Dawah, Islamic Law, Punishments & Limits in Islam

[LordJames]

There is a lot of misunderstanding on the forum (from both Muslims and Non-Muslims) about Islam and I believe that some facts need to be stated on the boundaries.

Before I begin, I would like to request everyone who has a disagreement on the matter to clearly state and distinguish their personal opinion from Islamic law i.e. you are free to state your personal opinion but do not conflate Islamic law with your personal opinion. If you wish to state an Islamic principle, please provide evidence from Islamic sources.

Secondly, what practically happens in any Muslim country (Pakistan, Afghanistan or any other) does not necessarily represent Islam or even in Non-Muslim countries as a “custom” adopted by Muslims e.g. in India there is a huge issue and controversy prohibiting women from visiting “Holy Shrines” while Islam permits women to visit “Mosque (i.e. places of actual worship)” which are far superior to random burial sites. Saudi Arabia prohibiting women from driving (now allowed) for decades has nothing to do with Islam!

Thirdly, the two Holy cities of Makkah & Madina are sacred and they have a special status so some of the rules which I describe do not apply due to a “special status”, I will give you two examples which I have witnessed, and others can easily verify to understand the point:
​

• Church of the Nativity (Bethlehem) forces visitors to cover and no food/drink items are allowed inside​
• Many areas in Vatican force both men and women to cover knees and shoulders​

Those who disagree are spoken to and then denied access if they do not comply.

Prohibitions such as Alcohol or consumption of pork etc are applicable to Muslims and do not apply to Non-Muslims. Historically (Ottoman Empire) and if we had an Islamic Caliphate today, non-Muslims will be allowed to consume alcohol and/or pork. If a “Muslim Vigilante” harms the Alcohol/Pork business or belongings of a “Non-Muslim” then they will be punished and the loses will be compensated. Muslims who consume Alcohol or pork will be punished according to “Ta’dheer” which is a section of Islamic law where punishments are set by mutual consultation e.g. the punishment may differ in Pakistan to UAE or Saudi Arabia etc.

Non-Muslim women have no requirement in Islam to wear Hijab or Abaya (this is Saudi local law). Historically (Ottoman Empire) and if we had an Islamic Caliphate then Non-Muslims will be held to a decent and sensible moral standard similar to what Vatican requires.

Non-Muslim places of worship are protected in Islam but the running of the administrative affairs is left to Non-Muslims.

Social rights and charitable benefits (education, Healthcare, benefits) are the same for Muslims and Non-Muslims in an Islamic Caliphate.

Non-Muslims are not subject to Islamic law and their affairs are decided according to their own legal code, they can optionally choose to and voluntarily subject themselves to Islamic judicial system. I have been told by an Attorney the UAE law today has such provisions and some Non-Muslims opt for it in cases of child custody etc.

Non-Muslims living under an Islamic Caliphate are charged a mandated Jizya (Protection Tax) which is how their protection, security, (separate legal system) are maintained. This is the cost of living under Islamic Caliphate. The Muslim pay ZAKAT & USHER (agricultural tax) but the Non-Muslims are exempt from it. So both parties (Muslims + Non-Muslims) pay Taxes (Muslims pay Zakat+ Usher while Non-Muslims pay Jizya).

Islam prohibits monopoly and profits on natural resources so gas, water, electricity will be distributed to all citizens on cost regardless of religion.

Muslims are also subject to hudood (punitive punishments based on textual evidence) for certain crimes but they do not apply to Non-Muslims e.g. if a Non-Muslim is caught in a consensual sexual relationship with his/her neighbor, the matter will be referred to their local judicial system while the Muslim will be charged and tried under Islamic legal system. Both Muslims are Non-Muslims guilty of rape will be tried under the same jurisdiction and punished according to “Ta’dheer” which means the punishment will differ according to what has been agreed.

All Muslims at all levels are encouraged to give Dawah to Non-Muslims towards Islam. This does not mean shoving Islam in their face (its counterproductive anyways) but demonstrating Islam and there are million ways of doing it.

This is done by millions of Muslims around the world everyday, an example from a few weeks ago in the local community….A practicing Muslim woman got fired from her job, her manager called her into the office and gave her notice so she read [2:156] out aloud and remined calm. The Manager said that in 22 years, he has never seen such a reaction and what did she say so she explained. The Manager was curious about Islam and asked for a copy of the Qur’an to read…This is Dawah

Millions of Muslims around the world go about their business at work, schools etc and display Islam, some do it intentionally while others do it unintentionally while not drinking or eating pork etc or wearing Hijab or having a Beard…Some talk about it, answer questions etc while others don’t …This is Dawah.

Dawah has its principles and its wisdom and to boast about it OR put someone on the backfoot (by publicly announcing that he/she was asking questions or was interested in Islam without their permission and consent) is ridiculous and counterproductive. In my college days, a local guy who was part of a very popular band started looking into Islam and after a while accepted Islam and it was major news on the campus and it came to everyone as a shock. Yesterday, a (trump backing MAGA) woman accepted Islam but she has been sending tweets every few days about Islam so she chose to advertise what she was doing.

I was traveling, and the Assistant Chief of Police in a major US city (blond hair, blue eyed guy) was a Muslim and told me, otherwise nobody would know.

There are many YouTube channels who answer these sorts of objections about Islam and there are many courses on Dawah, many Muslims specialize in specific areas…Dawah has principles and the goal behind Dawah is to "impress someone" to pique their curiosity about Islam and making boastful public claims that "Harbajhan Singh" was close to accepting Islam while publicly putting a practicing Sikh on the defensive is IDIOTIC!

Lastly, I would like to state my reasons for opening this subject. I do not know why Shahid Afridi, Inzamamul-Haq, Rizwan and others outwardly display their Islam and advertise their pictures being taken while praying etc when millions of Muslims around the world simply pray and move on. Hashim Amla, Moeen Ali and many others just practice they do take a stand on Palestine, Alcohol etc and deal with it in their stride. Having a Beard or not having a Beard has no bearing or connection with the ability to bowl fast or spin or bat!



​

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

If I understand correctly, you're suggesting that Saudi Arabia prohibiting women from driving for decades had nothing to do with Islam, but just a local quirk? Right, because nothing screams "purely local custom" like an entire nation deciding women should get behind the wheel... *decades* later than the rest of the world. And, of course, nothing at all to do with conservative interpretations of religious texts. Makes perfect sense.

Also, let me get this straight: non-Muslims are free to not wear the hijab because that's only a "Saudi local law"? So glad you cleared that up. I guess those "local laws" just conveniently pop up in various countries and dress codes for women around the Muslim world, without any input.

What you have written is all theoretical. I practical world Muslims shove there religion on our faces.. I had a Muslim guy trying to convert me and insulting Sikhism saying that it's a fake religion... so please stop giving us lectures about Islam and how good it is. All we ask is just keep it to yourself and in your private space.

 

[ghalib kichlu]

Wonderfully written up peace
People seem to forget how much shariah finance has helped the world economy
For a complete read up on hanafi shariah I definitely recommend the hanafi book 'mukhtasar al quduri'

 

[LordJames]

If I understand correctly, you're suggesting that Saudi Arabia prohibiting women from driving for decades had nothing to do with Islam, but just a local quirk? Right, because nothing screams "purely local custom" like an entire nation deciding women should get behind the wheel... *decades* later than the rest of the world. And, of course, nothing at all to do with conservative interpretations of religious texts. Makes perfect sense.

Also, let me get this straight: non-Muslims are free to not wear the hijab because that's only a "Saudi local law"? So glad you cleared that up. I guess those "local laws" just conveniently pop up in various countries and dress codes for women around the Muslim world, without any input.

What you have written is all theoretical. I practical world Muslims shove there religion on our faces.. I had a Muslim guy trying to convert me and insulting Sikhism saying that it's a fake religion... so please stop giving us lectures about Islam and how good it is. All we ask is just keep it to yourself and in your private space.

1. Prohibiting women from driving has nothing to do with Islam. In fact, prohibiting women from driving (for their protection) but letting them get into a Taxi or a private car with a driver (stranger) is stupid! Take the issue with Saudia
2. There are no specific dress requirements for non-Muslim men or women in Islam, again take it with Saudia. Muslims ask non-Muslims to dress decently and appropriately (the same as Sikhs do when visiting Gurdwara as I have experienced many many times)
3. It is expressly forbidden in Islam to mock or insult someone's religion or deity, if your religion or deity has been mocked then it was by the actions of an individual and in contradiction with the teachings of Islam.

Muslims says that Islam is the true religion and there are a billion on this Earth so everywhere you go and do you will encounter Islam and Muslims so I suggest that don't let Muslims live in your head rent-free.

 

[LordJames]

Wonderfully written up peace
People seem to forget how much shariah finance has helped the world economy
For a complete read up on hanafi shariah I definitely recommend the hanafi book 'mukhtasar al quduri'

Kitabul-Khiraj by Imam Abu Yusuf which talks about free market economy before the world knew what it was!

