Dawah, Islamic Law, Punishments & Limits in Islam

[anikrc1]

Because what a Buddhist said 2000 years ago makes it right?
The idiotic logic used holds no significance. I can be tough and mean to my kids and punish them to teach my children.
Does that mean I am not their father or I dont mean well?

This is what this idiot is essentially trying to say. Before you name drop some ancient dude, kindly make sure you can defend the “logic”

For me to defend the logic, you will have to be able to attack it first. I welcome anyone to try to attack it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

When I think of Islam and look at Pakistan and Bangladesh, where almost all the population follow Islam, what I see = Failure.

Is Islam one of the reasons why Pakistan/Bangladesh are in their current situation? Possibly, if it isn't I sure would like to know. I am open to admit I was wrong if it can be proven.

Islam is the most backwards out of all Abhrahamic faiths, Christianity and Judaism have evolved with time while Islam has not, not to the level of the other 2 religions.

Blashphemy laws, killing gays, forceful conversations or whatever else is not going to lead Pakistan to prosperity or out of the mess they are in unfortunately.

If I had to chose any other belief system over my current beliefs, it would be Christianity.

This is understandable coming from one who doesn't believe in the afterlife. For Muslims, Jews and Christians, who do believe that actions have consequences beyond their lifetime, material concerns are not their sole focus.

 

[KingKhanWC]

When you are facing death - anybody will do anything bcos you are praying for a miracle. Even a Muslim guy if he is facing death ( atleast the normal ones, not the jihadis or suicide bombers) - if you tell him he will be alive if he says Hail Jesus or praise any non Islamic God or Lord , he would do it. Heck if someone had a gun on my head and said I would be alive if I became a Muslim or a Christian or say anything , I am saying it with zero pause. Heck bro - I want to stay alive at any cost and enjoy all the sins and pleasures on earth being alive and not hope that i will get those cardinal pleasures in heaven as promised by some !

If I didn’t believe in a creator it would be idiotic to ask him of anything. If fear brings out belief it means you’re not an atheist .

It seems you already have asked.


Chap starts a thread on Islam , suddenly all those who passionately defend Hindutva, become atheists

 

[KingKhanWC]

When I think of Islam and look at Pakistan and Bangladesh, where almost all the population follow Islam, what I see = Failure.

Is Islam one of the reasons why Pakistan/Bangladesh are in their current situation? Possibly, if it isn't I sure would like to know. I am open to admit I was wrong if it can be proven.

Islam is the most backwards out of all Abhrahamic faiths, Christianity and Judaism have evolved with time while Islam has not, not to the level of the other 2 religions.

Blashphemy laws, killing gays, forceful conversations or whatever else is not going to lead Pakistan to prosperity or out of the mess they are in unfortunately.

If I had to chose any other belief system over my current beliefs, it would be Christianity.

Islam has nothing to do with those nations .

But interestingly you’ve missed out others bro ? UAE , Saudi , Qatar , Kuwait ? These are first world Muslim nations , where Indians flock to, to earn a living . There are far more Islamic than Pakistan.

What is your current belief so we can compare ?

 

[Romali_rotti]

Islam has nothing to do with those nations .

But interestingly you’ve missed out others bro ? UAE , Saudi , Qatar , Kuwait ? These are first world Muslim nations , where Indians flock to, to earn a living . There are far more Islamic than Pakistan.

What is your current belief so we can compare ?

I was specifically talking about the sub continent bro which is why I mentioned Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Since you brought Arabs in your reply, I feel the main reason why they are successful is because of oil, it is not because of their intellect or effort. I feel if the Arabs did not have any oil they would also be a zero like Pakistan/Bangladesh.

I am Hindu..

 

[KingKhanWC]

I was specifically talking about the sub continent bro which is why I mentioned Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Since you brought Arabs in your reply, I feel the main reason why they are successful is because of oil, it is not because of their intellect or effort. I feel if the Arabs did not have any oil they would also be a zero like Pakistan/Bangladesh.

I am Hindu..

Islam started in Arabia .

Natural resources are given by God acc to them .

Little to no crime , clean , safe , jobs etc . Compare this to the only Hindu nation & it’s the opposite.

If I was a Hindu I’d leave the faith pretty quickly, it makes no sense at all . One of the main reasons why so many in the sub continent converted .

 

[Romali_rotti]

Islam started in Arabia .

Natural resources are given by God acc to them .

That is a belief bro, which is fine you are free to think that way.

Little to no crime , clean , safe , jobs etc . Compare this to the only Hindu nation & it’s the opposite.

If I was a Hindu I’d leave the faith pretty quickly, it makes no sense at all . One of the main reasons why so many in the sub continent converted .

You cannot compare India to an OIL rich Arab nation, that's not how this works. India is a 3rd world country which is now slowly moving into a developing country, of course there will be crime, poverty, depression etc, I have never said India was perfect ever, India is full of faults, this has nothing to do with Hinduism though, however I have always said one thing; India is where it is now because it is a Hindu majority, if we were a muslim majority, we would be another failed nation like Pakistan and soon to be a failure Bangladesh.

Look at the thread starter for instance, he is ok with killing homosexuals, apostates etc, this itself shows the mindset of being in Islam. These are the last things a Pakistani should be thinking about, all focus should be about somehow salvaging all they can or anything for Pakistan but they rather do their namaz, talk blasphemy, show extreme religious intolerance (dwindling to almost no minorities), Madrassa schooling etc.

Arabs are starting to move on, one great example is Mohammad Bin Salman, with the changes he is making it seems clear to me that he feels sticking with this 1400 year old Islamic mindset will set his country back as the rest of the world is moving forward at a fast pace, with education, technology, science, innovation etc, reading the Quran and doing Namaz 5 times a day, talking about rubbish like Blasphemy etc will leave you in the dust in the coming future.

Bro, I got nothing but respect for you, you know we cool, I don't mean any disrespect when I state these facts above about Pakistan, this is what I truly believe.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The problem with analysing a country's progress through its religious identity is that people conveniently suit the timeframes to suit their own agenda.

Why measure India and Hinduism during the 10 year gap its made progress? Why measure Pakistan and Islam during a period of decline?
The most glorious period in the subcontinent's history was the peak of Mughal rule. Why not measure Islam in the subcontinent from here?

Similarly, there have been terrible times of women getting burned alive, a rotten caste system, and zero progress in Hindu history; why do these not count under this measure?

 

[LordJames]

When I think of Islam and look at Pakistan and Bangladesh, where almost all the population follow Islam, what I see = Failure.

Is Islam one of the reasons why Pakistan/Bangladesh are in their current situation? Possibly, if it isn't I sure would like to know. I am open to admit I was wrong if it can be proven.

Islam is the most backwards out of all Abhrahamic faiths, Christianity and Judaism have evolved with time while Islam has not, not to the level of the other 2 religions.

Blashphemy laws, killing gays, forceful conversations or whatever else is not going to lead Pakistan to prosperity or out of the mess they are in unfortunately.

If I had to chose any other belief system over my current beliefs, it would be Christianity.

