to ignore it than go ahead.

What's the point you're trying to make anyways?

It's okay to have such hadith and laws as long as no one is murdered (which they are anyways)? Shocking priority in what you choose to criticize.

Yeah as long as they are not being killed who cares what a PEW report says

The thing is majority of these people cannot even hurt a fly let alone kill people

Even some Christians think Jews should be eradicated from the face of the Earth but as long as they don't do it who cares what they think.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

Yeah as long as they are not being killed who cares what a PEW report says

The thing is majority of these people cannot even hurt a fly let alone kill people

Even some Christians think Jews should be eradicated from the face of the Earth but as long as they don't do it who cares what they think.

I agree with you on that. If someone is not hurting another person that's fine.

But often times they are and we can't ignore that. And for this reason, many people, like me, will never be vocal about it. I personally know 3 other pakistan ex-muslims, and none of us have told our communities. The fear is real, and it's based on a conservative community and the repercussions are real. We can't just ignore that.

And it's hard to ignore that so many people view things the way they do. How do you think the average Pakistani or Saudi family would react to having a relative come out as ex-muslim. It's hard to imagine it wouldn't be an aggressive ordeal to say the least.

 

[Cricket lover 27]

I agree with you on that. If someone is not hurting another person that's fine.

But often times they are and we can't ignore that. And for this reason, many people, like me, will never be vocal about it. I personally know 3 other pakistan ex-muslims, and none of us have told our communities. The fear is real, and it's based on a conservative community and the repercussions are real. We can't just ignore that.

And it's hard to ignore that so many people view things the way they do. How do you think the average Pakistani or Saudi family would react to having a relative come out as ex-muslim. It's hard to imagine it wouldn't be an aggressive ordeal to say the least.

My sincere advice try telling your parents I am sure they would understand and No they will not kill you unless you have some other reason to believe that they will.

 

[*syed59*]

I have drifted away from Islam numerous times and I have come back numerous times. For me humanity is bigger than any religion, god. If you see a man suffering and if you go there and help him out, humanity is god there. No god is coming from heaven to help him out. You are helping him irrespective of his religion, his faiths. Your humanity, love towards another human being is god.

I absolutely hate when Muslims care only about Muslims. As if others are not equal because they pray to some other god...
You freaking treat everyone with respect. Love your fellow human being, .. Allah should love you even if you don't believe or pray to him...if he doesn't love, I reject such a god.

I too absolutely hate Hindus, Christians , Jews, Buddhists, etc etc. when they care only about their own kind as if others are not equal because the pray to some other God.

Everyone is guilty of doing the same in this world then, right ?
Yet it is hard to grasp for people, that all of it, has nothing to do with God favoring people who love him and hating those who reject him.

Indeed God loves all his creation even if you don't believe in him or don't pray to him.
He has commanded mankind to enjoin good and forbid evil various times. He has commanded mankind to treat all humanity equally regardless of their faith or creed various times, in many ways.

And mankind KNOWS that there is a God and that God is claiming something, God is guiding you, He is revealing to you. All religions having a holy book at the least know it.
Since Adam(a.s) it is a series of books and prophets and guiders who have been guiding people to what is right and what is wrong, who is God, what is God, purpose of creation, existence.

If this particular human being willingly himself continues to ignore all that has been revealed and continues to ignore what messages his own soul is giving him. and then has the audacity to say " I reject you, how can you not love me".. It is an extremely extremely ignorant state to be in.

God has given this basic sense of good and bad to every human being.( our belief as a Muslim atleast).
Even an atheist knows it is not good to lie. It is not good to kill. It is not good to steal.

 

[*syed59*]

I've never come across a group of Ex-Muslims hacking away at necks of Muslims. You can easily find the reverse in most Muslim majority countries. Infact Ex-Muslims have Muslims in their own or extended families, and they love Muslims as they love any other human being.

Ex-Muslims (along with any other rational human being) are not against the five pillars of Islam, but are against:

Death penalty for apostasy, blasphemy, homosexuality, adultery, etc.
As well as; virgins in paradise as a reward for martyrdom, forced hijab, unequal blood money, unequal rights of women, sex slavery, amputations, flogging, offering unbelievers choice of protection/gunda tax or death, subjugation of unbelievers, etc.

This, as you may know are the set of beliefs of a particular group of people who actually are followers of Satan, nothing more or less.
I also feel sad for people who have to live under this group of people and hence be victimized by them through these false beliefs and their forced implementation.

