Dawah, Islamic Law, Punishments & Limits in Islam

[LordJames]

So in a Muslim country, if i as a non Muslim openly denounce Islam as a false religion, call for mosques to be destroyed in the name of my truer religion, call the Islamic prophet a fraud, start a campaign to convert Muslims to my religion by telling that my religion is the one true religion, openly wish for my religion to take over that country and the world one day.

How would I be dealt with as per Quran?

I am curious to know.

Very simple and common sense answer and nothing to do with Quran.

In any civil society, calling for destruction of properties is punishable and abusing any religion and its religious figures is punishable.

Surah Al-Hajj - 40 - Quran.com

الذين اخرجوا من ديارهم بغير حق الا ان يقولوا ربنا الله ولولا دفع الله الناس بعضهم ببعض لهدمت صوامع وبيع وصلوات ومساجد يذكر فيها اسم الله كثيرا ولينصرن...

quran.com

They are˺ those who have been expelled from their homes for no reason other than proclaiming: “Our Lord is Allah.” Had Allah not repelled ˹the aggression of˺ some people by means of others, destruction would have surely claimed monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which Allah’s Name is often mentioned. Allah will certainly help those who stand up for Him. Allah is truly All-Powerful, Almighty.

What would happen, if I start abusing Hindu gods in India and calling for temples to be destroyed and call Hindu deities and religious figures fraud? Would my actions be tolerated?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

So in a Muslim country, if i as a non Muslim openly denounce Islam as a false religion, call for mosques to be destroyed in the name of my truer religion, call the Islamic prophet false, start a campaign to convert Muslims to my religion by telling that my religion is the one true religion, openly wish for my religion to take over that country and the world one day.

How would I be dealt with as per Quran?

I am curious to know.

Certainly you would be educated first but if you still persisted with your agenda of destroying a community's place of worship then jail would be your obvious journey

 

[Bhaijaan]

Certainly you would be educated first but if you still persisted with your agenda of destroying a community's place of worship then jail would be your obvious journey

So it’s jail time?

That’s it?

Do u have your stamp of approval brother Jamie?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

So it’s jail time?

That’s it?

Do u have your stamp of approval brother Jamie?

Ok mate what treatment do you expect in any country including India after the actions you suggested above. Put yourself in others shoe and observe

 

[Red-Indian]

Ok mate what treatment do you expect in any country including India after the actions you suggested above. Put yourself in others shoe and observe

It's pretty common for Muslim and Christian preachers in India to preach that Hinduism is a false religion and that theirs is the only true one. I think that's fine personally. All religions should be able to say that about each other as long as they don't incite violence.

Hindu/Christian preachers should be allowed the same liberty in Pakistan. They should be allowed to preach that the Muslim prophet is a false prophet and people should convert to follow the true religion.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It's pretty common for Muslim and Christian preachers in India to preach that Hinduism is a false religion and that theirs is the only true one. I think that's fine personally. All religions should be able to say that about each other as long as they don't incite violence.

Hindu/Christian preachers should be allowed the same liberty in Pakistan. They should be allowed to preach that the Muslim prophet is a false prophet and people should convert to follow the true religion.

Then in truth you are preaching all should have the same religion. If India is happy for their religion to be called false then that is their business, but those are their values. If Islam preached the same values then there would be no need for it or a separate country based on those values.

 

[LordJames]

Ideological superiority of religion?

This is a pretty simple and straightforward point to understand.​

1. Muslims think of Islam as a superior religion and that’s why they are Muslims.​
2. Christians think of Christianity as a superior religion and that’s why they are Christians.​
3. Hindus think of Hinduism as a superior religion and that’s why they are Hindus.​
4. Sikhs think of Sikhism as a superior religion and that’s why they are Sikhs.​

It would be absolutely absurd for a person to believe in another religion to be superior but remain an adherent of their religion, that makes no sense.
​

In an Islamic Caliphate, non-Muslims will continue to practice their religion and regard their religion to be superior i.e. that’s why they are not Muslims! If they considered Islam to be superior, they would be Muslims. Non-Muslims obviously would not believe in Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) as a true Prophet otherwise they would believe in him.​

I mean are we really arguing this???

Force Conversion to Islam?

There is no such thing in Islam, in fact the command in the Qur’aan is the exact opposite that forced conversion are not permitted in Islam, see below:

https://quran.com/2:256
​

Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood.1 So whoever renounces false gods and believes in Allah has certainly grasped the firmest, unfailing hand-hold. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.​

What happens when Muslim win militarily?

As already stated in OP that when a Muslim army (militarily) takes over then residents of the area are given a few choices:
​

• Given Dawah and invited to Islam​
• Pay Jizyah: It is because the Islamic Government requires taxes and Muslims pay Zakat (religious obligation) and since Non-Muslims are not bound by Islamic regulations they are exempted to pay Islamic tax (Zakat) and instead required to pay Jizyah which is a separate fund (not spent on Muslims) but spent on protection and upkeep of Non-Muslim minorities​

If the state is unable to protect the Non-Muslims then their Jizya is returned to them because the state is unable to provide protection so tax is returned.

Jizyah | Definition & Facts

Jizyah, historically, a tax paid by certain non-Muslim minorities to rulers in Muslim states. Islamic law recognized Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians as ‘People of the Book’—i.e., people who possessed sacred texts—and they were allowed to practice their religion in exchange for payment of the...

www.britannica.com

If Muslim authorities were militarily unable to defend the dhimmīs in the event of an attack by an external aggressor, the former were required to return the jizyah to the latter. ʿUmar thus famously returned the jizyah he had collected from an Arab Christian tribe when he was unable to protect them from a military attack by the Byzantines.​

What if locals are unable to pay Jizya?