Your analysis and choices from your perspective makes sense and its understandable.

Limited Choices:

Your first limitation is not realizing that your choices are limited. Imagine being in North Korea where all access to information is limited so a person's worldview will be limited. In the Western world, the information is limited and I will give you a few specific examples:

1. Research: In the Western world, you cannot do doctoral research unless your topic is approved and the topics which are suppressed are all related to LGBTQ. It is impossible for any major university to authorize studies into negative impact on people and children due to LGBTQ influence. Any researcher who does not follow the line is shunned
2. Social Media: Censorship applies for certain topics e.g. Palestine, Kashmir, Muslim oppression of Hindus. I had a Twitter Account with significant following and used to post about Kashmir, someone from BCCI (Delhi) reported me multiple times on posting tweets about Kashmir and then on posting a picture of Virat Kohli (copyright) and twitter shut my Account down and said that unless I resolve my issue with BCCI Account will be shut...This is before Elon Musk. When leader of Hamas was killed, Facebook posts reporting the news not commenting were shut down, any mention of a name was automatically censored....Any presentations on LGBTQ, analysis of Judaism on YouTube is shut down by a single person reporting e.g. quoting verses of Talmud on YouTube will get a strike

I know that you will argue that your information is not censored and curtailed and that's fine.

The reason people have a problem with Islam is because it is the only thing resisting runaway dismantling of society norms and ripping of the social fabric.

The reason you would rather convert to Christianity is because its docile and doesn't put up any resistance (in Indian society) and you have grown up to see it.

Your real issue with Islam is its visible resistance e.g. men with Beards, women with Hijabs which you believe are not melting into Indian culture and society. You have little problem with Salman Khans of this world who have a Muslim name and also worship Hindu deities but you have a major problem with "Abdullah" the Fruit seller who looks Muslims despite being Indian for 10 generations and refuses to shave his Beard and stands out...you know that he is not breaking any laws.

By "you" I mean majority of Hindus and the counter argument that I have Muslim friends etc won't wash.

India has made a lot of progress its commendable but by cozing upto Secular/Liberal Western culture and I would say even submitting to it.

From my perspective, the Secular/Liberal Western world order is in terminal decline and on its last breath and its evident to many of us who are born or grown up here. Israel is on the wrong side of demographics and simply cannot sustain what is going on in the future. America is tired and weary and will not be in a posiiton to enforce its will on the world (as it once did) for too long and Americans are sick of being the "World Cop"...the MAGA moment is simply a sign of how most Americans feel about their Foreign policy, many Americans may not be Trump supporters but hate the endless wars and foreign interventions.

Then to have a Macro-level worldview, you need to distinguish between Muslims and Muslim Governments which are failed states, corrupt and self serving. When you actually look at Islam on a world level, you will realize that the future clearly belongs to Islam.
I am not in a habit of insulting religions or people and this is not meant to be that way but Hindus are a minor docile subset of people on a world scale who have always submitted and will do in the future. For now, India has made a huge error in aliging its interests with US and we do see Indians everywhere in America and in seemingly positions of importance but even deep down you know that Islam and Hinduism is not the same and consequently Muslims and Hindus are not comparable.

Hindus will change and submit to whatever god (US, Russia, China, Israel) while Muslims due to their faith won't do and therein my friend is the difference.

Islam didn't start 1400 years ago but even if we were to make the assumption that it did then right until 1924 it was dominant in some form or another as a major world power and will be again. Don't bet against Islam because the ideology cannot be defeated, cannot be subjugated.

You may be in a position to economically boycott "Abdullah" the Fruit seller OR burn down the Autorickshaw of "Khalid" but you won't be able to sustain it for too long so enjoy your dominance and oppression of Muslims while you can

 

[KingKhanWC]

That is a belief bro, which is fine you are free to think that way.

You cannot compare India to an OIL rich Arab nation, that's not how this works. India is a 3rd world country which is now slowly moving into a developing country, of course there will be crime, poverty, depression etc, I have never said India was perfect ever, India is full of faults, this has nothing to do with Hinduism though, however I have always said one thing; India is where it is now because it is a Hindu majority, if we were a muslim majority, we would be another failed nation like Pakistan and soon to be a failure Bangladesh.

Look at the thread starter for instance, he is ok with killing homosexuals, apostates etc, this itself shows the mindset of being in Islam. These are the last things a Pakistani should be thinking about, all focus should be about somehow salvaging all they can or anything for Pakistan but they rather do their namaz, talk blasphemy, show extreme religious intolerance (dwindling to almost no minorities), Madrassa schooling etc.

Arabs are starting to move on, one great example is Mohammad Bin Salman, with the changes he is making it seems clear to me that he feels sticking with this 1400 year old Islamic mindset will set his country back as the rest of the world is moving forward at a fast pace, with education, technology, science, innovation etc, reading the Quran and doing Namaz 5 times a day, talking about rubbish like Blasphemy etc will leave you in the dust in the coming future.

Bro, I got nothing but respect for you, you know we cool, I don't mean any disrespect when I state these facts above about Pakistan, this is what I truly believe.

It’s only a discussion, people are too sensitive at times. Appreciate the response.

Without going off topic , apostasy is in the sense of treason , not just for stop being a Muslim . It’s death sentence for treason in most . As for homosexuality, if done in public it’s punished but heterosexuals are also punished if seen in public . In the west we have people openly doing in public . It’s even being taught in schools how to act out these. IMO Islamic morality is far superior then western liberalism

 

[BouncerGuy]

AGAIN....THIS THREAD IS ABOUT PUNISHMENTS IN ISLAM.

NO NEED TO MOCK ANY RELIGION OR COMPARE RELIGIONS HERE....STAY ON TOPIC OR FIND OTHER THREADS FOR YOUR IRRELEVANT POSTS

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I am not in a habit of insulting religions or people and this is not meant to be that way but Hindus are a minor docile subset of people on a world scale who have always submitted and will do in the future. For now, India has made a huge error in aliging its interests with US and we do see Indians everywhere in America and in seemingly positions of importance but even deep down you know that Islam and Hinduism is not the same and consequently Muslims and Hindus are not comparable.

Hindus will change and submit to whatever god (US, Russia, China, Israel) while Muslims due to their faith won't do and therein my friend is the difference.

I disagree with this part - even as a Muslim. The docile nature of Hindus is exaggerated and restricted mainly to people who move abroad for a better life. Even then some can view it as a positive.

Within India Hinduism has remained strong and intact despite significant pressures. They have preserved their religion and identity and are one of the worlds great faiths with chains of traditions going back centuries. Rather than submit they have survived and this survival should command some respect.

 

[BouncerGuy]

I disagree with this part - even as a Muslim. The docile nature of Hindus is exaggerated and restricted mainly to people who move abroad for a better life. Even then some can view it as a positive.

Within India Hinduism has remained strong and intact despite significant pressures. They have preserved their religion and identity and are one of the worlds great faiths with chains of traditions going back centuries. Rather than submit they have survived and this survival should command some respect.

