Are Muslims safe in Europe?

[MenInG]

Simple question.

As a Muslim living in Europe, do you feel safe? If not, why not?

 

[MenInG]

Dont think there is immediate danger but people need to act sensibly.

 

[Rayyman]

Feeling threatened can lead to a bottled emotion of wanting to fight back in some way. Unfortunately many Muslims have these emotions abused by Terrorist organizations and are brainwashed into becoming psycho. So I would say to either not feel threatened at all or if you are threatened, then try to release some of these feelings peacefully. Maybe by protesting the acts against Muslims. Otherwise it's not good to bottle up these feelings of being threatened. They can lead to a lashing out type event.

 

[MenInG]

Feeling threatened can lead to a bottled emotion of wanting to fight back in some way. Unfortunately many Muslims have these emotions abused by Terrorist organizations and are brainwashed into becoming psycho. So I would say to either not feel threatened at all or if you are threatened, then try to release some of these feelings peacefully. Maybe by protesting the acts against Muslims. Otherwise it's not good to bottle up these feelings of being threatened. They can lead to a lashing out type event.

Sorry - "Most" Muslims? Where did you get that idea from?

 

[Rayyman]

Sorry - "Most" Muslims? Where did you get that idea from?

Many means "a large amount". There are thousands of "Muslim" terrorists which is a number way too high for my liking.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I get where you are coming from, but you could just as well ask "as a non-Muslim in Europe do you feel safe in Europe?" It's those guys who are getting spooked when they see hijabs and beards on a plane and when you consider the headlines you would assume it is them who have more to fear.

 

[HussainRx8]

Many means "a large amount". There are thousands of "Muslim" terrorists which is a number way too high for my liking.

Please provide evidence for the claim.

Even if their numbers are up to a thousand, they represent >.0001% (1000/1.7 bn) Muslims worldwide. So, no they're not a "large amount."

 

[The_KING]

I feel safe in England but then again I don't have a beard and neither do I dress in a way which would give away my identity.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

So the Answer is

1. Daarheeaan mundwa dou

2. Daftar ya School mein ghalti se Namaz na perh lena kisi ko pata na chal jaey.

3. Dupattay, Hijaab, Naqab, Burqa, Gown phenk dou phir he integrate ho sako ge

4. Jo b haath berhaey Salaam ka foran haath milao mehrum namehrum kuch nai hota. Haath na milana budikhlaqi hai.

5. Ye service nakaafi hai aor mehnat kero. Baaloun ka rung badal daalo, skin whitening injections lagwao.

6. Haan apna naam badalna na bhoolna.



Kisi ko pata na chal jaey mein musalmaan hun.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Feeling threatened can lead to a bottled emotion of wanting to fight back in some way. Unfortunately many Muslims have these emotions abused by Terrorist organizations and are brainwashed into becoming psycho. So I would say to either not feel threatened at all or if you are threatened, then try to release some of these feelings peacefully. Maybe by protesting the acts against Muslims. Otherwise it's not good to bottle up these feelings of being threatened. They can lead to a lashing out type event.

Excellent Post.


Short but A*


Truth/Reality.


May Allah bless you and your loved ones for this Sachaee. Blunt truth.

 

[WC-Passion]

Not sure how it is in other european countries, but in the UK I feel fine.

 

[endymion248]

Of course. It's just about perception. The homicides rates in Europe are the lowest in the world. Corruption is rare and so is obstruction of justice. If you're an average american, you're far more likely to be killed by a toddler wielding a gun than a muslim is in Europe of being killed in a hate crime. If you live in the UAE then you are far more likely to die in a road accident than a terror attack in Europe (where I use public transportation). So why exactly should we not feel ''safe''?

 

[endymion248]

So the Answer is

1. Daarheeaan mundwa dou

2. Daftar ya School mein ghalti se Namaz na perh lena kisi ko pata na chal jaey.

3. Dupattay, Hijaab, Naqab, Burqa, Gown phenk dou phir he integrate ho sako ge

4. Jo b haath berhaey Salaam ka foran haath milao mehrum namehrum kuch nai hota. Haath na milana budikhlaqi hai.

5. Ye service nakaafi hai aor mehnat kero. Baaloun ka rung badal daalo, skin whitening injections lagwao.

6. Haan apna naam badalna na bhoolna.



Kisi ko pata na chal jaey mein musalmaan hun.

Be my guest and go back to the place where you can't even call yourself muslim, let alone do all these things.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Of course. It's just about perception. The homicides rates in Europe are the lowest in the world. Corruption is rare and so is obstruction of justice. If you're an average american, you're far more likely to be killed by a toddler wielding a gun than a muslim is in Europe of being killed in a hate crime. If you live in the UAE then you are far more likely to die in a road accident than a terror attack in Europe (where I use public transportation). So why exactly should we not feel ''safe''?

Due to Terrorist attacks and hate crimes. But still overall Europe is Safe. Hate Crimes if any usually get reported so are in limelight while in 3rd world countries there are thousands of hate crimes occuring daily which aren't reported.


Going back 10 years Europe was far more safe with less hate crimes against muslims.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Be my guest and go back to the place where you can't even call yourself muslim, let alone do all these things.

Why why why ?

 

[endymion248]

Why why why ?

Because you, of all people, shouldn't be criticizing how unsafe Europe is for your religion.

 

[endymion248]

Due to Terrorist attacks and hate crimes. But still overall Europe is Safe. Hate Crimes if any usually get reported so are in limelight while in 3rd world countries there are thousands of hate crimes occuring daily which aren't reported.


Going back 10 years Europe was far more safe with less hate crimes against muslims.

Going back 10 years, there were far fewer muslims in Europe. So of course hate crimes would be fewer too.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Because you, of all people, shouldn't be criticizing how unsafe Europe is for your religion.

You could not comprehend the meaning unfortunately.


It was a dig at our new warrior.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Going back 10 years, there were far fewer muslims in Europe. So of course hate crimes would be fewer too.

So the change of events is due to increase in Entry of Muslims into Europe ?

 

[endymion248]

You could not comprehend the meaning unfortunately.


It was a dig at our new warrior.

Ok sorry then. Sarcasm doesn't translate well over text.

 

[endymion248]

So the change of events is due to increase in Entry of Muslims into Europe ?

Partly, yes. Partly because of the socio-economic level of these immigrants.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Ok sorry then. Sarcasm doesn't translate well over text.

Don't be Sorry for your genuine feelings


bloodshed took place in the name of religion, because Muslims said Rabbunallaha, our Lord, is Allah. This persecution and torture was perpetrated in the name of religion because, according to the polytheists of Makkah, the Prophet’s and the Muslims were apostates. The polytheists called the Prophet and his followers ‘Sabi’—people who discard their ancestral religion and adopt a new one. In order to put down this ‘evil’, the Makkans adopted methods of torture and suppression which had been used by their predecessors. Muhammad(saw) and his followers suffered patiently and with fortitude for a long time to prove that evil is caused by anti-religious people and not by followers of the truth.


They used to say : We are Muslims call us Muslim. What did the other group say ? Hey! Don't call yourself Muslims, You are not Muslims You are Saabi. So call yourself Saabi not Muslim.


History repeats itself repeats itself.