The poor, disabled and others are exempt in Islam from Jizya.

The state can also reach non-monetary agreements instead of Jizya as follows:

Jizyah | Definition & Facts

Jizyah, historically, a tax paid by certain non-Muslim minorities to rulers in Muslim states. Islamic law recognized Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians as ‘People of the Book’—i.e., people who possessed sacred texts—and they were allowed to practice their religion in exchange for payment of the...

www.britannica.com

under the second caliph, ʿUmar ibn al-Khaṭṭāb, the Jarājimah tribe was exempted when it agreed to serve in the army. The non-Muslim poor, the elderly, women, serfs, religious functionaries, and the mentally ill generally did not pay any taxes.​

What about “historical Accounts” of conversion and oppression?

Instead of arguing about historical records, lets hypothetically accept that some Muslims force converted non-Muslims then it is a violation of Islamic principles.

Even after acceptance of this possibility hypothetically, this scenario was not present in India on a mass scale because if Muslims were mass converting Hindus & Sikhs to Islam then there wouldn’t be any Hindus or Sikhs left in India but the fact remains that Hindus remained a majority during Muslim rule in India and remain a majority to this day.

Conversion now?

In America, Hispanics have the demographics with the fastest conversion to Islam so tell me who is forcing them to convert in America?

https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/more-hispanics-converting-to-islam/

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2020-07-02/numbers-of-us-latino-muslims-growing-rapidly#:~:text=Kanar%20and%20her%20siblings%20are,million%20of%20them%20are%20Latinos.

Here is the text from US Embassy in Italy and it reads:

https://it.usembassy.gov/muslim-americans-celebrate-ramadan/
​

Islam is the fastest growing religion in America. By 2050, the Muslim American population is expected to more than double, from 3.5 million today to 8.1 million. This increase would make Muslims the second-largest religious group in the United States. Latino Muslims are the fastest growing convert community in the United States.​

Tell me, who is forcing all these people to convert in America?

​

 

[Champ_Pal]

Hindus do not think Hinduism is superior religion. There are many ways to attain Moksha and many schools of thoughts. You can pray to any God you choose. Do not club Hinduism with Abrahamic religions.

@LordJames , come point by point. Your posts are too long and can never be answered.

 

[Stewie]

Hindus do not think Hinduism is superior religion. There are many ways to attain Moksha and many schools of thoughts. You can pray to any God you choose. Do not club Hinduism with Abrahamic religions.

@LordJames , come point by point. Your posts are too long and can never be answered.

You are correct, there is no comparison because Hinduism is not a religion its more of a philosophy like Buddhism.

Religions will always claim themselves to be righteous and true, claims that philosophies wont make

 

[Champ_Pal]

Homosexuality is abominable and forbidden in Islam via scriptural and textual sources.

Explanation:
​

• This is about action of homosexuality and not feelings because nobody is responsible for feelings, it’s the actions which matter.​
• If someone practices homosexuality they do not leave Islam or become Ex-Muslim but they are committing a “Major Sin” in Islam and there are many things classed as “Major Sin” e.g. fornication, adultery, cheating on your spouse (in a heterosexual relationship), engaged in usury based financial transactions etc​
• Islam doesn’t allow vigilantism and for people (Muslims or Non-Muslims) to go around lynching, beating, harming or killing homosexuals.​
• In Islamic Caliphate the actions of homosexuality would be tried in a Court and when convicted punishable (by death) in many cases.​
• In societies where Muslims are minorities, they will continue to express their views in a democratic manner against homosexuality.​

For Muslims:

No need for me to explain myself as there is plenty of evidence from Quraan and Hadeeth

For (Non-Muslims):

The sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman and proliferation of human race, upbringing of children in a human society is of paramount importance in Islam.

We can look at homosexuality through two ethical ways so let’s explore both foundationally:

Ontological Ethics (Immanuel Kant): The idea of something being categorically wrong e.g. lying will always be wrong no matter what society does and even if death resulted due to not lying.

Homosexuality is wrong according to Ontological principle because if everyone practiced homosexuality, human race won’t be able to procreate and populations will be in decline, this is called “Categorical imperative” and example of understanding would be suicide i.e. if everyone killed themselves then there will be so much killing that society will no longer exist!

Utilitarian (Jeremy Bantham): Free to do whatever you want as long as you don’t harm anyone. The idea is to go greatest good to the greatest number of people in the society.

The argument Muslims make is as follows:​

• How do you define that there is “no harm” being done to others? We have medical evidence which suggests that certain diseases are higher in homosexuals and due to it there is disproportionate burden on the medical system.​
• Even if you take the harm principle out, we have overwhelming data available which shows that children are disadvantaged being brought up in homosexual relationships.​

Don’t argue that Actor A or Celebrity B are in a homosexual relationship, present your point of views with facts and ethical underpinning.


This is a pretty simple argument to understand why Homosexuality is wrong but if you have problems reading, listen to it on YouTube

We are not talking about the ethics of homosexuality. The point is the punishments meted out to people who indulge in it.

I have posted the punishment for Homosexuals and Apostates. You have not responded to that.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

It's pretty common for Muslim and Christian preachers in India to preach that Hinduism is a false religion and that theirs is the only true one. I think that's fine personally. All religions should be able to say that about each other as long as they don't incite violence.

