The ones in the west are maybe. I know few pashtun girls who have married white men, they didn't really about religion
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The ones in the west are maybe. I know few pashtun girls who have married white men, they didn't really about religion
(joking)The ground reality is different i would say pushtuns are the most religious of the ethnic groups in pakistan and pukhtun parents are very strict on 5 prayers, fasting etc, but than again we pukhtuns do like to listen to music and some would prefer pukhtunwali over Islamic law, also there is a lot of tribalism in Pukhtun society which The prophet (PBUH) hated.
Indiafan
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You gave your own answer in the highlighted part. In fact proper science has been only for a few 100s of years. So basically human beings have not had enough time to find the answer. Give science few thousand years more and they might get all the answers
BTW, the answer to the part about planers having precise speed and not colliding is gravity. Many, many planets did collide and got destroyed over time. Only the very few who were right distance from their stars got their orbits and speed
Indiafan
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On the contrary, we are living in one of the golden ages of humanity. Despite all what you see in the news (and we get more bad news because our communication system has evolved to amazing levels), during our current period, the earth has the lowest level of poverty, lowest crime and even lowest terrorism levels. In fact people are claiming world poverty will end by 2035
DoosraTeesra
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I have 100+ Pakistani atheists and some agnostics on my Facebook and hundreds more un-added.
What if science and Humans in the future prove the existence of God? Say, a thousand years from now.
Ever heard of Pascal's Wager?
Aren't humans also Allah's creation? why do we have to blamed for everything bad? when millions of people die in natural disastors everywhere, we blame ourselves for that?
Also the blessings you are talking about are not blessing, no human asked for this life, we were forced to live here. Most of this world and life is misery and suffering, no matter what way you look at it
No. Life is not a misery. Life is a test, and those who practice patience and stood with the truth (Haq) and kept doing the good deeds will be successful. (A rough meaning of part of surah Al-Asr. Scholars say that instead of the entire Quran, only if this Surah alone would have been revealed, it would have been enough for the salvation of entire humanity)
Life is a misery for those who denied the truth (Haq), and perhaps the life here after will also be misery for them.
Those who were swept away by floods, Allah will take care of them. Worry about your own self first.
And those who committed shirk and atrocious crimes and sins small or big and did not repent) and were got away with it in this world WILL face the justice and thus there is a judgement day.
Imagine, a person kills another person and no other human ever knows about it, or a person robs another person and law enforcement can't catch him, how will the justice be served between these two? YES !! THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT.
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Badsha
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To touch on this point. A lot of athiest and non believers will get what they believe. If they say "there is no life after death ect ect" then it is that what they will get. It is a form of hell is it not.
Indiafan
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If there is no life after death, how is it like hell? Isn't it like going to sleep
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again total speculation on your part, without any evidence or reality.
Yeah, tell this to those who are living on the streets in India, Africa etc... the poor kids who dont have enough to eat, or the mothers/fathers who suffer on a daily basis, the people with diseases etc....
Also nobody will deny anything, if the truth was clear. The fact is,even most muslims themselves are confused, let alone other people
Indiafan
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But I did not ask to be tested. Why am I being forced to give the test for loyalty of someone when I didn't even ask for it? If tomorrow, my father says, I made you so you have to be my slave for life, taking my name every day. At the end of the life, I will decide if you deserve to live with me or go to the streets, will it be fair? Won't he be a tyrant and not a loving father?
Except there are people who are born in absolute poverty and disease and suffer throughout the life for no fault of theirs
Also most criminals become criminals because of circumstances. The warden of Alcatraz prison once famously said that having lived with hard core criminals, he has realized that most criminals become criminals only because of circumstances and anyone in their position will do the same
If you are given a test in college, the paper for everyone will be equal. Here one person is born in comfort and educated. He spends his life in leisure and has a lot of time for prayers and rituals. On the other hand someone is born is so abject poverty, he is forced to steal bread to feed his family and has no time for prayers. What kind of test is this when it is not equal for everyone?
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What were you before this life? Nothing.
If the creator can give you life from nothing, can't he give you life again? He who gave you life for the first time, can't he do it for the second time?
You bet there is life after death.
The circumstances of each person will be fully taken into consideration but the test question is the same for everyone, whether you are a believer or not?
Human beings are bound to commit sins and mistakes due to their circumstances but Allah is merciful and forgives if you repent honestly and make sincere intention not to do it again. But if you mistakenly do that sin again, and honestly repent, Allah will forgive you again.
Coming back to the circumstances of the rich and poor. Everyone will be judged according to the means given to him. Look at the reciprocal of what u said;
If there is a person who has a total of $2.00 as his worth he gives $1 in charity in the way of Allah, and there is another person who has $ 1 Billion and he gives $100 million in charity then these two men are not equal in rewards. The one who gave $1 gets HIGHER rewards since he gave 50% of what he had.
And finally, Yes, we didnt ask for this test but key here is submission and patience, otherwise you can't win over Allah no matter what kinda argument or protest you launch or no matter who you.
It's all about humble submission and living your life in hope and fear of Allah. Otherwise try to live forever if you don't want to face him.
It's not about how much money and wealth and status and luxury have you achieved in this life, its primarily about how much have you tried to live in meekness and docility in obedience to your creator.
Tera Gawaandi
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Poor people in India tend to have 3-4 male child's sometimes even more, whereas more and more rich couples are struggling to become parents. Becoming parents is some sort of achievement these days, its in everyone's Twitter/Facebook profile. Some of my sisters in-laws were officers in the Army, Lieutenant colonel/Brigadier/Major etc. Majority of them were not blessed with a child. Leaving Crores and Arabs worth of property behind.
We had a Khatri neighbor, refugees from Peshawar, Pakistan. Poor family but god blessed their 4 sons with 15+ male child's. All look pathan, very light colored eyes, blond hair, white skin. They have fruit juice rehri's lol, we all used to joke they are so beautiful due to over consumption of fruits.