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Good OP @LordJames, everybody needs to understand Islam is what is enshrined in Quran and Sunnah. Not what displayed by some random Muslims.

 

[LordJames]

Good OP @LordJames, everybody needs to understand Islam is what is enshrined in Quran and Sunnah. Not what displayed by some random Muslims.

Absolutely.

Anyone on the forum is welcome to ask a questions and seek clarification if the actions of XYZ is from Islam or their own personal interpretation.

There are 1 1/2+ billion Muslims on this Planet and growing and within a decade it will be the largest religion on Earth (unofficially already is) and Muslims do all kinds of things in 4 corners of the Earth which may or may not be Islam.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Wonderful post. I appreciated every word of it.

I guess from a non-muslims perspective it must get very difficult to understand what exactly is , as they are told every state or popular movement that claims to be practicing it is actually not.

I like your summary of what good dawah is. People should look at the conduct of Muslims and it should be enough to explain Islam. Unfortunately this is not the case now in many instances.

 

[sweep_shot]

Absolutely.

Anyone on the forum is welcome to ask a questions and seek clarification if the actions of XYZ is from Islam or their own personal interpretation.

There are 1 1/2+ billion Muslims on this Planet and growing and within a decade it will be the largest religion on Earth (unofficially already is) and Muslims do all kinds of things in 4 corners of the Earth which may or may not be Islam.

I agree with you.

This is why people shouldn't seek Islamic answers from random online groups. They should go to mainstream scholars/preachers for clarifications.

 

[LordJames]

Wonderful post. I appreciated every word of it.

I guess from a non-muslims perspective it must get very difficult to understand what exactly is , as they are told every state or popular movement that claims to be practicing it is actually not.

I like your summary of what good dawah is. People should look at the conduct of Muslims and it should be enough to explain Islam. Unfortunately this is not the case now in many instances.

Actually...

There are plenty of examples from other religions where there are conflicting religious movements which are disagreed upon such as:

1. Khalistan Movement run by Amritpal Singh Sandhu: Run and managed by a fully practicing Sikh but does it reflect the teachings of Sikhism or not? Should we judge Sikhism by the actions of Amritpal Singh Sandhu OR actually study Sikhism to learn about Sikhism?
2. Nithyananda Dhyanapeetam: Does it fully reflect Hinduism or not?
3. Peoples Temple Agricultural Project by Jim Jones: Is suicide (or killing) or 900 people Christianity?
4. Lev Tahor: Does it represent Judaism?

I have given very recent and common examples, If people have simple common sense and are able to draw a line that these are cults/movements etc THEN they can wrap their head around the fact that ISIS/ISIL/Islamic State isn't Islam.

Within the context of this forum, actions of Shahid Afridi/Inzamaul-Haq or Mohammad Rizwan do not necessarily reflect Islam.

 

[Champ_Pal]

There is so much to pick in the post by OP that I don't know where to start.

Lets start with something as trivial as Driving a car by women.

A Muslim woman cannot go outside by herself without a Mahram. If women learn to drive a car, then there is every chance they go out by themselves without the knowledge of their husband/father/brothers. This is a strict no no in societies that follow Islam properly.

Are Women Allowed to Go out in Islam? - Islam Question & Answer

Women in Islam are permitted to go out for their own needs, but it must be within the limits and conditions set out in Shari`ah, such as being accompanied by a Mahram when she travels, or being assured that her route is safe when she moves about in her own city or locality.

islamqa.info

Saudi laws are not made out of thin air. They know their religion what the scriptures say.

Waiting for OP to respond.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Lol...don't know which Islamic books for you read as you once claimed. So you believe that Muslims deliberately not teach driving to their female family members because of this apprehension. It's too hilarious

There is so much to pick in the post by OP that I don't know where to start.

Lets start with something as trivial as Driving a car by women.

A Muslim woman cannot go outside by herself without a Mahram. If women learn to drive a car, then there is every chance they go out by themselves without the knowledge of their husband/father/brothers. This is a strict no no in societies that follow Islam properly.

Are Women Allowed to Go out in Islam? - Islam Question & Answer

Women in Islam are permitted to go out for their own needs, but it must be within the limits and conditions set out in Shari`ah, such as being accompanied by a Mahram when she travels, or being assured that her route is safe when she moves about in her own city or locality.

islamqa.info

Saudi laws are not made out of thin air. They know their religion what the scriptures say.

Waiting for OP to respond.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Lol...don't know which Islamic books for you read as you once claimed. So you believe that Muslims deliberately not teach driving to their female family members because of this apprehension. It's too hilarious

I posted the link in my response and you posted nothing in response.

Muslim women are not allowed to drive in Arabia as they can go out without the permission of husband. Islam does not allow a woman to go out in public without a Mahram. You should already know that.

 

[RexRex]

Anyone on the forum is welcome to ask a questions and seek clarification if the actions of XYZ is from Islam or their own personal interpretation.

Is it true Sharia law involves the following punishment ?

> stoning to death for adultery
> death penalty for apostasy
> death penalty for blasphemy
> death penalty for gay people

Honest answers only please.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I posted the link in my response and you posted nothing in response.

Muslim women are not allowed to drive in Arabia as they can go out without the permission of husband. Islam does not allow a woman to go out in public without a Mahram. You should already know that.

Muslim women do drive in Saudi Arabia. The ban was lifted. On what basis do you think it was lifted?

Muslim women can go out in public without a mahram too.

 

[LordJames]

There is so much to pick in the post by OP that I don't know where to start.

Lets start with something as trivial as Driving a car by women.

A Muslim woman cannot go outside by herself without a Mahram. If women learn to drive a car, then there is every chance they go out by themselves without the knowledge of their husband/father/brothers. This is a strict no no in societies that follow Islam properly.

Are Women Allowed to Go out in Islam? - Islam Question & Answer

Women in Islam are permitted to go out for their own needs, but it must be within the limits and conditions set out in Shari`ah, such as being accompanied by a Mahram when she travels, or being assured that her route is safe when she moves about in her own city or locality.

islamqa.info

Saudi laws are not made out of thin air. They know their religion what the scriptures say.

Waiting for OP to respond.

There is no guidance in Islam whatsoever that a woman cannot go outside of her house without a * Mahram. Please provide a single instruction of this nature from any primary source of Islam.

Lets discuss the issues one at a time.

* Mahram means a stranger someone who is not related to the woman.​

 

[Champ_Pal]

Muslim women do drive in Saudi Arabia. The ban was lifted. On what basis do you think it was lifted?

Muslim women can go out in public without a mahram too.

It was lifted in 2018 as part of modernization of Saudi Arabia. Liquor stores are also opened now for non-muslim residents. Laws are going to be relaxed as part of their Vision 2030 plans. So on what basis do you think Liquor stores are opened there?

MBS is in a hurry to modernize Saudi Arabia and transform it on Dubai model.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

It was lifted in 2018 as part of modernization of Saudi Arabia. Liquor stores are also opened now for non-muslim residents. Laws are going to be relaxed as part of their Vision 2030 plans. So on what basis do you think Liquor stores are opened there?

MBS is in a hurry to modernize Saudi Arabia and transform it on Dubai model.

"Saudi laws are not made out of thin air. They know their religion what the scriptures say."

These are your words. Do they apply to law that allows women to drive now?

 

[Champ_Pal]

There is no guidance in Islam whatsoever that a woman cannot go outside of her house without a * Mahram. Please provide a single instruction of this nature from any primary source of Islam.

Lets discuss the issues one at a time.

* Mahram means a stranger someone who is not related to the woman.​

In case you missed the link I posted.

Are Women Allowed to Go out in Islam? - Islam Question & Answer

Women in Islam are permitted to go out for their own needs, but it must be within the limits and conditions set out in Shari`ah, such as being accompanied by a Mahram when she travels, or being assured that her route is safe when she moves about in her own city or locality.

islamqa.info

Mahram means a stranger? What?

 

[LordJames]

Is it true Sharia law involves the following punishment ?

> stoning to death for adultery
> death penalty for apostasy
> death penalty for blasphemy
> death penalty for gay people

Honest answers only please.

Will do...

 

[Champ_Pal]

"Saudi laws are not made out of thin air. They know their religion what the scriptures say."

These are your words. Do they apply to law that allows women to drive now?

MBS is going against many things much to the ire of Muslims around the world.

MBS lifted the ban on alcohol in his country. Does it mean it is allowed Islamically? He is allowing concerts by Western artists and singers in his country. Does it mean it is allowed Islamically?

Look at this dance and what not party in Riyadh Saudi Arabia. Is it Islamic?

https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/30/middleeast/saudi-arabia-biggest-rave-mime-intl/index.html

 

[DeadlyVenom]

In case you missed the link I posted.