Hindu/Christian preachers should be allowed the same liberty in Pakistan. They should be allowed to preach that the Muslim prophet is a false prophet and people should convert to follow the true religion.

See post 89 for your answer.

 

[LordJames]

Hindus do not think Hinduism is superior religion. There are many ways to attain Moksha and many schools of thoughts. You can pray to any God you choose. Do not club Hinduism with Abrahamic religions.

@LordJames , come point by point. Your posts are too long and can never be answered.

Sure, lets argue from your perspective instead of hair splitting what you are proposing.

Hinduism is a superior ideology, superior code, superior ethics, however you want to put it and that's why someone is Hindu! If they believed in Christianity being superior then they would be Christians, simple common sense.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Sure, lets argue from your perspective instead of hair splitting what you are proposing.

Hinduism is a superior ideology, superior code, superior ethics, however you want to put it and that's why someone is Hindu! If they believed in Christianity being superior then they would be Christians, simple common sense.

Hinduism is not superior to any other religion. All religions are man made for controlling the masses and organizing the societies of that time. Every society has its social evils and no religion and culture is exclusive to it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Hindus do not think Hinduism is superior religion. There are many ways to attain Moksha and many schools of thoughts. You can pray to any God you choose. Do not club Hinduism with Abrahamic religions.

@LordJames , come point by point. Your posts are too long and can never be answered.

Perhaps one of the ways to achieve Moksha is to reject Hinduism and believe in Islam.

 

[Red-Indian]

Then in truth you are preaching all should have the same religion. If India is happy for their religion to be called false then that is their business, but those are their values. If Islam preached the same values then there would be no need for it or a separate country based on those values.

I'm just saying all religions/faith systems should be allowed to claim they're the superior ones and criticise all others. Give people the chance to listen and make a choice. This should be the case in both religious and secular countries. After all, what's a religion if it can't take criticism and continuously win the hearts and minds of people?

 

[Stewie]

We are not talking about the ethics of homosexuality. The point is the punishments meted out to people who indulge in it.

I have posted the punishment for Homosexuals and Apostates. You have not responded to that.

Homosexuality has been considered un-natural throughout the world and in almost all religions. Islam is no different. The punishments in Islam are also not much different from punishment in other religions. Islamic countries would just implement them more strictly than other societies and cultures who are starting to embrace homosexuality and all the various LGBTQ++ themes now. If a homosexual lives in such societies, he/she just has to abide by the law and not get caught in the open engaging in activities that are disallowed even for heterosexual people.

So, I don't see the ruckus and scandal about this whole deal.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I'm just saying all religions/faith systems should be allowed to claim they're the superior ones and criticise all others. Give people the chance to listen and make a choice. This should be the case in both religious and secular countries. After all, what's a religion if it can't take criticism and continuously win the hearts and minds of people?

There is a slight misconception here re Islam and criticism. The religion is regularly criticised and the Prophet PBUH is also not spared this. I think where the line is drawn is mockery and insults. In western countries it is commonplace to mock religious figures, in the east not so much.

 

[LordJames]

We are not talking about the ethics of homosexuality. The point is the punishments meted out to people who indulge in it.

I have posted the punishment for Homosexuals and Apostates. You have not responded to that.

The punishment fits the crime according to importance.

Indian law gives death penalty to someone found collaborating with Pakistan or leaking military secrets.

In Islamic Caliphate, Islam is the official religion so apostasy is rebelling against the state. I am asking you the second time to spend 22 minutes and actually try to understand the argument:

1. Nobody is asking you to convert
2. Nobody is asking you to agree
3. Nobody is seeking your "blessings" or your "approval"

Asking you to spend the time to understand the argument but you keep asking about something which has already been answered.

The punishment of Homosexuality not death in all cases is also tantamount to its impact on the destruction of the social fabric of the society.

Again, spend time in trying to understand what someone is saying, your questions are being answered in absolute detail and not to seek your approval but as a courtesy to open your mind.

 

[Stewie]

There is a slight misconception here re Islam and criticism. The religion is regularly criticised and the Prophet PBUH is also not spared this. I think where the line is drawn is mockery and insults. In western countries it is commonplace to mock religious figures, in the east not so much.

A very good point, but I also see @Red-Indian 's point that we have stopped differentiating between the two.

There have been instances in Pakistan where people, Muslims as well as non Muslims have been subjected to extreme harassment, arm twisting, torture, punishment, etc for at times simply wearing clothes with Arabic written on it, or using paper with Arabic written on it for something as simple as wrapping paper for snacks and pakoray, etc.

Such practices should be discouraged. The line should be drawn at insults and mockery, although I am sure the freedom of speech brigade will say it should be allowed as well.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Perhaps one of the ways to achieve Moksha is to reject Hinduism and believe in Islam.

I don't believe in any Moksha.

There is no concept of Mosksha concept in Islam. There is only heaven and hell.

 

[Stewie]

I don't believe in any Moksha.

There is no concept of Mosksha concept in Islam. There is only heaven and hell.

Well then you are more Muslim than you think.

 

[Champ_Pal]

The punishment fits the crime according to importance.

Indian law gives death penalty to someone found collaborating with Pakistan or leaking military secrets.

In Islamic Caliphate, Islam is the official religion so apostasy is rebelling against the state. I am asking you the second time to spend 22 minutes and actually try to understand the argument:

1. Nobody is asking you to convert
2. Nobody is asking you to agree
3. Nobody is seeking your "blessings" or your "approval"

Asking you to spend the time to understand the argument but you keep asking about something which has already been answered.