What does your post has anything to do with the topic of the thread???

 

[DeadlyVenom]

What does your post has anything to do with the topic of the thread???

I was responding to another post. I think it's linked to the discussion but you can remove it if you like.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Your analysis and choices from your perspective makes sense and its understandable.

Limited Choices:

Your first limitation is not realizing that your choices are limited. Imagine being in North Korea where all access to information is limited so a person's worldview will be limited. In the Western world, the information is limited and I will give you a few specific examples:

1. Research: In the Western world, you cannot do doctoral research unless your topic is approved and the topics which are suppressed are all related to LGBTQ. It is impossible for any major university to authorize studies into negative impact on people and children due to LGBTQ influence. Any researcher who does not follow the line is shunned
2. Social Media: Censorship applies for certain topics e.g. Palestine, Kashmir, Muslim oppression of Hindus. I had a Twitter Account with significant following and used to post about Kashmir, someone from BCCI (Delhi) reported me multiple times on posting tweets about Kashmir and then on posting a picture of Virat Kohli (copyright) and twitter shut my Account down and said that unless I resolve my issue with BCCI Account will be shut...This is before Elon Musk. When leader of Hamas was killed, Facebook posts reporting the news not commenting were shut down, any mention of a name was automatically censored....Any presentations on LGBTQ, analysis of Judaism on YouTube is shut down by a single person reporting e.g. quoting verses of Talmud on YouTube will get a strike

I know that you will argue that your information is not censored and curtailed and that's fine.

The reason people have a problem with Islam is because it is the only thing resisting runaway dismantling of society norms and ripping of the social fabric.

The reason you would rather convert to Christianity is because its docile and doesn't put up any resistance (in Indian society) and you have grown up to see it.

Your real issue with Islam is its visible resistance e.g. men with Beards, women with Hijabs which you believe are not melting into Indian culture and society. You have little problem with Salman Khans of this world who have a Muslim name and also worship Hindu deities but you have a major problem with "Abdullah" the Fruit seller who looks Muslims despite being Indian for 10 generations and refuses to shave his Beard and stands out...you know that he is not breaking any laws.

By "you" I mean majority of Hindus and the counter argument that I have Muslim friends etc won't wash.

India has made a lot of progress its commendable but by cozing upto Secular/Liberal Western culture and I would say even submitting to it.

From my perspective, the Secular/Liberal Western world order is in terminal decline and on its last breath and its evident to many of us who are born or grown up here. Israel is on the wrong side of demographics and simply cannot sustain what is going on in the future. America is tired and weary and will not be in a posiiton to enforce its will on the world (as it once did) for too long and Americans are sick of being the "World Cop"...the MAGA moment is simply a sign of how most Americans feel about their Foreign policy, many Americans may not be Trump supporters but hate the endless wars and foreign interventions.

Then to have a Macro-level worldview, you need to distinguish between Muslims and Muslim Governments which are failed states, corrupt and self serving. When you actually look at Islam on a world level, you will realize that the future clearly belongs to Islam.
I am not in a habit of insulting religions or people and this is not meant to be that way but Hindus are a minor docile subset of people on a world scale who have always submitted and will do in the future. For now, India has made a huge error in aliging its interests with US and we do see Indians everywhere in America and in seemingly positions of importance but even deep down you know that Islam and Hinduism is not the same and consequently Muslims and Hindus are not comparable.

Hindus will change and submit to whatever god (US, Russia, China, Israel) while Muslims due to their faith won't do and therein my friend is the difference.

Islam didn't start 1400 years ago but even if we were to make the assumption that it did then right until 1924 it was dominant in some form or another as a major world power and will be again. Don't bet against Islam because the ideology cannot be defeated, cannot be subjugated.

You may be in a position to economically boycott "Abdullah" the Fruit seller OR burn down the Autorickshaw of "Khalid" but you won't be able to sustain it for too long so enjoy your dominance and oppression of Muslims while you can

ok 'future belongs to Islam'

Do tell how this would happen.

Thanks for making it very clear why the Islamic world is in crisis and will remain that way. You are living in an alternate reality.


Nevertheless you keep doing your thing.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If I didn’t believe in a creator it would be idiotic to ask him of anything. If fear brings out belief it means you’re not an atheist .

It seems you already have asked.


Chap starts a thread on Islam , suddenly all those who passionately defend Hindutva, become atheists

Yes and while it seems fine for the hindutvas to call Islam backwards, when in response we point out why Hindu religion could be seen as ridiculous, that gets removed.

 

[Champ_Pal]

You are one confused individual to be mixing all manner of topics here.

You paint the wider Muslims of the world with the same islamophobe and Muslim phobe brush and when we defend ourselves you claim we are insulting your religion.

If you want your religion respected then stop questioning and disrespecting our faith. It’s rather simple isn’t it?

For once try to practice what your preach. This isn’t India where you can get away with burning trainloads of Muslims.

Islam constantly talks about Christians, Jews and Polytheists. Not to forget the punishment meted to Atheists. So it becomes the duty of non-muslims to call out those things.

Trainload of Hindus were burned to death. Not Muslims. The aftermath of that is where Muslims get killed in the riots.

 

[Red-Indian]

Your analysis and choices from your perspective makes sense and its understandable.

Limited Choices:

Your first limitation is not realizing that your choices are limited. Imagine being in North Korea where all access to information is limited so a person's worldview will be limited. In the Western world, the information is limited and I will give you a few specific examples:

1. Research: In the Western world, you cannot do doctoral research unless your topic is approved and the topics which are suppressed are all related to LGBTQ. It is impossible for any major university to authorize studies into negative impact on people and children due to LGBTQ influence. Any researcher who does not follow the line is shunned
2. Social Media: Censorship applies for certain topics e.g. Palestine, Kashmir, Muslim oppression of Hindus. I had a Twitter Account with significant following and used to post about Kashmir, someone from BCCI (Delhi) reported me multiple times on posting tweets about Kashmir and then on posting a picture of Virat Kohli (copyright) and twitter shut my Account down and said that unless I resolve my issue with BCCI Account will be shut...This is before Elon Musk. When leader of Hamas was killed, Facebook posts reporting the news not commenting were shut down, any mention of a name was automatically censored....Any presentations on LGBTQ, analysis of Judaism on YouTube is shut down by a single person reporting e.g. quoting verses of Talmud on YouTube will get a strike

I know that you will argue that your information is not censored and curtailed and that's fine.

The reason people have a problem with Islam is because it is the only thing resisting runaway dismantling of society norms and ripping of the social fabric.

The reason you would rather convert to Christianity is because its docile and doesn't put up any resistance (in Indian society) and you have grown up to see it.

Your real issue with Islam is its visible resistance e.g. men with Beards, women with Hijabs which you believe are not melting into Indian culture and society. You have little problem with Salman Khans of this world who have a Muslim name and also worship Hindu deities but you have a major problem with "Abdullah" the Fruit seller who looks Muslims despite being Indian for 10 generations and refuses to shave his Beard and stands out...you know that he is not breaking any laws.

