Dawah, Islamic Law, Punishments & Limits in Islam

[Champ_Pal]

First Answer:

Allah states that Allah is not comparable to any creation (He or She or otherwise)

Surah Ash-Shuraa - 11 - Quran.com

˹He is˺ the Originator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you spouses from among yourselves, and ˹made˺ mates for cattle ˹as well˺—multiply...

quran.com

˹He is˺ the Originator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you spouses from among yourselves, and ˹made˺ mates for cattle ˹as well˺—multiplying you ˹both˺. There is nothing like Him, for He ˹alone˺ is the All-Hearing, All-Seeing.

Simple words which means Genders don't apply.

Second Answer:

According to your logic if the Masculine pronoun is used and Allah is Masculine THEN Feminine is used for Tree so using your logic, is Tree Feminine?

Keep punching the straw man. Who cares what Allah's gender is. In Holy Quran, Allah addresses himself as a he. So I called him a he.

You are avoiding the question of how Rain and Cloud formed. Does it naturally form in nature or some magical power is throwing buckets of water down and throwing hail at unsuspecting people on Earth?

 

[LordJames]

Keep punching the straw man. Who cares what Allah's gender is. In Holy Quran, Allah addresses himself as a he. So I called him a he.

You are avoiding the question of how Rain and Cloud formed. Does it naturally form in nature or some magical power is throwing buckets of water down and throwing hail at unsuspecting people on Earth?

Then by your logic is a "Tree" Feminine?

Answer that OR accept that presenting pronouns is not the way to determine gender and I will move to your next point.

 

[Stewie]

You say these are Talibani rules but a vast majority of it is interpreted as regular Islamic laws in Islamic countries . You can deny it all you want - it doesnt change the fact. And before you say x or y rule is there in Hinduism - man I dont know about every rule but if there is something thats wrong - its wrong period. Just bcos it was written in some ancient Hindu scripture - doesnt mean it’s gospel truth. And a country's laws should overrule all these religious idiosyncrasies and supersede them. Religion should never be the basis for laws

Most laws in the world have their basis in religion. That’s the truth whether you like it or not.

 

[Champ_Pal]

So you have no evidence to present that inorganic matter transformed into organic matter.

You have no evidence for your opinion

THEN

Why are you rejecting a Creator?

Just because Science does not know how life itself originated, it does not mean we start believing that after Earth was created, man was created. No prehistoric life ever came before man?

We have fossil evidence for evolution. But we still have no evidence on how life originated as a single celled organism.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Then by your logic is a "Tree" Feminine?

Answer that OR accept that presenting pronouns is not the way to determine gender and I will move to your next point.

Again, who cares about the gender of God when there is no evidence of God to begin with.

If God wanted to call a tree a He, he would have called. If he was all knowledgeable, then he could have called the tree an "It". God could've addressed himself as "It". But God chose to address himself as "He". Who am I to tell what God is, when he himself is calling himself as a He?

I am not going to post further on the gender of God. I don't care if God is a He or She or non-binary. It does not matter to me when there is no evidence for the existence of God.

 

[LordJames]

Just because Science does not know how life itself originated, it does not mean we start believing that after Earth was created, man was created. No prehistoric life ever came before man?

We have fossil evidence for evolution. But we still have no evidence on how life originated as a single celled organism.

Contradiction 1:

1. Allah is Masculine because Masculine pronoun is used in the Qur'aan
2. Refuses to answer why Tree is not Feminine because Feminine Pronoun is used in the Quraan

Contradiction 2:

No evidence means that you can't say either way.

1. In 1 sentence you are saying that evidence does not exist to fully explain creation
2. In 2nd sentence you are saying that Creator is not responsible for creation

 

[LordJames]

Again, who cares about the gender of God when there is no evidence of God to begin with.

If God wanted to call a tree a He, he would have called. If he was all knowledgeable, then he could have called the tree an "It". God could've addressed himself as "It". But God chose to address himself as "He". Who am I to tell what God is, when he himself is calling himself as a He?

I am not going to post further on the gender of God. I don't care if God is a He or She or non-binary. It does not matter to me when there is no evidence for the existence of God.

Thats not what you claimed!

You clearly Allah to be "HE" and provided evidence from Quraan.

You didn't say that Allah doesn't exist or do you care.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Contradiction 1:

1. Allah is Masculine because Masculine pronoun is used in the Qur'aan
2. Refuses to answer why Tree is not Feminine because Feminine Pronoun is used in the Quraan

Contradiction 2:

No evidence means that you can't say either way.

1. In 1 sentence you are saying that evidence does not exist to fully explain creation
2. In 2nd sentence you are saying that Creator is not responsible for creation

Duh!!!

We will find the answers some day with proper evidence. May be not in our life time.

You are harping on the gender of Allah. Do you think your God is unaware to call himself as a He? He called a tree as feminine. It is your God calling it. Not me. I used the same gender that your Quran used and Allah used on himself.

You are strawmaning the whole thing and escaping from the Rain and Hail formation. Which one you believe in? The Quran one or the scientific explanation?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Lol...the way you shared video I thought science has discovered a new path for the pouring of rain droplets. But sad for you it still drops from clouds

Brother Champ pal mission unsuccessful

Rain

Hail

Are you ready to leave your religion?

