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Any Ex-Muslims here?

Thank you for the detailed response.
Here seems a very complicated system of monitoring each and every action, assigning points to actions, while taking into consideration all factors that have an affect on said action. If you need to take into account the circumstances that lead to whatever happened, you see the labyrinthe it creates. To me it seems an extraordinary length to go to monitor us, time which could be better served doing something to help those in need.
When you talk of forgiving as if its something as simple as saying it. When you've truly been wronged, forgiveness doesn't come easy, without using a horrific example, but if your family suffered at the hands of a certain person, could you forgive him just so you can enjoy heaven? Even worse when you're forced to forgive, that is not forgiveness. I can't think of many things worse than being forced to forgive someone you are not ready to do so.

That's an even better question and I appreciate that you keep asking.

To monitor and record each and every good or bad action (to the size of a dust spec) of every human being that ever lived (say about 10 Billion as of now) and create a point system in order to render justice? - Who can do it? ONLY God. And that's why he is God. If you can do it, you can become God as well. :)

No, there is no forceful forgiveness. As I said there are two cases, you have the right to forgive and earned rewards OR you have the right to take revenge and get ready to go through your own accountability. It's fair game. Sorry if I wasn't elaborative enough to explain this.
I told you my personal choice - If there was a hell pit on my left side and I am holding a basket full of sins, and there is Heaven on my right side, and if I am given the choice to forgive the criminal and enter Haven, and also have the malice and ill feeling removed from my heart then I will immediately jump on the opportunity and enter into Haven for eternity cuz that's the ultimate success. Personally, I would not take the chance of taking revenge and go thru a trial of my own accountability that has a chance of opening up the possibility of either haven or hell. No, I won't take that chance, why should I?

You may have a different choice but that's your call. But do you think it will be fair that you take revenge and then you also want your own sins be forgiven? I am not sure but it doesn't add up for me that, I don't extend mercy but I should expect it? :)

But who knows if you have a perfect record of good deeds and you are sure in your heart that you can take the revenge and still guaranteed to pass thru own accountability without any mercy and without any forgiveness. I know I don't.

Anyway, here is recording and monitoring promise. We have a free will; however, our actions will be brought in front of us.

Quran has promised it in Chapter 99

So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it,
And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it.

[utube]XunR9qLCaco[/utube]​


Now, to answer the second part, the family member who was a victim of the crime has the first say. He or She or They have the choice to forgive or take revenge since they are the direct victims. You may not need to forgive or take revenge on someone else's behalf, but surely you will get the rewards of suffering and pain it caused you with no fault of yours.
 
haven't watched the whole video, but a few issues.
The person he spoke to seemed to disregard evolution, even though there is piles of evidence to support it.
Secondly about the rules of the universe being there, why does someone have to draw up these rules, these rules are universal truths, they don't require someone to put them into place.
After insisting everything requires a creator, there's a case of special pleading for God, who doesn't require a creator

No, this is the Abdul Raheem Green's islamic perspective on evolution.

[utube]g66o9Pkyq08[/utube]​

Otherwise, this is another video by non-muslims, nothing to do with Islam. Bring all the science you can and go ahead try to answer it.

[utube]fiJdfCiWo4I[/utube]​
 
No, this is the Abdul Raheem Green's islamic perspective on evolution.

[utube]g66o9Pkyq08[/utube]​

Otherwise, this is another video by non-muslims, nothing to do with Islam. Bring all the science you can and go ahead try to answer it.

[utube]fiJdfCiWo4I[/utube]​

Yeah it is all a conspiracy. Also Humans never landed on the moon as that would be haram. I mean how would they face Kabba with the earth constantly rotating on its axis :moyo
 
So How God/Allah was created? - Can you explain, how such an intelligent being came in to existence?

You're mistaking duration (metaphysical scale) with time (physical realm), the world has never been "created" in the temporal sense ; it has been manifested, remember the hadith qudsî, "I was a hidden treasure and I loved to be known; so I created the creatures and made Myself known to them", namely there hasn't been "creation", but an act of manifestation of God's names and attributes (the phenomenal world), and that act of manifestation (and not "creation") - which the Qur'an portrays as perpetual - is God's Self-cognizance, and thus, even the "end of times" just means a hierarchic transformation, and not anarchic destruction, as "all that lives on earth or in the heavens is bound to pass away: but forever will abide thy Sustainer's Self, full of majesty and glory" (55:26-27).

The idea of "creation" or "end of times" never existed in any traditional system (nor the idea of Paradise and Hell), so your question is flawed by its semantics, but I don't "blame" you, it's just the flavour of the Kali-Yuga era, like parliamentary democracy or racial mixing, though I hope you have the modesty to admit that being "a-theist" is as dogmatic as being "deeply religious" (both are the polar reflects of the same reality, admittedly the former lacks a militant bigotry) if such are the questions.
 
Yeah it is all a conspiracy. Also Humans never landed on the moon as that would be haram. I mean how would they face Kabba with the earth constantly rotating on its axis :moyo

:) :) :)

The first video gave a lot of respect to the knowledge of science and the scientific method. But I guess you didn't get it.

And for the second video, I specifically said it has NOTHING to do with religion but you HAD to drag religion into it. :)
Can't really answer the questions posted in the video, can we? :)

But then, how could you? Those Ph.D professors and scientists couldn't. Looks like the theory of evolution is too hard to handle for you. For you, I would recommend going back to Elementary School and repeat the lesson on what is scientific method based on. Here is a refresher; "The collection of data through observation and experimentation".

And for a practical lesson, get a spherical ball. Draw a black box onto it with a pen or marker. Then draw an object facing the black box, and finally draw an arrow between the object and the black box so that the tail of the arrow is towards the object and vertex of the arrow is towards the black box. (do you know what's a vertex?)

Now, spin the ball anyway you want, circular motion, round motion, clock wise - anti clock wise, orbital motion, rotation from left to right or right to left, rotation on it's axis... no matter which direction the ball moves, the arrow will always face the box and hence the object will also face the black box.
 
:) :) :)

The first video gave a lot of respect to the knowledge of science and the scientific method. But I guess you didn't get it.

And for the second video, I specifically said it has NOTHING to do with religion but you HAD to drag religion into it. :)
Can't really answer the questions posted in the video, can we? :)

But then, how could you? Those Ph.D professors and scientists couldn't. Looks like the theory of evolution is too hard to handle for you. For you, I would recommend going back to Elementary School and repeat the lesson on what is scientific method based on. Here is a refresher; "The collection of data through observation and experimentation".

And for a practical lesson, get a spherical ball. Draw a black box onto it with a pen or marker. Then draw an object facing the black box, and finally draw an arrow between the object and the black box so that the tail of the arrow is towards the object and vertex of the arrow is towards the black box. (do you know what's a vertex?)

Now, spin the ball anyway you want, circular motion, round motion, clock wise - anti clock wise, orbital motion, rotation from left to right or right to left, rotation on it's axis... no matter which direction the ball moves, the arrow will always face the box and hence the object will also face the black box.

Did I say anything regarding the people in the video? and as for praying directions, I don't need one as I am not a Muslim.
 
Did I say anything regarding the people in the video? and as for praying directions, I don't need one as I am not a Muslim.

Who cares whether you are a muslim or not? It's your own call. Do what pleases you.

You were frustratingly mocking a religion in a subtle way and were wondering about the direction of kaaba while the earth was rotating on it's axis, and I replied to you how it's done.
 
This whole "life is a test" is a complete non sense. God is suppose to be all about Justice, where as no two people life have similar initialization conditions. Nobody id clear about the specifics of test, its made up as we go. No body asks us weather you want to take part in it or not. If you are born human, you are part of the test...

On top of that, test is for 70-80 years and reward/punishment is for infinite amount of time. Why? - Does not follow any logic...

Faith or Blind belief is fundamental to the test. In Quran or most holy, God is most insecure about his status, and is one of the selfish entity you will ever encounter. Biggest Sin is not believing, which I don't get what believing has to do with you morals? Believing does not require any critical thinking/intellectual or free will(the reason we are tested because we are a thinking/decision making being), does this make any sense??

The more you study the more you realize it was a made up thing, that was design to control the masses. This method has being so successful for thousand of years. But how long people will remain illiterate/ignorant? Religion and or superstition only thrives in illiteracy. That's why process of Science is dangerous to institute of religion and superstition... But inorder to have a self sustain development in the society thinking, analytic and scientific processes has to be at the fore front of society. Right now we look up to west to solve all the problems, while we rest of mind with the drugs of spiritualism and superstition. Then we blame west for their selfishness. Aren't we selfish and hypocrite? - We are not committing ourselves yet want all the fruits of scientific development...

Steven Weinberg (Physicist that shared the Nobel Prize with Abdul Islam), once said that Abdul Islam had hard time getting funding from Muslim world for research in fundamental Physic, although he was popular and respected by Muslim rulers (he was the only Muslim Scientist to get Nobel Prize in Physic). The prime reason was rulers were worried that fundamental science conflicts with religion and can cause problems in the society.

BTW: You look like a sensible and thinking person, I can't imagine you would be following any religion or similar doctrine ;-)


Elaborate? Back your claim with examples.
 
You're mistaking duration (metaphysical scale) with time (physical realm), the world has never been "created" in the temporal sense ; it has been manifested, remember the hadith qudsî, "I was a hidden treasure and I loved to be known; so I created the creatures and made Myself known to them", namely there hasn't been "creation", but an act of manifestation of God's names and attributes (the phenomenal world), and that act of manifestation (and not "creation") - which the Qur'an portrays as perpetual - is God's Self-cognizance, and thus, even the "end of times" just means a hierarchic transformation, and not anarchic destruction, as "all that lives on earth or in the heavens is bound to pass away: but forever will abide thy Sustainer's Self, full of majesty and glory" (55:26-27).

The idea of "creation" or "end of times" never existed in any traditional system (nor the idea of Paradise and Hell), so your question is flawed by its semantics, but I don't "blame" you, it's just the flavour of the Kali-Yuga era, like parliamentary democracy or racial mixing, though I hope you have the modesty to admit that being "a-theist" is as dogmatic as being "deeply religious" (both are the polar reflects of the same reality, admittedly the former lacks a militant bigotry) if such are the questions.

This is exactly where you got it all wrong.

If Allah was "created" then he is not Allah anymore. He is Allah because he was not created. :) This is what makes him Allah - He was NOT created.

Here, since you posted a couple of videos above, allow me to post one.
You can skip the introductions if you want, and start from 4:07 to 15:00 :)
The answer is there if you are open to look into it.

I am sorta curious if you could pay special attention from 5:35 to 7:50 and put yourself in his shoes? What do you feel?


[utube]ozFyFwBiAhU[/utube]​

Again you are using super natural properties to define Allah. If Allah live in a realm where concept of time or duration, beginning or end, creation or destruction does not exist, then how he created those things? - The problem still remains who created that realm? - If one thing can be created on his own, they why not others? - Why in a particular realm there would be only one entity?

These concepts are not very scientific, and does not help anybody. There was a time philosopher were into the weeds of meta Physics (not really a science), rather than data and evidence based science. Science is harder you have to prove something in reality, and often time predict future based on the theory. BTW: Micro Wave back ground was proof of Big Bang, after that Big Bang become the most recognizable theory of creation of Universe.

The other problem with such a hypothesis is that since such a imaginary realm does not exists, one can come up with all kinds of rules, who can challenge them? - If you control the rules, you can build any logic. We can build a God in a software program with what ever rule set we want, a God simulation. - Note: Scientist did simulate the multi-verse theory using a super computer, by tweaking the fundamental constants of particle to see which models can be sustainable.

Intellectually I would be bother by non-testable concepts. Why keep believing in such a thing that is just a metaphorical concept and never be a real thing? - If some time in future we discover more details than its a different story, so far it looks like a made up thing nothing substantive.

The other problem is just believing or Ratification of concepts is of no use. I have never like to just memorize things, if I don't understand it does not increase my intellect. If nobody in the world understand or will ever understand, why bother believing in such concepts? - Believing in these concepts is not making Theist any more smarter, knowledgable or useful.

More importantly if God or Allah knows we can never understand his realm. Why he is insisting us to Ratify those believes? - What kind of choice is this where I am blindly following something? - And this blind belief or Rita is pivotal in deciding my eternal life? - Essentially I am living 70-80 years in this realm and he is keep reminding me that you need to go back to the other realm where death/life/time etc concepts does not exist, what ever you do in those 70-80 years will decide how you live in eternal realm. For 90% of the population the choice is by birth, your birth is not your choice. Does this make any sense? - Is it worth wasting you life in having Faith in such ideologies? - Not for me!!
 
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This is exactly where you got it all wrong.

If Allah was "created" then he is not Allah anymore. He is Allah because he was not created. :) This is what makes him Allah - He was NOT created.

Here, since you posted a couple of videos above, allow me to post one.
You can skip the introductions if you want, and start from 4:07 to 15:00 :)
The answer is there if you are open to look into it.

I am sorta curious if you could pay special attention from 5:35 to 7:50 and put yourself in his shoes? What do you feel?


[utube]ozFyFwBiAhU[/utube]​

Ethics in modern society

In the video the person is relating ethics with religious belief. Ethics are not purely driven by religion. In most societies ethics are mostly common, which is a learned behavior rather than driven by divine text.

There are many ethical values that are driven by better understanding and awareness of ourselves and world around us using processes of science. For example: Equality between men and women was not seen before (this is still not there in most muslim societies and never have being in past including the founders. Even in Quran women are not considered equal to men)... Discrimination with minorities is another area, where religious societies in general and muslim specific falls short greatly. There are many controversial laws in many muslim countries, that are design to suppress freedom of speech and expression, this is making those societies more illiterate and ill-torrent. In past during the founders time, taxing people based on religion was law of land. Now a days one cannot even think about Faith tax ;-)

Slavery was another practice that was not legally forbidden in Islamic societies including founders era. Slave trade was common practice throughout the history of mankind. It has taken a back seat forcefully only in last few decades...

Education in masses is another area where Faith based societies were weak. Religion was tool used by Feudal to control the masses for most part. Islamic societies were using the exact same practice. In modern society importance of education (not Faith but evidence based) has become lot more prominent. This is again a learnt behavior. Even religious societies wants to make their kids doctors and engineers. So far we are creating Rita culture doctors and engineers, but hopefully that will improve by the end of this century.

Punishments is another area where modern society is more civic. Punishments in hollybooks are also too barbaric for modern society. Which value life lot more.

There is a lot of evidence that we are driving our ethics by experience and not by some divine text. Divine text is out dated as far as ethics is concerned...
 
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What I want to ask is that what is your views on one's personal/customized belief set (w/o any organised religion) in response to one's spiritual need(arises from basic realities about human life).? Do you think this would have same issues as organised religion.?

Separation of Church and state model has helped create a free thinking society. That was more productive then the status quo.

Even if Science and Atheism completely dominate the theist, this does not mean all our social or political problems will go away. The whole purpose of this openness and free thinking culture is to increase the productivity, efficiency, intellect of society. So that society can achieve self sustain development. It can solve their problems by themselves.

So far we don't have lot of data on the Software evolution. 4B years of Hardware evolution on earth revolves on the survival of the fittest. Keep in mind, its not the strongest, but the one who fit the environment best survives. We don't know how the software evolution is going to happen. This principle still holds in Software realm as well, the one who fits the environment best survives. But we don't have much data.

