Dawah, Islamic Law, Punishments & Limits in Islam

[The Bald Eagle]

I did not change any Goal Posts.

If I know my opponent properly, I can send my men to finish off the opponent tomorrow itself. All I have to do is, select the best man to do the job.

I see nothing miraculous or divine in these army victories. There were many cases of improbable victories in sports all the time. That does not mean the team pulling off the victory is divinely guided.

Yep like Indian generals predicted to have tea in Lahore gymkhana in evening in 1965 and you know what happened next.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Yep like Indian generals predicted to have tea in Lahore gymkhana in evening in 1965 and you know what happened next.

You can take potshots at Indian army. It does not change the fact that military victory or even any small battles when the winner predicts victory by certain time period does not prove any miracles of God.

I gave you what can constitute a miracle or divine knowledge.

Let me give you a cricketing example...

Lets say Pakistan is chasing a score of 500 on a day-5 pitch which is a raging turner. Pakistan are 9 down for 50 odd runs with 2 tailenders batting whose previous highest scores are less than 10 runs and cannot hold a bat to save their lives.

The 2 batsmen pray in the middle of the pitch during drinks break and when the play resumes, they start hitting boundaries and sixes and chase the score with overs to spare. It will be considered the most improbable victory ever. Now if they can repeat the feat again and again because of a prayer, then it can be considered a miracle.

I hope you are understanding what an unexplained miracle means. Not just some random battles by army generals. They could be a brilliant military strategists and nothing else.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

@baldeagle, Let me give you some examples of divine knowledge or miracles.

1)If someone who is not educated back in 7th century tells his people that all the diseases you are suffering from are caused by these tiny things called Bacteria and viruses. Here is a medicine or vaccine you have to take to protect yourself from these tiny microscopic organisms. Then the person who is either dying or suffering becomes alright and till today we should be using that medicine.

2) If someone gets a divine vehicle thousands of years ago that lets people travel from one place to a far away place in a matter of minutes or even hours and till today we will be using that vehicle and no one understands how that vehicle operates even with modern science.

3) If someone tells us that we are just a tiny spec of dust in the vastness of cosmos and Earth is just a planet orbiting its home star and the star is orbiting a galaxy and there are billions of galaxies in the universe. That will be amazing.

I can go on and on. Predicting victories by giving certain time periods is not a miracle. Even Alexander and Genghis Khan conquered most of the known world of their times. That does not make them divinely guided. They were just great conquerors of their time.

Again abundantly clear now that brother champ pal you don't read Quran at all

"The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it" (51:47).

Sahih International
"It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming" (Quran Surah Yaseen, Verse 40]

====
Spoiler alert brother champ pal you will change the goal post again. Plz make a prediction in response to my post 350 or mention any military general as much accurate as Quran and that too ALWAYS. Will wait till then

 

[Hitman]

But that is the test "hooman".

The test of faith. If God shows Himsef then of course you will fall inline and start prostrating. He wants to test us and see if we give in to the evil persuasions of Satan or hold firm believe in God and stay pious.

We do not have to prove anything or provide any evidence. This is probably the gazillionth time I am writing this line. So far based on this pattern and your response the only evidence I am able to present to you is one of your slow and questionable with and comprehension. That's all I got for your, brother Champ_pal. You keep asking for the wrong thing.

I am going to start assigning Quranic chapters for you to read. Do your homework first.

There's concept of Satan in Islam as well? I mean it's all over the Bible.

 

[sweep_shot]

There's concept of Satan in Islam as well? I mean it's all over the Bible.

Of course.

Satan is called "shaitan" in Islam. Iblis is the biggest devil.

 

[Stewie]

There's concept of Satan in Islam as well? I mean it's all over the Bible.

Are you kidding me? Or do you genuinely not know this?

Devil, Satan, Lucifer, Shaitaan, Ibis. all names for the source of evil and corruption and the same concept?

 

[Hitman]

Are you kidding me? Or do you genuinely not know this?

Devil, Satan, Lucifer, Shaitaan, Ibis. all names for the source of evil and corruption and the same concept?

I honestly did not know. I'm extremely well versed with the New Testament. The term 'satan' has been used multiple times there including by Lord Jesus.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Again abundantly clear now that brother champ pal you don't read Quran at all

"The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it" (51:47).

Sahih International
"It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming" (Quran Surah Yaseen, Verse 40]

====
Spoiler alert brother champ pal you will change the goal post again. Plz make a prediction in response to my post 350 or mention any military general as much accurate as Quran and that too ALWAYS. Will wait till then

Are we supposed to be amazed that your scripture tells us that Moon has an orbit? Almost every civilization knows that Moon has an Orbit. Greeks, Egyptians, Indians, Chinese, Mayan etc all know this.

Regarding Sun having an orbit is a joke. Sun only goes around the blackhole once every 230 million years. The movement of Sun around the Earth that appears to us everyday is an illusion created by the Earth's spin. Sun is not going anywhere other than going around the Supermassive blackhole.

In your eagerness you exposed the scripture yourself. Why will Moon ever cross into the path of Sun? Moon only orbits Earth 93 million miles away from Sun. From the point of Earth and Moon, Sun is always stationary at the center. But all Sun, Earth and Moon and every other solar system body are orbiting the Supermassive blackhole as a set.

Bro, all of this is beyond you. You are exposing your lack of knowledge and in the process exposing the errors in your scriptures badly.

If you ever have time, watch the Universe series in Youtube. It is free.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Are we supposed to be amazed that your scripture tells us that Moon has an orbit? Almost every civilization knows that Moon has an Orbit. Greeks, Egyptians, Indians, Chinese, Mayan etc all know this.