There are countless Muslim groups that want to impose the oppressive Sharia Law on everyone, but you cant name a single group of Moderate Muslims who oppose Sharia Law - because there aren't any.

There are individual Moderate Muslim gems scattered all around the world who oppose Sharia Law, but they are themselves are in hiding - from Muslims.

To oppose Sharia Laws is not the problem. Rather its necessary to
1)understand what Sharia Laws are, and
2)denounce those laws which satanics have made and manufactured themselves but put Islamic label on them due to their lack of understanding.

Majority of people who understand the concept of Sharia laws in Islam, try their best to act spread on the above. Which are a lot of different groups most prominently among all of true Sunni/ Shia and their subs.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I live in Canada

In which case you can live a perfectly Godless life anyway. You are quite free to tell your parents and family that you are an ex-Muslim if that would make you feel better. Or not if that works better. Like I said, no one can make you believe anything by force, you can believe whatever you like, especially if you live in a non-Islamic country like Canada.

 

[Sandeep]

In which case you can live a perfectly Godless life anyway. You are quite free to tell your parents and family that you are an ex-Muslim if that would make you feel better. Or not if that works better. Like I said, no one can make you believe anything by force, you can believe whatever you like, especially if you live in a non-Islamic country like Canada.

Will that be a problem in countries like Pakistan, India? Admitting to apostasy, that is..

 

[miandadrules]

Will that be a problem in countries like Pakistan, India? Admitting to apostasy, that is..

It depends if you are referring to a macro or micro level.

 

[Sandeep]

It depends if you are referring to a macro or micro level.

Could you please elaborate?

 

[miandadrules]

Could you please elaborate?

At a micro level, on a day to day basis I don't think people would take much interest in ones personal beliefs. There are more known atheists and non-practicing muslims in Pakistan than people realise. It will become an issue if you attack the (Islamic) belief system of others. That said, if someone has a grudge against you then it will be used against you to a devastating effect.

Even on macro level, the majority of Pakistanis wouldn't object to you debating and explaining your beliefs but you'd have to be very careful about your articulation and wary not offend any sensibilities. They probably won't like what you say but they'll allow you to say it within limits. However, if your views garner sufficient national attention then you risk drawing the attention of right wing religious groups who will see it as opportunity to legitimise their claim as the "true defenders" of the faith and could seek to make an example of you. They will use religion to coerce others in supporting their action.

To explain it fully we'd have to delve in to linguistics and how language is used to manipulate the masses but the basic crux would be that these groups will demand the masses support them because by not doing so they are forgoing their religious obligation and hence are no longer muslims either. Which is a powerful message to a Muslim, especially one who doesn't question what he is being taught.

On the whole it's not about religion but about power. The greater legitimacy these factions get, the greater the control they exert over the masses. So, many can privately disclose their apostasy to those closest to them and even talk about it openly as long as they are "respectful" but they leave themselves very vulnerable to certain extreme factions.

 

[Sandeep]

At a micro level, on a day to day basis I don't think people would take much interest in ones personal beliefs. There are more known atheists and non-practicing muslims in Pakistan than people realise. It will become an issue if you attack the (Islamic) belief system of others. That said, if someone has a grudge against you then it will be used against you to a devastating effect.

Even on macro level, the majority of Pakistanis wouldn't object to you debating and explaining your beliefs but you'd have to be very careful about your articulation and wary not offend any sensibilities. They probably won't like what you say but they'll allow you to say it within limits. However, if your views garner sufficient national attention then you risk drawing the attention of right wing religious groups who will see it as opportunity to legitimise their claim as the "true defenders" of the faith and could seek to make an example of you. They will use religion to coerce others in supporting their action.

To explain it fully we'd have to delve in to linguistics and how language is used to manipulate the masses but the basic crux would be that these groups will demand the masses support them because by not doing so they are forgoing their religious obligation and hence are no longer muslims either. Which is a powerful message to a Muslim, especially one who doesn't question what he is being taught.

On the whole it's not about religion but about power. The greater legitimacy these factions get, the greater the control they exert over the masses. So, many can privately disclose their apostasy to those closest to them and even talk about it openly as long as they are "respectful" but they leave themselves very vulnerable to certain extreme factions.

Thanks for the wonderful explanation! It makes sense now..

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Will that be a problem in countries like Pakistan, India? Admitting to apostasy, that is..

I can imagine it would be in an Islamic country. There are lots of very famous atheists in Pakistan but none of them openly say it, even if through their writings they infer it.

 

[Laal]

Definitely many agnostics and areligious people in Pakistan. Growing too.