Didn't the Prophet of Islam say " Meray aor uskay haalaat meray aor meray sahaba jesay houn ge "


So should we cry at Mushaabehat (similarities) or the stamps and verdicts ?


I don't mind anybody from the same group who said don't call yourself muslim but call yourself Saabi

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Partly, yes. Partly because of the socio-economic level of these immigrants.

You are an intelligent poster on subjects minus religion. I may be totally wrong.

So the terrorist attacks and rise in hate crimes against Muslims is because of the socio-economic level of these immigrants ?

Really ?

Maza nai aaya bhaee.

 

[endymion248]

You are an intelligent poster on subjects minus religion. I may be totally wrong.

So the terrorist attacks and rise in hate crimes against Muslims is because of the socio-economic level of these immigrants ?

Really ?

Maza nai aaya bhaee.

Yes, of course. If you look at the US, they don't have the same problem with ghettoization and terrorism. They don't integrate immigrants better; in fact they have lower social mobility than most European countries. It's far better to be an immigrant without anything in Sweden or Denmark than in the USA. But the main difference is that the muslims who go to the US are educated and well to do in their original countries because the US is isolated by two oceans from muslim countries.

Meanwhile, refugees and economic migrants without any formal education pour into Europe. These people, not being educated enough, 1) are more religiously conservative and 2) form low income ghettoes between themselves by living in social (government subsidized housing) which means that their kids are more likely to be poor, non-integrated and radicalized.

Many muslims integrate into mainstream european society and many muslim immigrants are educated. But those people don't live in the ghettoes and don't mix with the radicalized/poor populations.

Now we come to the rise in hate crimes against Muslims. What makes people racist against muslims? The first thing is simply that uneducated white working class are xenophobic against outsiders. 10 years ago that was Poles, today it's muslims. The basic reason is rise in numbers, there are fewer eastern europeans coming and more muslims (due to syrian refugee crisis). For example, in UK, they will be more racist against Pakistanis. In France, they will be more racist against Algerians. Why? Numbers. The second is terrorist attacks normalize hate against muslim immigrants. And that ties back to my first point.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Yes, of course. If you look at the US, they don't have the same problem with ghettoization and terrorism. They don't integrate immigrants better; in fact they have lower social mobility than most European countries. It's far better to be an immigrant without anything in Sweden or Denmark than in the USA. But the main difference is that the muslims who go to the US are educated and well to do in their original countries because the US is isolated by two oceans from muslim countries.

Meanwhile, refugees and economic migrants without any formal education pour into Europe. These people, not being educated enough, 1) are more religiously conservative and 2) form low income ghettoes between themselves by living in social (government subsidized housing) which means that their kids are more likely to be poor, non-integrated and radicalized.

Many muslims integrate into mainstream european society and many muslim immigrants are educated. But those people don't live in the ghettoes and don't mix with the radicalized/poor populations.

Now we come to the rise in hate crimes against Muslims. What makes people racist against muslims? The first thing is simply that uneducated white working class are xenophobic against outsiders. 10 years ago that was Poles, today it's muslims. The basic reason is rise in numbers, there are fewer eastern europeans coming and more muslims (due to syrian refugee crisis). For example, in UK, they will be more racist against Pakistanis. In France, they will be more racist against Algerians. Why? Numbers. The second is terrorist attacks normalize hate against muslim immigrants. And that ties back to my first point.

That's a decent argument. So terrorism is not the primary factor ? Did Poles drive such kind of Hate Crimes which we see these days post Terrorism Wave ?

 

[Azzurri]

I feel much more safer in Europe as compared to pakistan

 

[endymion248]

That's a decent argument. So terrorism is not the primary factor ? Did Poles drive such kind of Hate Crimes which we see these days post Terrorism Wave ?

Google ''hate crimes against poles brexit'' or ''hate crimes gypsies''.

These are isolated incidents, be it against muslims or eastern europeans. Terrorism plays a part in normalizing the racism, people can hide behind excuses. But hate crime numbers are still low.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Yes, of course. If you look at the US, they don't have the same problem with ghettoization and terrorism. They don't integrate immigrants better; in fact they have lower social mobility than most European countries. It's far better to be an immigrant without anything in Sweden or Denmark than in the USA. But the main difference is that the muslims who go to the US are educated and well to do in their original countries because the US is isolated by two oceans from muslim countries.

Meanwhile, refugees and economic migrants without any formal education pour into Europe. These people, not being educated enough, 1) are more religiously conservative and 2) form low income ghettoes between themselves by living in social (government subsidized housing) which means that their kids are more likely to be poor, non-integrated and radicalized.

Many muslims integrate into mainstream european society and many muslim immigrants are educated. But those people don't live in the ghettoes and don't mix with the radicalized/poor populations.

Now we come to the rise in hate crimes against Muslims. What makes people racist against muslims? The first thing is simply that uneducated white working class are xenophobic against outsiders. 10 years ago that was Poles, today it's muslims. The basic reason is rise in numbers, there are fewer eastern europeans coming and more muslims (due to syrian refugee crisis). For example, in UK, they will be more racist against Pakistanis. In France, they will be more racist against Algerians. Why? Numbers. The second is terrorist attacks normalize hate against muslim immigrants. And that ties back to my first point.

Concur with everything except this. They're actually quite ignorant, in fact most of what they know has intertwined with their culture. Culturally conservative would be more accurate.

 

[endymion248]

Concur with everything except this. They're actually quite ignorant, in fact most of what they know has intertwined with their culture. Culturally conservative would be more accurate.

Wahabbism and its effects discredits the idea that Pakistani culture is to blame.

 

[90MPH]

I feel perfectly safe in the UK.

Most Muslims should feel safer in Europe than most other places in the world.

The far right is still minuscule in terms of any real threat.

I do feel though salafist type Muslims shouldn't reside in Europe - their views are too extreme and they give Muslims in general a bad name. I have no idea why they would want to live in such liberal countries when they have such polarising warped views.

 

[PakLFC]

Yes by and large Muslim people are safe in Europe. I have never felt unsafe or anything like that. It's still much safer here then it is in Muslim countries.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The safest place ive been is UAE, no crime is a massive positive for any person staying/living there.

As the OP is regarding Muslims being attacked by facists , the truth is they are very very small in number. However there are a lot more closet racists/Islamaphobes but if they do attack any Muslim it would a woman mainly. UK is very safe overall for Muslims.

Muslims are at risk in places like Palestine, Kashmir, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Pakistan etc etc.. Wonder why.

 

[Justcrazy]

Safety is in the hands of Allah swt , if he wants to save you none can harm.

 

[shaz619]

It's pretty safe in Birmingham, not so sure about Manchester [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

 

[Saeed]

Yes Europe is still the safest place in world especially Western Europe. Terrorist attacks and hate crimes have increased but anyone using violence gets arrested. This is what I like about Europe, people eventually get justice no matter who is involved. Western Europe has done more for Muslims in recent years than Muslim countries.

 

[Wristy_Shuffler]

Of course. It's just about perception. The homicides rates in Europe are the lowest in the world. Corruption is rare and so is obstruction of justice. If you're an average american, you're far more likely to be killed by a toddler wielding a gun than a muslim is in Europe of being killed in a hate crime. If you live in the UAE then you are far more likely to die in a road accident than a terror attack in Europe (where I use public transportation). So why exactly should we not feel ''safe''?

