Can Dale Steyn ever match the greatness of Wasim Akram?

[kingusama92]

Yesterday's spell against NZ was unplayable.

Classic Steyn.

For me right up there with the greatest bowlers of all time. Easily deserves to be in the conversation.

 

[Saffer_XIII]

I'll take Wasim any day of the week over Steyn. Steyn might have better numbers but I have seen him struggle numerous times with the older ball and when the ball wasn't doing much. Unless of course zippers and fingernails come into play. Wasim was a much more well-rounded bowler and someone who could unsettle even set batsmen regardless of the ball and conditions.

Marshall
McGrath
Ambrose
Hadlee
Wasim

Those are the top five Test bowlers for mine.

Did you seriously just use ball tampering as an argument against Steyn while comparing him to The Waz? I refuse to believe you're serious about that.

 

[SL_Fan]

I have seen them both and I remember Wasim to struggle more than any other so called ATG bowlers of the last 25 years. There were times Mcgrath, Donald, Stryn etc struggled but Wasim struggled ouside of Pakistan and against better teams. That explains why he didnt get as many wickets as Mcgrath, Stryn etc

Well you are obviously entitled to your opinion but I will choose Wasim over Steyn without thinking twice. Steyn has better numbers no doubt about that but I wonder what those numbers would have looked like if he had to deal with Pakistan's fielding. Around 64% of Steyn's wickets were caught btw (47% for Wasim) so fair to say they would have most likely taken bit of a hit.

 

[SL_Fan]

Did you seriously just use ball tampering as an argument against Steyn while comparing him to The Waz? I refuse to believe you're serious about that.

Wasim didn’t need any tampering to be potent with the older ball. His flick of the wrist was more than enough to make the ball talk regardless. That too both ways and at pace. Also don’t forget them toe-crushers. Steyn is a gun with the new ball and when the ball is doing a bit. As soon as that stops tho his potency goes way down.

 

[OS_89]

Wasim didn’t need any tampering to be potent with the older ball. His flick of the wrist was more than enough to make the ball talk regardless. That too both ways and at pace. Also don’t forget them toe-crushers. Steyn is a gun with the new ball and when the ball is doing a bit. As soon as that stops tho his potency goes way down.

Good thing he pretty much always makes the ball talk then.

 

[troodon]

May be not as Talented as Wasim. But Steynster is as effective if not more than Wasim.

 

[sivaji]

Well you are obviously entitled to your opinion but I will choose Wasim over Steyn without thinking twice. Steyn has better numbers no doubt about that but I wonder what those numbers would have looked like if he had to deal with Pakistan's fielding. Around 64% of Steyn's wickets were caught btw (47% for Wasim) so fair to say they would have most likely taken bit of a hit.

Good excuse because on I have seen SA drop far too many catches and if they were taken Steyn would have even more wickets.

Wasim Akram was not too much on outswing and catch in the slip type of bowler. He was more into lbw and bowled type of bowler so it is kind of not right to compare them that way

 

[sivaji]

Anyways Steyn has moved past Wasim Akram long time back and now is in the bracket with Mcgrath and Marshall. The number of terrfic spells Steyn bowled to change the direction of a series in mindblowing.

 

[Chrish]

The number of terrfic spells Steyn bowled to change the direction of a series in mindblowing.

In past years, almost every drawn/ won series by SA has included at least one match-deciding spell from Steyn (India/ Australia/ SL/ uae you name it)

 

[big_gamer007]

Wasim would always had hat ability to produce a magical ball out of nowhere which no other bowler has.. So that's why batsman fear and respected him.. But steyn overall has been more effective than Wasim in tests and is now slightly ahead IMO in tests..

 

[soso_killer]

5 wickets per match across 400 wickets? That's ridiculous for a fast bowler.
No one is anywhere near him in Test cricket.
When he reached 400 wickets it was clear for me he was the greatest Test bowler of all time.

I was undecided around the 300 wicket mark, after 350 wickets i knew he was in the top two/three. I didn't want to rate him ahead of Donald for a long time.
But once i took nostalgia out of it, i came to a sober conclusion.

Why should we wait until the end of his career when greatness is amongst us? Not many great fast bowlers got to 400 wickets. Marshall being a great example. Yet he is/was considered (myself included) as the greatest of all time. Having bowled in a bowling era i might add.
Yet Dale has 40 wickets more having bowled about 800 fewer deliveries. But we must wait?
I don't think so.

 

[soso_killer]

Yeah Steyn has benefited from playing conducive SA wickets. But he still has won matches comfortably away from home as well.

Did Tendulkar benefit playing in 'easy batting' conditions such as India? Maybe but he still outscored his contemporaries. Only bat to average 40+ against all Test playing nations. To refute Tendulkar as the best bat would be akin to fighting a tide with a bucket.

Bowlers have bowled in friendlier conditions before, uncovered pitches as well. Let's be mindful of that.
South Africa is not even what it used to be in the 90's, but still good bowling conditions i must admit.
Steyn has numbers to rival those who played in better conditions than he did.

