Dawah, Islamic Law, Punishments & Limits in Islam

[KingKhanWC]

You mean the Chinese cannot?

Not more than the companions of the prophet pbuh , who he was advising . This is embarrassing now

 

[Champ_Pal]

Not more than the companions of the prophet pbuh , who he was advising . This is embarrassing now

Nothing Embarrassing. It can also mean for future Muslims, they can go to China if they want to seek knowledge on Islam. You do know that Companions cannot live forever.

 

[Champ_Pal]

lol you don’t even have a clue what evidence you need to believe. Because it saves time & you may get this quickly or not .

Stop wasting peoples time , you’re a Hindu parading as an atheist . I’ll tag you in the Hindu thread .

Give me picture evidence, fossil evidence, tool evidence.

We can see through JWST telescope almost to the point of big bang. If Humans can do that, I am sure God with all his power would leave some evidence for his slaves.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Nothing Embarrassing. It can also mean for future Muslims, they can go to China if they want to seek knowledge on Islam. You do know that Companions cannot live forever.

Where in China has there been more knowledge than in the Muslim world?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Give me picture evidence, fossil evidence, tool evidence.

We can see through JWST telescope almost to the point of big bang. If Humans can do that, I am sure God with all his power would leave some evidence for his slaves.

You want fossil evidence of a creator ?

This is just trolling .

 

[Champ_Pal]

You want fossil evidence of a creator ?

This is just trolling .

May be tool evidence. Or picture evidence.

Why not fossil evidence? God could've creates an animal that is 13.8 billion years old and buried it with a stone carving for future humans to excavate and verify.
If he can create a flying horse, I am sure he could do that.

 

[Stewie]

You want fossil evidence of a creator ?

This is just trolling .

Been saying that for a while now. Troll alert.. troll alert.

 

[Stewie]

May be tool evidence. Or picture evidence.

Why not fossil evidence? God could've creates an animal that is 13.8 billion years old and buried it with a stone carving for future humans to excavate and verify.
If he can create a flying horse, I am sure he could do that.

Why would God be so desperate to prove His existence to the believers? If He wanted, He would just manifest Himself on us in the current day and age rather than using the Champ_Pal logic or method of convoluted confused mess disguised as science.

Therein lies the challenge for you Champ_Pal. Do you want to confuse yourself or do you want to admit you are not an atheist? There are no wrong answers here. Only admission of association. You don't have to defend your faith.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Why would God be so desperate to prove His existence to the believers? If He wanted, He would just manifest Himself on us in the current day and age rather than using the Champ_Pal logic or method of convoluted confused mess disguised as science.

Therein lies the challenge for you Champ_Pal. Do you want to confuse yourself or do you want to admit you are not an atheist? There are no wrong answers here. Only admission of association. You don't have to defend your faith.

Because if he exists, he would know that questions will be raised about his existence by hoomans in the future. A simple verifiable proof would have worked. We have no evidence for any such being.

What challenge man. You guys claim that your God created it. So you have to take up the challenge to prove it. So far, we heard a few hahas and some promising dance moves.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Been saying that for a while now. Troll alert.. troll alert.

Read post 327.

When asked for evidence, you can bypass it by naming the questioner as a troll. Clever.

 

[Stewie]

Because if he exists, he would know that questions will be raised about his existence by hoomans in the future. A simple verifiable proof would have worked. We have no evidence for any such being.

What challenge man. You guys claim that your God created it. So you have to take up the challenge to prove it. So far, we heard a few hahas and some promising dance moves.

But that is the test "hooman".

The test of faith. If God shows Himsef then of course you will fall inline and start prostrating. He wants to test us and see if we give in to the evil persuasions of Satan or hold firm believe in God and stay pious.

We do not have to prove anything or provide any evidence. This is probably the gazillionth time I am writing this line. So far based on this pattern and your response the only evidence I am able to present to you is one of your slow and questionable with and comprehension. That's all I got for your, brother Champ_pal. You keep asking for the wrong thing.

I am going to start assigning Quranic chapters for you to read. Do your homework first.

 

[Stewie]

Read post 327.

When asked for evidence, you can bypass it by naming the questioner as a troll. Clever.

I am sorry brother Champ_Pal, I cannot say the same for you. Get tested for dyslexia, you will thank me.

 

[LordJames]

May be tool evidence. Or picture evidence.

Why not fossil evidence? God could've creates an animal that is 13.8 billion years old and buried it with a stone carving for future humans to excavate and verify.
If he can create a flying horse, I am sure he could do that.

Can you provide tool or picture evidence for your Intellect?

Don't skip the question.

 

[Stewie]

Can you provide tool or picture evidence for your Intellect?

Don't skip the question.

What is really going to break himis if you ask him to provide us a tangible evidence of his non-intellect, if he cannot find one for intellect.

 

[Stewie]

@Champ_Pal I applaud you for your persistent efforts though. You do try, a lot. Gotta give credit to you for not giving up though. Believe it or not, Allah is watching you and rooting for you as well. May you find the truth that you seek and join the circle of believers and find redemption in the afterlife, brother. Amen!

 

[Champ_Pal]

@Champ_Pal I applaud you for your persistent efforts though. You do try, a lot. Gotta give credit to you for not giving up though. Believe it or not, Allah is watching you and rooting for you as well. May you find the truth that you seek and join the circle of believers and find redemption in the afterlife, brother. Amen!

Watching me from where?

Not a single evidence was presented for the existence of God. I hope you also come out of this superstition soon.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Can you provide tool or picture evidence for your Intellect?

Don't skip the question.

I can test it with an IQ test. My ability to think and understand will prove it.

Now with God.... Ahem!!!!

 

[Stewie]

Watching me from where?