The political struggles and competition among ourselves will always be there since we are fighting for the same resources. In future there could be a different category of grouping (may not be based on religion, race, geography), if science and free thinking becomes the only dominating culture... Because of this competition we have our weak moments, insecurities too, that's why people turn to religion or superstitious... Its like drugs or even sleep, you have take a breather before starting again :-(
 
Great posts Yasir.

In the video the person is relating ethics with religious belief. Ethics are not purely driven by religion. In most societies ethics are mostly common, which is a learned behavior rather than driven by divine text.

Let me just add that even the ethics and moral codes that various religions take credit for, they pre- exited the revelation (or evolving) of various religions. Religion only codified and some times slightly modified the codes. While that in itself would have been a good thing what it also did was it stopped the process of evolution of moral codes. It should come as no surprise that most religions still preach the morality of their respective times and societies.
 
That's an even better question and I appreciate that you keep asking.

To monitor and record each and every good or bad action (to the size of a dust spec) of every human being that ever lived (say about 10 Billion as of now) and create a point system in order to render justice? - Who can do it? ONLY God. And that's why he is God. If you can do it, you can become God as well. :)

No, there is no forceful forgiveness. As I said there are two cases, you have the right to forgive and earned rewards OR you have the right to take revenge and get ready to go through your own accountability. It's fair game. Sorry if I wasn't elaborative enough to explain this.
I told you my personal choice - If there was a hell pit on my left side and I am holding a basket full of sins, and there is Heaven on my right side, and if I am given the choice to forgive the criminal and enter Haven, and also have the malice and ill feeling removed from my heart then I will immediately jump on the opportunity and enter into Haven for eternity cuz that's the ultimate success. Personally, I would not take the chance of taking revenge and go thru a trial of my own accountability that has a chance of opening up the possibility of either haven or hell. No, I won't take that chance, why should I?

You may have a different choice but that's your call. But do you think it will be fair that you take revenge and then you also want your own sins be forgiven? I am not sure but it doesn't add up for me that, I don't extend mercy but I should expect it? :)

But who knows if you have a perfect record of good deeds and you are sure in your heart that you can take the revenge and still guaranteed to pass thru own accountability without any mercy and without any forgiveness. I know I don't.

Anyway, here is recording and monitoring promise. We have a free will; however, our actions will be brought in front of us.

Quran has promised it in Chapter 99

So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it,
And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it.

[utube]XunR9qLCaco[/utube]​


Now, to answer the second part, the family member who was a victim of the crime has the first say. He or She or They have the choice to forgive or take revenge since they are the direct victims. You may not need to forgive or take revenge on someone else's behalf, but surely you will get the rewards of suffering and pain it caused you with no fault of yours.

When the option is to forgive or face hell, I'd say its forced.
When you say forgiving do you mean not taking revenge?
As I feel there is more to forgiveness than just exacting revenge, the inner pain, resentment and such.
 
No, this is the Abdul Raheem Green's islamic perspective on evolution.

[utube]g66o9Pkyq08[/utube]​

Otherwise, this is another video by non-muslims, nothing to do with Islam. Bring all the science you can and go ahead try to answer it.

[utube]fiJdfCiWo4I[/utube]​

Don't know the first guy, but you actually posted a Ray Comfort video as your evidence. Sorry that guy has no credibility. I've seen plenty of his debates to know how dishonest he is.
 
Well..Just a question..

What do you Guys believe?.If Allah(SWT) did not create this world..Then how could it all start..

One thing led to other..simple microorganisms..to complex animals...simple elemnts fused over billions of years..collision gave minerals..etc

But How did it all start..I mean just imgine..the first micro-particle...The first matter..who created it and why..Who organised this symmetry..who adjusted speeds of planets..If everything is so random..how do Planets have their Precise orbits marked out and have not collided in Billions of years..

It has been like this..from eternity..and we decided learning Science ,,,only some thousands of years ago..

Anyone?

Just because we don't know doesn't mean God did it. It just means we have to look deeper for the explanation.
 
Just because we don't know doesn't mean God did it. It just means we have to look deeper for the explanation.

When most people have a sandwich , they don't read the label to see what the ingredients are or in which country it was made or how many calories per serving it has
It is not in human instinct to figure out how stuff was made or by whom

It was why we are shocked that even after eating buckets of fried chicken, we are shown videos of animals being slaughtered and are shocked
We play football from the age of 5 but are shocking when we hear of migrant kids dying of starvation and over exertion

My point is that we don't consider how we are blessed with sunlight, how we have been given the correct body organs to survive and live, we take it for granted
But when someone asks us to thank someone for that very same gift, we become staggered and bemused and question the logic and believe that we have been give these gifts by just luck and chance and if anything we have blessed ourselves with these blessings because we can somehow muster up some illogical explanation as to how it all transpired
 
That's an even better question and I appreciate that you keep asking.

To monitor and record each and every good or bad action (to the size of a dust spec) of every human being that ever lived (say about 10 Billion as of now) and create a point system in order to render justice? - Who can do it? ONLY God. And that's why he is God. If you can do it, you can become God as well. :)

No, there is no forceful forgiveness. As I said there are two cases, you have the right to forgive and earned rewards OR you have the right to take revenge and get ready to go through your own accountability. It's fair game. Sorry if I wasn't elaborative enough to explain this.
I told you my personal choice - If there was a hell pit on my left side and I am holding a basket full of sins, and there is Heaven on my right side, and if I am given the choice to forgive the criminal and enter Haven, and also have the malice and ill feeling removed from my heart then I will immediately jump on the opportunity and enter into Haven for eternity cuz that's the ultimate success. Personally, I would not take the chance of taking revenge and go thru a trial of my own accountability that has a chance of opening up the possibility of either haven or hell. No, I won't take that chance, why should I?

You may have a different choice but that's your call. But do you think it will be fair that you take revenge and then you also want your own sins be forgiven? I am not sure but it doesn't add up for me that, I don't extend mercy but I should expect it? :)

But who knows if you have a perfect record of good deeds and you are sure in your heart that you can take the revenge and still guaranteed to pass thru own accountability without any mercy and without any forgiveness. I know I don't.

Anyway, here is recording and monitoring promise. We have a free will; however, our actions will be brought in front of us.

Quran has promised it in Chapter 99

So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it,
And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it.

[utube]XunR9qLCaco[/utube]​


Now, to answer the second part, the family member who was a victim of the crime has the first say. He or She or They have the choice to forgive or take revenge since they are the direct victims. You may not need to forgive or take revenge on someone else's behalf, but surely you will get the rewards of suffering and pain it caused you with no fault of yours.



Feeling really emotional after that surah.
 
When most people have a sandwich , they don't read the label to see what the ingredients are or in which country it was made or how many calories per serving it has
It is not in human instinct to figure out how stuff was made or by whom

Worst line I have ever read in this debate. :91: Thankfully others weren't like you otherwise we would be sitting and talking in a cave right now next to a fire instead of cosy homes and the internet.
 
Ethics in modern society

In the video the person is relating ethics with religious belief. Ethics are not purely driven by religion. In most societies ethics are mostly common, which is a learned behavior rather than driven by divine text.

There are many ethical values that are driven by better understanding and awareness of ourselves and world around us using processes of science. For example: Equality between men and women was not seen before (this is still not there in most muslim societies and never have being in past including the founders. Even in Quran women are not considered equal to men)... Discrimination with minorities is another area, where religious societies in general and muslim specific falls short greatly. There are many controversial laws in many muslim countries, that are design to suppress freedom of speech and expression, this is making those societies more illiterate and ill-torrent. In past during the founders time, taxing people based on religion was law of land. Now a days one cannot even think about Faith tax ;-)

Slavery was another practice that was not legally forbidden in Islamic societies including founders era. Slave trade was common practice throughout the history of mankind. It has taken a back seat forcefully only in last few decades...

Education in masses is another area where Faith based societies were weak. Religion was tool used by Feudal to control the masses for most part. Islamic societies were using the exact same practice. In modern society importance of education (not Faith but evidence based) has become lot more prominent. This is again a learnt behavior. Even religious societies wants to make their kids doctors and engineers. So far we are creating Rita culture doctors and engineers, but hopefully that will improve by the end of this century.

Punishments is another area where modern society is more civic. Punishments in hollybooks are also too barbaric for modern society. Which value life lot more.

There is a lot of evidence that we are driving our ethics by experience and not by some divine text. Divine text is out dated as far as ethics is concerned...

Good post
 
Ethics in modern society

In the video the person is relating ethics with religious belief. Ethics are not purely driven by religion.In most societies ethics are mostly common, which is a learned behavior rather than driven by divine text.

based on what? chance? did the basis for ethics come from thin air? learned beahviour from what? what is the basis of ethics? where does it actually come from?

There are many ethical values that are driven by better understanding and awareness of ourselves and world around us using processes of science. For example: Equality between men and women was not seen before (this is still not there in most muslim societies and never have being in past including the founders. Even in Quran women are not considered equal to men)...

science doesnt see men as equal to women. Thats why women to ebcome equal have to become more like men. That in itself is inequality. If you look at it from a purely scientific view then Men are stronger, physically then women, do not have children hence can earn more money than women over a lifetime, do not suffer menstrual pains and pregnancy,and in general are unecumbered by hormonla changes that can affect mood, personality and physicality. Also on the flip side Men are not nurturing, cannot feed a child, rear a child physically or give birth, thus cannot physically build society.


Discrimination with minorities is another area, where religious societies in general and muslim specific falls short greatly. There are many controversial laws in many muslim countries, that are design to suppress freedom of speech and expression, this is making those societies more illiterate and ill-torrent. In past during the founders time, taxing people based on religion was law of land. Now a days one cannot even think about Faith tax ;-)

again your mixing issues to make a point. Islam and "islamic countries" should be separated. Completely. If we take Islam and its political dimensions then minorities on are not A) expected to assimilate or integrate b) expected to obey Islamic law c) serve the nation state e.g. in the army etc, d) are protected by the decree of the PROPHET OF iSLAM pbuh e) are allowed to progess in all fields no matter their background.

and coming to intolerance. Well lets look at non-religious societies, China, the soviet union, Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries. one only ahs to see the oppression of the British during the raj and in places like Kenya to understand the issue of minorities rights. Lets look at the mass holocausts during the 20th century. WW1 and WW2. or the destruction of the peoples of central asia by Stalin. What about minority rights with regards to the Uighurs. We could even go as far as the American constitution that called for the rights of all men to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Thats if you were white.
right up until the 70's signs saying "no dogs, blacks or irish" was common in the UK.

You talk about the faith tax, well actually its a protection tax not a faith tax. Thus a dhimmi is a contracted citizen just like me or you right now in the UK, US or even Pakistan. But the level of taxes were limited when compared to what we have now. It simply meant that you paid to avoid military service, to recieve justice, a place to trade and to live in peace end of. Can you imagine a minority group right now in europe being given that priveledge. (assuming concsription of national service that is?) can you imagine the British allowing separate courts for Muslims Jews or even Parsi's? the EDL would be burning masjids at a quicker rate than now


Slavery was another practice that was not legally forbidden in Islamic societies including founders era. Slave trade was common practice throughout the history of mankind. It has taken a back seat forcefully only in last few decades...

slavery is forbidden in Islam. It is the Sunnat of the prophet of Islam to free the slaves. Otherwise Bilal RA would have remained a slave. Just ebcause unscrupulous Muslims decided it was ok to enslave those outside the Dar-el-Islam doesnt make it right. But even in that unjust situation a slave became a sultan and founded a dynasty that alsted nearly 400 years! and that was 800 odd years before Obama came along. and one can argue that he's still a slave!!

Education in masses is another area where Faith based societies were weak. Religion was tool used by Feudal to control the masses for most part. Islamic societies were using the exact same practice. In modern society importance of education (not Faith but evidence based) has become lot more prominent. This is again a learnt behavior. Even religious societies wants to make their kids doctors and engineers. So far we are creating Rita culture doctors and engineers, but hopefully that will improve by the end of this century.

again thats just nonsense. Lets look at non religious societies then. Education is simply a means of indoctrination. There is relatively little free thinking permitted and the govt controls the curriculum. Now you can opt out of the curriculum if you have the means but in general the national curriculum is king. when you talk of "religious" societies im assuming you eman past and present Muslim ones. Now I dont need to tell you where to look for refences to the House of Wisdom, Al-azhar, the University of al-Karaouine (set up by a woman in 859), look them up.

You talk of the "evidence based approach". so in essence ar you saying that during the Dark ages , essentailly between the 5th and 15th centuries there was not a single scientific "evidence based" discovery or approach? Because in essence thats what your saying. You talk about "learnt" behaviour. learnt from what? you must a have a base to learn from. by the way what happened to for example emperor Titus who used to love "swimming with young boys" or perhaps caligula who loved his mother sister, animals and anything else he could get his hands on. They had aristotle and socrates, India, persia and other great societies around them for them to "learn" behaviour. Didnt really help them much did it?


Punishments is another area where modern society is more civic. Punishments in hollybooks are also too barbaric for modern society. Which value life lot more.

so injecting a murderer with a killer drug is more humane than forgiving him and rehabilitating him? Can you tell me how many people have been executed in Texas alone since the early 00's? also can you give me the crime rates for teh united states with regards to gun crime , rape and murder? So modern societies value life more than the past? really? capital punishment is capital punishment whether you inject human or chop their head off..



There is a lot of evidence that we are driving our ethics by experience and not by some divine text. Divine text is out dated as far as ethics is concerned..
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how? give examples and refernces otherwise its just a statement with no basis in reality.

regards
 
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God just got bored and decided to create human beings so that he can watch us and get entertained by us. Then when we die he judges us and decides whether we deserve a fun park called heaven or we deserve a torture chamber called hell. What kind of a sadistic God is he??

Post is meant for all religions barring Buddhism.
 
Any Ex Muslims here?

God just got bored and decided to create human beings so that he can watch us and get entertained by us. Then when we die he judges us and decides whether we deserve a fun park called heaven or we deserve a torture chamber called hell. What kind of a sadistic God is he??

Post is meant for all religions barring Buddhism.




On top of that we are going back to eternal life (billion of billions of years) like our god after spending 80 years or so in this universe... So he created toys for small period of time and then he is going to go back to his boring life that has no challenge?

A very cold heart (an eternal cold) being is needed to burn some one for billions of years, for sins of max 80 years... It's not clear what is the purpose of heaven and hell? - what we are going to do there? There is no real challenge, nothing to look forward to, it is going to be same monatomic life for billions of years. It's going to be only comfort or only pain. It's also not clear what is the purpose of this pain and suffering ? - there is no test for anybody who is watching the suffering, no lesson for anybody, since test period is over. Why make people suffer for billions of years?

We still wonder what next project he is working on since 14b years? - with intellect of his, must be something big. But when we look at holy books, which by the way is his best work, does not look like much intellect has dawn upon us, the stories are same old Alif Laila ones, primitive morals, less we talk about science better it is(it just gives heart burn to everybody), jealous from any one who challenges him...