The punishment of Homosexuality not death in all cases is also tantamount to its impact on the destruction of the social fabric of the society.

Again, spend time in trying to understand what someone is saying, your questions are being answered in absolute detail and not to seek your approval but as a courtesy to open your mind.

You can be loyal to Caliphate as a citizen but reject Islam. But the Caliphate does not spare you just for your loyalty. It expects full faith in Islam, Allah, Prophet and Angels.
You can be loyal to India and do not follow any religion. No one bothers you. So your comparison is pointless.

I already posted what is the punishment for Apostasy from Islamic site. I don't have to hear what a random Hijab or Ali Dawah says about apostasy. They live in the west. So they cannot say it out loud in open about what exactly Islam says about Apostates and Atheists.

Doesn't Islam say that your religion is yours and mine is mine? So why give death sentence to people who leave Islam? Hazrat Abu Bakr fought a massive war and killed thousands because people were leaving Islam in droves after the death of the Prophet. Actions speak louder than words.

 

[LordJames]

Well then you are more Muslim than you think.

Lack of Moksha logically and rationally is an actual issue with Hindusim and not a virtue but its a separate topic, in this thread let them object to Islam.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Well then you are more Muslim than you think.

Not really. I don't believe there is any magical man in the sky controlling everything and every action you do and taking notes on your daily activities. I am far from being a Muslim. I would be one of the first ones to be taken out in a Caliphate if I live there.

 

[LordJames]

You can be loyal to Caliphate as a citizen but reject Islam. But the Caliphate does not spare you just for your loyalty. It expects full faith in Islam, Allah, Prophet and Angels.
You can be loyal to India and do not follow any religion. No one bothers you. So your comparison is pointless.

I already posted what is the punishment for Apostasy from Islamic site. I don't have to hear what a random Hijab or Ali Dawah says about apostasy. They live in the west. So they cannot say it out loud in open about what exactly Islam says about Apostates and Atheists.

Doesn't Islam say that your religion is yours and mine is mine? So why give death sentence to people who leave Islam? Hazrat Abu Bakr fought a massive war and killed thousands because people were leaving Islam in droves after the death of the Prophet. Actions speak louder than words.

1. You have not read
2. You have not listened

Did you miss the line in bold on the previous page???

The punishment for Apostasy in an Islamic Caliphate is death.

Read and realize that we are on the same page and then I will write further.

 

[Stewie]

Not really. I don't believe there is any magical man in the sky controlling everything and every action you do and taking notes on your daily activities. I am far from being a Muslim. I would be one of the first ones to be taken out in a Caliphate if I live there.

There is still hope for you if you come to the light side of the force. Don't run the other way. Embrace it.

 

[Red-Indian]

There is a slight misconception here re Islam and criticism. The religion is regularly criticised and the Prophet PBUH is also not spared this. I think where the line is drawn is mockery and insults. In western countries it is commonplace to mock religious figures, in the east not so much.

Fully agree and I do see that here on the forum as well where a lot of folks are willing to accept criticism, discuss and debate the religion. In practice though, in almost every Muslim majority nation, it's impossible to preach a competing religion and attempt to convert people to it.

I'm not comfortable with mockery on such emotionally impactful stuff either. Religious folks would have to be a lot more comfortable with themselves and their faith to be able to tolerate mockery of their beliefs and we're nowhere near that in the subcontinent yet.

As usual, education is probably the answer.

 

[Stewie]

1. You have not read
2. You have not listened

Did you miss the line in bold on the previous page???

The punishment for Apostasy in an Islamic Caliphate is death.

Read and realize that we are on the same page and then I will write further.

He does have that problem. Don't mind engaging him with long posts. He has a poor attention span.

 

[LordJames]

Not really. I don't believe there is any magical man in the sky controlling everything and every action you do and taking notes on your daily activities. I am far from being a Muslim. I would be one of the first ones to be taken out in a Caliphate if I live there.

1. Islam doesn't believe in a magical man
2. Islam has no problems you being a Hindu living in Islamic Caliphate

Your ancestors practiced Hinudism under Muslim rule and the fact that you are still a Hindu is PROOF that Islam has no problems with you being Hindu.

 

[Stewie]

Fully agree and I do see that here on the forum as well where a lot of folks are willing to accept criticism, discuss and debate the religion. In practice though, in almost every Muslim majority nation, it's impossible to preach a competing religion and attempt to convert people to it.

I'm not comfortable with mockery on such emotionally impactful stuff either. Religious folks would have to be a lot more comfortable with themselves and their faith to be able to tolerate mockery of their beliefs and we're nowhere near that in the subcontinent yet.

As usual, education is probably the answer.

It is a big problem like I said. Just recently there was this case of a lady wearing a fashionable kurta with Arabic writing and she was so put under so much pressure to apologize for it even though it was not even religious text. Even if it was, so what?

Some Pakistanis have made it an absolute mess of it, the loud and the violent ones

 

[Stewie]

1. Islam doesn't believe in a magical man
2. Islam has no problems you being a Hindu living in Islamic Caliphate

Your ancestors practiced Hinudism under Muslim rule and the fact that you are still a Hindu is PROOF that Islam has no problems with you being Hindu.

Waiting for him and others of his type to come back with claims of Hindu genocide, forced conversions, dwindling minority numbers in Pakistan, etc.

Same old song and dance!