Not a single evidence was presented for the existence of God. I hope you also come out of this superstition soon.

Superstitions are purely ritualistic Hindu beliefs and have zero grounding in Abrahamic religions so I am going to have to ignore that comment. But Allah is everywhere and He can see you no matter what. So don't worry about Him not knowing where you are. I invite you to come to the light and embrace Islam. You will get the answers to all your confusion and will finally find the peace you are searching for.

 

[Champ_Pal]

I am sorry brother Champ_Pal, I cannot say the same for you. Get tested for dyslexia, you will thank me.

Your personal attacks on me will not prove the existence of God.

You still have not answered. Does God give us Rain and Hail? Does he throw hail at people on earth from a snow mountain in heavens? Please answer. Do not skip it.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Your personal attacks on me will not prove the existence of God.

You still have not answered. Does God give us Rain and Hail? Does he throw hail at people on earth from a snow mountain in heavens? Please answer. Do not skip it.

O poor brother champ pal. You yourself quoted a Quranic verse yesterday where ALLAH(SWT) said how cloud carries them as per will of God. Hope you could recall it.

Also check out the small video about finger tip below. The thing Quran predicted centuries ago and scientifically verifiable too.

 

[Stewie]

Your personal attacks on me will not prove the existence of God.

You still have not answered. Does God give us Rain and Hail? Does he throw hail at people on earth from a snow mountain in heavens? Please answer. Do not skip it.

My apologies if you feel aggrieved, that was not my intention. I mean you well and hence invite you to join us in the brotherhood. Read the Quran and come to us with any questions. We have to use the faith here to help you out of this rut in you are stuck in.

 

[Stewie]

O poor brother champ pal. You yourself quoted a Quranic verse yesterday where ALLAH(SWT) said how cloud carries them as per will of God. Hope you could recall it.

Also check out the small video about finger tip below. The thing Quran predicted centuries ago and scientifically verifiable too.

You should not share Zakir Naik's videos with Hindus. He stole most of their auntys' lunch at school and it traumatizes them when you use this bearded skinny man to prove your point. I am sure most of them don't even play and watch these videos.

 

[Champ_Pal]

My apologies if you feel aggrieved, that was not my intention. I mean you well and hence invite you to join us in the brotherhood. Read the Quran and come to us with any questions. We have to use the faith here to help you out of this rut in you are stuck in.

Why don't you answer the simple question man. Do you believe that God gives us Rain and Hail? Does he throw hail at people on earth from a snow mountain in heavens?

A simple Yes or No will work for me.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

You should not share Zakir Naik's videos with Hindus. He stole most of their auntys' lunch at school and it traumatizes them when you use this bearded skinny man to prove your point. I am sure most of them don't even play and watch these videos.

Sad but true let me find another source. Although they should listen to the words rather than be bothered about the person speaking

 

[Stewie]

Why don't you answer the simple question man. Do you believe that God gives us Rain and Hail? Does he throw hail at people on earth from a snow mountain in heavens?

A simple Yes or No will work for me.

Why are you so worried about rain and hail? Has He been missing you unfortunately? DO you think I have a direct line to Him so next time he can make sure he gets you with his water spray gun or ice machine? Is that what you are hoping for or is there some other serious underlying condition you have such as hydrophobia?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Why are you so worried about rain and hail? Has He been missing you unfortunately? DO you think I have a direct line to Him so next time he can make sure he gets you with his water spray gun or ice machine? Is that what you are hoping for or is there some other serious underlying condition you have such as hydrophobia?

Holy Quran claims that it is the perfect unadulterated word of God. If God makes such mistakes about basic natural phenomenon like hail and Rain, how can the rest of the word of God be trusted? I want to see if an educated fellow like you accepts it blindly or have the courage to question the mistakes.

 

[deltexas]

If I didn’t believe in a creator it would be idiotic to ask him of anything. If fear brings out belief it means you’re not an atheist .

It seems you already have asked.


Chap starts a thread on Islam , suddenly all those who passionately defend Hindutva, become atheists

Again you live in your delusional world. Religion doesn't control every single minute of a lot of people's lives. A person's belief is their own. But shoving it down others is not acceptable. And i don't care if someone's an atheist- their kife their Choice. But why does it bother you so much ??

 

[The Bald Eagle]

@Champ_Pal, Quran predicted in 613 that Romans would defeat the Persians straight after the crushing defeat of Romans at hand of Persians (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Antioch_(613) and in 622 this prediction came true (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius'_campaign_of_622). Can anyone even predict such a turn around today?

"The Romans were vanquished in the closer region, and they, after being vanquished, will prevail within a certain number of years. To God belongs the command before and after. And that day, ones who believe will be glad with the help of God. He helps whom He wills. And He is The Almighty, The Compassionate."[Quran 30:2–5]

 

[Champ_Pal]

@Champ_Pal, Quran predicted in 613 that Romans would defeat the Persians straight after the crushing defeat of Romans at hand of Persians (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Antioch_(613) and in 622 this prediction came true (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius'_campaign_of_622). Can anyone even predict such a turn around today?

"The Romans were vanquished in the closer region, and they, after being vanquished, will prevail within a certain number of years. To God belongs the command before and after. And that day, ones who believe will be glad with the help of God. He helps whom He wills. And He is The Almighty, The Compassionate."[Quran 30:2–5]

The prediction says Romans will be vanquished again after certain number of years. Why is God guessing here? Shouldn't God say that they will be vanquished on this day, month and year? It looks like God is hedging his bets.

You have cleverly called it certain number of years. The actual verse says in 3 to 9 years. Why give such a long time range?


If an economist says that Tesla Stock will reach $1000 in the next 5 years and it comes out true, it does not mean that the economist is a genius.