The funny part is the reason for creation of cosmos (14b light year wide and as many year old), are bunch of nobles who did not live in it for more than 60-70 year. If universe was created 14 b years ago why Human and those Nobel prophets were brought in just last few thousands years? - why trillions of stars and planets were created? - why somebody will waste so much energy and resources, specially God who is suppose to be our role model?

Very compelling story ;-)


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On top of that we are going back to eternal life (billion of billions of years) like our god after spending 80 years or so in this universe... So he created toys for small period of time and then he is going to go back to his boring life that has no challenge?

A very cold heart (an eternal cold) being is needed to burn some one for billions of years, for sins of max 80 years... It's not clear what is the purpose of heaven and hell? - what we are going to do there? There is no real challenge, nothing to look forward to, it is going to be same monatomic life for billions of years. It's going to be only comfort or only pain. It's also not clear what is the purpose of this pain and suffering ? - there is no test for anybody who is watching the suffering, no lesson for anybody, since test period is over. Why make people suffer for billions of years?

We still wonder what next project he is working on since 14b years? - with intellect of his, must be something big. But when we look at holy books, which by the way is his best work, does not look like much intellect has dawn upon us, the stories are same old Alif Laila ones, primitive morals, less we talk about science better it is(it just gives heart burn to everybody), jealous from any one who challenges him...

The funny part is the reason for creation of cosmos (14b light year wide and as many year old), are bunch of nobles who did not live in it for more than 60-70 year. If universe was created 14 b years ago why Human and those Nobel prophets were brought in just last few thousands years? - why trillions of stars and planets were created? - why somebody will waste so much energy and resources, specially God who is suppose to be our role model?

Very compelling story ;-)


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Just to add to that, some people say the universe was created as a test for human beings

First of all, human beings will not interact with most of the universe at all. Even on earth we will not interact with most life form (some claim all life forms are created for man's use). Most of the earth itself is covered by seas where man will not venture at all

Secondly, man has been here for a few thousand years. Dinosaurs lived on earth for millions of years. Pretty sure man will not live even for a million. Yet earth was made for man's test supposedly.

Life span of so many other living things like trees, turtles, jelly fish are much more than human beings. But we are the ultimate creations. etc, etc
 
Ethics in modern society

based on what? chance? did the basis for ethics come from thin air? learned beahviour from what? what is the basis of ethics? where does it actually come from?

When human beings moved from being hunters to settlers, and food was no longer scarce, it was much more comfortable to settle in one place. There was a need to form a society. A society would mean that you will get more safety. A society will mean that people can concentrate on one skills instead of trying to do everything themselves. For example, one or two persons could make clothes for the whole society. Few people could grow crops. Few could tend to the domestic animals. Few would be on guard.

Now, in order for a society to survive, you cannot be fighting or killing others in your own society. So you cannot steal from your neighbor even though when we were wandering hunter, stealing would have been a common thing. You cannot covet your neighbors wife. You cannot kill another human being no matter how tempted you might be. So these basic rules were formed which transformed to ethics. Generations of teaching something is immoral and that you need others to survive and live will drive this home into your psyche. Others things like loyalty to your ruler/group, etc also developed at the same time




science doesnt see men as equal to women. Thats why women to ebcome equal have to become more like men. That in itself is inequality. If you look at it from a purely scientific view then Men are stronger, physically then women, do not have children hence can earn more money than women over a lifetime, do not suffer menstrual pains and pregnancy,and in general are unecumbered by hormonla changes that can affect mood, personality and physicality. Also on the flip side Men are not nurturing, cannot feed a child, rear a child physically or give birth, thus cannot physically build society.

But with changing times, most of these things are ceasing to become advantageous for men. Brute strength is of no advantage in today's society unless it is used to show off among teenagers. With the advent of computers and the internet, pregnancy and its aftermath cease to affect a woman's career and aspirations.

A woman's hormonal changes might actually help in the coming generations. Her more calm temper is what will lead human beings into the future, not a bunch of territorial men high on hormones fighting among themselves

So basically, changing rules with changing society. However some hangover of the old traditions, like women needing to be segregated from men or needing to cover themselves kill off a lot of this potential. When your time and energy is spent on irrelevant things like 'appearing modest', there is no way your brain can conceive of higher things



again your mixing issues to make a point. Islam and "islamic countries" should be separated. Completely. If we take Islam and its political dimensions then minorities on are not A) expected to assimilate or integrate b) expected to obey Islamic law c) serve the nation state e.g. in the army etc, d) are protected by the decree of the PROPHET OF iSLAM pbuh e) are allowed to progess in all fields no matter their background.


and coming to intolerance. Well lets look at non-religious societies, China, the soviet union, Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries. one only ahs to see the oppression of the British during the raj and in places like Kenya to understand the issue of minorities rights. Lets look at the mass holocausts during the 20th century. WW1 and WW2. or the destruction of the peoples of central asia by Stalin. What about minority rights with regards to the Uighurs. We could even go as far as the American constitution that called for the rights of all men to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Thats if you were white.
right up until the 70's signs saying "no dogs, blacks or irish" was common in the UK.

You talk about the faith tax, well actually its a protection tax not a faith tax. Thus a dhimmi is a contracted citizen just like me or you right now in the UK, US or even Pakistan. But the level of taxes were limited when compared to what we have now. It simply meant that you paid to avoid military service, to recieve justice, a place to trade and to live in peace end of. Can you imagine a minority group right now in europe being given that priveledge. (assuming concsription of national service that is?) can you imagine the British allowing separate courts for Muslims Jews or even Parsi's? the EDL would be burning masjids at a quicker rate than now


However, there will still be an issue of us against them. The non-muslims will still be seen as outsiders and others. Isn't this the very reason why Pakistan was created, because people felt like outsiders in a country dominated by another religion?

And you are right, the entire history of our human rights is appalling. But most countries have moved on from their and are trying to forget those legacies. So basically, when at one point, religious laws and rule might have been much more tolerant than other non-religious regimes, it is not true anymore.

When the entire world is shrinking, everyone is connected to everyone else, the need of the hour is to be all inclusive and give everyone a voice and freedom.





You talk of the "evidence based approach". so in essence ar you saying that during the Dark ages , essentailly between the 5th and 15th centuries there was not a single scientific "evidence based" discovery or approach? Because in essence thats what your saying. You talk about "learnt" behaviour. learnt from what? you must a have a base to learn from. by the way what happened to for example emperor Titus who used to love "swimming with young boys" or perhaps caligula who loved his mother sister, animals and anything else he could get his hands on. They had aristotle and socrates, India, persia and other great societies around them for them to "learn" behaviour. Didnt really help them much did it?

The thing is, all those countries have moved on. However, you still imagine a past golden age and aspire to go back to that. That has never worked in the history of humanity. Life is about looking forward and evolving. Those who keep on living in the past and dream of lost glories always get left behind.


so injecting a murderer with a killer drug is more humane than forgiving him and rehabilitating him? Can you tell me how many people have been executed in Texas alone since the early 00's? also can you give me the crime rates for teh united states with regards to gun crime , rape and murder? So modern societies value life more than the past? really? capital punishment is capital punishment whether you inject human or chop their head off..

Injecting is definitely better than the electric chair. Isn't this the whole basis of the argument that halal way of killing animals is better because it is painless?

Again, most societies are slowly evolving into more forgiving ones. Capital punishment is being banned in more and more countries/states. But the whole point is, in order to do this, we have to first accept these things. There are many people who have still not got the message. It is not a co-incidence that Texas is one of the most religious states in the US
 
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Just to add to that, some people say the universe was created as a test for human beings

First of all, human beings will not interact with most of the universe at all. Even on earth we will not interact with most life form (some claim all life forms are created for man's use). Most of the earth itself is covered by seas where man will not venture at all

Secondly, man has been here for a few thousand years. Dinosaurs lived on earth for millions of years. Pretty sure man will not live even for a million. Yet earth was made for man's test supposedly.

Life span of so many other living things like trees, turtles, jelly fish are much more than human beings. But we are the ultimate creations. etc, etc

Role of Chance or Accident in our evolution:

Average life of Mammal spices is around 3M years. Dinosaurs rule the world for 150M years. Around 65M years they extinct. The fossil record shows not a gradual but a sudden extinct that points to a catastrophic like asteroid hitting the earth. Come to think of it if that event had not happen they might still be wandering around and chance of us being evolved may not have being possible.

We evolve from rats like Mammals at that time, which went underground and able to survive the extreme conditions of the earth surface, but Dinosaurs did not had that luxury, their size and needs were bigger, could not pass through that event. Spices need a critical mass of population to survive, below that number its not possible to survive.

There are lot of other important events happen in past that has helped our evolution. Like when the linkage between Pacific and Atlantic ocean broken more than 5M years ago (near Panama), that changed the ocean cycle.

Similarly the climate change in Savanna Africa wiped out the forest, forced our ancestors to start walking on two legs (the main reason for walking on two verses four is energy consumption efficiency, more than 2:1 ratio), since forrest was lost, we have to walk and run for the food, that's why our hip and other bone structures differ from Apes/Monkeys. We had to work hard for our food. That also led to the evolution of bigger brain. It took around 3-4M years of evolution on around 20 spices to change from a common ancestors of Apes/Monkey to us.

The other important role is played by the presence of Jupiter, Jupiter's massive gravity acts as a giant shield. Protects us from outer Solar System hazards objects like Asteroids. Without Jupiter we would have being hit so frequently by those objects that would not have given chance for intelligent life to evolve.

We still don't know how the molecule of life (Genes and DNA) was formed using amino acid and how that evolve to a uni cellular organism. That is still the biggest unsolved mystery. But Science is the only viable tool we have to take a shot at that answer. As Carl Sagan said, Biology is more like history than physic. You have to know the past to understand the present. We only understand one kind of life (a carbon base). In universe their may be other forms possible, we cannot imagine how they would be until we met them!!
 
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If God always existed, why can't the universe have always existed?

if the universe is supposed to be infinite then it must have an infinite number of past historical events to prove it is infinite.

the famous German mathematician David Hilbert said,

“The infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exists in nature nor provides a legitimate basis for rational thought…the role that remains for the infinite to play is solely that of an idea.”
 
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So basically, changing rules with changing society. However some hangover of the old traditions, like women needing to be segregated from men or needing to cover themselves kill off a lot of this potential. When your time and energy is spent on irrelevant things like 'appearing modest', there is no way your brain can conceive of higher things

that is entirely your opinion backed up by zero facts. Your whole argument is simply your perception of things and is simply not based on the rigours of human nature. But lets take a snippet of your assertion, the changing society. A changing society in essence means a changing set of morals and ethics. So one minute one thing is ok , the next minute another thing is ok.
So my example of Roman society is quite interesting. In roman society it was ok to have sex with animals and your mother if you felt like it. But yasir asserts that "learned beahviour" means we have moved on and this sort of stuff doesnt happen anymore. We are more enlightened and thus more civilised, except if your in denmark where you can go to a brothel and have sex with animals.Oh its legal by the way.


so have we really learnt anything? how about killing a chld with a drone missile because he looked like an enemy? or perhaps ripping open the womb of a pregnant woman and then burning her body because she was the member of a diffferent religious group, or what about eating a man alive because his particular ethnic religious group killed your child. Have we learnt anything here?

What if you have a soceity that has seen nothing but war for 40 years, what do you thing people will learn living in such a society? are you so sure that we have moved on? 80% of the worlds population live on a dollar a day (75 if you read other stats) but the point is 25% of the worlds population consumes approx 80% of the worlds resources. Learned behaviour? without a set of moral standards that can transcend your societal conditions, your environment, your perceptions and even the majority view at times, a society will simply lurch from one set of values to another, without purpose and when pressure hits it it will revert to its basest instincts.

The thing is, all those countries have moved on. However, you still imagine a past golden age and aspire to go back to that. That has never worked in the history of humanity. Life is about looking forward and evolving. Those who keep on living in the past and dream of lost glories always get left behind.

again your putting words and thoughts in my mind. but thats because your inatley prejudiced and quite anti Muslim in your discourse. But for the sake of this debate I'll overlook that. If society were to simply just look ahead , we would not be where we are today. one must look to the past to elarn and observe and undertsand to move forward. blindly moving forward lead to irresponsibility and injustice. For example the rush to modernise without understanding the needs of those that youtrample on the way up. Farmers suicides in developing countries is a common such example. If we did not look to the past we wouldnt have history.

Injecting is definitely better than the electric chair. Isn't this the whole basis of the argument that halal way of killing animals is better because it is painless?

how do you know? in reality no one can know. i find both abhorrant. (injecting and electric chair)

Again, most societies are slowly evolving into more forgiving ones. Capital punishment is being banned in more and more countries/states. But the whole point is, in order to do this, we have to first accept these things. There are many people who have still not got the message. It is not a co-incidence that Texas is one of the most religious states in the US


I would tend to agree with you but even if Texas is a religious state it is still beholden to the constitution of the Untied states of america. And is not the only state that executes. Islam focuses on forgiveness and rehabilitation. Captial punishment is reserved for the most heinous of crimes and is hardly ever used.
 
Role of Chance or Accident in our evolution:

Average life of Mammal spices is around 3M years. Dinosaurs rule the world for 150M years. Around 65M years they extinct. The fossil record shows not a gradual but a sudden extinct that points to a catastrophic like asteroid hitting the earth. Come to think of it if that event had not happen they might still be wandering around and chance of us being evolved may not have being possible.

We evolve from rats like Mammals at that time, which went underground and able to survive the extreme conditions of the earth surface, but Dinosaurs did not had that luxury, their size and needs were bigger, could not pass through that event. Spices need a critical mass of population to survive, below that number its not possible to survive.

There are lot of other important events happen in past that has helped our evolution. Like when the linkage between Pacific and Atlantic ocean broken more than 5M years ago (near Panama), that changed the ocean cycle.

Similarly the climate change in Savanna Africa wiped out the forest, forced our ancestors to start walking on two legs (the main reason for walking on two verses four is energy consumption efficiency, more than 2:1 ratio), since forrest was lost, we have to walk and run for the food, that's why our hip and other bone structures differ from Apes/Monkeys. We had to work hard for our food. That also led to the evolution of bigger brain. It took around 3-4M years of evolution on around 20 spices to change from a common ancestors of Apes/Monkey to us.

The other important role is played by the presence of Jupiter, Jupiter's massive gravity acts as a giant shield. Protects us from outer Solar System hazards objects like Asteroids. Without Jupiter we would have being hit so frequently by those objects that would not have given chance for intelligent life to evolve.

We still don't know how the molecule of life (Genes and DNA) was formed using amino acid and how that evolve to a uni cellular organism. That is still the biggest unsolved mystery. But Science is the only viable tool we have to take a shot at that answer. As Carl Sagan said, Biology is more like history than physic. You have to know the past to understand the present. We only understand one kind of life (a carbon base). In universe their may be other forms possible, we cannot imagine how they would be until we met them!!

science of gaps then.
 
Separation of Church and state model has helped create a free thinking society. That was more productive then the status quo.

Even if Science and Atheism completely dominate the theist, this does not mean all our social or political problems will go away. The whole purpose of this openness and free thinking culture is to increase the productivity, efficiency, intellect of society. So that society can achieve self sustain development. It can solve their problems by themselves.