It is about perception, the perception of muslims. And that's shaped more by the mainstream media/internet than anything else. Also, the statistical probability of death via hate crime is a crude measure of just how safe a people are from said hate crime or any crime at all.

It would be interesting to know the thoughts of women on this as I'm sure more hate crime has been directed at them.

 

[Junaids]

Simple question.

As a Muslim living in Europe, do you feel safe? If not, why not?

They should feel an awful lot safer than poor Asia Bibi, or the decent Pakistanis who have been murdered for standing up for her rights.

The problem is this. With the exception of a few places like Poland, Europe is a collection of post-religion societies.

I remember when Catholic churches would refuse to marry couples who already lived together or had children together. Not any more. Even the churches recognize that even those people who nominally follow those religions blatantly ignore their teachings.

This makes devoutly religious immigrants into outsiders in our societies from the outset. People who are visibly devoutly religious are even more self-excluded from our society, hence other people's comments about beards on this thread.

But then you cross a further line with things like the burqa or niqab which most of us in Europe don't just view as alien but as offensive, misogynistic and unacceptable. Even when ladies choose to wear them. On the one hand we try to accommodate diversity and liberty. But many of us are troubled by that, or by religious courts such as the Sharia ones in the UK.

So it is a very complex issue.

 

[Junaids]

It's pretty safe in Birmingham, not so sure about Manchester [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

On my last visit home I took my daughter to my favourite restaurant in "Little Pakistan" on Wilmslow Rd in Rusholme, near Manchester University.

She has lived all her life in Australia, and she was actually scared by the sights of Pakistani men with beards like Inzamam-ul-Haq and she was bemused by seeing large groups of men at tables with no women there.

That was an eye opener for me. It made me realize that both "sides" tend to fear the other out of ignorance. It made me make a mental note to try to give my kids a broader exposure to different cultures.

The dangerous ingredient in the recipe is ignorance breeding fear.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

So the Answer is

1. Daarheeaan mundwa dou

2. Daftar ya School mein ghalti se Namaz na perh lena kisi ko pata na chal jaey.

3. Dupattay, Hijaab, Naqab, Burqa, Gown phenk dou phir he integrate ho sako ge

4. Jo b haath berhaey Salaam ka foran haath milao mehrum namehrum kuch nai hota. Haath na milana budikhlaqi hai.

5. Ye service nakaafi hai aor mehnat kero. Baaloun ka rung badal daalo, skin whitening injections lagwao.

6. Haan apna naam badalna na bhoolna.



Kisi ko pata na chal jaey mein musalmaan hun.

Aur Han !! agar kahen Halal khana na milay toh math poochna kay halal milta hay ya nahe !!.....Jaisa chal raha hay chalayay jayoo doston !!

Musalman Wagera hona toh gher zarori hota hay, It's all about being liberal and integrating with the 'modern culture of the west'

It's pretty clear why Allah sets the sun in the direction it does !!

 

[CricketCartoons]

As a brown guy on his honeymoon trip, had one incident in a train so far...otherwise felt safe.

 

[endymion248]

They should feel an awful lot safer than poor Asia Bibi, or the decent Pakistanis who have been murdered for standing up for her rights.

The problem is this. With the exception of a few places like Poland, Europe is a collection of post-religion societies.

I remember when Catholic churches would refuse to marry couples who already lived together or had children together. Not any more. Even the churches recognize that even those people who nominally follow those religions blatantly ignore their teachings.

This makes devoutly religious immigrants into outsiders in our societies from the outset. People who are visibly devoutly religious are even more self-excluded from our society, hence other people's comments about beards on this thread.

But then you cross a further line with things like the burqa or niqab which most of us in Europe don't just view as alien but as offensive, misogynistic and unacceptable. Even when ladies choose to wear them. On the one hand we try to accommodate diversity and liberty. But many of us are troubled by that, or by religious courts such as the Sharia ones in the UK.

So it is a very complex issue.

If Europe is a post-religious society then it is about time the English give back Northern Ireland to [MENTION=136108]Donal Cozzie[/MENTION] and his mates.

 

[Junaids]

If Europe is a post-religious society then it is about time the English give back Northern Ireland to [MENTION=136108]Donal Cozzie[/MENTION] and his mates.

I'm actually all for a Border Poll. I think the partition of Ireland was as wrong as the partition of India.

I have family in Scotland, and find the whole sectarian divide ludicrous.

 

[kaayal]

People are really nice tbh. One german lady even consoled me when i got lost on my way to weihnachtsmarkt.

Only the older people stares at you when you talk in your native language and that's understandable.

 

[shaz619]

On my last visit home I took my daughter to my favourite restaurant in "Little Pakistan" on Wilmslow Rd in Rusholme, near Manchester University.

She has lived all her life in Australia, and she was actually scared by the sights of Pakistani men with beards like Inzamam-ul-Haq and she was bemused by seeing large groups of men at tables with no women there.

That was an eye opener for me. It made me realize that both "sides" tend to fear the other out of ignorance. It made me make a mental note to try to give my kids a broader exposure to different cultures.

The dangerous ingredient in the recipe is ignorance breeding fear.

) that's pretty funny, what kind of restaurant was this large groups of men and all. Your daughter would never feel that way in Brum. Our beards are friendly and look the part :moeenali , you get a good male/female ratio to. I think what you saw was a Manchester trademark, not a lack of cultural exposure

Typically though in such restaurants you find the following groups:

1.Big family, fairly mixed

2.Big group of lads having a night out

3.Big group of ladies having a night out

4.Big group of ladies/lads having a night out

5.Big group of hungry beards having a fat munch tired from all the praying in the mosque

6.Small group ladies or lads just having a night out

7.Then you get two popular combinations of couples in the following types:
Zayn Malik/Gigi
Amir Khan/Faryal

 

[Junaids]

) that's pretty funny, what kind of restaurant was this large groups of men and all. Your daughter would never feel that way in Brum. Our beards are friendly and look the part :moeenali , you get a good male/female ratio to. I think what you saw was a Manchester trademark, not a lack of cultural exposure

Typically though in such restaurants you find the following groups:

1.Big family, fairly mixed

2.Big group of lads having a night out

3.Big group of ladies having a night out

4.Big group of ladies/lads having a night out

5.Big group of hungry beards having a fat munch tired from all the praying in the mosque

6.Small group ladies or lads just having a night out

7.Then you get two popular combinations of couples in the following types:
Zayn Malik/Gigi
Amir Khan/Faryal

This was category 6!

Growing up in Manchester I only saw clean shaved Pakistanis in the 1970's. But my dad's best friend from school in Dacca is a Pakistani, and I was used to seeing beards and Asian clothes when we visited him in Bradford.

But my daughter had never seen a big bushy beard before, let alone half a dozen at a table!

I love Moeen Ali. He's a national treasure. The only bit of his origins that I object to is Brum, not Pakistan!

 

[Black Zero]

As a brown guy on his honeymoon trip, had one incident in a train so far...otherwise felt safe.

Congrats..
and thanks for taking time to comment, during honeymoon trip.

 

[endymion248]

I'm actually all for a Border Poll. I think the partition of Ireland was as wrong as the partition of India.

I have family in Scotland, and find the whole sectarian divide ludicrous.

At last something we agree on. Ireland to the Irish.