By "you" I mean majority of Hindus and the counter argument that I have Muslim friends etc won't wash.

India has made a lot of progress its commendable but by cozing upto Secular/Liberal Western culture and I would say even submitting to it.

From my perspective, the Secular/Liberal Western world order is in terminal decline and on its last breath and its evident to many of us who are born or grown up here. Israel is on the wrong side of demographics and simply cannot sustain what is going on in the future. America is tired and weary and will not be in a posiiton to enforce its will on the world (as it once did) for too long and Americans are sick of being the "World Cop"...the MAGA moment is simply a sign of how most Americans feel about their Foreign policy, many Americans may not be Trump supporters but hate the endless wars and foreign interventions.

Then to have a Macro-level worldview, you need to distinguish between Muslims and Muslim Governments which are failed states, corrupt and self serving. When you actually look at Islam on a world level, you will realize that the future clearly belongs to Islam.
I am not in a habit of insulting religions or people and this is not meant to be that way but Hindus are a minor docile subset of people on a world scale who have always submitted and will do in the future. For now, India has made a huge error in aliging its interests with US and we do see Indians everywhere in America and in seemingly positions of importance but even deep down you know that Islam and Hinduism is not the same and consequently Muslims and Hindus are not comparable.

Hindus will change and submit to whatever god (US, Russia, China, Israel) while Muslims due to their faith won't do and therein my friend is the difference.

Islam didn't start 1400 years ago but even if we were to make the assumption that it did then right until 1924 it was dominant in some form or another as a major world power and will be again. Don't bet against Islam because the ideology cannot be defeated, cannot be subjugated.

You may be in a position to economically boycott "Abdullah" the Fruit seller OR burn down the Autorickshaw of "Khalid" but you won't be able to sustain it for too long so enjoy your dominance and oppression of Muslims while you can

There's so much idiocy in this post that it's tough to know where to start but maybe I can start with the first and work my way down to the worst assertions.

1. Research: In the Western world, you cannot do doctoral research unless your topic is approved and the topics which are suppressed are all related to LGBTQ. It is impossible for any major university to authorize studies into negative impact on people and children due to LGBTQ influence. Any researcher who does not follow the line is shunned

I'm not sure why you're bothered with the Western world making research related into negative impact of LGBTQ taboo. There's plenty of other topics that are also taboo like intelligence difference between races. There are still 64 countries where Homosexuality is illegal. Why don't you get them to do the research instead? Homosexuals have reached hard-fought equality in the west after centuries of discrimination and outright oppression. Personally, I'm happy for them to get some protections.

 

[LordJames]

There's so much idiocy in this post that it's tough to know where to start but maybe I can start with the first and work my way down to the worst assertions.


I'm not sure why you're bothered with the Western world making research related into negative impact of LGBTQ taboo. There's plenty of other topics that are also taboo like intelligence difference between races. There are still 64 countries where Homosexuality is illegal. Why don't you get them to do the research instead? Homosexuals have reached hard-fought equality in the west after centuries of discrimination and outright oppression. Personally, I'm happy for them to get some protections.

The issue is not LGBTQ protection but relentless propaganda and pushing the message upon the overwhelming majority of people who are not LGBTQ using pseudo-science and media. I gave an example of how research is restricted and it sounds like you agree that it is.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Warning:

Please don't discuss Hinduism here

 

[Suleiman]

When I think of Islam and look at Pakistan and Bangladesh, where almost all the population follow Islam, what I see = Failure.

Is Islam one of the reasons why Pakistan/Bangladesh are in their current situation? Possibly, if it isn't I sure would like to know. I am open to admit I was wrong if it can be proven.

Islam is the most backwards out of all Abhrahamic faiths, Christianity and Judaism have evolved with time while Islam has not, not to the level of the other 2 religions.

Blashphemy laws, killing gays, forceful conversations or whatever else is not going to lead Pakistan to prosperity or out of the mess they are in unfortunately.

If I had to chose any other belief system over my current beliefs, it would be Christianity.

Understandable coming from a pagan. Truth will always seem “backward” to an idol worshipper entrenched in the worldly life.

Even using your logic, you only use the last 10-30 years of economic “success” as a measuring stick while forgetting centuries of dominance and influence of Islamic societies, let alone advancing the Indian subcontinent which would otherwise be stuck worshipping cow dung, vermin, genitalia and everything else under the sun aside from God and accomplish little else.

 

[LordJames]

Rain

Hail

Are you ready to leave your religion?

Science and scientific explanation does not conflict with Islam. The belief system in Islam states that worldly events has specific causes but the events occur due to express knowledge, consent and will of God.

So there is nothing inherently against Islamic teachings to believe in the water cycle and how rain is formed and comes down OR how condensation occurs.

There are hundreds of references in the Quran encouraging to think and science isn't incompatible with Islam.

 

[Stewie]

Science and scientific explanation does not conflict with Islam. The belief system in Islam states that worldly events has specific causes but the events occur due to express knowledge, consent and will of God.

So there is nothing inherently against Islamic teachings to believe in the water cycle and how rain is formed and comes down OR how condensation occurs.

There are hundreds of references in the Quran encouraging to think and science isn't incompatible with Islam.

I know this is splitting hairs, but no religions are different in that sense they all claim a powerful entity (or entities) that controls everything in the universe. Islam, Judaism, Christianity all say the same. God created heaven, hell, earth and controls the weather and all the elements. We all use science to explain how our universe works. God created a mechanism for all aspects of nature and we use science to explain those mechanisms.

A very simple to understand concept that you can only push back on and oppose if you want to troll around here. I am sure the trolls are thinking hard and fast to continue to stir stuff here for another 50 pages already.

 

[LordJames]

I disagree with this part - even as a Muslim. The docile nature of Hindus is exaggerated and restricted mainly to people who move abroad for a better life. Even then some can view it as a positive.

Within India Hinduism has remained strong and intact despite significant pressures. They have preserved their religion and identity and are one of the worlds great faiths with chains of traditions going back centuries. Rather than submit they have survived and this survival should command some respect.

The issue is not that it is a positive or negative attribute but the difference between the docile nature of Hindus and opposite nature of Muslims and I see that you accept it.

 

[LordJames]

ok 'future belongs to Islam'

Do tell how this would happen.

Thanks for making it very clear why the Islamic world is in crisis and will remain that way. You are living in an alternate reality.


Nevertheless you keep doing your thing.

You probably mean to say that the "Muslim world" is in crisis with a large number of failed states, chaos in societies and conflict and I accept it.

 

[LordJames]

Understandable coming from a pagan. Truth will always seem “backward” to an idol worshipper entrenched in the worldly life.

Even using your logic, you only use the last 10-30 years of economic “success” as a measuring stick while forgetting centuries of dominance and influence of Islamic societies, let alone advancing the Indian subcontinent which would otherwise be stuck worshipping cow dung, vermin, genitalia and everything else under the sun aside from God and accomplish little else.

This is a very good point, looking at the last 2-3 decades of semblance of progress by aligning itself with the Western society and benefiting from the crumbs and having dreams of grandeur.