 

[Thivagar]

why call your selves ex-Muslims..why not just say "i'm and atheist or agnostic"?

its sad you've left but then again perhaps for the better for all...

Now he'll be glad he left.

 

[The_KING]

Aww poor apostates. People want us dead and we are so oppressed. We can't tell anyone about it. If that's the case then don't be an idiot and leave the religion. Simple as that. Thankfully, I've never encountered an ex muslim in my life. It's always good to be in good company.

 

[Hamza_]

Fact is we Muslims ourself dont follow 95% of our religion because practicaly its been made impossible to follow, Islam forbids plenty of things and we are involved in plenty of things, And despite the fact that we live in an islamic country we face plenty of problems, Bribery is common and so are corruption and hypocricy, Lies are found at every door step, Adultry and sexual frustration is common, There are plenty of wealth and income differentials, I doubt many pay zakat, Even music is haram and I guess Music is encouraged these days, Extravagence, Show off and Crimes of all sort are common. So first case is that there is no much difference in a person who is a muslim or an ex muslim, Not even 5% difference.

 

[Robert]

So , you believe in a creator , who created the universe and laws that govern in , but is not bothered about what is happening? That sounds odd , please do not mind. But if a creator creates something , there must be some purpose.

The creator might just move on to the next universe.

 

[Sattarbuksh]

So first case is that there is no much difference in a person who is a muslim or an ex muslim, Not even 5% difference.

Even with the so called 5% difference; Ahmedi Muslims are deemed Non-Muslim, Shia and Sufis are deemed heretics, Muslims are banned from changing their religion even if they wish to, and Non-Muslim citizens are second-class citizens in Muslim majority countries.

I shudder at the thought of Muslims practicing 100% Sharia Law.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

Aww poor apostates. People want us dead and we are so oppressed. We can't tell anyone about it. If that's the case then don't be an idiot and leave the religion. Simple as that. Thankfully, I've never encountered an ex muslim in my life. It's always good to be in good company.

You are a poor excuse for a human. God forbid this ever happen to you and your family:

Two assailants stopped and dragged them from the rickshaw to the pavement before striking them with machetes, according to witnesses. Roy was struck and stabbed with sharp weapons in the head. His wife was slashed on her shoulders and the fingers of her left hand were severed. Both of them were rushed to Dhaka Medical College Hospital. Roy died at 10:30 pm. His wife survived. His daughter was in college in the United States at the time of his death.

In an interview with BBC's Newshour, Roy's wife said that police stood nearby when they were attacked on the spot but did not act.

I want you to tell that daughter "awww poor apostate. boohooo 'look at me people want us dead and we're so oppressed. we can't tell anyone about it'. If that's the case then don't be an idiot and leave the religion. Simple as that."

Nevermind, you probably would considering you have no sense of humanity. Instead of criticizing 7th century inhumane practices and mindsets you choose to mock the people that are oppressed. Meanwhile a lady doesn't receive her diet coke on an airliner and you lot lose your minds and start crying on social media. The hypocrisy is insane.

This is no different than saying "oooooh booohooo, 248 children got murdered in Peshawar? Than don't be stupid and stop seeking an education. Simple as that"

Condemn the oppressors, not the oppressed.

But then again it only shows where your loyalty lies. Not with humanity, but with 7th century practices that call on the murder of innocent human beings - with oppression and not with humanity.

 

[Hamza_]

Even with the so called 5% difference; Ahmedi Muslims are deemed Non-Muslim, Shia and Sufis are deemed heretics, Muslims are banned from changing their religion even if they wish to, and Non-Muslim citizens are second-class citizens in Muslim majority countries.

I shudder at the thought of Muslims practicing 100% Sharia Law.

Well, I want to follow islam as much as possible, I have wished to be as ideal muslim as possible but this society is a hypocrite, It does not allow you, It makes you think that its not practical, double standards are at peak, We tend to attend majlis and islami mehfils but at same time the same people are found in cafes enjoying extravagance and later on vulgar music as well, From a small kid to an elderly man knows who YO YO HONEY SINGH is and he or she is the same person who discourages, Wearing of skinny clothes, Pre martial relations, Or female of his family coming out without male members. If you are to follow something, Inhale it completely and follow it, Get it or forget it, As we say when you aim to follow a path, Go up forward on it completely till the end. If you cant then dont tell anyone what is right or wrong regardless of who they are to you.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

In which case you can live a perfectly Godless life anyway. You are quite free to tell your parents and family that you are an ex-Muslim if that would make you feel better. Or not if that works better. Like I said, no one can make you believe anything by force, you can believe whatever you like, especially if you live in a non-Islamic country like Canada.