But remember, small words and short sentences. That's how you get through to them.

 

[Champ_Pal]

1. You have not read
2. You have not listened

Did you miss the line in bold on the previous page???

The punishment for Apostasy in an Islamic Caliphate is death.

Read and realize that we are on the same page and then I will write further.

You did not get the point.

I can be loyal to the Caliphate and reject Islam. Will I be put to death? Do not conflate between religion and nation. In a Caliphate, they are pretty much the same. That is where the problem is.

 

[LordJames]

It is a big problem like I said. Just recently there was this case of a lady wearing a fashionable kurta with Arabic writing and she was so put under so much pressure to apologize for it even though it was not even religious text. Even if it was, so what?

Some Pakistanis have made it an absolute mess of it, the loud and the violent ones

Agreed.

That was stupid.

 

[Champ_Pal]

There is still hope for you if you come to the light side of the force. Don't run the other way. Embrace it.

There is hope for you too. Instead of wasting time on make believe stories which make no sense, embrace scientific thought and do not believe until shown the proof.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't believe in any Moksha.

There is no concept of Mosksha concept in Islam. There is only heaven and hell.

Yes but many Hindus do believe in Moksha so my point stands. There should be no problem believing a Muslim can achieve Moksha from a Hindu point of view if according to your own words there are many ways to achieve Moksha.

 

[Champ_Pal]

1. Islam doesn't believe in a magical man
2. Islam has no problems you being a Hindu living in Islamic Caliphate

Your ancestors practiced Hinudism under Muslim rule and the fact that you are still a Hindu is PROOF that Islam has no problems with you being Hindu.

Who is Allah then?
Mughal empire was not a caliphate. You cannot have a Caliphate when the overwhelming majority are non-believers. They had to put up with Hinduism as they are the ones that are going to pay taxes and serve in the army.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Not really. I don't believe there is any magical man in the sky controlling everything and every action you do and taking notes on your daily activities. I am far from being a Muslim. I would be one of the first ones to be taken out in a Caliphate if I live there.

Lol God is no man and never can't be

 

[Champ_Pal]

Yes but many Hindus do believe in Moksha so my point stands. There should be no problem believing a Muslim can achieve Moksha from a Hindu point of view if according to your own words there are many ways to achieve Moksha.

I am not a believer in any religion or cult. There is no evidence for Moksha and rebirth. So your point makes no sense for me.

 

[Red-Indian]

It is a big problem like I said. Just recently there was this case of a lady wearing a fashionable kurta with Arabic writing and she was so put under so much pressure to apologize for it even though it was not even religious text. Even if it was, so what?

Some Pakistanis have made it an absolute mess of it, the loud and the violent ones

Yeah I'm worried Hinduism is going the same way. Hindus used to be pretty tolerant of gentle ribbing and mockery on religion. The new militant Hindutva though is more 'woke' (I'm turning that word around) and easy to take offense. I'm fine with them drawing their red lines - say on cow slaughter and respectful words and depictions on their gods but the issue as we've seen on other threads is it's turning to mob violence and vigilantism.

 

[Stewie]

There is hope for you too. Instead of wasting time on make believe stories which make no sense, embrace scientific thought and do not believe until shown the proof.

I am a big believers in science. Unfortunately science does not always have all the answers. I have evolved to be a believer in both religion and science. Nobody says you cannot do both. sTRIKING the balance is tricky but it is the key. You can do so as well.

 

[LordJames]

Who is Allah then?
Mughal empire was not a caliphate. You cannot have a Caliphate when the overwhelming majority are non-believers. They had to put up with Hinduism as they are the ones that are going to pay taxes and serve in the army.

1. Allah is neither magical nor man

Please explain yourself and provide evidence if you think otherwise.

I will then move to point number 2.

 

[Champ_Pal]

I am a big believers in science. Unfortunately science does not always have all the answers. I have evolved to be a believer in both religion and science. Nobody says you cannot do both. sTRIKING the balance is tricky but it is the key. You can do so as well.

How can you have both?

One relies on evidence and the other demands blind faith from you. They both will always be at odds. You are deluding yourselves if you believe in both.

As an example....

The Quran verse 24:43 states, "Do you not realize that Allah drives the clouds, then joins them together, then turns them into a heap? Then you see the rain coming out from their midst. He sends down from the sky mountains (of clouds) having hail in them, then He afflicts with it whomsoever He wills and turns it away from whomsoever He wills".

Do you believe this is how rain and hail occur in the nature? Is this what your science textbook taught you in school?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Who is Allah then?

Read Surah Ikhlas please.

Surah Al-Ikhlas - 1-4 - Quran.com

Read and listen to Surah Al-Ikhlas. The Surah was revealed in Mecca, ordered 112 in the Quran. The Surah title means "The Sincerity" in English and co...

quran.com

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I am not a believer in any religion or cult. There is no evidence for Moksha and rebirth. So your point makes no sense for me.

You said:

"Hindus do not think Hinduism is superior religion. There are many ways to attain Moksha and many schools of thoughts. You can pray to any God you choose. Do not club Hinduism with Abrahamic religions."

If they are not your own beliefs, then consider my reply as concerning those who hold such beliefs - which you yourself posted.

 

[Champ_Pal]

1. Allah is neither magical nor man

Please explain yourself and provide evidence if you think otherwise.

I will then move to point number 2.

Quran refers to Allah as He. May be its a She or Gender neutral. That is not the point. Allah or God created the entire universe by saying Kun Faya Kun. And the universe came into existence. That is magic brotha.