 

[miandadrules]

The safest place ive been is UAE, no crime is a massive positive for any person staying/living there.

As the OP is regarding Muslims being attacked by facists , the truth is they are very very small in number. However there are a lot more closet racists/Islamaphobes but if they do attack any Muslim it would a woman mainly. UK is very safe overall for Muslims.

Muslims are at risk in places like Palestine, Kashmir, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Pakistan etc etc.. Wonder why.

I guess slavery isn't a crime nor a safety issue for some.

 

[miandadrules]

) that's pretty funny, what kind of restaurant was this large groups of men and all. Your daughter would never feel that way in Brum. Our beards are friendly and look the part :moeenali , you get a good male/female ratio to. I think what you saw was a Manchester trademark, not a lack of cultural exposure

Typically though in such restaurants you find the following groups:

1.Big family, fairly mixed

2.Big group of lads having a night out

3.Big group of ladies having a night out

4.Big group of ladies/lads having a night out

5.Big group of hungry beards having a fat munch tired from all the praying in the mosque

6.Small group ladies or lads just having a night out

7.Then you get two popular combinations of couples in the following types:
Zayn Malik/Gigi
Amir Khan/Faryal

It's funny you should mention that as Birmingham and the West Midlands in general are regarded as the most segregated in the UK.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-society-white-majority-british-a7395491.html

 

[shaz619]

It's funny you should mention that as Birmingham and the West Midlands in general are regarded as the most segregated in the UK.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-society-white-majority-british-a7395491.html

Well I've never felt that during my entire life time so that article is a load of garbage for me

 

[miandadrules]

Well I've never felt that during my entire life time so that article is a load of garbage for me

But that's the issue at it's core.

Simply because we don't experience something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

If I use myself as an example, due to my education and social status, along with the circles I now mix in, would it be justifiable for me to say that racism and anti-muslim bigotry doesn't exist as I now hardly ever experience it?

We have to move away from our tribalistic instincts and address the very real issues that affect our fellow humans. Even if it means raising uncomfortable questions.

 

[shaz619]

But that's the issue at it's core.

Simply because we don't experience something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

If I use myself as an example, due to my education and social status, along with the circles I now mix in, would it be justifiable for me to say that racism and anti-muslim bigotry doesn't exist as I now hardly ever experience it?

We have to move away from our tribalistic instincts and address the very real issues that affect our fellow humans. Even if it means raising uncomfortable questions.

I think it exists on a big scale mostly for people who worship the white man and want others to get in bed with the white man like them. They also don't like how others can be themselves before a variety of communities and hate how we all get along just fine something they're unable to given their false sense of esteem and sucking up to certain classes

 

[miandadrules]

I think it exists on a big scale mostly for people who worship the white man and want others to get in bed with the white man like them. They also don't like how others can be themselves before a variety of communities and hate how we all get along just fine something they're unable to given their false sense of esteem and sucking up to certain classes

What do you mean by worship the "white man"?

Isn't that terminology exactly what is used to shut down any introspection and discussion?

Who is asking whom to "get in bed" with the "white man" and what does that actually mean?

Why are you assuming that segregation is purely an issue for the non-caucasian population? Who says that caucasians are absolved of the responsibility of segregation?

Which variety of communities are getting along when they are segregated and ghettoised?

You are also failing to see the distinction between segregation and integration. They are not concordant. To avoid isolationism and the bigotry it festers doesn't necessarily result in integration. And integration doesn't mean aping the dominant culture.

What do you mean they get along just fine, when racial tensions spill over periodically? This is the case within ethnicities. There is no denying the tensions, underlying as they maybe but exists within Pakistani, Sikh, Bengali, Afro-Caribbean communities to name a few.

Who is sucking up to whom and what classes and what self-esteem is derived from it? This propaganda tactic of demonising the other is simply used to shut down any analysis and ultimately perpetuates ignorance.

 

[shaz619]

What do you mean by worship the "white man"?

Isn't that terminology exactly what is used to shut down any introspection and discussion?

Who is asking whom to "get in bed" with the "white man" and what does that actually mean?

Why are you assuming that segregation is purely an issue for the non-caucasian population? Who says that caucasians are absolved of the responsibility of segregation?

Which variety of communities are getting along when they are segregated and ghettoised?

You are also failing to see the distinction between segregation and integration. They are not concordant. To avoid isolationism and the bigotry it festers doesn't necessarily result in integration. And integration doesn't mean aping the dominant culture.

What do you mean they get along just fine, when racial tensions spill over periodically? This is the case within ethnicities. There is no denying the tensions, underlying as they maybe but exists within Pakistani, Sikh, Bengali, Afro-Caribbean communities to name a few.

Who is sucking up to whom and what classes and what self-esteem is derived from it? This propaganda tactic of demonising the other is simply used to shut down any analysis and ultimately perpetuates ignorance.

There isn't a place in this country which is 100% perfect but one of the biggest issue is the bigoted and narrow minded coconut army not sure if you've come across them but such folk incite hatred and try to divide our communities! they have failed to get along with the rest of us so throw a tantrum about segregation etc

 

[miandadrules]

There isn't a place in this country which is 100% perfect but one of the biggest issue is the bigoted and narrow minded coconut army not sure if you've come across them but such folk incite hatred and try to divide our communities! they have failed to get along with the rest of us so throw a tantrum about segregation etc

I have come across all sorts.

But to identify the "coconut army" and ignore the "segregationists" is disingenuous.

How are the communities getting a long when they have such little interaction with each other? The problems only arise along the fault lines. However, the longer the communities are segregated the greater the opportunity bigotry has to fester and the greater friction there is along those fault lines.

This doesn't apply to one community but to all. How many times do individuals in these communities question bigoted statements, prejudicial beliefs and demonisation of others which is "protected" under the guise of ones cultural norms? Be it in a bourgeoisie caucasian area or an ethnic underprivileged ghetto.

Simply because you and I are enjoying the fruits of a comfortable and secure life doesn't mean we are absolved of the responsibility to address the suffering and dangers present to others. Through inaction we are culpable.

To simply label anyone who brings up such an issue as an "Uncle Tom" is an insidious attempt to shut down any discussion which questions ones core beliefs.

Remember you can't claim injustice whilst at the same time perpetuating its application.

 

[shaz619]

I have come across all sorts.

But to identify the "coconut army" and ignore the "segregationists" is disingenuous.

How are the communities getting a long when they have such little interaction with each other? The problems only arise along the fault lines. However, the longer the communities are segregated the greater the opportunity bigotry has to fester and the greater friction there is along those fault lines.

This doesn't apply to one community but to all. How many times do individuals in these communities question bigoted statements, prejudicial beliefs and demonisation of others which is "protected" under the guise of ones cultural norms? Be it in a bourgeoisie caucasian area or an ethnic underprivileged ghetto.

Simply because you and I are enjoying the fruits of a comfortable and secure life doesn't mean we are absolved of the responsibility to address the suffering and dangers present to others. Through inaction we are culpable.

To simply label anyone who brings up such an issue as an "Uncle Tom" is an insidious attempt to shut down any discussion which questions ones core beliefs.

Remember you can't claim injustice whilst at the same time perpetuating its application.

Wow, I admire your morals and good intentions. How do you propose me and you can make a difference to solve these problems practically?