That's true no one can force me to believe, even I can't - I tried long and hard. I can't be happy if my loved ones aren't happy so there's no point telling anyone. I think a lot of people would share this sentiment.

My sincere advice try telling your parents I am sure they would understand and No they will not kill you unless you have some other reason to believe that they will.

I just don't want to hurt them. I am not sure they would understand but I do know they love me. I respect how important religion is to them.

 

[Hamza_]

All religion must be respected and everyone has full right of choice in religion, Alhamdulilah i pray 5 times a day but still dont find myself as a perfect muslim because like anyone else i also commit mistakes, And aa much as i want to follow the religion well the society discourages following it but on the sametime encourages, Now Mr.X has been told by his family not to take bribes but for some reason he has to do it because he is not left with anyother option, Generally its a problem with our society, Its a not fair to call Pakistan an islamic country in real terms but thats the way it is. No one really follows the religion with perfection.

 

[RWAC]

Aww poor apostates. People want us dead and we are so oppressed. We can't tell anyone about it. If that's the case then don't be an idiot and leave the religion. Simple as that. Thankfully, I've never encountered an ex muslim in my life. It's always good to be in good company.

The hate is so ironic here.

 

[The_KING]

You are a poor excuse for a human. God forbid this ever happen to you and your family:

Two assailants stopped and dragged them from the rickshaw to the pavement before striking them with machetes, according to witnesses. Roy was struck and stabbed with sharp weapons in the head. His wife was slashed on her shoulders and the fingers of her left hand were severed. Both of them were rushed to Dhaka Medical College Hospital. Roy died at 10:30 pm. His wife survived. His daughter was in college in the United States at the time of his death.

In an interview with BBC's Newshour, Roy's wife said that police stood nearby when they were attacked on the spot but did not act.

I want you to tell that daughter "awww poor apostate. boohooo 'look at me people want us dead and we're so oppressed. we can't tell anyone about it'. If that's the case then don't be an idiot and leave the religion. Simple as that."

Nevermind, you probably would considering you have no sense of humanity. Instead of criticizing 7th century inhumane practices and mindsets you choose to mock the people that are oppressed. Meanwhile a lady doesn't receive her diet coke on an airliner and you lot lose your minds and start crying on social media. The hypocrisy is insane.

This is no different than saying "oooooh booohooo, 248 children got murdered in Peshawar? Than don't be stupid and stop seeking an education. Simple as that"

Condemn the oppressors, not the oppressed.

But then again it only shows where your loyalty lies. Not with humanity, but with 7th century practices that call on the murder of innocent human beings - with oppression and not with humanity.

Shut up fool and stop chatting ********. My loyalties lie with my religion and my fellow Muslims and if anyone dares to criticise them, they will bring the worst out of me.

And why would that scenario happen to me or my family? No one in my family is idiot enough to leave Islam. Stop crying fool and go and tell your parents about your apostasy.

 

[Ar7alan]

agnostic deist (believer in god but not in religion) here.

muslims hypocrisy, jahalat molviat, and, certain things about islam were reasons of me turning away from religion.

Any hypicrisy ,molviat you find in Quran .... please share with others also

 

[Deosai]

Definitely many agnostics and areligious people in Pakistan. Growing too.

Are you an atheist/ex muslims, always got the impression from your communist inspired username

 

[Sattarbuksh]

Fact is we Muslims ourself dont follow 95% of our religion because practicaly its been made impossible to follow, Islam forbids plenty of things and we are involved in plenty of things, And despite the fact that we live in an islamic country we face plenty of problems, Bribery is common and so are corruption and hypocricy, Lies are found at every door step, Adultry and sexual frustration is common, There are plenty of wealth and income differentials, I doubt many pay zakat, Even music is haram and I guess Music is encouraged these days, Extravagence, Show off and Crimes of all sort are common. So first case is that there is no much difference in a person who is a muslim or an ex muslim, Not even 5% difference.

Well, I want to follow islam as much as possible, I have wished to be as ideal muslim as possible but this society is a hypocrite, It does not allow you, It makes you think that its not practical, double standards are at peak, We tend to attend majlis and islami mehfils but at same time the same people are found in cafes enjoying extravagance and later on vulgar music as well, From a small kid to an elderly man knows who YO YO HONEY SINGH is and he or she is the same person who discourages, Wearing of skinny clothes, Pre martial relations, Or female of his family coming out without male members. If you are to follow something, Inhale it completely and follow it, Get it or forget it, As we say when you aim to follow a path, Go up forward on it completely till the end. If you cant then dont tell anyone what is right or wrong regardless of who they are to you.

