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Ashes 4th Test | Aug 6 | England thrash Australia by an innings and 78 runs

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Convict said:
Does it matter?

No way of winning regardless
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I don't know whether you download the BBC Radio Test Match Special show.

I was listening to Michael Vaughan the other day, who was talking about the need to wound the opposition even when you're losing.

If the Aussies had declared at 5-21 they might have hoped to have England at 40-5 at lunch.

There's a long, hard road back from that position - you could hope to knock England over by mid-afternoon for 140, and bat again just 120 behind.

But from 55 all out there's just no way back.
 
Big Mac said:
It doesn't matter who we pick, none of our players can play decent swing bowling.
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You need to do what you did in order to win the series in England in 1987 and 1992.

Javed Miandad and Imran Khan were the only batsmen who had much experience at First Class level in England.

So the BCCP - the predecessor of the PCB - ensured that you arrived 6 weeks before the start of the Test series and played five (yes, FIVE) three day matches against English county teams before the First Test.

The 1987 Pakistanis ended up playing a total of TWELVE three day matches against English counties.

The 1992 Pakistanis ended up playing a total of TWELVE three day matches against English counties.

If the 2016 ones do the same, you win. If they don't, your batting falls over and you lose.
 
Man Of Steel said:
Just tell me honestly, why are the subcontinent posters riding English bandwagon? Why so much excitement for mediocre team who got thrashed 5-0 last time in Ashes encounter? Atleast Australia has already won a test by huge margin, something Englishmen weren't able to do!
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I could careless about the result, but for sake of test cricket i wanted better competition.
 
Like the idea from Ricky Ponting of letting the visiting team decide wether to bat or bowl first. Home sides win most of the times in cricket.
 
Man Of Steel said:
Just tell me honestly, why are the subcontinent posters riding English bandwagon? Why so much excitement for mediocre team who got thrashed 5-0 last time in Ashes encounter? Atleast Australia has already won a test by huge margin, something Englishmen weren't able to do!
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Australia looses to spin and they loose to good swing. Also who you to tell everyone who they should support? You sound a bit ********.
 
Watching most of the wickets fall today most have been down to poor selection and poor technic more than anything else.
 
OK.

I don't normally do this but I'm calling the result: Broad has just regained the Ashes.
 
Junaids said:
You need to do what you did in order to win the series in England in 1987 and 1992.

Javed Miandad and Imran Khan were the only batsmen who had much experience at First Class level in England.

So the BCCP - the predecessor of the PCB - ensured that you arrived 6 weeks before the start of the Test series and played five (yes, FIVE) three day matches against English county teams before the First Test.

The 1987 Pakistanis ended up playing a total of TWELVE three day matches against English counties.

The 1992 Pakistanis ended up playing a total of TWELVE three day matches against English counties.

If the 2016 ones do the same, you win. If they don't, your batting falls over and you lose.
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our A team will be in the country before the main side turns up. I suspect shan masood and some other full timers might get into the "A" side..hopefully we get some proper warm ups.
 
Junaids said:
By the way, dear Pakistani friends, just make sure that you don't even think of picking Hafeez and Shehzad as your openers there in 11 months time.[/QUOTE

Lol I was thinking the same, I can already see Anderson and Broad tormenting us in 11 months time, however it would be a sight to watch Amir and Asif on those lively pitches if they return back.
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The last wicket partnership has lasted longer than all of Australia's specialist batsmen combined.
 
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Is ENG trying to play the old tactics? Bowl tight to tail, but don't get them out - until the wicket dries out?

Joking - ENG has Berbi at No. 10, Wood at 9 (or other way) & Ali at 8; I guess they 'll hope to bat once here.
 
The sun comes out just in time for England's innings, that dastardly ECB are doctoring the weather as well :))
 
Aussies 60 all out :)))

Broad 8/15 what a performance
 
Back to my "declare at 21-5" strategy.

Australia lasted 18.3 overs. And the sun has come out now.

England will only face 3 overs before lunch, and that's a much easier task to survive than if they had had to bat 20 overs before lunch.
 
Man Of Steel said:
Just for once tell me, whats your fetish with long strings of text?
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Why are you bothered - don't read.

I can sum up you level when you think that this ENG lineup "doesn't have the depth in their middle and lower middle order", hardly matters to me what you think or post.
 
Junaids said:
Sure, and the home team almost always smashes the tourists.

Pakistan will only win in England, Australia, South Africa and NZ if they give the batsmen enough First Class matches to adapt their techniques.
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Nobody has that many warmup matches so there's no point suggesting it as a plan, it's impossible.