 

[LordJames]

Evidence is provided by claimant:

This is a well known legal axiom that evidence is provided by the claimant. If you file a claim on my property then the courts require you to submit evidence to support your claim.

1. You can't file a claim
2. Then ask the other party to refute your claim.

Allah is a magical man​

Muslims are not claiming it so why would Muslims provide claim in support or opposition to it? Legally absurd to make this claim and then thrust it on Muslims to refute it.

 

[Stewie]

Yeah I'm worried Hinduism is going the same way. Hindus used to be pretty tolerant of gentle ribbing and mockery on religion. The new militant Hindutva though is more 'woke' (I'm turning that word around) and easy to take offense. I'm fine with them drawing their red lines - say on cow slaughter and respectful words and depictions on their gods but the issue as we've seen on other threads is it's turning to mob violence and vigilantism.

Believe it or not, I always admired and liked those qualities of Hinduism. While in Pakistan, I had experienced a lot of intolerance even as a Muslim due to either not praying the right way, or not speaking the right way or not fasting enough, etc, etc.
Then in the USA, as a young Pakistani student, I first got invited to a Hindu class mate's uncle's house and got fed parathey and other food at their table and learnt how respectful they were of me and my faith and did not expect anything in return but the same. As a Pakistani with zero prior exposure to Hindus, it was such a refreshing experience and the general sense of being cordial and friendly and it was overall a breath of fresh air. Years later, just recently, I witnessed some fresh off the boat Hindus engage in pretty intolerant practices towards Muslims. They seemed as judgmental as those people in Pakistan who looked at me funny because I folded my arms differently than they did whIle praying or did sajda a bit differently than they did.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

How can you have both?

One relies on evidence and the other demands blind faith from you. They both will always be at odds. You are deluding yourselves if you believe in both.

As an example....

The Quran verse 24:43 states, "Do you not realize that Allah drives the clouds, then joins them together, then turns them into a heap? Then you see the rain coming out from their midst. He sends down from the sky mountains (of clouds) having hail in them, then He afflicts with it whomsoever He wills and turns it away from whomsoever He wills".

Do you believe this is how rain and hail occur in the nature? Is this what your science textbook taught you in school?

Prove it wrong scientifically and many here may convert to your "religion of science"

 

[Champ_Pal]

Evidence is provided by claimant:

This is a well known legal axiom that evidence is provided by the claimant. If you file a claim on my property then the courts require you to submit evidence to support your claim.

1. You can't file a claim
2. Then ask the other party to refute your claim.

Allah is a magical man​

Muslims are not claiming it so why would Muslims provide claim in support or opposition to it? Legally absurd to make this claim and then thrust it on Muslims to refute it.

It is Islamic scriptures that make the claim that God made everything. So the burden of proof is on the religion and its believers. Not the one who is denying it.

If you say there is a pink flying elephant sitting next to me and I say no it is not, then the burden of proof is on you to prove to me that the Pink elephant indeed is sitting next to me.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Quran refers to Allah as He. May be its a She or Gender neutral. That is not the point. Allah or God created the entire universe by saying Kun Faya Kun. And the universe came into existence. That is magic brotha.

Do you know how babies are created? Imagine if the act of procreating made you feel nauseous instead of euphoric. There would be no babies and no mankind. That is also magic brutha.

 

[Stewie]

Quran refers to Allah as He. May be its a She or Gender neutral. That is not the point. Allah or God created the entire universe by saying Kun Faya Kun. And the universe came into existence. That is magic brotha.

What we cannot understand or fathom, of course we will label it as magic. Magic is something you cannot understand or have explanation for. It is not the trickery or slight of hand magic but actual magic the concept we are talking about here. From that standpoint I agree with you.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Prove it wrong scientifically and many here may convert to your "religion of science"

Rain

Hail

Are you ready to leave your religion?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Do you know how babies are created? Imagine if the act of procreating made you feel nauseous instead of euphoric. There would be no babies and no mankind. That is also magic brutha.

We all know how babies are made. No one is a kid. No one feels nauseous of the act. Anyone who feels so can consult a psychiatrist.

Anyways what has baby making got to do with how Universe is created?

 

[LordJames]

Quran refers to Allah as He. May be its a She or Gender neutral. That is not the point. Allah or God created the entire universe by saying Kun Faya Kun. And the universe came into existence. That is magic brotha.

Arabic Pronouns:

1. Fiha فيها (Feminine) in Arabic: https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...8cca0191a918ea30a1e9d57492f7e1cbed1cedf1.html

Surah An-Nahl - 10 - Quran.com

هو الذي انزل من السماء ماء لكم منه شراب ومنه شجر فيه تسيمون

quran.com

​

He is the One Who sends down rain from the sky, from which you drink and by which plants grow for your cattle to graze.

هُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَنزَلَ مِنَ ٱلسَّمَآءِ مَآءً۬‌ۖ لَّكُم مِّنۡهُ شَرَابٌ۬ وَمِنۡهُ شَجَرٌ۬ فِيهِ تُسِيمُونَ
​

The feminine pronoun is used in the Qur'an (due to grammatical construction) so by your logic, do you think "tree" is feminine?

You don't need to know Arabic, you need to open your eyes and match the letters and clearly see that a Feminine pronoun is used for tree.

I can give you a detailed explanation in Arabic as why it is used but for your superficial attention, just look at the structure.