Are Women Allowed to Go out in Islam? - Islam Question & Answer

Women in Islam are permitted to go out for their own needs, but it must be within the limits and conditions set out in Shari`ah, such as being accompanied by a Mahram when she travels, or being assured that her route is safe when she moves about in her own city or locality.

islamqa.info

Mahram means a stranger? What?

what the article is saying and what you are saying is two different things?

here is what you said

A Muslim woman cannot go outside by herself without a Mahram.


And the article says this Women in Islam are permitted to go out for their own needs, but it must be within the limits and conditions set out in Shari`ah, such as being accompanied by a Mahram when she travels, or being assured that her route is safe when she moves about in her own city or locality.

Travelling in this context has a specific meaning but you seem to have conflated this with being unable to leave the house full stop.

 

[LordJames]

In case you missed the link I posted.

Are Women Allowed to Go out in Islam? - Islam Question & Answer

Women in Islam are permitted to go out for their own needs, but it must be within the limits and conditions set out in Shari`ah, such as being accompanied by a Mahram when she travels, or being assured that her route is safe when she moves about in her own city or locality.

islamqa.info

Mahram means a stranger? What?

I made a mistake and I appreciate the correction.

Gahir-Mahram or Na-Mehram means a stranger....

Thanks

 

[DeadlyVenom]

MBS is going against many things much to the ire of Muslims around the world.

MBS lifted the ban on alcohol in his country. Does it mean it is allowed Islamically? He is allowing concerts by Western artists and singers in his country. Does it mean it is allowed Islamically?

Look at this dance and what not party in Riyadh Saudi Arabia. Is it Islamic?

https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/30/middleeast/saudi-arabia-biggest-rave-mime-intl/index.html

"Saudi laws are not made out of thin air. They know their religion what the scriptures say."

So do they know what their scriptures say or not? Let's focus on your statement first please before introducing random points.

 

[Champ_Pal]

what the article is saying and what you are saying is two different things?

here is what you said

A Muslim woman cannot go outside by herself without a Mahram.


And the article says this Women in Islam are permitted to go out for their own needs, but it must be within the limits and conditions set out in Shari`ah, such as being accompanied by a Mahram when she travels, or being assured that her route is safe when she moves about in her own city or locality.

Travelling in this context has a specific meaning but you seem to have conflated this with being unable to leave the house full stop.

I love how you conveniently forgot to highlight the next sentence. May be you did not catch it. I will highlight it for you.

Women in Islam are permitted to go out for their own needs, but it must be within the limits and conditions set out in Shari`ah, such as being accompanied by a Mahram when she travels, or being assured that her route is safe when she moves about in her own city or locality.

Why go as far as Saudi Arabia. Look at your neighbor Afghanistan and see how they treat women there.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I love how you conveniently forgot to highlight the next sentence. May be you did not catch it. I will highlight it for you.

Women in Islam are permitted to go out for their own needs, but it must be within the limits and conditions set out in Shari`ah, such as being accompanied by a Mahram when she travels, or being assured that her route is safe when she moves about in her own city or locality.

Why go as far as Saudi Arabia. Look at your neighbor Afghanistan and see how they treat women there.

I told you in my post travelling here as a specific meaning. You are incorrectly focusing on it because you dont really understand what you are talking about.

Now, if you rephrase your sentence to say women in Islam cannot travel without a mahram, it would show you understand the issue. But you have misunderstood the article and came to an incorrect conclusion regarding being able to leave the house.

So I didn't conveniently forget to highlight. You are conveniently incorrectly highlighting.

 

[LordJames]

Resident in Islam:

This is someone (man or woman) who is in their hometown going to school, work, shopping, Mosque etc. There are no restrictions on travel on anyone so a woman can travel locally to wherever without a Mahram.​

Traveler in Islam:

This is a specific situation (man or women) where a person is away from home and in this scenario their prayers are shortened and they are exempt from fasting. The distance on which a person becomes a traveler (thereby shortening prayers) is differed upon but lets take the opinion of 48 miles, lets say that a Muslim travels more than 48 miles he/she becomes a Musafir (Arabic word for traveler)

There are restrictions on women traveling outside of 48 miles without a Mahram and there is disagreement on this matter too. The Saudi scholars deem it forbidden to travel outside of this "traveler distance which we have arbitrarily set to be 48 miles but the Saudi scholars have a different criteria". This discussion is in the context of going for Hajj in historical books.

There are other scholars who deem that if the mode of travel is safe than it is permitted, for example a woman is traveling by air or going in a Hajj group.

There are scholars who permit it and scholars who don't.

Your question was this and still waiting for Islamic textual evidence for this

A Muslim woman cannot go outside by herself without a Mahram​

 

[LordJames]

I love how you conveniently forgot to highlight the next sentence. May be you did not catch it. I will highlight it for you.

Women in Islam are permitted to go out for their own needs, but it must be within the limits and conditions set out in Shari`ah, such as being accompanied by a Mahram when she travels, or being assured that her route is safe when she moves about in her own city or locality.

Why go as far as Saudi Arabia. Look at your neighbor Afghanistan and see how they treat women there.

You have now put Afghanistan into the mix.

Land at Kabul Airport and women are everywhere, coming in and out of Taxis etc. There are restrictions (see my earlier posts) but not what you are saying

 

[LordJames]

Islamic Beliefs vs Jurisprudence (for non-Muslims):

There is no disagreement in the belief system of Islam e.g. Allah is One and you cannot be a Muslim if you believe in 2 gods...

When it comes to Jurisprudence and legal issues then what is not specifically mentioned OR agreed upon in the Quran and Hadeeth, scholars differ, I will give you a few examples:

1. There are 5 times daily prayers and since this issue is explicitly mentioned in Quran and Hadeeth there is no disagreement i.e. no Muslim believes to pray 4 or 6 times daily​
2. Conviction Standard & Punishment for Rape: There is no explicit punishment in Islamic law for Rape so CCD, medical evidence, finger printing are all admissible in court. Once convicted, the perpetrator can be sent for life imprisonment or put to death...No requirement for 4 eye witness etc​
3. Child Molestation: Same as above, all evidence is admissible in conviction ​
4. Wudhu (Preparation for Prayer): You must have seen Muslims washing themselves before prayers so what makes them repeat the washing? If a person gets a cut on their finger after Wudhu do they repeat because it is broken it OR not? This is a matter of disagreement​

The disagreement in Islamic Jurisprudence makes it extremely flexible and adaptable to emerging scenarios and circumstances e.g. How do Muslims pray where there is perpetual twilight and no sunset or irregular sunset or the twilight doesn't set etc.​

Saudi Scholars follow "Hanbali School of thought" while majority of Muslims (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Turkey, Afghanistan, Russia,, Syria, 50% Egypt) etc follow "Hanafi School of thought" so there will be difference in Islamic Jurisprudence and understanding and we will point it out where necessary.

Nobody in Islam believes this, at all.

A Muslim woman cannot go outside by herself without a Mahram

 

[LordJames]

Is it true Sharia law involves the following punishment ?

> stoning to death for adultery
> death penalty for apostasy
> death penalty for blasphemy
> death penalty for gay people

Honest answers only please.

Lets take your concerns, now.

Is your issue Death Penalty or for the issues which you have ascribed it to?

Islam supports Death Penalty so if your objection is to Death Penalty then you are free to disagree as there are many people who in their individual capacity do not support Death Penalty. Muslims are not here to please you so no issues if you disagree with Death Penalty.

Then is your disagreement with the method of Death Penalty?

Please take the time to detail your question as I will take my time and effort to answer you.

No need for "request for honest answers", not here to please you or change your mind, I am here to state the facts and I hope that you will do the same.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I posted the link in my response and you posted nothing in response.

Muslim women are not allowed to drive in Arabia as they can go out without the permission of husband. Islam does not allow a woman to go out in public without a Mahram. You should already know that.

This travel restriction pertains to an unsafe area, while women could travel freely otherwise. Also such rules pertain to traveling to a long distance and has been meant to ensure safety of female family members so that they may not come across some unfortunate incidents prevalent and quite common in some particular countries.

 

[Red-Indian]

Personally, this discussion feels a lot like between those American judicial experts who try to interpret what the framers meant by the words of the second amendment. It gets esoteric pretty quickly and turns into an argument between those whose want to use the most modern and liberal interpretations and those who want to stick to the old traditional and textual interpretations.

 

[LordJames]

Personally, this discussion feels a lot like between those American judicial experts who try to interpret what the framers meant by the words of the second amendment. It gets esoteric pretty quickly and turns into an argument between those whose want to use the most modern and liberal interpretations and those who want to stick to the old traditional and textual interpretations.

Yes & No.

The Islamic Jurisprudence has 3 primary and 1 Tertiary source, in order:

1. Quran
2. Hadeeth
3. Ijma (Consensus or Precedence): There are some nuances in this third primary source and it is differentiated between the era of consensus i.e. was it in the earliest time of Islam or later
4. Qiyas (deduction based on above 3)

Jurisprudence and legal coding by its nature needs to be flexible in order to deal with emerging issues. For example, is it permissible for Muslims to deal with Cryptocurrency? This issue didn't exist in 1990s let alone 1400+ years ago so scholars need to discuss and publish their findings.