The only way Pakistani batsmen will get those games under their belts is by playing county cricket and let's be honest, which county is going to want the likes of Umar Akmal for anything other than some T20 Mickey Mouse slogging?
 
You know you've played bloody awful when they play The Script over your innings highlights.

Wonder if they'll get Radiohead for Aus's 2nd innings
 
WC-Passion said:
I didn't expect this. Did you?
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No, I didn't.

As Junaids says - modern batting is rubbish. These guys can clear the pickets on flat decks, but they have no clue when there is a little bit of movement by a bowling side which is doing the basics and nothing more. They have no idea what to leave and what to play at and they have massive gates between bat and pad.
 
Big Mac said:
Nobody has that many warmup matches so there's no point suggesting it as a plan, it's impossible.

The only way Pakistani batsmen will get those games under their belts is by playing county cricket and let's be honest, which county is going to want the likes of Umar Akmal for anything other than some T20 Mickey Mouse slogging?
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Foxes game U.Akmal an FC contract so your arguement is invalid. He had to leave for the CPL though.
 
I explained the reason for this in my thread "Development of batsmen in the modern game"
 
Extras is the only Aussie to emerge from that with any credit, a battling 14* while everyone else collapsed around him.
 
Robert said:
No, I didn't.

As Junaids says - modern batting is rubbish. These guys can clear the pickets on flat decks, but they have no clue when there is a little bit of movement by a bowling side which is doing the basics and nothing more. They have no idea what to leave and what to play at and they have massive gates between bat and pad.
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It's kind of ridiculous when you consider how batting friendly the game has become, and still these massacres happen.
 
WC-Passion said:
Foxes game U.Akmal an FC contract so your arguement is invalid. He had to leave for the CPL though.
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Are you sure it for first class cricket or was it T20? The fact that he left England to go play CPL doesn't invalidate my argument either, he had a chance to bat in English conditions like you want and didn't take advantage.
 
WC-Passion said:
It's kind of ridiculous when you consider how batting friendly the game has become, and still these massacres happen.
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The first is the reason for the latter.

Players get too optimsed and get away with too much stuff because of the first so when something bowler friendly happens they get dominated.

It's why the idea that the modern player is better than his 70s and 80s counterparts is a joke. Sure when it's flat they score faster but that's it
 
Big Mac said:
Are you sure it for first class cricket or was it T20? The fact that he left England to go play CPL doesn't invalidate my argument either, he had a chance to bat in English conditions like you want and didn't take advantage.
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It was FC cricket. I promise.

And yes it was disappointing that he left for the CPL considering he did jack squat there. But he just wanted to be loyal to his contract and he didn't know that they would give him an FC contract so he played as-long as he could. (aka 1 game)
 
Man Of Steel said:
Don't get too ahead of yourself, we all know which English side turn up when the heat is on (btw there is only one English side and that is not good enough)
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OK. I must be possessed by one of your extra-dimensional aliens today. Better get a quick exorcism in.
 
Convict said:
The first is the reason for the latter.

Players get too optimsed and get away with too much stuff because of the first so when something bowler friendly happens they get dominated.

It's why the idea that the modern player is better than his 70s and 80s counterparts is a joke. Sure when it's flat they score faster but that's it
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Never thought about it like that.

I guess the ATG's will stay ATG's with these clowns playing the game. :))
 
Convict said:
It's why the idea that the modern player is better than his 70s and 80s counterparts is a joke. Sure when it's flat they score faster but that's it
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Yep. Think back to Headingley '81 where a weak Aussie batting line got 400 on a track which was greener than this and with variable bounce too, against Willis and Botham who would walk into this current team.
 
Robert said:
No, I didn't.

As Junaids says - modern batting is rubbish. These guys can clear the pickets on flat decks, but they have no clue when there is a little bit of movement by a bowling side which is doing the basics and nothing more. They have no idea what to leave and what to play at and they have massive gates between bat and pad.
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shocking techniques..i emane voges dismissal was a disgrace..i can understand a young guy from say multan having a problem on a pitch like this but someone like rogers and voges? cmon..
 
WC-Passion said:
It's kind of ridiculous when you consider how batting friendly the game has become, and still these massacres happen.
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But that is exactly WHY these massacres happen, and indeed why an accurate but military-medium paced bowler like Vernon Philander has had a career.

Too many batsmen with good hand-eye coordination like Steve Smith or Shikhar Dhawan and Dave Warner can rack up quick runs on pitches where the ball reliably fails to deviate off the seam when it hits the wicket.

And venal cricket boards and ground proprietors which want matches to last 5 days happily order the groundsmen to shave all the grass off the pitch.

But Steve Smith has shown in the two Tests in this series in which there was some live green grass on the pitch that his technique is inadequate to survive against the moving ball.