So far we don't have lot of data on the Software evolution. 4B years of Hardware evolution on earth revolves on the survival of the fittest. Keep in mind, its not the strongest, but the one who fit the environment best survives. We don't know how the software evolution is going to happen. This principle still holds in Software realm as well, the one who fits the environment best survives. But we don't have much data.

The political struggles and competition among ourselves will always be there since we are fighting for the same resources. In future there could be a different category of grouping (may not be based on religion, race, geography), if science and free thinking becomes the only dominating culture... Because of this competition we have our weak moments, insecurities too, that's why people turn to religion or superstitious... Its like drugs or even sleep, you have take a breather before starting again :-(

This is understandable as a society move toward more "liberal/non discriminatory one" and system become more efficient+rational and less "luck" based(more human control)[ e.g. A person's success not being decided by where he born(poverty etc) because of effective welfare system for viable no of population maintained using population control techniques], an urge to call for "divine intervention" in daily matters will decrease.
 
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if the universe is supposed to be infinite then it must have an infinite number of past historical events to prove it is infinite.

the famous German mathematician David Hilbert said,

“The infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exists in nature nor provides a legitimate basis for rational thought…the role that remains for the infinite to play is solely that of an idea.”


The idea of history steeped in the concept of time. Time only began with the big bang. So the universe doesn't have to have existed for infinity if it is beyond the realm of time.
 
The idea of history steeped in the concept of time. Time only began with the big bang. So the universe doesn't have to have existed for infinity if it is beyond the realm of time.

so the universe gave birth to itself then?
 
science of gaps then.

Scientific process is different from religion, it does not claim to know everything. Where ever evidence takes us, we go there, keep on refining the data and evidence generation over generation. Some time we found evolutionary extension to the existing knowledge some time revolutionary. There are no prophets in Science, best of the brains had made mistakes.

I would have us filling the gaps in our understanding of reality and enhance scientific knowledge rather than leaning to empty ideology of religion. Intellectually religion and faith based ideologies cannot compete with Science, other wise most of the inventions and technologies would have come from churches, mosques, Mandirs etc. Nothing good come out of these institutions !!
 
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Hilarious how religious people are scoffing at the idea of Universe always being there and how they demand evidence for everything yet religion offers NO evidence of being true and they say God has always existed.

Either don't try to justify religion by Science or via the same reasons used by Science and if you do then use the same methods to prove the existence of religion.
 
Scientific process is different from religion, it does not claim to know everything. Where ever evidence takes us, we go there, keep on refining the data and evidence generation over generation. Some time we found evolutionary extension to the existing knowledge some time revolutionary. There are no prophets in Science, best of the brains had made mistakes.

I would have us filling the gaps in our understanding of reality and enhance scientific knowledge rather than leaning to empty ideology of religion. Intellectually religion and faith based ideologies cannot compete with Science, other wise most of the inventions and technologies would have come from churches, mosques, Mandirs etc. Nothing good come out of these institutions !!

your again making these broad sweeping generalisations that arent really based on facts. I thought you believed in science?

also I have another question, if the Universe always existed but spacetime was created afterwards, by this very same Universe, is that not an absurd notion? is it not akin to a mother giving birth to her self? and is it also not a paradox, that itself goes against science?

and if you do not know what was there before the universe created itself, are you not simply basing this on an irrational belief in blind faith? which sounds a bit like some religions? yes?

The fact is "you dont know" , your putting your "faith" in science that science will show us the way, "do not worry just keep the faith". Kind of sounds like what the church used to say in the dark ages? and if anyone objects they become "anti science and irrational" or "heretics" as the church used to call them.

So are you not merely replacing a belief with another belief?



Hilarious how religious people are scoffing at the idea of Universe always being there and how they demand evidence for everything yet religion offers NO evidence of being true and they say God has always existed.

Either don't try to justify religion by Science or via the same reasons used by Science and if you do then use the same methods to prove the existence of religion.

on the contrary, the Quraan actually challenges human beings in this regard and the nature of the revelation and its history gives us plenty of answers with regards to the nature of God.
 
The fact is "you dont know" , your putting your "faith" in science that science will show us the way, "do not worry just keep the faith". Kind of sounds like what the church used to say in the dark ages? and if anyone objects they become "anti science and irrational" or "heretics" as the church used to call them.

Is there a problem in putting faith in Science? Why is it worse than putting faith in a religion? At least, science doesn't have a fixed scripture which can never be wrong. It is flexible and adjusts its principles if new evidences come.

And no one was ever killed due to being "anti-science", neither does "pure" science interfere with laws of a society.

You have to get this thing in your mind that no atheist has a problem with a theist (unless he is planning on committing a civil crime) but the inverse is not true. Some theists have a problem with people having different views - case in point murder of abortion doctors in the US and Shias, Christians in Pakistan in the "name of religion".
 
on the contrary, the Quraan actually challenges human beings in this regard and the nature of the revelation and its history gives us plenty of answers with regards to the nature of God.

Yasir bhai is trying to say that "You shouldn't try to just your religion by using the religion of Atheists aka Science (which in your opinion in wrong)". How would you feel if tomorrow I declare myself a prophet using vague interpretations from the Quran and Hadith?
 
so the universe gave birth to itself then?

GK, your question is operationally meaningless because there was no time for the Universe to give birth to itself in. Time began at the same instant as expansion began.

There used to be an Oscillating Universe Hypothesis of a Big Bang then a Big Crunch setting up the next Big Bang, but this has fallen out of favour with the astrophysicists. The Cosmological Constant is too strong and gravity is too weak, so it looks like the the Universe will eventually die in a Big Chill where even individual photons are a galaxy-span apart. In effect nothing ever happens any more after that.
 
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Is there a problem in putting faith in Science? Why is it worse than putting faith in a religion?

The scientific person does not put faith in science. S/he is not afraid to say "I don't know" - that is not a position of faith.

The faithful person claims to know, due to the untestable alleged supernatural authority of some book or other.
 
The scientific person does not put faith in science. S/he is not afraid to say "I don't know" - that is not a position of faith.

The faithful person claims to know, due to the untestable alleged supernatural authority of some book or other.

the difference is the Quraan is testable..
 
The scientific person does not put faith in science. S/he is not afraid to say "I don't know" - that is not a position of faith.

But the theories are backed up evidence, so until disproved it's faith?
 
GK, your question is operationally meaningless because there was no time for the Universe to give birth to itself in. Time began at the same instant as expansion began.

There used to be an Oscillating Universe Hypothesis of a Big Bang then a Big Crunch setting up the next Big Bang, but this has fallen out of favour with the astrophysicists. The Cosmological Constant is too strong and gravity is too weak, so it looks like the the Universe will eventually die in a Big Chill where even individual photons are a galaxy-span apart. In effect nothing ever happens any more after that.

so in essence your saying the Universe just turned up one day. Out of the blue. and didnt come into existence, it just expanded and spacetime was created.

dont you think thats a little absurd. because its very existence implies that at one point it didnt exist so had to a) appear out of nowhere or come from nothing b) create itself c)be created by something that was in itself created d)created by an uncaused entity.

because some of the chaps above are saying it always existed and didnt exist at the same time (paradox yes?) some are saying we dont know, and now your saying it all happened at the same time?

so if you can believe the above why is it a stretch to say an uncreated creator created the Universe?

coming onto the issue of "faith" the I dont know stuff from above, well isnt that what "religious" people are accused of by the anti-theists?

from the muslim perspective unlike other faiths we dont have that problem. Because the "i dont know" bit is the Quraan itself.

All I'm saying is that science doesnt necessarily have all the answers(as regards to the i dont know bit) and that the Deen in this case Islam has a place in life and cannot be ignored.

by the way im no scientist, just an analyst hence why ive tried to make sense of this discussion in that way.
 
The scientific person does not put faith in science. S/he is not afraid to say "I don't know" - that is not a position of faith.

The faithful person claims to know, due to the untestable alleged supernatural authority of some book or other.

I am an atheist mate (not a militant one though) and I know that there is some faith involved just like for anything in this world. It is known as "induction" for e.g. the belief that the laws of physics will remain the same tomorrow. It may look like the absolute truth to you but in my nihilistic view there is nothing like that ever. The only thing close to an absolute truth is "solopsism".

Saying that Science seems like the best source of knowledge that we have, the result of which can be seen everywhere in the modern world. It is just a matter of choice...
 
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Yasir bhai is trying to say that "You shouldn't try to just your religion by using the religion of Atheists aka Science (which in your opinion in wrong)". How would you feel if tomorrow I declare myself a prophet using vague interpretations from the Quran and Hadith?

Are you agreeing with me that their staunch support of the atheist position is akin to a religious fanatic who believes in blind faith? so you agree with me then? and according to you and others science isnt a religion and is simply a method of decution to undertsand the world around you. So why cant rationality and akul be used to prove something about Islam or anything else? afterall if it cant stand up to the rigours of decuction, logical reasoning etc it cant really be from God can it? but on the flip side what if it does stand up to all of that? by the way its just a debate..

also I didnt say anything about anyones faith, I merely defended the theist position and asked some questions which illicited the aforementioned responses. it was yasir who made some very very generalised statements about religion and religious people.
 
There is no evidence that it is. You are just saying it based on faith

lol theres more evidence of that then the fact that the universe wasnt created by a creator as referenced above with the "we dont know"..that my friend is blind faith. Beleive in something when your not really sure.
 
define what you mean by non ambiguous..do you mean from a source other than a bias one?

No non-ambiguous means something which is interpreted by everyone in the same way. The miracle has to be defined in that way for it to be non-ambiguous.
 
No non-ambiguous means something which is interpreted by everyone in the same way. The miracle has to be defined in that way for it to be non-ambiguous.

example? sorry im just trying to understand then i can answer better..(bhudaay hain hum lol)
 
Are you agreeing with me that their staunch support of the atheist position is akin to a religious fanatic who believes in blind faith? so you agree with me then? and according to you and others science isnt a religion and is simply a method of decution to undertsand the world around you. So why cant rationality and akul be used to prove something about Islam or anything else? afterall if it cant stand up to the rigours of decuction, logical reasoning etc it cant really be from God can it? but on the flip side what if it does stand up to all of that? by the way its just a debate...

On one hand you think Science for understanding the universe is a bad idea and on the other you are trying to use Science itself to prove your own understanding of the universe.

Kya ye khula tazad naheen?
 
example? sorry im just trying to understand then i can answer better..(bhudaay hain hum lol)

You tell me the miracle. May be then I can tell you if it is ambiguous or not.

A non-ambiguous miracle would be something breaking the laws of the universe without any tricks (as used by magicians). For e.g. something like anti-gravity would be miraculous. It is something which could be observed and verified by everyone...
 
lol theres more evidence of that then the fact that the universe wasnt created by a creator as referenced above with the "we dont know"..that my friend is blind faith. Beleive in something when your not really sure.
I think i will shut up. Your last statement says it all.
 
so in essence your saying the Universe just turned up one day. Out of the blue. and didnt come into existence, it just expanded and spacetime was created.
dont you think thats a little absurd. because its very existence implies that at one point it didnt exist so had to a) appear out of nowhere or come from nothing b) create itself c)be created by something that was in itself created d)created by an uncaused entity.

because some of the chaps above are saying it always existed and didnt exist at the same time (paradox yes?) some are saying we dont know, and now your saying it all happened at the same time?

so if you can believe the above why is it a stretch to say an uncreated creator created the Universe?

coming onto the issue of "faith" the I dont know stuff from above, well isnt that what "religious" people are accused of by the anti-theists?

from the muslim perspective unlike other faiths we dont have that problem. Because the "i dont know" bit is the Quraan itself.

All I'm saying is that science doesnt necessarily have all the answers(as regards to the i dont know bit) and that the Deen in this case Islam has a place in life and cannot be ignored.

by the way im no scientist, just an analyst hence why ive tried to make sense of this discussion in that way.


What we know about Cosmos

Briefly what we know about Cosmos:

  1. Universe was created from a Big Bang. The evidence of Big Bang theory is Cosmic Micro Wave back ground. The foot print of micro wave back ground matches the predicted foot print by Big Bang theory.
  2. Universe contains around 4% of traditional matter and energy. By traditional matter, we mean matter which we understand made of particles (quarks, electrons, photons etc) of matter or energy.
  3. Universe also contain 26% of dark matter. The only way we detect dark matter is the gravitational pull of objects (stars, planets, moons etc) in the galaxy. Majority of the matter is dark matter in galaxies.
  4. Around 70% of the matter/energy in the universe is dark energy. Dark energy is the reason galaxies are pulling apart from each other at exponential rate. That is why Big Chill theory predicts that Universe will die a cold death.
  5. All the traditional matter in the universe which includes all planets, stars, galaxies, organic living beings was create at the time of Big Bang. There is no new traditional matter created any where in the Universe.

What we don't know about Cosmos

  1. What happen before big bang? There are couple of theories about it like multi-verse, which predicts that there are many universes like ours, they keep on getting created and destroyed. Those universes may have completely different fundamental laws and particles. The other theory is that Universe might be created by a dying 4D star, since event horizon of a black hole can be one dimension less. We might be living in a bubble of a 4D black hole. There is no evidence of any of these theories.
  2. What cause the big bang? - We don't know what cause the big bang. Since all the traditional matter was either formed at the time of big bang or transferred from what ever caused the big bang. There is a possibility the matter and energy existed before Big Bang.
  3. How matter is created? We don't know the source of creation or mechanism of how matter and energy was created in the first place. We have no way of creating a single atom or quark without using any energy or matter.
  4. We don't understand the nature of dark matter or dark energy. What they made of? How it is formed? etc - Essentially we understand only 4% of the Universe, rest is still mystery to us.
  5. Laws of Physics at singularities: We don't have good grasp about the laws of physics at the singularities like black holes, super Nova and even Big Bang. The more we understand them the better we can comprehend the Cosmos. Here we need a revolutionary leap in knowledge as what Quantum Physic did to Newtonian Physics.


There is no point of keep going round and round on unsolved mysteries. Unless you have scientific theories that can explain the unsolved mysteries. Even if theories are religion base, explain them, don't give me reference of verses that cannot explain the mystery. I am interesting in how things happen? - I care less about where it is written or we should believe since Science does not know. Things have to be explained, if religion cannot explain, it is of no use to us. Religious theories really fail on predicting, that's one of the important test of a theory, it should be able to predict a measurable outcome.


Why invest in Science when we don't know everything?

Science feed's on our curiosity to know. We build upon knowledge of others and keep on evolving, following the evidence where ever it takes us and doubt everything. This method has serve us better than any other method of dealing with unknown and mysteries.

Science like religion is a tool to help us deal with unknown. Both try to help us cope with the unexplained mysteries. One use evidence, reasoning to de-mystify the unknown where as other uses Fear, Faith and super natural to explain the unknown. Faith destroys the human intellect, we cannot build intellect without doubting and questioning. Religion fears doubt, it clams the doubt with fear, where as Science build upon doubt and pushes us to fulfill our curiosity by keeping working on it rather than punt it for ever.

Remember Quantum mechanics was discovered/created to explain the sub atomic physics. That open us up to a whole new world of science and technology. Lot of technological development of last century is because of discoveries of Quantum Physics and deeper understanding of EMWs. We would not have seen these fruits if people were not after fundamental Physics.