There are issues in which there is no disagreement e.g. prayers are shortened when someone travels 48 miles (as an example), this distance can be covered:​

1. Walking​
2. Running​
3. Car​
4. Plane​
5. Space Shuttle​

And if the distance is covered then a Muslim becomes a traveler (thus shortens prayer). There is no valid scholarly opinion to modify the distance due to speed of a space shuttle so that sort of modern and liberal interpretation on issues which are already decided do not exist in Islam.
​

A simpler way for me to explain it Jurisprudence differences is via these two pictures, notice the position of hands, also notice headgear..Then extend this concept to other things.

It is mandatory to stand in prayers but how hands are placed while standing is differed.

As I said, these differences make Islamic Law extremely flexible and adaptable

Congregational prayer (Islam) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Red-Indian]

Yes & No.

The Islamic Jurisprudence has 3 primary and 1 Tertiary source, in order:

1. Quran
2. Hadeeth
3. Ijma (Consensus or Precedence): There are some nuances in this third primary source and it is differentiated between the era of consensus i.e. was it in the earliest time of Islam or later
4. Qiyas (deduction based on above 3)

Jurisprudence and legal coding by its nature needs to be flexible in order to deal with emerging issues. For example, is it permissible for Muslims to deal with Cryptocurrency? This issue didn't exist in 1990s let alone 1400+ years ago so scholars need to discuss and publish their findings.

There are issues in which there is no disagreement e.g. prayers are shortened when someone travels 48 miles (as an example), this distance can be covered:​

1. Walking​
2. Running​
3. Car​
4. Plane​
5. Space Shuttle​

And if the distance is covered then a Muslim becomes a traveler (thus shortens prayer). There is no valid scholarly opinion to modify the distance due to speed of a space shuttle so that sort of modern and liberal interpretation on issues which are already decided do not exist in Islam.
​

A simpler way for me to explain it Jurisprudence differences is via these two pictures, notice the position of hands, also notice headgear..Then extend this concept to other things.

It is mandatory to stand in prayers but how hands are placed while standing is differed.

As I said, these differences make Islamic Law extremely flexible and adaptable

Congregational prayer (Islam) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sure I guess it's useful that Islamic law is decently flexible and adaptable. I'll admit that this is something that I didn't really grasp... I only realised this relatively recently - partly due to this forum. I always had the perception that it was very rigid based on interpretations hundreds of years ago.

Gives me hope really. I feel comfortable that you guys will find interpretations that more suit modern existence. Maybe a future interpretation that homosexuality can only be judged in the afterlife or maybe adultery needs precise eyewitness proof from 4 adult males etc.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

[

Sure I guess it's useful that Islamic law is decently flexible and adaptable. I'll admit that this is something that I didn't really grasp...I only realised this relatively recently - partly due to this forum. I always had the perception that it was very rigid based on interpretations hundreds of years ago.

Gives me hope really. I feel comfortable that you guys will find interpretations that more suit modern existence. Maybe a future interpretation that homosexuality can only be judged in the afterlife or maybe adultery needs precise eyewitness proof from 4 adult males etc.

The part about adultery already exists.

There must be four witnesses and they must precisely state that they witnessed the insertion of the penis into the vagina.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Lets take your concerns, now.

Is your issue Death Penalty or for the issues which you have ascribed it to?

Islam supports Death Penalty so if your objection is to Death Penalty then you are free to disagree as there are many people who in their individual capacity do not support Death Penalty. Muslims are not here to please you so no issues if you disagree with Death Penalty.

Then is your disagreement with the method of Death Penalty?

Please take the time to detail your question as I will take my time and effort to answer you.

No need for "request for honest answers", not here to please you or change your mind, I am here to state the facts and I hope that you will do the same.

Answer the question on Apostasy.

Narrated `Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to `Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn `Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Sahih al-Bukhari 6922 - Apostates - كتاب استتابة المرتدين والمعاندين وقتالهم - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic

sunnah.com

How would you defend the above. Burning of Atheists by Ali and Ibn Abbas said he would kill them instead of burning. Holy Prophet telling people to kill Apostates?

 

[Red-Indian]

[
The part about adultery already exists.

There must be four witnesses and they must precisely state that they witnessed the insertion of the penis into the vagina.

I'd vaguely read about that - the statement didn't come out of nowhere. I guess that effectively makes adultery impossible to punish under civil or criminal law. If so, I'm very supportive.

Punishing stuff like adultery, homosexuality and blasphemy should be outside the ambit of law. Maybe it was needed to maintain societal order hundreds of years ago but irrelevant now. I'm glad modern Islamic legal interpretations are tending that way.

 

[Champ_Pal]

[
The part about adultery already exists.

There must be four witnesses and they must precisely state that they witnessed the insertion of the penis into the vagina.

Even if adultery is committed, would you support stoning the adulterer to death or punishing them with lashes?

Sahih Muslim 1691a - The Book of Legal Punishments - كتاب الحدود - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic

sunnah.com

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Even if adultery is committed, would you support stoning the adulterer to death or punishing them with lashes?

Sahih Muslim 1691a - The Book of Legal Punishments - كتاب الحدود - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic

sunnah.com

Would you first answer the outstanding questions posed to you in the thread?

 

[IndoorCricket]

No true scotsman fallacy. Islam asks apostates to be killed. You know what it is similar to? A cult.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I'd vaguely read about that - the statement didn't come out of nowhere. I guess that effectively makes adultery impossible to punish under civil or criminal law. If so, I'm very supportive.

Punishing stuff like adultery, homosexuality and blasphemy should be outside the ambit of law. Maybe it was needed to maintain societal order hundreds of years ago but irrelevant now. I'm glad modern Islamic legal interpretations are tending that way.

Islamic law is structured around maintaining public decency, societal ties ( family or tribal), and order.

Theoretically one could commit adultery to their hearts content or have a gay relationship within their homes. But it is a problem in the public domain and infront of witnesses.

The laws around that won't change.

The laws around blasphemy will change and I don't think people will consider apostasy a punishable offence in the near future.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

No true scotsman fallacy. Islam asks apostates to be killed. You know what it is similar to? A cult.

It is unfortunate that in a thread where someone like @LordJames has went to a lot of effort to try and present information and debate it in an informative and educational way

 

[Champ_Pal]

Would you first answer the outstanding questions posed to you in the thread?

What question have you asked? A women cannot travel alone without a male chaperone. Below are the Taliban rules who follow Sharia.
Mahram rules: Women are not allowed to leave their homes without a male chaperone, such as a husband, father, brother, or uncle.

Long-distance travel: Women are banned from traveling long distances without a male relative.

Health care: Women need a male escort to visit a doctor.

Government offices: Women need a male escort to visit government offices.

Renting a house: Women need a male escort to rent a house.

Public transportation: Women are not allowed to use public transportation without a male escort.

Now don't tell me Taliban does not know what Islam is or they do not follow Islam properly.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

What question have you asked? A women cannot travel alone without a male chaperone. Below are the Taliban rules who follow Sharia.
Mahram rules: Women are not allowed to leave their homes without a male chaperone, such as a husband, father, brother, or uncle.

Long-distance travel: Women are banned from traveling long distances without a male relative.

Health care: Women need a male escort to visit a doctor.

Government offices: Women need a male escort to visit government offices.

Renting a house: Women need a male escort to rent a house.

Public transportation: Women are not allowed to use public transportation without a male escort.

Now don't tell me Taliban does not know what Islam is or they do not follow Islam properly.

So it also seems like you are stuck on your preconceived ideas despite people trying to explain to you otherwise.

There is no need to waste any further time. Thank you

You can follow the Taliban and we will discuss with reasonable people.

 

[LordJames]

Answer the question on Apostasy.

Narrated `Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to `Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn `Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Sahih al-Bukhari 6922 - Apostates - كتاب استتابة المرتدين والمعاندين وقتالهم - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic

sunnah.com

How would you defend the above. Burning of Atheists by Ali and Ibn Abbas said he would kill them instead of burning. Holy Prophet telling people to kill Apostates?

No true scotsman fallacy. Islam asks apostates to be killed. You know what it is similar to? A cult.

The punishment for Apostasy in an Islamic Caliphate is death.

The aversion, rolling eyes etc are mostly answered here, before making a counter argument spend 22 minutes and actually listen.

 

[Champ_Pal]

So it also seems like you are stuck on your preconceived ideas despite people trying to explain to you otherwise.

There is no need to waste any further time. Thank you

You can follow the Taliban and we will discuss with reasonable people.

Taliban are the closest to what pure Sharia looks like in modern times. They have their ulema who spent their lives studying Islam and the rules are set based on it. You are saying Taliban are not Islamic.

 

[IndoorCricket]

It is unfortunate that in a thread where someone like @LordJames has went to a lot of effort to try and present information and debate it in an informative and educational way

OP didn't cover controversial issues with Islam like penalty for apostates, gay people and other women rights issues. These are the topics thats needs to be discussed and demystified if you want to move the needle. If not its all just noise.