My offer still stands and you have the eternity to prove it wronh

 

[Stewie]

I did not claim. It is in your Quran. ALlah addresses himself as He. Do you think Allah does not know what he is talking?

there is no neutral gender in Arabic if that's your whole argument. In English we have he/she/it. In Arabic we do not. Even in Urdu we do not.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The jury is still out on how life itself started. We may or may not find an answer for it in our life time. That does not mean that we believe in fairy tales of a magical power creating cow or dog or goat etc.

Interesting then you spend time daily attacking something that doesn’t exist .

So everything in Hinduism relating to all powerful creator is not true also ?

 

[Stewie]

Just because Science does not know how life itself originated, it does not mean we start believing that after Earth was created, man was created. No prehistoric life ever came before man?

We have fossil evidence for evolution. But we still have no evidence on how life originated as a single celled organism.

You don't want to believe, that's fine. But you cannot refute our belief either using science as a weapon now, can you? You cannot prove or DISPROVE the existence of God.

 

[Stewie]

Interesting then you spend time daily attacking something that doesn’t exist .

So everything in Hinduism relating to all powerful creator is not true also ?

he will tell you he is an atheist. But he rarely questions Hinduism beliefs here. LOL

 

[deltexas]

Most laws in the world have their basis in religion. That’s the truth whether you like it or not.

Not true in secular democratic countries. Yes in the Islamic countries its based on religion. And again thats the truth whether you like it or not . What or how many laws in the USA or if you are in the UK or any secular democratic Western valued country have basis in religion ? Moral compass yes but solely on religion ?? Can you let me know ?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

@Stewie and @LordJames you guys are too bad. Look what you have done reduced brother Champ pal to a linguistic man rather than a scientist

there is no neutral gender in Arabic if that's your whole argument. In English we have he/she/it. In Arabic we do not. Even in Urdu we do not.

 

[KingKhanWC]

he will tell you he is an atheist. But he rarely questions Hinduism beliefs here. LOL

He should admit he’s a Hindu if he is one . The problem is it’s easier to attack , than defend . Esp when you’re arguments are so poor .


In my personal opinion , there is no such thing as an atheist.

 

[Stewie]

Not true in secular democratic countries. Yes in the Islamic countries its based on religion. And again thats the truth whether you like it or not . What or how many laws in the USA or if you are in the UK or any secular democratic Western valued country have basis in religion ? Moral compass yes but solely on religion ?? Can you let me know ?

you guys have weird definition of secular democratic countries, which differ from how you define that in the west. I think you are mistaken either way. no matter which definition you use, there are religious laws everywhere, whether in a small amount or large scale, they are always there.

 

[Champ_Pal]

You don't want to believe, that's fine. But you cannot refute our belief either using science as a weapon now, can you? You cannot prove or DISPROVE the existence of God.

Existence of God cannot be proven or disproven as of now. But we can safely say that some of the things that God claims to be doing is disproved using science already. In which case, we have to agree that God was lying when he claimed he makes the rain and hail and rains it on earth.

 

[Stewie]

Existence of God cannot be proven or disproven as of now. But we can safely say that some of the things that God claims to be doing is disproved using science already. In which case, we have to agree that God was lying when he claimed he makes the rain and hail and rains it on earth.

First of all if you believe or admit there is a possibility of a higher power as God, why would that higher power who created all life lie? Makes no sense.

You are also taking the claim too literally. He means he created the mechanism for everything. You and your wife conceive a child and God can take credit for creating life, but that does not mean you guys did not conceive your child.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

You say these are Talibani rules but a vast majority of it is interpreted as regular Islamic laws in Islamic countries . You can deny it all you want - it doesnt change the fact. And before you say x or y rule is there in Hinduism - man I dont know about every rule but if there is something thats wrong - its wrong period. Just bcos it was written in some ancient Hindu scripture - doesnt mean its gospel truth. And a country's laws should overrule all these religious idiosyncrasies and supersede them. Religion should never be the basis for laws

I don't know enough about Hinduism to mention about their rules in detail.

As I have got older I have realized that it is unfair for me to pluck verses from other religions and pretend I can understand them to the same level as those that have understood the tradition in detail.

So as for what Hinduism says my preferred method is to listen to what Hindus say rather than come to my own conclusions.

For example, despite my own preconceived ideas about caste system when some Hindu friends here said it's not part of their religion I accept their word. If I find link in Google and pretend I am an expert and they are wrong and I know better then it's disrespectful.

I would expect others to behave in a similar way.

As your part on Talibani laws which part of it is the same across the board? I ask you respectfully how many Muslim countries you have visited to see these laws in action?

For example Ban on girls education is only in Afghanistan.

 

[Champ_Pal]

First of all if you believe or admit there is a possibility of a higher power as God, why would that higher power who created all life lie? Makes no sense.

You are also taking the claim too literally. He means he created the mechanism for everything. You and your wife conceive a child and God can take credit for creating life, but that does not mean you guys did not conceive your child.

Why would God lie? Because we know God lied as we have evidence and understanding of how natural phenomenon of Rain and Hail happen.

If God was all knowing and perfect, then he would know these little things and explained it in his final and eternal message for humans. But we know it is not so.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Existence of God cannot be proven or disproven as of now. But we can safely say that some of the things that God claims to be doing is disproved using science already. In which case, we have to agree that God was lying when he claimed he makes the rain and hail and rains it on earth.

lol if you accept a creator , everything needed for creation is because of him . This is simple logic .

i assume it’s the same principle in Hinduism

 

[Stewie]

Why would God lie? Because we know God lied as we have evidence and understanding of how natural phenomenon of Rain and Hail happen.