Same is true for Biology, by controlling diseases we have disrupted the natural cycle of birth/death. Its not in the hand of God or some external force. Otherwise for last 5000 years the population was so small, in last century it sky rocketed. Infant mortality is all time low, not because of prayers but because of getting help for what we learned through science. If God is controlling birth/death, why he did that in last 50 or so years? - What reason for such high number of Human? - Are we lot more moral now? - BTW: West (which are God less people more than east) has control infant mortality using science lot more than us or people before, even Prophets did not had that kind of power. The more we pounder, it has nothing to do with religion or God. We did it by controlling diseases. How we did that, well using scientific methods not by praying more or submission to God...

Today the problem we face Climate change, energy crisis etc; science is only way to solve those problems. Religion is no help in this regards either. Even the religious people or societies look to Science for help. Their prayers have little to no effect on their lively hood.

It will be better for you to learn about science with openness and without biases. I hope you are letting your children get the science education. It is very important for them to think out of curiosity and not out of fear. My biggest gripe about Pakistani Society is that Freedom of expression, which is oxygen for Science and intellectuals, is not there at all.
 
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Role of Chance or Accident in our evolution:

Average life of Mammal spices is around 3M years. Dinosaurs rule the world for 150M years. Around 65M years they extinct. The fossil record shows not a gradual but a sudden extinct that points to a catastrophic like asteroid hitting the earth. Come to think of it if that event had not happen they might still be wandering around and chance of us being evolved may not have being possible.

We evolve from rats like Mammals at that time, which went underground and able to survive the extreme conditions of the earth surface, but Dinosaurs did not had that luxury, their size and needs were bigger, could not pass through that event. Spices need a critical mass of population to survive, below that number its not possible to survive.

There are lot of other important events happen in past that has helped our evolution. Like when the linkage between Pacific and Atlantic ocean broken more than 5M years ago (near Panama), that changed the ocean cycle.

Similarly the climate change in Savanna Africa wiped out the forest, forced our ancestors to start walking on two legs (the main reason for walking on two verses four is energy consumption efficiency, more than 2:1 ratio), since forrest was lost, we have to walk and run for the food, that's why our hip and other bone structures differ from Apes/Monkeys. We had to work hard for our food. That also led to the evolution of bigger brain. It took around 3-4M years of evolution on around 20 spices to change from a common ancestors of Apes/Monkey to us.

The other important role is played by the presence of Jupiter, Jupiter's massive gravity acts as a giant shield. Protects us from outer Solar System hazards objects like Asteroids. Without Jupiter we would have being hit so frequently by those objects that would not have given chance for intelligent life to evolve.

We still don't know how the molecule of life (Genes and DNA) was formed using amino acid and how that evolve to a uni cellular organism. That is still the biggest unsolved mystery. But Science is the only viable tool we have to take a shot at that answer. As Carl Sagan said, Biology is more like history than physic. You have to know the past to understand the present. We only understand one kind of life (a carbon base). In universe their may be other forms possible, we cannot imagine how they would be until we met them!!

I have never seen such a concentrate of pseudo-science and misunderstood evolutionary concepts. Most of these things are either out of tin air or misremembered ideas that you heard a long time ago.
 
I have never seen such a concentrate of pseudo-science and misunderstood evolutionary concepts. Most of these things are either out of tin air or misremembered ideas that you heard a long time ago.

Care to explain what is out of thin air or mis understood?
 
On one hand you think Science for understanding the universe is a bad idea and on the other you are trying to use Science itself to prove your own understanding of the universe.

Kya ye khula tazad naheen?

I didnt say its a bad idea to sue science to understand the universe. What i'm saying is science is not God. It is a methodology to explain the wonders of the universe but in itself isnt the answer. Simply because it will never have all the answers due to the limited knowledge of the human being. You will always hit the wall, the unknown, the unseen. Thats where the Deen comes in. Now you dont have to believe it but it does explain the unseen a hell of a lot better than science does. And they can both be complimentary not confrontational.
 
You tell me the miracle. May be then I can tell you if it is ambiguous or not.

A non-ambiguous miracle would be something breaking the laws of the universe without any tricks (as used by magicians). For e.g. something like anti-gravity would be miraculous. It is something which could be observed and verified by everyone...

oh excellent I understand now. So essentially if I sudeenly started to fly and broke the rules that would eb a miracle yes?

What if I tell you the Quraan by its nature does it. It is a linguistic miracle. and breaks all the rules of language (arabic in this case) to produce a miracle, verified by experts.
 
What we know about Cosmos

Briefly what we know about Cosmos:

  1. Universe was created from a Big Bang. The evidence of Big Bang theory is Cosmic Micro Wave back ground. The foot print of micro wave back ground matches the predicted foot print by Big Bang theory.

    Good so you agree there was an existance event. It had to have a beginning to exist yes?

  2. Universe contains around 4% of traditional matter and energy. By traditional matter, we mean matter which we understand made of particles (quarks, electrons, photons etc) of matter or energy.

    Irrelevant to my argument. im not denying any of the above.
  3. Universe also contain 26% of dark matter. The only way we detect dark matter is the gravitational pull of objects (stars, planets, moons etc) in the galaxy. Majority of the matter is dark matter in galaxies.

    Again see above

  4. Around 70% of the matter/energy in the universe is dark energy. Dark energy is the reason galaxies are pulling apart from each other at exponential rate. That is why Big Chill theory predicts that Universe will die a cold death.

    again it simply reinforces the argument that the universe is not infinite as it has a beginning and end. Hence anything that is finite must have a creator.
  5. All the traditional matter in the universe which includes all planets, stars, galaxies, organic living beings was create at the time of Big Bang. There is no new traditional matter created any where in the Universe.

Again reinforces the idea that there must have been something before the big bang as only nothing comes from nothing. Simple law of the Universe.


What we don't know about Cosmos

  1. What happen before big bang? There are couple of theories about it like multi-verse, which predicts that there are many universes like ours, they keep on getting created and destroyed. Those universes may have completely different fundamental laws and particles. The other theory is that Universe might be created by a dying 4D star, since event horizon of a black hole can be one dimension less. We might be living in a bubble of a 4D black hole. There is no evidence of any of these theories.

    Your talking about infinite past events but there is no proof. The same rules of nothing from nothing apply to the multiverses.

  2. What cause the big bang? - We don't know what cause the big bang. Since all the traditional matter was either formed at the time of big bang or transferred from what ever caused the big bang. There is a possibility the matter and energy existed before Big Bang.

    and where did that matter and energy come from since matter cannot exist in nothing. There has to be something. Unless your saying the Universe just popped up out of teh blue which is irrational and highly unscientific.

  3. How matter is created? We don't know the source of creation or mechanism of how matter and energy was created in the first place. We have no way of creating a single atom or quark without using any energy or matter.

    exactly my point. you cannot create something from nothing. Just as the Quraan challenges you. So thanks for verifying the Quraanic discourse on that one.
  4. We don't understand the nature of dark matter or dark energy. What they made of? How it is formed? etc - Essentially we understand only 4% of the Universe, rest is still mystery to us.

    exactly, your hoping science has the answer, keeping the faith in it when you barely understand 4%.

  5. Laws of Physics at singularities: We don't have good grasp about the laws of physics at the singularities like black holes, super Nova and even Big Bang. The more we understand them the better we can comprehend the Cosmos. Here we need a revolutionary leap in knowledge as what Quantum Physic did to Newtonian Physics.

the problem of something from nothing will still remain, no matter the leap. unless you transcend the laws of physics. which no being in the temporal universe can do.


There is no point of keep going round and round on unsolved mysteries.

but I thought science was there to help humans understand and make sense of unsolved mysteries like dark matter, the creation of the universe , the big bang. arent you contradicting yoruself? you seem to be stuck a lttle bit.

Unless you have scientific theories that can explain the unsolved mysteries.

ohh so unsolved mysteries can only be solved by science, all else is garbage. Then explain how something can come from nothing? and answer the 4 logical questions I posed to you in a previous post above.

Even if theories are religion base, explain them, don't give me reference of verses that cannot explain the mystery.

ok you have four optons then a) the universe appeared out of nowhere or came from nothing b) created itself c)be created by something that was in itself created d)created by an uncaused entity.

lets take a) you cant create something out of nothing as you yourself stated above, b) its a paradox so absurd. c) problem of infinite regress d) most logical explanation your left with. you can call the uncaused entity whatever you want but logically your left with (d)


I am interesting in how things happen? - I care less about where it is written or we should believe since Science does not know.

then why have you put your faith in science that in your words "does not know"? if science does not know either then shouldnt you be looking for another explanation going by what you've said above and in this post? are you just simply contradicting yourself in every sentence now?

Things have to be explained, if religion cannot explain, it is of no use to us. Religious theories really fail on predicting, that's one of the important test of a theory, it should be able to predict a measurable outcome.

what if science also cannot explain? then as a scientist are you not also falling into the religious trap of blind faith?




Why invest in Science when we don't know everything?

Science feed's on our curiosity to know. We build upon knowledge of others and keep on evolving, following the evidence where ever it takes us and doubt everything. This method has serve us better than any other method of dealing with unknown and mysteries.

yet cannot explain how you can have something from nothing. And at this rate never will be able to.


Science like religion is a tool to help us deal with unknown. Both try to help us cope with the unexplained mysteries. One use evidence, reasoning to de-mystify the unknown where as other uses Fear, Faith and super natural to explain the unknown. Faith destroys the human intellect, we cannot build intellect without doubting and questioning. Religion fears doubt, it clams the doubt with fear, where as Science build upon doubt and pushes us to fulfill our curiosity by keeping working on it rather than punt it for ever.

a complete utter generalisation again , without proof thus contradicitng your own methodology. The Quraan asks us to look around and use our akul and reason. to rationally understand the working of the Unievrse. Also to you have arrived at a conclusion without following your own method. Again a contradiction.


Remember Quantum mechanics was discovered/created to explain the sub atomic physics. That open us up to a whole new world of science and technology. Lot of technological development of last century is because of discoveries of Quantum Physics and deeper understanding of EMWs. We would not have seen these fruits if people were not after fundamental Physics.

and what was the driving need for this? simple, we want to know. not contrary to the Islamic positon as some of teh very basic work that eevntually lead to the discoveries we take for granted was done by Muslims.


Same is true for Biology, by controlling diseases we have disrupted the natural cycle of birth/death.

so do people not die anymore? All human beings can do is delay the inevitable, again not contrary to the Islamic positon that every soul will taste death. No matter what you do.


Its not in the hand of God or some external force. Otherwise for last 5000 years the population was so small, in last century it sky rocketed.

Then expalin to me why you still die? if its not in the hands of God anymore why cant you stop people from dieing? hell you cant even stop people from wanting to go to sleep.

Infant mortality is all time low,

where? in the west? the rest of the world it is probably higher. do you ahve figures or are you again making statements without backing them up with references? not very scientifi are we today?

not because of prayers but because of getting help for what we learned through science. If God is controlling birth/death, why he did that in last 50 or so years? - What reason for such high number of Human? - Are we lot more moral now? -

again are you saying we arent dieing anymore. Because for this conclusion to really work we would have to have become immortal.


BTW: West (which are God less people more than east) has control infant mortality using science lot more than us or people before, even Prophets did not had that kind of power. The more we pounder, it has nothing to do with religion or God. We did it by controlling diseases. How we did that, well using scientific methods not by praying more or submission to God...

again not contrary to the islamic position especially since inoculation was invented in theottoman empire of the Muslims.

Today the problem we face Climate change, energy crisis etc; science is only way to solve those problems. Religion is no help in this regards either. Even the religious people or societies look to Science for help. Their prayers have little to no effect on their lively hood.

how can you be sure they dont help? maybe the discoveries that are made by humans are the result of a good number of prayers? again you cant not know that. Allah swt works through rational means too.

It will be better for you to learn about science with openness and without biases.

it would also be good for you to learn about Islam, the Quraan, and the prophet PBUH without biases too. I have not been bias but you totally generalised and at times mocked theist belief without humility. Maybe you can learn a bit from religion.

I hope you are letting your children get the science education. It is very important for them to think out of curiosity and not out of fear. My biggest gripe about Pakistani Society is that Freedom of expression, which is oxygen for Science and intellectuals, is not there at all.

Pakistani society is the product of secular law and other foibles. and I dont think you ened to worry about my children since their not really your problem, I suggest you learn a little bit of humility and leave the arrogance at the door.

to conclude I think you should study Islam and the Quraan at bit more closely. It will a) teach you some humility b) allow you to free yourself of your desires and biases c) help you understand the universe and compliment your science knowledge.

regards
 
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I didnt say its a bad idea to sue science to understand the universe. What i'm saying is science is not God. It is a methodology to explain the wonders of the universe but in itself isnt the answer. Simply because it will never have all the answers due to the limited knowledge of the human being. You will always hit the wall, the unknown, the unseen. Thats where the Deen comes in. Now you dont have to believe it but it does explain the unseen a hell of a lot better than science does. And they can both be complimentary not confrontational.

So do you belief in evolution? Because thinking otherwise (creationism) would imply you don't even accept the basis of science which is cause and effect.

And yes that is correct neither Science nor religion can provide a definite answer. It is a choice made by the individual himself. However, the statement that "Islam is the best religion" or "Islam is the only truth" is incorrect as religion is only about belief (Imaan bil Ghaib) and cannot be demonstrably proven to be incontrovertibly correct.
 
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oh excellent I understand now. So essentially if I sudeenly started to fly and broke the rules that would eb a miracle yes?

What if I tell you the Quraan by its nature does it. It is a linguistic miracle. and breaks all the rules of language (arabic in this case) to produce a miracle, verified by experts.

"means does is miraculous it " also breaks the rules of English language. So does it make me miraculous as well?

The literary miracle that you are referring to is ambiguous by its very nature. Firstly because language is a medium of communication and thus anything which doesn't convey meaning properly by being abstruse or pedantic doesn't serve its purpose. In fact, it would be the opposite of being good. Good novels for e.g. use a lot of words to describe the context but are also easier to understand for someone with adequate skills. Secondly, the criteria of being the "best text written" is subjective and anything subjective is ambiguous. Note I am not saying that the Quran is ambiguous, what I am saying is that the criteria for "best text ever" is totally subjective. It is like looking at the best movie ever on IMDB or RottenTomatoes.
 
"means does is miraculous it " also breaks the rules of English language. So does it make me miraculous as well?

The literary miracle that you are referring to is ambiguous by its very nature. Firstly because language is a medium of communication and thus anything which doesn't convey meaning properly by being abstruse or pedantic doesn't serve its purpose. In fact, it would be the opposite of being good. Good novels for e.g. use a lot of words to describe the context but are also easier to understand for someone with adequate skills. Secondly, the criteria of being the "best text written" is subjective and anything subjective is ambiguous. Note I am not saying that the Quran is ambiguous, what I am saying is that the criteria for "best text ever" is totally subjective. It is like looking at the best movie ever on IMDB or RottenTomatoes.
Like your posts shakil. Keep it up
 
"means does is miraculous it " also breaks the rules of English language. So does it make me miraculous as well?