The aura of the man can't be denied. Forget stats, How many bowlers are better match winners than him? Zero.
In South Africa we call that cards and spades.

 

[street cricketer]

Steyn is already in the top 3 pacers ever in Test cricket for me.

Would love a Steyn vs McGrath comparison.

 

[Bilal7]

5 wickets per match across 400 wickets? That's ridiculous for a fast bowler.
No one is anywhere near him in Test cricket.
When he reached 400 wickets it was clear for me he was the greatest Test bowler of all time.

I was undecided around the 300 wicket mark, after 350 wickets i knew he was in the top two/three. I didn't want to rate him ahead of Donald for a long time.
But once i took nostalgia out of it, i came to a sober conclusion.

Why should we wait until the end of his career when greatness is amongst us? Not many great fast bowlers got to 400 wickets. Marshall being a great example. Yet he is/was considered (myself included) as the greatest of all time. Having bowled in a bowling era i might add.
Yet Dale has 40 wickets more having bowled about 800 fewer deliveries. But we must wait?
I don't think so.

If Dale fails badly over the next two years, both his average and his aura will both take a hit and then people calling him the best ever will be embarrassed.

Happened with Ponting, Smith and even Sachin. Looks like it will happen with Steyn as well.

 

[street cricketer]

If Dale fails badly over the next two years, both his average and his aura will both take a hit and then people calling him the best ever will be embarrassed.

Happened with Ponting, Smith and even Sachin. Looks like it will happen with Steyn as well.

You think Ponting or Sachin's aura took a hit because of their regression in the last one or two years of their career..

Final regression with age happens with every single athlete.

 

[SL_Fan]

Good thing he pretty much always makes the ball talk then.

Obviously that's not the point. Wasim was a much more complete bowler. Newer ball, older ball, conditions, right handers, left handers etc didn't worry him. He had all the tricks and then some. Steyn on the other hand was mostly an out-swing bowler he didn't have full control to move it both ways whenever or much of a yorker. As a result he didn't do all that well against lefties. Wasim was top notch across the board.

 

[SL_Fan]

Good excuse because on I have seen SA drop far too many catches and if they were taken Steyn would have even more wickets.

Wasim Akram was not too much on outswing and catch in the slip type of bowler. He was more into lbw and bowled type of bowler so it is kind of not right to compare them that way

SA have been one of if not the best fielding unit for yonks.

 

[sivaji]

Obviously that's not the point. Wasim was a much more complete bowler. Newer ball, older ball, conditions, right handers, left handers etc didn't worry him. He had all the tricks and then some. Steyn on the other hand was mostly an out-swing bowler he didn't have full control to move it both ways whenever or much of a yorker. As a result he didn't do all that well against lefties. Wasim was top notch across the board.

Wasim was ordinary with the new ball and he didnt take enough wickets. He was never rated no 1 either. He was behind Donald and Ambrose and later behind McgratH. Wasim could swing both ways but he couldt use it properly to get wickets. Same way Anderson could move it either way but is nowhere near Steyn. It is not about how many types of deliveries you can bowl but about how effective you are. Mcgrath wasnt flashy like Wasim either but he was more effective.
Wasim was like M Waugh. Junior Waugh had all the shots but he couldnt effectively use them to produce the best result. S Waugh didnt have as many shots as M Waugh but he was more successful. For alltbe talent Wasim had, he was less effective compared to his peers.

 

[sivaji]

If Dale fails badly over the next two years, both his average and his aura will both take a hit and then people calling him the best ever will be embarrassed.

Happened with Ponting, Smith and even Sachin. Looks like it will happen with Steyn as well.

Lol allthe ATGs have a couple of nad years before they quit and it never takes the shine away. Lara, Ponting, Sachin, Wasim all had crap years towards the end.

 

[Saffer_XIII]

Obviously that's not the point. Wasim was a much more complete bowler. Newer ball, older ball, conditions, right handers, left handers etc didn't worry him. He had all the tricks and then some. Steyn on the other hand was mostly an out-swing bowler he didn't have full control to move it both ways whenever or much of a yorker. As a result he didn't do all that well against lefties. Wasim was top notch across the board.

Why do you keep using past tense when referring to Steyn's career? Has he retired?

 

[Bilal7]

You think Ponting or Sachin's aura took a hit because of their regression in the last one or two years of their career..

Final regression with age happens with every single athlete.

Of course it did. Just see how many of their critics were slamming them for playing way past their prime and failing.

The selfish 100th 100 of Sachin's definitely hurt his aura ans he would have gone down a bigger legend had he retired in 2011. Would you disagree?

If Steyn plays way past his prime just to get to 500 test matches wickets while sacrificing his average and keeping a younger bowler out of the side, his legacy will take a hit too.

 

[street cricketer]

Of course it did. Just see how many of their critics were slamming them for playing way past their prime and failing.

The selfish 100th 100 of Sachin's definitely hurt his aura ans he would have gone down a bigger legend had he retired in 2011. Would you disagree?