 

[Champ_Pal]

What we cannot understand or fathom, of course we will label it as magic. Magic is something you cannot understand or have explanation for. It is not the trickery or slight of hand magic but actual magic the concept we are talking about here. From that standpoint I agree with you.

Thank you, You are seeing the light finally

 

[LordJames]

It is Islamic scriptures that make the claim that God made everything. So the burden of proof is on the religion and its believers. Not the one who is denying it.

If you say there is a pink flying elephant sitting next to me and I say no it is not, then the burden of proof is on you to prove to me that the Pink elephant indeed is sitting next to me.

God created everything.

This is my claim and willing to defend it scientifically.

Make your claim and then defend it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

We all know how babies are made. No one is a kid. No one feels nauseous of the act. Anyone who feels so can consult a psychiatrist.

Anyways what has baby making got to do with how Universe is created?

I think the point went over your head. Not sure if it is worth explaining further, might be beyond your moksha.

 

[LordJames]

Rain

Hail

Are you ready to leave your religion?

Simple answer in 8 Minutes:

 

[Stewie]

How can you have both?

One relies on evidence and the other demands blind faith from you. They both will always be at odds. You are deluding yourselves if you believe in both.

As an example....

The Quran verse 24:43 states, "Do you not realize that Allah drives the clouds, then joins them together, then turns them into a heap? Then you see the rain coming out from their midst. He sends down from the sky mountains (of clouds) having hail in them, then He afflicts with it whomsoever He wills and turns it away from whomsoever He wills".

Do you believe this is how rain and hail occur in the nature? Is this what your science textbook taught you in school?

As a man of science, if you heard of something called electricity being used to power out world, internet, space shuttles, in say 1700, would you believe it?
No, you would probably ask for evidence of it, right? But you have no evidence of it at the time. Does that make it impossible?

How did life originate? We have theories. But do we have hard evidence of how it happened? Does not mean there is no life.

There are things we understand and things we do not understand. We come up with our own theories with our limited understanding. I am getting to a point with my length of this post where I know I will lose you so I will stop here.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Arabic Pronouns:

1. Fiha فيها (Feminine) in Arabic: https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...8cca0191a918ea30a1e9d57492f7e1cbed1cedf1.html

Surah An-Nahl - 10 - Quran.com

هو الذي انزل من السماء ماء لكم منه شراب ومنه شجر فيه تسيمون

quran.com

​

He is the One Who sends down rain from the sky, from which you drink and by which plants grow for your cattle to graze.

هُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَنزَلَ مِنَ ٱلسَّمَآءِ مَآءً۬‌ۖ لَّكُم مِّنۡهُ شَرَابٌ۬ وَمِنۡهُ شَجَرٌ۬ فِيهِ تُسِيمُونَ
​

The feminine pronoun is used in the Qur'an (due to grammatical construction) so by your logic, do you think "tree" is feminine?

You don't need to know Arabic, you need to open your eyes and match the letters and clearly see that a Feminine pronoun is used for tree.

I can give you a detailed explanation in Arabic as why it is used but for your superficial attention, just look at the structure.

Don't get into the semantics of God's gender. No one cares. When there is no evidence of any God, the characteristics of God becomes pointless.

 

[Stewie]

Thank you, You are seeing the light finally

and I hope you will see it too whether you choose to stay an atheist or become a believer.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Simple answer in 8 Minutes:

Stop posting Hijab's videos.

Respond to how Rain and Hail are formed. Do you believe that a magical being is throwing hail down from sky or is it the explanation that is provided in the video?

 

[Champ_Pal]

and I hope you will see it too whether you choose to stay an atheist or become a believer.

Until shown credible proof that can be tested, everything is mumbo jumbo.

 

[LordJames]

Don't get into the semantics of God's gender. No one cares. When there is no evidence of any God, the characteristics of God becomes pointless.

1. You said that Allah is "HE" because Masculine pronoun is used.
2. I showed you Feminine pronoun for tree from the same Quran.

Question: Is Tree Feminine using your own logic from the same Qur'aan?

 

[Stewie]

Until shown credible proof that can be tested, everything is mumbo jumbo.

There is no evidence of the various theories on how life evolved or came into being on our planet. Does that make life mumbo jumbo as well?

 

[LordJames]

Stop posting Hijab's videos.

Respond to how Rain and Hail are formed. Do you believe that a magical being is throwing hail down from sky or is it the explanation that is provided in the video?

Video makes an argument about existence of God, go ahead and counter his argument

 

[LordJames]

Until shown credible proof that can be tested, everything is mumbo jumbo.

Please prove that you have Intelligence?

 

[Champ_Pal]

1. You said that Allah is "HE" because Masculine pronoun is used.
2. I showed you Feminine pronoun for tree from the same Quran.

Question: Is Tree Feminine using your own logic from the same Qur'aan?

You are doing massive straw man here. I don't care whether Allah is a He or She or none when there is no evidence of it.

When I say there is no pink elephant sitting on my shoulder, it does not matter whether its a he or she or none.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Good op & excellent information.

Hindus do not think Hinduism is superior religion. There are many ways to attain Moksha and many schools of thoughts. You can pray to any God you choose. Do not club Hinduism with Abrahamic religions.

@LordJames , come point by point. Your posts are too long and can never be answered.

But you’ve confirmed you’re an atheist . It’s best to allow Hindus to answer these .

 

[LordJames]

You are doing massive straw man here. I don't care whether Allah is a He or She or none when there is no evidence of it.