 

[anikrc1]

Understandable coming from a pagan. Truth will always seem “backward” to an idol worshipper entrenched in the worldly life.

Even using your logic, you only use the last 10-30 years of economic “success” as a measuring stick while forgetting centuries of dominance and influence of Islamic societies, let alone advancing the Indian subcontinent which would otherwise be stuck worshipping cow dung, vermin, genitalia and everything else under the sun aside from God and accomplish little else.

You realise that India's golden age was the Gupta rule right? And the Arab Mathematics you are so proud of was built upon the work of Hindu mathematicians?

 

[LordJames]

You realise that India's golden age was the Gupta rule right? And the Arab Mathematics you are so proud of was built upon the work of Hindu mathematicians?

Science is always built upon earlier research work so if Muslim scientists learned and borrowed from earlier discoveries that's fine and consistent.

Just like European renaissance and rise is based on Muslim contributions to science.

The only difference is that many of the "Hindu contributions" are based on myth while the Golden period of Muslim contribution to science is recent and can be verified. Who knows whether Hindus had Internet 9,000 years ago?

Hindus invented internet 9,000 years ago, Indian minister says

A minister in India’s ruling party has claimed that the internet was invented by Hindus more than 9,000 years ago in the latest example of nationalists laying claim to western inventions.Putting the achievements of Sir Tim Berners-Lee, Vinton Cerf and Robert Kahn firmly in their place, Biplab Kuma

www.thetimes.com

But Algebra definitely comes from Arabic word

Algebra in Islamic Mathematics

'Algebra in Islamic Mathematics' published in 'Encyclopaedia of the History of Science, Technology, and Medicine in Non-Western Cultures'

link.springer.com

 

[Stewie]

I still don't see the point of mingling the political upheaval in the world involving Muslim states with Islam the religion. The political upheaval in the world can be attributed to a number of different factors, even Muslim states at war with each other, how is any of that a reflection or has anything to do with the topic of this thread?

I hope all participants here are wary of this and are smart enough to Delineate the two concepts.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You realise that India's golden age was the Gupta rule right? And the Arab Mathematics you are so proud of was built upon the work of Hindu mathematicians?

I would dispute that, but would be going off topic as the thread is not about Hindu mathemticians. Kindly take note of mod requests to stay on topic.

 

[LordJames]

I still don't see the point of mingling the political upheaval in the world involving Muslim states with Islam the religion. The political upheaval in the world can be attributed to a number of different factors, even Muslim states at war with each other, how is any of that a reflection or has anything to do with the topic of this thread?

I hope all participants here are wary of this and are smart enough to Delineate the two concepts.

Its important to point out that Hindus conflate the two and their confusion is reflected in their worldview and analysis.

Agreed, lets drop it and concentrate on the topic.

Thanks

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Islam constantly talks about Christians, Jews and Polytheists. Not to forget the punishment meted to Atheists. So it becomes the duty of non-muslims to call out those things.

Trainload of Hindus were burned to death. Not Muslims. The aftermath of that is where Muslims get killed in the riots.

I think the topic is Islamic law, dawah and punishments. Not really sure what alleged burning a train of Hindus has to do with any of this. Were the culprits tried under Sharia law perhaps?

 

[Stewie]

Its important to point out that Hindus conflate the two and their confusion is reflected in their worldview and analysis.

Agreed, lets drop it and concentrate on the topic.

Thanks

I think most of the ugliness we see here is due to some of these Hindus trolling us, plain and simple. They have lived with Muslims for centuries so I find it hard to believe they are unable to make such simple differentiations. I think they like to just rile things up by repeating the same stuff in the guise of ignorance.

 

[Red-Indian]

I still don't see the point of mingling the political upheaval in the world involving Muslim states with Islam the religion. The political upheaval in the world can be attributed to a number of different factors, even Muslim states at war with each other, how is any of that a reflection or has anything to do with the topic of this thread?

I hope all participants here are wary of this and are smart enough to Delineate the two concepts.

We've had this debate multiple times but religion in general (either due to it's structure or the way humans follow it) is inimical to change and progress - social, scientific and economic.

The issues that Muslim states have currently and potentially India could have if it tried to bother too much with Hinduism in law have less to do with Islam and Hinduism in themselves and more to do with the fact that religion itself retards progress if it tries to step out of the individual or personal domain.

 

[Stewie]

I think the topic is Islamic law, dawah and punishments. Not really sure what alleged burning a train of Hindus has to do with any of this. Were the culprits tried under Sharia law perhaps?

He probably lost a relative during those riots, he loves hating Muslims.

 

[anikrc1]

Science is always built upon earlier research work so if Muslim scientists learned and borrowed from earlier discoveries that's fine and consistent.

Just like European renaissance and rise is based on Muslim contributions to science.

The only difference is that many of the "Hindu contributions" are based on myth while the Golden period of Muslim contribution to science is recent and can be verified. Who knows whether Hindus had Internet 9,000 years ago?

Hindus invented internet 9,000 years ago, Indian minister says

A minister in India’s ruling party has claimed that the internet was invented by Hindus more than 9,000 years ago in the latest example of nationalists laying claim to western inventions.Putting the achievements of Sir Tim Berners-Lee, Vinton Cerf and Robert Kahn firmly in their place, Biplab Kuma

www.thetimes.com

But Algebra definitely comes from Arabic word

Algebra in Islamic Mathematics

'Algebra in Islamic Mathematics' published in 'Encyclopaedia of the History of Science, Technology, and Medicine in Non-Western Cultures'

link.springer.com

I wouldn't be so sure about it.. https://link.springer.com/reference...ics,equations (samīkaraṇa) which are compared

 

[Stewie]

We've had this debate multiple times but religion in general (either due to it's structure or the way humans follow it) is inimical to change and progress - social, scientific and economic.

The issues that Muslim states have currently and potentially India could have if it tried to bother too much with Hinduism in law have less to do with Islam and Hinduism in themselves and more to do with the fact that religion itself retards progress if it tries to step out of the individual or personal domain.

Religion did not result in Soviet Union invading Afghanistan and pushing that country back decades if not a century.
Religion did not cause the end of the Ottoman Empire.
Religion did not cause the conflict between Iran and Iraq.
Religion did not cause the civil war in Syria.
Religion is not to be blamed for the monarchic rule of the Saud family in "Saudi Arabia"
Religion was not the reason for the invasion and utter destruction of Iraq and the murder of its people
Religion was not the reason for the similar fate as Saddam and Iraq to fall on Qaddhafi and Libya
Religion cannot be blamed for the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. Its simply the politicization of the religion.

There are so many other such examples. I really don't see how you can claim that given the relatively progressive current standing of the Vatican and Israel. How would you explain that then?

In theory, I would agree with your assessment if you completely ditch the demands of the progressive world and become "malang" but that's not what is going on in the Muslim world at the moment.

