Can Dale Steyn ever match the greatness of Wasim Akram?

[Sidilicious]

Steyn averages over 27 against Australia. You can try to sugarcoat it as much as you want, but the fact of the matter is that this is almost 5 runs greater than his career average. This simply suggests that he was below par against the dominant sides and could have feasted on weaker sides. If this was a one-off, I would be willing to discard it as an anomaly. However, He also averages 32.63 against England. That is simply pathetic for a player who you are desperately trying to compare to the Great Wasim Akram.Having checked the sample size for his matches against England in order to find a reason for this woeful bowling average, it was accumulated in 20 innings so cannot be excused as an outlier. There is no way around this! Against the most dominant sides of Steyn's era, he has fallen short. Wasim has fared far better against the respective dominant sides Of his era. This is why the stats are misleading. Steyn's poor performance against the truly dominant sides suggest that he has feasted upon the weaker sides. That is the reality and it is why you must not just blindly look at stats when desperately trying to compare Steyn to Wasim.

There is no two ways around it pal. He simply has failed to bring his A game against the dominant sides and onto the World Stage. As I said before...Steyn is a superb bowler. He is just not as good as Wasim. But that is no shame since only one or two were. However, Steyn has not retired yet so of he is able to finally perform against the dominant sides of his era, show quality on the World Stage, and improve on his poor ODI form, he may be comparable to Wasim. For now, he remains on the level below.

In order to see if Steyn has bowled well or poorly, you should compare his average with other bowlers in that era. His own average doesn't mean much, as the average runs scored per wicket might be much higher in Aus than other nation.

 

[CricFan007]

Without going into statistics, I think Wasim is far greater than Steyn. Variation and fear he created in batsman is unparalleled.

I have seen so many times batsman have hit Styen like a toddler...never ever seen that happened to Wasim..that just shows the quality difference.

Point is wrong comparison! There is no one in today's cricket will even come half way to Wasim's achievement or skills...

 

[Hitman]

Without going into statistics, I think Wasim is far greater than Steyn. Variation and fear he created in batsman is unparalleled.

I have seen so many times batsman have hit Styen like a toddler...never ever seen that happened to Wasim..that just shows the quality difference.

Point is wrong comparison! There is no one in today's cricket will even come half way to Wasim's achievement or skills...

In that case why does Steyn have a better average and a far better SR than Akram. Any explanations?

 

[IndianWillow]

Steyn's consistency to maintain a very high standards are similar to Marshall, McGrath and Ambrose. Their graphs will look similar.

Yep. Steyn's career is not over, but I think he is top five of all time already. He may finish in top three by the time he hangs his boots.
I personally don't think there has been a bowler like Steyn apart from Marshall. Simply because bowling in the modern era is a notch tougher compared to the 80s and 90s and most legends of the 80s and 90s would struggle to average sub 25 over 400 wickets if they bowled now.

Steyn's rating points are surreal, like Kapil Dev's ODI allrounder rating (which stayed above 550 points for most of his career while his rival's peaks rarely crossed 500) - it stayed high up throughout his career, with no discernible peaks or troughs. Steyn is the Bradman of bowling.

 

[IndianWillow]

Without going into statistics, I think Wasim is far greater than Steyn. Variation and fear he created in batsman is unparalleled.

I have seen so many times batsman have hit Styen like a toddler...never ever seen that happened to Wasim..that just shows the quality difference.

Point is wrong comparison! There is no one in today's cricket will even come half way to Wasim's achievement or skills...

Wow, that is an exact replica of a Sachinista.

 

[SL_Fan]

I would rate Wasim ahead of Steyn. Steyn has phenomenal numbers no doubt but numbers are not every thing. He's brilliant with the new ball but once the shine wears off his threat level goes down drastically. Whereas Wasim could make both the new and the older ball talk like no other I’ve seen. His numbers don’t do justice to just how skilful he was with the ball (both the read cherry and the white ball). An absolute magician.

 

[Bilal7]

In that case why does Steyn have a better average and a far better SR than Akram. Any explanations?

Bowling in a pace bowling paradise like South Africa, for 50% of your matches, does that to you.

Had Steyn been born in one of the subcon countries, he would have been lucky to be a fast bowler, forget about being a legendary one.

Batsmen from the subcon are inferior to batsmen outside of it, due to batting in friendly conditions, most of the time. The opposite is true of pace bowlers.

 

[Bilal7]

In order to see if Steyn has bowled well or poorly, you should compare his average with other bowlers in that era. His own average doesn't mean much, as the average runs scored per wicket might be much higher in Aus than other nation.

So we should compare him with the great Peter Siddle, Ishant Sharma and Rahat Ali?

 

[WrexEverything]

Bowling in a pace bowling paradise like South Africa, for 50% of your matches, does that to you.

Had Steyn been born in one of the subcon countries, he would have been lucky to be a fast bowler, forget about being a legendary one.

Oh really? Steyn's stats in the subcontinent:

18 matches, 87 wickets, avg: 22.75, SR: 39 .