I will give some credence if the prediction goes like this. In 2072 July 20th, a Super Power by the name United States of America will lose the battle to China. Now if it actually happens on that particular day and year, that will give it some credibility. If the Prediction says that in a few years America will fall and lets say that America actually falls after say 90 years, does it mean who ever made the prediction was divinely guided?
Come on man!

 

[The Bald Eagle]

The prediction says Romans will be vanquished again after certain number of years. Why is God guessing here? Shouldn't God say that they will be vanquished on this day, month and year? It looks like God is hedging his bets.

You have cleverly called it certain number of years. The actual verse says in 3 to 9 years. Why give such a long time range?


If an economist says that Tesla Stock will reach $1000 in the next 5 years and it comes out true, it does not mean that the economist is a genius.

I will give some credence if the prediction goes like this. In 2072 July 20th, a Super Power by the name United States of America will lose the battle to China. Now if it actually happens on that particular day and year, that will give it some credibility. If the Prediction says that in a few years America will fall and lets say that America actually falls after say 90 years, does it mean who ever made the prediction was divinely guided?
Come on man!

As I expected you won't be able to counter it. Just look at your logic brother champ pal. Now you will dictate God what to say or not. I give you the freedom of eternity to predict like in how many years China will defeat US in a war or vice versa. Or when exactly Pak or India will go against war with each other and who would be the victor. Take the above margin as cushion and please enlighten us. IF YOU EVER COULD

See you later.

 

[ghalib kichlu]

That's a pretty amusing explanation of decline in Muslim material progress. For example, is it your contention that the Mughals were deeply religious and there managed to govern India while modern Indian Muslims have become irreligious and therefore are only a minority community?

The simple explanation is that Western society managed to separate state from religion the earliest and evolved first, Asian societies like China and Japan managed to move away from religion next and saw progress, India broke free from shackles of centuries of restrictive Hinduism and is hopefully going next. Muslim states are still looking for answers in their religious books and will progress when they manage to break free.

I'm guessing it was Godse that gave you this freedom and also the bjp with their Conservative friends in the U.S who is progressing you further
Irony,maybe?
China moved away from religion and saw progress?
Which religion did they turn away from, the red book of Mao?

 

[ghalib kichlu]

Mashallah, This...

I believe converts from the sub continent like you are the future of Islam and original custodians Arabs etc of Islam need to learn a thing or or 2 from ppl like you.

Are we talking about abdul muttalib or maybe abu talib when we talk about the original custodians of Islam or just the hashim tribe in general?

Also the mughals were brought into India as they were seen as Liberal compared to the likes of Lodi etc
At the pinnacle of the Mughal rule and also under the Nizam of hyderabad India had one of the largest economies of the world which they haven't been able to match since

 

[Stewie]

Holy Quran claims that it is the perfect unadulterated word of God. If God makes such mistakes about basic natural phenomenon like hail and Rain, how can the rest of the word of God be trusted? I want to see if an educated fellow like you accepts it blindly or have the courage to question the mistakes.

God doesn’t make mistakes even though it may initially seem to us He does… it all will make sense at some point. That’s faith! And it doesn’t require proving or defending.

 

[anikrc1]

No refutation to my Proofs still.

 

[Champ_Pal]

God doesn’t make mistakes even though it may initially seem to us He does… it all will make sense at some point. That’s faith! And it doesn’t require proving or defending.

So what you are saying is that one day science will find out that indeed there is a mountain of snow in the sky and God throws ice at people who disobey him.

Love your optimism.

 

[Champ_Pal]

As I expected you won't be able to counter it. Just look at your logic brother champ pal. Now you will dictate God what to say or not. I give you the freedom of eternity to predict like in how many years China will defeat US in a war or vice versa. Or when exactly Pak or India will go against war with each other and who would be the victor. Take the above margin as cushion and please enlighten us. IF YOU EVER COULD

See you later.

My prediction is China will defeat US in 50-70 years from now.

India does not have to go to war with Pakistan to defeat it. Pakistan is doing a great job of it by itself.

 

[LordJames]

I can test it with an IQ test. My ability to think and understand will prove it.

Now with God.... Ahem!!!!

Absolutely incorrect. IQ test does not prove it.

Can you provide tool or picture evidence for your Intellect?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Absolutely incorrect. IQ test does not prove it.

Can you provide tool or picture evidence for your Intellect?

Intellect is not a physical thing brother. You can only measure it by Testing and finding out.

Creation of universe is a physical thing. You need physical proof for it.

 

[Stewie]

So what you are saying is that one day science will find out that indeed there is a mountain of snow in the sky and God throws ice at people who disobey him.

Love your optimism.

Well sometimes he sends tyrannical conquerors too who rape and pillage and perform forced conversions.

 

[Stewie]

Intellect is not a physical thing brother. You can only measure it by Testing and finding out.

Creation of universe is a physical thing. You need physical proof for it.

God is not a physical entity either. We never claimed He wa/is a physical being.

 

[Champ_Pal]

God is not a physical entity either. We never claimed He wa/is a physical being.

I am not asking for a photographic evidence of God. At least a stone inscription that is 13.8 billion years would work.
If the inscription says, I am God and I created this universe and your earth is just a tiny spec in it.

Of course, if there is photographic or video evidence, it will be amazing.

 

[LordJames]

Intellect is not a physical thing brother. You can only measure it by Testing and finding out.

Creation of universe is a physical thing. You need physical proof for it.

1. Good, so first you climbed down from your demands for tool or picture evidence and admit that certain things cannot be proven by those means.
2. Creation is different to Creator

Do you get both points or do you want me to use fewer words?

Secondly, happy to engage with you provided you commit to:

a) Discussion and don't run away
b) Read
c) Respond to what is being discussed
d) Don't lie.

