Do you believe in God?

[troodon]

Well If the shopkeeper claims to be Omnipotent, All Knowing, Most Merciful etc then shouldn't he already know what you want and already have the groceries delivered to your house to save you the trouble of even going to the store?

Also, if you go to a shop and just stand there staring, the shopkeeper will surely ask you if you have been helped already.

 

[DeadBall]

Also, if you go to a shop and just stand there staring, the shopkeeper will surely ask you if you have been helped already.

Well, it was a metaphor and should be taken SO literally. My point was if there was an entity that created everything why would he care what some random beings did on one of the trillions of planets he created, especially since he is (all superlatives). Sounds like a very human trait. Even I just as a human would not ask ants to worship, obey me just because I threw them a crumb.

 

[Pakistanian]

Well, it was a metaphor and should be taken SO literally. My point was if there was an entity that created everything why would he care what some random beings did on one of the trillions of planets he created, especially since he is (all superlatives). Sounds like a very human trait. Even I just as a human would not ask ants to worship, obey me just because I threw them a crumb.

What if that's what G-d wants? No matter how petty or irrational it seems but if that's what the orders then there's nothing we can do about it.

 

[Belawal2014]

What if that's what G-d wants? No matter how petty or irrational it seems but if that's what the orders then there's nothing we can do about it.

How do you know what god wants though? Has he spoken to you? Or has he held a billboard up in the sky just for you on your way home back from school?

 

[Hermoine Green]

It's all about faith and belief.

Yes, i do.

 

[yasir]

A need for a feeling of connection with something greater. Be that a Creator God, or the Universe. Or football.

That's the point, if ideas are only backed by emotion, there is something wrong with it, you need solid evidence to support those emotions, otherwise they can be misleading. That's why spiritualism like drugs can great good feelings but is dangerous if you are not carefully evaluate them by other means

 

[yasir]

The Quran makes claims and makes them with proof, a lot of which is now being corroborated by science. Take that as you like.

Not to drag the conversation into the validated of Quran and Islamic God, since you insist...

What are specific claims of God in Quran about himself? we can disprove them via evidence

While you are at Quran validity, can you provide your rebuttal to famous Arab Atheist, who happens to know a thing or two about Quran...

This video is about So called Scientific miracle in Quran, how good they are

I have not yet seen any serious rebuttal of issues Masked Arab pointed by Quran. Let's see what guys here have to say?

 

[troodon]

Well, it was a metaphor and should be taken SO literally. My point was if there was an entity that created everything why would he care what some random beings did on one of the trillions of planets he created, especially since he is (all superlatives). Sounds like a very human trait. Even I just as a human would not ask ants to worship, obey me just because I threw them a crumb.

God is human centric. As if we are the only thing of God's concern.

 

[ManFan]

Not to drag the conversation into the validated of Quran and Islamic God, since you insist...

What are specific claims of God in Quran about himself? we can disprove them via evidence

While you are at Quran validity, can you provide your rebuttal to famous Arab Atheist, who happens to know a thing or two about Quran...

This video is about So called Scientific miracle in Quran, how good they are

I have not yet seen any serious rebuttal of issues Masked Arab pointed by Quran. Let's see what guys here have to say?

Ex-Muslims such as VeeduVidz, Apostate Prophet, and atheists like RationalityRules and Genetically Modified Skeptic are also on Youtube.

As far as Masked Arab is concerned, there have been multiple videos published to refute him. There is an hour long video by EFDawah (haven’t seen it yet but heard it’s very well researched) that attempts to refute him also.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yes

I dont understand why atheists spend more time discussing God than those who actually believe in him , strange strange people.

 

[troodon]

Ex-Muslims such as VeeduVidz, Apostate Prophet, and atheists like RationalityRules and Genetically Modified Skeptic are also on Youtube.

As far as Masked Arab is concerned, there have been multiple videos published to refute him. There is an hour long video by EFDawah (haven’t seen it yet but heard it’s very well researched) that attempts to refute him also.

I have seen several videos of Veedu Vidz and Apostate Prophet.

I have also seen several videos of debates of Christian Prince versus several Muslim callers.

Very interesting videos.

 

[troodon]

Yes

I dont understand why atheists spend more time discussing God than those who actually believe in him , strange strange people.

Because we all live in a society where peoples lives are ruled by Religion. What we do, how we think are all severely influenced by religion.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Because we all live in a society where peoples lives are ruled by Religion. What we do, how we think are all severely influenced by religion.

In the UK religion has little bearing on anyone. Where do you live in the river ganges?

 

[ManFan]

Because we all live in a society where peoples lives are ruled by Religion. What we do, how we think are all severely influenced by religion.

Not so much in Western civilization like the States (swearing on the Bible is a tradition) or Scandinavia (almost all either atheist or agnostic).

 

[troodon]

Not so much in Western civilization like the States (swearing on the Bible is a tradition) or Scandinavia (almost all either atheist or agnostic).

Strictly talking about Subcontinent. Most act like Robots when it comes to religion.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Strictly talking about Subcontinent. Most act like Robots when it comes to religion.

Ok.

Please list how it influences you life.

 

[barah_admi]

Not to drag the conversation into the validated of Quran and Islamic God, since you insist...

What are specific claims of God in Quran about himself? we can disprove them via evidence

While you are at Quran validity, can you provide your rebuttal to famous Arab Atheist, who happens to know a thing or two about Quran...

This video is about So called Scientific miracle in Quran, how good they are

I have not yet seen any serious rebuttal of issues Masked Arab pointed by Quran. Let's see what guys here have to say?

Somebody already replied to you and told you multiple examples of people who have refuted this guy, whatever his name is.

I'll just say one thing, it takes 3 minutes for the video to make its first point, much of the first 3 minutes is spent ridiculing Zakir Naik, a personal attack rather then an academic argument. Then we get to the start of the analogy and this masked arab says "well, if I saw a new machine, I'd first try trial and error to see how it works" which is probably the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. No one with an ounce of intellect or logic would use "trial and error" to see how some thing works.

Why? Because there are several logical alternatives, one may be to ask someone who might be more familiar with the machine, another would be obviously to find some sort of manual OR the creator of the machine itself.

If the first 4 minutes contains this much idiocy, I'm not going to waste any more time.

 

[ChuckLee]

Religion is just something to give the weak minded a purpose and security.

Science has disproven Claims in the holy books and essentially rendered them mute.

Peace

 

[KingKhanWC]

Religion is just something to give the weak minded a purpose and security.

Science has disproven Claims in the holy books and essentially rendered them mute.

Peace

Examples?

Btw be clear and not confuse East and West Midlands again.

 

[Manager101]

God is human centric. As if we are the only thing of God's concern.

لَخَلۡقُ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ أَڪۡبَرُ مِنۡ خَلۡقِ ٱلنَّاسِ وَلَـٰكِنَّ أَڪۡثَرَ ٱلنَّاسِ لَا يَعۡلَمُونَ

The creation of the heavens and earth is greater than the creation of mankind, but most of the people do not know.

Quran: Surah Al-Mumin, Verse: 57

 

[ChuckLee]

Examples?

Btw be clear and not confuse East and West Midlands again.

You asking me for examples when there are vast amount of evidence and information avaialable online is a show of ignorance and a closed mind.