Regarding Sun having an orbit is a joke. Sun only goes around the blackhole once every 230 million years. The movement of Sun around the Earth that appears to us everyday is an illusion created by the Earth's spin. Sun is not going anywhere other than going around the Supermassive blackhole.

In your eagerness you exposed the scripture yourself. Why will Moon ever cross into the path of Sun? Moon only orbits Earth 93 million miles away from Sun. From the point of Earth and Moon, Sun is always stationary at the center. But all Sun, Earth and Moon and every other solar system body are orbiting the Supermassive blackhole as a set.

Bro, all of this is beyond you. You are exposing your lack of knowledge and in the process exposing the errors in your scriptures badly.

If you ever have time, watch the Universe series in Youtube. It is free.

You are blowing hot and cold air simultaneously. First make up your mind. What do you say is Sun stationary or moving? You have mentioned both.

And as usual you won't answer my actual questions mentioned gazillion times now below the same post you quoted Anyway one issue at a time brother champ pal. Let's explore your thoughts on Sun first.

 

[Champ_Pal]

You are blowing hot and cold air simultaneously. First make up your mind. What do you say is Sun stationary or moving? You have mentioned both.

And as usual you won't answer my actual questions mentioned gazillion times now. Anyway one issue at a time brother champ pal. Let's explore your thoughts on Sun first.

I will educate you again. Read carefully.

Sun is stationary from the point of view of Earth and Moon. But Sun, Earth and Moon are orbiting the blackhole together every 230 million years.

When we look up in the sky, it feels like Sun is orbiting Earth. But it is an illusion caused by the Spin of Earth on its own axis every 24 hours. This causes the illusion of Sunrise and Sunset due to the spin of Earth. From the point of view of Earth and Moon and other planets and asteroids in the solar system, Sun is not going anywhere. It is stationary.

Coming to the point of Sun and Moon not crossing their paths or one not overtaking the other, it is a joke. Sun and Moon are not even in the same path when we look up in the sky. Sun is 93 million miles away while Moon is only 240k miles. They are too far away from each other. There is no power stopping them from overtaking each other. They are not in any running race.

I cannot put things anymore clearer than this. I hope you understood this simple concept.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I will educate you again. Read carefully.

Sun is stationary from the point of view of Earth and Moon. But Sun, Earth and Moon are orbiting the blackhole together every 230 million years.

When we look up in the sky, it feels like Sun is orbiting Earth. But it is an illusion caused by the Spin of Earth on its own axis every 24 hours. This causes the illusion of Sunrise and Sunset due to the spin of Earth. From the point of view of Earth and Moon and other planets and asteroids in the solar system, Sun is not going anywhere. It is stationary.

Coming to the point of Sun and Moon not crossing their paths or one not overtaking the other, it is a joke. Sun and Moon are not even in the same path when we look up in the sky. Sun is 93 million miles away while Moon is only 240k miles. They are too far away from each other. There is no power stopping them from overtaking each other. They are not in any running race.

I cannot put things anymore clearer than this. I hope you understood this simple concept.

Hahahaha...Now please tell me if it still appears stationary relative to Earth even today, how come the Quran predicted this 1400 years ago. And for your knowledge not all religion said the same. Christians believe Earth to be static. Thanks for making my point easier. Food for thought brother champ pal

 

[Stewie]

Are we supposed to be amazed that your scripture tells us that Moon has an orbit? Almost every civilization knows that Moon has an Orbit. Greeks, Egyptians, Indians, Chinese, Mayan etc all know this.

Regarding Sun having an orbit is a joke. Sun only goes around the blackhole once every 230 million years. The movement of Sun around the Earth that appears to us everyday is an illusion created by the Earth's spin. Sun is not going anywhere other than going around the Supermassive blackhole.

In your eagerness you exposed the scripture yourself. Why will Moon ever cross into the path of Sun? Moon only orbits Earth 93 million miles away from Sun. From the point of Earth and Moon, Sun is always stationary at the center. But all Sun, Earth and Moon and every other solar system body are orbiting the Supermassive blackhole as a set.

Bro, all of this is beyond you. You are exposing your lack of knowledge and in the process exposing the errors in your scriptures badly.

If you ever have time, watch the Universe series in Youtube. It is free.

1. The sun DOES have an orbit around Sagittarius, and its an established orbit. In fact the entire Milkyway Galaxy has an orbit as well.
2. Where does it say that the Moon will cross paths into the path of the Sun?

You need to educate yourself a bit more, and if you have time away from spreading your garbage on PP and watching videos on YouTube, perhaps read an actual quality book on astronomy.

But before that read the Quran with translation. You will save yourself and all of us a lot of time.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Hahahaha...Now please tell me if it still appears stationary relative to Earth even today, how come the Quran predicted this 1400 years ago. And for your knowledge not all religion said the same. Christians believe Earth to be static. Thanks for making my point easier. Food for thought brother champ pal

I don't get your point. You said Sun and Moon do not cross their paths as though it is supposed to be some miracle of God. I told you, Sun and Moon do not cross their path not because of God. I gave proper explanation to everything including their supposed Orbits mentioned in your scriptures.

So you are saying Quran is explaining things from the point of view of humans? Anyone with a working brain who looks up at the sky everyday can observe what your scriptures are saying. There is no miracle in it.

PS- It is not God that is stopping Sun and Moon to overtake each other. Anyone with basic Astronomy knowledge know that it will never happen.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I don't get your point. You said Sun and Moon do not cross their paths as though it is supposed to be some miracle of God. I told you, Sun and Moon do not cross their path not because of God. I gave proper explanation to everything including their supposed Orbits mentioned in your scriptures.