So to you Saudi Arabia and Iran are better models than comparatively liberal Muslim countries like Turkey and Pakistan?

 

[Hamza_]

So to you Saudi Arabia and Iran are better models than comparatively liberal Muslim countries like Turkey and Pakistan?

I dont see any role models, Because there isnt any perfection in following a religion now a days. People usually mix up the things and claim themselves to be true ones on basis of their emphasis on few particular elements.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

Shut up fool and stop chatting ********. My loyalties lie with my religion and my fellow Muslims and if anyone dares to criticise them, they will bring the worst out of me.

And why would that scenario happen to me or my family? No one in my family is idiot enough to leave Islam. Stop crying fool and go and tell your parents about your apostasy.

Trust me I'm not crying - I think you're the only one here who's getting frustrated and being childish and immature.

It was an example. Clearly you have trouble seeing it from the other perspective. Let me try again, say, tomorrow the Taliban carries out a suicide attack. If one of your loved ones is hurt how would you look to hear:

"awww poor muslim. booohoo look at me people want us dead and we're so oppressed. no one listens to us. If that's the case then don't be an idiot and follow the proper Islam that we follow in the Taliban"


---------------

You loyalties lie with your religion so that forces you to not show empathy for people who are oppressed? I think you just insulted Islam yourself the most out of anyone here.

 

[Hamza_]

[MENTION=139123]Sattarbuksh[/MENTION] Also its about trying to be a better muslim and a better person, What we could do now is to try and focus upon the difference between right and wrong according to the religion and follow that. Even in the countries you mentioned have problems person to person, Certainly perfection is not there. But atleast we could try and possibly adopt. As we currently follow only 5 to 10% of the religion, Maybe just try and raise up that percentage a little bit as the perfect role model from today might not be in sight.

 

[The_KING]

Any hypicrisy ,molviat you find in Quran .... please share with others also

There are none bro. These ex muslims are clueless.

 

[Ar7alan]

There are none bro. These ex muslims are clueless.

let's see if they can find any hypocrisy in Quran ????? m interested to know ...

 

[Sattarbuksh]

I sometimes follow the twitter feed of Pakistani-Canadian Ex-Muslim; NiceMangos. Makes for interesting reading.

 

[Laal]

Are you an atheist/ex muslims, always got the impression from your communist inspired username

Nope. Not a Marxist. But I'm inspired by Trotsky, nonetheless. Especially his concept of entryism. I do consider myself to be a Muslim that rejects Mullahiyat and most of the modern interpretation of the Quran. The gist of the Quran is to take care of your neighbor, the rest is all commentary.

 

[speed]

It's just a phase where being agnostic/athiest is seen as being Liberal, sophisticated, forward thinking, it will die out and people will turn back to some sort of spirituality to fill the empty voids in their hearts, It's just that The rest of the world takes a bit of time in imitating the west and now it's popular for some kids in the east to say they are athiest/agnostic but just as people in the west are embracing Islam and experimenting with other spiritual paths these proud agnost/athiest friends of ours will eventually turn back to Islam, let's hope it's not to late.

 

[Laal]

It's just a phase where being agnostic/athiest is seen as being Liberal, sophisticated, forward thinking, it will die out and people will turn back to some sort of spirituality to fill the empty voids in their hearts, It's just that The rest of the world takes a bit of time in imitating the west and now it's popular for some kids in the east to say they are athiest/agnostic but just as people in the west are embracing Islam and experimenting with other spiritual paths these proud agnost/athiest friends of ours will eventually turn back to Islam, let's hope it's not to late.

Maybe for some. I have seen some exceptionally ignorant and superficial atheists. People like Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, and others are hardly sophisticated. In fact their arguments are very rudimentary.

 

[Mystrey]

Aww poor apostates. People want us dead and we are so oppressed. We can't tell anyone about it. If that's the case then don't be an idiot and leave the religion. Simple as that. Thankfully, I've never encountered an ex muslim in my life. It's always good to be in good company.

Ah, what a shining beacon of a religious zealot! Justifying murder. These four lines are self-explanatory why anyone would want to leave religion.

 

[The_KING]

Ah, what a shining beacon of a religious zealot! Justifying murder. These four lines are self-explanatory why anyone would want to leave religion.