In other post, OP says, Muslims are not here to please anyone. If thats the case this thread is not required at all.

 

[Champ_Pal]

The punishment for Apostasy in an Islamic Caliphate is death.

The aversion, rolling eyes etc are mostly answered here, before making a counter argument spend 22 minutes and actually listen.

Mo Hijab and his bestie Ali Dawah are a joke. Bring in some other credible source.

I have posted the Hadith on what happens to Atheists and Apostates. The ruling is clear. It is death.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

OP didn't cover controversial issues with Islam like penalty for apostates, gay people and other women rights issues. These are the topics thats needs to be discussed and demystified if you want to move the needle. If not its all just noise.

In other post, OP says, Muslims are not here to please anyone. If thats the case this thread is not required at all.

If you felt the OP was lacking information do you think coming in with a one word sentence calling our religion similar to a cult is appropriate way of initiating the discussion?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Huh?? Is OP educational? Sure. But OP didn't cover controversial issues with Islam like penalty for apostates, gay people and other women rights issues. These are the topics thats needs to be discussed and demystified if you want to move the needle. If not its all just noise.

In other post, OP says, Muslims are not here to please anyone. If thats the case this thread is not required at all.

They always choose the soft semi defendable topics where at worse the discussion ends in a draw.

The real points that you mentioned are not touched.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Taliban are the closest to what pure Sharia looks like in modern times. They have their ulema who spent their lives studying Islam and the rules are set based on it. You are saying Taliban are not Islamic.

With respect you don't know what you are talking about about as you have shown earlier in the thread. Each time you have been found lacking you have moved the discussion.

When you are shown that you may have understood something you bring in Taliban.

It shows your preconceptions cannot be changed and are not open for discussion.

 

[LordJames]

I'd vaguely read about that - the statement didn't come out of nowhere. I guess that effectively makes adultery impossible to punish under civil or criminal law. If so, I'm very supportive.

Punishing stuff like adultery, homosexuality and blasphemy should be outside the ambit of law. Maybe it was needed to maintain societal order hundreds of years ago but irrelevant now. I'm glad modern Islamic legal interpretations are tending that way.

You misunderstood some aspects of my post, let me give you a clear example.

Homosexuality is abominable and forbidden in Islam via scriptural and textual sources.

Since this is an agreed upon position, there is no room for modern interpretation or "re-interpretation". This also doesn't mean that Muslims are allowed to lynch and kill homosexual (vigilante Justice is forbidden)

That opens up other questions like what if someone has natural urges and this issue has nothing to do with "natural urges" because urge is a "psychological phenomena" or may be a learned behavior. The only way open according to Islam is marriage between a man and a woman and all others ways to "act on urges" whether homosexual or heterosexual are forbidden.

Where an issue is not decided by primary, secondary or tertiary scriptural and textual sources then it can be interpreted. Even when an issue is in primary, secondary or tertiary scriptural and textual sources and if it is not agreed upon, it can be differed.

Homosexuality is not one of those issues so whatever is happening in the world or society is irrelevant.

 

[Stewie]

With respect you don't know what you are talking about about as you have shown earlier in the thread. Each time you have been found lacking you have moved the discussion.

When you are shown that you may have understood something you bring in Taliban.

It shows your preconceptions cannot be changed and are not open for discussion.

questions have been answered in several threads but employees the goal post or pivot tactics all the time. He is not here seeking the truth or searching for answers, just here to reaffirm his own ideas about Islam.

 

[LordJames]

They always choose the soft semi defendable topics where at worse the discussion ends in a draw.

The real points that you mentioned are not touched.

Not here to defend anything or please anyone. Whatever is in the teachings of Islam is in the teachings of Islam.

If you want to discuss a topic and say I believe a while Islam says b then go ahead.

 

[IndoorCricket]

If you felt the OP was lacking information do you think coming in with a one word sentence calling our religion similar to a cult is appropriate way of initiating the discussion?

What OP discussed is just strawman. There are threads where discussions on Islam's controversial issues are going on. OP starts by saying the understanding of Islam on this forum in not correct. He must have tackled them head on. I started my discussion on how OP is using a logical fallacy of "No true scotsman" then I stated my understanding of Islam, which is a cult, its upto the OP to counter me because OP is on a crusade in this forum to correct the understanding of Islam.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

What OP discussed is just strawman. There are threads where discussions on Islam's controversial issues are going on. OP starts by saying the understanding of Islam on this forum in not correct. He must have tackled them head on. I started my discussion on how OP is using a logical fallacy of "No true scotsman" then I stated my understanding of Islam, which is a cult, its upto the OP to counter me because OP is on a crusade in this forum to correct the understanding of Islam.

I will note your tone and reaction when others speak of your religion like you have spoken about mine.

It will be an interesting comparison.

 

[LordJames]

What OP discussed is just strawman. There are threads where discussions on Islam's controversial issues are going on. OP starts by saying the understanding of Islam on this forum in not correct. He must have tackled them head on. I started my discussion on how OP is using a logical fallacy of "No true scotsman" then I stated my understanding of Islam, which is a cult, its upto the OP to counter me because OP is on a crusade in this forum to correct the understanding of Islam.

I assert that you are an elephant so I demand that you counter it!

Do you the absurdity of your position? Lets now get back to the issues.

1. What is your position on Islam?
2. What is the basis of your position?

Please go ahead.

Thanks

 

[LordJames]

Please feel free to make your point.

1. What is your position on Islam?
2. What is the basis of your position?
3. What is your position?

Be detailed and please take your time.

 

[IndoorCricket]

I assert that you are an elephant so I demand that you counter it!

Do you the absurdity of your position? Lets now get back to the issues.

1. What is your position on Islam?
2. What is the basis of your position?

Please go ahead.

Thanks

My position is clear.

Islam creates narrative of insiders and out siders, like a cult. Orders killing people who leaves it, like a cult.

Apostasy in Islam - Islam Question & Answer

Apostasy in Islam refers to when a Muslim becomes a disbeliever by saying a clear statement to that effect, or by uttering words which imply that disbelief, or he does something that implies that disbelief.

islamqa.info

If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the judge, and he is not to be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims.

Surah Al-Bayyinah - 1-8

Surah Al-Bayyinah(البينة) 98:1 The disbelievers from the People of the Book and the polytheists were not going to desist ˹from disbelief˺ until the clear proof came to them:

previous.quran.com

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

I am a polytheist and Islam calls me and my fellow religionists, worst of creatures. It's divine discrimination. This fuels terrorists to shed blood without any second thought because they are believing they are doing Gods work. This is dangerous for any civilised society.

 

[LordJames]

My position is clear.

Islam creates narrative of insiders and out siders, like a cult. Orders killing people who leaves it, like a cult.

Apostasy in Islam - Islam Question & Answer

Apostasy in Islam refers to when a Muslim becomes a disbeliever by saying a clear statement to that effect, or by uttering words which imply that disbelief, or he does something that implies that disbelief.

islamqa.info

Surah Al-Bayyinah - 1-8

Surah Al-Bayyinah(البينة) 98:1 The disbelievers from the People of the Book and the polytheists were not going to desist ˹from disbelief˺ until the clear proof came to them:

previous.quran.com

I am a polytheist and Islam calls me and my fellow religionists, worst of creatures. It's divine discrimination. This fuels terrorists to shed blood without any second thought because they are believing they are doing Gods work. This is dangerous for any civilised society.

Calm down as I don't understand what you are saying. Please calmly respond so we can have a conversation.

1. Are you an apostate OR a polytheist OR both (i.e. were a Muslim previously and now are a polytheist)?

If you are not a Muslim or were never a Muslim then what difference does it make to you what Islam says about your believe? Why are you looking for approval from Islam for your belief? Do you have self-esteem issues???

Please clearly make your position clear and then give me links or whatever, write properly so it can be understood.

 

[IndoorCricket]

Calm down as I don't understand what you are saying. Please calmly respond so we can have a conversation.

1. Are you an apostate OR a polytheist OR both (i.e. were a Muslim previously and now are a polytheist)?

If you are not a Muslim or were never a Muslim then what difference does it make to you what Islam says about your believe? Why are you looking for approval from Islam for your belief? Do you have self-esteem issues???

Please clearly make your position clear and then give me links or whatever, write properly so it can be understood.

Why should I not care about my fellow human being? Don't just be full of yourself. You need to improve your comprehension skills first.

I stated my position clearly, "Islam is a cult" and I gave links to two Divine ordained laws from Quran, which is basis of my position. How does it matter if I were a ex-muslim or a polytheist, to this discussion. If someone is getting killed or harassed, in front of you, do you just walk away thinking it is none of your concern?

I don't need any approval from Islamists. Your response is poor and ad hominem.

adjective

1. (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
   "an ad hominem response"

Thats what people resort to when they doesn't have anything to counter the position. I never spoke about muslims or any one in particular. I was talking only about Islam.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Not here to defend anything or please anyone. Whatever is in the teachings of Islam is in the teachings of Islam.