So you are saying Quran is explaining things from the point of view of humans? Anyone with a working brain who looks up at the sky everyday can observe what your scriptures are saying. There is no miracle in it.

PS- It is not God that is stopping Sun and Moon to overtake each other. Anyone with basic Astronomy knowledge know that it will never happen.

Yep they are their own creators typical atheist arguments. They just one day decided to move in a certain symmetry so they could help people on Earth. How generous of them

 

[Justcrazy]

If someone or entity makes poetry that a certain super power is going to collapse with in 10 years, it makes that entity a good military strategist.

Your statement would have been correct , if Muslims were fighting the Romans. But in this case , it was not true.

The point here is that the words of Quran did come true. Which cannot be disputed. Also , note , since the Quran is a book o f signs and Not science , in Arabic language , things are spoken like that.

For example , when prophet tried to make prayer for a hypocrite who died , Allah swt says that even if you pray 70 times I will not forgive him. Now does that mean that if he did 71st time , it will work? NO.

That is how literature is written.

Again the exact date is not the point that is being conveyed here , what is told is that success and failure are not permanent . If the date was given , then the question will be asked how long the battle will last , how many soldiers will participate , how many will die etc etc. There is never end of questions asked. So Quran would need 1000 volumes to satisfy all details.

 

[Stewie]

I don't get your point. You said Sun and Moon do not cross their paths as though it is supposed to be some miracle of God. I told you, Sun and Moon do not cross their path not because of God. I gave proper explanation to everything including their supposed Orbits mentioned in your scriptures.

So you are saying Quran is explaining things from the point of view of humans? Anyone with a working brain who looks up at the sky everyday can observe what your scriptures are saying. There is no miracle in it.

PS- It is not God that is stopping Sun and Moon to overtake each other. Anyone with basic Astronomy knowledge know that it will never happen.

The point is that Allah created the mechanism for all the cosmic objects and their states. We use science to explain how they behave but Allah created them and put them in that order.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Yep they are their own creators typical atheist arguments. They just one day decided to move in a certain symmetry so they could help people on Earth. How generous of them

There is no comeback from you. Take the loss and move on.

Just accept that your scriptures have mistakes. Instead of accepting the mistakes now you are saying the planets and Sun are that way because God did it.

 

[Champ_Pal]

The point is that Allah created the mechanism for all the cosmic objects and their states. We use science to explain how they behave but Allah created them and put them in that order.

That is not the point. If that is the point, you can replace your god with a cosmic teddy bear or the mighty JoJo and say they did it.

Your scripture said that God makes sure that Sun and Moon do not overtake each other. The same goes for day and night.

Day and night are caused by earths rotation. Not because someone is actively creating them and making sure they do not overtake or overlap.

Sun appears to orbit around the earth because earth again is rotating on its axis. So it appears at different positions during the day. Not because someone is controlling actively it’s position.

This is all 2nd grade science. But the scriptures faltered badly there.

 

[Stewie]

That is not the point. If that is the point, you can replace your god with a cosmic teddy bear or the mighty JoJo and say they did it.

Your scripture said that God makes sure that Sun and Moon do not overtake each other. The same goes for day and night.

Day and night are caused by earths rotation. Not because someone is actively creating them and making sure they do not overtake or overlap.

Sun appears to orbit around the earth because earth again is rotating on its axis. So it appears at different positions during the day. Not because someone is controlling actively it’s position.

This is all 2nd grade science. But the scriptures faltered badly there.

No that is the point. If you would like to actually understand it, maybe it will help you but you want want to denigrate every one and everything inspite of the fact that you just got educated today that Sun does have an orbit and yet for some reason you continue to insist you know or knew better. Maybe try harder and educate yourself a bit more rather than watching YouTube videos and coming off as entirely rigid to not learn new things.

 

[Champ_Pal]

No that is the point. If you would like to actually understand it, maybe it will help you but you want want to denigrate every one and everything inspite of the fact that you just got educated today that Sun does have an orbit and yet for some reason you continue to insist you know or knew better. Maybe try harder and educate yourself a bit more rather than watching YouTube videos and coming off as entirely rigid to not learn new things

Sun has an orbit around the galaxy. Not around earth.

I feel you guys are too embarrassed to accept the fact that your scriptures have errors in it. Instead of accepting, you are blaming me for pointing to the right answer.

It’s a shame that people cannot call a spade a spade. They have to do all kinds of word gimmicks and break dances to avoid the embarrassment.

 

[Stewie]

Sun has an orbit around the galaxy. Not around earth.

I feel you guys are too embarrassed to accept the fact that your scriptures have errors in it. Instead of accepting, you are blaming me for pointing to the right answer.

It’s a shame that people cannot call a spade a spade. They have to do all kinds of word gimmicks and break dances to avoid the embarrassment.

Can you present any Quranic verses that says otherwise? You are making stuff up about the Sun's orbit around Earth. Why don't you prove it to me that's the case? Those are the FACTS you want to ignore.

 

[Red-Indian]

To be very honest, I am not a deeply religious person. I have been here a long time and my previous posts and record will show I have butted heads with extremely religious people here. I am not the pray five times a day type of guy. But I believe in God and I believe in the guidance we have.
I have defended liberal causes such as BLM/LGBTQ movements probably more than your average Pakistani here.

The reason I participate in these discussions is not to enforce my view, or to express my “religiousness” on others. Because quite honestly I am not religious.

I participate here because I feel the flexibility and openness of this forum is being taken for a ride by some Indian posters here, perhaps as a backlash for our opposition to the rising hindutva and anti-Muslim sentiment in India.