If Steyn plays way past his prime just to get to 500 test matches wickets while sacrificing his average and keeping a younger bowler out of the side, his legacy will take a hit too.

The problem is most great cricketers just do not accept that they have lost it even when they are past it. Hence you see many such ATGs playing when they're past it because they still think they have it when in actual they don't. It happens in sport world over and not just in cricket. But that doesn't impact the legacy which they have created in the past when they're young during their peak.

Federer doesn't win many grand slams nowadays but is still participating nonetheless in the hope of winning another Wimbledon or a US open. But do you think Federer isn't regarded as the GOAT just because he happens to get eliminated in the 5th round or in the semis now?

 

[Tusker]

Of course it did. Just see how many of their critics were slamming them for playing way past their prime and failing.

The selfish 100th 100 of Sachin's definitely hurt his aura ans he would have gone down a bigger legend had he retired in 2011. Would you disagree?

If Steyn plays way past his prime just to get to 500 test matches wickets while sacrificing his average and keeping a younger bowler out of the side, his legacy will take a hit too.

Absolutely not .... the whole nation was praying and behind him to get to that 100th .... any lesser mortal would have gone mad at that kind of attention. Its pretty easy for armchair "experts" to pass judgement from the comforts of their armchairs and get their 10 mins of fame .... in the end the farewell 200th match where people were crying told the true story. Epic fairytale for an epic once in a lifetime cricketer.

BTW check Richards last 5-6 years ... very ordinary.

 

[Zak_Fan]

Its been a while since Steyn surpassed Wasim.

 

[SL_Fan]

Why do you keep using past tense when referring to Steyn's career? Has he retired?

My bad is was you get the drift

 

[SL_Fan]

Wasim was ordinary with the new ball and he didnt take enough wickets. He was never rated no 1 either. He was behind Donald and Ambrose and later behind McgratH. Wasim could swing both ways but he couldt use it properly to get wickets. Same way Anderson could move it either way but is nowhere near Steyn. It is not about how many types of deliveries you can bowl but about how effective you are. Mcgrath wasnt flashy like Wasim either but he was more effective.
Wasim was like M Waugh. Junior Waugh had all the shots but he couldnt effectively use them to produce the best result. S Waugh didnt have as many shots as M Waugh but he was more successful. For alltbe talent Wasim had, he was less effective compared to his peers.

Wasim was ordinary with the new ball? According to who exactly.

 

[sivaji]

Wasim was ordinary with the new ball? According to who exactly.

Stats. And he often struggled to knock off good batsmen

 

[soso_killer]

Obviously that's not the point. Wasim was a much more complete bowler. Newer ball, older ball, conditions, right handers, left handers etc didn't worry him. He had all the tricks and then some. Steyn on the other hand was mostly an out-swing bowler he didn't have full control to move it both ways whenever or much of a yorker. As a result he didn't do all that well against lefties. Wasim was top notch across the board.

yet a limited Steyn took 5 wickets a match over 415 wickets. Isn't that the whole point of bowling i.e. to take wickets?
Or must everyone swing the ball left, right and center ineffectively until Jesus comes back?
My basic understanding of the game of the game is that you bowl to take wickets, bat to score runs (at least when not batting for a draw). Aesthetics are secondary.

 

[soso_killer]

If Dale fails badly over the next two years, both his average and his aura will both take a hit and then people calling him the best ever will be embarrassed.

Happened with Ponting, Smith and even Sachin. Looks like it will happen with Steyn as well.

i don't believe in suppositions i can't predict the future nor anyone for that matter.
The next two years will be a drop in the bucket compared to what he has done for his country and Test cricket in general.
Players decline (it's inevitable), so what if Tendulkar had a poor ending towards his career? He still is comfortably the best bat of his generation. And up there with anyone who has ever held the willow.
So i don't get your point, 400 wickets is no joke for a fast bowler many great bowlers never achieved that feat Lillee, Donald, Marshall, Holding, Trueman to name a few.
Steyn is already past their tally, in impressive style too. Surely people will remember how good Steyn was at the height of his powers? And how everyone was behind him when he reached his first 415 wickets which is not a small sample by any means.
To be a thousand deliveries ahead of everyone is surely mentally insane. No?
This guy is very good, nothing is embarrassing about that.

 

[Hawkeye]

Wasim was ordinary with the new ball? According to who exactly.

Stats. And he often struggled to knock off good batsmen

That's what you get when you never watched ATG bowlers. And then go to statsguru to bend results your ways.

Anyways, not debatable.

As for 'greatness', Steyn won't reach there in stature and recognition. In Tests, based on performances, he's at least equally good if not better than Wasim.

However, in ODIs, it's not a comparison - he's a level below. Overall, it's pretty obvious he won't get the same recognition.

 

[sivaji]

That's what you get when you never watched ATG bowlers. And then go to statsguru to bend results your ways.

Anyways, not debatable.