Your argument doesn't hold up.

 

[soso_killer]

Bowling in a pace bowling paradise like South Africa, for 50% of your matches, does that to you.

Had Steyn been born in one of the subcon countries, he would have been lucky to be a fast bowler, forget about being a legendary one.

Batsmen from the subcon are inferior to batsmen outside of it, due to batting in friendly conditions, most of the time. The opposite is true of pace bowlers.

How many wickets has Steyn taken outside SA at what SR & AVG?
IIRC Steyn has nearly 100 wickets in Asian conditions at a phenomenal SR and average which renders your whole point useless.
Again no fast bowler in history has taken more wickets than Steyn in those conditions (of all those from outside the subcontinent)

 

[Ruri]

This is utterly silly.

Steyn will surpass Wasim Akram. Steyn has as many 5fers, 10fers and more 4fers as Akram in 33 fewer innings.

Steyn has a far and away better Average and Strike Rate. Steyn averages 22.75 in Asia (which is below Akram's overall average).

All of this in an era of flat tracks and batting decks, where the next best bowlers of his generation are Anderson and Johnson who average 28 and 29.

Steyn struggles a bit against England, granted, that happens. Akram himself struggled against England as well, and wasn't setting the world on fire against South Africa.

Steyn will overtake Akram's wicket tally soon enough. If you don't look at the stats through green tinted glasses, as a neutral, I would pick Steyn over Akram easy. Quite honestly, only Marshall can be certainly considered greater, and McGrath just maybe.

 

[Buffet]

Oh really? Steyn's stats in the subcontinent:

18 matches, 87 wickets, avg: 22.75, SR: 39 .

Your argument doesn't hold up.

How many wickets has Steyn taken outside SA at what SR & AVG?
IIRC Steyn has nearly 100 wickets in Asian conditions at a phenomenal SR and average which renders your whole point useless.
Again no fast bowler in history has taken more wickets than Steyn in those conditions (of all those from outside the subcontinent)

We can look at it this way.

For Wasim we can keep helpful conditions of SA in his record and remove unhelpful conditions of Pakistan from his record
For Steyn, we can remove the helpful conditions of SA from his record and keep unhelpful conditions of Pakistan from his record

End result - Steyn still has a better record than Wasim

Most ATG bowlers develop their games to suite home conditions. Wasim and Steyn are not exceptions but Steyn has done very well outside of home to not entertain this line of thoughts.

 

[Buffet]

This is utterly silly.

Steyn will surpass Wasim Akram. Steyn has as many 5fers, 10fers and more 4fers as Akram in 33 fewer innings.

Steyn has a far and away better Average and Strike Rate. Steyn averages 22.75 in Asia (which is below Akram's overall average).

All of this in an era of flat tracks and batting decks, where the next best bowlers of his generation are Anderson and Johnson who average 28 and 29.

Steyn struggles a bit against England, granted, that happens. Akram himself struggled against England as well, and wasn't setting the world on fire against South Africa.

Steyn will overtake Akram's wicket tally soon enough. If you don't look at the stats through green tinted glasses, as a neutral, I would pick Steyn over Akram easy. Quite honestly, only Marshall can be certainly considered greater, and McGrath just maybe.

It will be interesting to see where Steyn gets ranked by fans worldwide when he hangs up his boot. I will wait till he retires to put an exact order for him but he is right up there with the best in history.

 

[ChachaCricket]

It will be interesting to see where Steyn gets ranked by fans worldwide when he hangs up his boot. I will wait till he retires to put an exact order for him but he is right up there with the best in history.

Steyn's career is pretty much over. Where do you rank Wasim?

 

[WrexEverything]

Steyn almost has as many wickets as Wasim in 25 fewer tests. His rate of wicket taking is phenomenal. Only Hadlee and Lillee are comparable, and even Hadlee's WPM is helped by the lack of other world class bowlers in his lineup.

 

[ChachaCricket]

Lol getting tired of this flat pitches bakwas. This is a phenomenon that's only started recently and did not affect Steyn for majority of his career.

 

[ChachaCricket]

Steyn almost has as many wickets as Wasim in 25 fewer tests. His rate of wicket taking is phenomenal. Only Hadlee and Lillee are comparable, and even Hadlee's WPM is helped by the lack of other world class bowlers in his lineup.

Steyn didn't have Waqar on the other end. You can stop with this tripe now. Actually watch the game, not just read stats off of cricinfo statsguru.

 

[WrexEverything]

Steyn didn't have Waqar on the other end. You can stop with this tripe now. Actually watch the game, not just read stats off of cricinfo statsguru.

You can quite simply walk away from this thread if you want to be a senstive douchebag. My arguments are logical, and calling them tripe without backing that up is just going to make you look silly

Now, sure, he doesn't have Waqar, but he has two very good bowlers in Philander and Morkel. And name me one other fast bowler apart from Steyn, Hadlee and Lillee who have over 5 wickets per match. This is very unique and deserves pointing out.