The literary miracle that you are referring to is ambiguous by its very nature. Firstly because language is a medium of communication and thus anything which doesn't convey meaning properly by being abstruse or pedantic doesn't serve its purpose. In fact, it would be the opposite of being good. Good novels for e.g. use a lot of words to describe the context but are also easier to understand for someone with adequate skills. Secondly, the criteria of being the "best text written" is subjective and anything subjective is ambiguous. Note I am not saying that the Quran is ambiguous, what I am saying is that the criteria for "best text ever" is totally subjective. It is like looking at the best movie ever on IMDB or RottenTomatoes.

The Quraan is neither "obtruse" nor pedantic as envisioned in the famous Surah Alkawthar. But that can be discussed later.

What i'm saying is this:

The Universe "began" to exist. And according to modern cosmology this is the predominant assertion. Therefore if it began to exist logically and rationally there can only be the following conclusions:

a) the universe appeared out of nowhere or came from nothing b) created itself c)be created by something that was in itself created d)created by an uncaused entity.

lets take a) you cant create something out of nothing b) its a paradox so absurd. c) problem of infinite regress d) most logical explanation your left with. you can call the uncaused entity whatever you want but logically your left with (d)


now we can always say "well I agree with you we dont really know" which is where the Deen comes in. We as Muslims then say "aha but we have a unique document and testimony that helps us fill that gap." and that document is the Quraan and the testimony is the life of the Prophet PBUH. Now using logic we know two things for certain:

a) The Prophet of islam PBUH existed and b) The Quraan was revealed (as Muslims say) or written down as Non Muslims would assert. Either way the book exists.

Now you can turn around as some of your coleagues have done above and say "well religion is backward, science is the only way , put your hands on your ears and then just do lalalala " or you could make a genuine attempt to understand where a Muslim is coming from.

Have you never wondered why Muslims remain adamant that they know the truth? there must be something there. It cant just be blind arrogance because that can be dispproved. Now I believe I've given a robust defence of my position in the posts above, and you cannot deny that (even though some posters choose to simply agree with what they want). Now Ill try and simplify this as best I can but the question is this: " How do we know?" the answer is due to the divinty of the Quraan itself.

Now you can turn around and say "well shakespeare wrote amazing poetry whats the big deal about the Quraan?" and thats a very good question.

"Although Shakespeare composed poetry and prose that received an unparalleled aesthetic reception, the literary form he expressed his works in was not unique" would you agree with this statement? I would. However in the case of the Qur’an, its language is in an entirely unknown and unmatched literary form.

"The structural features of the Qur’anic discourse render it unique and not the subjective appreciation of its literary and linguistic makeup."

Now about the Quraan. There is a universal truth about the Quraan that is accepted by Western and Eastern scholars. and that is "that it was never successfully imitated by the Arabs of the time of revelation". There is no deny this historical fact. So if we think logically then:

1. The Qur’an could not have come from an Arab as the Arabs, at the time of revelation, were linguists par excellence and they failed to challenge the Qur’an. They had even admitted that the Qur’an could have not come from a human being.

2. The Qur’an could not have come from a Non-Arab as the language in the Qur’an is Arabic, and the knowledge of the Arabic language is a pre-requisite to successfully challenge the Qur’an.

3. The Qur’an could not have come from the Prophet Muhammad due to the following reasons:

a. The Prophet Muhammad was an Arab himself and all the Arabs failed to challenge the Qur’an.

b. The Arabs linguists at the time of revelation never accused the Prophet of being the author of the Qur’an.

c. The Prophet Muhammad experienced many trials and tribulations during the course of his Prophetic mission. For example his children died, his beloved wife Khadija passed away, he was boycotted, his close companions were tortured and killed, yet the Qur’an’s literary character remains that of the divine voice and character. Nothing in the Qur’an expresses the turmoil and emotions of the Prophet Muhammad. It is almost a psychological and physiological impossibility to go through what the Prophet went through and yet none of the emotions are expressed in the literary character of the Qur’an.

and there are many other reasons I could type:

What makes the Qur’an a miracle, is that it lies outside the productive capacity of the nature of the Arabic language. The productive capacity of nature, concerning the Arabic language, is that any grammatically sound expression of the Arabic language will always fall within the known Arabic literary forms of Prose and Poetry.

The Qur’an is a miracle as its literary form cannot be explained via the productive capacity of the Arabic language, because all the possible combinations of Arabic words, letters and grammatical rules have been exhausted and yet the Qur’an’s literary form has not been imitated. The Arabs who were known to have been Arab linguists par excellence failed to successfully challenge the Qur’an.

and if you still then claim that The Prophet of Islam PBUH was responsible for it, you would somehow have to prove that an unlettered merchant from the 7th century, living in the middle of a desert, who was not a poet, was not interested in linguistic poetry etc, created a linguistic miracle that confounded the greatest linguists of the Arab language, constructed a massive conspiracy to fool people into thinking it was the word of God swt and proceeded to continue by roping in other upright citizens in his conspiracy. You have to prove that either he was a) a Liar b) Insane and lettered at the same time.

........So to disprove Islam completely you have to a) Disprove the Quraan and b) Disprove the Prophet PBUH. (as mentioned above)

Nobody has done that yet. Yes we see slander and dirt thrown at him PBUH but nobody denies the Quraan came from him (or via him as we believe). Not a single person.
 
"Although Shakespeare composed poetry and prose that received an unparalleled aesthetic reception, the literary form he expressed his works in was not unique" would you agree with this statement? I would.

I think Shakespeare poetry was unique but I am more comfortable with discussing Urdu poetry and to me Allama Iqbal's poetry was unique so much so that I can recognize that it is him just from a couple of lines.

However in the case of the Qur’an, its language is in an entirely unknown and unmatched literary form.
"The structural features of the Qur’anic discourse render it unique and not the subjective appreciation of its literary and linguistic makeup."

How do you know? Are you an Arabic speaker who has studied many Arabic literary works or are you just saying this from hearsay?

Now about the Quraan. There is a universal truth about the Quran that is accepted by Western and Eastern scholars. and that is "that it was never successfully imitated by the Arabs of the time of revelation". There is no deny this historical fact.

Neither is something like the Hindu books like Gita or Ramayan. And you and I know very well that Arabs were not much into literacy and book writing during the time of the prophet (PBUH). We don't know if they tried or not.

But tell me how many people have actually published a book as an imitation of Quran. It seems most people don't bother because every writer's writing style is unique. So it is absurd to even try to achieve something like that (esp. for a text whose language is ancient). This is esp. true for all old books like gita, uppanishad etc.

But it still doesn't answer my question about how do you really know if Quran's style is unique if you are not close to an expert in Arabic language?


1. The Qur’an could not have come from an Arab as the Arabs, at the time of revelation, were linguists par excellence and they failed to challenge the Qur’an. They had even admitted that the Qur’an could have not come from a human being.

They wrote very very few books that survived so we don't really know if they tried.

2. The Qur’an could not have come from a Non-Arab as the language in the Qur’an is Arabic, and the knowledge of the Arabic language is a pre-requisite to successfully challenge the Qur’an.

Again did you try to gain in depth knowledge to verify the claim or is it only your belief that the miracle is true?

3. The Qur’an could not have come from the Prophet Muhammad due to the following reasons:

a. The Prophet Muhammad was an Arab himself and all the Arabs failed to challenge the Qur’an.

We don't know as very few Arabic books survived. May be the Muslims rulers burned those books which actually very successful imitations. But only they were in some sort of position to comment about the literary style of Quran. The modern day Arabic is too different from the ancient Arabic that it is difficult to know much about how it compares to the other old ancient texts (as there are so few)

b. The Arabs linguists at the time of revelation never accused the Prophet of being the author of the Qur’an.

From Quran:
Nay, they say: "These (revelations of the Qur'an which are revealed to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) are mixed up false dreams! Nay, he has invented them! - Nay, he is a poet!

"They" could mean literary geniuses of the time or common people. So you are ignorant of the Quran here.


c. The Prophet Muhammad experienced many trials and tribulations during the course of his Prophetic mission. For example his children died, his beloved wife Khadija passed away, he was boycotted, his close companions were tortured and killed, yet the Qur’an’s literary character remains that of the divine voice and character. Nothing in the Qur’an expresses the turmoil and emotions of the Prophet Muhammad. It is almost a psychological and physiological impossibility to go through what the Prophet went through and yet none of the emotions are expressed in the literary character of the Qur’an.

Quran's purpose was not being a autobiography of the prophet (PBUH) so obviously such issues were not discussed. They were discussed in hadith which is some sort of biography of the prophet (PBUH). Do you mean here that people who have suffered cannot help discuss themselves in every book their write? And have you heard of split personalities disorder?

Anyway, this is such a weak point that I don't need feel the need to discuss it further.


What makes the Qur’an a miracle, is that it lies outside the productive capacity of the nature of the Arabic language. The productive capacity of nature, concerning the Arabic language, is that any grammatically sound expression of the Arabic language will always fall within the known Arabic literary forms of Prose and Poetry.

The Qur’an is a miracle as its literary form cannot be explained via the productive capacity of the Arabic language, because all the possible combinations of Arabic words, letters and grammatical rules have been exhausted and yet the Qur’an’s literary form has not been imitated. The Arabs who were known to have been Arab linguists par excellence failed to successfully challenge the Qur’an.

I would have taken this more seriously if you were an Arab or an Arabic language scholar.


and if you still then claim that The Prophet of Islam PBUH was responsible for it, you would somehow have to prove that an unlettered merchant from the 7th century, living in the middle of a desert, who was not a poet, was not interested in linguistic poetry etc, created a linguistic miracle that confounded the greatest linguists of the Arab language, constructed a massive conspiracy to fool people into thinking it was the word of God swt and proceeded to continue by roping in other upright citizens in his conspiracy. You have to prove that either he was a) a Liar b) Insane and lettered at the same time.

Or does it seem more plausible to you that an all-present, omnipotent God couldn't give his message to his creatures via a more effective way like beaming down books in each and every language of the time and the future or beaming the message directly in our heads. No it had to be just whispers to a person who had heard stories from his various trade-related travels and had befriended a Jewish scholar. But I digress.

Most Arabs of the time were unable to write so most would just memorize poems and stuff. You don't need to learn how to write to understand poetry. And a person who is suffering from delusions is not necessarily a complete lunatic. You have to learn something about mental disorders before you claim that a person with dual-personality/delusions cannot create any literary work.

........So to disprove Islam completely you have to a) Disprove the Quraan and b) Disprove the Prophet PBUH. (as mentioned above)

The proof is incumbent upon the claimant. Ever heard of that? And more important is that you need to prove it to yourself - not me.

Nobody has done that yet. Yes we see slander and dirt thrown at him PBUH but nobody denies the Quraan came from him (or via him as we believe). Not a single person.

How many anti-Islamic websites do you regularly visit and how many anti-Islamic books have you read? Did you try to verify the claims made by those anti-Islamic literature? And yet you don't feel any guilt in chest-thumping about how no one was able to refute the Quranic claims. If you keep your eyes closed, how can your claim that the world is only black and white be taken seriously?
 
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The Universe "began" to exist. And according to modern cosmology this is the predominant assertion. Therefore if it began to exist logically and rationally there can only be the following conclusions:

a) the universe appeared out of nowhere or came from nothing b) created itself c)be created by something that was in itself created d)created by an uncaused entity.

lets take a) you cant create something out of nothing b) its a paradox so absurd. c) problem of infinite regress d) most logical explanation your left with. you can call the uncaused entity whatever you want but logically your left with (d)

Like I said in my previous posts, Science is the best approximation we have but it is not really the ultimate truth. So we really cannot say anything what happens when even Science itself doesn't exists. Secondly, who knows if everything is eternal or if indeed cause and effect is only the characteristic of this universe only and not applicable in a multiverse of other realities.

Its all conjecture.

now we can always say "well I agree with you we dont really know" which is where the Deen comes in.

We don't really know means we don't really know. Period.
 
I think Shakespeare poetry was unique but I am more comfortable with discussing Urdu poetry and to me Allama Iqbal's poetry was unique so much so that I can recognize that it is him just from a couple of lines.

the point is could he have produced or even surpassed his works while breaking the rules of his language? the answer is no.



How do you know? Are you an Arabic speaker who has studied many Arabic literary works or are you just saying this from hearsay?

so essentially your only going to argue this point with someone who is a proven scholar of the arabic language? I am not a scholar but there is enough material out there that states the above. Think about it this way, if , if the Quraan could be imitated why wasnt it? there were plenty of expert around at the time for example. Here are some of the people who tried and failed:

Musaylamah; Ibn Al-Mukaffa; Yahya ibn Al-Hakam al-Ghazal; Sayyid ‘Ali Muhammad; Bassar ibn Burd





Neither is something like the Hindu books like Gita or Ramayan. And you and I know very well that Arabs were not much into literacy and book writing during the time of the prophet (PBUH). We don't know if they tried or not.


But tell me how many people have actually published a book as an imitation of Quran. It seems most people don't bother because every writer's writing style is unique. So it is absurd to even try to achieve something like that (esp. for a text whose language is ancient). This is esp. true for all old books like gita, uppanishad etc.



But it still doesn't answer my question about how do you really know if Quran's style is unique if you are not close to an expert in Arabic language?

Im getting this from people who are experts. So for example Forster Fitzgerald Arbuthnot, who was a notable British Orientalist and translator, states:

“…and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none has as yet succeeded.”

That was in the 1800's. So if we take his word for it then from the 1800's uptill now has anyone done it yet?

also the Quraan challenges its detractors in the following Surahs:

“If you are in doubt of what We have revealed to Our Messenger, then produce one chapter like it, call upon all your helpers, besides Allah, if you are truthful.” Surah al-Baqarah (The Heifer) 2: 23.

“Or do they say: “He (Prophet Muhammad, ) has forged it (this Qur’an)?” Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recitation like it (the Qur’an) if they are truthful.” Surah at-Toor (The Mount) 52: 33-34.

"According to Qur’anic commentators such as Ibn Kathir, Suyuti and Ibn Abbas, these verses issue a challenge to produce a chapter that imitates the unique literary form of the Qur’an.The tools needed to meet this challenge are the finite grammatical rules and the twenty eight letters that make-up the Arabic alphabet."



They wrote very very few books that survived so we don't really know if they tried.

Trust me, if the arabs had managed it the deen of Islam would not have spread far beyond a small cult in Mekkah. Why would it have if Muhammed PBUH had been proven to be a liar?


also to prove the Quraan wrong they didnt have to write a book, just construct a poem or some poetry or prose with the same tools and surpass it or even just imitate it. They failed.

Again did you try to gain in depth knowledge to verify the claim or is it only your belief that the miracle is true?



We don't know as very few Arabic books survived. May be the Muslims rulers burned those books which actually very successful imitations. But only they were in some sort of position to comment about the literary style of Quran. The modern day Arabic is too different from the ancient Arabic that it is difficult to know much about how it compares to the other old ancient texts (as there are so few)


actually enough poetry and books survive for arabic scholars to compare so thats not true.

ahh here we go again with the "we dont really know stuff"..look in 1400 years are you saying the arabs havent studied their own language? There is ample evidence from arabs themselves about the uniqueness of the Quraan. Just read some of the tafsir and summaries by some of the greatest commentators on the Quraan like Ibn Kathir, or any of the four Imams, Malik, Hanifi, ibn hanbal shaafi. Why would I not look at what these people have said? its called referencing.