As for 'greatness', Steyn won't reach there in stature and recognition. In Tests, based on performances, he's at least equally good if not better than Wasim.

However, in ODIs, it's not a comparison - he's a level below. Overall, it's pretty obvious he won't get the same recognition.

You probably watched Wasim highlights and think he was the greatest since ingernet was invented but if you had seen him whole career, it is pretty obvious he was a level below Steyn

 

[Buffet]

yet a limited Steyn took 5 wickets a match over 415 wickets. Isn't that the whole point of bowling i.e. to take wickets?
Or must everyone swing the ball left, right and center ineffectively until Jesus comes back?
My basic understanding of the game of the game is that you bowl to take wickets, bat to score runs (at least when not batting for a draw). Aesthetics are secondary.

i don't believe in suppositions i can't predict the future nor anyone for that matter.
The next two years will be a drop in the bucket compared to what he has done for his country and Test cricket in general.
Players decline (it's inevitable), so what if Tendulkar had a poor ending towards his career? He still is comfortably the best bat of his generation. And up there with anyone who has ever held the willow.
So i don't get your point, 400 wickets is no joke for a fast bowler many great bowlers never achieved that feat Lillee, Donald, Marshall, Holding, Trueman to name a few.
Steyn is already past their tally, in impressive style too. Surely people will remember how good Steyn was at the height of his powers? And how everyone was behind him when he reached his first 415 wickets which is not a small sample by any means.
To be a thousand deliveries ahead of everyone is surely mentally insane. No?
This guy is very good, nothing is embarrassing about that.

Very valid points raised here. Swinging left, right and center will not put you as a top performer. Performance puts you as a top performer. Talent, variety etc is all fine, but when all said and done, performance matters.

What Steyn does in his fading years will not take way what he has done for his first 415 wickets. Only handful of bowlers have more wickets, but no one with so less deliveries. IK hardly bowled in his last few years. Viv performed lot less than his career in the last few years. SRT hardly scored in his last 2 years. No one calls these guys less of a bower or batsman due to this. If you have already embraced greatness then last 1-2 years are not going to change much.

 

[SL_Fan]

yet a limited Steyn took 5 wickets a match over 415 wickets. Isn't that the whole point of bowling i.e. to take wickets?
Or must everyone swing the ball left, right and center ineffectively until Jesus comes back?
My basic understanding of the game of the game is that you bowl to take wickets, bat to score runs (at least when not batting for a draw). Aesthetics are secondary.

Well can you explain Steyn’s 120 odd wickets at around 30 a piece against left-handers?

The point is that Wasim was a much more complete bowler across the board.

As for McGrath, Hadlee was a similar sort of line and length bowler but he didn’t do too bad playing for a weaker attack and team now did he. McGrath vs Steyn is not even a contest imo.

 

[soso_killer]

Well can you explain Steyn’s 120 odd wickets at around 30 a piece against left-handers?

The point is that Wasim was a much more complete bowler across the board.

As for McGrath, Hadlee was a similar sort of line and length bowler but he didn’t do too bad playing for a weaker attack and team now did he. McGrath vs Steyn is not even a contest imo.

I'm confused here Steyn has his limitations and so does every bowler including McGrath who didn't have to many 5-fors in Asia. Those 5-forms are what win you games really.

Anyhow Steyn has strikes at about a thousand deliveries faster than anyone , why?
He takes 5 wickets a match. The only fast bowlers to achieve that had to bowl marathon spells like spinners, namely Hadlee and Lilee.

Lilee bowled 18 467 deliveries for his 355 career wickets.
Hadlee 21 918 for 431 wickets.
Steyn so far has delivered 17 210 balls for 416 wickets. He is going to beat Hadlee's tally by 3000 deliveries. That is ridiculous. He is so far ahead he is making great bowlers look like bodies.

Akram with all his super human skills and of course Pakistan 'never dared to temper with the ball'. After 22627 deliveries had 415 wickets to show for it.
And Steyn is not good enough to be compared with these guys?

Since Steyn is a limited new ball bowler, why is he so far ahead ? And its even close

 

[sivaji]

Well can you explain Steyn’s 120 odd wickets at around 30 a piece against left-handers?

The point is that Wasim was a much more complete bowler across the board.

As for McGrath, Hadlee was a similar sort of line and length bowler but he didn’t do too bad playing for a weaker attack and team now did he. McGrath vs Steyn is not even a contest imo.

Wasim was hardly more complete. He was ordinary against top order and better teams and often took cheap wickets. He took a lot if wickets after they have scored a lot of runs. He was ordinary against left handers too. He also took wickets bowling more overs than Steyn. Wasim also played in an easier era. Wasim wasnt very effectice with the new ball. He had to wait for older ball to reverse swing.

 

[OS_89]

Well can you explain Steyn’s 120 odd wickets at around 30 a piece against left-handers?

The point is that Wasim was a much more complete bowler across the board.

No one said Steyn is perfect. He has his flaws. Imo, any fast bowler not named Marshall has some minor flaw at least.