I'm not justifying murder genius.

 

[Mamoon]

One benefit of online forums is that the closest Pakistani atheists are able to express their views freely under the shield of anonymity. There are more atheists and agnostics in Pakistan than people realize, but they are too afraid to come out in the open and rightly so. I have firm belief in Allah swt and Islam, and various personal incidents have only strengthened my faith, but I truly despise tablighis and mullahs in general.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

One benefit of online forums is that the closest Pakistani atheists are able to express their views freely under the shield of anonymity. There are more atheists and agnostics in Pakistan than people realize, but they are too afraid to come out in the open and rightly so. I have firm belief in Allah swt and Islam, and various personal incidents have only strengthened my faith, but I truly despise tablighis and mullahs in general.

Are you in the field of biology? I find many people who study biology become firmer believers while many other lose their faith.

 

[Mamoon]

Are you in the field of biology? I find many people who study biology become firmer believers while many other lose their faith.

Soon-to-be doctor. Generally speaking, in our field, once you get the gist of how complex the human body is and how little we know about it, you do tend to believe that there is a driving force behind it that science cannot explain. However, my personal experiences have nothing to do with my professional life . . . it's more to do with Allah swt answering my prayers almost instantly regardless of what I pray for, and Helping me find my way out of the most difficult situations.

I have also seen many dreams related to Islam and certain visions for the future which have helped me change my course of action because I foresaw in my dream what the alternative option was going to lead to, and it wasn't good so I didn't take that route.

I won't deny that people believing in other religions have experienced these things as well and that'd strengthen their faith in their respective religions, but as far as am I concerned, it has definitely helped me strengthen my faith in Islam and there was a point in around 2006-2007 that I almost became an atheist and even told my Mother and a few other people that I have lost faith in the existence of Allah swt, and if He truly exists, He should show me some sign and on that very day, I did see a sign and I have pledged not to share with anyone because people wouldn't believe it and it's no use.

I like to argue and challenge things, and I also challenged His existence, and I got a fitting and conclusive response.

Since that day, my faith has been restored and has only strengthened over the course of the years because the things that I've witnessed and the things that have happened to me, and I do believe that if you seek His guidance, He will guide you.

 

[Mystrey]

I'm not justifying murder genius.

Calling people idiots, for leaving something they don't believe in, after hearing how their mortal lives then are in danger if others find out they're atheists is justifying murder. Genius

One day, I dream one day, we will walk openly in the streets of Pakistan and little xenophobes like you would have to stomach that. Enjoy your time of religious bigotry while it lasts.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

Any hypicrisy ,molviat you find in Quran .... please share with others also

he was talking about muslim hypocrisy. On one hand you folk cry for palestinians and rohingay but on the other hand some of you here are perfectly fine with the oppression of ex-muslims.

That's hypocrisy

 

[filthyfulltoss]

Soon-to-be doctor. Generally speaking, in our field, once you get the gist of how complex the human body is and how little we know about it, you do tend to believe that there is a driving force behind it that science cannot explain. However, my personal experiences have nothing to do with my professional life . . . it's more to do with Allah swt answering my prayers almost instantly regardless of what I pray for, and Helping me find my way out of the most difficult situations.

I have also seen many dreams related to Islam and certain visions for the future which have helped me change my course of action because I foresaw in my dream what the alternative option was going to lead to, and it wasn't good so I didn't take that route.

I won't deny that people believing in other religions have experienced these things as well and that'd strengthen their faith in their respective religions, but as far as am I concerned, it has definitely helped me strengthen my faith in Islam and there was a point in around 2006-2007 that I almost became an atheist and even told my Mother and a few other people that I have lost faith in the existence of Allah swt, and if He truly exists, He should show me some sign and on that very day, I did see a sign and I have pledged not to share with anyone because people wouldn't believe it and it's no use.

I like to argue and challenge things, and I also challenged His existence, and I got a fitting and conclusive response.

Since that day, my faith has been restored and has only strengthened over the course of the years because the things that I've witnessed and the things that have happened to me, and I do believe that if you seek His guidance, He will guide you.

I'm going into the medical field hopefully, and I'm already learning that personal prejudices and biases make for a pretty poor practitioner. So yeah, I would also never let my beliefs affect my professional attitude.

Do you believe that those other followers are misguided or they are perfectly fine where they're at? Because I'm open to the idea of god, it's just the baggage with religious dogma that wards me off.