Give me your word and we will go from there...

 

[Stewie]

I am not asking for a photographic evidence of God. At least a stone inscription that is 13.8 billion years would work.
If the inscription says, I am God and I created this universe and your earth is just a tiny spec in it.

Of course, if there is photographic or video evidence, it will be amazing.

It’s very interesting that you think God would care about what you would “like” to see. I really want to eat a full deg of nihari every weekend and not result in putting on weight or high cholesterol.

Too bad that doesn’t happen, I guess God doesn’t exist?

 

[Stewie]

1. Good, so first you climbed down from your demands for tool or picture evidence and admit that certain things cannot be proven by those means.
2. Creation is different to Creator

Do you get both points or do you want me to use fewer words?

Secondly, happy to engage with you provided you commit to:

a) Discussion and don't run away
b) Read
c) Respond to what is being discussed
d) Don't lie.

Give me your word and we will go from there...

Good luck with that. He is a fleeting moment he won’t retain an ounce of what you just said.

 

[Red-Indian]

You may feel that way about religion in general but that tells me you also do not know or understand much about Muslims.

Our Prophet said "ILM HAASIL KARO CHAHEY CHEEN JANA PARAY"

For every brainwashed idiot twisted radical "non-muslim Muslim" I know 3-4 devout and hard working Muslims who have excelled professionally and academically (here in the US). Most masjids here in Colorado are spearheaded by engineers, doctors, professors, etc. I know hafiz-e-quran who are specialists in their fields.

If their closeness to religion is a standard we are using, the evidence I have seen personally negates your theory. Once again I live in the US so my experiences may differ from yours if you live in India or from someone who hangs out generally with the "raiwind crowd" type of tableeghis who have devoted everthing to tableegh and given up on the worldy matters.

Again, you build up your strawmen and argue against them. I do not deny that intelligent, educated people can be religious. I have several in my family who I respect who're doctors, lawyers and academics and are believers.

The issue as I see it is that is religion, a religious mindset and a religious state are not conducive to enquiry, questions and the yearning to solve the mysteries of the universe. They're more conducive to contentment, faith and trust that the chosen god will solve all problems.

I agree these are only theories but it's my explanation for why in various surveys conducted, between 67% to 93% of scientists self-identity as atheist or agnostic when only 7% to 14% of the world population identifies as such. I'd love to hear your theories on why.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Are we proving the existence of GOD in this thread???

IS THIS THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD???

I hope you guys can see and read because so far, it is clearly visible that you guys cannot.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

None of your claims are justified if you read @LordJames post. Not sure who is claiming here religion is scientifically prove. Or that it’s ok to insult any religion.
In fact anything you are the one who is making broad, generalizing and sweeping derogatory statements about Islam.

You guys love to talk about forced conversions and this and that and without any proof and then you algiys ask us proof of our faith and some
Of you have even questioned the the creator we believe in has almighty powers using pseudo scientific logic, and we are supposed to NOT take this as insult?

Just because some of your countrymen are pretending to be atheists?
If you want respect you gotta show respect. It doesn’t work the way the pseudo intellectual Hindus and you are behaving here about stereotyping Islam as a faith, Muslims as a community and presenting your alternative history as facts.

Suggest to stay on topic and debate, rather than spewing Modi logic all over the place.
Thanks

First of all, I am a Sikh. Sikhism was born out of the fight against oppression, tyranny, and subjugation. We’ve got 500 years of standing up against those who tried to suppress freedom and impose their beliefs on others. So if you’re coming at me with claims that Islam or any other ideology is somehow exempt from criticism or questioning, you’re barking up the wrong tree.
Sikhism’s history is full of resisting forced conversions and fighting for the right of people to believe what they want.
You talk about respect, but respect doesn’t mean blind submission.

Respect means having the guts to challenge ideas that harm or oppress. If anyone thinks their faith is above scrutiny, maybe they need to look a little closer at their own history. Forced conversions? Yeah, we’ve seen those firsthand—our gurus literally gave their lives fighting against that kind of injustice. So no, we don’t sit quietly while someone tries to twist the narrative.
You want respect? Earn it. Show that your faith can coexist with others without trying to impose itself.

 

[Stewie]

First of all, I am a Sikh. Sikhism was born out of the fight against oppression, tyranny, and subjugation. We’ve got 500 years of standing up against those who tried to suppress freedom and impose their beliefs on others. So if you’re coming at me with claims that Islam or any other ideology is somehow exempt from criticism or questioning, you’re barking up the wrong tree.
Sikhism’s history is full of resisting forced conversions and fighting for the right of people to believe what they want.
You talk about respect, but respect doesn’t mean blind submission.

Respect means having the guts to challenge ideas that harm or oppress. If anyone thinks their faith is above scrutiny, maybe they need to look a little closer at their own history. Forced conversions? Yeah, we’ve seen those firsthand—our gurus literally gave their lives fighting against that kind of injustice. So no, we don’t sit quietly while someone tries to twist the narrative.
You want respect? Earn it. Show that your faith can coexist with others without trying to impose itself.

What gave you the idea we need to earn the respect of prejudiced Indians, Hindus, Sikhs, atheists, or whatever they are? This is a Pakistani forum, not Indian. If you don't follow the debate respectfully, and with general courtesy that is extended to you guys, which by the way is not earned, its just a small matter of etiquette that comes from decent upbringing- you will either be shut up or reported. So this whining of yours is not going to help much.

If you guys did not get a decent upbringing from your parents, I feel sorry for you. Not sure if you were taught that everybody you deal with has to "earn" it first before you start behaving like a civilized human being with them or its just the brainwashed Indian training, I guess we will never know.