If God was all knowing and perfect, then he would know these little things and explained it in his final and eternal message for humans. But we know it is not so.

you failed to see my point. God has no reason to lie if he is all powerful.

Humans lie to achieve whatever. God has no such limitations so He has no need to lie. What you percieve as a lie, is a misunderstanding of what He is trying to communicate.

 

[Stewie]

lol if you accept a creator , everything needed for creation is because of him . This is simple logic .

i assume it’s the same principle in Hinduism

he has thrown the concept of multiple Almightys in the past. such as Jews have their own, Christians have their own, we have our own, etc. Its like they are all sitting up there playing poker and in between breaks decide to create their own tribes on the planet. That's what he thinks.

 

[deltexas]

you guys have weird definition of secular democratic countries, which differ from how you define that in the west. I think you are mistaken either way. no matter which definition you use, there are religious laws everywhere, whether in a small amount or large scale, they are always there.

Again do you have an example ?? I have been in the US most of my life - so wanted to see what religious laws are applied here in the courts or in the gov laws ? You say there are many - can you just list 2 or 3 ??

 

[deltexas]

He should admit he’s a Hindu if he is one . The problem is it’s easier to attack , than defend . Esp when you’re arguments are so poor .


In my personal opinion , there is no such thing as an atheist.

And why ?? If someones an an atheist - I dont care. Thats his personal belief and each one can have their own. The problem is when it is enforced on others and shoved down and laws and rules are created based on that ideology.

 

[deltexas]

First of all if you believe or admit there is a possibility of a higher power as God, why would that higher power who created all life lie? Makes no sense.

You are also taking the claim too literally. He means he created the mechanism for everything. You and your wife conceive a child and God can take credit for creating life, but that does not mean you guys did not conceive your child.

The word gymnastics going on here , by God !!

 

[LordJames]

Why would God lie? Because we know God lied as we have evidence and understanding of how natural phenomenon of Rain and Hail happen.

If God was all knowing and perfect, then he would know these little things and explained it in his final and eternal message for humans. But we know it is not so.

The purpose of life on Earth for humans is a Test.

God has given you information, told you the consequences and then free will to choose.

God has not mandated a choice for you and there is no compulsion in Islam.

In other words, "Islam does not force convert" anyone.

 

[Stewie]

The word gymnastics going on here , by God !!

You have to be a native speaker of Arabic or Muslim to understand this. If you are not, spend some time learning or understanding the text. There is a lot of such stuff in religious books that you will consider word gymnastics because it does not fit today's verbal standards or modern linguistics. I don't think there is anything untoward about it. They key is to understand the spirit of the what is being said. If you come with your mind already made up that this is all untrue and a lie, then of course everything will appear as word gymnastics to you.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Why would God lie? Because we know God lied as we have evidence and understanding of how natural phenomenon of Rain and Hail happen.

If God was all knowing and perfect, then he would know these little things and explained it in his final and eternal message for humans. But we know it is not so.

Lol...what a flawed logic. For instance check the examples below:

Question: How to hit a ball with bat?

Two types of answer

1. First put your right hand close to the upper part of bat handle, then put your left on the tag end of end. Then watch for the incoming bowler's wrist movement. After the ball is released towards you adjust your foot movement accordingly. Then bent your arms to a particular and hit the ball with open face of bat.

2. Watch closely for the ball and whack it hard.


Now brother Champ pal are the above two things contradictory. . Please tell me am I lying here or not.

 

[deltexas]

I don't know enough about Hinduism to mention about their rules in detail.

As I have got older I have realized that it is unfair for me to pluck verses from other religions and pretend I can understand them to the same level as those that have understood the tradition in detail.

So as for what Hinduism says my preferred method is to listen to what Hindus say rather than come to my own conclusions.

For example, despite my own preconceived ideas about caste system when some Hindu friends here said it's not part of their religion I accept their word. If I find link in Google and pretend I am an expert and they are wrong and I know better then it's disrespectful.

I would expect others to behave in a similar way.

As your part on Talibani laws which part of it is the same across the board? I ask you respectfully how many Muslim countries you have visited to see these laws in action?

For example Ban on girls education is only in Afghanistan.

Again if questioning rationality is an issue , dont know what to say. thats why said there are things in Hinduism and other religions like Christianity that are not rational. And people can question them and thats how it should be. And I see nothing wrong. If you dont want to question anything at all in these books or any rationality then I have no answer. They are just "guidelines" to be a a good person and human being. Good principles. And if some people want to enforce them by making them into laws - I am totally against it.
And regarding visiting Muslim countries or other countries - dont want to be boastful but I have travelled to dozens of both. Its just that I like traveling and visiting. Infact if you want answers to any of the Islamic countries or other countries wrt real life there - I dont mind sharing my experiences and thoughts. Have been to atheist countries like China and Russia as well. And visited Saudi as part on a foreigners group trip due to the oil companies. Foreigners are so shielded in Saudi with their own enclosed compounds and a lot of stuff allowed that probably would be blasphemous for the local public. And believe it or not - a few of my Pak origin friends are asking me to visit Pak with them as a US citizen. Maybe I will take the plunge , who knows ??

 

[Stewie]

Again do you have an example ?? I have been in the US most of my life - so wanted to see what religious laws are applied here in the courts or in the gov laws ? You say there are many - can you just list 2 or 3 ??