In the name of debate, I have seen some posters continue to attack just the idea of belief and God, try to portray our faith as some sort of a menace, and other such nonsense from the likes of other so-called “Hindu atheists” asking for proof of the existence of God, totally false and contorted claims about shariat, etc.

I don’t think most folks here have done a decent enough job to provide responses to such garbage. But now I get involved I realize that these people are just trolls and really we won’t achieve anything substantial by co tinting this charade. It will probably be best if their posts get reported or these people get ignored on the whole. They seem to have time on their hands and unfortunately I don’t have the luxury of wasting mine here.

Ah...fair enough. I'm way past the need to defend my (lack of) belief. There was a time when I used to engage in passionate debate seeking to disprove faith and defend atheism. Now I realise it matters to no one but myself what I believe.

Unlike you, I've been on this forum less than a year and I already see all kinds. - religious fanatics (primarily Muslims but not necessarily), virulent atheists, fantasy conspiracy theorists, trolls and I guess, 'meh'-ers like me.

I notice the religious weirdos who need and find the scientific proof of god in the most obscure passages of their religious books and the atheist weirdos who miss the entire point of religion and seek to win the debate by proving some obscure point in the same scriptures wrong as if that will finally convince the believers.
In the end, I've realised security in your beliefs comes with maturity. You can only get as worked by the nonsense as you allow yourself to be.

 

[Stewie]

Ah...fair enough. I'm way past the need to defend my (lack of) belief. There was a time when I used to engage in passionate debate seeking to disprove faith and defend atheism. Now I realise it matters to no one but myself what I believe.

Unlike you, I've been on this forum less than a year and I already see all kinds. - religious fanatics (primarily Muslims but not necessarily), virulent atheists, fantasy conspiracy theorists, trolls and I guess, 'meh'-ers like me.

I notice the religious weirdos who need and find the scientific proof of god in the most obscure passages of their religious books and the atheist weirdos who miss the entire point of religion and seek to win the debate by proving some obscure point in the same scriptures wrong as if that will finally convince the believers.
In the end, I've realised security in your beliefs comes with maturity. You can only get as worked by the nonsense as you allow yourself to be.

Why do you think your compatriot @champs_pal is so adamant in proving Islamic God is untrue while in defense of his atheism? I know you will laugh at this but he does not seem to think Jewish, Christian Gods are the same as Muslim God and he never seems to question them but he definitely seems to advocate for atheism only by trying to disprove the existence of Islamic God.

Would you like to shed some light on this weird phenomenon?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Can you present any Quranic verses that says otherwise? You are making stuff up about the Sun's orbit around Earth. Why don't you prove it to me that's the case? Those are the FACTS you want to ignore.

And He is the One Who created the day and the night, the sun and the moon—each travelling in an orbit.
It is not allowable for the Sun to reach the Moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming

Surah Al-Anbya - 33 - Quran.com

And He is the One Who created the day and the night, the sun and the moon—each travelling in an orbit.

quran.com

No one creates day and night. It is caused by Earth's rotation. Sun and Moon will never overtake each other. How can they the way Solar system works? It is not God that is neither creating day and night nor stopping them from overlapping. This is stilly.

Quran also claims that God holds the birds when they are in the air flying.
(67:19) of chapter (67) sūrat l-mulk (Dominion): Sahih International: Do they not see the birds above them with wings outspread and [sometimes] folded in? None holds them [aloft] except the Most Merciful.

Now we have to believe that God is keeping birds from falling down when they are flying?

 

[Stewie]

And He is the One Who created the day and the night, the sun and the moon—each travelling in an orbit.
It is not allowable for the Sun to reach the Moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming

Surah Al-Anbya - 33 - Quran.com

And He is the One Who created the day and the night, the sun and the moon—each travelling in an orbit.

quran.com

No one creates day and night. It is caused by Earth's rotation. Sun and Moon will never overtake each other. How can they the way Solar system works? It is not God that is neither creating day and night nor stopping them from overlapping. This is stilly.

Quran also claims that God holds the birds when they are in the air flying.
(67:19) of chapter (67) sūrat l-mulk (Dominion): Sahih International: Do they not see the birds above them with wings outspread and [sometimes] folded in? None holds them [aloft] except the Most Merciful.

Now we have to believe that God is keeping birds from falling down when they are flying?

See you are dodging the point. Its a lot of riff raff but no you don't have the answer to your incorrect claim and lack of knowledge.

You claim Sun does not have an orbit. Sun does have an orbit. You claim Quran says Sun has an orbit around the earth and when asked to present any evidence of such a claim you respond with "No one creates day and night. It is caused by Earth's rotation. Sun and Moon will never overtake each other. How can they the way Solar system works? It is not God that is neither creating day and night nor stopping them from overlapping. This is stilly."

still unable to prove that Quraniv verses from 1400 years ago still cannot be disproven by science. You are like a child continuing to say say no to everything when it is put in front of you. Well what more can one do then?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Can you present any Quranic verses that says otherwise? You are making stuff up about the Sun's orbit around Earth. Why don't you prove it to me that's the case? Those are the FACTS you want to ignore.

He NEVER would be able to do that.

 

[Stewie]

He NEVER would be able to do that.

a lot of champion riff_raff. not much substance. Pretty much how atheism is overall. A lot of fluff, not much substance.

 

[Stewie]

 

[HalBass9]

And He is the One Who created the day and the night, the sun and the moon—each travelling in an orbit.
It is not allowable for the Sun to reach the Moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming

Surah Al-Anbya - 33 - Quran.com

And He is the One Who created the day and the night, the sun and the moon—each travelling in an orbit.

quran.com

No one creates day and night. It is caused by Earth's rotation. Sun and Moon will never overtake each other. How can they the way Solar system works? It is not God that is neither creating day and night nor stopping them from overlapping. This is stilly.