Indiafan
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But I didn't ask for me to be created. So someone created me and wants me to live only a certain way? Why? For his own amusement? I didn't ask for life. I didn't ask for a test. I didn't asked to be judged. You are forcing me into a test I don't even want and then punishing me for failing?
Just think about it, does the creator of any creation asks its creation whether I should create you or not BEFORE creating it? Do you ask the application to create you or not before you write the code?
Does the carpenter asks a chair whether to create it or not before its creation?
For us humans who are the creation, it's all about humble submission. The creator has given you a choice.
Looking at how human body functions and all the skills our brain can achieve, I think we should feel honored to be this fantastic creation, and use the good that we have in us to benefit us and others.
A person like yourself who seem to have a good taste of scholarly literature and who posses good writing skills, I suggest you study Quran a few times, NOT because you want to believe but to enjoy its literary style of approach and the art of addressing people. I hope you will appreciate and enjoy it.
QazzarFan
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And yet organized religions prevent creative thinking and support anti-intellectualism. It makes all the skills our brain can achieve redundant. There are numerous anti-intellectual utterances in highly-systematized religions and yes Islam is one of them. What prevented science and scientific method to take root in the first millennium? Theology and Religion. Religions forbid a truly free thinking society in fear that people will discover the utter garbage they have been feeding the sheep for centuries.
And perhaps you should re-read Quran a few times before preaching others. It's mind boggling how one tends to ignore all the fallacies but more shockingly the downright insinuating nature of the Quran especially towards women. Have you seen the status of women in Islam?
Indiafan
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A son does not ask his father to create him. But once he is born, does the father has the right to treat him like a slave and make him praise him all the time?
It is not much of a choice if I am going to be punished with eternal hell fire if I make the choice which is not liked by God
But doing good for others should come from inside, not because I am afraid of hell or because I want heaven
It is definitely on my to-do list
QazzarFan
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- Some of the key concepts of Islam are hard to accept as they clash with logic and ethics.
- Some of the Hadith stories seem miraculous 1500 yrs ago can now be easily explained via science.
- Quran says menstruating women are impure, punishment for causing the tree to bleed from original sin. Some Islamic scholars even claim that Allah made women stupid due to Eve's sin.
- Sura Al-fatiha curses Jews and Christians constantly...something recited by Muslims numerous times a day.
- Promotes hate against Ahl al-Kitab(Jews, Christians), mentioning how misguided and unfortunate they are which has given rise to the "we against the world" mentality all Muslims have and why you see a lot of Muslims disparaging the West and opposing other spiritual ideologies.
- Absurdities in the Hadith: God turned Jews into pigs, shooting stars are aimed at Jinn who try to listen to Angelic discussions. The devil will **** in your ear if you don't wake up for al-Fajr prayer, Eve was made from Adam's womb.
- The support for absolute illogical practice of circumcision.
- Inequality between men and women; men are superior to women, men get to inherit double that a woman does, men can strike women, women are forced to cover up as if sexual attraction is one way, not both ways.
- Science in the Quran is far from flawless as it is often claimed and most likely has been borrowed from neighboring cultures especially the Greeks. The development of the fetus is a likely contribution of one of Prophet's followers who studied the work of early medical writer Galen.
- It claims to be the perfect word of God, that it is a miracle and yet millions of Muslims are easily oppressed with misinterpreted versions of these sermons. If Quran is so perfect then how come it is so easily manipulated and misinterpreted causing suffering and misfortune for millions?
- It is prescribed that I cannot eat food cooked by the wet hands of a Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist or an Atheist friend.
- The concept of evolution in the Quran.
- Adultery is a major sin and punishable by death. Why did God make humans sexual beings if it is so wrong and dirty? Why did "God" gave us the primal needs of food, sleep & sex? Also why would we be punished for eternity for a finite sin?
- Many other absurdities that are taken as literal fact until proven absurd, which is when Islamic scholars declare these doctrines to be metaphorical work of beauty to save face.
- Islam was meant for the Arabs of the 5th century, and it is therefore getting quickly outdated day by day. It's everything you'd expect from the Arabs from 1500 years ago - Jinn, pilgrimage around the K'abah, sacrificing rituals, ban of all alcohol consumption, no consumption of swine.
I haven't even touched on the subject of inequality of women in the Quran & Islam. It is downright disturbing.
Disclaimer: These are my views and not meant to offend your faith.
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Radiance Of Australis
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That's quite interesting. I and many others that I know of, grew more attached to Islam the more we gained knowledge of universe and Islam.
Interpretation is very interesting.
People are leaving Islam because of extremists? Those extremists do not represent Islam. If those ex-Muslims bothered to do some research or had an ounce of knowledge of Islam, they would not leave it because Islam does not condone violence. (Unless the same ex-Muslims found problems in other aspects ofcourse).
I think it's stupid when people leave Islam for that reason. It's not like leaving a political party because the fellow members are corrupt or violent and you don't feel like they represent you. It's different. But I guess certain people just do not understand how religion works.
If only more people were as tolerant.
Speaking for both sides.
^ Yup. I find sometimes people who do not believe in religion end up showing bigotry. And vice versa.
For me its a personal choice and I have finally found peace inside me. However I admit some people find peace being more religious, and eg my family is the same and kudos to them, they find comfort in knowing there is a God and if that makes them happy it makes me happy. Debates happen on PP but I would never actively go and convince someone to leave religion. My parents,very strong Muslims themselves, raised me Muslim but I was never forced to do anything. My siblings turned more Muslims, I went the other way. I think such answers everyone finds for themselves after soul searching. Cooercion can only take someone so far.
For me its a personal choice and I have finally found peace inside me. However I admit some people find peace being more religious, and eg my family is the same and kudos to them, they find comfort in knowing there is a God and if that makes them happy it makes me happy. Debates happen on PP but I would never actively go and convince someone to leave religion. My parents,very strong Muslims themselves, raised me Muslim but I was never forced to do anything. My siblings turned more Muslims, I went the other way. I think such answers everyone finds for themselves after soul searching. Cooercion can only take someone so far.