 

[miandadrules]

Wow, I admire your morals and good intentions. How do you propose me and you can make a difference to solve these problems practically?

The first thing we could do is address our own prejudices, both of us. Regardless of how we "moral" we think we are we have have to accept that we are all burdened with prejudice and often live out entire lives without questioning it. And I don't mean making superficial statements but a deep introspection of every facet of what we believe and act. Hopefully, we then try to not allow these prejudices cripple our future generations.

The second part is to confront bigotry in our own social circles, be it family, friends or community as a whole. Now, this is no simple task and can result in drastic consequences, such as ostracisation. You have to ask yourself if that is a trade-off you are willing to make.

But what I see all to often and on PP regularly is people crying foul when there is perceived bigotry towards then whilst being all too happy to indulge in it when someone else or a group is on the receiving end. Where is the morality in that?

 

[shaz619]

I have come across all sorts.

But to identify the "coconut army" and ignore the "segregationists" is disingenuous.

How are the communities getting a long when they have such little interaction with each other? The problems only arise along the fault lines. However, the longer the communities are segregated the greater the opportunity bigotry has to fester and the greater friction there is along those fault lines.

This doesn't apply to one community but to all. How many times do individuals in these communities question bigoted statements, prejudicial beliefs and demonisation of others which is "protected" under the guise of ones cultural norms? Be it in a bourgeoisie caucasian area or an ethnic underprivileged ghetto.

Simply because you and I are enjoying the fruits of a comfortable and secure life doesn't mean we are absolved of the responsibility to address the suffering and dangers present to others. Through inaction we are culpable.

To simply label anyone who brings up such an issue as an "Uncle Tom" is an insidious attempt to shut down any discussion which questions ones core beliefs.

Remember you can't claim injustice whilst at the same time perpetuating its application.

There are movements which encourage inter faith relations and interaction with different communities, there are benefits of diversity but I understand where you are coming from when it comes to segregation; there certainly is friction as we've seen in the past when it came to the riots in 2011 but our communities stood together when Haroon, Shazad and Abdul died when a war could easily have erupted between the asian and afro-carribean communities. There are many examples of us standing together not that am denying there are problems, I also feel that when you go beyond the city no one can relate to you better then a person of any colour from where you originate but that also stems from the folk you interact with not being of a similar class, e.g the poor and wealthy not all of us have perfect upbringings mate; that's not to say a middle ground can't be achieved despite that barrier.

 

[shaz619]

The first thing we could do is address our own prejudices, both of us. Regardless of how we "moral" we think we are we have have to accept that we are all burdened with prejudice and often live out entire lives without questioning it. And I don't mean making superficial statements but a deep introspection of every facet of what we believe and act. Hopefully, we then try to not allow these prejudices cripple our future generations.

The second part is to confront bigotry in our own social circles, be it family, friends or community as a whole. Now, this is no simple task and can result in drastic consequences, such as ostracisation. You have to ask yourself if that is a trade-off you are willing to make.

But what I see all to often and on PP regularly is people crying foul when there is perceived bigotry towards then whilst being all too happy to indulge in it when someone else or a group is on the receiving end. Where is the morality in that?

Which prejudices do you mean? and which bigotry do speak off in our own circles or the ones you have encountered on PP

 

[miandadrules]

There are movements which encourage inter faith relations and interaction with different communities, there are benefits of diversity but I understand where you are coming from when it comes to segregation; there certainly is friction as we've seen in the past when it came to the riots in 2011 but our communities stood together when Haroon, Shazad and Abdul died when a war could easily have erupted between the asian and afro-carribean communities. There are many examples of us standing together not that am denying there are problems, I also feel that when you go beyond the city no one can relate to you better then a person of any colour from where you originate but that also stems from the folk you interact with not being of a similar class, e.g the poor and wealthy not all of us have perfect upbringings mate; that's not to say a middle ground can't be achieved despite that barrier.

Do these movements really address the core issue or is it a photo op and a "circle-jerk". Are the grass roots issues addressed?

The communities came together to prevent the "war" but have the causative agents that led to the "war" been addressed?

You can say the communities stood together but also it can be said that an ethnic conflict would simply have been too costly to the communities with no upside. Destruction of property and individuals incarcerated over what? I feel it was this rather than a true drive to heal the rifts that exist.

The fact that we see colour rather than actions shows how little progress we have made. How can you can't relate to someone when you have never truly spent any time with them? It might be come as a surprise to you but a 20 year old asian male probably has more in common with a 20 year old from any other ethnicity than they do with a 40 year old in their own community, obviously factoring in socioeconomic parameters.

To have preconceived ideas of the "other" hinders any chance of even a semblance of understanding.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

There are movements which encourage inter faith relations and interaction with different communities, there are benefits of diversity but I understand where you are coming from when it comes to segregation; there certainly is friction as we've seen in the past when it came to the riots in 2011 but our communities stood together when Haroon, Shazad and Abdul died when a war could easily have erupted between the asian and afro-carribean communities. There are many examples of us standing together not that am denying there are problems, I also feel that when you go beyond the city no one can relate to you better then a person of any colour from where you originate but that also stems from the folk you interact with not being of a similar class, e.g the poor and wealthy not all of us have perfect upbringings mate; that's not to say a middle ground can't be achieved despite that barrier.

Assalamoalaikum. Enjoying the conversation between you and m.rules.

what are those movements and how are they contributing to English societies ?

 

[miandadrules]

Which prejudices do you mean? and which bigotry do speak off in our own circles or the ones you have encountered on PP

Have you ever made sweeping generalisation about a group of people?

Ever questioned the beliefs you've accepted as fact?

Ever accepted a rationale simply because it makes you feel good without contemplating the consequences?

Ever heard bigoted statements from friends or family which you either accepted without questioning or didn't counter out of fear for not rocking the boat?

Nearly ever thread on PP is mired in bigotry, though it may not seem it and the perpetrators seem either ignorant to it at best or subversive at worst.

How many threads are there where posters claim the moral high-ground whilst at the same time espousing bigoted views. This goes for all the groups and ethnicities that post on here. Their view point tacitly shifts depending on who the people in question are.

All blinded by their chosen ideology, be it religious, nationalistic or any other you came to mention.

 

[shaz619]

Do these movements really address the core issue or is it a photo op and a "circle-jerk". Are the grass roots issues addressed?

The communities came together to prevent the "war" but have the causative agents that led to the "war" been addressed?

You can say the communities stood together but also it can be said that an ethnic conflict would simply have been too costly to the communities with no upside. Destruction of property and individuals incarcerated over what? I feel it was this rather than a true drive to heal the rifts that exist.

The fact that we see colour rather than actions shows how little progress we have made. How can you can't relate to someone when you have never truly spent any time with them? It might be come as a surprise to you but a 20 year old asian male probably has more in common with a 20 year old from any other ethnicity than they do with a 40 year old in their own community, obviously factoring in socioeconomic parameters.

To have preconceived ideas of the "other" hinders any chance of even a semblance of understanding.

There were lads prepared to fight the last thing on their minds was destruction of property, what prevented that was Tariq Jahan pleading for peace. These movements are making an effort, they've done well to limit road warriors.