If you want to discuss a topic and say I believe a while Islam says b then go ahead.

Those points are already raised in this thread.

Punishments for Apostates
Punishment for Gays.

 

[Champ_Pal]

You misunderstood some aspects of my post, let me give you a clear example.

Homosexuality is abominable and forbidden in Islam via scriptural and textual sources.

Since this is an agreed upon position, there is no room for modern interpretation or "re-interpretation". This also doesn't mean that Muslims are allowed to lynch and kill homosexual (vigilante Justice is forbidden)

That opens up other questions like what if someone has natural urges and this issue has nothing to do with "natural urges" because urge is a "psychological phenomena" or may be a learned behavior. The only way open according to Islam is marriage between a man and a woman and all others ways to "act on urges" whether homosexual or heterosexual are forbidden.

Where an issue is not decided by primary, secondary or tertiary scriptural and textual sources then it can be interpreted. Even when an issue is in primary, secondary or tertiary scriptural and textual sources and if it is not agreed upon, it can be differed.

Homosexuality is not one of those issues so whatever is happening in the world or society is irrelevant.

Everyone knows that Homosexuality is forbidden in all Abrahamic religions. The question is what is the punishment for it.

"Some Companions said that the punishment for homosexuality is to burn the homosexuals with fire, and some of them viewed that they should be thrown down from a high place then have stones thrown at them. Some of them thought that they should be stoned to death."

The Punishment For Homosexuality - Islam Question & Answer

Some Companions said that the punishment for homosexuality is to burn the homosexuals with fire, and some of them viewed that they should be thrown down from a high place then have stones thrown at them. Some of them thought that they should be stoned to death.

islamqa.info

The above are the punishments that Taliban dishes to its citizens who do such acts.

 

[LordJames]

Those points are already raised in this thread.

Punishments for Apostates
Punishment for Gays.

Please produce what you are "claiming" that I have said, here is my direct copy/paste

1. The punishment for Apostasy in an Islamic Caliphate is death.
2. Homosexuality is abominable and forbidden in Islam via scriptural and textual sources.

Why should I not care about my fellow human being? Don't just be full of yourself. You need to improve your comprehension skills first.

I stated my position clearly, "Islam is a cult" and I gave links to two Divine ordained laws from Quran, which is basis of my position. How does it matter if I were a ex-muslim or a polytheist, to this discussion. If someone is getting killed or harassed, in front of you, do you just walk away thinking it is none of your concern?

I don't need any approval from Islamists. Your response is poor and ad hominem.

Thats what people resort to when they doesn't have anything to counter the position. I never spoke about muslims or any one in particular. I was talking only about Islam.

Please distinguish between two issues:

1. Polytheism: Islam is based on monotheism so obviously against polytheism
2. Polytheist: Islam does not teach or mandate or imply killing polytheists, the proof is existence of millions of Hindus in India under hundreds of years of Muslim rule

 

[IndoorCricket]

Please produce what you are "claiming" that I have said, here is my direct copy/paste

1. The punishment for Apostasy in an Islamic Caliphate is death.
2. Homosexuality is abominable and forbidden in Islam via scriptural and textual sources.

Please calm yourself for the sake of your own mental health. Please distinguish between two issues:

1. Polytheism: Islam is based on monotheism so obviously against polytheism
2. Polytheist: Islam does not teach or mandate or imply killing polytheists, the proof is existence of millions of Hindus in India under hundreds of years of Muslim rule

As I said, you lack comprehension skills.

 

[LordJames]

As I said, you lack comprehension skills.

Please explain yourself, let me know in clear and concise terms what am I misunderstanding? I am human and there is possibility that I have misunderstood you.

Please take the time to make yourself clear and unambiguous. What is your point about Polytheists with regards to Islam? We are not in discussion about Polytheism because Islam is Monotheistic so obviously against Polytheism as a practice.

 

[ghalib kichlu]

Kitabul-Khiraj by Imam Abu Yusuf which talks about free market economy before the world knew what it was!

I've heard of abu yusuf, another hanafi scholar right
What I find strange is modern day scholars quoting ibn taymiyyah and avicenna in the same sentence
The same coffee houses that we romantically talk about while discussing the muslim renaissance were called a waste of time by the molvis of the time

 

[ghalib kichlu]

My position is clear.

Islam creates narrative of insiders and out siders, like a cult. Orders killing people who leaves it, like a cult.

Apostasy in Islam - Islam Question & Answer

Apostasy in Islam refers to when a Muslim becomes a disbeliever by saying a clear statement to that effect, or by uttering words which imply that disbelief, or he does something that implies that disbelief.

islamqa.info

Surah Al-Bayyinah - 1-8

Surah Al-Bayyinah(البينة) 98:1 The disbelievers from the People of the Book and the polytheists were not going to desist ˹from disbelief˺ until the clear proof came to them:

previous.quran.com

I am a polytheist and Islam calls me and my fellow religionists, worst of creatures. It's divine discrimination. This fuels terrorists to shed blood without any second thought because they are believing they are doing Gods work. This is dangerous for any civilised society.

After all your homework and research as someone who opposes islam I'm surprised you've not got the police guarding your house

 

[LordJames]

I've heard of abu yusuf, another hanafi scholar right
What I find strange is modern day scholars quoting ibn taymiyyah and avicenna in the same sentence
The same coffee houses that we romantically talk about while discussing the muslim renaissance were called a waste of time by the molvis of the time

Hanafi Madhab is based on opinions of 40 Scholars. The top 2 are Imam Abu Haneefa & Imam Abu Yusuf. Imam Abu Haneefa was offered the position of Chief Justice by Haroon Rahseed but turned it down, his most Senior student Imam Abu Yusuf accepted the position.

During the time of Haroon Rasheed, the price of commodities was rising due to drought and he wanted to know whether the prices of common commodities (onions in this case) should be restricted or left to the market so Imam Abu Yusuf wrote Kitabul-Khiraj (Book of [agricultural] taxation) around 795 (I think) on managing economy and dedicated it to the Caliph, read page 1 and then last paragraph of page 7:

https://dn790000.ca.archive.org/0/items/KAAAARAAAAAAJ/KAAAARAAAAAAJ.pdf

This is an extremely high level Government policy book and not needed to be taught in normal studies.

 

[ghalib kichlu]

Hanafi Madhab is based on opinions of 40 Scholars. The top 2 are Imam Abu Haneefa & Imam Abu Yusuf. Imam Abu Haneefa was offered the position of Chief Justice by Haroon Rahseed but turned it down, his most Senior student Imam Abu Yusuf accepted the position.

During the time of Haroon Rasheed, the price of commodities was rising due to drought and he wanted to know whether the prices of common commodities (onions in this case) should be restricted or left to the market so Imam Abu Yusuf wrote Kitabul-Khiraj (Book of [agricultural] taxation) around 795 (I think) on managing economy and dedicated it to the Caliph, read page 1 and then last paragraph of page 7:

https://dn790000.ca.archive.org/0/items/KAAAARAAAAAAJ/KAAAARAAAAAAJ.pdf

This is an extremely high level Government policy book and not needed to be taught in normal studies.

The abbasids were the ones who introduced/supported 'kalam' , right?

 

[LordJames]

Homosexuality is abominable and forbidden in Islam via scriptural and textual sources.

Explanation:
​

• This is about action of homosexuality and not feelings because nobody is responsible for feelings, it’s the actions which matter.​
• If someone practices homosexuality they do not leave Islam or become Ex-Muslim but they are committing a “Major Sin” in Islam and there are many things classed as “Major Sin” e.g. fornication, adultery, cheating on your spouse (in a heterosexual relationship), engaged in usury based financial transactions etc​
• Islam doesn’t allow vigilantism and for people (Muslims or Non-Muslims) to go around lynching, beating, harming or killing homosexuals.​
• In Islamic Caliphate the actions of homosexuality would be tried in a Court and when convicted punishable (by death) in many cases.​
• In societies where Muslims are minorities, they will continue to express their views in a democratic manner against homosexuality.​

For Muslims:

No need for me to explain myself as there is plenty of evidence from Quraan and Hadeeth

For (Non-Muslims):

The sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman and proliferation of human race, upbringing of children in a human society is of paramount importance in Islam.

We can look at homosexuality through two ethical ways so let’s explore both foundationally:

Ontological Ethics (Immanuel Kant): The idea of something being categorically wrong e.g. lying will always be wrong no matter what society does and even if death resulted due to not lying.

Homosexuality is wrong according to Ontological principle because if everyone practiced homosexuality, human race won’t be able to procreate and populations will be in decline, this is called “Categorical imperative” and example of understanding would be suicide i.e. if everyone killed themselves then there will be so much killing that society will no longer exist!

Utilitarian (Jeremy Bantham): Free to do whatever you want as long as you don’t harm anyone. The idea is to go greatest good to the greatest number of people in the society.