Badsha
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It's difficult to convince someone through text/online.
Faith/belief is not based on human based logic. (logic we have developed from human observation). It is something that is in the heart. You either have it or you don't
Faith/belief is not based on human based logic. (logic we have developed from human observation). It is something that is in the heart. You either have it or you don't
Cochin_wala
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I have met ex-Muslim who is a preacher in Catholic church now. he was a "Ustad"(Khateeb) in a main mosque in malabar area of Kerala. he is all bad mouthing his ex-religion telling it's message is not the message of the god of Christianity equating evil to his ex-religion. that may not be a good thing considering criticism that too public does not go well with some people endangering his life.
Chacha_junior
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Still not getting better. Are you kdding. Most western countries are better off now than 100 years ago. Crime is down, poverty is down. More tolerance
Chacha_junior
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Are you speculating here??? Or do you have the inside scoop....
Badsha
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Personal belief
Chacha_junior
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Great post
Chacha_junior
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Hit some key points there. Nice one
endymion248
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That's because Pakhtoons are traditionally very religious. Ever notcided that the most virulent and lound atheists in the US are from the Bible belt?
sunnykhan
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All points are answerable really. It more or less the same what every atheist thinks. Some points don't have any relation with the religion. It's down to you haven't visited a good scholar personally to seek answers.
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Canistani Hero
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Always great to see and discuss what these atheists feel in a civil manner 
sunnykhan
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Always great to see and discuss what these atheists feel in a civil manner
Yes! It's better not to argue with them even if you are on the opposing side just to make them more comfortable and read their views. The curiosity lies in their conversion. We should read it and ask ourselves the same questions and seek the answers. It will help us alot many aspects.
itsme
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Like i said earlier i believe there are no 'god' and even if a creator exist he don't interact,care or do anithyng(like judge ,punish ,reward you)about or with us nor we can understand how or what he is.
By precising 'god','allah','yehovah'...i mean i don't believe in all of human created 'god',all religions and their concept (hell,paradise,imortality...).
And yes i know pascal,he was a great mathematician and philosopher without doubt and i like some of his ideas.But i am personally not agree with pascal wager,i find it quite coward and kiddish firstly ,secondly i think if you lose the gamble (god doesn't exist)you had lose lot of thing in your life like your own way of thinking,deciding(what is good or not for exemple),judging ... even if you want to play the gamble saying 'ok i can't lose anithyng anyway' (what i don't think) you never really gonna believe in god and for me you don't deserve heaven because if this 'god'exist he want you to believe in him sincerely and totally and not by playing gamble.
I am personally secure of my own beliefs,don't need to play a gamble.
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Pascal's wager is an interesting thought. What if the God turns out be Pascal's God and punishes you with double penalty poiints for believing in revisionist thoughts. Or turns out to be a hindu God who then penalises you even more for denying his existence.
the Great Khan
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Ive answered some but obviously Im no scholar so will refrain from answering the ones Im a bit weak on lest i say something wrong and mislead you.
I will say this, Islam inmho undertsands the natural state of a human being. It doesnt shy away from our nature. You may be able to lie to others or yourself but ultimatley it only goes so far.
Ultimaltey inmho it is what defines our morality. and Im fine with that.
That makes it even more interesting since we are looking into the possibility of God's existence.
So now, if you believe that there is NO God then the Hindu God, the Christian God, the Pascal's God, the Jewish God or the Islamic God or whatever God there is, WILL DEFINITELY punish you. This is a lose lose situation.
So now, it comes to a gamble of picking a God and hope that you hit the jackpot. Correct?
The question is, which God to pick??? And the answer is, God is recognized best by his book. You go ahead and weigh each God by studying his book and see which one talks to you.
I have studied the book of Allah and in my judgement, the God of this book is THE ONE for me
Really ????
)lol hahahahahaha !! man o man, you really made me laugh at my own self.
Till now, I thought you were ignorant and arrogant but LOLLLLLL ... your display of sheer cowardice and extreme dumbness tell a totally different story.
I don't think there is any value in more conversation. I happily concede. You won this arguement.
Well, that's your call, and I would have happily crossed the line and join your camp if I knew how to dodge the death and live forever. But since that ain't happening, I am better off staying on this side of the Line.
But yeah, plz do let me know if your camp finds out a way how to live forever. It will save me from playing this gamble
So for now, to you your camp, and to me my camp.
That makes it even more interesting since we are looking into the possibility of God's existence.
So now, if you believe that there is NO God then the Hindu God, the Christian God, the Pascal's God, the Jewish God or the Islamic God or whatever God there is, WILL DEFINITELY punish you. This is a lose lose situation.
So now, it comes to a gamble of picking a God and hope that you hit the jackpot. Correct?
The question is, which God to pick??? And the answer is, God is recognized best by his book. You go ahead and weigh each God by studying his book and see which one talks to you.
I have studied the book of Allah and in my judgement, the God of this book is THE ONE for me
Let me suggest that if there is a God then he will punish the followers of rival Gods harder, almost with a vengence. Those who don't believe in a God might escape lightly. Just as when a king is brutal towards the supporters of its rival kings but will leave the neutrals unharmed.
You only think there are two possible outcomes- punishment or reward. There may well be three- severe punishment, a mild rebuke and a reward. By believing in a God you run the risk of a severe punishment. Not believing is least riskier o the alternatives.
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Indiafan
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I have studied the book of Allah and in my judgement, the God of this book is THE ONE for me
Yes, because you were born in a Muslim household and you were made to read the book right from childhood.
A person born in a practicing catholic household will swear the same about the Bible.