I don't know how you say Wasim was "much more complete across the board" . You have to qualify this. In terms of what? Just bowling to right and left handers? What about getting the top scalps of the opposition frequently. Wasim was good at it too, but Steyn is another level. His proportion of top order wickets is significantly higher.

 

[SL_Fan]

Wasim was hardly more complete. He was ordinary against top order and better teams and often took cheap wickets. He took a lot if wickets after they have scored a lot of runs. He was ordinary against left handers too. He also took wickets bowling more overs than Steyn. Wasim also played in an easier era. Wasim wasnt very effectice with the new ball. He had to wait for older ball to reverse swing.

Let's not make things up shall we

Wasim

Steyn

 

[OS_89]

Can you prove the fact that Wasim was better with the new ball with some hard evidence here? I donot agree at all. Wasim was better with reverse at the old ball, but Steyn's new ball spells are incredible. He consistently knocks over opposition batsmen in his first spells.

 

[SL_Fan]

Steyn is a beast with the new ball never said anything different. As for Wasim not doing well with the new ball and top order bats etc? I mean c'mon. See the links I posted in my previous post.

For me as I said in the other thread Steyn’s struggles against left-handers loses big points when you are talking about best of the best. Bit too one-dimensional for mine. Any ways y'all rate Steyn ahead and I rate Wasim ahead. Can't really go wrong with either one so let's just leave it at that.

 

[Ab Fan]

Aus- SA series would be fun.

Expect these threads associated to Steyn gets bumped.

 

[hk031992]

Wasim was hardly more complete. He was ordinary against top order and better teams and often took cheap wickets. He took a lot if wickets after they have scored a lot of runs. He was ordinary against left handers too. He also took wickets bowling more overs than Steyn. Wasim also played in an easier era. Wasim wasnt very effectice with the new ball. He had to wait for older ball to reverse swing.

Lol at Wasim being ordinary vs top batters, that is why he is consistenly rated ad the best bowler by many top batsmen from his era including Lara. Wasim was very effective with both the new and old ball. I have never read so many clueless posts from one poster

 

[Sidilicious]

Lol at Wasim being ordinary vs top batters, that is why he is consistenly rated ad the best bowler by many top batsmen from his era including Lara. Wasim was very effective with both the new and old ball. I have never read so many clueless posts from one poster

Purely from a Stats perspective, he does have more lower order wickets than top order. Additionally, Wasim was good with the new ball, but legendary with the old ball. Steyn is better than Wasim with the new ball. But that doesnt mean that Wasim was not good. Just not as legendary.

Of course, with the old ball he was a magician.

In tests, there is no question of Steyn's superiority.

When you combine both ODI and Test Format, Wasim is currently ahead. But, given that a performance in Tests is counts more towards ATG status than performance in ODIs, if Steyn can maintain what he is doing for another year and a half, he would have overtaken Wasim overall.

 

[Dead Ball]

Wasim was more skillful, but Steyn is a lot more effective.

Steyn now has 2 more wickets than Wasim having played 20 less tests than him in an era dominated by batsmen. That is absolutely mental.

I remember Steyn ripping apart the greatest Indian batting line up at its peak in 2010 at Nagpur.

Akram was a far better ODI bowler, but Steyn is comfortably ahead in tests.

 

[90MPH]

I said it before and I will again, take it from me who saw Wasim since 1992.

Wasim is one of the most talented cricket bowlers the world has ever seen.

However that doesn't mean he was the best, he wasn't.

Despiten his brilliant Test record he underachieved in my opinion. Because of team politics and other factors he should have got 500 Test wickets. However he was too preoccupied with one day cricket.

Now on to One day cricket he got 500 wickets, but that's 100 too many. Why ? Because he played far too many one day games and the PCB wanted to cash in on Pakistans success after the 1992 WC. Tests should have always been the first focus and playing as many Tests as possible.

That's why I will say Steyn has just overtaken Wasim In Tests.

Overall neck and neck but No one will remember your one day success in a few years time.

 

[sivaji]

Steyn is a beast with the new ball never said anything different. As for Wasim not doing well with the new ball and top order bats etc? I mean c'mon. See the links I posted in my previous post.

For me as I said in the other thread Steyn’s struggles against left-handers loses big points when you are talking about best of the best. Bit too one-dimensional for mine. Any ways y'all rate Steyn ahead and I rate Wasim ahead. Can't really go wrong with either one so let's just leave it at that.

You can go wrong with having Wasim because he is an inferior bowler. He cannot knock off class players and struggled against top order batsmen. He was terrible against left handers too.

Between Pollock and Wasim, you cant go wrong with either.

 

[hk031992]

You can go wrong with having Wasim because he is an inferior bowler. He cannot knock off class players and struggled against top order batsmen. He was terrible against left handers too.

Between Pollock and Wasim, you cant go wrong with either.

Actually Wasim did not struggle against top order batsmen, nor was he terrible against left handers. If you think Pollock and Wasim are comparable, then you have no idea what you are talking about.