In the inner city most school's are very diverse and a tolerance of each other can develop over time, they also tend to come from similar backgrounds when it comes to class and can relate to each other when it comes to social issues. In the ideal scenario we'd like for a situation where such students can interact with the types you find at grammar school's but they're expensive and only the wealthy can afford to go to those, in run down areas you won't find many goreh and those who you do find are usually just like you. Those who attend a uni beyond the city or get into a top 10 or top 20 uni will get to interact with the most versatile groups of people, it's great but not everyone is able to go or they just pursue other endeavours.

It's not a surprise, I mean how many 20 year olds are there out there who are on a level with 40 year olds it's not like you can play video games or go clubbing together with them there's too big an age gap obviously you're going to have more in common with a 20 year old, but am not sure why you seem to think that everyone only has asian friends?

 

[shaz619]

Have you ever made sweeping generalisation about a group of people?

Ever questioned the beliefs you've accepted as fact?

Ever accepted a rationale simply because it makes you feel good without contemplating the consequences?

Ever heard bigoted statements from friends or family which you either accepted without questioning or didn't counter out of fear for not rocking the boat?

Nearly ever thread on PP is mired in bigotry, though it may not seem it and the perpetrators seem either ignorant to it at best or subversive at worst.

How many threads are there where posters claim the moral high-ground whilst at the same time espousing bigoted views. This goes for all the groups and ethnicities that post on here. Their view point tacitly shifts depending on who the people in question are.

All blinded by their chosen ideology, be it religious, nationalistic or any other you came to mention.

Yes I guess that's unfortunate isn't it I don't disagree with what you've said, are all those rhetorical questions or am I supposed to answer to this interrogation

 

[miandadrules]

There were lads prepared to fight the last thing on their minds was destruction of property, what prevented that was Tariq Jahan pleading for peace. These movements are making an effort, they've done well to limit road warriors.

In the inner city most school's are very diverse and a tolerance of each other can develop over time, they also tend to come from similar backgrounds when it comes to class and can relate to each other when it comes to social issues. In the ideal scenario we'd like for a situation where such students can interact with the types you find at grammar school's but they're expensive and only the wealthy can afford to go to those, in run down areas you won't find many goreh and those who you do find are usually just like you. Those who attend a uni beyond the city or get into a top 10 or top 20 uni will get to interact with the most versatile groups of people, it's great but not everyone is able to go or they just pursue other endeavours.

It's not a surprise, I mean how many 20 year olds are there out there who are on a level with 40 year olds it's not like you can play video games or go clubbing together with them there's too big an age gap obviously you're going to have more in common with a 20 year old, but am not sure why you seem to think that everyone only has asian friends?

The "lads" were going to fight but it was the elder statesmen of the communities in co-operation with the police that diffused the situation. And it was those parties that would have a lot to lose in a conflict.

The problem with the schooling is a social one too. As is the case with segregation. By me bringing up this issue it isn't to suggest that there is something inherently isolationist within these communities, something which certain "enlightened" PP posters condescendingly refer to but to address the infrastructure which created it and one which is now being reinforced by the said communities.

Issues within the schooling system in Birmingham have been well documented and despite cries of conspiracy theories by all parties they highlight some very real issues that will hinder the development of our future generations. You should go to school to learn how to think, not to pass tests.

Depends what your definition of a "friend" is. You know the old saying "I can't be racist I have a black friend". Is someone you have cursory relationship with truly a friend? You once told me that since going to University that you found it hard to relate to certain groups of people because you felt it hard to relate to a culture that revolved around drinking and going out. But that is as a superficial understanding as all a Muslim is all about Prayers and Curry. I apologise if I've got this wrong.

 

[miandadrules]

Yes I guess that's unfortunate isn't it I don't disagree with what you've said, are all those rhetorical questions or am I supposed to answer to this interrogation

They're rhetorical.

You asked about the prejudices we all suffer from. Ask yourself those questions as a starting point. Just because we all have prejudices doesn't mean we all have the same or even to the same degree.

I ask myself those questions each time I am confronted with a scenario.

 

[shaz619]

The "lads" were going to fight but it was the elder statesmen of the communities in co-operation with the police that diffused the situation. And it was those parties that would have a lot to lose in a conflict.

The problem with the schooling is a social one too. As is the case with segregation. By me bringing up this issue it isn't to suggest that there is something inherently isolationist within these communities, something which certain "enlightened" PP posters condescendingly refer to but to address the infrastructure which created it and one which is now being reinforced by the said communities.

Issues within the schooling system in Birmingham have been well documented and despite cries of conspiracy theories by all parties they highlight some very real issues that will hinder the development of our future generations. You should go to school to learn how to think, not to pass tests.

Depends what your definition of a "friend" is. You know the old saying "I can't be racist I have a black friend". Is someone you have cursory relationship with truly a friend? You once told me that since going to University that you found it hard to relate to certain groups of people because you felt it hard to relate to a culture that revolved around drinking and going out. But that is as a superficial understanding as all a Muslim is all about Prayers and Curry. I apologise if I've got this wrong.

Which was great to see, we don't see that often where sense prevails. I didn't live too far from the scene of the crime and go to the local mosque there, during the friday prayer we had the leaders of all the communities attend as well to display solidarity.

How are the communities reinforcing the infrastructure in school? and depending on where you live or how much money you have where you go isn't a constant across the city, but the same can be said for places beyond brum

Definitely, I've made such mates at uni. I did find that people couldn't relate to me as much given that they'd not come across anyone quiet like my background and personally being someone that didn't drink or go out sure I wasn't going to relate to those who did but that's not limited to my ethnic origin or religion because that would be a narrow minded view on ones trait because there are those whom are of a different ethnicity/religion who are in the same boat as you who don't drink or go clubbing, it's not something which needs to be done in order to integrate. Over time I've come to develop good relationship with such folk given that I share a house with those who drink, go out; they respect that I don't and I don't have an issue with their personal choices.

 

[miandadrules]

Which was great to see, we don't see that often where sense prevails. I didn't live too far from the scene of the crime and go to the local mosque there, during the friday prayer we had the leaders of all the communities attend as well to display solidarity.

How are the communities reinforcing the infrastructure in school? and depending on where you live or how much money you have where you go isn't a constant across the city, but the same can be said for places beyond brum

Definitely, I've made such mates at uni. I did find that people couldn't relate to me as much given that they'd not come across anyone quiet like my background and personally being someone that didn't drink or go out sure I wasn't going to relate to those who did but that's not limited to my ethnic origin or religion because that would be a narrow minded view on ones trait because there are those whom are of a different ethnicity/religion who are in the same boat as you who don't drink or go clubbing, it's not something which needs to be done in order to integrate. Over time I've come to develop good relationship with such folk given that I share a house with those who drink, go out; they respect that I don't and I don't have an issue with their personal choices.

Sense may have prevailed but it was due to the unacceptable cost and not because of any moral awakening. The fact remains that the underlying issues remain and have not been addressed.

With regards to how communities are reinforcing the infrastructure, let me explain. This isn't a situation the migrant nor the host communities created but what they fell in to as a result of mass migration from the former colonies. However, these demarcations have been fortified with subsequent generations resulting in greater isolation. Now, the respective communities are fortifying this first by denying that there even is an issue.

Secondly, there isn't a drive to create schools along fault lines to allow greater integration from a younger age.

This situation is accentuated in Birmingham but it is prevalent throughout the country and no where is a bastion of successful progressiveness.