Practicing Hindus are much less today but a person born in a hard core Hindu household and made to read Geeta from a young age will swear the same thing about the Geeta
There are few things at work here
1) A person forms his strongest attachment/memories and passion till the age of 20-25. These things determine what his morals are, his beliefs are, etc. Once formed, it will very rarely change in the future. So if you are exposed to Islam at that formative age, it will become the one true religion to you, just like your mom's dish becomes your favorite dish. And there is no kid who does not think his father is a great person even if told otherwise
2) Studies have shown that once in adulthood, if people are shown negative facts about their beliefs, their belief actually grows stronger. There are two things at work here
a) Confirmation bias - This is the phenomenon when you only see and read what you want to see. So if you see an article supporting your belief, you will read it, approve it and comment on it. On the other hand if the article is against your belief, you will either completely ignore it or at best skip through it and laugh at it. When it comes to remembering them after say 2 years, you will only remember the articles which supported your beliefs and not the ones which do not. We can see PP as an example of this. If you take some threads with liberal/secular title, you can see certain posters coming and posting big posts while the ones who don't support will either not post or make ad-hominum//defensive posts. if it is a religious/conservative thread the effect is reversed. Or take the case of Afridi vs Misbah threads. You will see the same effect
b) The backfire effect - This is a more interesting phenomenon which science has recently discovered and tells a lot about human psyche. So what was seen was, when confronted with facts negative to someone's belief, the beliefs actually got stronger instead of weaker. So if someone believes guns are good and they are shown facts after facts about why guns are bad, their belief in guns will only increase and not decrease. Once something is added to your collection of beliefs, you protect it from harm. You do it instinctively and unconsciously when confronted with attitude-inconsistent information. Over time, the backfire effect helps make you less skeptical of those things which allow you to continue seeing your beliefs and attitudes as true and proper.
So basically the confirmation bias makes you see only what you want and the backfire effect makes you ignore what you don't want.
Now you can see where I am coming from. People who have a set of beliefs right from childhood will have that ingrained in their psyche. So when newer information is presented to them (for example a new religion) they will look at their beliefs as their own (like their own child) and the new information as an outsider (like a neighbor's child). Now who abandons their child for their neighbor's child even if the later is much prettier than yours? So being right or facts do not matter in such cases, it is what memories, emotions and passions you had while growing up which helps
Now we come to the exceptions. People who convert. Why do they do so?
Well some of the reasons are
1) They were not very religious to begin with. So they might be a hindu but never practiced much and were not attached to it. So when a new religion came to them, it was a new thing and not against their passionate beliefs
2) They were confused and lost. Many of the religious converts are these. They are frustrated with life and are looking for a way out. Maybe they don't have any ambition, don't have anything left to live for. Some turn to drugs. Some to a new religion. Whatever gives them a motive to live
3) Then there are some who have got a big shock. They might want to completely let go of their previous life. They want nothing to do with their family friends or old religion. So converting to a new religion is also part of their moving on
4) Some might do it for temporary profit or peer pressure. If you are in a minority religion in a majority area, and that religion is trying to actively convert you, you will see their rituals and customs right from childhood. All your friends will be doing one thing and you will be the lone guy. It is a good likelihood you will convert in your teens
To summarize, I just gave the reasons why someone born in a religion will always think that his is the best and rightful one. But I can bet confirmation bias and the backfire effect will make you either skip these points or ignore them and convince yourself your case is different
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amax
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I cant get the relationship b/w being religious and loyalty to country in OP.
In my case it is probably opposite, the more I became less religious the more patriotic I get in a way ; now I want Pak to be a country with very high Human Development Index as opposed to be a experimental lab for religious fascinations similarly I became more rational in how this development will be achieved ; a vibrant/liberal/pluralistic society as opposed to "bastion" of particular faith/ideology.
In my case it is probably opposite, the more I became less religious the more patriotic I get in a way ; now I want Pak to be a country with very high Human Development Index as opposed to be a experimental lab for religious fascinations similarly I became more rational in how this development will be achieved ; a vibrant/liberal/pluralistic society as opposed to "bastion" of particular faith/ideology.
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I used to think that this Industrial society is pinnacle in history of human race. While I still have huge amount of respect for contributions of various scientists & people who applied those principles in real world.
But in the end it just proved that we are just another species with same selfish gene like others.
Richard Heinberg said:
It's classic example of one step forward two steps back. If petroleum revolutions had never happened, India,Pakistan , Southeast Asia would have been still hot spot for human population due to it's tropical climate. But now with CO2 emission & it's irreversible damage on environment, These areas won't able to support even population before petroleum revolution.
Resource depletion is very serious at the moment as compered what we believe about endless growth for next 300 to 400 years.
If you are interested in this subject then please go through documentary called as 'Crisis of Civilization' & some of blogs like thearchdruidreport by John Michael Greer. If any of predictions mentioned in the book (Six Degrees_ Our Future on a Hotter Planet - Mark Lynas) are remotely true then IMO next century itself will see overshoot, and die-off of majority of human population.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMgOTQ7D_lk
I don't think that peak oil experts are 100 % true about impending future but they do make very logical argument about end of growth as of now.(Peak oil already happened between 2006 to 2010). Even short term future of next 30 to 40 years is scary let alone 300 or 400 years.
---we’ve already burnt through most f what’s economically viable to extract, and the EROEI of what’s left is dropping steadily as quality declines and costs rise. Back in the day when most petroleum on the market was light sweet crude from shallow onshore wells, its EROEI could be as high as 200; nowadays, a large and growing fraction of liquid fuels comes from deep offshore fields, fracked shales, tar sands, and other energy- and resource-intensive places, so the average for petroleum as a whole is down somewhere around 30 and sinking.
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.in/2013/09/the-next-ten-billion-years.html
Blog about how alternate renewable energies are not sufficient to support current global population to replace fossil fuel which itself have million years of sunlight stored in it.
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.in/2014/01/seven-sustainable
-technologies.html
Best bet for survival is to live in nothern USA, Canada, Europe & Russia as majority of areas with tropical climate will become inhabitable.