Quran also claims that God holds the birds when they are in the air flying.
(67:19) of chapter (67) sūrat l-mulk (Dominion): Sahih International: Do they not see the birds above them with wings outspread and [sometimes] folded in? None holds them [aloft] except the Most Merciful.

Now we have to believe that God is keeping birds from falling down when they are flying?

It seems you're placing too much emphasis on disproving a specific religion.

While humanity has made significant progress in understanding science, the question of who or what governs it is ultimately a matter of personal belief. Whether you accept it or not is entirely your choice.

 

[Stewie]

It seems you're placing too much emphasis on disproving a specific religion.

While humanity has made significant progress in understanding science, the question of who or what governs it is ultimately a matter of personal belief. Whether you accept it or not is entirely your choice.

I rarely see him try to do the same with HINDUISM or Christianity or Judaism. Heck I am sure he does not even know much about the latter two. The Godi Modi people only gave him certain talking points against Islam to go post on forums.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I rarely see him try to do the same with HINDUISM or Christianity or Judaism. Heck I am sure he does not even know much about the latter two. The Godi Modi people only gave him certain talking points against Islam to go post on forums.

Hopefully one day brother champ pal will find the truth

 

[Stewie]

Hopefully one day brother champ pal will find the truth

Like he found out today that Sun does have an orbit, you mean? All these years he was walking around smugly showing his atheist badge to others claiming Sun is stationary. No other atheist actually felt the need to correct him. Probably because none of them actually knew the truth either. They just love to say "Science will save us" but don't know any proper science to begin with.

 

[HalBass9]

I rarely see him try to do the same with HINDUISM or Christianity or Judaism. Heck I am sure he does not even know much about the latter two. The Godi Modi people only gave him certain talking points against Islam to go post on forums.

He lacks a genuine understanding of Islam. Simply copying and pasting information is not an informed or meaningful way to engage in a discussion aimed at challenging a particular belief. Each of his posts reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of both religion in general and Islam in particular.

I am also quite certain that his grasp of Hinduism, despite being a religion some admire while masking it with atheism, is equally superficial.

 

[Stewie]

He lacks a genuine understanding of Islam. Simply copying and pasting information is not an informed or meaningful way to engage in a discussion aimed at challenging a particular belief. Each of his posts reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of both religion in general and Islam in particular.

I am also quite certain that his grasp of Hinduism, despite being a religion some admire while masking it with atheism, is equally superficial.

He lacks a genuine understanding of science as well.

 

[Stewie]

The only reason Champs_Pal became an atheist was because they told him its a non-prophet organization.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Why do you think your compatriot @champs_pal is so adamant in proving Islamic God is untrue while in defense of his atheism? I know you will laugh at this but he does not seem to think Jewish, Christian Gods are the same as Muslim God and he never seems to question them but he definitely seems to advocate for atheism only by trying to disprove the existence of Islamic God.

Would you like to shed some light on this weird phenomenon?

All Gods are untrue and I will point out all the mistakes that are presented as facts.

 

[Champ_Pal]

The only reason Champs_Pal became an atheist was because they told him its a non-prophet organization.

Cool story. Prophet or not, when laughable things are presented as facts, it only makes people like me point out the obvious

 

[Champ_Pal]

Like he found out today that Sun does have an orbit, you mean? All these years he was walking around smugly showing his atheist badge to others claiming Sun is stationary. No other atheist actually felt the need to correct him. Probably because none of them actually knew the truth either. They just love to say "Science will save us" but don't know any proper science to begin with.

I found out that sun has an orbit?

The orbit that Quran is talking is not the orbit of sun around the galaxy. It is talking about the orbit around the earth. Otherwise Quran would not say that god makes sure that they do not overtake each other

I know it’s not fun for believers to defend the indefensible. It’s okay to accept that there are mistakes in Quran just like there are in Bible or Torah. I put Hindu scriptures in the category of mythology. No point in discussing the faults in it.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

He NEVER would be able to do that.

I found out that sun has an orbit?

The orbit that Quran is talking is not the orbit of sun around the galaxy. It is talking about the orbit around the earth. Otherwise Quran would not say that god makes sure that they do not overtake each other

I know it’s not fun for believers to defend the indefensible. It’s okay to accept that there are mistakes in Quran just like there are in Bible or Torah. I put Hindu scriptures in the category of mythology. No point in discussing the faults in it.

My above statement Still stands true. Brother champ pal show us the verse not your misconception of something

 

[The Bald Eagle]

@Champ_Pal if you could prove Quran meant sun revolving around Earth then I would willingly be an atheist. But will you revert to Islam if otherwise. Let's make this simple deal

 

[Champ_Pal]

@Champ_Pal if you could prove Quran meant sun revolving around Earth then I would willingly be an atheist. But will you revert to Islam if otherwise. Let's make this simple deal

I was pointing out the fact that Quran says that Mokn and Sun have orbits and do not over take each other. Why will their orbits over take each other?

It also claims that God creates Day and night and Gid makes sure they do not overlap.

Come on!

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I was pointing out the fact that Quran says that Mokn and Sun have orbits and do not over take each other. Why will their orbits over take each other?

It also claims that God creates Day and night and Gid makes sure they do not overlap.

Come on!

Could there ever be a day or night in a black hole? Who created the Sun with a purpose? I know you will say science

 

[Champ_Pal]

My above statement Still stands true. Brother champ pal show us the verse not your misconception of something

So when Quran talks about the orbits of Moon and Sun and it proceeds to say that God ensures that they do not over take each other, what does not mean?