Quran's purpose was not being a autobiography of the prophet (PBUH) so obviously such issues were not discussed. They were discussed in hadith which is some sort of biography of the prophet (PBUH). Do you mean here that people who have suffered cannot help discuss themselves in every book their write? And have you heard of split personalities disorder?

so are you saying the Prophet PBUH was ill? if that is the case shouldnt that reflect in either his hadith or the quraan itself? I mean shouldnt it then suffice it be even more amazing that an ill man, who was a merchant, unlettered in poetry (yes he was not a poet), managed to craft a literary work that has its own unique form outside of the standard poetic prose form of arabic?

also for over a millennia, the speech and writings of the Arabs have always fallen within the known forms and expressions of the Arabic language

Taha Husayn, a prominent Egyptian litterateur, in a public lecture summarised how the Qur’an achieves its own unique form:

“But you know that the Qur’an is not prose and that it is not verse either. It is rather Qur’an, and it cannot be called by any other name but this. It is not verse, and that is clear; for it does not bind itself to the bonds of verse. And it is not prose, for it is bound by bonds peculiar to itself, not found elsewhere; some of the binds are related to the endings of its verses, and some to that musical sound which is all its own."










I would have taken this more seriously if you were an Arab or an Arabic language scholar.

irrelevant statement since thats what the arabs themselves say.just go and see for yourself. You really need to stop with the shoot the messenger argument and deal with what I'm saying.


Or does it seem more plausible to you that an all-present, omnipotent God couldn't give his message to his creatures via a more effective way like beaming down books in each and every language of the time and the future or beaming the message directly in our heads. No it had to be just whispers to a person who had heard stories from his various trade-related travels and had befriended a Jewish scholar. But I digress.

why would he beam down books to a culture that didnt read??

The second point is easily refutable but for this discussion I'll ignore it.

Most Arabs of the time were unable to write so most would just memorize poems and stuff. You don't need to learn how to write to understand poetry. And a person who is suffering from delusions is not necessarily a complete lunatic. You have to learn something about mental disorders before you claim that a person with dual-personality/delusions cannot create any literary work.

your contradicting yourself, but lets leave that,

The proof is incumbent upon the claimant. Ever heard of that? And more important is that you need to prove it to yourself - not me.

I believe ive given enough of taster...now its upto you if youw ant to go further and research for yourself

How many anti-Islamic websites do you regularly visit and how many anti-Islamic books have you read? Did you try to verify the claims made by those anti-Islamic literature? And yet you don't feel any guilt in chest-thumping about how no one was able to refute the Quranic claims. If you keep your eyes closed, how can your claim that the world is only black and white be taken seriously?

again thats an erroneous argument. You see I was asked why I believed, and countered the argument that religions or in this case Islam was bunkum. I believe Ive done a pretty good job considering. Now there are many who say that the Prphet PBUH was mad but the majority of those have been refuted by other non Muslim scholars. Im not asking you to believe, all I'm saying that just because some of you believe science is the be all and end all there are many of us here who can equally argue that Islam can asnwer questions that science cant.

by a) the uniqueness of the Quraan and its message
b) the nature if its revelation
c) the nature of the Prphet pbuh e.g. who he was where he came from etc etc.

Now I could probably answer more questions and when I get some more time I will and we can continue this debate.
 
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Have any of you folk told your parents? Relatives? How did they take it?

Life's given me a lot, and I'm really happy. But one thing I long for is unconditional love from someone who takes me for who I am. I love my parents, my parents love me - but I'm afraid their love for religion outweigh's their love for me and that's one of the saddest feelings I've ever felt. I want them to know me for who I am but I don't want to take away their happiness - seeing them in pain because of me is not something that I could ever bear. More selfishly, I don't want to lose them either. So I conform to their desires and wishes, and I'm confined to living a life that I don't really understand.

I don't understand why religion takes the form it does in Islam. Bukhari outlines many hadith which call for the death of apostates as per the desire of the Prophet. It's just a tad excessive. I wish our culture was more open.

I can't force myself to believe in something that doesn't make logical sense to me. I just wish Muslims would understand that. Try telling yourself that the sky is yellow - it's hard right? That's similar trying to convince myself that Islam is true - and I tried long and hard, it just didn't work. Those few lonely months were among the worst I've ever lived. Not understanding yourself, who you are, feeling alienated are among the worst feelings.
 
Isn't death the punishment for apostasy in Islam? I'm sure it'd have been pretty hard for the ex-Muslims out here. If not and the religious people around you knew about this, haven't they done wrong by not taking any action on it? And if that is the case, which it is, will they be punished after their death?
 
Being an atheist does not mean one does not love his country. The freedom fighter Bhagat Singh wrote an interesting essay while he was lodged in the Lahore Central Jail in 1930, shortly before he was executed by the British in 1931.
It is titled "Why I am an Atheist".


It is a matter of debate whether my lack of belief in the existence of an Omnipresent, Omniscient God is due to my arrogant pride and vanity. It never occurred to me that sometime in the future I would be involved in polemics of this kind. As a result of some discussions with my friends, (if my claim to friendship is not uncalled for) I have realised that after having known me for a little time only, some of them have reached a kind of hasty conclusion about me that my atheism is my foolishness and that it is the outcome of my vanity. Even then it is a serious problem. I do not boast of being above these human follies. I am, after all, a human being and nothing more. And no one can claim to be more than that. I have a weakness in my personality, for pride is one of the human traits that I do possess. I am known as a dictator among my friends. Sometimes I am called a boaster. Some have always been complaining that I am bossy and I force others to accept my opinion. Yes, it is true to some extent. I do not deny this charge. We can use the word ‘vainglory’ for it. As far as the contemptible, obsolete, rotten values of our society are concerned, I am an extreme sceptic. But this question does not concern my person alone. It is being proud of my ideas, my thoughts. It cannot be called empty pride. Pride, or you may use the word, vanity, both mean an exaggerated assessment of one’s personality. Is my atheism because of unnecessary pride, or have I ceased believing in God after thinking long and deep on the matter? I wish to put my ideas before you. First of all, let us differentiate between pride and vanity as these are two different things.

I have never been able to understand how unfounded, baseless pride or empty vanity can hinder a person from believing in God. I may refuse to acknowledge the greatness of a really great person only when I have got fame without doing any serious efforts or when I lack the superior mental powers necessary to become great. It is easy to understand but how is it possible that a believer can turn into a non-believer because of his vanity? Only two things are possible: either a man deems himself to be in possession of Godly qualities, or he goes a step further and declares himself to be a god. In both these states of mind he cannot be an atheist in the true sense of the word. In the first case, it is not an outright rejection of God’s existence; in the other, he is affirming the existence of some kind of supernatural power responsible for the working of universe. It does not harm our argument whether he claims to be a god or considers God to be a reality in existence above his own being. The real point, however, is that in both cases he is a theist, a believer. He is not an atheist. I want to bring home this point to you. I am not one of these two creeds. I totally reject the existence of an Omnipresent, all powerful, all knowing God. Why so? I will discuss it later in the essay. Here I wish to emphasise that I am not an atheist for the reason that I am arrogant or proud or vain; nor am I a demi-god, nor a prophet; no, nor am I God myself. At least one thing is true that I have not evolved this thought because of vanity or pride. In order to answer this question I relate the truth. My friends say that after Delhi bombing and Lahore Conspiracy Case, I rocketed to fame and that this fact has turned my head. Let us discuss why this allegation is incorrect. I did not give up my belief in God after these incidents. I was an atheist even when I was an unknown figure. At least a college student cannot cherish any sort of exaggerated notion of himself that may lead him to atheism. It is true that I was a favourite with some college teachers, but others did not like me. I was never a hardworking or studious boy. I never got an opportunity to be proud. I was very careful in my behaviour and somewhat pessimistic about my future career. I was not completely atheistic in my beliefs. I was brought up under the care and protection of my father. He was a staunch Arya Samaji. An Arya Samaji can be anything but never an atheist. After my elementary education, I was sent to D. A. V College, Lahore. I lived in the boarding house for one year. Besides prayers early in the morning and at dusk time, I sat for hours and chanted religious Mantras. At that time, I was a staunch believer. Then I lived with my father. He was a tolerant man in his religious views. It is due to his teachings that I devoted my life for the cause of liberating my country. But he was not an atheist. His God was an all-pervading Entity. He advised me to offer my prayers every day. In this way I was brought up. In the Non-cooperation days, I got admission to the National College. During my stay in this college, I began thinking over all the religious polemics such that I grew sceptical about the existence of God. In spite of this fact I can say that my belief in God was firm and strong. I grew a beard and ‘Kais’ (long head of hair as a Sikh religious custom). In spite of this I could not convince myself of the efficacy of Sikh religion or any religion at all, for that matter. But I had an unswerving, unwavering belief in God.

Then I joined the Revolutionary Party. The first leader I met had not the courage to openly declare himself an atheist. He was unable to reach any conclusion on this point. Whenever I asked him about the existence of God, he gave me this reply: “You may believe in him when you feel like it.” The second leader with whom I came in contact was a firm believer. I should mention his name. It was our respected Comrade Sachindara Nath Sanyal. He was sentenced to life imprisonment in connection with Karachi conspiracy case. Right from the first page of his only book, ‘Bandi Jivan’ (Incarnated Life) he sings praises to the Glory of God. See the last page of the second part of this book and you find praises showered upon God in the way of a mystic. It is a clear reflection of his thoughts.

According to the prosecution, the ‘Revolutionary Leaflet’ which was distributed throughout India was the outcome of Sachindara Nath Sanyal’s intellectual labour. So often it happens that in revolutionary activities a leader expresses his own ideas which may be very dear to him, but in spite of having differences, the other workers have to acquiesce in them.

In that leaflet, one full paragraph was devoted to the praises of God and His doings which we, human beings, cannot understand. This is sheer mysticism. What I want to point out is that the idea of denying the existence of God did not even occur to the Revolutionary Party. The famous Kakory martyrs, all four of them, passed their last day in prayers. Ram Parshad Bismal was a staunch Arya Samaji. In spite of his vast studies in Socialism and Communism, Rajan Lahiri could not suppress his desire to recite hymns from Upanishads and Gita. There was but only one person among them who did not indulge in such activities. He used to say, “Religion is the outcome of human weakness or the limitation of human knowledge.” He is also in prison for life. But he also never dared to deny the existence of God.

Till that time I was only a romantic revolutionary, just a follower of our leaders. Then came the time to shoulder the whole responsibility. For some time, a strong opposition put the very existence of the party into danger. Many leaders as well as many enthusiastic comrades began to uphold the party to ridicule. They jeered at us. I had an apprehension that some day I will also consider it a futile and hopeless task. It was a turning point in my revolutionary career. An incessant desire to study filled my heart. ‘Study more and more’, said I to myself so that I might be able to face the arguments of my opponents. ‘Study’ to support your point of view with convincing arguments. And I began to study in a serious manner. My previous beliefs and convictions underwent a radical change. The romance of militancy dominated our predecessors; now serious ideas ousted this way of thinking. No more mysticism! No more blind faith! Now realism was our mode of thinking. At times of terrible necessity, we can resort to extreme methods, but violence produces opposite results in mass movements. I have talked much about our methods. The most important thing was a clear conception of our ideology for which we were waging a long struggle. As there was no election activity going on, I got ample opportunity to study various ideas propounded by various writers. I studied Bakunin, the anarchist leader. I read a few books of Marx, the father of Communism. I also read Lenin and Trotsky and many other writers who successfully carried out revolutions in their countries. All of them were atheists. The ideas contained in Bakunin’s ‘God and State’ seem inconclusive, but it is an interesting book. After that I came across a book ‘Common Sense’ by Nirlamba Swami. His point of view was a sort of mystical atheism. I developed more interest in this subject. By the end of 1926, I was convinced that the belief in an Almighty, Supreme Being who created, guided and controlled the universe had no sound foundations. I began discussions on this subject with my friends. I had openly declared myself an atheist. What it meant will be discussed in the following lines.

In May 1927, I was arrested in Lahore. This arrest came as a big surprise for me. I had not the least idea that I was wanted by the police. I was passing through a garden and all of a sudden the police surrounded me. To my own surprise, I was very calm at that time. I was in full control of myself. I was taken into police custody. The next day I was taken to the Railway Police lockup where I spent a whole month. After many days’ conversation with police personnel, I guessed that they had some information about my connection with the Kakori Party. I felt they had some intelligence of my other activities in the revolutionary movement. They told me that I was in Lucknow during the Kakori Party Trial so that I might devise a scheme to rescue the culprits. They also said that after the plan had been approved, we procured some bombs and by way of test, one of those bombs was thrown into a crowd on the occasion of Dussehra in 1926. They offered to release me on condition that I gave a statement on the activities of the Revolutionary Party. In this way I would be set free and even rewarded and I would not be produced as an approver in the court. I could not help laughing at their proposals. It was all humbug. People who have ideas like ours do not throw bombs at their own innocent people. One day, Mr. Newman, the then senior Superintendent of CID, came to me. After a long talk which was full of sympathetic words, he imparted to me what he considered to be sad news, that if I did not give any statement as demanded by them, they would be forced to send me up for trial for conspiracy to wage war in connection with Kakori Case and also for brutal killings in Dussehra gathering. After that he said that he had sufficient evidence to get me convicted and hanged.

I was completely innocent, but I believed that the police had sufficient power to do it if they desired it to be so. The same day some police officers persuaded me to offer my prayers to God two times regularly. I was an atheist. I thought that I would settle it to myself whether I could brag only in days of peace and happiness that I was an atheist, or in those hard times I could be steadfast in my convictions. After a long debate with myself, I reached the conclusion that I could not even pretend to be a believer nor could I offer my prayers to God. No, I never did it. It was time of trial and I would come out of it successful. These were my thoughts. Never for a moment did I desire to save my life. So I was a true atheist then and I am an atheist now. It was not an easy task to face that ordeal. Beliefs make it easier to go through hardships, even make them pleasant. Man can find a strong support in God and an encouraging consolation in His Name. If you have no belief in Him, then there is no alternative but to depend upon yourself. It is not child’s play to stand firm on your feet amid storms and strong winds. In difficult times, vanity, if it remains, evaporates and man cannot find the courage to defy beliefs held in common esteem by the people. If he really revolts against such beliefs, we must conclude that it is not sheer vanity; he has some kind of extraordinary strength. This is exactly the situation now. First of all we all know what the judgement will be. It is to be pronounced in a week or so. I am going to sacrifice my life for a cause. What more consolation can there be! A God-believing Hindu may expect to be reborn a king; a Muslim or a Christian might dream of the luxuries he hopes to enjoy in paradise as a reward for his sufferings and sacrifices. What hope should I entertain? I know that will be the end when the rope is tightened round my neck and the rafters move from under my feet. To use more precise religious terminology, that will be the moment of utter annihilation. My soul will come to nothing. If I take the courage to take the matter in the light of ‘Reward’, I see that a short life of struggle with no such magnificent end shall itself be my ‘Reward.’ That is all. Without any selfish motive of getting any reward here or in the hereafter, quite disinterestedly have I devoted my life to the cause of freedom. I could not act otherwise. The day shall usher in a new era of liberty when a large number of men and women, taking courage from the idea of serving humanity and liberating them from sufferings and distress, decide that there is no alternative before them except devoting their lives for this cause. They will wage a war against their oppressors, tyrants or exploiters, not to become kings, or to gain any reward here or in the next birth or after death in paradise; but to cast off the yoke of slavery, to establish liberty and peace they will tread this perilous, but glorious path. Can the pride they take in their noble cause be called vanity? Who is there rash enough to call it so? To him I say either he is foolish or wicked. Leave such a fellow alone for he cannot realise the depth, the emotions, the sentiment and the noble feelings that surge in that heart. His heart is dead, a mere lump of flesh, devoid of feelings. His convictions are infirm, his emotions feeble. His selfish interests have made him incapable of seeing the truth. The epithet ‘vanity’ is always hurled at the strength we get from our convictions.