 

[Sattarbuksh]

he was talking about muslim hypocrisy. On one hand you folk cry for palestinians and rohingay but on the other hand some of you here are perfectly fine with the oppression of ex-muslims.

That's hypocrisy

To a normal rational human being it is hypocrisy, but it is not hypocrisy within the sphere of Sharia Law. Both actions are perfectly in line with Sharia Law and there is no contradiction between the two.

1. Under Sharia Law, Muslim lives are worth more than Non-Musim lives. The death compensation (blood money/diyya) for a Muslim is more than that of a Non-Muslim. Hence no matter what terrorist tactics Palestinians employ, Muslims will support them over the Non-Muslim Jews.

2. Under Sharia Law the punishment for apostasy from Islam is death.

 

[The_KING]

Calling people idiots, for leaving something they don't believe in, after hearing how their mortal lives then are in danger if others find out they're atheists is justifying murder. Genius

One day, I dream one day, we will walk openly in the streets of Pakistan and little xenophobes like you would have to stomach that. Enjoy your time of religious bigotry while it lasts.

Keep dreaming. That will never happen. I won't let that happen and I'm sure most Pakistanis won't either. Keep dreaming fool. There is already way too much corrpuption in Pakistan. The last thing we need is for some stupid apostates to come and undermine our Islamic beliefs.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

^ and how will you stop it? Murder? Oppression? So you do justify murder then. Makes sense that you're a closet Talibani.

 

[Laal]

Keep dreaming. That will never happen. I won't let that happen and I'm sure most Pakistanis won't either. Keep dreaming fool. There is already way too much corrpuption in Pakistan. The last thing we need is for some stupid apostates to come and undermine our Islamic beliefs.

Can't you make your point without resorting to name-calling? That's a self-defeating approach.

 

[Mystrey]

Keep dreaming. That will never happen. I won't let that happen and I'm sure most Pakistanis won't either. Keep dreaming fool. There is already way too much corrpuption in Pakistan. The last thing we need is for some stupid apostates to come and undermine our Islamic beliefs.

You don't need 'apostates' to undermine anything, you religious bigots are doing a very handy job destroying our country all by yourself.

 

[Mystrey]

Can't you make your point without resorting to name-calling? That's a self-defeating approach.

Comes naturally to hateful little bigots like him.

 

[QazzarFan]

It's just a phase where being agnostic/athiest is seen as being Liberal, sophisticated, forward thinking, it will die out and people will turn back to some sort of spirituality to fill the empty voids in their hearts, It's just that The rest of the world takes a bit of time in imitating the west and now it's popular for some kids in the east to say they are athiest/agnostic but just as people in the west are embracing Islam and experimenting with other spiritual paths these proud agnost/athiest friends of ours will eventually turn back to Islam, let's hope it's not to late.

The reason people can choose to embrace Islam in the West is because of the religious freedom it allows. A choice not available to many Muslims in Islamic countries. One is always openly celebrated and welcome when they choose to embrace Islam but openly persecuted and insulted when they leave Islam...why is that? That to me is barbaric and medieval jurisprudence. Shows incredible insecurity in Islam if such drastic reaction is required for one leaving Islam. Muslims can go all over the world and preach Islam but the same is not allowed in an Islamic society...why is that? That's ultimate hypocrisy. Now some say Islam is a "perfect" religion. Many say Muslims are not following Muhammad's original teachings. How did adherents of such infallible religion went astray? Adherents to a perfect religion would become perfect themselves over generations and not be corrupted right?

I'm not justifying murder genius.

But the statement you made indirectly advocates it. Death for apostasy...you're justifying it. Why should people be persecuted for not believing in Islam? You wouldn't have believed in Islam or known about it if you weren't born in a Muslim family. Do you not see any hypocrisy in Islam where people are forbidden from choosing their own spiritual path and persecuted for abandoning Islam?

 

[the Great Khan]

The reason people can choose to embrace Islam in the West is because of the religious freedom it allows. A choice not available to many Muslims in Islamic countries. One is always openly celebrated and welcome when they choose to embrace Islam but openly persecuted and insulted when they leave Islam...why is that? That to me is barbaric and medieval jurisprudence. Shows incredible insecurity in Islam if such drastic reaction is required for one leaving Islam. Muslims can go all over the world and preach Islam but the same is not allowed in an Islamic society...why is that? That's ultimate hypocrisy. Now some say Islam is a "perfect" religion. Many say Muslims are not following Muhammad's original teachings. How did adherents of such infallible religion went astray? Adherents to a perfect religion would become perfect themselves over generations and not be corrupted right?


actually its a modern concept and product of the modern world we live in where war,famine,corruption, are a result of the post colonial era. Muslim societies are insecure, often attacked and invaded, and interfered with. In unstable environments you get some unstable actions and ultimately unstable people.