 

[ChachaCricket]

I'd predict Steyn's SR to be around 47-50 in older eras. Part of the reason for his low SR is because the game's played at a faster pace and lower quality opposition. Four of the greats of the modern era in Smith, Amla, AB, Kallis were actually part of his own team.

 

[ChachaCricket]

You can quite simply walk away from this thread if you want to be a senstive douchebag. My arguments are logical, and calling them tripe without backing that up is just going to make you look silly

Now, sure, he doesn't have Waqar, but he has two very good bowlers in Philander and Morkel. And name me one other fast bowler apart from Steyn, Hadlee and Lillee who have over 5 wickets per match. This is very unique and deserves pointing out.

Morkel and Philander are good supporting bowlers. Steyn's the main wicket taking option just like Lillee and Hadlee were. He's obviously going to have higher wickets per game.

 

[Chrish]

Wickets have gotten flat since majority of last decade.. Look at WACA in Australia. Pitches in Windies were more conductive to pace bowling in 90s. NZ wickets too..

It's also the size of the grounds that differ compared to past. Whenever I see the old highlights, grounds particularly in Aus and WI sometimes didn't even have any rope so ball had to go all the way for a boundary. Unlike today grounds have rope pulled in what seems like a half-way through.

 

[WrexEverything]

I'd predict Steyn's SR to be around 47-50 in older eras. Part of the reason for his low SR is because the game's played at a faster pace and lower quality opposition. Four of the greats of the modern era in Smith, Amla, AB, Kallis were actually part of his own team.

Lol, again this nonsense. Some of the lineups Steyn has bowled to:

Ind: Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Sachin, VVS. Best lineup in India's history
NZ: Williamson, Taylor, Watling. NZ's best middle order since 70s and 80s
SL: Dilshan, Mahela, Sanga, Mathews. Easily the best SL lineup ever.
Eng: Strauss, Cook, Trott, KP, Prior. One of the best England lineups in decades
Aus: Hayden, Warner, Ponting, Clarke, Hussey. Awesome lineup again


If you want to make points in Wasim's favour, fine. Donot resort to flat out lies. These are all great batting lineups. And is hardly "low-quality" opposition.

 

[WrexEverything]

Wickets have gotten flat since majority of last decade.. Look at WACA in Australia. Pitches in Windies were more conductive to pace bowling in 90s. NZ wickets too..

It's also the size of the grounds that differ compared to past. Whenever I see the old highlights, grounds particularly in Aus and WI didn't have any rope so ball had to go all the way for a boundary. Unlike today grounds have roped pulled in what seems like a half-way through.

Partly true. But WI even in 80s and 90s had many small grounds. Like Antigua which had it's boundaries pulled in a lot. NZ too.

 

[Buffet]

Steyn's career is pretty much over. Where do you rank Wasim?

Last time I had put my top 5 pacers in history in PP, I had Wasim there. It keeps changing a bit with time but I am sure that it happens with pretty much everyone. I didn't consider Steyn then and I will still wait for him to hang his boot. I am aware of Wasim not getting number 1 rank in his career and all that but I have seen him bowl in lots of matches in both formats. I have argued both sides on different forums

I used to wake up to watch Pakistani matches in 90s and that was due to Wasim.

 

[WrexEverything]

Morkel and Philander are good supporting bowlers. Steyn's the main wicket taking option just like Lillee and Hadlee were. He's obviously going to have higher wickets per game.

Yes, that's partly true. You're right about Morkel. But Philander is as prolific as Steyn in SA conditions.

Anyway how do you explain that apart from Steyn, Hadlee, and Lillee, no other bowler has that many wickets per game.

 

[Buffet]

I'd predict Steyn's SR to be around 47-50 in older eras. Part of the reason for his low SR is because the game's played at a faster pace

Well, games are not only faster but scores are bigger as well. If we are going to say that his SR would have increased in different era then we should also say - his average would have decreased because batting units are scoring more runs per wickets during Steyn's time.

Just presenting the flip side of argument you raised here.

 

[WrexEverything]

Well, games are not only faster but scores are bigger as well. If we are going to say that his SR would have increased in different era then we should also say - his average would have decreased because batting units are scoring more runs per wickets during Steyn's time.

Just presenting the flip side of argument you raised here.

Exactly. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Pak_Jazba]

Lol, again this nonsense. Some of the lineups Steyn has bowled to:

Ind: Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Sachin, VVS. Best lineup in India's history
NZ: Williamson, Taylor, Watling. NZ's best middle order since 70s and 80s
SL: Dilshan, Mahela, Sanga, Mathews. Easily the best SL lineup ever.
Eng: Strauss, Cook, Trott, KP, Prior. One of the best England lineups in decades
Aus: Hayden, Warner, Ponting, Clarke, Hussey. Awesome lineup again


If you want to make points in Wasim's favour, fine. Donot resort to flat out lies. These are all great batting lineups. And is hardly "low-quality" opposition.