I will tell you. It means the author of the Quran thinks that both Moon and Sun have orbits around earth and God makes sure they do not overtake each other. Duh!

Do you also agree that God holds up the birds in the air when they fly?

 

[Stewie]

I was pointing out the fact that Quran says that Mokn and Sun have orbits and do not over take each other. Why will their orbits over take each other?

It also claims that God creates Day and night and Gid makes sure they do not overlap.

Come on!

Before you were in your knickers in 4th or fifth grade and some teacher told you about orbits and celestial bodies, and orbits, you didn't even know what they were and that they could not over take each other. Someone must have told you or educated you on that (while forgetting to mention that Sun does have an orbit and its not stationary like you have always believed and probably still believe till today)

so the same way people 1400 years ago did not know about that and God decided to tell them that they are in their own paths and they cannot cross each other. I don't see what exactly is so wondrous about that statement. God forbid, if there was something like "They can zigzag across each other" mentioned in it, we would probably all be offering our sympathies to your loved ones at shamshaan ghaat because you would have died of excitement ... mouth left open in exclamation "I GOT THOSE DAMN MU.**IES!!! YES I GOT THEM FINALLY"

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Can birds fly in vaccum? Just give simple answer.

And on orbit verse the Quran mentions that Moon and Sun each has an orbit. Prove it wrong. Just show me one place where even the translation of Quran suggest what you are talking about. So brother champ pal it seems you will embrace Islam soon as per our above agreement

So when Quran talks about the orbits of Moon and Sun and it proceeds to say that God ensures that they do not over take each other, what does not mean?

I will tell you. It means the author of the Quran thinks that both Moon and Sun have orbits around earth and God makes sure they do not overtake each other. Duh!

Do you also agree that God holds up the birds in the air when they fly?

 

[Stewie]

So when Quran talks about the orbits of Moon and Sun and it proceeds to say that God ensures that they do not over take each other, what does not mean?

I will tell you. It means the author of the Quran thinks that both Moon and Sun have orbits around earth and Gif makes sure they do not overtake each other. Duh!

Do you also agree that God holds up the birds in the air when they fly?

it does not mean someone is holding the orbits from running over each other and God told him to do that. It means he created the natural forces of the universe to do that work for him.

In case you don't know, and I am pretty sure you don't, there are FOUR natural forces in the universe that govern the laws of physics (That we know of) They are Gravity, Electromagnetism, Strong and Weak natural forces. Now what will really blow your mind if if I ask you who created those forces?

Muslims believe God created those forces and the mechanism using those forces to control the universe as we see it.

 

[Champ_Pal]

it does not mean your chacha is holding the orbits from running over each other and God told him to do that. It means he created the natural forces of the universe to do that work for him.

In case you don't know, and I am pretty sure you don't, there are FOUR natural forces in the universe that govern the laws of physics (That we know of) They are Gravity, Electromagnetism, Strong and Weak natural forces. Now what will really blow your mind if if I ask you who created those forces?

Muslims believe God created those forces and the mechanism using those forces to control the universe as we see it.

Amazing to evade the mistake.

I know all the fundamental forces. The author of the Quran does not know that these forces exist. Show me where they are mentioned in Quran?

 

[Stewie]

Amazing tap dance steps to evade the mistake.

I know all the fundamental forces. The author of the Quran does not know that these forces exist. Show me where they are mentioned in Quran?

What's next? you demand to know the Google maps of earth in the Quran? The result of the next US presidential election? Modis "hit the bucket" date? The name of the highest selling stock in 2025? The secret to building enough toilets in India?

 

[Stewie]

oh hey @champs_pal..

you know that shiny thing called the Sun.. It does have an orbit by the way.

I thought I should keep reminding you so you don't embarrass yourself in front of your young nephews and nieces while preaching atheism to them.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Can birds fly in vaccum? Just give simple answer.

And on orbit verse the Quran mentions that Moon and Sun each has an orbit. Prove it wrong. Just show me one place where even the translation of Quran suggest what you are talking about. So brother champ pal it seems you will embrace Islam soon as per our above agreement

Birds cannot fly in vacuum. They need lift and thrust to achieve flight which. Can only happen when air is present.

No God is holding their wings and stopping them from falling this is silly. Tomorrow you might tell me that God also holds airplanes in the air and keep them from falling to the ground.

I never said that Moon and Sun do not have an orbit. But Quran in the same sentence mentions that God makes sure they do not over take each other. How the hell can they overtake when their orbits are completely different?

The mere mention of the Moon and Sun overtaking each other shows that Quran believes they both run around the earth and God makes sure they do not cross each other.

Why don’t you guys just accept the mistake and move on? No scripture is perfect. They all fall apart with a bit of scrutiny.

 

[Champ_Pal]

What's next? you demand to know the Google maps of earth in the Quran? The result of the next US presidential election? Modis "hit the bucket" date? The name of the highest selling stock in 2025? The secret to building enough toilets in India?

Nah, you mentioned that God created all the fundamental forces. He did not mention it in Quran. But you are happy to attribute everything to him without any evidence from your book.

I am only asking for the source of your claim and you went on a tangent.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Birds cannot fly in vacuum. They need lift and thrust to achieve flight which. Can only happen when air is present.

No God is holding their wings and stopping them from falling this is silly. Tomorrow you might tell me that God also holds airplanes in the air and keep them from falling to the ground.

I never said that Moon and Sun do not have an orbit. But Quran in the same sentence mentions that God makes sure they do not over take each other. How the hell can they overtake when their orbits are completely different?