What do you mean confused about the Midlands?

 

[KingKhanWC]

You asking me for examples when there are vast amount of evidence and information avaialable online is a show of ignorance and a closed mind.

What do you mean confused about the Midlands?

Its no discussion if I look online, you made a claim just back it up for debate purposes. I have an open mind to you

NM

 

[troodon]

لَخَلۡقُ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ أَڪۡبَرُ مِنۡ خَلۡقِ ٱلنَّاسِ وَلَـٰكِنَّ أَڪۡثَرَ ٱلنَّاسِ لَا يَعۡلَمُونَ

The creation of the heavens and earth is greater than the creation of mankind, but most of the people do not know.

Quran: Surah Al-Mumin, Verse: 57

The statement above itself is human centric.

The creation of Heavens and Earth shows that God created Heaven(whatever it means) and Earth. There are trillions of Planets in this universe. Our Earth is just one among them.

Why would God only care about this one planet is beyond me.

 

[yasir]

Yes

I dont understand why atheists spend more time discussing God than those who actually believe in him , strange strange people.

Same reason why educated people spend so much time trying to eradicate illetracy... Ridiculing illiteracy (rather than making it holly or protecting it) has worked, similarly religion/dogma/superstition needs to be ridicule rather than protected by state and culture...

Same reason Why anti-racist, spend so much time going against racism...

Religion and Dogma creeps into Politics, policy and culture of the society, that you have to fight against not such sit back and assume it will go away... Not to mention right now in most cultures, religion is strongly protected by state, there is no free speech

What I want to know what mental magic is done by Faithful to believe in Science and God at the same time... Either medicine cure you or God's blessing...If medicine is going to cure you, there has to be method and reason behind it, it has to be working regardless of weather you pray or not...If medicine works sometimes and others, that does not mean God is playing tricks but rather we need to improve the medicine and make it more reliable, we don't understand it properly yet. On top of that believing in God does not help, rather impede the process, because Scientific process is all about focusing on evidence, improving method of gather it and building upon it. God or religion has no role in this process...

You can apply above metaphors to many aspects of social, political and policy matters as well...

 

[yasir]

Ex-Muslims such as VeeduVidz, Apostate Prophet, and atheists like RationalityRules and Genetically Modified Skeptic are also on Youtube.

As far as Masked Arab is concerned, there have been multiple videos published to refute him. There is an hour long video by EFDawah (haven’t seen it yet but heard it’s very well researched) that attempts to refute him also.

Somebody already replied to you and told you multiple examples of people who have refuted this guy, whatever his name is.

I'll just say one thing, it takes 3 minutes for the video to make its first point, much of the first 3 minutes is spent ridiculing Zakir Naik, a personal attack rather then an academic argument. Then we get to the start of the analogy and this masked arab says "well, if I saw a new machine, I'd first try trial and error to see how it works" which is probably the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. No one with an ounce of intellect or logic would use "trial and error" to see how some thing works.

Why? Because there are several logical alternatives, one may be to ask someone who might be more familiar with the machine, another would be obviously to find some sort of manual OR the creator of the machine itself.

If the first 4 minutes contains this much idiocy, I'm not going to waste any more time.

Can you share what specifically has been refuted, specially when it comes to Science in Quran ??

More importantly I would like to know what has been prove materially about the existence of God in last 1400 or however long??

 

[KingKhanWC]

Same reason why educated people spend so much time trying to eradicate illetracy... Ridiculing illiteracy (rather than making it holly or protecting it) has worked, similarly religion/dogma/superstition needs to be ridicule rather than protected by state and culture...

Same reason Why anti-racist, spend so much time going against racism...

Religion and Dogma creeps into Politics, policy and culture of the society, that you have to fight against not such sit back and assume it will go away... Not to mention right now in most cultures, religion is strongly protected by state, there is no free speech

What I want to know what mental magic is done by Faithful to believe in Science and God at the same time... Either medicine cure you or God's blessing...If medicine is going to cure you, there has to be method and reason behind it, it has to be working regardless of weather you pray or not...If medicine works sometimes and others, that does not mean God is playing tricks but rather we need to improve the medicine and make it more reliable, we don't understand it properly yet. On top of that believing in God does not help, rather impede the process, because Scientific process is all about focusing on evidence, improving method of gather it and building upon it. God or religion has no role in this process...

You can apply above metaphors to many aspects of social, political and policy matters as well...

Pretty lame excuse for your obsession. You live in Australia if im not mistaken? Just like myself who lives in the UK, religion has little impact on our lives as the state doesn't use religion for it's policies.

The majority of the planet believe in some sort of religion, athiests are just wasting their time for two reasons, firstly people will not change if their faith is strong and secondly the reasoning militant athiests bring up is pretty poor.

Write me one sentence you think could make me question my religion? Shouldnt be difficult if religion is so silly.

 

[troodon]

Pretty lame excuse for your obsession. You live in Australia if im not mistaken? Just like myself who lives in the UK, religion has little impact on our lives as the state doesn't use religion for it's policies.

The majority of the planet believe in some sort of religion, athiests are just wasting their time for two reasons, firstly people will not change if their faith is strong and secondly the reasoning militant athiests bring up is pretty poor.

Write me one sentence you think could make me question my religion? Shouldn't be difficult if religion is so silly.

Religion is silly. The holy Texts are comic books for Grownups.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Religion is silly. The holy Texts are comic books for Grownups.

You saying it doesn't make it true. I feel believing everything came out nowhere and by chance is very silly. We all have our opinions.

 

[troodon]

You saying it doesn't make it true. I feel believing everything came out nowhere and by chance is very silly. We all have our opinions.

Universe is 13.7 Billion years old.

Earth is only 4.5 Billion years old.

Homo sapiens are less than 200,000 years old.

If God exists, why did it take God so many billions of years to create humans? Abrahamic faiths say that God created Earth and Heavens and creates Adam and eve soon. If this is what religious books from God explain the origin of universe and life, then it is something a 5 year old can make up.

It does not make any sense. Where does the dinosaurs and all of the extinct prehistoric animals fit in the picture that Islam or Christianity claims about the origin of Universe and life?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Universe is 13.7 Billion years old.

Earth is only 4.5 Billion years old.

Homo sapiens are less than 200,000 years old.

If God exists, why did it take God so many billions of years to create humans? Abrahamic faiths say that God created Earth and Heavens and creates Adam and eve soon. If this is what religious books from God explain the origin of universe and life, then it is something a 5 year old can make up.

It does not make any sense. Where does the dinosaurs and all of the extinct prehistoric animals fit in the picture that Islam or Christianity claims about the origin of Universe and life?

Time and Space is not relevant to the Creator. The Earth was created and humans were created and put on the Earth. This doesn't mean it took the Creator billions of years to create humans, this is a 2 year olds argument.

Dinasours were extinct before man became present on Earth. Islam does not deny the existnance of dinasours.

 

[DeadBall]

Time and Space is not relevant to the Creator. The Earth was created and humans were created and put on the Earth. This doesn't mean it took the Creator billions of years to create humans, this is a 2 year olds argument.

Dinasours were extinct before man became present on Earth. Islam does not deny the existnance of dinasours.