TBH, Wasim had bowled to far far better batting line-ups than the ones mentioned above.
Apart from maybe India. I think Wasim bowled to better batsmen overall in the 90s.

SriLanka - Atapattu, Jayasuriya, Jayawardene, Ranatunga, Aravinda DSilva, Kaluwitharana
Australia - Hayden, Gilly, Steve Waugh, Mark Waugh, Ponting, Mark Taylor, Slater
Windies - Hooper, Lara, Chanders, Sarwan, Adams
NZ - Greatbatch, Rutherford, Astle,
England - Atherton, Gowers, Ramprakash, Stewart, Gooch
India - Tendulkar, Ganguly, Dravid, Laxman, Azharuddin

Even Zimbabwe had Grant Flower, Andy Flower, Alistair Campbell which made them a formidable batting side.

By the time Steyn actually started performing (2007 onwards), Most of the batsman mentioned above had already retired or were off their peak days, barring a few such as Tendulkar, Mahela, Sanga.

I'll not accept the fact that Steyn bowled to better bowlers, when in-fact Wasim bowled to THE BEST of different eras 80s,90s and early 2000s.

 

[WrexEverything]

TBH, Wasim had bowled to far far better batting line-ups than the ones mentioned above.
Apart from maybe India. I think Wasim bowled to better batsmen overall in the 90s.

SriLanka - Atapattu, Jayasuriya, Jayawardene, Ranatunga, Aravinda DSilva, Kaluwitharana
Australia - Hayden, Gilly, Steve Waugh, Mark Waugh, Ponting, Mark Taylor, Slater
Windies - Hooper, Lara, Chanders, Sarwan, Adams
NZ - Greatbatch, Rutherford, Astle,
England - Atherton, Gowers, Ramprakash, Stewart, Gooch
India - Tendulkar, Ganguly, Dravid, Laxman, Azharuddin

Even Zimbabwe had Grant Flower, Andy Flower, Alistair Campbell which made them a formidable batting side.

By the time Steyn actually started performing (2007 onwards), Most of the batsman mentioned above had already retired or were off their peak days, barring a few such as Tendulkar, Mahela, Sanga.

I'll not accept the fact that Steyn bowled to better bowlers, when in-fact Wasim bowled to THE BEST of different eras 80s,90s and early 2000s.

I agree overall, but no way are the teams mentioned in bold better than the 2000s versions. Not even close. Even India.

Regardless, I only responded because he said "low quality opposition" which is absurd and false.

 

[WrexEverything]

By the way, Steyn becomes the fastest to 400 wickets in terms of balls bowled.

 

[ChachaCricket]

Lol, again this nonsense. Some of the lineups Steyn has bowled to:

Ind: Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Sachin, VVS. Best lineup in India's history
NZ: Williamson, Taylor, Watling. NZ's best middle order since 70s and 80s
SL: Dilshan, Mahela, Sanga, Mathews. Easily the best SL lineup ever.
Eng: Strauss, Cook, Trott, KP, Prior. One of the best England lineups in decades
Aus: Hayden, Warner, Ponting, Clarke, Hussey. Awesome lineup again


If you want to make points in Wasim's favour, fine. Donot resort to flat out lies. These are all great batting lineups. And is hardly "low-quality" opposition.

You're simply naming names and not clarifying at what stages of their careers these players were.

India: Most of them were at the end of it.
NZ: Steyn hasn't played a game against the recently rejuvenated side. Lol talk about desperate.
Eng: He's done great against them.
Aus: Hayden and Ponting were at the end of it. Last time he faced Warner, he opened Steyn a new one. Clarke did the same. He's faced fairly weak Aussie teams compared to the past and instead of dominating he's been average.
SL: Congrats

I'm not denying there aren't quality bats around but he has benefited heavily from facing weaker lineups. I'm not deluded enough to accept that Steyn's faced the same caliber of opposition that Wasim faced. You can keep trying to sugarcoat things by picking players here and there without any context. I understand he's your favourite, but you're going overboard and making yourself look like an idiot. Just relax baby.

 

[Pak_Jazba]

I agree overall, but no way are the teams mentioned in bold better than the 2000s versions. Not even close. Even India.

Regardless, I only responded because he said "low quality opposition" which is absurd and false.

Atapattu, Jayasuriya, Kalu and De-Silva won SL the World Cup and were responsible for SLs rise in World Cricket. From then onwards it was only Sanga and Jayawardene who held SL batting lineup. Dilshan is half the player any of the other players were.

As far as England is concerned. Only Cook and KP could have got into that England side mentioned above, and maybe Root (but lets leave him out because hes a new guy on the block).

 

[ChachaCricket]

Well, games are not only faster but scores are bigger as well. If we are going to say that his SR would have increased in different era then we should also say - his average would have decreased because batting units are scoring more runs per wickets during Steyn's time.

Just presenting the flip side of argument you raised here.

He'd be more economical.