Disclaimer- These are own views based on my own logic & arguments made by peak oil activists. Sorry for being off topic. You can agree to disagree
Again, that's your camp. I would have happily joined it If I didnt have to die. If you show me a way to live forever, I am all game.
Nikhil_cric
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Interesting point that you make. I have always found that a high percentage of recent converts to a particular religion are zealots whereas those who were brought up traditionally religious are less so.
So if u r talking about conversion to Islam, then will the entire country of Indonesia be a good example to underline the "zealots"?
Nikhil_cric
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conversion to any religion as a matter of fact. New converts tend to be a bit over the top with their new found faith.
God comes from nothing as well, why can everything else?
Not to derail the discussion. God is suppose to be super intelligent being, according to most theist logic at some point he also come from nothing, isn't it? - If God can be created from nothing why not everything else as well?
Operation of Universe
I have asked this question many times, its not just the matter of creation but the operation as well. How exactly does God operate the universe or multi-verses? - We don't see Angles violating the laws of natures (aka no miracles happen any more)... Does Angles operate at Newtonian level or Quantum level?
Existence of God and Primitive Religions
I personally don't think God create the Universe. At the same time I am not 100% sure how it got created. What I do believe these religions we have on Planet Earth are have very primitive information. The literature in these so called holy books have no new information, there is nothing special about the content in these books. 80% is copy/paste of pervious literature or what was known at the time. To make their literature last long they stamp the word divine on it...
Religion and Science
There is atleast one commonality between religion and Science, both help us deal with unknown. Science focuses on evidence, rationality as the primarily tool. Doubt is the foundation of science. Science doubt itself more than anything else...
Where as religion is based on fear. Superstition of religion is based on fear and is strengthen by obedience and not challenging the Faith. Change and doubt is dangerous for religion.
We human have learned that doubting and experimenting and looking for evidence has help us learned more than any other mechanism or process. That's probably one of the reason Spiritualism is not a very popular method or process in Science.
More scientific literacy is pivotal to the development of civilization. Technology is an application of science. Our brains are not that smarter than the people 1000 years ago (genetic does not evolve that fast), but process of science has helped western civilization to grow much faster in last few hundred years. This is something we should learn from rather than be stubborn about our past, which we don't even learn with honesty!!!
Please See the Cosmos by Carl Sagan that may enlighten you (13 part series, that rage lot of red neck in USA back in late 70s). The new one is starting this Sunday on Fox at 9 PM EST, don't miss out it this one - We need more of these in Pakistan and Muslim world
<iframe src="//player.vimeo.com/video/68345997" width="500" height="387" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/68345997">Carl Sagans Cosmos - Episode 2 - One Voice In The Cosmic Fug</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/kingdomofheart">White Knight</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
BTW: Neil Respond to one of the question about the "purpose of the Universe" pretty nicely and compactly in a 3 mins video below:
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/7pL5vzIMAhs?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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Indiafan
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Isn't that obvious, they would be just trying to fit in and make their mark. Don't you work best when you join a new company and work with new employers? You work like crazy for the first year and try to impress all. On the other hand people who have been there for years get more comfortable, a little lazy. They know which rules to disregard, which timelines to stretch. This is true for human beings joining any group, peer circle, friends, community. Not just religion
Indiafan
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If it is only fear of death and afterlife which is guiding your choice (I am sorry your post seem to indicate that) then it is not faith but just fear of dying
in my opinion those calling them selves ex muslims are/were not muslims in the first place.
a muslim should have deep knowladge about islam...and anybody who has knowladge about islam will NEVER EVER Convert.n cal thmslvs ex muslim.
and for those who call them selves ex muslims. i pray allah shows YOU , ME & ALL PEOPLE THE TRUE PATH..
a muslim should have deep knowladge about islam...and anybody who has knowladge about islam will NEVER EVER Convert.n cal thmslvs ex muslim.
and for those who call them selves ex muslims. i pray allah shows YOU , ME & ALL PEOPLE THE TRUE PATH..
Indiafan
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See, this is called jabardasti. Everyone else is in the wrong and only we are in the right. Anyone who converts to your religion is on the right path and great. Anyone who leaves even if they have good reasons are people who don't understand, etc
Please read my above post(post 131) about why, when something is ingrained into you right from childhood, you will always support it as the right thing even if I showed you a 100 proofs. It's called confirmation bias and the backfire effect
Anyone will always claim their own mom and dad are the best, their families rituals and religion are always the correct one
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the Great Khan
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where did you get this from? Allah swt has neither a beginning nor an end. That is the Islamic position. Only nothing comes from nothing.
“Or were they created by nothing? Or were they the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heavens and earth? Rather, they are not certain.” Quran 52:35-36
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Crazy_K
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As long as you ensure you teach them how to think, using reason and logic.
Crazy_K
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That is wishful thinking. You hope for a just world, but have come to the realisation it isn't really that just. Bad people get away with things, innocent people suffer. We see the imbalance and look to console ourselves by saying, "They'll get theirs".
Same as above. You can't stand the world could possibly be unfair and will not accept it.
Even most ardent believers have come to that realisation and work on fixing things in this life.
Explain the benefits of heaven please. What is so good about it that you wish to be there.
Crazy_K
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Those sound like excuses for the believers to do evil like those who they feel will receive their punishment in the future.
What if the criminal, the person you feel will get theirs in the afterlife, also chooses to repent? Now what happens? He's got away with the crime he's commited and people he affected negatively in this life, but he has repented and therefore won't be punished in the afterlife, where is the justice for those who suffered as a result of his actions?
Why doesn't this seem unjust to you?
So How God/Allah was created? - Can you explain, how such an intelligent being came in to existence?
This, I find it a bit odd how religious people tend to say how everything has a purpose and everything is created with a cause, but when asked who created God they offer the nonsense answer.