 

[LordJames]

I wouldn't be so sure about it.. https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-1-4020-4425-0_9206#:~:text=Bījagaṇita, which literally means “mathematics,equations (samīkaraṇa) which are compared

As I said, anything can be claimed of thousands of years ago and some tenuous links can be made while the Muslim contribution is recent and verifiable.

 

[Red-Indian]

Religion did not result in Soviet Union invading Afghanistan and pushing that country back decades if not a century.
Religion did not cause the end of the Ottoman Empire.
Religion did not cause the conflict between Iran and Iraq.
Religion did not cause the civil war in Syria.
Religion is not to be blamed for the monarchic rule of the Saud family in "Saudi Arabia"
Religion was not the reason for the invasion and utter destruction of Iraq and the murder of its people
Religion was not the reason for the similar fate as Saddam and Iraq to fall on Qaddhafi and Libya
Religion cannot be blamed for the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. Its simply the politicization of the religion.

There are so many other such examples. I really don't see how you can claim that given the relatively progressive current standing of the Vatican and Israel. How would you explain that then?

In theory, I would agree with your assessment if you completely ditch the demands of the progressive world and become "malang" but that's not what is going on in the Muslim world at the moment.

I think you're arguing against an extreme version of the basic theory I proposed.

I did not say irreligious countries are perfect. Such an argument would be stupid. We've seen horrors in China, USSR etc.
I also did not say every disaster in the world is due to religion. Religion on the whole is doing more harm than good today but that does not mean everything about it is terrible.

All I said is that religion makes progress much more difficult. Still possible if people have enough determination but it's a sort of millstone on scientific and societal development.

I guess it's up to religious folks if they feel the sacrifice of some growth and freedoms is worth it in order to live in what they believe are more "moral societies."

 

[Stewie]

I think you're arguing against an extreme version of the basic theory I proposed.

I did not say irreligious countries are perfect. Such an argument would be stupid. We've seen horrors in China, USSR etc.
I also did not say every disaster in the world is due to religion. Religion on the whole is doing more harm than good today but that does not mean everything about it is terrible.

All I said is that religion makes progress much more difficult. Still possible if people have enough determination but it's a sort of millstone on scientific and societal development.

I guess it's up to religious folks if they feel the sacrifice of some growth and freedoms is worth it in order to live in what they believe are more "moral societies."

Your basic theory is contending, though, is that religion is hindrance to development and that in itself is an extreme take on religion, isn't it?

I know a lot of religious people who happen to be Hafiz and have doctorates and are even professors and work towards progress and advancement.

I am sorry to tell you that your view on religion are not exactly impartial due to your personal leaning towards atheism or "non-religiousness", and your bias is understandable. However, a broad generalize person opinion of yours cannot be presented as a well established "theory" , even if such a thing exists. Theories are theories and don't become facts unless proven. and I think your theory is largely unproven.

Americans are some of the most religious people I have come across.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Yiu are trying too hard. We are not discussing how to hit a cricket ball.

Anyways, either of your explanations about hitting a ball can be taken as an answer. But or you tell me that you just stand there and some magical power will hit the ball for you, then it becomes suspicious.

What an irony, you are unwilling to accept that a batter could magically hit a ball and rightly so but how dumb when atheists argue that all these heavenly bodies existing even before big bang and all the universe come into being magically on its own.

So going by your logic if one can't hit even a ball with magic then what about atheism's view on this whole universe supposedly created out of magic . Brother champ pal please for a moment think sensibly without any grudge towards any religion.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I think you're arguing against an extreme version of the basic theory I proposed.

I did not say irreligious countries are perfect. Such an argument would be stupid. We've seen horrors in China, USSR etc.
I also did not say every disaster in the world is due to religion. Religion on the whole is doing more harm than good today but that does not mean everything about it is terrible.

All I said is that religion makes progress much more difficult. Still possible if people have enough determination but it's a sort of millstone on scientific and societal development.

I guess it's up to religious folks if they feel the sacrifice of some growth and freedoms is worth it in order to live in what they believe are more "moral societies."

I made a similar argument in favour of secular societies a few years ago. Much of the technological advancement we see today is driven by entertainment. For example, better audio equipment for listening to music, 4/8k television screens for enjoying tv shows or movies. This is driven by arts whether it be music or acting. In a strict Islamic society would a lot of that type of performance be outlawed?

I don't know the answer to those questions, but you could see where a lot of development might be considered unnecessary in such a society. Maybe that would turn out to be a good thing, it's not a judgement. But there's a question to be asked.

 

[LordJames]

Your basic theory is contending, though, is that religion is hindrance to development and that in itself is an extreme take on religion, isn't it?

I know a lot of religious people who happen to be Hafiz and have doctorates and are even professors and work towards progress and advancement.

I am sorry to tell you that your view on religion are not exactly impartial due to your personal leaning towards atheism or "non-religiousness", and your bias is understandable. However, a broad generalize person opinion of yours cannot be presented as a well established "theory" , even if such a thing exists. Theories are theories and don't become facts unless proven. and I think your theory is largely unproven.

Americans are some of the most religious people I have come across.

American are conservative in values even when they may not be religious

 

[LordJames]

I think you're arguing against an extreme version of the basic theory I proposed.

I did not say irreligious countries are perfect. Such an argument would be stupid. We've seen horrors in China, USSR etc.
I also did not say every disaster in the world is due to religion. Religion on the whole is doing more harm than good today but that does not mean everything about it is terrible.

All I said is that religion makes progress much more difficult. Still possible if people have enough determination but it's a sort of millstone on scientific and societal development.

I guess it's up to religious folks if they feel the sacrifice of some growth and freedoms is worth it in order to live in what they believe are more "moral societies."

Disagree with the assertion that the religion is doing more harm then good. Within the last 100 years and ongoing most of the conflicts and loss of life is not attributable to religion. The Palestine/Israel conflict isn't down to religion but down to israelism which is a political movement in the grab of Judaism and due to it conflict in the Middle East is viewed with a religious lens

 

[Champ_Pal]

I think the topic is Islamic law, dawah and punishments. Not really sure what alleged burning a train of Hindus has to do with any of this. Were the culprits tried under Sharia law perhaps?

The polemics against Christianity, Judaism and Pagans is part of Dawah. That is how they try to convert.

 

[Champ_Pal]

What an irony, you are unwilling to accept that a batter could magically hit a ball and rightly so but how dumb when atheists argue that all these heavenly bodies existing even before big bang and all the universe come into being magically on its own.

So going by your logic if one can't hit even a ball with magic then what about atheism's view on this whole universe supposedly created out of magic . Brother champ pal please for a moment think sensibly without any grudge towards any religion.

Existence of something does not mean magic. It means we still have not figured out with evidence how universe came into existence.

Just because we don’t have an explanation, it does not mean there is a magic wand behind it.

We hit a base ball because there is physics involved in it. Not some magical power letting us hit the ball.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Disagree with the assertion that the religion is doing more harm then good. Within the last 100 years and ongoing most of the conflicts and loss of life is not attributable to religion. The Palestine/Israel conflict isn't down to religion but down to israelism which is a political movement in the grab of Judaism and due to it conflict in the Middle East is viewed with a religious lens

It’s not just israelism alone. Islamists have killed thousands in this century alone. It is still going in many parts of Africa and Asia.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Existence of something does not mean magic. It means we still have not figured out with evidence how universe came into existence.