 

[WrexEverything]

You're simply naming names and not clarifying at what stages of their careers these players were.

India: Most of them were at the end of it.
NZ: Steyn hasn't played a game against the recently rejuvenated side. Lol talk about desperate.
Eng: He's done great against them.
Aus: Hayden and Ponting were at the end of it. Last time he faced Warner, he opened Steyn a new one. Clarke did the same. He's faced fairly weak Aussie teams compared to the past and instead of dominating he's been average.
SL: Congrats

I'm not denying there aren't quality bats around but he has benefited heavily from facing weaker lineups. I'm not deluded enough to accept that Steyn's faced the same caliber of opposition that Wasim faced. You can keep trying to sugarcoat things by picking players here and there without any context. I understand he's your favourite, but you're going overboard and making yourself look like an idiot. Just relax baby.

Rubbish. Sachin, Laxman, Sehwag, Gambhir were all at their peak in 2008-2011 when Steyn ripped us apart on numerous occasions.

Ross Taylor and Wiliamson have been very good for quite a long time now. Their 2014 resurgence was because Boult and Watling also stepped up.

Eng, and Aus I agree, but you said "below par opposition". Seems you've backtracked now.

Sl:Congrats

Dunno what this even means

 

[WrexEverything]

Atapattu, Jayasuriya, Kalu and De-Silva won SL the World Cup and were responsible for SLs rise in World Cricket. From then onwards it was only Sanga and Jayawardene who held SL batting lineup. Dilshan is half the player any of the other players were.

As far as England is concerned. Only Cook and KP could have got into that England side mentioned above, and maybe Root (but lets leave him out because hes a new guy on the block).

I'm talking test cricket. Jayasuriya, Kalu, Atapattu are not a patch on Sanga, Mahela, Mathews and Dilshan.

Lol, are you seriously arguing that the Eng of 2000s is worse than the one in 90s? Absolute joke. Do you not realise that England slipped to rank 9 during 1999. They were atrocious.

 

[ChachaCricket]

Eng, and Aus I agree, but you said "below par opposition". Seems you've backtracked now.

I said "lower quality opposition." I figured you'd be smart enough to figure I meant the overall quality of opponents faced.

No, my friend it seems like you've backtracked after getting exposed by Pak Jazba. Ain't no way around it. Try again.

 

[ChachaCricket]

Gotta applaud WrexEverything for the effort though.

 

[WrexEverything]

You two are actually arguing that Atherton, Smith, Hick, ramprakash were better than Cook, KP, Trott, Bell, etc.
And that Jaysuriya, Kalu, Ranatunga were better than Mahela, Sanga and Mathews.

Only thing getting exposed here is your childishness and inability to make coherent arguments

 

[ChachaCricket]

Next one please.

 

[WrexEverything]

Yes please tell us more how Sehwag, Gambhir, Sachin, VVS were "well past it" in 2008-10 despite the fact that they were all piling up runs for fun.

 

[Stallion__]

[MENTION=138855]WrexEverything[/MENTION] closing in on century in this thread.

He is 95* at the moment

 

[WrexEverything]

I will keep going as until people give Steyn the respect he deserves

There's too much belittling of his achievements in this thread.

 

[Stallion__]

Yeah, but things have become redundant and boring now.

No new points being discussed.

Steyn is an ATG, no doubt about that. If any of Steyn and Wasim is ahead of anyone, its not by much, no one can go either way.

Even I don't agree many points people are discussing to prove Steyn's inferiority, but they are in minority and wold realize it by time. Its difficult to convince the cult followers no matter how hard one tries.

 

[WrexEverything]

Haha I agree it's going around in circles, but it just annoys me how people refuse to acknowledge the points which are in favour of Steyn , just like there are other points in favour of Wasim.

 

[ChachaCricket]

ATG but lame bowler.

 

[hk031992]

You two are actually arguing that Atherton, Smith, Hick, ramprakash were better than Cook, KP, Trott, Bell, etc.
And that Jaysuriya, Kalu, Ranatunga were better than Mahela, Sanga and Mathews.

Only thing getting exposed here is your childishness and inability to make coherent arguments

Wasim faced better batsmen, its not even close.

Wasim faced Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting. All in or near this primes.

Martin Crowe was a better batsmen than Cook or Bell or Mahela for that matter.

Not to even mention Allan Border, Viv Richards, Steve Waugh.

To be fair Steyn has faced several quality batsmen as well. And i have no argument with anyone who ranks him ahead of Akram. However your argument is flawed

 

[hk031992]

Yes please tell us more how Sehwag, Gambhir, Sachin, VVS were "well past it" in 2008-10 despite the fact that they were all piling up runs for fun.

Akram: Prime Tendulkar, Lara, Gilchrist, Steve Waugh Martin Crowe, Dravid.
Near Prime Ponting, Border, Richards was still in his prime in the late 80's when Akram was bowling to him

Steyn: Prime Pietersen, Mike Hussey, Michael Clarke, Ghambir, Sehwag, VVS, Cook, Chanderpaul
Aging but still very good Tendulkar, Dravid

Yeah i am afraid Wasim wins this one by a fair margin.