Is there any text about the existence of dinosaurs in the Quran, Ahadeeth etc? It is very easy to claim to not deny something one has no idea about. If dinosaurs roamed the Earth for millions of years I think they deserved at least one verse in there somewhere. Especially since there are hundreds of repetitive verses in there.

 

[Manager101]

The statement above itself is human centric.

The creation of Heavens and Earth shows that God created Heaven(whatever it means) and Earth. There are trillions of Planets in this universe. Our Earth is just one among them.

Why would God only care about this one planet is beyond me.

In Arabic the word Samavat is described as Heavens which also means entire Universe.

Don't confuse it with "heaven" or Janat which has a different Arabic word.

Secondly, Quran explains that all matter in this Universe has specified term even Sun and Stars, which means every matter of this universe is temporary.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

I usually don't join such discussions because NO ONE is going to convince anyone on Pakpassion about their beliefs and get someone else to convert.

It is impossible and a couple of lines typed here and there will NOT convince any atheist to become a believer or a believer to revert to atheism.

But for people who are caught in a limbo and are struggling and might be Muslims but their hearts are becoming rusty I would love to pen down some verses from the glorious Quran which make my heart full of gratitude for being a Muslim.

If you are a non-Muslim and an atheist , you are welcome to read them and refute them for my idea is not to convince you guys to give up your thinking.

If you are a Muslim perhaps your faith will get stronger when you hear the verses.



1. I'll start with Sura Baqarah because it is the most beautiful of all in my opinion.

Sura Baqarah ( 2:2 )

"This is a book about which there is no doubt; guidance for those who are conscious of Allah"

During my early days of studying religion, I used to laugh at those who believed because I was under the impression that those with long beards and studying faith are wasting their time reading the Quran. But now I believe Allah says in the very first verses that it is only for those who are conscious of Allah. Meaning everyone will NOT BENEFIT ....

I see loads of people saying we have read the Quran but we find no real substance and it is just a book of poetry. And they are right, for Allah is clearly saying not everyone is going to benefit

2. So who will benefit? This is answered in the next verse

"Those who believe in the unseen " (2:3)

I think this is very important for everyone to understand. Only those people are ever gonna benefit from Quran and the religion Islam are those who are willing to believe in the UNSEEN.

I see many people saying where is the proof or factual evidence of Quran being authentic and existence of Allah. That's just it.

There is NO PROOF.

You have to believe in the unseen. It is a major part of our faith. If you choose to ignore and it and keep searching for proof, you will NEVER FIND IT.

But we must accept it and why should we? Because if you asked in times before Galileo or for that matter in 600 AD, the earth is flat, people asked for proof then. There was no proof. The people kept BELIEVING the earth was flat, till someone came along and PROVED THAT IT WAS round.

So thousands of people died, believing that the earth was flat before 1500 AD and kept believing that if you walk far enough, you will fall off the earth.

Thousands of people died ignorant.

Same is with Islam.

Thousands of people will want proof that God will exist. But it will never happen till the Day of Judgment as we believe. (equivalent to something as discovering the Earth is round after all).

Thousands will die without believing in Allah.

But then it's too late. (just like thousands died believing in flatness of earth).


3. And Allah's wisdom is beyond comprehension.


He says in Sura Baqarah (2:6) "Those who disbelieve it is the same for them whether you warn them or not, they WILL NOT BELIEVE".

This is a brilliant rebuttal by Allah and he knows the human nature. He has already said that for those who will do not believe in the UNSEEN AND WANT PROOF. It is the same for them, whether you warn them or not. They would not believe.

Already we see so many Muslims trying to warn atheists and non-Muslims. But is going to be futile because Allah knows so.


4. Sura Baqarah (2:7) "Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing"

And why will they NOT BELIEVE ?

Because of their persistence in not believing, their stubbornness in not accepting blindly the faith, Allah has set their hearts even further from truth.

So when they hear such things, they become even mockful and indignant that this is all faslehood.

Even if they see something, they believe its no proof of Allah. Their hearts are already sealed.

And whatever is told to them, they will not see or understand because they are not meant to.

This is why it is TOLD TO MUSLIMS TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS REGULARLY FROM ALLAH lest he SEAL OUR HEARTS AND MAKE US LIKE THEM.


These are some excerpts I think which define the fact who will understand our religion.

5. Interestingly,

I think from a Muslim standpoint this world is nothing but a diversion and amusement


Sura Hadid 57 :20

"And what is this worldly life except the enjoyment of delusion"


Don't get me wrong.

We should strive for perfection in this world, we should excel in this world.

If I am a doctor, it would be petty to sit on the prayer mat all day and forget about my patients because the life of this world is a delusion.

No.

What is meant is, this life is nothing but amusement, diversion and a mere delusion for believers.

There is AFTERLIFE FOR US.

Means that all our actions should be in accordance to wishes of Allah, because this life is nothing but a delusion.

It's like someone comes for an afternoon, resides in the shade, and gets up and walks away.

The day someone understands this, he will direct all his energies to meeting the creator.

And indeed the meeting will come.

And I'll beg leave of everyone with the following final point.


6. Allah says in the Holy Quran (3:24-25)

That is because they were saying "Never will the fire touch us except for a few numbered days" and because they were deluded by the religion they were inventing.


So how will it be , when we assemble them for a day when there is no doubt? And each soul will be compensated for what it earned, and they will not be wronged?


I ended here, because I am sure there are many people who believe that the fire will not even touch them, because the Quran is nothing but a story. To refute that even better there is another Surah.

It is said in Sura Mutaffafin 83 : 10

"Woe to the deniers" (Allah has actually cursed those who deny)

Deny what?

"The Day of Recompense (83:11)

"And none deny except the most sinful transgressor" (83:12)

When our verses are recited to them they say "Legends of former peoples" (83:13)


And then ending on the note, that how will it be when we assemble them for a day of which there is no doubt.

If you still doubt it, after all the evidences (not for atheists or non-Muslims) then please believe.

Because our belief in the unseen, will take us to salvation.

That's all I have to say.

I wish everyone sucess in their decisions and life.

 

[Robert]

You saying it doesn't make it true. I feel believing everything came out nowhere and by chance is very silly. We all have our opinions.

The maths is on the side of that, though.

 

[ManFan]

The maths is on the side of that, though.

Oxford mathematical physicist Roger Penrose’s answer:

“1 part in 10 to the power of 10 to the power or 123, that is 1 followed by 10 to the 123rd power zeroes”.

 

[troodon]

In Arabic the word Samavat is described as Heavens which also means entire Universe.

Don't confuse it with "heaven" or Janat which has a different Arabic word.

Secondly, Quran explains that all matter in this Universe has specified term even Sun and Stars, which means every matter of this universe is temporary.

What has this got to do with anything I said?

Even Hindu scriptures say that nothing is permanent. That does not make them true.

Let me ask you . When did God create Humans? Immediately after creating Earth and Heavens?

Also, if Quran said God created Earth and heavens, did he create them simultaneously? Because science clearly says there is almost 8 Billion years gap between the origin of universe and origin of earth.

 

[Manager101]

What has this got to do with anything I said?

Even Hindu scriptures say that nothing is permanent. That does not make them true.

Let me ask you . When did God create Humans? Immediately after creating Earth and Heavens?

Also, if Quran said God created Earth and heavens, did he create them simultaneously? Because science clearly says there is almost 8 Billion years gap between the origin of universe and origin of earth.