But the statement you made indirectly advocates it. Death for apostasy...you're justifying it. Why should people be persecuted for not believing in Islam? You wouldn't have believed in Islam or known about it if you weren't born in a Muslim family. Do you not see any hypocrisy in Islam where people are forbidden from choosing their own spiritual path and persecuted for abandoning Islam?

There is zero evidence in the Quraan for death for apostasy. You are free to believe what you want and its is explicit in the Quraan. Those "muslims" who now call themselves ex-muslims are generally a product of difficult circumstances due to extra cultural influences and in many cases abuse. In peaceful muslim societies you were allowed to leave Islam and return if you so wished. To establish acceptance you must first create peace.

 

[miandadrules]

There is zero evidence in the Quraan for death for apostasy. You are free to believe what you want and its is explicit in the Quraan. Those "muslims" who now call themselves ex-muslims are generally a product of difficult circumstances due to extra cultural influences and in many cases abuse. In peaceful muslim societies you were allowed to leave Islam and return if you so wished. To establish acceptance you must first create peace.

Though I agree with many of your points I feel that the bolded part is a gross generalisation and simplistic blanket statement.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

To a normal rational human being it is hypocrisy, but it is not hypocrisy within the sphere of Sharia Law. Both actions are perfectly in line with Sharia Law and there is no contradiction between the two.

1. Under Sharia Law, Muslim lives are worth more than Non-Musim lives. The death compensation (blood money/diyya) for a Muslim is more than that of a Non-Muslim. Hence no matter what terrorist tactics Palestinians employ, Muslims will support them over the Non-Muslim Jews.

2. Under Sharia Law the punishment for apostasy from Islam is death.

The death compensation is the same under hanafi fiqh

And for women apostates it's not death but imprisonment
The prophets cousin ubaydallah ibn Jahsh became Christian and continued to live amongst the Muslims and the Quraysh

Apostasy was similar to treason in the 8th century with apostates leaking state secrets and helping the opposition in their battles against medina



As for this thread for some reason apostasy is never mentioned when demographics are used to scare non Muslims of impending muslim domination
Far more Muslims are brainwashed by the 'west' than vice versa

 

[the Great Khan]

Though I agree with many of your points I feel that the bolded part is a gross generalisation and simplistic blanket statement.

haven't met or spoken to one who doesn't have a story to tell with regards to islam being forced on them and then them being abused etc..but I should qualify the above and say "in my experience".

 

[miandadrules]

haven't met or spoken to one who doesn't have a story to tell with regards to islam being forced on them and then them being abused etc..but I should qualify the above and say "in my experience".

Totally understand.

I've met many that have left simply because they weren't provided with sufficient answers. On the contrary when the "Mullahs" couldn't give them sufficient answers they resorted to threats which only compounded the issue.

In my opinion the problem lies with the "muslim intelligentsia" (not Islam) rather than the non-believer, in that we can't articulate the faith in an effective intelligent manner. When Islam was at it's zenith our most prominent minds were polymaths, as well as theologians, whereas now our brightest minds enter the arts, business and science and our least capable enter scholarly pursuits. The analogy I use is when a child shows promise parents hope he becomes a doctor or lawyer, if the child isn't academically inclined the parents in the hope of securing a decent future for the child push him towards religious studies. This results in our least articulate and capable being at the forefront of what 99% of muslims regard as the important part of their life.

Then we have the establishments within which they are taught, with their own political agenda. An agenda which quashes any questioning and lateral thought. The vicious cycle is complete when the more capable and intelligent Muslim looks for spiritual and religious guidance and ends up going to the product of these parochial establishments. It's ignorance on a massive scale.

I know this isn't absolute for all but it seems like a prominent trend.

We have to also accept that many after deep research and contemplation cannot reconcile themselves with the Islamic faith. This doesn't mean they are evil nor a sleight on the believer. In fact I have seen more humanity and compassion from atheists in my work especially in the developing world than I ever have from religious people and groups, many of whom are pushing their agenda on the most vulnerable.

There is more I'd like to add but I am being called away.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I know a few Muslims who aren't believers and have told me so, but they don't really get affected by it and just go about living their lives as they see fit. I suppose there might be a problem if they were shouting it from the rooftops but they aren't really that bothered about it.