 

[WrexEverything]

Wasim faced better batsmen, its not even close.

Wasim faced Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting. All in or near this primes.

Martin Crowe was a better batsmen than Cook or Bell or Mahela for that matter.

Not to even mention Allan Border, Viv Richards, Steve Waugh.

To be fair Steyn has faced several quality batsmen as well. And i have no argument with anyone who ranks him ahead of Akram. However your argument is flawed

I did not argue that Steyn faced better batsman overall. Only that he faced lots of quality batsmen as well. And you admit that.

 

[CricketTragic]

Statistically Steyn has been a better test bowler than Wasim. But Wasim was more beautiful to watch and was a magician. Steyn is bit bland.

 

[hk031992]

Steyn is a brilliant bowler. No one bowls an outswinger like him and he has a good inwards delivery as well. He is so effective whether he bowls in the 130's or 140's. Great bowler. My only criticism would be that he hasn't developed a great yorker, which a lot of great quick bowlers have and it would be devestating weapon for him at that pace. Then again, no one has everything. He's just one of the best ever.

Wasim, on the other hand was not as consistent but he is the most versatile fast bowler i have ever seen. He had everything, outswing, inswing, wonderful yorker, slower ball, bouncer, no one that i have seen matches him for versatility. But because he had so much variety, i feel like even he struggled to employ so much variety every time, which is partially why he was a little less consistent than say Mcgrath or Ambrose or Steyn. Not to mention Pakistan's pathetic fielding.

I have no issue with anyone ranking Steyn higher, i probably would too. I just feel Wasim was every bit as great as these guys on his best day. Perhaps even slightly more so since he could hurt you in so many ways.

 

[Bilal7]

Oh really? Steyn's stats in the subcontinent:

18 matches, 87 wickets, avg: 22.75, SR: 39 .

Your argument doesn't hold up.

How many wickets has Steyn taken outside SA at what SR & AVG?
IIRC Steyn has nearly 100 wickets in Asian conditions at a phenomenal SR and average which renders your whole point useless.
Again no fast bowler in history has taken more wickets than Steyn in those conditions (of all those from outside the subcontinent)

18 matches. Come back when Steyn plays 50 test matches on the dead tracks of the subcon, as well as tens of FC games. Going to Asia, once in a while and finding success after giving it your all for a few days is easy. Playing half of your matches there and having to bowl your heart out every day in order to get wickets is quite another.

Injury, loss of form and motivation are all side-effects of bowling on such unhelpful surfaces. Why do you think that other than Pakistan, there is not a single great pacer from the entire subcon?

Had Wasim been fortunate enough to play 50% of his matches in South Africa, his average would be in the teens.

 

[Ali1984]

18 matches. Come back when Steyn plays 50 test matches on the dead tracks of the subcon, as well as tens of FC games. Going to Asia, once in a while and finding success after giving it your all for a few days is easy. Playing half of your matches there and having to bowl your heart out every day in order to get wickets is quite another.

Injury, loss of form and motivation are all side-effects of bowling on such unhelpful surfaces. Why do you think that other than Pakistan, there is not a single great pacer from the entire subcon?

Had Wasim been fortunate enough to play 50% of his matches in South Africa, his average would be in the teens.

Nailed it right there buddy! McGrath better record then wasim, better then wasim? No! Lillee better record then wasim better then wasim? No! Hadlee better record then wasim better then wasim? No!

Yes stats tell most of the story but not always, wasim came from subcontinent and other then he's compatriots there is no other bowler that comes close to him from the other subcon teams. Anyways this is all meaningless arguments, akrams odi record to go with his test record is phenomenal. There's more test results now so more risks for batsmen we can bend all the ifs and buts our own ways to make arguments sound better.


When you here ex cricketers pundits legends talk about bowlers you hear the name of wasim more then others mentioned above Wasim and Marshall have been acknowledged by some as the greatest of All Time not just because of there stats but what they could do with old or new ball and what they could do on not so bowling friendly pitches either.



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[Buffet]

.
Thread Title is - Can Dale Steyn ever match the greatness of Wasim Akram?
.


.

I think there is something wrong with our thread title here

 

[prtikul]

What is there to match? In my opinion he's already ahead in test cricket.

 

[aukhan]

One trick pony can never match Wasim's class.

 

[Hitman]

The man is just 32 and has already 400 + Test wickets. A bloody machine, a true legend.

P.S. The biggest point is that he never sold his country to the bookies neither was he ever caught tampering with the ball (cheating).

 

[Buffet]

One trick pony can never match Wasim's class.

Well, one trick pony has 400 wickets when multiple trick pony had 315 wickets at the same stage.