Something cannot be eternal. Everything is created.
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May Allah help those to come back on the right path this is all i can say
miandadrules
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Would that only be the case if the creator was subject to the same laws we are?
Cpt. Rishwat
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I don't think anyone can answer that one way or another, at least at this point. Does it prove anything? Well a goldfish can't drive a porsche but that doesn't mean there's no such thing as a sports car.
It does prove something i.e. the fallacy in the argument that there must always be a creator
Cpt. Rishwat
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Well we don't know it's a fallacy because we can't prove it any more than the theist can prove otherwise.
Very good question, and thanks for asking.
(we are assuming here that the criminal/convict has honestly and whole heartedly repented, and he has TRIED his best not to commit that sin again, and he has TRIED to live a good life in an effort to have his good deeds outweigh his bad deeds). agreed ?
In this case, the victim will get leniency and extra rewards when his own accountability is done to balance out the equation. Obviously, he/she may have done some sins in his own life, so those will be forgiven accordingly. And the malice in their hearts will be removed. That's Allah's promise in Quran Chapter 7 verse 43)
Truthfully speaking, on the day of judgement, if I know that forgiving someone paves MY way to haven? HECK YEAH I will forgive him in blink of an eye.
I remember a scholar's prayers who said, "Oh Allah I do NOT need your justice, I need your mercy and your blessings (cuz if the right justice is done to me according to my deeds, I may not be able to make it)
See the wisdom in this Dua?
The other case is, Allah will order the criminal to ask forgiveness from the victim, If the victim forgives Allah forgives.
Allah is not not unjust, he knows what's in your heart and he loves to forgive ....... all you need to do is ask.
The only sin not forgivable in Islam is shirk (associating partners with Allah - worshiping other fake gods etc)
Here:
"Serve Allah, and do not join any partners with him. Do good to parents, relatives, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near and neighbours who are strangers, the friend by your side as well as the traveler, and those whom your right hand possess. Indeed Allah does not love the arrogant and proud ones. Quran 4:36
Crazy_K
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A fire-breathing, flying sloth couldn't churn butter, but that doesn't mean there's no such thing as a fire-breaking, flying sloth
Assuming, theists are correct than there is at least one thing where "creation" doesn't apply => Creator for everything is not necessary.
Assuming atheists are right => Creator for everything is no necessary
So essentially Creator for everything is no necessary
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This whole "life is a test" is a complete non sense. God is suppose to be all about Justice, where as no two people life have similar initialization conditions. Nobody id clear about the specifics of test, its made up as we go. No body asks us weather you want to take part in it or not. If you are born human, you are part of the test...
On top of that, test is for 70-80 years and reward/punishment is for infinite amount of time. Why? - Does not follow any logic...
Faith or Blind belief is fundamental to the test. In Quran or most holy, God is most insecure about his status, and is one of the selfish entity you will ever encounter. Biggest Sin is not believing, which I don't get what believing has to do with you morals? Believing does not require any critical thinking/intellectual or free will(the reason we are tested because we are a thinking/decision making being), does this make any sense??
The more you study the more you realize it was a made up thing, that was design to control the masses. This method has being so successful for thousand of years. But how long people will remain illiterate/ignorant? Religion and or superstition only thrives in illiteracy. That's why process of Science is dangerous to institute of religion and superstition... But inorder to have a self sustain development in the society thinking, analytic and scientific processes has to be at the fore front of society. Right now we look up to west to solve all the problems, while we rest of mind with the drugs of spiritualism and superstition. Then we blame west for their selfishness. Aren't we selfish and hypocrite? - We are not committing ourselves yet want all the fruits of scientific development...
Steven Weinberg (Physicist that shared the Nobel Prize with Abdul Islam), once said that Abdul Islam had hard time getting funding from Muslim world for research in fundamental Physic, although he was popular and respected by Muslim rulers (he was the only Muslim Scientist to get Nobel Prize in Physic). The prime reason was rulers were worried that fundamental science conflicts with religion and can cause problems in the society.
BTW: You look like a sensible and thinking person, I can't imagine you would be following any religion or similar doctrine
Crazy_K
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Very good question, and thanks for asking.
(we are assuming here that the criminal/convict has honestly and whole heartedly repented, and he has TRIED his best not to commit that sin again, and he has TRIED to live a good life in an effort to have his good deeds outweigh his bad deeds). agreed ?
In this case, the victim will get leniency and extra rewards when his own accountability is done to balance out the equation. Obviously, he/she may have done some sins in his own life, so those will be forgiven accordingly. And the malice in their hearts will be removed. That's Allah's promise in Quran Chapter 7 verse 43)
Truthfully speaking, on the day of judgement, if I know that forgiving someone paves MY way to haven? HECK YEAH I will forgive him in blink of an eye.
I remember a scholar's prayers who said, "Oh Allah I do NOT need your justice, I need your mercy and your blessings (cuz if the right justice is done to me according to my deeds, I may not be able to make it)
See the wisdom in this Dua?
The other case is, Allah will order the criminal to ask forgiveness from the victim, If the victim forgives Allah forgives.
Allah is not not unjust, he knows what's in your heart and he loves to forgive ....... all you need to do is ask.
The only sin not forgivable in Islam is shirk (associating partners with Allah - worshiping other fake gods etc)
Here:
"Serve Allah, and do not join any partners with him. Do good to parents, relatives, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near and neighbours who are strangers, the friend by your side as well as the traveler, and those whom your right hand possess. Indeed Allah does not love the arrogant and proud ones. Quran 4:36
Thank you for the detailed response.
Here seems a very complicated system of monitoring each and every action, assigning points to actions, while taking into consideration all factors that have an affect on said action. If you need to take into account the circumstances that lead to whatever happened, you see the labyrinthe it creates. To me it seems an extraordinary length to go to monitor us, time which could be better served doing something to help those in need.