The mere mention of the Moon and Sun overtaking each other shows that Quran believes they both run around the earth and God makes sure they do not cross each other.

Why don’t you guys just accept the mistake and move on? No scripture is perfect. They all fall apart with a bit of scrutiny.

Ok who created the air? Lol air created itself

Why don't you accept your mistake, it's you not Quran who says both were going to collide. Still insisting SHOW THE VERSE not your inadequate knowledge to us @Champ_Pal .

Challenge of conversion still stands brother champ pal. Be ready for reverting to truth

 

[Champ_Pal]

oh hey @champs_pal..

you know that shiny thing called the Sun.. It does have an orbit by the way.

I thought I should keep reminding you so you don't embarrass yourself in front of your young nephews and nieces while preaching atheism to them.

I was the one that mentioned that sun has an orbit around the black hole. Not around the earth.
I’ve yet to flip it on me. Fail!!

 

[Champ_Pal]

Ok who created the air? Lol air created itself

Why don't you accept your mistake, it's you not Quran who says both were going to collide. Still insisting SHOW THE VERSE not your inadequate knowledge to us @Champ_Pal .

Challenge of conversion still stands brother champ pal. Be ready for reverting to truth

There you go. Who created air, who created this or that. They are all formed after big bang and Science is trying to understand how all this formed. We have to wait for answers.

I know all you smart people already figured out everything. The almighty Magic Wand!!

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Nah, you mentioned that God created all the fundamental forces. He did not mention it in Quran. But you are happy to attribute everything to him without any evidence from your book.

I am only asking for the source of your claim and you went on a tangent.

What's next? you demand to know the Google maps of earth in the Quran? The result of the next US presidential election? Modis "hit the bucket" date? The name of the highest selling stock in 2025? The secret to building enough toilets in India?

Lol do you still need clarification after @Stewie above comment.

Ok just for you God claims to create EVERYTHING seen or unseen.

"That is Allah , your Lord; there is no deity except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Disposer of all things" Verse (6:102)

 

[The Bald Eagle]

There you go. Who created air, who created this or that. They are all formed after big bang and Science is trying to understand how all this formed. We have to wait for answers.

I know all you smart people already figured out everything. The almighty Magic Wand!!

Lol how the heavenly body exists before big bang....."O science is still figuring it out" lol carry on for eternity then science and @Champ_Pal

 

[Stewie]

Ok who created the air? Lol air created itself

Why don't you accept your mistake, it's you not Quran who says both were going to collide. Still insisting SHOW THE VERSE not your inadequate knowledge to us @Champ_Pal .

Challenge of conversion still stands brother champ pal. Be ready for reverting to truth

Just wait and watch. He will ask you for proof God created air

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Just wait and watch. He will ask you for proof God created air

He will keep asking for proofs but would never give one for his claims.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Lol how the heavenly body exists before big bang....."O science is still figuring it out" lol carry on for eternity then science and @Champ_Pal

Who said heavenly bodies existed before big bang?

carry on blindly defending things that are obviously false.

 

[HalBass9]

I believe it would be more productive to engage in a debate with an atheist who genuinely understands the nuances of belief, religion, and science, rather than with someone who merely claims to be an atheist to dehumanize Muslims.

A sincere and intellectually inclined atheist would not respond with such a basic and immature grasp of the concepts being discussed. Frankly, this seems like a waste of time.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Who said heavenly bodies existed before big bang?

carry on blindly defending things that are obviously false.

What existed before the Big Bang?

Exactly what existed before the birth of our own Universe remains a mystery, but that is not stopping some physicists from trying to figure it out.

www.bbc.com

Thanks for falling into the trap. See you later

 

[Champ_Pal]

What existed before the Big Bang?

Exactly what existed before the birth of our own Universe remains a mystery, but that is not stopping some physicists from trying to figure it out.

www.bbc.com

Thanks for falling into the trap. See you later

I know scientists have found some galaxies that are older than the Big Bang date in recent times. That has nothing do with our topic of discussion.

There is no trap that you think I have fallen.

The point of discussion is Sun and Moon have orbits and God ensures that they do not over take each other. That has nothing to do with big bang. Nice attempt to divert the topic. Science is not your forte.

Quran clearly explains that without God’s help both Sun nd moon will over take each other.

To back it up there is a verse that states that after sun sets, it goes under the throne of Allah and waits for his permission to rise up again. Say what!!

This clearly shows that the author of the Quran believed that Sun orbits in the sky and after it sets( clearly an illusion for people on earth) it goes somewhere(in this case under the throne of Allah) and waits there seeking allah’s permission.

Someones’a sunset is sunrise for some others on this blue . Sun does not go anywhere. It stays where it is in the sky from earth’s point of view orbiting the galaxy along with all planets in the solar system.

Such basic mistakes cannot be from the all knowing all powerful creator if he or she or it exists.

 

[Justcrazy]

There is no comeback from you. Take the loss and move on.

Just accept that your scriptures have mistakes. Instead of accepting the mistakes now you are saying the planets and Sun are that way because God did it.

which is the strongest mistake you find in Quran ?

 

[Stewie]

which is the strongest mistake you find in Quran ?

It’s too smart and complicated for brother @champs_pal to understand.

That’s it’s biggest crime!

 

[Champ_Pal]

which is the strongest mistake you find in Quran ?

From the top of my head, I can think of one thing. But it is from Hadith.

Sun prostrates under the throne of Allah after it sets and waits for his permission to rise again. How do you explain that?

 

[Stewie]

From the top of my head, I can think of one thing. But it is from Hadith.