Since you have been saying God is human centric that's why I explained about how Quran tells us about temporary nature of Universe and it's matter. Secondly as previously quoted in the verse of Quran "Creation of Heavens (universe) and earth is greater then creation of mankind" which shows us that Allah is emphasizing high importance to Universe.

Your question about any religion been true or not, it's a different thing. You will have to do comparison of all Religion and then decide. As Quran says in Surah Al-Kafirun "There is no compulsion in Religion".

One advice, Religion will only explain you the key points, we Human beings have to use them to discover and decide our faith.

 

[Robert]

Oxford mathematical physicist Roger Penrose’s answer:

“1 part in 10 to the power of 10 to the power or 123, that is 1 followed by 10 to the 123rd power zeroes”.

Answer to what question, specifically?

 

[ManFan]

Answer to what question, specifically?

The possibility of the universe being derived from nothing.

 

[Robert]

The possibility of the universe being derived from nothing.

Doesn't sound right. Are yoiu sure that was what Penrose said?

 

[ManFan]

Doesn't sound right. Are yoiu sure that was what Penrose said?[/QUOTE

It’s in the essay, “Is There a God (What is the Chance the World is the Result of Chance?)”.

In it, John Lennox, Professor of Mathematics at Oxford, quotes Roger Penrose.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Is there any text about the existence of dinosaurs in the Quran, Ahadeeth etc? It is very easy to claim to not deny something one has no idea about. If dinosaurs roamed the Earth for millions of years I think they deserved at least one verse in there somewhere. Especially since there are hundreds of repetitive verses in there.

It doesn't matter what you think. It doesn't deny the existence of such creatures and for anyone to suggest it should is their own personal issue not something Muslims care about too much.

 

[Robert]

It’s in the essay, “Is There a God (What is the Chance the World is the Result of Chance?)”.

In it, John Lennox, Professor of Mathematics at Oxford, quotes Roger Penrose.

Hmm, that’s at odds with what Hawking said on a cosmological level, and what Dawkins said about evolution.

 

[ManFan]

Hmm, that’s at odds with what Hawking said on a cosmological level, and what Dawkins said about evolution.

Who knows?

Maybe it is or it is not. However, it is the opinion of an expert.

The great thing about science is that it is never certain (although almost comprehensive) and ever-improving.

 

[yasir]

It’s in the essay, “Is There a God (What is the Chance the World is the Result of Chance?)”.

In it, John Lennox, Professor of Mathematics at Oxford, quotes Roger Penrose.

You and all faithfuls are missing the big picture...God itself(him or her or it, whatever you want to call), is a "Huge Magical/Random Chance", if God can be created out of nowhere, why Cann't universe/multi-vers and everything else??

 

[yasir]

Pretty lame excuse for your obsession. You live in Australia if im not mistaken? Just like myself who lives in the UK, religion has little impact on our lives as the state doesn't use religion for it's policies.

The majority of the planet believe in some sort of religion, athiests are just wasting their time for two reasons, firstly people will not change if their faith is strong and secondly the reasoning militant athiests bring up is pretty poor.

Write me one sentence you think could make me question my religion? Shouldnt be difficult if religion is so silly.

Who Created God??

If God can be created by some magically process(which nobody has defined thus far, in thousands of years of religious history in any compelling way), why we cannot have multi-verses and or particles created by chance? - Story from there on in Science is progression from simple to complex, means first we had sub-atomic particles before atomic particles, then atoms, molecules and organic chemistry before we reach replicating molecules...In nature we had yet to discover, complex things first before the simple ones...God is the most complex thing in all realms or existence, he must be made of some stuff/blog(like we have mass and matter), how he become an intelligent being?? Through what process, in what env?? - Be specific about response, no spiritual mambo jambo


And Science has not closed the chapter of "Origin of Things", this is still one of the most important question in all Sciences, there is a reason we spend 10s of billions to build LHC, the most complex machine ever created by our species...Whole idea to create a tiny fraction of singularities such as Big Bang to discover more secrets of Cosmos....


Its not like God or Allah of Quran does not like to reason on reality or Science. First Argument Muhammad had about God was a Scientific one, that there is only one God, he tried to give Scientific and logical reasons as to why many Gods does not make sense compare to one God, based on the primitive knowledge at that time...But like Kings of that time, whenever he did not had answers, he ends with "God knows best, don't question his wisdom"... This argument of One Vs Many Gods was main bone of contention for early Islam, its not some spiritual(I don't know what the means) argument but a physical or scientific one


BTW: I live in US, not that it matters for what we are arguing about...

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Who Created God??

If God can be created by some magically process(which nobody has defined thus far, in thousands of years of religious history in any compelling way), why we cannot have multi-verses and or particles created by chance? - Story from there on in Science is progression from simple to complex, means first we had sub-atomic particles before atomic particles, then atoms, molecules and organic chemistry before we reach replicating molecules...In nature we had yet to discover, complex things first before the simple ones...God is the most complex thing in all realms or existence, he must be made of some stuff/blog(like we have mass and matter), how he become an intelligent being?? Through what process, in what env?? - Be specific about response, no spiritual mambo jambo


And Science has not closed the chapter of "Origin of Things", this is still one of the most important question in all Sciences, there is a reason we spend 10s of billions to build LHC, the most complex machine ever created by our species...Whole idea to create a tiny fraction of singularities such as Big Bang to discover more secrets of Cosmos....


Its not like God or Allah of Quran does not like to reason on reality or Science. First Argument Muhammad had about God was a Scientific one, that there is only one God, he tried to give Scientific and logical reasons as to why many Gods does not make sense compare to one God, based on the primitive knowledge at that time...But like Kings of that time, whenever he did not had answers, he ends with "God knows best, don't question his wisdom"... This argument of One Vs Many Gods was main bone of contention for early Islam, its not some spiritual(I don't know what the means) argument but a physical or scientific one


BTW: I live in US, not that it matters for what we are arguing about...

The thing is Allah, God or Jehovah at least from an Islamic point of view is based on blind faith.

Even Quran is for those who "believe in the unseen".

If you don't believe in the unseen, it's not likely you will ever believe in God.

The good news for Muslims is he exists.

The bad news for you is, eventually, you will find out he exists.

 

[ManFan]

You and all faithfuls are missing the big picture...God itself(him or her or it, whatever you want to call), is a "Huge Magical/Random Chance", if God can be created out of nowhere, why Cann't universe/multi-vers and everything else??

The point was that the probability of the universe not being designed (coming into existence on its own) is slim, almost nonsensically so.

 

[yasir]

The point was that the probability of the universe not being designed (coming into existence on its own) is slim, almost nonsensically so.

How come probability of God (Who is most complex being and yet came on his own ) existence is higher than Probability of Uni or Multi verse?? - Probability of Zero/nothing to God is much slimmer than universe from nothing

 

[ManFan]

How come probability of God (Who is most complex being and yet came on his own ) existence is higher than Probability of Uni or Multi verse?? - Probability of Zero/nothing to God is much slimmer than universe from nothing

Except the underlying question surrounding this thread and my post was, who created the universe? God or nothing?

There is no equation that can measure the probability of God because it is not something definable in material substance. God is not heat, energy, and or mass that can be measured or the universe which can be recorded or studied in detail under a microscope (fragments such as fossils or rocks, for example).