With that being said, your kind live with us in Pakistan and I have personally spent time in Nankana sahib. Try to get out more so you will know about Pakistanis and Muslims. Continue living in the hole you are currently in and you wont get anywhere.

 

[Champ_Pal]

1. Good, so first you climbed down from your demands for tool or picture evidence and admit that certain things cannot be proven by those means.
2. Creation is different to Creator

Do you get both points or do you want me to use fewer words?

Secondly, happy to engage with you provided you commit to:

a) Discussion and don't run away
b) Read
c) Respond to what is being discussed
d) Don't lie.

Give me your word and we will go from there...

You are saying I am running away? Pretty rich when you guys cannot even answer simple questions.

Whatever I posted, I back it up with links from authentic Islamic sources and science websites. I don't just ask and answer anything vaguely.

Now Lord James, do you believe there is a mountain of snow in the sky that God picks up and throws at evil people as hail storms? Be honest.

 

[anikrc1]

Again, you build up your strawmen and argue against them. I do not deny that intelligent, educated people can be religious. I have several in my family who I respect who're doctors, lawyers and academics and are believers.

The issue as I see it is that is religion, a religious mindset and a religious state are not conducive to enquiry, questions and the yearning to solve the mysteries of the universe. They're more conducive to contentment, faith and trust that the chosen god will solve all problems.

I agree these are only theories but it's my explanation for why in various surveys conducted, between 67% to 93% of scientists self-identity as atheist or agnostic when only 7% to 14% of the world population identifies as such. I'd love to hear your theories on why.

What pseudo scientific logic did I use? More generally what even is pseudo scientific logic?

 

[Red-Indian]

What pseudo scientific logic did I use? More generally what even is pseudo scientific logic?

Don't understand the context. Did you mean to quote me?

 

[anikrc1]

Don't understand the context. Did you mean to quote me?

Oh sorry. I wanted to quote @Stewie

 

[Bhaijaan]

Are we proving the existence of GOD in this thread???

IS THIS THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD???

I hope you guys can see and read because so far, it is clearly visible that you guys cannot.

The thread creator has himself exposed himself as someone who just wants to insult other religions and claim his to be the best.

When the foundation itself is wrong, nothing good can be built upon it.

Hence I chose to withdraw my participation from this discussion due to dubious intentions of the OP in respect my highest regards for my fellow posters and their faith.

Alvida, Bhaiyo.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

My prediction is China will defeat US in 50-70 years from now.

India does not have to go to war with Pakistan to defeat it. Pakistan is doing a great job of it by itself.

Lol... I give you the same 3-9 years bracket and you took 50-70 years lol...Anyway good escape...May be the next generations in PP may see you get exposed. Although you still didn't mention a war here.

Not your fault bro, it's not every one's cup of tea to rightly predict the unforeseeable in near future.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Lol... I give you the same 3-9 years bracket and you took 50-70 years lol...Anyway good escape...May be the next generations in PP may see you get exposed. Although you still didn't mention a war here.

Not your fault bro, it's not every one's cup of tea to rightly predict the unforeseeable in near future.

There is no immediate war threat between China and US. Hence my prediction of 60-70 years. I am not directly involved in the politics of US/China. Hence my time range was large.

Look how many people predicted the downfall of Soviet. All the way from 1920 to 1980. Perhaps they are all divine too

Predictions of the collapse of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Justcrazy]

The prediction says Romans will be vanquished again after certain number of years. Why is God guessing here? Shouldn't God say that they will be vanquished on this day, month and year? It looks like God is hedging his bets.

You have cleverly called it certain number of years. The actual verse says in 3 to 9 years. Why give such a long time range?


If an economist says that Tesla Stock will reach $1000 in the next 5 years and it comes out true, it does not mean that the economist is a genius.

I will give some credence if the prediction goes like this. In 2072 July 20th, a Super Power by the name United States of America will lose the battle to China. Now if it actually happens on that particular day and year, that will give it some credibility. If the Prediction says that in a few years America will fall and lets say that America actually falls after say 90 years, does it mean who ever made the prediction was divinely guided?
Come on man!

If an economist says Tesla 1000 dollars within 5 years , when the chances are very remote , and if it does happen , he will be hailed as a good economist.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

There is no immediate war threat between China and US. Hence my prediction of 60-70 years. I am not directly involved in the politics of US/China. Hence my time range was large.

Look how many people predicted the downfall of Soviet. All the way from 1920 to 1980. Perhaps they are all divine too

Predictions of the collapse of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Answer my question brother champ pal as this appears to be a red herring. Even the link you mentioned above doesn't contain any person who rightly predicted the timeline. Some even were wrong by suggesting it's end date as 1984.

Please brother answer my original Question in post 350 directly. Will wait for that. You can mention any other big powers too. Also remember what Quran predicted was entirely at odds with ground reality then so follow this trend too.

 

[Stewie]

Again, you build up your strawmen and argue against them. I do not deny that intelligent, educated people can be religious. I have several in my family who I respect who're doctors, lawyers and academics and are believers.

The issue as I see it is that is religion, a religious mindset and a religious state are not conducive to enquiry, questions and the yearning to solve the mysteries of the universe. They're more conducive to contentment, faith and trust that the chosen god will solve all problems.

I agree these are only theories but it's my explanation for why in various surveys conducted, between 67% to 93% of scientists self-identity as atheist or agnostic when only 7% to 14% of the world population identifies as such. I'd love to hear your theories on why.

Once again it’s just a play on words and you seem to think you are presenting a different view that what I am alleging you are proposing. But I don’t think I you are presenting anything different.

This is a largely subjective and pointless debate. I don’t think you will convince me and I won’t be able to convince you either.