Every single point you have made has been disproven. Wasim repeatedly knocked off class players which is why many players from his era rank him as the best bowler they ever faced. Why is that in your expert opinion? Brian Lara, the best left hander of his era, has repeatedly stated that Wasim was the best bowler he ever faced. Why is it that none of the batsmen who faced these guys ranked Pollock up there with Wasim.

The fact that you said Steyn would have gotten more wickets with another fielding line up is evidence that you are clueless. SA have always had an outstanding fielding line up and Steyn wouldn't have benefited from any other fielding line up. On the other hand, Akram's catches were constantly dropped.

What evidence do you have that Wasim struggled against top class bats, that he couldn't knock of so called class players? You keep repeating the same nonsense over and over again without any facts. And no, you cannot go wrong with having either one of them in your team.

 

[sivaji]

Actually Wasim did not struggle against top order batsmen, nor was he terrible against left handers. If you think Pollock and Wasim are comparable, then you have no idea what you are talking about.

Every single point you have made has been disproven. Wasim repeatedly knocked off class players which is why many players from his era rank him as the best bowler they ever faced. Why is that in your expert opinion? Brian Lara, the best left hander of his era, has repeatedly stated that Wasim was the best bowler he ever faced. Why is it that none of the batsmen who faced these guys ranked Pollock up there with Wasim.

The fact that you said Steyn would have gotten more wickets with another fielding line up is evidence that you are clueless. SA have always had an outstanding fielding line up and Steyn wouldn't have benefited from any other fielding line up. On the other hand, Akram's catches were constantly dropped.

What evidence do you have that Wasim struggled against top class bats, that he couldn't knock of so called class players? You keep repeating the same nonsense over and over again without any facts. And no, you cannot go wrong with having either one of them in your team.

I have watched cricket and I know that Wasim has been less effective snd it is a toss up between him and Pollock but Steyn is comfortably better than both. So were Doland and Mcgrath.

Wasim for all his abilities, wasnt very effective and didnt take wickets as quickly as Steyn.

 

[90MPH]

I can understand the theory in ODIS where bowlers can take cheap wickets as often teams have no option but to hit out at the end as they have to reach a target.

However how can this be true of Test cricket ? How can a bowler just survive alone on getting the tailenders out ??

And no doubt Wasim was a nightmare for tailenders but to suggest he got 400 Test wickets at 23 because he was only getting lower order batsman out is just complete nonsense.

Anyone belonging that nonsensical theory clearly didn't watch much Test cricket during the 90s

 

[hk031992]

I have watched cricket and I know that Wasim has been less effective snd it is a toss up between him and Pollock but Steyn is comfortably better than both. So were Doland and Mcgrath.

Wasim for all his abilities, wasnt very effective and didnt take wickets as quickly as Steyn.

again, you refused to refute anything in the post. I have watched plenty of cricket too and your posts are nonsensical. Where is the evidence that Wasim struggled against top batters when so many top batters from that era rate him as the best bowler they ever faced? And who exactly rates Pollock as highly as Wasim.

If you think its a tossup between Wasim and Pollock, it means that you know nothing about cricket.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Not only the greatest bowler but Wasim is arguably greatest cricketer of all times.

 

[Chrish]

Not only the greatest bowler but Wasim is arguably greatest cricketer of all times.

Who would be your top 5 all time cricketers?

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Who would be your top 5 all time cricketers?

Donald Bradman
Viv Richards
Imran Khan
Javed Miandad
& Wasim "Sultan of Swing" "The GOAT" Akram

 

[Chrish]

Donald Bradman
Viv Richards
Imran Khan
Javed Miandad
& Wasim "Sultan of Swing" "The GOAT" Akram

Is that in order? If not what would be in order?

 

[hk031992]

Great bowling with the new ball only to have more dropped catches:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UFgfhwnLS2w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[SL_Fan]

You can go wrong with having Wasim because he is an inferior bowler. He cannot knock off class players and struggled against top order batsmen. He was terrible against left handers too.

Between Pollock and Wasim, you cant go wrong with either.

Dude seriously stop making stuff up. If you didn't see the hyperlinks posted well here are the screenshots. The only significant advantage Steyn has over Wasim is his strike rate which is around the 43 mark against the top teams. Now it's a phenomenal strike rate no doubt but to put it into perspective Philander also has a similar strike rate of around 45 (Link). Both of them had strike rates under 40 in SA and took full advantage of the conditions. Other than that Wasim was arguably a more complete bowler across the board.

Wasim

Link

Steyn

Link

 

[SL_Fan]

Let's see who the great batsmen from the past couple of decades or so rate as the best they faced

Tendulkar named McGrath and Warne as the best

Ponting chose Ambrose and Wasim as the best

Kallis picked Wasim as the best

Dravid named McGrath and Murali as the best

Sanga chose Akram as the best


Also the two greatest quicks from the past couple of decades or so who do they rate

McGrath picked his top five fast bowlers mid last year

Lillee
Akram
Ambrose
Donald
Gillespie

Ambrose went with Akram and McGrath

So no mention of Steyn the greatest ever? Surely not!