Look up Texas alcohol sale laws. There is no sale of alcohol during certain hours on Sundays, due to Church. These laws have their roots in the Prohibition era, which in itself was driven by religion.

Nearly all state constitutions refer to God or the divine, so does Declaration of Independence, Pledge of Allegiance, and if I am not mistaken even on the currency there is a mention of God.

 

[Stewie]

No to mention Christmas being a holiday in the US.

 

[LordJames]

Question for Atheists:

Please provide a rational and logical explanation for infinite regress?

Thanks

 

[deltexas]

Look up Texas alcohol sale laws. There is no sale of alcohol during certain hours on Sundays, due to Church. These laws have their roots in the Prohibition era, which in itself was driven by religion.

Nearly all state constitutions refer to God or the divine, so does Declaration of Independence, Pledge of Allegiance, and if I am not mistaken even on the currency there is a mention of God.

Does it apply to your day to day life ? Men and women being segregated ? Different laws and regressive approach to women ? Religion is not taught in public schools. If you dont drink alcohol no one is forcing you. Pledge to allegiance God etc - yes they say that. If you dont want to say that do they say blasphemy ? Bro - you can do all your word gymnastics you want and if you want to live in an Islamic nations with its laws thats fine. Its just an issue when they want to force their opinions when they come to other Western countries. Look up hamtromck Michigan

 

[Stewie]

Does it apply to your day to day life ? Men and women being segregated ? Different laws and regressive approach to women ? Religion is not taught in public schools. If you dont drink alcohol no one is forcing you. Pledge to allegiance God etc - yes they say that. If you dont want to say that do they say blasphemy ? Bro - you can do all your word gymnastics you want and if you want to live in an Islamic nations with its laws thats fine. Its just an issue when they want to force their opinions when they come to other Western countries. Look up hamtromck Michigan

You asked me what law religious laws are applied and I answered the question, provided you with examples.

What's your long "word salad" about? I have no idea about any of it.

 

[Stewie]

By the way religion might not be taught in US public schools but intelligent design is. How do atheists feel about that?

 

[deltexas]

By the way religion might not be taught in US public schools but intelligent design is. How do atheists feel about that?

I think they are wrong. They should imbibe the madrasa school of learning where there is no scope for intellectual design thought process.

 

[KingKhanWC]

And why ?? If someones an an atheist - I dont care. Thats his personal belief and each one can have their own. The problem is when it is enforced on others and shoved down and laws and rules are created based on that ideology.

Nobody should force anything on anyone in Islam , it’s defies the idea of belief itself.

All answers are in the Quran .

10:12

Whenever someone is touched by hardship, they cry out to Us, whether lying on their side, sitting, or standing. But when We relieve their hardship, they return to their old ways as if they had never cried to Us to remove any hardship! This is how the misdeeds of the transgressors have been made appealing to them.


There was a Chinese lady who died after being stuck in a lift in an empty building. Even the most stern of atheists , if stick in that lift , before he/she dies after many hours will ask for help from a higher power . This is instilled in human nature . Thus this person was never an atheist, even in if they don’t realise it .

 

[Stewie]

I think they are wrong. They should imbibe the madrasa school of learning where there is no scope for intellectual design thought process.

Nice pivot, just because you have been proven wrong, don't get so salty. LOL

Do you need more examples? Maybe you have not spent enough time in the USA.

 

[Stewie]

Nobody should force anything on anyone in Islam , it’s defies the idea of belief itself.

All answers are in the Quran .

10:12

Whenever someone is touched by hardship, they cry out to Us, whether lying on their side, sitting, or standing. But when We relieve their hardship, they return to their old ways as if they had never cried to Us to remove any hardship! This is how the misdeeds of the transgressors have been made appealing to them.


There was a Chinese lady who died after being stuck in a lift in an empty building. Even the most stern of atheists , if stick in that lift , before he/she dies after many hours will ask for help from a higher power . This is instilled in human nature . Thus this person was never an atheist, even in if they don’t realise it .

watch him come back with another mean and nasty pointless jibe. I have danced this dance with him and his type before. They just love to keep this forum running. lol

 

[Champ_Pal]

The purpose of life on Earth for humans is a Test.

God has given you information, told you the consequences and then free will to choose.

God has not mandated a choice for you and there is no compulsion in Islam.

In other words, "Islam does not force convert" anyone.

What did I post and what has your response got to do with what I posted?

Why would god lie that he is responsible for hail and rain when it is clear that they are just natural phenomena?

Regarding there is no compulsion in religion, there are contradictions there too.
On one hand it says there is no compulsion in religion, then it also says that fight people who do not believe in Allah nor the last day not forbid what Allah has forbidden.

Before we go into fighting nonbelievers, first tell me whether you believe in science or holy Quran regarding rain and hail. Then we will discuss whether there is compulsion in religion or not.

 

[Champ_Pal]

The purpose of life on Earth for humans is a Test.

God has given you information, told you the consequences and then free will to choose.

God has not mandated a choice for you and there is no compulsion in Islam.

In other words, "Islam does not force convert" anyone.

What did I post and what has your response got to do with what I posted?

Why would god lie that he is responsible for hail and rain when it is clear that they are just natural phenomena?