You are extremely rigid in your view that religion cannot provide progress. I am still flexible as in both atheism and religion can produce the same results in terms of progress. It depends on the person.. and we are making vast generalizations here without any detailed study or evidence on these topics.

Personally I believe my time is wasted even discussing these topics here. It’s like entertaining a bunch of trolls, not saying you are one, but they do seem to love jumping into such debates with their own agenda to create discord.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

What gave you the idea we need to earn the respect of prejudiced Indians, Hindus, Sikhs, atheists, or whatever they are? This is a Pakistani forum, not Indian. If you don't follow the debate respectfully, and with general courtesy that is extended to you guys, which by the way is not earned, its just a small matter of etiquette that comes from decent upbringing- you will either be shut up or reported. So this whining of yours is not going to help much.

If you guys did not get a decent upbringing from your parents, I feel sorry for you. Not sure if you were taught that everybody you deal with has to "earn" it first before you start behaving like a civilized human being with them or its just the brainwashed Indian training, I guess we will never know.

With that being said, your kind live with us in Pakistan and I have personally spent time in Nankana sahib. Try to get out more so you will know about Pakistanis and Muslims. Continue living in the hole you are currently in and you wont get anywhere.

"Indian training".. our Sikh Gurus suffered at the hands of evil and tyranny and fought back valiantly. And people want to rewrite that by saying those were just "Allegations" and badly written history. This is utter and total disrespect of Sikh History.
We see how Pakistanis react when someone alleges/criticises about your religion.

 

[Red-Indian]

Once again it’s just a play on words and you seem to think you are presenting a different view that what I am alleging you are proposing. But I don’t think I you are presenting anything different.

This is a largely subjective and pointless debate. I don’t think you will convince me and I won’t be able to convince you either.

You are extremely rigid in your view that religion cannot provide progress. I am still flexible as in both atheism and religion can produce the same results in terms of progress. It depends on the person.. and we are making vast generalizations here without any detailed study or evidence on these topics.

Personally I believe my time is wasted even discussing these topics here. It’s like entertaining a bunch of trolls, not saying you are one, but they do seem to love jumping into such debates with their own agenda to create discord.

Fair enough of you don't want to discuss this stuff... it's a pity since you're one of the few relatively open minded religious folks on here.

On the matter of open-mindedness, I avoid making definitive statements but I, like most folks, make general conclusions based on the preponderance of evidence I see.

For example, can I produce evidence for every link in the chain of human evolution? No I obviously can't but given the fossil evidence and the way the hypothesis fits, I'm comfortable saying I'm not open-minded about intelligent design and I strongly oppose teaching it in schools.

Similarly, on the matter under discussion, I notice that
- Religion has historically tried to suppress science and scientific inquiry
- Atheists/agnostics seem disproportionately represented in the higher echelons of science
- Religious states and societies seem to produce little or no cutting-edge science

With all this evidence, I'm comfortable saying a secular environment is a much better petri dish for scientific advancement.

Why...is something I'm willing to open-minded about. My theory - I've put out there. I'm sure there are others - maybe religion and the religious tend to be a lot more ethical about poking their nose into the unexplained and therefore and more cautious and slow. Maybe there's more inimical explanations.

If I'm to be open-minded about whether religion and secularism are equally conducive to science and scientific advancement, I'd need to see a lot more real evidence than 'I know a lot of people who're brilliant scientists and ver religious.' There are some pretty wealthy religious nations now - what is the scientific output from them?

 

[Stewie]

"Indian training".. our Sikh Gurus suffered at the hands of evil and tyranny and fought back valiantly. And people want to rewrite that by saying those were just "Allegations" and badly written history. This is utter and total disrespect of Sikh History.
We see how Pakistanis react when someone alleges/criticises about your religion.

How is any of that related to this topic? You need to go open a separate thread.

Don’t try to bring your bitter attitude about perceived Pakistani disrespect towards your people here to derail the subject.

You Indians simply love to pivot, and drag your own bitterness about Pakistanis into every discussion. What’s the point of holding such debates if you guys won’t stick to a point?

 

[Stewie]

Fair enough of you don't want to discuss this stuff... it's a pity since you're one of the few relatively open minded religious folks on here.

On the matter of open-mindedness, I avoid making definitive statements but I, like most folks, make general conclusions based on the preponderance of evidence I see.

For example, can I produce evidence for every link in the chain of human evolution? No I obviously can't but given the fossil evidence and the way the hypothesis fits, I'm comfortable saying I'm not open-minded about intelligent design and I strongly oppose teaching it in schools.

Similarly, on the matter under discussion, I notice that
- Religion has historically tried to suppress science and scientific inquiry
- Atheists/agnostics seem disproportionately represented in the higher echelons of science
- Religious states and societies seem to produce little or no cutting-edge science

With all this evidence, I'm comfortable saying a secular environment is a much better petri dish for scientific advancement.

Why...is something I'm willing to open-minded about. My theory - I've put out there. I'm sure there are others - maybe religion and the religious tend to be a lot more ethical about poking their nose into the unexplained and therefore and more cautious and slow. Maybe there's more inimical explanations.

If I'm to be open-minded about whether religion and secularism are equally conducive to science and scientific advancement, I'd need to see a lot more real evidence than 'I know a lot of people who're brilliant scientists and ver religious.' There are some pretty wealthy religious nations now - what is the scientific output from them?

To be very honest, I am not a deeply religious person. I have been here a long time and my previous posts and record will show I have butted heads with extremely religious people here. I am not the pray five times a day type of guy. But I believe in God and I believe in the guidance we have.
I have defended liberal causes such as BLM/LGBTQ movements probably more than your average Pakistani here.

The reason I participate in these discussions is not to enforce my view, or to express my “religiousness” on others. Because quite honestly I am not religious.