 

[Hasan123]

There is only one winner in this debate.


The sultan of swing is the better bowler.

 

[Snatch]

Agree Steyn moved ahead of Akram some time ago. Just look at his SR in an era of countless batsmen averaging over 50, it's insane.

For me Steyn moves into 2nd = place of all time after Marshall & along side Ambrose and Hadlee

1st Marshall
2nd = Hadlee/Steyn/Ambrose

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Exactly what has Akram done in test that puts him ahead of Steyn? Steyn has the best strike rate in history of test cricket, a world record. Akram is more popular because he is a media personality in SC, Pakistan has more population and thus bigger fanbase, and Pakistanis care about cricket for more than SAF

 

[Snatch]

Exactly what has Akram done in test that puts him ahead of Steyn?

This is a Pakistan/Asian slighted site. Remember Sachin is greatest than Bradman here, Imran greater than Sobers, so following that same logic, it's not really a surprise that Wasim is the greatest pace bowler is it?

This doesn't surprise me in the least.

 

[Dark Magician]

This is a Pakistan/Asian slighted site. Remember Sachin is greatest than Bradman here, Imran greater than Sobers, so following that same logic, it's not really a surprise that Wasim is the greatest pace bowler is it?

This doesn't surprise me in the least.

So they are not real Cricket fans but biased individuals who can't see other players beside their own?

 

[Tusker]

This is a Pakistan/Asian slighted site. Remember Sachin is greatest than Bradman here, Imran greater than Sobers, so following that same logic, it's not really a surprise that Wasim is the greatest pace bowler is it?

This doesn't surprise me in the least.

Don' t club other Asian sides into this ...this is still a predominantly Pak fan site.

 

[Romali_rotti]

In ODIs Wasim is the greatest bowler of all time imo however in tests Steyn is wayyyy ahead, he plays in an era of easier batting tracks, thicker bats, influence of T20s affecting the whole sport... Had Steyn been playing in Wasim's ERA, I reckon he would have had 600 wickets easily with his ability and ridiculous strike rate...... Mcgrath is the greatest fast bowler of all time, if Steyn touches 500 wickets they I would be tempted to put him ahead of Mcgrath...........

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Wasim is easily the better bowler

 

[Pollack]

Comparisons across the generations are usually subjective and opinionated.
Wasim better than steyn in my opinion.

 

[Sidilicious]

Steyn in Tests, Wasim in ODIs.

Overall its Wasim Akram. But if Steyn has a couple of really good years in test cricket, he becomes the overall better bowler for me (because Tests will always be given greater priority)

 

[Sidilicious]

Dude seriously stop making stuff up. If you didn't see the hyperlinks posted well here are the screenshots. The only significant advantage Steyn has over Wasim is his strike rate which is around the 43 mark against the top teams. Now it's a phenomenal strike rate no doubt but to put it into perspective Philander also has a similar strike rate of around 45 (Link). Both of them had strike rates under 40 in SA and took full advantage of the conditions. Other than that Wasim was arguably a more complete bowler across the board.

Wasim

Link

Steyn

Link

For a majority of Wasim's career SL were a minnow. Only from the mid 90s did SL become really good. So if you are ready to ignore Steyn's record against WI, you also need to ignore Wasim's record against SL.

 

[Madplayer]

People talk about steyn bowling in a bowler friendly era when we know what kind of wickets SA produces for test match cricket.

He is a phenomenal bowler with a good record everywhere but without looking at the stats i can say there must be a significant gap in his stats at home and outside home. In australia he doesn't have a good record i think. In India he has a fine record.

 

[Sidilicious]

People talk about steyn bowling in a bowler friendly era when we know what kind of wickets SA produces for test match cricket.

He is a phenomenal bowler with a good record everywhere but without looking at the stats i can say there must be a significant gap in his stats at home and outside home. In australia he doesn't have a good record i think. In India he has a fine record.

He actually has pretty decent stats everywhere except England, which is very surprising. Even in Aus, he does average 28. And given the pitches everyone complains about its not too bad.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...=7;opposition=8;template=results;type=bowling

 

[SL_Fan]

For a majority of Wasim's career SL were a minnow. Only from the mid 90s did SL become really good. So if you are ready to ignore Steyn's record against WI, you also need to ignore Wasim's record against SL.

Up until around the late 90s when Murali came into his own SL’s Test bowling was certainly minnowish. A lot of part-timers were having to bowl a ton of overs. But the batting wasn’t too bad throughout most of that time actually especially in the SC. That’s what kept SL away from being out and out minnows. Also if you look at Wasim’s record against SL he in fact did a lot better post mid 90s as opposed to before.

Mid 80s to mid 90s - 15 innings 22 wkts @ 30.3
Mid 90s onwards - 17 innings 41 wkts @ 16.4

Link

Whereas WI have been rubbish with both the bat and ball in Tests for the most part post mid 2000s.