Just because we don’t have an explanation, it does not mean there is a magic wand behind it.

We hit a base ball because there is physics involved in it. Not some magical power letting us hit the ball

Lol another irony you as a representative of atheists admit that science hasn't yet discovered how the universe came into existence despite us being in 2024 and then you simply deny the existence of God who is eternal without any evidence

 

[Champ_Pal]

Lol another irony you as a representative of atheists admit that science hasn't yet discovered how the universe came into existence despite us being in 2024 and then you simply deny the existence of God who is eternal without any evidence

Origin of life and universe itself is still out to be explained with evidence. So far we have many theories. Unless there is credible testable evidence, science will not announce an answer for it.

On the contrary, religion says God did it with zero evidence

 

[Red-Indian]

Your basic theory is contending, though, is that religion is hindrance to development and that in itself is an extreme take on religion, isn't it?

I know a lot of religious people who happen to be Hafiz and have doctorates and are even professors and work towards progress and advancement.

I am sorry to tell you that your view on religion are not exactly impartial due to your personal leaning towards atheism or "non-religiousness", and your bias is understandable. However, a broad generalize person opinion of yours cannot be presented as a well established "theory" , even if such a thing exists. Theories are theories and don't become facts unless proven. and I think your theory is largely unproven.

Americans are some of the most religious people I have come across.

I don't think my theory is an extreme take on religion at all. I think religion prioritises 'other' development than what most in the modern world try for. For example, I think most religions would be happy for everyone to be leading lives from the medieval times as long as they are moral lives.

I also think most of what is considered highly valued freedom in the modern world - to question, protest, shock, abuse, blaspheme and experiment is not very valued in religion. I don't love all of it either (I could never understand modern art) but I recognise that this freedom is part of what drives society forward in the manner I value.

I suppose a religious society and life is fine for those who want to live that way. I personally cannot imagine living there. Too much of what I enjoy would be pointless or worse, immoral and therefore banned.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The polemics against Christianity, Judaism and Pagans is part of Dawah. That is how they try to convert.

Regarding the burning of people in the train, I did not bring in that topic captain. Check who I responded to before you jump the gun.

I checked, there was nothing about burning train loads of Hindus which is what I responded to.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Origin of life and universe itself is still out to be explained with evidence. So far we have many theories. Unless there is credible testable evidence, science will not announce an answer for it.

On the contrary, religion says God did it with zero evidence

Except Islam as Quran mentions many signs. It seems brother champ pal you still haven't read Holy Quran yet.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

No off topic numerical discussion please

 

[Red-Indian]

Disagree with the assertion that the religion is doing more harm then good. Within the last 100 years and ongoing most of the conflicts and loss of life is not attributable to religion. The Palestine/Israel conflict isn't down to religion but down to israelism which is a political movement in the grab of Judaism and due to it conflict in the Middle East is viewed with a religious lens

I don't think religion is necessarily causing wars. Those...as always in human history have been driven by tribalism and greed. Religion can't do much to help there...it's human nature.

Religion has it's pros and cons. I've admitted the good earlier - it's useful as a way to popularise moral behaviour. It's also a nice crutch to help people work through bad times and it can inspire some truly great art.

Where I think religion has done harm is slow down freedom of thought and experimentation. It's not enough in religion for someone to be brilliant and innovative. They also have to be a 'good' person and believe in the right god.

 

[Stewie]

I don't think my theory is an extreme take on religion at all. I think religion prioritises 'other' development than what most in the modern world try for. For example, I think most religions would be happy for everyone to be leading lives from the medieval times as long as they are moral lives.

I also think most of what is considered highly valued freedom in the modern world - to question, protest, shock, abuse, blaspheme and experiment is not very valued in religion. I don't love all of it either (I could never understand modern art) but I recognise that this freedom is part of what drives society forward in the manner I value.

I suppose a religious society and life is fine for those who want to live that way. I personally cannot imagine living there. Too much of what I enjoy would be pointless or worse, immoral and therefore banned.

your theory is predicated on pre-concieved notions and ideas and beliefs that religion will subvert efforts for progress or that its practioners will be focused on "morality" alone. I think nothing could be farther from the truth. You can be moral and progressive at the same time. And religion does NOT prioritize anything. It just guides you in morality. Everything else is up to you and for you to decide AS AN INDIVIDUAL or as a society

 

[LordJames]

I don't think religion is necessarily causing wars. Those...as always in human history have been driven by tribalism and greed. Religion can't do much to help there...it's human nature.

Religion has it's pros and cons. I've admitted the good earlier - it's useful as a way to popularise moral behaviour. It's also a nice crutch to help people work through bad times and it can inspire some truly great art.

Where I think religion has done harm is slow down freedom of thought and experimentation. It's not enough in religion for someone to be brilliant and innovative. They also have to be a 'good' person and believe in the right god.

I see where you are coming from a Christian-Judaeo perspective i.e. its obvious that European material progress started after the abandonment of religion.

In terms of Islam, its the opposite because Islam has a diametrically opposed relationship with science compared to Christian-Judaeo and because your opinion is based on European enlightenment you are apply to all religions.

1. The rise of European material progress can be attributed to their move away from religion.
2. The decline of Muslim material progress is definitely attributed to their move away from religion.

 

[Red-Indian]

your theory is predicated on pre-concieved notions and ideas and beliefs that religion will subvert efforts for progress or that its practioners will be focused on "morality" alone. I think nothing could be farther from the truth. You can be moral and progressive at the same time. And religion does NOT prioritize anything. It just guides you in morality. Everything else is up to you and for you to decide AS AN INDIVIDUAL or as a society

That I'm afraid is an incredibly idealistic 'woke' view of religion. I admire you for having that particular viewpoint but in the real world, religion and it's most powerful votaries worldwide (irrespective of which specific religion they adhere to) are very clear on what they prioritise and what they have no value for.

Through most of history and even today, religion does not just 'guide' you in morality. It governs it and where it has been able to gather power, punishes deviations. It's very difficult to have a questioning, inquisitive mind in circumstances where an attempt to understand the creation of the universe can be misinterpreted as an attempt to question the ineffability of god.

 

[Red-Indian]

I see where you are coming from a Christian-Judaeo perspective i.e. its obvious that European material progress started after the abandonment of religion.

In terms of Islam, its the opposite because Islam has a diametrically opposed relationship with science compared to Christian-Judaeo and because your opinion is based on European enlightenment you are apply to all religions.

1. The rise of European material progress can be attributed to their move away from religion.
2. The decline of Muslim material progress is definitely attributed to their move away from religion.

That's a pretty amusing explanation of decline in Muslim material progress. For example, is it your contention that the Mughals were deeply religious and there managed to govern India while modern Indian Muslims have become irreligious and therefore are only a minority community?