Sun prostrates under the throne of Allah after it sets and waits for his permission to rise again. How do you explain that?

 

[Champ_Pal]

I know its really funny. Sun goes and Prostrates after it sets. Brilliant.

 

[Stewie]

I know its really funny. Sun goes and Prostrates after it sets. Brilliant.

You should provide evidence, tradition of this Hadith.. how authentic it is and all that good stuff.

Hey one more thing. Sun also has an orbit and it’s not motionless, contrary to what you believe.

 

[Champ_Pal]

You should provide evidence, tradition of this Hadith.. how authentic it is and all that good stuff.

Hey one more thing. Sun also has an orbit and it’s not motionless, contrary to what you believe.

Sun is stationary from Earth’s point of view because we are orbiting galaxy along with Sun. The only reason Sun appears to move for us is because of Earth’s spin on its own axis.
It’s ok. Science is not your strong point.

When you have people believing that there is a mountain of snow in the sky that God throws at bad people on earth, nothing can be done to change their views.

Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet (ﷺ) asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All- Knowing." (36.38)

Sahih al-Bukhari 3199 - Beginning of Creation - كتاب بدء الخلق - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic

sunnah.com

The above can only be spoken by someone who has no idea about solar system.

 

[Champ_Pal]

For people who think Sun orbits around earth. We have some amazing people around here that laugh when I said Sun is stationary from Earth’s point of view.
Watch the below simple animation. It’s elementary.

 

[Stewie]

@Champ_Pal you still need to prove that’s what you meant when you said Sun doesn’t have an orbit. Now you are jumping through hoops. Sun isn’t motionless. It moves in an orbit. You claimed it doesn’t have an orbit in your rush to claim Quran is wrong.

Keep trying but so far you haven’t proven your statement about the sun is correct.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

For people who think Sun orbits around earth. We have some amazing people around here that laugh when I said Sun is stationary from Earth’s point of view.
Watch the below simple animation. It’s elementary.

@Champ_Pal you still need to prove that’s what you meant when you said Sun doesn’t have an orbit. Now you are jumping through hoops. Sun isn’t motionless. It moves in an orbit. You claimed it doesn’t have an orbit in your rush to claim Quran is wrong.

Keep trying but so far you haven’t proven your statement about the sun is correct.

May brother Champ pal could mention the people here who launched this gaffe that sun orbits Earth as it's center. Unfortunately he will come across himself

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I know scientists have found some galaxies that are older than the Big Bang date in recent times. That has nothing do with our topic of discussion.

There is no trap that you think I have fallen.

The point of discussion is Sun and Moon have orbits and God ensures that they do not over take each other. That has nothing to do with big bang. Nice attempt to divert the topic. Science is not your forte.

Quran clearly explains that without God’s help both Sun nd moon will over take each other.

To back it up there is a verse that states that after sun sets, it goes under the throne of Allah and waits for his permission to rise up again. Say what!!

This clearly shows that the author of the Quran believed that Sun orbits in the sky and after it sets( clearly an illusion for people on earth) it goes somewhere(in this case under the throne of Allah) and waits there seeking allah’s permission.

Someones’a sunset is sunrise for some others on this blue . Sun does not go anywhere. It stays where it is in the sky from earth’s point of view orbiting the galaxy along with all planets in the solar system.

Such basic mistakes cannot be from the all knowing all powerful creator if he or she or it exists.

Well didn't big bang theory suggest that everything came out of this explosion then where does these "some other galaxies" come from. Lol @Champ_Pal please explain.

 

[Stewie]

Well didn't big bang said that everything came out of this explosion then where does these "some other galaxies" come from. Lol @Champ_Pal please explain.

@champs_pal wrote to God asking for proof of those other galaxies when he was a wee atheist in a wee dress. The wait continues…

 

[rpant_gabba]

It seems you're placing too much emphasis on disproving a specific religion.

While humanity has made significant progress in understanding science, the question of who or what governs it is ultimately a matter of personal belief. Whether you accept it or not is entirely your choice.

Agree.

the problem starts up when you start demanding don't eat my favorite/sacred animal, make exception for my favorite fairytale/myth/scripture in you freedom of expression, provide tax breaks for our religious party halls

Keep for what it is. your personal belief. just like your favorite football or hockey team

 

[Stewie]

Agree.

the problem starts up when you start demanding don't eat my favorite/sacred animal, make exception for my favorite fairytale/myth/scripture in you freedom of expression, provide tax breaks for our religious party halls

Keep for what it is. your personal belief. just like your favorite football or hockey team

I have been advocating for a universal atheist tax around the world. We could use the funds to sponsor advanced research into why sun is still stationary like brother @Champ_Pal claims.

We needs us some hard evidence, mayn!

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I have found that many Indians appear to hide behind the flexibility and lackadaisical approach of some Hindu denominations to pretend they are atheist with the sole aim of taking aim at Islam.

 

[rpant_gabba]

Easy for you to say. You ain’t got brother @Champ_Pal chasing you around asking for proof of how God is making ducks quack and cows fart while out in the field

thats what happens why you belief system borrows and makes stuff up and makes claims it cannot back up

 

[sweep_shot]

thats what happens why you belief system borrows and makes stuff up and makes claims it cannot back up

How do you sleep at night with this much hatred?

Know that your hatred has no affect on Islam and Muslims. You are only causing harm to yourself (hatred affects health negatively).

May God guide you.

 

[Stewie]

thats what happens why you belief system borrows and makes stuff up and makes claims it cannot back up

That happens when you hold prejudice against particular faith… period

Nothing else can justify such attitudes. Beliefs are personal and no business of others. Atheists love to preach this to others except when it concerns them.