A surfeit of ODI and T20 has ruined these batsmen.
 
England 8/0 they should try and score as quickly as possible and declare today and maybe get the Aussie back into bat tonight.
 
I think, AUS is extremely successful playing a different brand of cricket in ODI & they are trying to follow the same pattern in longer format as well, which is back firing on a slightly alien condition - be it in UK, UAE or IND. It's not only on seeming wicket, last year on slow turners at UAE they kept a RR of 4, but couldn't bat out 4 sessions in any of the innings (5 in total, if we take the A Side match).

Tour preparation definitely has a positive impact as [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] said, but here I don't think is applicable - Aussies are in UK for over a month now & this is their 6th or 7th FC match. Modern game has definitely changed the approach of batting, more than technique, but I think it's more of Aussie batsmen's failure to cope with a bit of movement rather than anything else - last year Rahne played a gem of a knock when condition (& bowling) was arguably more testing.

I think, ENG 'll bat well here, Aussies are a bit Hit the Deck type pacers - Josh should bowl well here but he had a poor last match on similar surface.
 
England openers can just bide their time and wait for bad balls here... 9/0
 
Junaids said:
But that is exactly WHY these massacres happen, and indeed why an accurate but military-medium paced bowler like Vernon Philander has had a career.

Too many batsmen with good hand-eye coordination like Steve Smith or Shikhar Dhawan and Dave Warner can rack up quick runs on pitches where the ball reliably fails to deviate off the seam when it hits the wicket.

And venal cricket boards and ground proprietors which want matches to last 5 days happily order the groundsmen to shave all the grass off the pitch.

But Steve Smith has shown in the two Tests in this series in which there was some live green grass on the pitch that his technique is inadequate to survive against the moving ball.

A surfeit of ODI and T20 has ruined these batsmen.
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Nah. Smith was always a middle order batsman.
 
Lyth was outscoring over half the Aussie team 2 balls into the innings.
 
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Amjid Javed said:
England openers can just bide their time and wait for bad balls here... 9/0
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It's what the Aussies should have done. You don't go after the ball when the ball is swinging and seaming, you want to leave as much as possible and let the bowlers bring the ball to you.

Cook is good at doing that, if he's playing well he doesn't go after anything and waits for the bowlers to bowl straighter and straighter until he can just tuck the ball off his pads into the legside.
 
the Great Khan said:
shocking techniques..i emane voges dismissal was a disgrace..i can understand a young guy from say multan having a problem on a pitch like this but someone like rogers and voges? cmon..
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Rogers spent three seasons at Middlesex and would have seen wickets like this. He might still get a ton in the second dig.
 
Big Mac said:
It's what the Aussies should have done. You don't go after the ball when the ball is swinging and seaming, you want to leave as much as possible and let the bowlers bring the ball to you.

Cook is good at doing that, if he's playing well he doesn't go after anything and waits for the bowlers to bowl straighter and straighter until he can just tuck the ball off his pads into the legside.
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This. Throwing your bat at everything is just ridiculous in these conditions. Many of the deliveries could have been left quite easily
 
They should have picked Siddle instead of Starc. He and Hazlewood could cause problems on this deck.
 
OMG I just tuned into the match. Australian batting looks like a thin piece of glass. There is only one instance in history of a team winning a match after being shot for 60 in the first innings. And that happened in 1887, one hundred and twenty eight years ago. Australia once successfully defended a first innings total of 63 in 1882. The probability of draw based on past history is less than 1%.
 
England are going to get 600 if they want. With the sun out and grass fading and the Aussies having zero morale, the sky is the limit.
 
"Number of balls in which Australia lost their first 5 wickets, the fewest balls in which any team has lost 5 wickets (since 2003)"

25
 
Robert said:
Rogers spent three seasons at Middlesex and would have seen wickets like this. He might still get a ton in the second dig.
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True but may be too late for them. England caught amazingly well and braod just put it in a nice area and got some good rhytmn going..nothing too spectacular just good test bowling. Once again proving the superiority of the test game..with the proliferation of flat pitches everywhere we are now seeing aussie,eng and saffer batsman make the same errors that sub continental bastman used to make when facing the moving ball..
 
Man Of Steel said:
You're giving me a headache with those stats, let the first innings pan out, then we can talk about that stat, I don't trust Englishmen, 2-3 quick wickets and they'll back to their mediocre best.
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Strange things have happened in cricket, but recovery from 60 all out on first day morning is a big ask even under the esoteric ways of cricket.
 
Convict said:
Nah. Smith was always a middle order batsman.
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I think you've just hit the nail on the head. I hadn't thought of that.