Communities are now reluctant to integrate and are becoming insular under the guise of maintaining the cultural identity. The push for more faith based schools in an already fragmented society will simply exacerbate the situation further. Certain community members pushing for such faith based focus even in state schools highlights the serious issues that are not being addressed.

So it took you over 20 years to finally meet people and appreciate people that were completely different to you and seeing beyond the stereotypes you had of them and they had of you but it took time. Now, do you think you would have had a better word view if you had experienced it from the age of 10, rather than 20?

 

[shaz619]

Sense may have prevailed but it was due to the unacceptable cost and not because of any moral awakening. The fact remains that the underlying issues remain and have not been addressed.

With regards to how communities are reinforcing the infrastructure, let me explain. This isn't a situation the migrant nor the host communities created but what they fell in to as a result of mass migration from the former colonies. However, these demarcations have been fortified with subsequent generations resulting in greater isolation. Now, the respective communities are fortifying this first by denying that there even is an issue.

Secondly, there isn't a drive to create schools along fault lines to allow greater integration from a younger age.

This situation is accentuated in Birmingham but it is prevalent throughout the country and no where is a bastion of successful progressiveness.

Communities are now reluctant to integrate and are becoming insular under the guise of maintaining the cultural identity. The push for more faith based schools in an already fragmented society will simply exacerbate the situation further. Certain community members pushing for such faith based focus even in state schools highlights the serious issues that are not being addressed.

So it took you over 20 years to finally meet people and appreciate people that were completely different to you and seeing beyond the stereotypes you had of them and they had of you but it took time. Now, do you think you would have had a better word view if you had experienced it from the age of 10, rather than 20?

It wasn't anything to do with costs and its the last thing on the minds of people wanting blood they weren't obliged to listen to said community leaders either but they did

You haven't answered how communities are specifically ensuring a lack of integration in school's how are they fortifying it? What do you mean by creating school's along fault lines to allow for integration at a younger age? What fault lines? How is the city to go about doing that? Who is responsible for a lack of it? How are communities reluctant to integrate and pushing for more faith schools?

I never had any stereotypes to begin with nor did I have a lack of appreciation for people who were different to me, in fact it's the other way round, Those whom you encounter tend to be the ones who hold stereoptypes about poor inner city folk of colour with an affiliation to a speficic religion much like yourself who seems to believe that majority of us can't integrate and how diversity doesn't help in shaping our views to be accepting of each other.

 

[miandadrules]

It wasn't anything to do with costs and its the last thing on the minds of people wanting blood they weren't obliged to listen to said community leaders either but they did

You haven't answered how communities are specifically ensuring a lack of integration in school's how are they fortifying it? What do you mean by creating school's along fault lines to allow for integration at a younger age? What fault lines? How is the city to go about doing that? Who is responsible for a lack of it? How are communities reluctant to integrate and pushing for more faith schools?

I never had any stereotypes to begin with nor did I have a lack of appreciation for people who were different to me, in fact it's the other way round, Those whom you encounter tend to be the ones who hold stereoptypes about poor inner city folk of colour with an affiliation to a speficic religion much like yourself who seems to believe that majority of us can't integrate and how diversity doesn't help in shaping our views to be accepting of each other.

I'll break this done for you.

Costs doesn't mean simply monetary. You're child being incarcerated is a cost. Your child being injured is a cost. You're business being vandalised is a cost. Your place of work being put out of business is a cost. Violence in your area is a cost to house prices and insurance. The emotional drain of living in an area of conflict is a cost. The inevitable loss of trust amongst the establishment (police, council etc..) and the residents is a cost.

And what would be the upside to this conflict?

To act as if this act was a watershed moment that has ushered any sort of ethnic harmony is beyond disingenuous.

Are the communities pushing for more integrated schools? If you are not pushing for ways change the status quo than at worst you are passively fortifying it at the very least. You can redraw catchment areas which allow for a more a diverse mix. Now that would only be feasible with schools on the periphery and have no impact in areas deeply imbedded in an ethnic ghetto.

And also factor in the impact of Teacher brain drain that occurs due to segregation, which ultimately impacts on a child's development.

What initiatives have communities truly taken to integrate rather than superficial photo-ops? Are you denying there has been a massive drive for faith-based schools, especially by the Muslim community? In an already isolated environment we are pushing even greater isolationism.

Fault lines are where two separate ghettos touch. They are pretty prevalent in areas like Aston, Handsworth, Chelmsleawood etc...

We are all responsible for the lack of integration. No one is absolved of responsibility

If you allow children to meet people from different backgrounds from a younger age

Are you saying that you have had no preconceived ideas in your entire life? Yet many others had it of you? Think about what you have just said.

What do you mean much like myself? I come from one of the most deprived backgrounds in UK and still have roots there.

Where have I said you can't integrate? I clearly stated there is an unwillingness to do so and even a basic understanding of what integration even is.

Where have I said diversity doesn't help? In fact my entire thesis is that it does and isolationism is detrimental.

 

[shaz619]

I'll break this done for you.

Costs doesn't mean simply monetary. You're child being incarcerated is a cost. Your child being injured is a cost. You're business being vandalised is a cost. Your place of work being put out of business is a cost. Violence in your area is a cost to house prices and insurance. The emotional drain of living in an area of conflict is a cost. The inevitable loss of trust amongst the establishment (police, council etc..) and the residents is a cost.

And what would be the upside to this conflict?

To act as if this act was a watershed moment that has ushered any sort of ethnic harmony is beyond disingenuous.


I don't think you are understanding my point or just for the sake of your own ego are ignoring what I am saying. Let me break it down a little bit, these community leaders right are the ones to be concerned with regards to costs right? My point is forget them, why in the blue hell would the "lads" give a damn about that or listen to them? When the trio passed away some were interviewed on the local stations and were quoted "If tariq didn't ask for peace there would have been blood" everyone was fired up to seek revenge against the afro carribean community but they didn't





Are the communities pushing for more integrated schools? If you are not pushing for ways change the status quo than at worst you are passively fortifying it at the very least. You can redraw catchment areas which allow for a more a diverse mix. Now that would only be feasible with schools on the periphery and have no impact in areas deeply imbedded in an ethnic ghetto.


What are they the justice league of brum who run the local council? What are you doing about it? Besides I am yet to see evidence of this lack of integration



And also factor in the impact of Teacher brain drain that occurs due to segregation, which ultimately impacts on a child's development.


That isn't the communities fault

What initiatives have communities truly taken to integrate rather than superficial photo-ops? Are you denying there has been a massive drive for faith-based schools, especially by the Muslim community? In an already isolated environment we are pushing even greater isolationism.


I've seen no drive for faith based school i know of two or three in the city, there are quiet a few catholic ones around Edgbaston as well I think they hav been around for a while


Fault lines are where two separate ghettos touch. They are pretty prevalent in areas like Aston, Handsworth, Chelmsleawood etc...

In recent times there has been little gang warfare in Aston, Handsworth etc although recently the chavs have been causing trouble in CW, compared to early 2000's there has been a decline when it comes to these alleged ghettos




We are all responsible for the lack of integration. No one is absolved of responsibility

If you allow children to meet people from different backgrounds from a younger age


People will only meet folk who attend their school, is it there fault or there parents that a rich kid in solihull isn't there? In me school in particular it had a great mix of europeans, asians , africans and jamaicans




Are you saying that you have had no preconceived ideas in your entire life? Yet many others had it of you? Think about what you have just said.