The argument Muslims make is as follows:​

• How do you define that there is “no harm” being done to others? We have medical evidence which suggests that certain diseases are higher in homosexuals and due to it there is disproportionate burden on the medical system.​
• Even if you take the harm principle out, we have overwhelming data available which shows that children are disadvantaged being brought up in homosexual relationships.​

Don’t argue that Actor A or Celebrity B are in a homosexual relationship, present your point of views with facts and ethical underpinning.


This is a pretty simple argument to understand why Homosexuality is wrong but if you have problems reading, listen to it on YouTube

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

1. Prohibiting women from driving has nothing to do with Islam. In fact, prohibiting women from driving (for their protection) but letting them get into a Taxi or a private car with a driver (stranger) is stupid! Take the issue with Saudia
2. There are no specific dress requirements for non-Muslim men or women in Islam, again take it with Saudia. Muslims ask non-Muslims to dress decently and appropriately (the same as Sikhs do when visiting Gurdwara as I have experienced many many times)
3. It is expressly forbidden in Islam to mock or insult someone's religion or deity, if your religion or deity has been mocked then it was by the actions of an individual and in contradiction with the teachings of Islam.

Muslims says that Islam is the true religion and there are a billion on this Earth so everywhere you go and do you will encounter Islam and Muslims so I suggest that don't let Muslims live in your head rent-free.

As I said all of it is in theoretical. In practical reality the Islamist agenda is to insult, subjugate and dominate other religions. You can say Islam is the one true religion amongst yourselves. Don't force this view upon us and ask us to convert to Islam at every single opportunity.

 

[LordJames]

As I said all of it is in theoretical. In practical reality the Islamist agenda is to insult, subjugate and dominate other religions. You can say Islam is the one true religion amongst yourselves. Don't force this view upon us and ask us to convert to Islam at every single opportunity.

Please give textual evidence and examples.

If what I am saying is theoretical, it should be easy for you to prove me wrong so Go Ahead.

Thanks

 

[uppercut]

There is a lot of misunderstanding on the forum (from both Muslims and Non-Muslims) about Islam and I believe that some facts need to be stated on the boundaries.

Before I begin, I would like to request everyone who has a disagreement on the matter to clearly state and distinguish their personal opinion from Islamic law i.e. you are free to state your personal opinion but do not conflate Islamic law with your personal opinion. If you wish to state an Islamic principle, please provide evidence from Islamic sources.

Secondly, what practically happens in any Muslim country (Pakistan, Afghanistan or any other) does not necessarily represent Islam or even in Non-Muslim countries as a “custom” adopted by Muslims e.g. in India there is a huge issue and controversy prohibiting women from visiting “Holy Shrines” while Islam permits women to visit “Mosque (i.e. places of actual worship)” which are far superior to random burial sites. Saudi Arabia prohibiting women from driving (now allowed) for decades has nothing to do with Islam!

Thirdly, the two Holy cities of Makkah & Madina are sacred and they have a special status so some of the rules which I describe do not apply due to a “special status”, I will give you two examples which I have witnessed, and others can easily verify to understand the point:
​

• Church of the Nativity (Bethlehem) forces visitors to cover and no food/drink items are allowed inside​
• Many areas in Vatican force both men and women to cover knees and shoulders​

Those who disagree are spoken to and then denied access if they do not comply.

Prohibitions such as Alcohol or consumption of pork etc are applicable to Muslims and do not apply to Non-Muslims. Historically (Ottoman Empire) and if we had an Islamic Caliphate today, non-Muslims will be allowed to consume alcohol and/or pork. If a “Muslim Vigilante” harms the Alcohol/Pork business or belongings of a “Non-Muslim” then they will be punished and the loses will be compensated. Muslims who consume Alcohol or pork will be punished according to “Ta’dheer” which is a section of Islamic law where punishments are set by mutual consultation e.g. the punishment may differ in Pakistan to UAE or Saudi Arabia etc.

Non-Muslim women have no requirement in Islam to wear Hijab or Abaya (this is Saudi local law). Historically (Ottoman Empire) and if we had an Islamic Caliphate then Non-Muslims will be held to a decent and sensible moral standard similar to what Vatican requires.

Non-Muslim places of worship are protected in Islam but the running of the administrative affairs is left to Non-Muslims.

Social rights and charitable benefits (education, Healthcare, benefits) are the same for Muslims and Non-Muslims in an Islamic Caliphate.

Non-Muslims are not subject to Islamic law and their affairs are decided according to their own legal code, they can optionally choose to and voluntarily subject themselves to Islamic judicial system. I have been told by an Attorney the UAE law today has such provisions and some Non-Muslims opt for it in cases of child custody etc.

Non-Muslims living under an Islamic Caliphate are charged a mandated Jizya (Protection Tax) which is how their protection, security, (separate legal system) are maintained. This is the cost of living under Islamic Caliphate. The Muslim pay ZAKAT & USHER (agricultural tax) but the Non-Muslims are exempt from it. So both parties (Muslims + Non-Muslims) pay Taxes (Muslims pay Zakat+ Usher while Non-Muslims pay Jizya).

Islam prohibits monopoly and profits on natural resources so gas, water, electricity will be distributed to all citizens on cost regardless of religion.

Muslims are also subject to hudood (punitive punishments based on textual evidence) for certain crimes but they do not apply to Non-Muslims e.g. if a Non-Muslim is caught in a consensual sexual relationship with his/her neighbor, the matter will be referred to their local judicial system while the Muslim will be charged and tried under Islamic legal system. Both Muslims are Non-Muslims guilty of rape will be tried under the same jurisdiction and punished according to “Ta’dheer” which means the punishment will differ according to what has been agreed.

All Muslims at all levels are encouraged to give Dawah to Non-Muslims towards Islam. This does not mean shoving Islam in their face (its counterproductive anyways) but demonstrating Islam and there are million ways of doing it.

This is done by millions of Muslims around the world everyday, an example from a few weeks ago in the local community….A practicing Muslim woman got fired from her job, her manager called her into the office and gave her notice so she read [2:156] out aloud and remined calm. The Manager said that in 22 years, he has never seen such a reaction and what did she say so she explained. The Manager was curious about Islam and asked for a copy of the Qur’an to read…This is Dawah

Millions of Muslims around the world go about their business at work, schools etc and display Islam, some do it intentionally while others do it unintentionally while not drinking or eating pork etc or wearing Hijab or having a Beard…Some talk about it, answer questions etc while others don’t …This is Dawah.

Dawah has its principles and its wisdom and to boast about it OR put someone on the backfoot (by publicly announcing that he/she was asking questions or was interested in Islam without their permission and consent) is ridiculous and counterproductive. In my college days, a local guy who was part of a very popular band started looking into Islam and after a while accepted Islam and it was major news on the campus and it came to everyone as a shock. Yesterday, a (trump backing MAGA) woman accepted Islam but she has been sending tweets every few days about Islam so she chose to advertise what she was doing.

I was traveling, and the Assistant Chief of Police in a major US city (blond hair, blue eyed guy) was a Muslim and told me, otherwise nobody would know.

There are many YouTube channels who answer these sorts of objections about Islam and there are many courses on Dawah, many Muslims specialize in specific areas…Dawah has principles and the goal behind Dawah is to "impress someone" to pique their curiosity about Islam and making boastful public claims that "Harbajhan Singh" was close to accepting Islam while publicly putting a practicing Sikh on the defensive is IDIOTIC!

Lastly, I would like to state my reasons for opening this subject. I do not know why Shahid Afridi, Inzamamul-Haq, Rizwan and others outwardly display their Islam and advertise their pictures being taken while praying etc when millions of Muslims around the world simply pray and move on. Hashim Amla, Moeen Ali and many others just practice they do take a stand on Palestine, Alcohol etc and deal with it in their stride. Having a Beard or not having a Beard has no bearing or connection with the ability to bowl fast or spin or bat! ​

what is the position of Islamic world w.r.t secularism ?

 

[Red-Indian]

You misunderstood some aspects of my post, let me give you a clear example.

Homosexuality is abominable and forbidden in Islam via scriptural and textual sources.

Since this is an agreed upon position, there is no room for modern interpretation or "re-interpretation". This also doesn't mean that Muslims are allowed to lynch and kill homosexual (vigilante Justice is forbidden)

That opens up other questions like what if someone has natural urges and this issue has nothing to do with "natural urges" because urge is a "psychological phenomena" or may be a learned behavior. The only way open according to Islam is marriage between a man and a woman and all others ways to "act on urges" whether homosexual or heterosexual are forbidden.

Where an issue is not decided by primary, secondary or tertiary scriptural and textual sources then it can be interpreted. Even when an issue is in primary, secondary or tertiary scriptural and textual sources and if it is not agreed upon, it can be differed.

Homosexuality is not one of those issues so whatever is happening in the world or society is irrelevant.

Islamic law is structured around maintaining public decency, societal ties ( family or tribal), and order.