I participate here because I feel the flexibility and openness of this forum is being taken for a ride by some Indian posters here, perhaps as a backlash for our opposition to the rising hindutva and anti-Muslim sentiment in India.

In the name of debate, I have seen some posters continue to attack just the idea of belief and God, try to portray our faith as some sort of a menace, and other such nonsense from the likes of other so-called “Hindu atheists” asking for proof of the existence of God, totally false and contorted claims about shariat, etc.

I don’t think most folks here have done a decent enough job to provide responses to such garbage. But now I get involved I realize that these people are just trolls and really we won’t achieve anything substantial by co tinting this charade. It will probably be best if their posts get reported or these people get ignored on the whole. They seem to have time on their hands and unfortunately I don’t have the luxury of wasting mine here.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Answer my question brother champ pal as this appears to be a red herring. Even the link you mentioned above doesn't contain any person who rightly predicted the timeline. Some even were wrong by suggesting it's end date as 1984.

Please brother answer my original Question in post 350 directly. Will wait for that. You can mention any other big powers too. Also remember what Quran predicted was entirely at odds with ground reality then so follow this trend too.

3 to 9 years is a fairly long time interval brother considering this is coming from an all knowing mighty God.

If God knows all future events, he should have told the exact date and time. Why is he trying to predict like humans do? It clearly shows this is written by people who were well aware of the political situation. Had the prediction gone wrong, they would have easily discarded it from the scriptures.

 

[Champ_Pal]

To be very honest, I am not a deeply religious person. I have been here a long time and my previous posts and record will show I have butted heads with extremely religious people here. I am not the pray five times a day type of guy. But I believe in God and I believe in the guidance we have.
I have defended liberal causes such as BLM/LGBTQ movements probably more than your average Pakistani here.

The reason I participate in these discussions is not to enforce my view, or to express my “religiousness” on others. Because quite honestly I am not religious.

I participate here because I feel the flexibility and openness of this forum is being taken for a ride by some Indian posters here, perhaps as a backlash for our opposition to the rising hindutva and anti-Muslim sentiment in India.

In the name of debate, I have seen some posters continue to attack just the idea of belief and God, try to portray our faith as some sort of a menace, and other such nonsense from the likes of other so-called “Hindu atheists” asking for proof of the existence of God, totally false and contorted claims about shariat, etc.

I don’t think most folks here have done a decent enough job to provide responses to such garbage. But now I get involved I realize that these people are just trolls and really we won’t achieve anything substantial by co tinting this charade. It will probably be best if their posts get reported or these people get ignored on the whole. They seem to have time on their hands and unfortunately I don’t have the luxury of wasting mine here.

You may be liberal as per Pakistani standards. In western standards, you are still very religious.

 

[Champ_Pal]

If an economist says Tesla 1000 dollars within 5 years , when the chances are very remote , and if it does happen , he will be hailed as a good economist.

If someone or entity makes poetry that a certain super power is going to collapse with in 10 years, it makes that entity a good military strategist.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Had the prediction gone wrong, they would have easily discarded it from the scriptures.

Yep brother Champ pal that's the main point and good thing is this is not the only future prediction in Quran
ALLAH (SWT) predicted the conquering of Makkah during the pact of Hudaybiyyah. And it came true within 2 years. Plz bro just give us a single prediction from your side too.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Yep brother Champ pal that's the main point and good thing is this is not the only future prediction in Quran
ALLAH (SWT) predicted the conquering of Makkah during the pact of Hudaybiyyah. And it came true within 2 years. Plz bro just give us a single prediction from your side too.

Why is it always within 2 years or 10 years? Why not the exact date and time?

This is like Doctors saying that the cancer patient is going to die with in the next 3 months or 6 months.

If God is all knowing, he would tell the exact date and time. Not giving a big window of time period. Any military general who understands the weaknesses or ground realities can tell that so and so city or town will fall in the next 3 years ot 5 years if the enemy is getting stronger and itching to conquer.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Please mention any such general with such 2-10 years predictions that never gone wrong. Plz for the sake of Atheism

Why is it always within 2 years or 10 years? Why not the exact date and time?

This is like Doctors saying that the cancer patient is going to die with in the next 3 months or 6 months.

If God is all knowing, he would tell the exact date and time. Not giving a big window of time period. Any military general who understands the weaknesses or ground realities can tell that so and so city or town will fall in the next 3 years ot 5 years if the enemy is getting stronger and itching to conquer.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Please mention any such general with such 2-10 years predictions that never gone wrong. Plz for the sake of Atheism

Just because I don't know does not mean it never happened.

How is it even a miracle if someone says that such and such city will fall in a certain period of time? Its only a miracle if the exact date and time are given. Not a big timeline.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Just because I don't know does not mean it never happened.

How is it even a miracle if someone says that such and such city will fall in a certain period of time? Its only a miracle if the exact date and time are given. Not a big timeline.

Fun fact brother champ pal check out this Hadith of Prophet PBUH:

Narrated Sahl bin Sa`d: On the day of Khaibar, Allah’s Messenger (PBUH) said, “Tomorrow I will give this flag to a man through whose hands Allah will give us victory. He loves Allah and His Apostle, and he is loved by Allah and His Apostle.” The people remained that night, wondering as to who would be given it. In the morning the people went to Allah’s Messenger (PBUH) and everyone of them was hopeful to receive it (i.e. the flag). The Prophet said, “Where is `Ali bin Abi Talib?” It was said, “He is suffering from eye trouble O Allah’s Apostle.” He said, “Send for him.” `Ali was brought and Allah’s Messenger (PBUH) spat in his eye and invoked good upon him. So `Ali was cured as if he never had any trouble. Then the Prophet (PBUH) gave him the flag. `Ali said “O Allah’s Messenger (PBUH)! I will fight with them till they become like us.” Allah’s Messenger (PBUH) said, “Proceed and do not hurry. When you enter their territory, call them to embrace Islam and inform them of Allah’s Rights which they should observe, for by Allah, even if a single man is led on the right path (of Islam) by Allah through you, then that will be better for you than the nice red camels. Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 3 – Hadith #4210
====

Almost less than a day margin, is it enough now Brother @Champ_Pal

 

[Stewie]

You may be liberal as per Pakistani standards. In western standards, you are still very religious.