In Australia and South Africa they use the appalling Kookaburra ball. The seam is smaller than the one of the Duke ball and there is a lot less varnish on it. So by 20 overs it is just a soft, useless ball which makes every bowler of below McGrath/Warne/Gillespie class into a pie-chucker until the second new ball comes around.

It's only recently that Steve Smith has moved up to number 3. When he batted at 4 or 5 he only really needed to play against the worn-out Kookaburra, because he rarely had to face many of the 20 overs in which it was moving and bouncing. Even if he came in at 3-60 after 20 overs, he then got 60 overs to cash in against a tired attack with a useless dead Kookaburra.

And Smith is a batsman whose technique is perfectly optimised for limited overs cricket or to bat against a worn-out Kookaburra. Even if he then has to face the second new ball, he has got his eye in and the bowlers have already bowled themselves into the ground for 20 overs.

Great call, [MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION]. I hadn't really thought of Smith like that before.
 
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Nasser on the pitch right now, said that last year's dead track had 5mm of grass. Today's "doctored" pitch was a veritable jungle with a gigantic 8mm of grass on the surface.
 
This is the kind of pitch where Hazlewood needs to make his presence felt, if he can find a groove on or outside off stump then he has the potential to be the most dangerous Aussie bowler this session.

Having said that, Mitch will probably come in and take 5 for 11 :))
 
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got to agree with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] about the ball. The kookaburra ball is a disgrace and we really should look at changing the ball in int cricket worldwide!!

ahh I see mitch is back to bowling his up down short stuff..man i never see him swing the ball alot or bowl reverse swing..
 
Aussie bowlers showing no menace on the same surface so far, still dont understand why siddle wasnt recalled for this test.
 
Amjid Javed said:
Aussie bowlers showing no menace on the same surface so far, still dont understand why siddle wasnt recalled for this test.
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doubt he would have made a difference..suddenly aussies looking like a pretty ordinary test side..there for the taking!!
 
Aussies trying to bowl wicket taking deliveries instead of hitting a nice length on or just outside off stump and the result is straight deliveries that are easy to flick off the pads.

No patience, lots of desperation, like the Aussie batsmen this morning. They need to calm down and let the pitch do the work.
 
If at end of the series england win 3-1 or 4-1 it will look strange after the 1st two tests where series was 1-1 and looked competative.
 
Look at Hazlewood for example, he's bowled what, two or three attempted yorkers in the last five or six deliveries?

Not one of the Aussie wickets fell to a ball that full, yet here he is trying to produce a magic delivery on a surface where you don't need to do that.
 
the Great Khan said:
doubt he would have made a difference..suddenly aussies looking like a pretty ordinary test side..there for the taking!!
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I've been arguing for a year that Dave Warner and maybe Steve Smith are the only two Australians who would get into the New Zealand Tests side.

The current composite Test side would be:

1. Warner (AU)
2. Latham
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. McCullum (c)
6. Anderson
7. Neesham
8. Watling
9. Craig
10. Southee
11. Boult

If you wanted one less batter you might go for Mitch Johnson ahead of Corey Anderson.
 
Big Mac said:
Aussies trying to bowl wicket taking deliveries instead of hitting a nice length on or just outside off stump and the result is straight deliveries that are easy to flick off the pads.

No patience, lots of desperation, like the Aussie batsmen this morning. They need to calm down and let the pitch do the work.
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Excellent post, Australia just trying to always play ultra fast test cricket and trying to make something happen every delivery wether they are batting or bowling and in the end you cant play cricket like that sometimes you have to be attritional at times.
 
Big Mac said:
Look at Hazlewood for example, he's bowled what, two or three attempted yorkers in the last five or six deliveries?

Not one of the Aussie wickets fell to a ball that full, yet here he is trying to produce a magic delivery on a surface where you don't need to do that.
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I was howled down on the earlier thread for saying that Hazlewood's limitations are being exposed in this series.

And one of them seems to be that he has the cricketing brain of Umar Akmal or Phil Tufnell. He has a lot of ability, but both him and Starc clearly can't work out their own games or assess the state of play. They both need to be told exactly what to do by someone older and smarter than they are.
 
Man Of Steel said:
Such doctored pitches should be completely banned in international cricket, this shift the advantage completely in hosts favor, this is a farce.
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I think it's the best Test wicket I've seen for ages. Even better than Edgbaston. Right up there with Cape Town.
 
Man Of Steel said:
Such doctored pitches should be completely banned in international cricket, this shift the advantage completely in hosts favor, this is a farce.
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It's not doctored, it's a perfectly normal English wicket. These Australians lack the understanding of how to bat and bowl on it. Put Alderman on this deck and England would be in bother. Or, y'know, Siddle even.
 
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