Tricks and ponies are good for shows

 

[Ali1984]

It's a ******** comparison really. Like comparing cook to tendulker or Steven smith to Viv Richards guess what they got to there landmarks faster then sachin and Viv


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[Buffet]

Like comparing cook to tendulker or Steven smith to Viv Richards guess what they got to there landmarks faster then sachin and Viv


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Well, we are talking about 400+ wickets here. Only one has gone past 10K runs out of listed batsmen. Let's take 8.5K runs because Viv went past it.

8.5 runs - SRT - 164 innings
8.5 runs - Viv - 182 innings

..
..
..

8.5 runs - Cook - 198 innings

Wrong examples even if you had a right intention

Cook was slower that Viv and SRT both. Steven smith can be compared when he gets to 8.5k runs. Right now he has less than 3K runs. We are not talking about Ashwin, Vern or Yasir getting to 50 or 100 wickets here.

 

[Buffet]

* slower than *

 

[Ali1984]

Getting to more centuries at a younger age buddy not runs.


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[Ali1984]

Getting to more centuries at a younger age buddy not runs.


Either way you can bend stats but as all people will tell you stats just don't do justice to some talent out there. For example Viv Richards is in the top 5 batsman of all time but there will be more batsman who haver better stats than him does that make them greater?? Why because of his flair something he done different the way he played and at the ease he accumulated the runs in an era where everyone was playing for draws likewise with wasim he had every delivery in the book and more. New ball old ball reverse swing out swing in swing double swing. His odi stats. Playing most of his matches on dead subcontinent pitches, where as subcontinent has way way more results now then in wasims era the subcontinent pitches was a lot slower and flatter


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[Ali1984]

How many of these batsman reached the figure faster then Viv Richards? How many are actually better or regarded "GREATER" then sir Viv?

Sanga greater then sachin or Lara? I think not!



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[Hitman]

Bowling in a pace bowling paradise like South Africa, for 50% of your matches, does that to you.

Had Steyn been born in one of the subcon countries, he would have been lucky to be a fast bowler, forget about being a legendary one.

Batsmen from the subcon are inferior to batsmen outside of it, due to batting in friendly conditions, most of the time. The opposite is true of pace bowlers.

Is it? Well in that case, why does your beloved Wasim Akram averages 29.76 at an SR of 65 in Tests in South Africa? Any explanations?


Link: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/43547.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

 

[Buffet]

Getting to more centuries at a younger age buddy not runs.


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You could be youngest to reach to some milestone and credit should be given but age is not a measure of effectiveness of players. Hypothetically, you can play 100 tests in 7-8 years for Eng or Aus. It may take 12 years from someone from SA to play that many tests but effectiveness is about what you do in each test.

Off course , it's not the start and end of any comparison.

 

[Buffet]

How many of these batsman reached the figure faster then Viv Richards? How many are actually better or regarded "GREATER" then sir Viv?

Sanga greater then sachin or Lara? I think not!

If you take all pacers from 400+ club -

After 16.6K balls, you have slowest Anderson with 281 wickets and the second fastest McGrath with 323 wickets. All of them bunched within 41 wickets to each other. Being 10 wickets faster or slower can have many explanations but Steyn is 70 wickets ahead of the the second fastest in 400+ club.

Steyn being 5 wickets ahead at same stage will be similar to Sanga being 2 innings ahead of SRT in your listed stats. You can find a decent explanations for those kind of gaps but some one being ahead by 70-80 wickets at same stage is kind of difficult to explain without that dude doing something special.

Parallel to Steyn's example will be a hypothetical batsman reaching the milestone you listed in 115 innings when second fastest is at 152 innings. That kind of gap seems impressive and worth getting the attention.

Anyway,as I said earlier - this is just one data point and not the start/end of any comparison. But it's worthwhile to notice because Steyn is far ahead of other 400+ wicket bowlers when it comes to picking wickets quickly. It will be interesting to see where he ends up when he is at 450 or 500 wickets if he plays till then.

 

[Ali1984]

You make valid points buffet and your not a blind biased fan I agree with what your saying statistically but as I was saying stats don't tell the full story. Steyn is a great but universally agreed wasim is the most complete fast bowler. Even though he wasn't my personal favourite I found akhtar much more exciting as I started following cricket in latter stages of akrams career and early stages of akhtars, now akhtar was a beast not greatest of all time by far but just don't want you to think I'm being biased just speaking on what iv seen heard and read of akram and thanks to YouTube lol


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[Buffet]

You make valid points buffet and your not a blind biased fan I agree with what your saying statistically but as I was saying stats don't tell the full story. Steyn is a great but universally agreed wasim is the most complete fast bowler. Even though he wasn't my personal favourite I found akhtar much more exciting as I started following cricket in latter stages of akrams career and early stages of akhtars, now akhtar was a beast not greatest of all time by far but just don't want you to think I'm being biased just speaking on what iv seen heard and read of akram and thanks to YouTube lol


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Well, I have argued for and against Wasim depending on views of majority in different forums in many comparison. Since, it's a Pakistani dominated forum , I am presenting a flip side of arguments and off course I support SA so that's there.