Regarding there is no compulsion in religion, there are contradictions there too.
On one hand it says there is no compulsion in religion, then it also says that fight people who do not believe in Allah nor the last day

Lol...what a flawed logic. For instance check the examples below:

Question: How to hit a ball with bat?

Two types of answer

1. First put your right hand close to the upper part of bat handle, then put your left on the tag end of end. Then watch for the incoming bowler's wrist movement. After the ball is released towards you adjust your foot movement accordingly. Then bent your arms to a particular and hit the ball with open face of bat.

2. Watch closely for the ball and whack it hard.


Now brother Champ pal are the above two things contradictory. . Please tell me am I lying here or not.

Yiu are trying too hard. We are not discussing how to hit a cricket ball.

Anyways, either of your explanations about hitting a ball can be taken as an answer. But or you tell me that you just stand there and some magical power will hit the ball for you, then it becomes suspicious.

 

[Champ_Pal]

By the way religion might not be taught in US public schools but intelligent design is. How do atheists feel about that?

Intelligent design might be taught in religious schools and it is whacky as hell.

 

[Stewie]

Intelligent design might be taught in religious schools and it is whacky as hell.

no, sir.. Public schools of West Virginia.

West Virginia's former "intelligent design" bill passes the House | National Center for Science Education

ncse.ngo

 

[Champ_Pal]

Lol...the way you shared video I thought science has discovered a new path for the pouring of rain droplets. But sad for you it still drops from clouds

Brother Champ pal mission unsuccessful

My offer still stands and you have the eternity to prove it wronh

Yes. You are right. A magical sky stands in the clouds and dumps water on earth bucketfuls and when he gets angry, he will throw hail on people. Brilliant.

 

[deltexas]

Nice pivot, just because you have been proven wrong, don't get so salty. LOL

Do you need more examples? Maybe you have not spent enough time in the USA.

There is no pivot. You can get salty as you want. There is something called freedom of religion in the USA which you seem to be unaware. Thats the point I am getting at.

 

[Champ_Pal]

no, sir.. Public schools of West Virginia.

West Virginia's former "intelligent design" bill passes the House | National Center for Science Education

ncse.ngo

Then it is absolutely rubbish and ridiculous. I will never send my kids to such schools.

 

[Stewie]

Then it is absolutely rubbish and ridiculous. I will never send my kids to such schools.

believe it or not, take it from someone who has lived in the US for over 30 years, things are taking more right turn now here and I would not be surprised if more such legislation is put in place. And if you think none of this was the case in the past as well you guys are sorely mistaken. US has always been a highly conservative and religious society compared to Europe. You just have to read their history, the Quakers, the Federalist papers, etc.

So all the Hindus here, whether they are self proclaimed cultural Hindus who believe in atheism or actual Hindus who believe in One book or another of Hinduism, kindly stop chest thumping on secularism or separation of church and state.

 

[Stewie]

There is no pivot. You can get salty as you want. There is something called freedom of religion in the USA which you seem to be unaware. Thats the point I am getting at.

ok another great pivot. What's next? the three bears and theirs bowls of porridge..



when you have something meaningful related to this topic to share, please tag me. Otherwise, my apologies for ignoring nonsense posts pivoting here there and everywhere.
Cheers!

 

[anikrc1]

The idea of God can't be disproven till now. But the idea of an all powerful , all knowing , everlasting God can be disproven.

Argument against God's omnipotennce: can He create a stone which he can't lift? If he can then by virtue of not being able to lift that stone he is not omnipotent. If he can then by virtue of not being able to create that stone he is not omnipotent.

Argument against either God's all powerfulness or everlastingness: Can He commit suicide? If He can't He is not omnipotent. If he can he is not everlasting.

Argument against God's omniscience: Let X be the set of all things God knows. Let P(X) be the power set of X. As there can't be an onto function from a set to its power Set, God can't know about all elements of P(X).

 

[Stewie]

The idea of God can't be disproven till now. But the idea of an all powerful , all knowing , everlasting God can be disproven.
Argument against God's omnipotennce: can He create a stone which he can't lift? If he can then by virtue of not being able to lift that stone he is not omnipotent. If he can then by virtue of not being able to create that stone he is not omnipotent.
Argument against either God's all powerfulness or everlastingness: Can He commit suicide? If He can't He is not omnipotent. If he can he is not everlasting.
Argument against God's omniscience: Let X be the set of all things God knows. Let P(X) be the power set of X. As there can't be an onto function from a set to its power Set, God can't know about all elements of P(X).

Wow, did I witness another scientific attempt at proving or disproving God and His capability?

Ladies and gentlemen, here we have an alleged creation, who is trying to show us that the creator is either not the creator or is limited in what He can do.

 

[anikrc1]

Wow, did I witness another scientific attempt at proving or disproving God and His capability?

Ladies and gentlemen, here we have an alleged creation, who is trying to show us that the creator is either not the creator or is limited in what He can do.

This is not an scientific proof. This is a logical proof. First understand the difference between the two. Logic encompasses every thing. Try to argue against any one of this point.

 

[RexRex]

Is it true Sharia law involves the following punishment ?

> stoning to death for adultery
> death penalty for apostasy
> death penalty for blasphemy
> death penalty for gay people

Honest answers only please.

Hmm .. I never did get an answer to this question of mine @LordJames

 

[Stewie]

This is not an scientific proof. This is a logical proof. First understand the difference between the two. Logic encompasses every thing. Try to argue against any one of this point.