What do you mean much like myself? I come from one of the most deprived backgrounds in UK and still have roots there.

Where have I said you can't integrate? I clearly stated there is an unwillingness to do so and even a basic understanding of what integration even is.

Where have I said diversity doesn't help? In fact my entire thesis is that it does and isolationism is detrimental.


You seem to single out a certain community in particular so am glad you asked this question because you can think about why these others are not judged in the same light, our folk are a lot more tolerant and accepting given how we're judged with regards to various stereotypes so from a young age why would we look at the world and all the people in it in a way we wouldn't want to be looked at ourselves?

Apologise for my replies to each bit not being in bold as am replying from my mobile but hope its still clear

 

[Donal Cozzie]

If Europe is a post-religious society then it is about time the English give back Northern Ireland to [MENTION=136108]Donal Cozzie[/MENTION] and his mates.

The Northern Irish conflict has never been about religion. Its a common misconception

 

[endymion248]

The Northern Irish conflict has never been about religion. Its a common misconception

I don't believe in the immigrant theory, there is no genetical or linguistic difference between both sides of the conflict.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

I don't believe in the immigrant theory, there is no genetical or linguistic difference between both sides of the conflict.

Still wasn't religious. The Plantations originally occurred due to the trouble the Irish were causing, and the Brits wanted to replace them with loyal subjects. It just so happened the religions also differed and continued to do so throughout the conflict, really it was political.

There are some linguistic differences btw, while both languages are uncommon to hear, the latter especially so, there does exist the native Gaeilge language and the imported Ulster Scots language which the loyalists claim a hold on.

 

[endymion248]

Still wasn't religious. The Plantations originally occurred due to the trouble the Irish were causing, and the Brits wanted to replace them with loyal subjects. It just so happened the religions also differed and continued to do so throughout the conflict, really it was political.

There are some linguistic differences btw, while both languages are uncommon to hear, the latter especially so, there does exist the native Gaeilge language and the imported Ulster Scots language which the loyalists claim a hold on.

The language argument is rhetorical and so is the difference between an Ulster Scot and a Northern Irish. It's the religion which allowed them to retain distinct identities and all the political baggage they carry (which you mentionned).

 

[miandadrules]

Apologise for my replies to each bit not being in bold as am replying from my mobile but hope its still clear

1. Once again you are taking an extremely parochial view. The event concerning Tariq's son wasn't an isolated flash incident, it was a culmination of days of unrest throughout the country leading to intense media, police and public scrutiny. To say that especially in hierarchical society such as the British-Pakistani community, the influence of elder members and extra police scrutiny had no bearing on the behaviour of the younger generations is way off the mark. To prove so you'd at least have to show evidence where they had behaved in direct contrast from the wishes of the society in the past.

But lets for arguments sake take your narrative. What of the underlying issues that led to the conflict have been identified and worked on, let alone resolved?

2. So for a community to work towards it's betterment it has to be the Justice League? Is it a justice league when we raise money for a Mosque? Are they the Justice League when we raise funds for a community cause?

3. Lets just say again for arguments sake, I am doing nothing at all. Does this mean that problems don't exist?

4. There is plenty of evidence regarding the lack of integration but just like the article I posted, you seem to dismiss it because you don't like it's conclusions, without even providing any counter-proof. Unfortunately, we can't draw conclusions based on your anecdotal evidence or simply ignore what offends your sensibilities.

5. Teacher brain drain isn't the communities fault but the community certainly has to do deal with the consequences. What right do we have to sabotage the educational development of future generations due to our negligence to address issues?

6, The drive for more faith based schools isn't based on your anecdotal evidence. A drive is the desire for more, regardless of what is in place now.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/nov/28/muslim-schools-growth

7. Please provide evidence for your assertion that ethnic differences have declined. Or are we to rely simply on your word and at best flimsy anecdotal evidence?

8. It is all our responsibility that every sector of society has a greater appreciation of the other. Please give a breakdown of the percentages with evidence at your school and then we can discuss this further.

9. Where have I singled out a single community? I have maintained throughout that it is an issue throughout all communities. Have I even once mentioned it was due to one community? It wouldn't be a problem if it was just a single community, yet you have automatically jumped to this conclusion, why?

Now, lets also look at the manner in which you have framed your posts.

"Well I've never felt that during my entire life time so that article is a load of garbage for me"

"I think it exists on a big scale mostly for people who worship the white man and want others to get in bed with the white man like them."

"There isn't a place in this country which is 100% perfect but one of the biggest issue is the bigoted and narrow minded coconut army"

"I also feel that when you go beyond the city no one can relate to you better then a person of any colour from where you originate..."

"I did find that people couldn't relate to me as much given that they'd not come across anyone quiet like my background and personally being someone that didn't drink or go out sure I wasn't going to relate to those who did but that's not limited to my ethnic origin or religion because that would be a narrow minded view on ones trait because there are those whom are of a different ethnicity/religion who are in the same boat as you who don't drink or go clubbing, it's not something which needs to be done in order to integrate. Over time I've come to develop good relationship with such folk given that I share a house with those who drink, go out; they respect that I don't and I don't have an issue with their personal choices."

"I never had any stereotypes to begin with nor did I have a lack of appreciation for people who were different to me, in fact it's the other way round, Those whom you encounter tend to be the ones who hold stereoptypes about poor inner city folk of colour with an affiliation to a speficic religion much like yourself who seems to believe that majority of us can't integrate and how diversity doesn't help in shaping our views to be accepting of each other."

"In recent times there has been little gang warfare in Aston, Handsworth etc although recently the chavs have been causing trouble in CW, compared to early 2000's there has been a decline when it comes to these alleged ghettos"

"You seem to single out a certain community in particular so am glad you asked this question because you can think about why these others are not judged in the same light, our folk are a lot more tolerant and accepting given how we're judged with regards to various stereotypes so from a young age why would we look at the world and all the people in it in a way we wouldn't want to be looked at ourselves?"

Yet you still maintain that you have no preconceived notions nor stereotypes. You continue to maintain that you are always the victim but never the perpetrator. The problem is, for the overwhelming majority of people their prejudice isn't ever conceptualised, they never question it and accept that this is simply how the world is.

Unfortunately, your responses are drenched in rank tribalism, which is what the core issue is.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I guess slavery isn't a crime nor a safety issue for some.

People choose slavery now so it's legitimate.

 

[miandadrules]

People choose slavery now so it's legitimate.

Who choses slavery?

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] Would you say all the brit pak community in particular in brum have displayed an unwillingness to integrate with different communities, would you also blame the brit pak community for the lack versatility when it comes to social class in school's? would say we generally grow up with stereotypes towards different communities and are generally intolerant towards one another?

Would you put down majority of the issues in our city in terms of violence and intolerance due to the unwillingness of the Brit pak community to integrate or are the issues in our city are lot deeper then that e.g social issues and all? Also these alleged problems we've have orchestrated with regards to a lack of willingness to integrate, surely the privileged community are immune from the same labels

 

[KingKhanWC]

Who choses slavery?

I assumed you were reffering to the thousands of labourers in the UAE.