When you talk of forgiving as if its something as simple as saying it. When you've truly been wronged, forgiveness doesn't come easy, without using a horrific example, but if your family suffered at the hands of a certain person, could you forgive him just so you can enjoy heaven? Even worse when you're forced to forgive, that is not forgiveness. I can't think of many things worse than being forced to forgive someone you are not ready to do so.
Cpt. Rishwat
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How do you know it couldn't churn butter?
That's my point, "God Of Gaps" mentality does not solve any purpose. Why creator is need in the first place? -This assumption that things cannot be created without creator does not hold water, at some point things have to come from nothing...
Theists always bring this notion that things cannot be created own their own. But they punt the creation of God as some super natural phenomena. In Science we don't know for sure what happen before big bang but that does not mean we should assume or punt it to super natural without any evidence...
Again its the process and mindset of religion that is lazy and yet arrogant. The piggyback on any thing Science cannot explain at the moment, as to their unexplained theories. There is a reason religious theories never progress. Religions do die over period of time. The primitive religions of today don't have much time, nobody takes the intellectual content of these books seriously, they are getting out dated very quickly with time...
Internet has exposed them also in a way not possible before. It is going to be much more difficult to brain wash kids in future. Its hard to remain in your own well in next few decades... Look at the Taliban, all muslim intellectuals run away from them (they are not far from what fore fathers used to do 1400 years ago)
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Cpt. Rishwat
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That's my point, "God Of Gaps" mentality does not solve any purpose. Why creator is need in the first place? -This assumption that things cannot be created without creator does not hold water, at some point things have to come from nothing...
Theists always bring this notion that things cannot be created own their own. But they punt the creation of God as some super natural phenomena. In Science we don't know for sure what happen before big bang but that does not mean we should assume or punt it to super natural without any evidence...
Again its the process and mindset of religion that is lazy and yet arrogant. The piggyback on any thing Science cannot explain at the moment, as to their unexplained theories. There is a reason religious theories never progress. Religions do die over period of time. The primitive religions of today don't have much time, nobody takes the intellectual content of these books seriously, they are getting out dated very quickly with time...
Internet has exposed them also in a way not possible before. It is going to be much more difficult to brain wash kids in future. Its hard to remain in your own well in next few decades... Look at the Taliban, all muslim intellectuals run away from them (they are not far from what fore fathers used to do 1400 years ago)
Science works best unhindered by preconceptions of any kind and that is why State has to be separated from religion. Do that, then afterwards let those who want to believe in creator or supernatural as they wish.
This is exactly where you got it all wrong.
If Allah was "created" then he is not Allah anymore. He is Allah because he was not created.
This is what makes him Allah - He was NOT created.Here, since you posted a couple of videos above, allow me to post one.
You can skip the introductions if you want, and start from 4:07 to 15:00
The answer is there if you are open to look into it.
I am sorta curious if you could pay special attention from 5:35 to 7:50 and put yourself in his shoes? What do you feel?
[utube]ozFyFwBiAhU[/utube]
amax
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This whole "life is a test" is a complete non sense. God is suppose to be all about Justice, where as no two people life have similar initialization conditions. Nobody id clear about the specifics of test, its made up as we go. No body asks us weather you want to take part in it or not. If you are born human, you are part of the test...
On top of that, test is for 70-80 years and reward/punishment is for infinite amount of time. Why? - Does not follow any logic...
Faith or Blind belief is fundamental to the test. In Quran or most holy, God is most insecure about his status, and is one of the selfish entity you will ever encounter. Biggest Sin is not believing, which I don't get what believing has to do with you morals? Believing does not require any critical thinking/intellectual or free will(the reason we are tested because we are a thinking/decision making being), does this make any sense??
The more you study the more you realize it was a made up thing, that was design to control the masses. This method has being so successful for thousand of years. But how long people will remain illiterate/ignorant? Religion and or superstition only thrives in illiteracy. That's why process of Science is dangerous to institute of religion and superstition... But inorder to have a self sustain development in the society thinking, analytic and scientific processes has to be at the fore front of society. Right now we look up to west to solve all the problems, while we rest of mind with the drugs of spiritualism and superstition. Then we blame west for their selfishness. Aren't we selfish and hypocrite? - We are not committing ourselves yet want all the fruits of scientific development...
Steven Weinberg (Physicist that shared the Nobel Prize with Abdul Islam), once said that Abdul Islam had hard time getting funding from Muslim world for research in fundamental Physic, although he was popular and respected by Muslim rulers (he was the only Muslim Scientist to get Nobel Prize in Physic). The prime reason was rulers were worried that fundamental science conflicts with religion and can cause problems in the society.
BTW: You look like a sensible and thinking person, I can't imagine you would be following any religion or similar doctrine
This is one interesting topic yasir. I recently came across a (prestigious) publication on topic "Does Science make belief in God obsolete?", that include responses from some of the top scientists(mostly Physicists and Biologists both Theists and otherwise) and one interview of Noam chomsky regarding belief etc .
There were almost unanimous response against effects of organised religion and frictions it can produce but the answer to question regarding God wasnt that simple from even atheists .The common response was it is fear/reality of "death" and thus lack of meaning of life(as human brain is more evolved than other organisms so it can have such feeling) and being nothing after death that cause people to find spiritual solace in belief. It cant be proved right or wrong but its scope can be qualified depending upon scientific progress at that time.
some interesting excerpts from different responses , link to publication as you might like reading it.
http://www.templeton.org/belief/essays/essays.pdf
http://www.templeton.org/belief/
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Robert Sapolsky is John A. and Cynthia Fry Gunn Professor of Biological Sciences and professor of neurology and neurological sciences at Stanford University.