What is logic if not science? It is just the study of reasoning, which actually gave birth to science and now you are using it to prove/disprove God and His limitations.


I guess you can take that to the WV Senate and convince them to roll back their decision on intelligent design.

 

[anikrc1]

What is logic if not science? It is just the study of reasoning, which actually gave birth to science and now you are using it to prove/disprove God and His limitations.


I guess you can take that to the WV Senate and convince them to roll back their decision on intelligent design.

Science depends on logic. Logic doesn't depend on science. Science is evidence based. Logic only have assumptions and what follows from it. Science is limited by the universe. I.E if the universe was created different many of science's laws would be different. Logic has no such limitations.

 

[Stewie]

Science depends on logic. Logic doesn't depend on science. Science is evidence based. Logic only have assumptions and what follows from it. Science is limited by the universe. I.E if the universe was created different many of science's laws would be different. Logic has no such limitations.

Those are very impressive thoughts. If other Indians thought like you do maybe we wont have the problem of Indians who burn their dead and spread the ashes in Ganges and then go try to shower in the same waters to cleanse themselves, amongst other things, all in the name of religion.

 

[anikrc1]

Those are very impressive thoughts. If other Indians thought like you do maybe we wont have the problem of Indians who burn their dead and spread the ashes in Ganges and then go try to shower in the same waters to cleanse themselves, amongst other things, all in the name of religion.

You realise that my argument also works against most branches of Hinduism right? This type of arguments are not even something new. Nagarjuna the great Buddhist logician was giving this type of arguments 2000 years ago against the existence of God and soul. So yeah, if your point is that Hinduism has many stupid traditions and rules which make no sense, I agree with you whole-heartedly.

 

[Stewie]

You realise that my argument also works against most branches of Hinduism right? This type of arguments are not even something new. Nagarjuna the great Buddhist logician was giving this type of arguments 2000 years ago against the existence of God and soul. So yeah, if your point is that Hinduism has many stupid traditions and rules which make no sense, I agree with you whole-heartedly.

Save it for a thread where we discuss the existence of God. This topic is vastly different from the current derailment.

 

[anikrc1]

Save it for a thread where we discuss the existence of God. This topic is vastly different from the current derailment.

I haven't argued against a creator God.

 

[LordJames]

Hmm .. I never did get an answer to this question of mine @LordJames

Answered all of them, are you following the thread? Please read and let me know which one has not been answered specifically?

 

[deltexas]

ok another great pivot. What's next? the three bears and theirs bowls of porridge..



when you have something meaningful related to this topic to share, please tag me. Otherwise, my apologies for ignoring nonsense posts pivoting here there and everywhere.
Cheers!

What is there in the constitution of each country is what matters. The pledge of allegiance is to your allegiance is to your country your state. What is funny is that the Muslim immigrants to the US before getting a visa or a green card agree to everything the visa application incl pledge of allegiance etc etc . Their Muslim ideology goes outta the window but the moments they become a US citizen - they want all the Islamic things and dont try to assimilate etc etc . You can pretend but I guess folks know what I am talking about.

 

[Stewie]

What is there in the constitution of each country is what matters. The pledge of allegiance is to your allegiance is to your country your state. What is funny is that the Muslim immigrants to the US before getting a visa or a green card agree to everything the visa application incl pledge of allegiance etc etc . Their Muslim ideology goes outta the window but the moments they become a US citizen - they want all the Islamic things and dont try to assimilate etc etc . You can pretend but I guess folks know what I am talking about.

Oh yeah sure the day all Muslims in the US will start losing sleep over what a Hindu from UP thinks of their allegiance, right?

Oh my God he just outed us… what do we do??? Someone call CAIR!

 

[Stewie]

You realise that my argument also works against most branches of Hinduism right? This type of arguments are not even something new. Nagarjuna the great Buddhist logician was giving this type of arguments 2000 years ago against the existence of God and soul. So yeah, if your point is that Hinduism has many stupid traditions and rules which make no sense, I agree with you whole-heartedly.

Because what a Buddhist said 2000 years ago makes it right?
The idiotic logic used holds no significance. I can be tough and mean to my kids and punish them to teach my children.
Does that mean I am not their father or I dont mean well?

This is what this idiot is essentially trying to say. Before you name drop some ancient dude, kindly make sure you can defend the “logic”

 

[deltexas]

Nobody should force anything on anyone in Islam , it’s defies the idea of belief itself.

All answers are in the Quran .

10:12

Whenever someone is touched by hardship, they cry out to Us, whether lying on their side, sitting, or standing. But when We relieve their hardship, they return to their old ways as if they had never cried to Us to remove any hardship! This is how the misdeeds of the transgressors have been made appealing to them.


There was a Chinese lady who died after being stuck in a lift in an empty building. Even the most stern of atheists , if stick in that lift , before he/she dies after many hours will ask for help from a higher power . This is instilled in human nature . Thus this person was never an atheist, even in if they don’t realise it .

When you are facing death - anybody will do anything bcos you are praying for a miracle. Even a Muslim guy if he is facing death ( atleast the normal ones, not the jihadis or suicide bombers) - if you tell him he will be alive if he says Hail Jesus or praise any non Islamic God or Lord , he would do it. Heck if someone had a gun on my head and said I would be alive if I became a Muslim or a Christian or say anything , I am saying it with zero pause. Heck bro - I want to stay alive at any cost and enjoy all the sins and pleasures on earth being alive and not hope that i will get those cardinal pleasures in heaven as promised by some !