I am not holding myself to western standards for the purpose of this conversation. The standard here is Pakistani standard.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Fun fact brother champ pal check out this Hadith of Prophet PBUH:

Narrated Sahl bin Sa`d: On the day of Khaibar, Allah’s Messenger (PBUH) said, “Tomorrow I will give this flag to a man through whose hands Allah will give us victory. He loves Allah and His Apostle, and he is loved by Allah and His Apostle.” The people remained that night, wondering as to who would be given it. In the morning the people went to Allah’s Messenger (PBUH) and everyone of them was hopeful to receive it (i.e. the flag). The Prophet said, “Where is `Ali bin Abi Talib?” It was said, “He is suffering from eye trouble O Allah’s Apostle.” He said, “Send for him.” `Ali was brought and Allah’s Messenger (PBUH) spat in his eye and invoked good upon him. So `Ali was cured as if he never had any trouble. Then the Prophet (PBUH) gave him the flag. `Ali said “O Allah’s Messenger (PBUH)! I will fight with them till they become like us.” Allah’s Messenger (PBUH) said, “Proceed and do not hurry. When you enter their territory, call them to embrace Islam and inform them of Allah’s Rights which they should observe, for by Allah, even if a single man is led on the right path (of Islam) by Allah through you, then that will be better for you than the nice red camels. Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 3 – Hadith #4210
====

Almost less than a day margin, is it enough now Brother @Champ_Pal

What was the reason for fighting the people of Khaibar? Because they are not Muslims.

Any army general when he is sending his troops will say, you will be victorious. He will not say, go fight and see what happens. I
f the opponent does not have a big army that can fight for several days, the victory can be achieved in a day or two. I am sure Holy Prophet knew how many opponent fighters were there and how long it takes to gain victory.

I don't see any thing great about it.

 

[Stewie]

The thread creator has himself exposed himself as someone who just wants to insult other religions and claim his to be the best.

When the foundation itself is wrong, nothing good can be built upon it.

Hence I chose to withdraw my participation from this discussion due to dubious intentions of the OP in respect my highest regards for my fellow posters and their faith.

Alvida, Bhaiyo.

I think you are better suited for threads about Hindutva. This discussion is a little beyond your scope.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

What was the reason for fighting the people of Khaibar? Because they are not Muslims.

Any army general when he is sending his troops will say, you will be victorious. He will not say, go fight and see what happens. I
f the opponent does not have a big army that can fight for several days, the victory can be achieved in a day or two. I am sure Holy Prophet knew how many opponent fighters were there and how long it takes to gain victory.

I don't see any thing great about it.

As usual you are changing goal posts now. No point of debating further then

 

[Bhaijaan]

I think you are better suited for threads about Hindutva. This discussion is a little beyond your scope.

Yes brother, in case you missed already submitted my exit from this thread due to dubious intentions of the thread creator. I am respectful of peoples beliefs and do not want to indulge in hurting religious sentiments.

For those who seek knowledge. I wish them well.

 

[Stewie]

Yes brother, in case you missed already submitted my exit from this thread due to dubious intentions of the thread creator. I am respectful of peoples beliefs and do not want to indulge in hurting religious sentiments.

For those who seek knowledge. I wish them well.

My view is not due to any alleged dubious intentions of the thread creator, it is due to my perception of your limited scope.. brother

 

[Champ_Pal]

As usual you are changing goal posts now. No point of debating further then

I did not change any Goal Posts.

If I know my opponent properly, I can send my men to finish off the opponent tomorrow itself. All I have to do is, select the best man to do the job.

I see nothing miraculous or divine in these army victories. There were many cases of improbable victories in sports all the time. That does not mean the team pulling off the victory is divinely guided.

 

[Bhaijaan]

My view is not due to any alleged dubious intentions of the thread creator, it is due to my perception of your limited scope.. brother

Brother if you feel so it’s ok.
I have no desire to prove myself to you. I wish you the best in seeking the truth.

 

[Stewie]

Brother if you feel so it’s ok.
I have no desire to prove myself to you. I wish you the best in seeking the truth.

Likewise, I really hope you see the light of day and embrace the one true God and his Prophet PBUH, and give us all the opportunity to welcome you in the circle of Islam as a true brother. Amen!

 

[Champ_Pal]

@baldeagle, Let me give you some examples of divine knowledge or miracles.

1)If someone who is not educated back in 7th century tells his people that all the diseases you are suffering from are caused by these tiny things called Bacteria and viruses. Here is a medicine or vaccine you have to take to protect yourself from these tiny microscopic organisms. Then the person who is either dying or suffering becomes alright and till today we should be using that medicine.

2) If someone gets a divine vehicle thousands of years ago that lets people travel from one place to a far away place in a matter of minutes or even hours and till today we will be using that vehicle and no one understands how that vehicle operates even with modern science.

3) If someone tells us that we are just a tiny spec of dust in the vastness of cosmos and Earth is just a planet orbiting its home star and the star is orbiting a galaxy and there are billions of galaxies in the universe. That will be amazing.

I can go on and on. Predicting victories by giving certain time periods is not a miracle. Even Alexander and Genghis Khan conquered most of the known world of their times. That does not make them divinely guided. They were just great conquerors of their time.