Thomas Aquinas put it beautifully, “the sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum”. It reminds me of the childhood puzzle that if a man has to cover a distance (insert any length of travel) and runs half-way everyday, when will he finish? The answer is that he will never finish because he travels half the length everyday. The same with the origins of the universe. You must believe of a starting point, whether or not you believe it came into existence without the effort of a celestial being is another question.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Who Created God??

If God can be created by some magically process(which nobody has defined thus far, in thousands of years of religious history in any compelling way), why we cannot have multi-verses and or particles created by chance? - Story from there on in Science is progression from simple to complex, means first we had sub-atomic particles before atomic particles, then atoms, molecules and organic chemistry before we reach replicating molecules...In nature we had yet to discover, complex things first before the simple ones...God is the most complex thing in all realms or existence, he must be made of some stuff/blog(like we have mass and matter), how he become an intelligent being?? Through what process, in what env?? - Be specific about response, no spiritual mambo jambo


And Science has not closed the chapter of "Origin of Things", this is still one of the most important question in all Sciences, there is a reason we spend 10s of billions to build LHC, the most complex machine ever created by our species...Whole idea to create a tiny fraction of singularities such as Big Bang to discover more secrets of Cosmos....


Its not like God or Allah of Quran does not like to reason on reality or Science. First Argument Muhammad had about God was a Scientific one, that there is only one God, he tried to give Scientific and logical reasons as to why many Gods does not make sense compare to one God, based on the primitive knowledge at that time...But like Kings of that time, whenever he did not had answers, he ends with "God knows best, don't question his wisdom"... This argument of One Vs Many Gods was main bone of contention for early Islam, its not some spiritual(I don't know what the means) argument but a physical or scientific one


BTW: I live in US, not that it matters for what we are arguing about...

This wasnt one sentence but I assume you're one question, 'Who created God'?

Nobody, he was the first. Dont think in terms of laws of the universe, he is beyond that.

Try again?

 

[yasir]

This wasnt one sentence but I assume you're one question, 'Who created God'?

Nobody, he was the first. Dont think in terms of laws of the universe, he is beyond that.

Try again?

He maybe beyond Universe but not beyond logic/rationality...If this "Nobody" is origin of God, than it can be origin of uni or multi verse...This "Nobody" cannot be more sophisticate that God, otherwise God came from another higher God(where this hierarchy of God ends )...If sophisticate being like God can come from "Unsophisticated" nothing, then why not universe? - "God first" assumption, is rationally flawed

 

[yasir]

Except the underlying question surrounding this thread and my post was, who created the universe? God or nothing?

There is no equation that can measure the probability of God because it is not something definable in material substance. God is not heat, energy, and or mass that can be measured or the universe which can be recorded or studied in detail under a microscope (fragments such as fossils or rocks, for example).

Thomas Aquinas put it beautifully, “the sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum”. It reminds me of the childhood puzzle that if a man has to cover a distance (insert any length of travel) and runs half-way everyday, when will he finish? The answer is that he will never finish because he travels half the length everyday. The same with the origins of the universe. You must believe of a starting point, whether or not you believe it came into existence without the effort of a celestial being is another question.

See my post #132 above, God is not beyond logic or rationality, no matter where he lives..."God First" is flawed logic, I would love to hear other side of the argument

 

[yasir]

The thing is Allah, God or Jehovah at least from an Islamic point of view is based on blind faith.

Even Quran is for those who "believe in the unseen".

If you don't believe in the unseen, it's not likely you will ever believe in God.

Well, then Quran is not for rational beings, more for emotional fools...Believing without demanding evidence is fundamental flaw in all religions and faith, that is the main reason for clash of Science and religion. Either you are going to value evidence or submit to higher authority...Flirting with both is worse, its like Ratification in education, you have degree but no useful knowledge...

The good news for Muslims is he exists.

The bad news for you is, eventually, you will find out he exists.

Your Good news is like Trump Nama, only baseless statements, Most of religious text is just that, vague statements...All faithfuls can do is try to latch on to somebody else work, "oh, My book has said about it 1400 years ago, but we could not decode it, Big Bang, Evolution, Universe and what not" :

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Well, then Quran is not for rational beings, more for emotional fools...

I would argue the opposite. Emotional beings keep insisting on beliving only what their eyes can see or cannot see.

As I said earlier, the world was believed to be flat before it was proven that if you walk end to end you will not fall off the earth.

And thousands died beliving that because they had NO EVIDENCE AT THAT TIME.

Do you see the flaw with your thinking? You are asking for evidence, when the things that cannot be seen might actually exist but our knowledge is too young or little for us to prove it.

Believing without demanding evidence is fundamental flaw in all religions and faith, that is the main reason for clash of Science and religion. Either you are going to value evidence or submit to higher authority...Flirting with both is worse, its like Ratification in education, you have degree but no useful knowledge...

It is not a flaw, rather a fundamental part of religion and its beliefs.

"Believing in the unseen" is part of faith.

When you were a baby, didn't you have faith you would be fed when you were hungry? Your mother will always be there for you even if you don't see her? Your father will catch you even if he throws you up in the air?

Ironically, this belief or faith is etched in every part of our life. I don't know what my result will be but if I work hard I have faith i WILL Pass. If I go for a job interview, I don't know what's going to happen but I have faith if I give a good interview I will eventually get the job.

You have faith in everything but God or Allah.

Why?

Because were he to exist, you cannot answer questions that your mind conceives like perhaps why is there so much poverty or injustice in the world etc etc.

That is the problem with human beings. They believe they know more than anyone else EVEN WHEN ITS PROVEN their theories keep on replacing old theories which were ALSO CONSIDERED INFALLIBLE.

Coming to science, religion and science are not at war for me.

Science is a tool used to propagate knowlege. And even Islam emphasizes the attainment of that knowledge by asking Muslims openly to seek knowledge however you may seek it.

Science is a wonderful thing. It can cure, heal, develop and ease the quality of life and give us countless blessings.

But all cure, all healing, all developement and all life is finally in the hands of Allah.

Think of it as a Master Creator giving us the toolsl like iron, lead, diamond and all metals and minerals and giving us the brain to use those tools. And giving us the Science to help us achieve betterness and blessing.

Why is it so hard to understand there is someone out there?

Your Good news is like Trump Nama, only baseless statements,

.

Lets be honest it's not my good news.

It's good news from Allah for all Muslims.

And the good news really is "Allah has given you the freedom to disbelive him and given you the 60 odd years of life to disbelieve in what is true.

If you think those 60 years are all we have, then let's just wait for the time.

Most of religious text is just that, vague statements...All faithfuls can do is try to latch on to somebody else work, "oh, My book has said about it 1400 years ago, but we could not decode it, Big Bang, Evolution, Universe and what not" :

You might be skeptical of faith but when you were a baby you were probably more faithful than you are now.

How arrogant we become as adults.

Alas!

 

[RogerBao]

"What" is God? A different take on the concept of God

 

[axis]

God can't be immoral, and morality is decided by God. There is no absolute morality in this world and Atheists are seeking their subjective morality, which makes them more susceptible to immoral acts, like rape, murder, theft.. just because there is no one to stop them.