When I say there is no pink elephant sitting on my shoulder, it does not matter whether its a he or she or none.

You made a claim that Allah is "HE" because of a Masculine pronoun in the Qur'aan.

I have provided evidence of Feminine pronoun for "Tree"

So is Tree Feminine?

1. You did not say that you don't care if Allah is He or She
2. You said Allah is HE

Make a statement and then stand by it.

 

[Champ_Pal]

There is no evidence of the various theories on how life evolved or came into being on our planet. Does that make life mumbo jumbo as well?

We have fossil evidences of how life was thousands and millions of years ago. Science explains how everything evolved based on fossil evidence. Not by making up stories around campfire.

The only missing evidence is how life itself started about 1.5 billion years ago. Whether it came from outer space through asteroids or it formed on Earth. The research is going on. Hopefully we will find the answer in our life time.

 

[Champ_Pal]

You made a claim that Allah is "HE" because of a Masculine pronoun in the Qur'aan.

I have provided evidence of Feminine pronoun for "Tree"

So is Tree Feminine?

1. You did not say that you don't care if Allah is He or She
2. You said Allah is HE

Make a statement and then stand by it.

If Allah addresses himself as a He, who am I to say Allah is not a he?

 

[LordJames]

We have fossil evidences of how life was thousands and millions of years ago. Science explains how everything evolved based on fossil evidence. Not by making up stories around campfire.

The only missing evidence is how life itself started about 1.5 billion years ago. Whether it came from outer space through asteroids or it formed on Earth. The research is going on. Hopefully we will find the answer in our life time.

So you are claiming that inorganic matter transformed into organic matter.

What is your evidence? Give me an examples where inorganic matter can transform into organic matter?

 

[Stewie]

We have fossil evidences of how life was thousands and millions of years ago. Science explains how everything evolved based on fossil evidence. Not by making up stories around campfire.

The only missing evidence is how life itself started about 1.5 billion years ago. Whether it came from outer space through asteroids or it formed on Earth. The research is going on. Hopefully we will find the answer in our life time.

Right, but until such point can we claim that its mumbo jumbo or Hocus pocus? We cannot. Obviously we are all here.

In the absence of evidence, the scientific method does not exactly rule out the possibilities. We just believe it once we have evidence. It is foolish to otherwise completely rule anything out. Do you agree with that?

 

[deltexas]

So it also seems like you are stuck on your preconceived ideas despite people trying to explain to you otherwise.

There is no need to waste any further time. Thank you

You can follow the Taliban and we will discuss with reasonable people.

You say these are Talibani rules but a vast majority of it is interpreted as regular Islamic laws in Islamic countries . You can deny it all you want - it doesnt change the fact. And before you say x or y rule is there in Hinduism - man I dont know about every rule but if there is something thats wrong - its wrong period. Just bcos it was written in some ancient Hindu scripture - doesnt mean its gospel truth. And a country's laws should overrule all these religious idiosyncrasies and supersede them. Religion should never be the basis for laws

 

[LordJames]

If Allah addresses himself as a He, who am I to say Allah is not a he?

First Answer:

Allah states that Allah is not comparable to any creation (He or She or otherwise)

Surah Ash-Shuraa - 11 - Quran.com

˹He is˺ the Originator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you spouses from among yourselves, and ˹made˺ mates for cattle ˹as well˺—multiply...

quran.com

˹He is˺ the Originator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you spouses from among yourselves, and ˹made˺ mates for cattle ˹as well˺—multiplying you ˹both˺. There is nothing like Him, for He ˹alone˺ is the All-Hearing, All-Seeing.

Simple words which means Genders don't apply.

Second Answer:

According to your logic if the Masculine pronoun is used and Allah is Masculine THEN Feminine is used for Tree so using your logic, is Tree Feminine?

 

[Stewie]

So you are claiming that inorganic matter transformed into organic matter.

What is your evidence? Give me an examples where inorganic matter can transform into organic matter?

There is no evidence of how it truly happened and how life really came into being. We have explanations for evolution using fossilized evidence but those explanations and well established theories can also change in light of new evidence and research and that happens almost every day within the scientific community.

The scientific theory is all about rational explanation in light of evidence available. You cannot rule out the existence of God because you don't have evidence of Him "not existing" .. even if you don't have evidence of Him "existing". There are both possibilities. As a rational person of science, you have to believe in both possibilities. Atheism leads you to NOT BELIEVE in the existence of God but that does not mean atheism is science.

 

[Champ_Pal]

So you are claiming that inorganic matter transformed into organic matter.

What is your evidence? Give me an examples where inorganic matter can transform into organic matter?

The jury is still out on how life itself started. We may or may not find an answer for it in our life time. That does not mean that we believe in fairy tales of a magical power creating cow or dog or goat etc.

 

[deltexas]

I will note your tone and reaction when others speak of your religion like you have spoken about mine.

It will be an interesting comparison.

Every religion has some truly unacceptable things written in the texts and scriptures. If someone chooses to ignore it and believe blindly with any rationale - cant help it. Nobody in the Western countries follows the Bible to the T. They realize its just a book . And thats why they have legal laws and freedom of expression and thats how it should be. But if people want to ignore rationality - thats on them.

 

[LordJames]

The jury is still out on how life itself started. We may or may not find an answer for it in our life time. That does not mean that we believe in fairy tales of a magical power creating cow or dog or goat etc.

So you have no evidence to present that inorganic matter transformed into organic matter.

You have no evidence for your opinion

THEN

Why are you rejecting a Creator?