You go against popular feelings; you criticise a hero, a great man who is generally believed to be above criticism. What happens? No one will answer your arguments in a rational way; rather you will be considered vainglorious. Its reason is mental insipidity. Merciless criticism and independent thinking are the two necessary traits of revolutionary thinking. As Mahatmaji is great, he is above criticism; as he has risen above, all that he says in the field of politics, religion, Ethics is right. You agree or not, it is binding upon you to take it as truth. This is not constructive thinking. We do not take a leap forward; we go many steps back.

Our forefathers evolved faith in some kind of Supreme Being, therefore, one who ventures to challenge the validity of that faith or denies the existence of God, shall be called a Kafir (infidel), or a renegade. Even if his arguments are so strong that it is impossible to refute them, if his spirit is so strong that he cannot be bowed down by the threats of misfortune that may befall him through the wrath of the Almighty, he shall be decried as vainglorious. Then why should we waste our time in such discussions? This question has come before the people for the first time, hence the necessity and usefulness of such long discussions.

As far as the first question is concerned, I think I have made it clear that I did not turn atheist because of vanity. Only my readers, not I, can decide whether my arguments carry weight. If I were a believer, I know in the present circumstances my life would have been easier; the burden lighter. My disbelief in God has turned all the circumstances too harsh and this situation can deteriorate further. Being a little mystical can give the circumstances a poetic turn. But I need no opiate to meet my end. I am a realistic man. I want to overpower this tendency in me with the help of Reason. I am not always successful in such attempts. But it is man’s duty to try and make efforts. Success depends on chance and circumstances.

Now we come to the second question: if it is not vanity, there ought to be some sound reason for rejection of age-old belief in God. Yes, I come to this question. I think that any man who has some reasoning power always tries to understand the life and people around him with the help of this faculty. Where concrete proofs are lacking, [mystical] philosophy creeps in. As I have indicated, one of my revolutionary friends used to say that “philosophy is the outcome of human weakness.” Our ancestors had the leisure to solve the mysteries of the world, its past, its present and its future, its whys and its wherefores, but having been terribly short of direct proofs, every one of them tried to solve the problem in his own way. Hence we find wide differences in the fundamentals of various religious creeds. Sometimes they take very antagonistic and conflicting forms. We find differences in Oriental and Occidental philosophies. There are differences even amongst various schools of thoughts in each hemisphere. In Asian religions, the Muslim religion is completely incompatible with the Hindu faith. In India itself, Buddhism and Jainism are sometimes quite separate from Brahmanism. Then in Brahmanism itself, we find two conflicting sects: Aarya Samaj and Snatan Dheram. Charwak is yet another independent thinker of the past ages. He challenged the Authority of God. All these faiths differ on many fundamental questions, but each of them claims to be the only true religion. This is the root of the evil. Instead of developing the ideas and experiments of ancient thinkers, thus providing ourselves with the ideological weapon for the future struggle, – lethargic, idle, fanatical as we are – we cling to orthodox religion and in this way reduce human awakening to a stagnant pool.

It is necessary for every person who stands for progress to criticise every tenet of old beliefs. Item by item he has to challenge the efficacy of old faith. He has to analyse and understand all the details. If after rigorous reasoning, one is led to believe in any theory of philosophy, his faith is appreciated. His reasoning may be mistaken and even fallacious. But there is chance that he will be corrected because Reason is the guiding principle of his life. But belief, I should say blind belief is disastrous. It deprives a man of his understanding power and makes him reactionary.

Any person who claims to be a realist has to challenge the truth of old beliefs. If faith cannot withstand the onslaught of reason, it collapses. After that his task should be to do the groundwork for new philosophy. This is the negative side. After that comes in the positive work in which some material of the olden times can be used to construct the pillars of new philosophy. As far as I am concerned, I admit that I lack sufficient study in this field. I had a great desire to study the Oriental Philosophy, but I could get ample opportunity or sufficient time to do so. But so far as I reject the old time beliefs, it is not a matter of countering belief with belief, rather I can challenge the efficacy of old beliefs with sound arguments. We believe in nature and that human progress depends on the domination of man over nature. There is no conscious power behind it. This is our philosophy.

Being atheist, I ask a few questions from theists:

1. If, as you believe there is an Almighty, Omnipresent, Omniscient God, who created the earth or universe, please let me know, first of all, as to why he created this world. This world which is full of woe and grief, and countless miseries, where not even one person lives in peace.

2. Pray, don’t say it is His law. If He is bound by any law, He is not Omnipotent. Don’t say it is His pleasure. Nero burnt one Rome. He killed a very limited number of people. He caused only a few tragedies, all for his morbid enjoyment. But what is his place in history? By what names do we remember him? All the disparaging epithets are hurled at him. Pages are blackened with invective diatribes condemning Nero: the tyrant, the heartless, the wicked.

One Genghis Khan killed a few thousand people to seek pleasure in it and we hate the very name. Now, how will you justify your all powerful, eternal Nero, who every day, every moment continues his pastime of killing people? How can you support his doings which surpass those of Genghis Khan in cruelty and in misery inflicted upon people? I ask why the Almighty created this world which is nothing but a living hell, a place of constant and bitter unrest. Why did he create man when he had the power not to do so? Have you any answer to these questions? You will say that it is to reward the sufferer and punish the evildoer in the hereafter. Well, well, how far will you justify a man who first of all inflicts injuries on your body and then applies soft and soothing ointment on them? How far the supporters and organizers of Gladiator bouts were justified in throwing men before half starved lions, later to be cared for and looked after well if they escaped this horrible death. That is why I ask: Was the creation of man intended to derive this kind of pleasure?

Open your eyes and see millions of people dying of hunger in slums and huts dirtier than the grim dungeons of prisons; just see the labourers patiently or say apathetically while the rich vampires suck their blood; bring to mind the wastage of human energy that will make a man with a little common sense shiver in horror. Just observe rich nations throwing their surplus produce into the sea instead of distributing it among the needy and deprived. There are palaces of kings built upon the foundations laid with human bones. Let them see all this and say “All is well in God’s Kingdom.” Why so? This is my question. You are silent. All right. I proceed to my next point.

You, the Hindus, would say: Whosoever undergoes sufferings in this life, must have been a sinner in his previous birth. It is tantamount to saying that those who are oppressors now were Godly people then, in their previous births. For this reason alone they hold power in their hands. Let me say it plainly that your ancestors were shrewd people. They were always in search of petty hoaxes to play upon people and snatch from them the power of Reason. Let us analyse how much this argument carries weight!

Those who are well versed in the philosophy of Jurisprudence relate three of four justifications for the punishment that is to be inflicted upon a wrong-doer. These are: revenge, reform, and deterrence. The Retribution Theory is now condemned by all the thinkers. Deterrent theory is on the anvil for its flaws. Reformative theory is now widely accepted and considered to be necessary for human progress. It aims at reforming the culprit and converting him into a peace-loving citizen. But what in essence is God’s Punishment even if it is inflicted on a person who has really done some harm? For the sake of argument we agree for a moment that a person committed some crime in his previous birth and God punished him by changing his shape into a cow, cat, tree, or any other animal. You may enumerate the number of these variations in Godly Punishment to be at least eighty-four lack. Tell me, has this tomfoolery, perpetrated in the name of punishment, any reformative effect on human man? How many of them have you met who were donkeys in their previous births for having committed any sin? Absolutely no one of this sort! The so called theory of ‘Puranas’ (transmigration) is nothing but a fairy-tale. I do not have any intention to bring this unutterable trash under discussion. Do you really know the most cursed sin in this world is to be poor? Yes, poverty is a sin; it is a punishment! Cursed be the theoretician, jurist or legislator who proposes such measures as push man into the quagmire of more heinous sins. Did it not occur to your All Knowing God or he could learn the truth only after millions had undergone untold sufferings and hardships? What, according to your theory, is the fate of a person who, by no sin of his own, has been born into a family of low caste people? He is poor so he cannot go to a school. It is his fate to be shunned and hated by those who are born into a high caste. His ignorance, his poverty, and the contempt he receives from others will harden his heart towards society. Supposing that he commits a sin, who shall bear the consequences? God, or he, or the learned people of that society? What is your view about those punishments inflicted on the people who were deliberately kept ignorant by selfish and proud Brahmans? If by chance these poor creatures heard a few words of your sacred books, Vedas, these Brahmans poured melted lead into their ears. If they committed any sin, who was to be held responsible? Who was to bear the brunt? My dear friends, these theories have been coined by the privileged classes. They try to justify the power they have usurped and the riches they have robbed with the help of such theories. Perhaps it was the writer Upton Sinclair who wrote (Bhagat Singh is referring to Sinclair’s pamphlet ‘Profits of Religion’ – MIA transcriber) somewhere “only make a man firm believer in the immortality of soul, then rob him of all that he possesses. He will willingly help you in the process.” The dirty alliance between religious preachers and possessors of power brought the boon of prisons, gallows, knouts and above all such theories for the mankind.

I ask why your Omnipotent God does not hold a man back when he is about to commit a sin or offence. It is child’s play for God. Why did He not kill war lords? Why did He not obliterate the fury of war from their minds? In this way He could have saved humanity of many a great calamity and horror. Why does He not infuse humanistic sentiments into the minds of the Britishers so that they may willingly leave India? I ask why He does not fill the hearts of all capitalist classes with altruistic humanism that prompts them to give up personal possession of the means of production and this will free the whole labouring humanity from the shackles of money. You want to argue the practicability of Socialist theory, I leave it to your Almighty God to enforce it. Common people understand the merits of Socialist theory as far as general welfare is concerned but they oppose it under the pretext that it cannot be implemented. Let the Almighty step in and arrange things in a proper way. No more logic chopping! I tell you that the British rule is not there because God willed it but for the reason that we lack the will and courage to oppose it. Not that they are keeping us under subjugation with the consent of God, but it is with the force of guns and rifles, bombs and bullets, police and militia, and above all because of our apathy that they are successfully committing the most deplorable sin, that is, the exploitation of one nation by another. Where is God? What is He doing? Is He getting a diseased pleasure out of it? A Nero! A Genghis Khan! Down with Him!

Now another piece of manufactured logic! You ask me how I will explain the origin of this world and origin of man. Charles Darwin has tried to throw some light on this subject. Study his book. Also, have a look at Sohan Swami’s “Commonsense.” You will get a satisfactory answer. This topic is concerned with Biology and Natural History. This is a phenomenon of nature. The accidental mixture of different substances in the form of Nebulae gave birth to this earth. When? Study history to know this. The same process caused the evolution of animals and in the long run that of man. Read Darwin’s ‘Origin of Species.’ All the later progress is due to man’s constant conflict with nature and his efforts to utilise nature for his own benefit. This is the briefest sketch of this phenomenon.

Your next question will be why a child is born blind or lame even if he was not a sinner in his previous birth. This problem has been explained in a satisfactory manner by biologists as a mere biological phenomenon. According to them the whole burden rests upon the shoulders of parents whose conscious or unconscious deeds caused mutilation of the child prior to his birth.

You may thrust yet another question at me, though it is merely childish. The question is: If God does not really exist, why do people come to believe in Him? Brief and concise my answer will be. As they come to believe in ghosts, and evil spirits, so they also evolve a kind of belief in God: the only difference being that God is almost a universal phenomenon and well developed theological philosophy. However, I do disagree with radical philosophy. It attributes His origin to the ingenuity of exploiters who wanted to keep the people under their subjugation by preaching the existence of a Supreme Being; thus claimed an authority and sanction from Him for their privileged position. I do not differ on the essential point that all religions, faiths, theological philosophies, and religious creeds and all other such institutions in the long run become supporters of the tyrannical and exploiting institutions, men and classes. Rebellion against any king has always been a sin in every religion.

As regard the origin of God, my thought is that man created God in his imagination when he realized his weaknesses, limitations and shortcomings. In this way he got the courage to face all the trying circumstances and to meet all dangers that might occur in his life and also to restrain his outbursts in prosperity and affluence. God, with his whimsical laws and parental generosity was painted with variegated colours of imagination. He was used as a deterrent factor when his fury and his laws were repeatedly propagated so that man might not become a danger to society. He was the cry of the distressed soul for he was believed to stand as father and mother, sister and brother, brother and friend when in time of distress a man was left alone and helpless. He was Almighty and could do anything. The idea of God is helpful to a man in distress.

Society must fight against this belief in God as it fought against idol worship and other narrow conceptions of religion. In this way man will try to stand on his feet. Being realistic, he will have to throw his faith aside and face all adversaries with courage and valour. That is exactly my state of mind. My friends, it is not my vanity; it is my mode of thinking that has made me an atheist. I don’t think that by strengthening my belief in God and by offering prayers to Him every day, (this I consider to be the most degraded act on the part of man) I can bring improvement in my situation, nor can I further deteriorate it. I have read of many atheists facing all troubles boldly, so I am trying to stand like a man with the head high and erect to the last; even on the gallows.

Let us see how steadfast I am. One of my friends asked me to pray. When informed of my atheism, he said, “When your last days come, you will begin to believe.” I said, “No, dear sir, Never shall it happen. I consider it to be an act of degradation and demoralisation. For such petty selfish motives, I shall never pray.” Reader and friends, is it vanity? If it is, I stand for it.
 
Have any of you folk told your parents? Relatives? How did they take it?

Life's given me a lot, and I'm really happy. But one thing I long for is unconditional love from someone who takes me for who I am. I love my parents, my parents love me - but I'm afraid their love for religion outweigh's their love for me and that's one of the saddest feelings I've ever felt. I want them to know me for who I am but I don't want to take away their happiness - seeing them in pain because of me is not something that I could ever bear. More selfishly, I don't want to lose them either. So I conform to their desires and wishes, and I'm confined to living a life that I don't really understand.

I don't understand why religion takes the form it does in Islam. Bukhari outlines many hadith which call for the death of apostates as per the desire of the Prophet. It's just a tad excessive. I wish our culture was more open.

I can't force myself to believe in something that doesn't make logical sense to me. I just wish Muslims would understand that. Try telling yourself that the sky is yellow - it's hard right? That's similar trying to convince myself that Islam is true - and I tried long and hard, it just didn't work. Those few lonely months were among the worst I've ever lived. Not understanding yourself, who you are, feeling alienated are among the worst feelings.

Do you live in an Islamic country? If it was me in your position I wouldn't really see the need to tell your parents if it's not going to gain anything. Privately you can believe whatever you want anyway.
 
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