"Despite the fact that I’m an atheist, I recognize that belief offers something that
science does not.So why is belief still relevant? To this I’d offer a very a-scientific answer. It is for the ecstasy. I’m not talking about glossolalic frothing in the aisles, nor other excesses that most religions neither generate nor value. I mean those instances where you’re suffused with gratitude for life and experience and the chance to do good, where every neuron is flooded with the momentness of feeling the breeze on its cellular cheek. A scientist or a consumer of science may feel ecstatic about a finding—that it will cure a disease, save a species, or is just stunningly beautiful—but science, as an explanatory system, is not very good at producing ecstasy. For starters, there are good arguments to be made for why science shouldn’t do ecstasy. One reason is that scientific progress so often constitutes minutiae that lurch you two steps back for every three steps forward. It is also because of the content—the gratitude part of ecstasy is particularly hard if you spend your time studying, say, childhood cancer, or the biology of violence, or causes of extinction. By contrast, the potential for ecstasy is deeply intertwined with religiosity, where the mere possibility of belief and faith in the absence of proof is where it can be an ecstatic, moving truth. !is may seem an unfair tilting of the debate against science. After all, you wouldn’t write an essay trashing the profession of commodities broker because it doesn’t produce ecstasy. But building your life’s explanations around science isn’t a profession. It is, at its core, an emotional contract, an agreement to derive comfort only from rationality.
Science is the best explanatory system that we have, and religiosity as an alternative has a spectacular potential for harm that permeates and distorts every domain of decision-making and attribution in our world. But just because science can explain so many unknowns doesn’t mean that it can explain everything, or that it can vanquish the unknowable. !at is why religious belief is not obsolete. !e world would not be a better place without ecstasy, but it would be one if there wasn’t religion. But don’t expect science to fill the hole that would be left behind, or to convince you that there is none.
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Pervez Hoodbhoy-Pakistan Physicist
"But you must find a science-friendly, science-compatible God. First, try the pantheon of available Creators. Inspect thoroughly. If none fits the bill, invent one. God of your choice must be a stickler for divine principles. Science does not take kindly to a deity who, if piqued or euphoric, sets aside seismological or cosmological principles and causes the moon to shiver, the earth to split asunder, or the universe to suddenly reverse its expansion. !is God must, among other things, be stoically indifferent to supplications for changing local meteorological
conditions, the task having already been assigned to the discipline of fluid dynamics.
Nietzsche and the theothanatologists were plain wrong—God is neither dead nor about to die. Even as the divine habitat shrinks before the aggressive encroachment of science, the quantum foam of space-time creates spare universes aplenty, offering space both for a science-friendly God as well as for self-described “deeply religious non-believers” like Einstein. Many eminent practitioners of science have successfully persuaded themselves that there is no logical contradiction between faith and belief by finding a suitable God, or by clothing a traditional God appropriately. Unsure of why they happen to exist, humans are likely to scour the heavens forever in search of meaning."
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Michael Shermer is the publisher of Skeptic magazine (www.skeptic.com), a monthly columnist for Scientific American
"Science traffics in the natural, not the supernatural. !e only God that science could discover would be a natural being, an entity that exists in space and time and is constrained by the laws of nature. A supernatural God would be so wholly Other that no science could know Him. Does science make belief in God obsolete? Belief, no. God, yes."
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What I want to ask is that what is your views on one's personal/customized belief set (w/o any organised religion) in response to one's spiritual need(arises from basic realities about human life).? Do you think this would have same issues as organised religion.?
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Crazy_K
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haven't watched the whole video, but a few issues.
The person he spoke to seemed to disregard evolution, even though there is piles of evidence to support it.
Secondly about the rules of the universe being there, why does someone have to draw up these rules, these rules are universal truths, they don't require someone to put them into place.
After insisting everything requires a creator, there's a case of special pleading for God, who doesn't require a creator
The person he spoke to seemed to disregard evolution, even though there is piles of evidence to support it.
Secondly about the rules of the universe being there, why does someone have to draw up these rules, these rules are universal truths, they don't require someone to put them into place.
After insisting everything requires a creator, there's a case of special pleading for God, who doesn't require a creator
There is not a whole lot here that I can disagree with. There are; however, a couple of points that I would like to add.
To answer your first part, these are some of the factors that do play a role in one's life - no doubt.
I will tell you my own experience. While growing up in Pakistan my connection to outer world was news, tv, movies, telephonic communication, letters etc etc (no internet). I was not raised into a hardcore religious family. Matter of fact, I attended a Christian school where we had a Church within the premises of our school. Islam was the predominant religion so definitely it had effect on me but that was not all. I knew what Christianity was. As kids we even played in the Church and sang a couple of hymns, and had Christian family friends - still do.
So when I got out of Pakistan and travelled a little bit for 20 odd years in various countries of the world (including regions in Africa, Eastern and Western Europe, Americas and Eouth East Asia), I had a chance to realize how other people lived and what their believes were in a practical life, I had a first hand chance to compare it with my own faith. And guess what I felt? I was thankful to God that I was a believer. My belief only became firm that the biggest blessing of Allah on me was that I was a believer.
Definitely other folks may have different experiences in life. I just described mine. I learned how to respect other faiths and it only resulted in the confirmation of my own belief.
To answer the second part of your comment about conversions. Again, not a whole lot I can disagree with.
The point I would like to add is that you have to realize the trend here. What gives me confidence is that Islam has stood the test of time. It was like we all brought a dish in a Potluck and mine was the winner. Look around, every other faith is facing a decline in followers while no matter how hard the media tries to defame it, more and more people are converting to Islam. Yes, there is an extremely small minority that leaves Islam (again, various debatable reasons) but in my experience folks who enter Islam have two major reasons - First, they are not 100% satisfied with their current belief system and/or they are brave enough to compare their faith with other faiths to find what they believe is the truth and bravely stand with it. As many converted Muslims say, "Guidance comes to those who seek it."
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The issue is not Atheist's arrogance but the Theistic position that there is an absolute truth. One would be hard pressed to find to find an Atheist who regards his position to be absolute 100% true.
It is always a Theist who is adamant about the need of a creator
It is always a Theist who is adamant about the need of a creator
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