Theoretically one could commit adultery to their hearts content or have a gay relationship within their homes. But it is a problem in the public domain and infront of witnesses.

The laws around that won't change.

The laws around blasphemy will change and I don't think people will consider apostasy a punishable offence in the near future.

I'm well aware that the fundamental concepts of morality in Islam are not going to change. If adultery, homosexuality, blasphemy and apostasy are forbidden, they'll stay forbidden.

What I'm hoping will change is the interpretations of the punishments and who's allowed to implement them and what it takes.

We've already moved from it's every Muslim's responsibility to act when he/she sees them to only legal authorities can act. From there, I hope the next step is only god can punish them...he sees all and will deliver justice in the next world.

 

[uppercut]

Please give textual evidence and examples.

If what I am saying is theoretical, it should be easy for you to prove me wrong so Go Ahead.

Thanks

Just look at the empirical evidence. For instance the entire middle east is now almost nearly devoid of Jews and Christians. Lebanon which was a majority Christian country up until the 1970s is now a majority Muslim country ans ofcourse a basket country.

If you go back in time you will find that the story is almost exactly the same for Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh etc.

And I can assure you there was no peaceful Dawah involved in those countries.


BTW What happened to the Idols that were once in the Kaabah ?

 

[Bhaijaan]

So in a Muslim country, if i as a non Muslim openly denounce Islam as a false religion, call for mosques to be destroyed in the name of my truer religion, call the Islamic prophet false, start a campaign to convert Muslims to my religion by telling that my religion is the one true religion, openly wish for my religion to take over that country and the world one day.

How would I be dealt with as per Quran?

I am curious to know.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Please give textual evidence and examples.

If what I am saying is theoretical, it should be easy for you to prove me wrong so Go Ahead.

Thanks

Now you are trolling. Do I need to provide evidence of heads of Sikhs being cut for not converting to Islam ?
These evil Islamists are celebrated and revered by Pakistanis. Islam's subjugation is well documented.
Asia Bibi, Poor Hindus in Pakistan who are killed for forced to convert..

"
For most of the Mughal Empire, Sikh Gurus were persecuted. Guru Arjan (5th Guru), for instance, was executed by the hands of Chandu Shah.

When Kashmiri Pandits were being forcefully converted to Islam by Aurangzeb, Guru Tegh Bahadur (9th Guru) were beheaded for refusing to convert by Aurangzeb at Chandni Chowk in Delhi. Fellow devotees Bhai Mati Das, Bhai Sati Das and Bhai Dayala were also tortured and executed, while Guru Tegh Bahadur were forced to watch.

Guru Gobind Singh (10th Guru) formed the Khalsa—the Army of the Akal Purakh (Immortal) Two of Guru Gobind Singh's younger sons, Sahibzaade Fateh Singh (aged 7) and Zorawar Singh (aged 9), were bricked up alive by Mughal Governor Wazir Khan in Sirhind.

 

[Bhaijaan]

So in a Muslim country, if i as a non Muslim openly denounce Islam as a false religion, call for mosques to be destroyed in the name of my truer religion, call the Islamic prophet a fraud, start a campaign to convert Muslims to my religion by telling that my religion is the one true religion, openly wish for my religion to take over that country and the world one day.

How would I be dealt with as per Quran?

I am curious to know.

Please answer brother.
Please educate

 

[LordJames]

Now you are trolling. Do I need to provide evidence of heads of Sikhs being cut for not converting to Islam ?
These evil Islamists are celebrated and revered by Pakistanis. Islam's subjugation is well documented.
Asia Bibi, Poor Hindus in Pakistan who are killed for forced to convert..

"
For most of the Mughal Empire, Sikh Gurus were persecuted. Guru Arjan (5th Guru), for instance, was executed by the hands of Chandu Shah.

When Kashmiri Pandits were being forcefully converted to Islam by Aurangzeb, Guru Tegh Bahadur (9th Guru) were beheaded for refusing to convert by Aurangzeb at Chandni Chowk in Delhi. Fellow devotees Bhai Mati Das, Bhai Sati Das and Bhai Dayala were also tortured and executed, while Guru Tegh Bahadur were forced to watch.

Guru Gobind Singh (10th Guru) formed the Khalsa—the Army of the Akal Purakh (Immortal) Two of Guru Gobind Singh's younger sons, Sahibzaade Fateh Singh (aged 7) and Zorawar Singh (aged 9), were bricked up alive by Mughal Governor Wazir Khan in Sirhind.

I appreciate you calming down for the sake of your own health. Now, provide me authentic sources from history and your religious sources because we are discussing history here and not religion.

Guru Arjun:

Guru Arjun was "allegedly" killed by Jehangir and here is BBC report on Mughals & Jehangir

BBC - Religions - Islam: Mughal Empire (1500s, 1600s)

Learn about the Mughal Empire that ruled most of India and Pakistan in the 16th and 17th centuries.

www.bbc.co.uk

The Mughals were Muslims who ruled a country with a large Hindu majority. However for much of their empire they allowed Hindus to reach senior government or military positions.

The Mughals brought many changes to India:

• Centralised government that brought together many smaller kingdoms
• Delegated government with respect for human rights
• Persian art and culture
• Persian language mixed with Arabic and Hindi to create Urdu
• Periods of great religious tolerance
• A style of architecture (e.g. the Taj Mahal)
• A system of education that took account of pupils' needs and culture

Jahangir​

Akbar's son, Emperor Jahangir, readopted Islam as the state religion and continued the policy of religious toleration. His court included large numbers of Indian Hindus, Persian Shi'a and Sufis and members of local heterodox Islamic sects.

Jahangir also began building the magnificent monuments and gardens by which the Mughals are chiefly remembered today, importing hundreds of Persian architects to build palaces and create magnificent gardens.

Jahangir's approach was typified by the development of Urdu as the official language of Empire. Urdu uses an Arabic script, but Persian vocabulary and Hindi grammatical structure.

In short, Jehangir wasn't particularly religious and had no interest in converting anyone to Islam and there is no authentic record of anything of that nature in history. This is a myth which has been fed to you.

Arjun Singh was killed by Jehangir due to Arjun Singh providing support to Khusru who rebelled against the king

https://punjab.global.ucsb.edu/sites/default/files/sitefiles/journals/volume12/no1/3_singh.pdf

There is not much Islamic angle to this history as many were killed due to treason or supporting those incited treason.

Forced Conversion of Hindus & Aurangzeb

Once again, instead of "WhatsApp history" we look at what Aurangezeb actually did

Start reading Aurangzeb | Audrey Truschke

Read an excerpt from Aurangzeb: The Life and Legacy of India's Most Controversial King - Audrey Truschke

www.sup.org

Over the centuries, many commentators have spread the myth of the bigoted, evil Aurangzeb on the basis of shockingly thin evidence. Many false ideas still mar popular memory of Aurangzeb, including that he massacred millions of Hindus and destroyed thousands of temples. Neither of these commonly believed “facts” is supported by historical evidence, although some scholars have attempted, usually in bad faith, to provide an alleged basis for such tall tales. More common than bald-faced lies, however, have been biased interpretations of cherry-picked episodes selected with the unabashed goal of supporting a foregone rebuke of Aurangzeb. For instance, detractors trumpet that Aurangzeb destroyed certain temples without acknowledging that he issued many orders protecting Hindu temples and granted stipends and land to Brahmins. They denounce that he restricted the celebration of Holi without mentioning that he also clamped down on Muharram and Eid festivities. They omit altogether that Aurangzeb consulted with Hindu ascetics on health matters and employed more Hindus in his administration than any prior Mughal ruler by a substantial margin. We cannot reconcile these less-frequently reported but historically important aspects of Aurangzeb’s rule with the fictitious image of this ruler as propelled by religious-based hate.


Of course, no one would contend that Aurangzeb was without faults. It is not difficult to identify specific actions taken by Aurangzeb that fail to meet modern democratic, egalitarian, and human rights standards. Aurangzeb ruled in a premodern world of kingdoms and empires, and his ideas about violence, state authority, and everything else were conditioned by the time and place in which he lived. Aurangzeb’s contemporaries included such kings as Charles II of England, Louis XIV of France, and the Ottoman Sultan Suleiman II. No one asserts that these historical figures were “good rulers” under present-day norms because it makes little sense to assess the past by contemporary criteria. The aim of historical study is something else entirely.

Also read Aurgzeb: Bad Ruler or Bad History?

Unlike what you think, Mugghals were not religious at all and did not make any attempts to foster or grow Islam. In fact, in hunderds of years of Islamic rule there was not a single Mughal who performed Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah). Mughuls were an empire and they were "Muslims" and like any other empire, they put down rebellions and dealt with treason or any other perceived threats to their empire. This was not a democracy but a Monarchy and gross violations of human rights did occur.

What you are showing at best is that "Muslims" violated principles of Islam you have yet to show Islam teaching them to do these things.

In terms of Jizya, I have lready addressed it in the opening post.