 

[deltexas]

Oh yeah sure the day all Muslims in the US will start losing sleep over what a Hindu from UP thinks of their allegiance, right?

Oh my God he just outed us… what do we do??? Someone call CAIR!

Yeah , shows your ignorance me being a Hindu from UP. Nothing to do - thats why folks like them exploit the loopholes and you get all the Islamaphobic statements . As i said when in minority want full secularism; when in majority want full islamic and sharia law.. Yeah got it ..

 

[deltexas]

Because what a Buddhist said 2000 years ago makes it right?
The idiotic logic used holds no significance. I can be tough and mean to my kids and punish them to teach my children.
Does that mean I am not their father or I dont mean well?

This is what this idiot is essentially trying to say. Before you name drop some ancient dude, kindly make sure you can defend the “logic”

Your own logic lol !

Because what a someone said in Saudi land said 1000s of years ago makes it right?
The logic used holds no significance. ( not being impolite like you )

 

[LordJames]

When you are facing death - anybody will do anything bcos you are praying for a miracle. Even a Muslim guy if he is facing death ( atleast the normal ones, not the jihadis or suicide bombers) - if you tell him he will be alive if he says Hail Jesus or praise any non Islamic God or Lord , he would do it. Heck if someone had a gun on my head and said I would be alive if I became a Muslim or a Christian or say anything , I am saying it with zero pause. Heck bro - I want to stay alive at any cost and enjoy all the sins and pleasures on earth being alive and not hope that i will get those cardinal pleasures in heaven as promised by some !

Negative.

Belief in a single creator is natural and instinctive and there is science behind this concept:

To not believe in god or believe in multiple gods is against basic instinct and is a learned behavior which requires to kill instinctive belief and then fill the void with other stuff.

 

[Stewie]

Yeah , shows your ignorance me being a Hindu from UP. Nothing to do - thats why folks like them exploit the loopholes and you get all the Islamaphobic statements. As i said when in minority want full secularism; when in majority want full islamic and sharia law.. Yeah got it ..

Let’s see large generalized sweeping statements made about Muslims - check

Blaming others for being frog in a well statement - check

Why if it must walk like a Hindu pretending to be an atheist and talk like a Hindu pretending to be an atheist..

You know the rest….

 

[Stewie]

Your own logic lol !

Because what a someone said in Saudi land said 1000s of years ago makes it right?
The logic used holds no significance. ( not being impolite like you )

Religion is all about faith. YOU are the one trying to bring “logic” into it.

 

[LordJames]

Let’s see large generalized sweeping statements made about Muslims - check

Blaming others for being frog in a well statement - check

Why if it must walk like a Hindu pretending to be an atheist and talk like a Hindu pretending to be an atheist..

You know the rest….

This thread is a typical example of how Hindus behave in a religious discussion, if cursing and threats of raping was allowed it would have happened by now. Take a look at what happens to Western Sanskrit and Religious experts on Hindus and what they get on Twitter, they often share their DM!

We have heated discussions with Christian & Atheists & Agnostics and they introduce their belief and argue/discuss from their paradigm, they neither hide their actual belief nor oscillate between a theist, atheist and agnostic.

There is no logic, no basis, no support and no evidence for idol worship whatsoever, let a Hindu discuss it calmly and in depth without cursing, using bad language and issuing rape threats!

Its their own inferiority complex which triggers their behavior.​

1. Admit your religion or belief or whatever​
2. State your belief paradigm​
3. Argue from the paradigm of your belief​

The fact is that someone believes in a paradigm and follows it, an Atheist or Agnostic has a paradigm

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

I appreciate you calming down for the sake of your own health. Now, provide me authentic sources from history and your religious sources because we are discussing history here and not religion.

Guru Arjun:

Guru Arjun was "allegedly" killed by Jehangir and here is BBC report on Mughals & Jehangir

BBC - Religions - Islam: Mughal Empire (1500s, 1600s)

Learn about the Mughal Empire that ruled most of India and Pakistan in the 16th and 17th centuries.

www.bbc.co.uk

In short, Jehangir wasn't particularly religious and had no interest in converting anyone to Islam and there is no authentic record of anything of that nature in history. This is a myth which has been fed to you.

Arjun Singh was killed by Jehangir due to Arjun Singh providing support to Khusru who rebelled against the king

https://punjab.global.ucsb.edu/sites/default/files/sitefiles/journals/volume12/no1/3_singh.pdf

There is not much Islamic angle to this history as many were killed due to treason or supporting those incited treason.

Forced Conversion of Hindus & Aurangzeb

Once again, instead of "WhatsApp history" we look at what Aurangezeb actually did

Aurangzeb: Excerpt & More | Stanford University Press

www.sup.org

Also read Aurgzeb: Bad Ruler or Bad History?

Unlike what you think, Mugghals were not religious at all and did not make any attempts to foster or grow Islam. In fact, in hunderds of years of Islamic rule there was not a single Mughal who performed Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah). Mughuls were an empire and they were "Muslims" and like any other empire, they put down rebellions and dealt with treason or any other perceived threats to their empire. This was not a democracy but a Monarchy and gross violations of human rights did occur.

What you are showing at best is that "Muslims" violated principles of Islam you have yet to show Islam teaching them to do these things.

In terms of Jizya, I have lready addressed it in the opening post.