 

[SL_Fan]

Now even if you remove SL from Wasim and just look at the top six for both

Wasim overall - 128 innings 304 wkts @ 24.3 (2.4 wkts/inning)
Home - 42 innings 96 wkts @ 22.7 (2.3 wkts/inning)
Away - 86 innings 208 wkts @ 25 (2.4 wkts/inning)

Steyn overall - 128 innings 333 wkts @ 23.4 (2.6 wkts/inning)
Home - 73 innings 200 wkts @ 20.9 (2.7 wkts/inning)
Away - 55 innings 133 wkts @ 27.2 (2.4 wkts/inning)

As you can see from those numbers Steyn has fared significantly better at home as opposed to away whereas Wasim has a fairly balanced overall home/away record. Now if you want to put that in batting terms that’s like a 60 ave at home and a 40 ave away sort of difference.

Over 60% of Steyn’s Test wickets against the top teams have been taken at home which has helped him drag that bowling average down and the wkts/inning tally up. Obviously that’s hardly a surprise, in SA the conditions are very much conducive to fast bowling.

Also post mid 2000s while LOI batting has improved, Test batting standards on the other hand I would say have actually deteriorated more than any thing else. Plus Steyn has mostly played in a much stronger side for the most part. That too in one of the best ever fielding sides as well.

So when you add all that up as I said not sure how the tougher conditions and what not card can be used for Steyn in this instance. If any thing it could be argued that he’s actually at a significant advantage overall.

 

[Buffet]

During Wasim's career, batting average was 32.00

During Steyn's career, batting average are 34.33

It's clear that batsmen have it far easier during Steyn's career as compared to Wasim's career. Yet, Steyn's average and Strike rate combination is right up there.

 

[Bewal Express]

Steyn was a better test bowler, Akram was a better odi bowler.

 

[Buffet]

Steyn was a better test bowler, Akram was a better odi bowler.

One sentence captures it all.

 

[Hawkeye]

During Wasim's career, batting average was 32.00

During Steyn's career, batting average are 34.33

It's clear that batsmen have it far easier during Steyn's career as compared to Wasim's career. Yet, Steyn's average and Strike rate combination is right up there.

It's 32 vs 34, not 32 vs 44. )

And look at the difference in bowling averages -- same 2 points, esp, in away Tests. Now, cricket isn't played purely on numbers. Batting overall average is the same, but Wasim bowled to ATG batsmen.

And there's skillset as well, where Steyn can't dream of reaching Wasim.

Cut it.

 

[Buffet]

It's 32 vs 34, not 32 vs 44. )

That's as huge as you can get in two different era's in recent decades. 8-10% over all difference in batting average means a huge difference. You are never going to get bigger difference. Whichever way you look, batsmen have it easier in Steyn's era and you don't even need any stats for that as long as you have watched both eras.

 

[Madplayer]

During Wasim's career, batting average was 32.00

During Steyn's career, batting average are 34.33

It's clear that batsmen have it far easier during Steyn's career as compared to Wasim's career. Yet, Steyn's average and Strike rate combination is right up there.

Bro green pitches are served in SA where steyn plays most of his cricket. Not saying he isnt an ATG. I think we have all passed that point.

Personally i think marshall is the best ever. Rest you can make a case for number second or third or fourth for a lot of bowlers without any conclusive proofs.

 

[Protea Fan]

It's 32 vs 34, not 32 vs 44. )

And look at the difference in bowling averages -- same 2 points, esp, in away Tests. Now, cricket isn't played purely on numbers. Batting overall average is the same, but Wasim bowled to ATG batsmen.

And there's skillset as well, where Steyn can't dream of reaching Wasim.

Cut it.

Who were the ATG's u were refering in akram's era....thus they have anything special as compared to the greats of steyns era

Steyn bowled in an era were Tendulkar,Ponting,dravid,sangakkara,jayawardane,chanderpaul,sehwag,hayden,laxman,younis,pietersen,Cook,kohli all played.... they all are greats

And without skills of akram's level steyn has got a more ecstatic status that too bowling in less favourable conditions thats sums up everything

 

[Buffet]

Bro green pitches are served in SA where steyn plays most of his cricket.

During Steny's career, bowling average in SA is 31.46.

During Wasim's career , bowling average in all venues taken together was 32.

You get green pitches at times, but over all batting average of 31.46 tell you that batsmen didn't have tough times consistently in SA. Otherwise they won't be averaging just half point less than batting average in all venues during Wasim's time.

 

[The_Odd_One]

During Steny's career, bowling average in SA is 31.46.

During Wasim's career , bowling average in all venues taken together was 32.

You get green pitches at times, but over all batting average of 31.46 tell you that batsmen didn't have tough times consistently in SA. Otherwise they won't be averaging just half point less than batting average in all venues during Wasim's time.

But one point you should also consider is that Akram bowled a lot on dead Asian tracks. Even in his era, those pitches produced 500+ scores.