 

[Pakpak]

God can't be immoral, and morality is decided by God. There is no absolute morality in this world and Atheists are seeking their subjective morality, which makes them more susceptible to immoral acts, like rape, murder, theft.. just because there is no one to stop them.

So by your definition places like Sweden, Denmark, Norway should be overrunning with rape, theft and murder. Heck the majority of the Westernised world where most people are atheists. Are they?

 

[axis]

So by your definition places like Sweden, Denmark, Norway should be overrunning with rape, theft and murder. Heck the majority of the Westernised world where most people are atheists. Are they?

I didn't say that brother. I only said it makes their morality subjective. Logically the Atheists can't prove rape and murder are wrong. That's where God helps the people of faith, or believers.

 

[Pakpak]

I didn't say that brother. I only said it makes their morality subjective. Logically the Atheists can't prove rape and murder are wrong. That's where God helps the people of faith, or believers.

No, you said atheists are more susceptible to rape, theft and murder. I can quote you if you like: ''which makes them more susceptible to immoral acts, like rape, murder, theft.. just because there is no one to stop them.'' So if they are more susceptible to murder, rape and theft then places like Sweden, Norway, Denmark should be teeming with such crimes. So, are they?

 

[axis]

No, you said atheists are more susceptible to rape, theft and murder. I can quote you if you like: ''which makes them more susceptible to immoral acts, like rape, murder, theft.. just because there is no one to stop them.'' So if they are more susceptible to murder, rape and theft then places like Sweden, Norway, Denmark should be teeming with such crimes. So, are they?

Why didn't I get any notification for this quoted comment from yours ? Is there any setting I need to do on PP to help me get notifications ?

Yes, it makes them more susceptible, but it doesn't mean they go around raping and murdering. They just can't prove themselves that rape and murder are wrong if they argue logically.

 

[troodon]

Why didn't I get any notification for this quoted comment from yours ? Is there any setting I need to do on PP to help me get notifications ?

Yes, it makes them more susceptible, but it doesn't mean they go around raping and murdering. They just can't prove themselves that rape and murder are wrong if they argue logically.

You do not need a magic book from heavens to tell you that rape and murder are wrong

Not hurting your neighbors, loving neighbors are all basic things which is taught by all religions. Even Godless religions like Buddhism tells the same.

 

[axis]

You do not need a magic book from heavens to tell you that rape and murder are wrong

Not hurting your neighbors, loving neighbors are all basic things which is taught by all religions. Even Godless religions like Buddhism tells the same.

No, rape and murder are not inherently or logically wrong. Morality is a learned concept, and only God has the final authority as God is supposed to be perfect and logical.

Imperfect human morality is subjective, and there is no logical reason why rape and murder is wrong. In fact, our society rejoices in murdering other people, who are our enemies.

In fact, murder and rape come naturally to humans, and only a restraint can make them not go for it.

 

[Pakpak]

No, rape and murder are not inherently or logically wrong. Morality is a learned concept, and only God has the final authority as God is supposed to be perfect and logical.

Imperfect human morality is subjective, and there is no logical reason why rape and murder is wrong. In fact, our society rejoices in murdering other people, who are our enemies.

In fact, murder and rape come naturally to humans, and only a restraint can make them not go for it.

You said atheists are more prone to crimes. I named you three very atheist nations and then asked you is such crime rampant there?

A simple yes or no would suffice.

 

[Chrish]

I do believe in higher power. Now is this higher power the same way portrayed in religious books? I don’t know.

 

[axis]

Society is built for survival, not to uphold morals. Even the society of thieves or pirates will not rape or murder among their own society. The doctrine is not based on morals, but strategy to survive, and keep the weak among them safe.

Atheists are not fools.

If Islamic ideology encourages terror attacks, it is fair to say Muslims are more prone to commit terror attacks, which I don't agree.

 

[Pakpak]

Society is built for survival, not to uphold morals. Even the society of thieves or pirates will not rape or murder among their own society. The doctrine is not based on morals, but strategy to survive, and keep the weak among them safe.

Atheists are not fools.

If Islamic ideology encourages terror attacks, it is fair to say Muslims are more prone to commit terror attacks, which I don't agree.

Pirates regularly killed their own for sport, what are you on about? Society is built on morals, maybe that's why you can't name a single atheist country where rape and murder victims are let off scot-free. Unlike certain Muslims countries, where you can kill someone but as long as the family gets some blood all is dandy and the murderer is free to kill again. How is that for morals?

So despite saying atheists are potential rapists (a highly inflammatory statement akin to me saying Muslims are more prone to being terrorists) you can't name a single atheist country where such crimes are rampant. Either those societies are hiding mass rapes and murders or your statement about them being more susceptible to such crimes is drivel. Moving past your word salad I'd humbly go with the latter.

 

[axis]

Pirates regularly killed their own for sport, what are you on about? Society is built on morals, maybe that's why you can't name a single atheist country where rape and murder victims are let off scot-free. Unlike certain Muslims countries, where you can kill someone but as long as the family gets some blood all is dandy and the murderer is free to kill again. How is that for morals?

So despite saying atheists are potential rapists (a highly inflammatory statement akin to me saying Muslims are more prone to being terrorists) you can't name a single atheist country where such crimes are rampant. Either those societies are hiding mass rapes and murders or your statement about them being more susceptible to such crimes is drivel. Moving past your word salad I'd humbly go with the latter.

Pirates regularly kill their own for sport, but it is not considered good to kill for fun there as well, because the numbers will go down. No society can survive if people just murder and rape for fun without restraint.

The laws are created so that society can survive. These Atheist countries have laws which make their society survive better and live a better life in this world.

It, however, doesn't prove rape and murder are logically wrong on moral basis. They are just wrong because allowing these acts unchecked, will lead to the destruction of society.

I never called Atheists as "potential" rapists. I just called them more susceptible to fall in this act because they have one less support system, i.e. Allah to tell them it's wrong.

 

[Pakpak]

Pirates regularly kill their own for sport, but it is not considered good to kill for fun there as well, because the numbers will go down. No society can survive if people just murder and rape for fun without restraint.

The laws are created so that society can survive. These Atheist countries have laws which make their society survive better and live a better life in this world.

It, however, doesn't prove rape and murder are logically wrong on moral basis. They are just wrong because allowing these acts unchecked, will lead to the destruction of society.

I never called Atheists as "potential" rapists. I just called them more susceptible to fall in this act because they have one less support system, i.e. Allah to tell them it's wrong.

Er, anything that leads to the destruction of a sociery is wrong and immoral. Hence the destruction part. Hence why such laws are created. You're getting trapped in your own words. I did law, specifically 3 years of criminal law. The law is worded to protect victims, protect children, protect the weak and innocent without any say so from another being.

You did call them potential rapists, anyone who is susceptible to being something is potentially that thing under certain conditions. If someone is susceptible to getting heart disease due to family history then they are a potential candidate for a heart patient. Atleast be man enough to not track back once your bigoted opinions are laid out bare.

Re: 'support system' is already proven wrong. In Muslim nations you can murder someone but get away with it as long as you pay the family blood money, and then you can freely kill again. How is that for morals?

Your posts are a disgrace and bigoted. I disagree with [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] on this very topic, but atleast he and others debate here without calling innocent people potential rapists. You want to debate, look at his posts. You're a great advert for religion and one of the many reasons why many of us initially turned away from religion.