The simple explanation is that Western society managed to separate state from religion the earliest and evolved first, Asian societies like China and Japan managed to move away from religion next and saw progress, India broke free from shackles of centuries of restrictive Hinduism and is hopefully going next. Muslim states are still looking for answers in their religious books and will progress when they manage to break free.

 

[KingKhanWC]

That's a pretty amusing explanation of decline in Muslim material progress. For example, is it your contention that the Mughals were deeply religious and there managed to govern India while modern Indian Muslims have become irreligious and therefore are only a minority community?

The simple explanation is that Western society managed to separate state from religion the earliest and evolved first, Asian societies like China and Japan managed to move away from religion next and saw progress, India broke free from shackles of centuries of restrictive Hinduism and is hopefully going next. Muslim states are still looking for answers in their religious books and will progress when they manage to break free.

What does the west have that Arab Muslim nations don’t ?

 

[anikrc1]

What does the west have that Arab Muslim nations don’t ?

Plenty of Nobel winners and Fields Medal winners for one.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Understandable coming from a pagan. Truth will always seem “backward” to an idol worshipper entrenched in the worldly life.

Even using your logic, you only use the last 10-30 years of economic “success” as a measuring stick while forgetting centuries of dominance and influence of Islamic societies, let alone advancing the Indian subcontinent which would otherwise be stuck worshipping cow dung, vermin, genitalia and everything else under the sun aside from God and accomplish little else.

Mashallah, This...

I believe converts from the sub continent like you are the future of Islam and original custodians Arabs etc of Islam need to learn a thing or or 2 from ppl like you.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Plenty of Nobel winners and Fields Medal winners for one.

Opinions & awards ok .

Kissinger was a war criminal he’s got one too

 

[Stewie]

That I'm afraid is an incredibly idealistic 'woke' view of religion. I admire you for having that particular viewpoint but in the real world, religion and it's most powerful votaries worldwide (irrespective of which specific religion they adhere to) are very clear on what they prioritise and what they have no value for.

Through most of history and even today, religion does not just 'guide' you in morality. It governs it and where it has been able to gather power, punishes deviations. It's very difficult to have a questioning, inquisitive mind in circumstances where an attempt to understand the creation of the universe can be misinterpreted as an attempt to question the ineffability of god.

You may feel that way about religion in general but that tells me you also do not know or understand much about Muslims.

Our Prophet said "ILM HAASIL KARO CHAHEY CHEEN JANA PARAY"

For every brainwashed idiot twisted radical "non-muslim Muslim" I know 3-4 devout and hard working Muslims who have excelled professionally and academically (here in the US). Most masjids here in Colorado are spearheaded by engineers, doctors, professors, etc. I know hafiz-e-quran who are specialists in their fields.

If their closeness to religion is a standard we are using, the evidence I have seen personally negates your theory. Once again I live in the US so my experiences may differ from yours if you live in India or from someone who hangs out generally with the "raiwind crowd" type of tableeghis who have devoted everthing to tableegh and given up on the worldy matters.

 

[anikrc1]

Opinions & awards ok .

Kissinger was a war criminal he’s got one too

Yup, compare achievements in physics and maths to those in politics.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yup, compare achievements in physics and maths to those in politics.

Politics lol

You really should read history.

Let’s get to the laws as per topic.

Crime is rampant in the west. Do you think they can learn from Islamic laws & be harsher on crime?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Except Islam as Quran mentions many signs. It seems brother champ pal you still haven't read Holy Quran yet.

Post those signs and we can examine.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Post those signs and we can examine.

What evidence do you require to convince you there is a creator ?

 

[Stewie]

Yup, compare achievements in physics and maths to those in politics.

I agree with that assessment. We have had only one Nobel laureate in Physics and I don't know about other Muslim nations but I am pretty sure the achievements are not much to write home about. It will make for an interesting research topic as to why, and if religion really has something to do with it. My personal experiences tend to point towards "negative" on the latter.

Israel definitely rules that list and you have to admire their accomplishments in science, tech and medicine.

 

[Champ_Pal]

What evidence do you require to convince you there is a creator ?

Anything that can be tested and verified.

The whole world will convert to Islam if you can provide that.

 

[Champ_Pal]

You may feel that way about religion in general but that tells me you also do not know or understand much about Muslims.

Our Prophet said "ILM HAASIL KARO CHAHEY CHEEN JANA PARAY"

For every brainwashed idiot twisted radical "non-muslim Muslim" I know 3-4 devout and hard working Muslims who have excelled professionally and academically (here in the US). Most masjids here in Colorado are spearheaded by engineers, doctors, professors, etc. I know hafiz-e-quran who are specialists in their fields.

If their closeness to religion is a standard we are using, the evidence I have seen personally negates your theory. Once again I live in the US so my experiences may differ from yours if you live in India or from someone who hangs out generally with the "raiwind crowd" type of tableeghis who have devoted everthing to tableegh and given up on the worldy matters.

The Holy Prophet was not talking about learning science. He is talking about Islamic knowledge - sharee’ah

“Seek knowledge even if you have to go as far as China” is a false hadeeth - Islam Question & Answer

islamqa.info

 

[Stewie]

The Holy Prophet was not talking about learning science. He is talking about Islamic knowledge - sharee’ah

“Seek knowledge even if you have to go as far as China” is a false hadeeth - Islam Question & Answer

islamqa.info

Why would he say that about Islamic knowledge? were there better experts in religious knowledge in China, than he was? This is an absurd statement even from someone the likes of you.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Anything that can be tested and verified.

The whole world will convert to Islam if you can provide that.

Specify ?

 

[KingKhanWC]

The Holy Prophet was not talking about learning science. He is talking about Islamic knowledge - sharee’ah

“Seek knowledge even if you have to go as far as China” is a false hadeeth - Islam Question & Answer

islamqa.info

The Chinese had better knowledge of Islam

 

[Champ_Pal]

Why would he say that about Islamic knowledge? were there better experts in religious knowledge in China, than he was? This is an absurd statement even from someone the likes of you.

I am not saying that. It was from an Islamic website. The site which is often presented here by Muslim posters.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

The Chinese had better knowledge of Islam

and how can u claim that?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Specify ?

Any evidence. Why should I specify what the evidence should be? If someone claims so and so did it. Then the standard question asked will be "Show me the evidence".

 

[KingKhanWC]

and how can u claim that?

I don’t champ pal does . Read above

 

[Champ_Pal]

The Chinese had better knowledge of Islam

You mean the Chinese cannot?

 

[Stewie]

I am not saying that. It was from an Islamic website. The site which is often presented here by Muslim posters.

I use my own judgment and I don't need such scholarly interpretations. I was looking at his other views and the guy does not seem sane enough to me quite honestly.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Any evidence. Why should I specify what the evidence should be? If someone claims so and so did it. Then the standard question asked will be "Show me the evidence".

lol you don’t even have a clue what evidence you need to believe. Because it saves time & you may get this quickly or not .

Stop wasting peoples time , you’re a Hindu parading as an atheist . I’ll tag you in the Hindu thread .