If it matters, I will prefer to watch Wasim bowl than Steyn. I used to wake up to watch Pakistani and Indian games in 90s. It was not to watch India and Pakistan play. It was to watch Wasim and SRT.

 

[Ali1984]

Yeah he was much more exciting to watch (no disrespect to steyn) I am a big fan of South African cricket and for me they are very big under achievers devilliers is my fave batsman atm. You grew up watching wasim and Waqar at the peak and without a doubt the best opening bowling partnership. Usain bolt was a massive off fan off them too I think fans of great bowling loved the Waqar wasim duo and how they blew batting lineups away. Defended ridiculously low targets. Man I miss them bowling days. Nothing better then a fast bowler steaming in making batsman hop jump and fall over. Even though I am batsman, if I had to choose between sixes flying or wickets flying for me I know what's a prettier sight.


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[soso_killer]

18 matches. Come back when Steyn plays 50 test matches on the dead tracks of the subcon, as well as tens of FC games. Going to Asia, once in a while and finding success after giving it your all for a few days is easy. Playing half of your matches there and having to bowl your heart out every day in order to get wickets is quite another.

Injury, loss of form and motivation are all side-effects of bowling on such unhelpful surfaces. Why do you think that other than Pakistan, there is not a single great pacer from the entire subcon?

Had Wasim been fortunate enough to play 50% of his matches in South Africa, his average would be in the teens.

ok let's cut Wasim some slack, lets exclude stats from "hell" i.e. Asia and as a sweetener we can include those from "heavenly" South Africa.
As for Dale exclude all stats from SA and include those from "hell" as you wish, and let's see what we come up with. So how has Dale done away?

 

[Buffet]

ok let's cut Wasim some slack, lets exclude stats from "hell" i.e. Asia and as a sweetener we can include those from "heavenly" South Africa.
As for Dale exclude all stats from SA and include those from "hell" as you wish, and let's see what we come up with. So how has Dale done away?

Dale has better stats if you do that exercise

 

[soso_killer]

For me what makes Steyn great is not just stats but match and series winning conditions in tough places or conditions. He has come up with some match changing spells on numerous occasions. I've lost count how many times he has looked innocuous only to change the complexion of the game in a 5 over spell.
He has done it in England, Australia, India, Pakistan, UAE. I'm not talking stats here. SA has won numerous matches from difficult positions based on Steyn's maverick spells

 

[IndianWillow]

One trick pony can never match Wasim's class.

It is like this. Steyn is so good with the new ball that his team rarely needs to deal with the old ball. Yeah, Wasim had better bowling skills but Steyn would shoot down the opponent faster. Batsmen know Steyn would try to get them with his lethal outswingers, but often watch helplessly when they have no answers to the well anticipated delivery.

 

[soso_killer]

Dale has better stats if you do that exercise

So excuses of heaven and hell hold no water? oh well what next?

 

[CricFan007]

In that case why does Steyn have a better average and a far better SR than Akram. Any explanations?

Boss, did you not read at the start that without going into stat...this purely based on skill..Styen is nowhere close to Akram..

When we talk about 90's bowling, you have to also accept that 80 & 90's have seen some of the greatest batsman as well...today's batsman can't even play swing bowling..I never said Styen is not a good bowler, he is only one left...

 

[Ali1984]

ok let's cut Wasim some slack, lets exclude stats from "hell" i.e. Asia and as a sweetener we can include those from "heavenly" South Africa.
As for Dale exclude all stats from SA and include those from "hell" as you wish, and let's see what we come up with. So how has Dale done away?

Well here's the stats matey.

Venues away from home, Australia, New Zealand, West Indies, England.

Wasim: 39 matches, 174 wickets, 24 average, 55 strike rate 13 5wi, 4 10wm

Dale steyn: 17 matches, 77 wickets 27 average, 49 strike rate, 5 5wi, 1 10wm




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[Ali1984]

See now I'm stat bending above lol^^ this argument isn't going to be won by anyone,everyone has there own opinions and reasons. Pick your favourite and stick to him. Hopefully one day we shall have a pundits, ex cricketers vote for greatest list like we have every few years.


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[Sunzi]

Getting caught up on numbers - they might be in Steyn's favour, but I'd rather watch Wasim bowl any day. You're guaranteed similar effectiveness, in an unrivalled manner.

Of course Steyn is great... without a doubt - Wasim brings more joy; I actually hate the guy too for the way he was towards us when we met him in 1999.

But no bowler for me comes close to peak-Waqar. No one.

 

[Ali1984]

Another stat you could look at is the best teams of there respective eras iv selected two from each.

Steyn vs England and Australia

25 matches
115 wickets
29.33 average


Wasim vs Australia and West Indies

30 matches
129 wickets
22 average
50 strike rate.


That's enough from me now.


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[JibranAnsari]

isnt steyn better than akram in test matches already?

better average
better sr
same 5 fers
same 10 fers

probably will end up surpassing mcgraths tally as well.