Till then another idiot on my ignore list.

 

[troodon]

No, rape and murder are not inherently or logically wrong. Morality is a learned concept, and only God has the final authority as God is supposed to be perfect and logical.

Imperfect human morality is subjective, and there is no logical reason why rape and murder is wrong. In fact, our society rejoices in murdering other people, who are our enemies.

In fact, murder and rape come naturally to humans, and only a restraint can make them not go for it.

Rape and Murder are inherently wrong because you are hurting a fellow human in the process which causes them pain and suffering. I don't know how you say it is not logically wrong.

You said God is perfect. Which means God cannot fail. As we know God had to send many prophets to give morals to humans.
God sent Moses - He failed to deliver the desired results.
God sent Jesus - Again failed miserably. No need to explain that.
God sent Gabrial to talk to Prophet Mohamed - Even he failed to get the desired results.

So do not tell me God is perfect. If he was, then we would not be seeing all the sufferings created by Humans. Also God's creation is not perfect. Land slides, Earth Quakes, Volcano Eruptions, Tsunamis... are all associated with the imperfect design of God while creating Earth.

Murder and Rape are natural to not only humans. But all animals. You look at animal kingdom, its all about power, holding on to land and taking over femals harems.... All the things that humans do. Just shows that we are just another animal on Earth (though intelligent one).

Restraint does not need to come from Religious Texts. We know how many religious folks are murderers, rapists and land conquerors (all the while butchering many innocents). Restraint can come from knowing the truth and how to organize society. We can set up human laws and prohibit things that harm others.

 

[axis]

Er, anything that leads to the destruction of a sociery is wrong and immoral. Hence the destruction part. Hence why such laws are created. You're getting trapped in your own words. I did law, specifically 3 years of criminal law. The law is worded to protect victims, protect children, protect the weak and innocent without any say so from another being.

You did call them potential rapists, anyone who is susceptible to being something is potentially that thing under certain conditions. If someone is susceptible to getting heart disease due to family history then they are a potential candidate for a heart patient. Atleast be man enough to not track back once your bigoted opinions are laid out bare.

Re: 'support system' is already proven wrong. In Muslim nations you can murder someone but get away with it as long as you pay the family blood money, and then you can freely kill again. How is that for morals?

Your posts are a disgrace and bigoted. I disagree with [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] on this very topic, but atleast he and others debate here without calling innocent people potential rapists. You want to debate, look at his posts. You're a great advert for religion and one of the many reasons why many of us initially turned away from religion.

Till then another idiot on my ignore list.

When I call them susceptible, I was only talking in the context of logical morality. People are not logical. It doesn't mean Atheists are going to rape or murder, they have been taught it is wrong to do these acts.

I think the confusion arises in our discussion because our contexts are different. When I am claiming Atheists don't have objective morality, I am not calling them potential rapists.

They are not potential rapists due to multiple reasons, one of them being the way their parents taught them or the society expects them to be.

When we talk about objective morality, Atheists have nothing to fall back on, as they don't believe in an objective, perfect, logical entity which defines morals.

Do I make myself clearer now ?

 

[axis]

Rape and Murder are inherently wrong because you are hurting a fellow human in the process which causes them pain and suffering. I don't know how you say it is not logically wrong.

You said God is perfect. Which means God cannot fail. As we know God had to send many prophets to give morals to humans.
God sent Moses - He failed to deliver the desired results.
God sent Jesus - Again failed miserably. No need to explain that.
God sent Gabrial to talk to Prophet Mohamed - Even he failed to get the desired results.

So do not tell me God is perfect. If he was, then we would not be seeing all the sufferings created by Humans. Also God's creation is not perfect. Land slides, Earth Quakes, Volcano Eruptions, Tsunamis... are all associated with the imperfect design of God while creating Earth.

Murder and Rape are natural to not only humans. But all animals. You look at animal kingdom, its all about power, holding on to land and taking over femals harems.... All the things that humans do. Just shows that we are just another animal on Earth (though intelligent one).

Restraint does not need to come from Religious Texts. We know how many religious folks are murderers, rapists and land conquerors (all the while butchering many innocents). Restraint can come from knowing the truth and how to organize society. We can set up human laws and prohibit things that harm others.

{Rape and Murder are inherently wrong because you are hurting a fellow human in the process which causes them pain and suffering. I don't know how you say it is not logically wrong.}

Hurting a fellow human doesn't make anything inherently wrong. If it were so, we would not kill our enemies and celebrate it.

{You said God is perfect. Which means God cannot fail. As we know God had to send many prophets to give morals to humans.
God sent Moses - He failed to deliver the desired results.
God sent Jesus - Again failed miserably. No need to explain that.
God sent Gabrial to talk to Prophet Mohamed - Even he failed to get the desired results.

So do not tell me God is perfect. If he was, then we would not be seeing all the sufferings created by Humans. Also God's creation is not perfect. Land slides, Earth Quakes, Volcano Eruptions, Tsunamis... are all associated with the imperfect design of God while creating Earth.
}

How do these prove that desired results were not achieved? God's purpose in sending the Prophets was to make the humanity receive the message. That's all.


{
Murder and Rape are natural to not only humans. But all animals. You look at animal kingdom, its all about power, holding on to land and taking over femals harems.... All the things that humans do. Just shows that we are just another animal on Earth (though intelligent one).
}

That's partially correct. I agree.

{
Restraint does not need to come from Religious Texts. We know how many religious folks are murderers, rapists and land conquerors (all the while butchering many innocents). Restraint can come from knowing the truth and how to organize society. We can set up human laws and prohibit things that harm others.
}

Religious folks can be murderers/rapists but they can't justify it using the religion.

 

[troodon]

{Rape and Murder are inherently wrong because you are hurting a fellow human in the process which causes them pain and suffering. I don't know how you say it is not logically wrong.}

Hurting a fellow human doesn't make anything inherently wrong. If it were so, we would not kill our enemies and celebrate it.

Killing a fellow human (be it enemy or stranger is still wrong).

{You said God is perfect. Which means God cannot fail. As we know God had to send many prophets to give morals to humans.
God sent Moses - He failed to deliver the desired results.
God sent Jesus - Again failed miserably. No need to explain that.
God sent Gabrial to talk to Prophet Mohamed - Even he failed to get the desired results.

So do not tell me God is perfect. If he was, then we would not be seeing all the sufferings created by Humans. Also God's creation is not perfect. Land slides, Earth Quakes, Volcano Eruptions, Tsunamis... are all associated with the imperfect design of God while creating Earth.
}

How do these prove that desired results were not achieved? God's purpose in sending the Prophets was to make the humanity receive the message. That's all.

The desired results were not achieved and God failed. If God did not fail, he did not have to send Jesus and later on Mohammed to reform again. Making 2nd and 3rd attempts itself is a proof that God realized that both Jesus and Moses miserably failed. Even with Islam, you see how the situaiton. Even with in Muslims, the most perfect book is not agreed upon by many falks and you see so many schools of thoughts, sects etc..
{
Murder and Rape are natural to not only humans. But all animals. You look at animal kingdom, its all about power, holding on to land and taking over femals harems.... All the things that humans do. Just shows that we are just another animal on Earth (though intelligent one).
}

That's partially correct. I agree.