When you claim your religion as scientific original proven right thing, and my religion as bad history that ends all discussion.

It proves my point about Islam. It's all about insulting other religions and subjugation, murder and forced conversions. That is the true face of Islam and your word salad proves it.
So my religion is a myth fed to me and Islam's claim and your claims are truthful. What a load of bull crap!!!

 

[Stewie]

When you claim your religion as scientific original proven right thing, and my religion as bad history that ends all discussion.

It proves my point about Islam. It's all about insulting other religions and subjugation, murder and forced conversions. That is the true face of Islam and your word salad proves it.
So my religion is a myth fed to me and Islam's claim and your claims are truthful. What a load of bull crap!!!

None of your claims are justified if you read @LordJames post. Not sure who is claiming here religion is scientifically prove. Or that it’s ok to insult any religion.
In fact anything you are the one who is making broad, generalizing and sweeping derogatory statements about Islam.

You guys love to talk about forced conversions and this and that and without any proof and then you algiys ask us proof of our faith and some
Of you have even questioned the the creator we believe in has almighty powers using pseudo scientific logic, and we are supposed to NOT take this as insult?

Just because some of your countrymen are pretending to be atheists?
If you want respect you gotta show respect. It doesn’t work the way the pseudo intellectual Hindus and you are behaving here about stereotyping Islam as a faith, Muslims as a community and presenting your alternative history as facts.

Suggest to stay on topic and debate, rather than spewing Modi logic all over the place.
Thanks

 

[Stewie]

This thread is a typical example of how Hindus behave in a religious discussion, if cursing and threats of raping was allowed it would have happened by now. Take a look at what happens to Western Sanskrit and Religious experts on Hindus and what they get on Twitter, they often share their DM!

We have heated discussions with Christian & Atheists & Agnostics and they introduce their belief and argue/discuss from their paradigm, they neither hide their actual belief nor oscillate between a theist, atheist and agnostic.

There is no logic, no basis, no support and no evidence for idol worship whatsoever, let a Hindu discuss it calmly and in depth without cursing, using bad language and issuing rape threats!

Its their own inferiority complex which triggers their behavior.​

1. Admit your religion or belief or whatever​
2. State your belief paradigm​
3. Argue from the paradigm of your belief​

The fact is that someone believes in a paradigm and follows it, an Atheist or Agnostic has a paradigm

They will never learn. Their favorite fallback is that we forced converted their people, used love jihad to take their women, we want shariat everywhere, etc. it’s the same regurgitated Hindutva verbal and written stuff on these threads.

 

[sweep_shot]

They will never learn. Their favorite fallback is that we forced converted their people, used love jihad to take their women, we want shariat everywhere, etc. it’s the same regurgitated Hindutva verbal and written stuff on these threads.

It is pointless and a complete waste of time to discuss Islam with BJP folks.

Their hatred for Islam is off the chart.

 

[deltexas]

Religion is all about faith. YOU are the one trying to bring “logic” into it.

Religion is a personal belief. And I don't care about people's personal beliefs , its their choice.
And you said there is no logic and yet you disparage the lack of logic in all religions except yours. Pot calling the kettle black. And I don't know what you mean by " your type". If I am a believer in a secular democratic constitution with freedom of religion yes I am that type.

Also the comments you made about another religion tags not yours is sohypocrites. But they have the ability to listen to those and not go violent. If I say anything similar to that in your book as pseudoIslam intellectualism you all guys here will pile up on here and scream blasphemy and go bat crazy. Am not insecure . A cartoon triggers your insecurities and violence and makes you tie your in a wad.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Please answer brother.
Please educate

Don't think he will respond to you.

 

[Stewie]

Religion is a personal belief. And I don't care about people's personal beliefs , its their choice.
And you said there is no logic and yet you disparage the lack of logic in all religions except yours. Pot calling the kettle black. And I don't know what you mean by " your type". If I am a believer in a secular democratic constitution with freedom of religion yes I am that type.

Also the comments you made about another religion tags not yours is sohypocrites. But they have the ability to listen to those and not go violent. If I say anything similar to that in your book as pseudoIslam intellectualism you all guys here will pile up on here and scream blasphemy and go bat crazy. Am not insecure . A cartoon triggers your insecurities and violence and makes you tie your in a wad.

You are one confused individual to be mixing all manner of topics here.

You paint the wider Muslims of the world with the same islamophobe and Muslim phobe brush and when we defend ourselves you claim we are insulting your religion.

If you want your religion respected then stop questioning and disrespecting our faith. It’s rather simple isn’t it?

For once try to practice what your preach. This isn’t India where you can get away with burning trainloads of Muslims.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Please stay on topic and do not disrespect anybody's religion here. This thread is about punishments in ISLAM. Read the topic again and then post from now on.

 

[Romali_rotti]

When I think of Islam and look at Pakistan and Bangladesh, where almost all the population follow Islam, what I see = Failure.

Is Islam one of the reasons why Pakistan/Bangladesh are in their current situation? Possibly, if it isn't I sure would like to know. I am open to admit I was wrong if it can be proven.

Islam is the most backwards out of all Abhrahamic faiths, Christianity and Judaism have evolved with time while Islam has not, not to the level of the other 2 religions.

Blashphemy laws, killing gays, forceful conversations or whatever else is not going to lead Pakistan to prosperity or out of the mess they are in unfortunately.

If I had to chose any other belief system over my current beliefs, it would be Christianity.