{
Restraint does not need to come from Religious Texts. We know how many religious folks are murderers, rapists and land conquerors (all the while butchering many innocents). Restraint can come from knowing the truth and how to organize society. We can set up human laws and prohibit things that harm others.
}

Religious folks can be murderers/rapists but they can't justify it using the religion.

Religious folks always invoke Religious Texts when doing their destruction and killing. If 10 persons are able to deduce 10 different things looking at the same verse, it means the miracle book has failed its purpose and the person who brought the book to humans as well as the creator of the book has failed too.

My answers in bold.

 

[axis]

My answers in bold.

{Killing a fellow human (be it enemy or stranger is still wrong).}

But we all do it, in wars, or legal killing. If it is wrong, nobody is moral. Also, why did you limit it to humans ? Who gets to decide if killing humans is wrong, but killing animals is not ?

{Religious folks always invoke Religious Texts when doing their destruction and killing. If 10 persons are able to deduce 10 different things looking at the same verse, it means the miracle book has failed its purpose and the person who brought the book to humans as well as the creator of the book has failed too.
}

We haven't yet established killing is logically immoral. Please read my previous statement.

 

[troodon]

{Killing a fellow human (be it enemy or stranger is still wrong).}

But we all do it, in wars, or legal killing. If it is wrong, nobody is moral. Also, why did you limit it to humans ? Who gets to decide if killing humans is wrong, but killing animals is not ?

{Religious folks always invoke Religious Texts when doing their destruction and killing. If 10 persons are able to deduce 10 different things looking at the same verse, it means the miracle book has failed its purpose and the person who brought the book to humans as well as the creator of the book has failed too.
}

We haven't yet established killing is logically immoral. Please read my previous statement.

Just because we all kill does not make it right. Its the human nature and God made imperfect humans and animals. Animals kill too. Nature has carnivore animals. So they kill herbivores. Herbivores eat grass. Its food chain. But if you kill animal for sport or to appease God, then you are murdering an animal just to appease your God. Killing an animal is wrong if you have alternate food sources are available.


Holy book verses have been used from time immemorial to justify killing and land grabbing and making slaves out of conquered people. You cannot deny that.

 

[axis]

Just because we all kill does not make it right. Its the human nature and God made imperfect humans and animals. Animals kill too. Nature has carnivore animals. So they kill herbivores. Herbivores eat grass. Its food chain. But if you kill animal for sport or to appease God, then you are murdering an animal just to appease your God. Killing an animal is wrong if you have alternate food sources are available.


Holy book verses have been used from time immemorial to justify killing and land grabbing and making slaves out of conquered people. You cannot deny that.

According to your statement "Killing an animal is wrong if you have alternate food sources are available.", you are claiming almost the whole world population to be immoral, as majority of the world population is non-vegetarian and despite having other sources available, have no problem in killing animals.

If you say that the whole world is in fact immoral and kills for taste, it is a different matter, and I am not denying your point. I am just interested in understanding your claim.

 

[yasir]

"What" is God? A different take on the concept of God

I like the way he explains things, more casual and humorous about it, rather than serious and holly

I am not sure about giving too much weightage to feeling/experience rather than more concrete evidence as guiding principle as to what is reality... I have fundamental issue with principles of spirituality, they work like glorified drug rather than dealing with complex issues... Which works in many personal situations and dealing with personal problems but cannot be applied to demystify reality. You cannot uncover reality just by spirituality, since it’s about feeling rather than hard evidence.

One of the struggle human have is that we are mix of emotions and rationality. Your emotions and feeling confuse what is real, that’s why you have to constantly validate reality via data/evidence...Jazbaat key row may bahay nahieen Jaya ja sakta

 

[RogerBao]

God can't be immoral, and morality is decided by God. There is no absolute morality in this world and Atheists are seeking their subjective morality, which makes them more susceptible to immoral acts, like rape, murder, theft.. just because there is no one to stop them.

The topic here is whether one believes in God in the first place, before we even discuss about God’s law & morality etc. I strongly feel in my heart the possibility of a higher intelligence (not sure how to define it) i.e God/ Super Consciousness/ Creator etc. I think we can’t prove God exist nor can we disapprove it. Debate whether God exist or not is futile as it is in the realm of belief and the unseen. On the other hand when one claim’s that there is a book in his hand & this book was sent down by God, we CAN (only) conclusively debate whether the “God” of that Book is the same one who created us/universe because the parameters are defined & set. So what Book are you referring to here?

Religion & God must go together only in Abrahamic faiths , in Eastern religions it is not necessary. So morality as propounded by religions like Buddhism/Jainism etc are man made too (at least they admit to it). As for the claim for religion/God as the source of morality, please remember that since time immemorial they were sages eg. in ancient China, India, Babylonia etc who established moral codes (mostly valid till now) in their society, yet did not claim any religious or divine intervention.

My take is that humans are born with inherent goodness. We as individual human beings are naturally guided by the “Golden Rule” of not wanting to do to others what we do not want others to do unto us. Just take the instance of your FIRST experience of watching an animal being slaughtered, it usually disturbs you. Why? Think about it. If you believe it is God who created you & that too in His image, surely goodness is within us to some extent. Surely it can’t be that God created us devoid of any moral compass literally just a biological machine then waited for thousands of years to send his missionaries to install his moral code software one by one!! ..No?

 

[axis]

The topic here is whether one believes in God in the first place, before we even discuss about God’s law & morality etc. I strongly feel in my heart the possibility of a higher intelligence (not sure how to define it) i.e God/ Super Consciousness/ Creator etc. I think we can’t prove God exist nor can we disapprove it. Debate whether God exist or not is futile as it is in the realm of belief and the unseen. On the other hand when one claim’s that there is a book in his hand & this book was sent down by God, we CAN (only) conclusively debate whether the “God” of that Book is the same one who created us/universe because the parameters are defined & set. So what Book are you referring to here?

Religion & God must go together only in Abrahamic faiths , in Eastern religions it is not necessary. So morality as propounded by religions like Buddhism/Jainism etc are man made too (at least they admit to it). As for the claim for religion/God as the source of morality, please remember that since time immemorial they were sages eg. in ancient China, India, Babylonia etc who established moral codes (mostly valid till now) in their society, yet did not claim any religious or divine intervention.

My take is that humans are born with inherent goodness. We as individual human beings are naturally guided by the “Golden Rule” of not wanting to do to others what we do not want others to do unto us. Just take the instance of your FIRST experience of watching an animal being slaughtered, it usually disturbs you. Why? Think about it. If you believe it is God who created you & that too in His image, surely goodness is within us to some extent. Surely it can’t be that God created us devoid of any moral compass literally just a biological machine then waited for thousands of years to send his missionaries to install his moral code software one by one!! ..No?

Do you mean to say we humans are naturally born with a distaste for non-vegetarianism ?

 

[RogerBao]

Do you mean to say we humans are naturally born with a distaste for non-vegetarianism ?

I'm just implying perhaps we abhor violence/blood naturally and it takes social conditoning to accept it as norm. Just like we don't take our kids for a slughterhouse visit. Now, that's not the point here. You keep talking about God's law. Did God talk to you & gave them? If no, where did you get them? Someone gave you a book and said so & now you are repeating that to us? The book has a name?